Cryptic would rather be a "McMMO". Where they take their base engine and spin out an MMO based on a property through lots of nasty hackery. Then, once they determine it's "done", they don't touch it anymore or turn it over to a "maintenance team" who has just enough rights to fiddle, but can't really expand the game.
Part of the problem is how Cryptic builds systems. There are problems with growing games organically over time. And Cryptic's engine has them all. Screwy, nonstandard UIs, diverse systems which start as hacks and never really get a finishing pass, or even a true development pass (Nemesis system, I'm lookin' at you).
It's like there's a big meeting and a dev goes "I have this great idea. Here's a technical mockup."
And someone goes "Yeah. Let's fly with that."
The dev goes, wait, this is just a hack to show you what we wanna do. Are we going to see some programming time to make a neat tie-in to the system?
Does it work right now?
Yeah...ish.
GOOD ENOUGH! SHIP IT!
And these nasty hacks about in the games. Piling one atop another. So there's very good reasons why talking about doing major work or expansion in Cryptic games (especially on specialty subsystems) causes the maintenance teams to lock themselves into a cold, dark room, curl up in a fetal position, soil themselves and give longing consideration to self-trepanation with a belt sander.
Basically, PWE isn't going to put forth the effort for a second pass at Champions Online.
And more, the primary CO game isn't really in any shape to have anything more than cursory, cosmetic work done to it without MAJOR, probably irreparable-to-PWE systems breakage.
And, even if PWE WAS, they'd likely follow the Neverwinter model. Free-to-play and then cut your throat in the cash shop. (Nickeled and dimed to death? You WISH! $10'ed and $20'd to death.)
Hate to be a buzzkill, just, that's how I see it. And the only ones who'll likely be able to tell if I'm right are Cryptic North or someone who's gone diving the HOGG files.
Most MMO don't release sequels they just update the one they have. To be honest coming out with a "2" is a jerk move because it makes you buy all new stuff.
Most MMO don't release sequels they just update the one they have. To be honest coming out with a "2" is a jerk move because it makes you buy all new stuff.
Perfect World actually made a sequel to one of their own MMOs - see Battle of the Immortals and War of the Immortals.
Those folks also tend to ignore that when WoW updates, even current subscribers have to lay out sixty bucks or so for the new shinies - and there's no real F2P option (and even their limited version is of fairly recent vintage). Meanwhile, CO players threatened to riot when there was discussion of making VB a paid expansion (at a more likely rate of $20, as I recall...).
The upshot is, CO is getting its new stuff more slowly because this game isn't exactly a cash cow. Nobody here is willing to pay $50 US for what would amount to the next tier of gear (the price of the STO Dyson Ship three-pack for one faction; triple that if you want the three-pack for all three factions). On the other tentacle, we don't seem to be going away, either; there's just enough profit to keep us above the bottom line.
Not at all. Many subscription mmos like wow and coh back in the day had free updates, dark astoria's revamp, that was in the cost of the subscription. the 4 zones of Pretoria, those were part of a 30 dollar expansion pack, but the 5th zone, that was free with the regular subscription. so no, not all expansions are cost in subscription mmos. now freemos seem to be a lot worse on content, and co is about in line with that as giving very little even for those who are subscribed.
Perfect World actually made a sequel to one of their own MMOs - see Battle of the Immortals and War of the Immortals.
Which i always thought was funny because if you look at the explanation section for the games, the class graphics and even most of the classes are exactly the same. Until tt explained that they were a sequel, i thought it was a naming thing like queens blade/scarlet blade. is that game actually popular anywhere? it looks kind of low quality.
Which i always thought was funny because if you look at the explanation section for the games, the class graphics and even most of the classes are exactly the same. Until tt explained that they were a sequel, i thought it was a naming thing like queens blade/scarlet blade. is that game actually popular anywhere? it looks kind of low quality.
Probably not since PoE/Marvel Heroes/D3. It kind of filled that gap before that, since there was a bit of a drought in isometric ARPG types.
Rian, I played Wow for some time - first signed up shortly after the Burning Crusade launched, pre-ordered the WotLK expansion, watched the Cataclysm. Then I realized that if I wanted to see more of the Cataclysm than a few landscape changes, I'd need to shell out yet another sixty bucks, on top of the hundreds I'd already spent on the game, the expansion, and subscription fees over the years. That was when I left WoW altogether - I could have bought an LTS in CO at launch for what I wound up spending there, with a huge chunk of change left over to buy Zen!
WoW has never had a free expansion; the closest they came was when they finally made the basic game a free download. Oh, and that so-called "F2P" thing they have, where they shut you down just as you're getting to the point that you're allowed to ride a pony...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Rian, I played Wow for some time - first signed up shortly after the Burning Crusade launched, pre-ordered the WotLK expansion, watched the Cataclysm. Then I realized that if I wanted to see more of the Cataclysm than a few landscape changes, I'd need to shell out yet another sixty bucks, on top of the hundreds I'd already spent on the game, the expansion, and subscription fees over the years. That was when I left WoW altogether - I could have bought an LTS in CO at launch for what I wound up spending there, with a huge chunk of change left over to buy Zen!
WoW has never had a free expansion; the closest they came was when they finally made the basic game a free download. Oh, and that so-called "F2P" thing they have, where they shut you down just as you're getting to the point that you're allowed to ride a pony...
I only played wow for about a month before the ancient graphics drove me off, but i thought they periodically added new areas that opened to players, like back when they opened up a new troll area. or the new oggrimmar raid. with the guy with the logs on his shoulders As i said, coh was the mmo that i played the most, but we got about 3 free expansions every year, some were small, ones like issue 17. The smaller ones would be comparable to what co put out last year..all together. and then there were others where we got new zones, like croatoa, striga island and the shadow shard or revamps of existing zones that totally changed their look and mechanics(rikti war zone, faultline and especially dark astoria.) so yeah, none of those were dependent on buying an expansion, they were covered by subscription. I also recall Star wars galaxies content patches bringing in new areas and weapons, end even phantasy star uinverse added some new zones, though it took forever for the us to get them.
I thought the Western versions never got anything really new from PSU. Everything was already on the AoTI disc, just blocked off. Japan did get new zones though, as in actual new downloaded tilesets, powers and weapon skins, but no new enemies.
You have a very odd understanding of how game development works.
People are hired, quit, move between projects/companies CONSTANTLY. Dan going to a new project is not some omen of abandonment. Champions has it's own team. That team is the size it is because that's how much Champs brings in. If it were a bigger game, it would have a bigger team. People aren't removed from the team to punish players, the team is scaled to the revenue being generated.
In addition, you say that CO is tapped to fill out the STO & NW projects. . . ok, sure. In that anyone who works at any company long enough is going to work on multiple projects, and therefore WILL be removed from their previous projects. Keep in mind that City Of got tapped when we started making Champions (well, Marvel). And STO/NW people will be taken off to new projects as those games go through their natural life cycle. Just as those games will lose people to help build further games.
Cryptic North is alive and well. And while they're a small team, they've been doing a fantastic job with new stuff: Alerts, Vehicles, Auras, Costumes, Events, etc.
Highlights mine. Unfortunately this game isnt doing well enough to have more than a small dev team. And unfortunately we have nothing more to look forward to than a new event every now and then, or a new costume, or a bug fix. This game will not be getting any major new content anymore. It is past its prime earning potential, and is now only bringing in enough to justify keeping the servers up, but there is no way to know how long that will last.
1: The first time someone says, 'Hey you know what would be SO FUNNY?' or mentions 'parody'- fire them, then pelt them with fist-sized rocks once they leave the building. Get rid of this stupid, silly nonsense. Foxbat is enough, the entire game shouldn't look like it was written for the standard he sets.
2: Freeform should not be a thing like it is now. Replicate CoX's power system to a degree, but allow players to have 'cosmetic' control over the powers. If you can solo 99% of a game with your build, it's not a testament to your skills, but to the game's failure.
3: Stick with the source material. If you're going to interpret from Champions Pen and Paper- at least be faithful to it. I personally think it sucks, but the worst part is that CO changed most of it, butchered other parts, and took their entire selection from the worst parts of the books.
4: Don't do vehicles. Period. if you're not going to make expansive maps that could benefit from fast travel, there's no reason to make them. And if you DO make them, they should be customizable. Otherwise, just DON'T.
5: Steamline to tailor to expand on it. Work in layers: Skin, tights, armor, accessories. Three layers of 'costuming' similar to what we have, and all the weapons and logos and capes and what-have-you can be tacked onto those layers. Clipping is OUR concern, not yours.
6: Make the journey of the hero work its way up. There is no reason any superhero should start fighting street thugs, then hi-tech terrorists, then giant monsters, then vampires and voodoo people. It should feel like a logical progression of a hero, not a roller coaster of powerful foes back down to worthless mooks.
7: If the Nemesis system is going to be the same-old story no matter what you create, then don't even bother at all. If you can make it a 'special' story for certain 'types' of villains with real choices and consequences? Fine. Otherwise just don't make it at all, it's a waste of time.
8: Make a villain side. Just do it. With a more streamlined power system, a better PvP system- 'Put up or Shut up' rules are in effect. People are making villains anyway, you might as well make them feel right at home.
9: Keep the game's focus about Western Superheroes and western comics. If you want to make a fantasy or anime game on the side, do so and appease that fanbase. Don't shove aside people who came to this game because of the Western Superhero/Comic theme to appease other genres. This whole 'something for everyone' thing doesn't work, you can't make everyone happy. You can only appease on group while pissing on another.
10. Don't do the chat ban system like it is now. Ever. Again. Worst idea in gaming since the Power Glove.
The bean-counters at most studios would likely squash an idea for another Superhero-themed MMORPG, considering the failure rate within this genre lately. As far as I know, the only superhero game doing reasonably well is Marvel Heroes, which is an ARPG, not an MMORPG.
I don't think it's the genre that's causing the problem. Though the genre may never be as big as sword & fantasy when it comes to MMOs.
I do think a real Marvel MMORPG would do real well and with Disney owning Marvel, I am a bit surprised it's not out there
I don't think it's the genre that's causing the problem. Though the genre may never be as big as sword & fantasy when it comes to MMOs.
I do think a real Marvel MMORPG would do real well and with Disney owning Marvel, I am a bit surprised it's not out there
No a Marvel MMO would not do well because Marvel absolutely refuses to let people create their own personal heroes in their property. This is why when Cryptic originally had the game you were going to have to be one of the Marvel line up and this is why Marvel Heroes and Super Hero Squad you have to pick one of the Marvel line up.
But in the end would it have mattered? Just like DCUO the end result even if you could create your own character, all you would be doing is building powers based on what already existed in Marvel's locker. Branching out would have been difficult based on that minimum.
DCUO is also doing quite well, but that's thanks to the PS3 tie in.
No a Marvel MMO would not do well because Marvel absolutely refuses to let people create their own personal heroes in their property. This is why when Cryptic originally had the game you were going to have to be one of the Marvel line up and this is why Marvel Heroes and Super Hero Squad you have to pick one of the Marvel line up.
Well, that is... unless you're a writer shoehorning in a Mary Sue character with the same name as another character....
But in the end would it have mattered? Just like DCUO the end result even if you could create your own character, all you would be doing is building powers based on what already existed in Marvel's locker. Branching out would have been difficult based on that minimum.
Couldn't agree with you more, here... though Marvel does have a more balanced hero lineup, to a degree.
:biggrin: I have to agree, the reason I stop being a gold member last year ( had been gold member since launch ). was lack of real content, don't care about speeders, occasional new alerts. I was looking for real significant content and upgrades. It was crushing when CoH was shut down (funny thing is I was a paid subscriber till the very end, and they had just come out with a new water power set that worked out very well.
I am hopping City of Titans does come to life, maybe just maybe that will wake up PWE and Cryptic. As it is they seem to have put more effort into Star Trek and Neverwinter than they have ever put into Champions at this point in time. It really is sad.
I keep on checking back with champions, and keep on hopping and all I have gotten is let down and disappointment.
1: The first time someone says, 'Hey you know what would be SO FUNNY?' or mentions 'parody'- fire them, then pelt them with fist-sized rocks once they leave the building. Get rid of this stupid, silly nonsense. Foxbat is enough, the entire game shouldn't look like it was written for the standard he sets.
Uhm. Have you NEVER read the Champions PnP material?
It's cover to cover homage, complete with tongue fused with nuclear fires to one's cheek.
2: Freeform should not be a thing like it is now. Replicate CoX's power system to a degree, but allow players to have 'cosmetic' control over the powers. If you can solo 99% of a game with your build, it's not a testament to your skills, but to the game's failure.
Never going to happen. They view the current setup as "superior" to CoH's fixed powersets.
As for the rest of your suggestions.
Don't worry, they won't be implemented like that because PWE is NEVER going to commission a CO-2.
Basically Cryptic and Atari utterly botched the launch of the game.
They continued botching the growth and progression of the game.
And Cryptic/PWE isn't really in a position to fix CO like it NEEDS to be fixed and because it's doing so poorly (due to all this mismanagement), there's no way in HELL they'll ever comission a sequel.
Uhm. Have you NEVER read the Champions PnP material?
It's cover to cover homage, complete with tongue fused with nuclear fires to one's cheek.
Hence why the first time I was handed one of the books back in 2002, I read through it and handed it back to its owner.
Sorry, I have a 'suspension of disbelief'. But I actually read comics, and respect them as a form of entertainment. What I saw in the book looked like Grabass with costumes.
Hence why the first time I was handed one of the books back in 2002, I read through it and handed it back to its owner.
Sorry, I have a 'suspension of disbelief'. But I actually read comics, and respect them as a form of entertainment. What I saw in the book looked like Grabass with costumes.
Honestly, the serious comics are the bad ones. Very rarely are they good. Their message is lost when the very super powers that the hero has would easily prevent said problem.
Hence why the first time I was handed one of the books back in 2002, I read through it and handed it back to its owner.
Sorry, I have a 'suspension of disbelief'. But I actually read comics, and respect them as a form of entertainment. What I saw in the book looked like Grabass with costumes.
Congrats, a lot of us read comics as well, that tends to go around here. the thing is you can respect stories with humor and light hearted elements as well. too much grim and we get into the leifeld/mcfarland over-angsty 90s dross that too often felt soulless. i mean, one of my favorite authors is adam warren and he handles tonal shifts to provide readers with relief from some really dark stuff, and it really allows him to go dark and not fatigue the reader because he gives moments to breath. and could we get a functional definition of "grabass" from a literal perspective, i don't recall grabbing anyone s butt, though using bite on nocturne can lead to somewhat amusing results given her height. and figuratively its meaningless, is it too much camp, any camp at all? lets build a baseline so we can understand each other.
I mean, i like some serious stuff, I love gaimen's sandman stuff and the crow, and those were certainly not exactly knock knock jokes, but the main reason i like nightcrawler so much is that he balances duty with humor, it makes him relatable whereas i find wolvie, who has less humor in his stuff, bleak and boring.
While I enjoy both grim and humorous comics alike, I have to agree that CO's humor leaves much to be desired. It often feels like the game is a rather poor comedian who's constantly poking you in the ribs going, "Do ya get it yet? Do ya get it yet?"
I think they should have toned back the humor and pop culture references just a weeee bit.
Congrats, a lot of us read comics as well, that tends to go around here. the thing is you can respect stories with humor and light hearted elements as well. too much grim and we get into the leifeld/mcfarland over-angsty 90s dross that too often felt soulless.
i mean, one of my favorite authors is adam warren and he handles tonal shifts to provide readers with relief from some really dark stuff, and it really allows him to go dark and not fatigue the reader because he gives moments to breath. and could we get a functional definition of "grabass" from a literal perspective, i don't recall grabbing anyone s butt, though using bite on nocturne can lead to somewhat amusing results given her height. and figuratively its meaningless, is it too much camp, any camp at all? lets build a baseline so we can understand each other.
Here, let me explain how I tell other people outside CO's fanbase:
CO is a comic book game, except the best way to describe it is if you had an episode of Muppet Babies where all the characters dress as Superheroes and then pretend to be those superheroes from the mind of a child. The very operative words are 'generic' and 'campy'.
After playing through the first area, Westside- it almost feels like you're not playing a game about superheroes or comic books- you're being parodied for liking superheroes and comic books.
Anyone who has every picked up a comic and read it should be outright insulted by CO's writing. It deserves no respect, and the greatest thing On Alert did for players was give us a reason to avoid this god-awful experience and just grind to Max Level.
I mean, i like some serious stuff, I love gaimen's sandman stuff and the crow, and those were certainly not exactly knock knock jokes, but the main reason i like nightcrawler so much is that he balances duty with humor, it makes him relatable whereas i find wolvie, who has less humor in his stuff, bleak and boring.
This is where people get confused.
'Grimdark' does not equal good. Grimdark is not the opposite of CO's writing. If you believe that these are the only two options, you should probably sit and read more comics.
Hang on. Let me be even more simple.
I fart out of nowhere one day. That's kinda funny.
CO keeps farting and going HUR HUR HUR. Repeatedly. Then it just starts staring you in the face and making fart noises with its mouth and keeps expecting you to crack up eventually. It's like a child that wants attention and desperately needs to be put in a corner.
Action movies have funny scenes. They're very welcome. I like that.
CO is a comedy game that parodies everything decent in comics, or at least pays homage in the most generic and lifeless way possible.
While I enjoy both grim and humorous comics alike, I have to agree that CO's humor leaves much to be desired. It often feels like the game is a rather poor comedian who's constantly poking you in the ribs going, "Do ya get it yet? Do ya get it yet?"
I think they should have toned back the humor and pop culture references just a weeee bit.
oh the humor can be a problem when handled poorly. the ron burgendy stuff here is a prime example that the humor here was handled wrong. a reference in itself is not sufficient to be funny, also has to be set up by the situation and have a reason for things to work like this. there is nothing that sets up the scene, nothing that justifies the character quirks...and that's beyond whether i thing the whole anchorman stuff is a warmed over bill braskey skit. but it fits poorly. in other I rcall a lot of people liking, in coh, the fan stuff written by the player"ascendent" and his crooked manager, it worked because the guy had good timing, the stuff that happened was organic and fit a consistent character, and deftly parodied some of the character flaws of the existing lore characters. So its less that I think there should be no humor, its that if you use it, it should be funny, and should fit the setting. co isnt all camp, i thought aftershock was great, and moments like when you escort the scottish girl from her mother. but co doesn't do humor well.
CO humor is simply very forced and poor quality. It's stuffed everywhere in the game whether it's needed, or not. It's, indeed, like some desperate poor comedian who really wants to be taken as someone funny and tries too hard. Ending as someone pathetic, but not exactly funny.
Here, let me explain how I tell other people outside CO's fanbase:
CO is a comic book game, except the best way to describe it is if you had an episode of Muppet Babies where all the characters dress as Superheroes and then pretend to be those superheroes from the mind of a child. The very operative words are 'generic' and 'campy'.
After playing through the first area, Westside- it almost feels like you're not playing a game about superheroes or comic books- you're being parodied for liking superheroes and comic books.
Anyone who has every picked up a comic and read it should be outright insulted by CO's writing. It deserves no respect, and the greatest thing On Alert did for players was give us a reason to avoid this god-awful experience and just grind to Max Level.
This is where people get confused.
'Grimdark' does not equal good. Grimdark is not the opposite of CO's writing. If you believe that these are the only two options, you should probably sit and read more comics.
Hang on. Let me be even more simple.
I fart out of nowhere one day. That's kinda funny.
CO keeps farting and going HUR HUR HUR. Repeatedly. Then it just starts staring you in the face and making fart noises with its mouth and keeps expecting you to crack up eventually. It's like a child that wants attention and desperately needs to be put in a corner.
Action movies have funny scenes. They're very welcome. I like that.
CO is a comedy game that parodies everything decent in comics, or at least pays homage in the most generic and lifeless way possible.
thats an exaggeration that only shows how you aren't really being fully honest here. co does humor badly, ill agree to that, but its not just humor, there was no humor in the menton arc,almost none in the lemuria arc(the steve zisseau guy but he can be skipped), no humor at all in aftershock, minimal humor in whiteout(some of the scientist characterizations get a bit over the tp) but making a blanket refusal of comedy is being excessively limiting. co needs better writing, but if someone can actually do humor, then there is no reason there should be a block prohibition against it. I loved the humor in coh's doc buzz-saw arc, it fit the setting and was funny , if someone in nc north can do that, then they should. the guy that wrote the anchorman gag, yeah, he/she is banned from humor, but as a flat law, that's just a bad restriction.
Westside has a few bad notes, frankly i'm amazed the lo-pan cant pronounce l's and r's gag is still in, im all for benefit of the doubt, but some stuff is just blatantly racist. that said, westside is a bad introduction, its got the same issues as foxbat, no restraint and a lack of understanding of what makes humor work in games, but as i said, later stuff gets better.
thats an exaggeration that only shows how you aren't really being fully honest here. co does humor badly, ill agree to that, but its not just humor, there was no humor in the menton arc,almost none in the lemuria arc(the steve zisseau guy but he can be skipped), no humor at all in aftershock, minimal humor in whiteout(some of the scientist characterizations get a bit over the tp) but making a blanket refusal of comedy is being excessively limiting. co needs better writing, but if someone can actually do humor, then there is no reason there should be a block prohibition against it. I loved the humor in coh's doc buzz-saw arc, it fit the setting and was funny , if someone in nc north can do that, then they should. the guy that wrote the anchorman gag, yeah, he/she is banned from humor, but as a flat law, that's just a bad restriction.
Westside has a few bad notes, frankly i'm amazed the lo-pan cant pronounce l's and r's gag is still in, im all for benefit of the doubt, but some stuff is just blatantly racist. that said, westside is a bad introduction, its got the same issues as foxbat, no restraint and a lack of understanding of what makes humor work in games, but as i said, later stuff gets better.
This is in Vibora Bay. It is an NPC. A Developer put this in the game.
This is what the writers at the time thought of us.
I rest my case.
If I need to further elaborate:
Mocking an ethnicity in the way that Hi-Pan does is blatantly racist. Sorry, try doing this with an African-American and watch how fast this gets edited. It's not funny, it's a racist 'humor' that America abandoned sometime in the 60's, aside from a few bigots that will use this as a cheap means to get a laugh.
This is in Vibora Bay. It is an NPC. A Developer put this in the game.
This is what the writers at the time thought of us.
I rest my case.
If I need to further elaborate:
Mocking an ethnicity in the way that Hi-Pan does is blatantly racist. Sorry, try doing this with an African-American and watch how fast this gets edited. It's not funny, it's a racist 'humor' that America abandoned sometime in the 60's, aside from a few bigots that will use this as a cheap means to get a laugh.
I didnt mention vibora bay for a reason, the gadget guy is kind of a shaggy parody too, but on the same token, lets fish all the babies out of the bath here, vib bay is generally a pretty solid arc with a good feel of an apocalyptic enemy that starts you in a really bad situation. you do get pegged with the idiot ball back in the beginning, and buffy/taffy is a little silly. and yes, i disliked hi pan too, thats why i mentioned it as an example of where current writers missed the ball entirely. none of this invalidates aftershock, or menton, or most of lemuria, or monster island.
also, is this guy in the main arc? I have not seen him at all, and im right now at the trimagestrius council part of the arc. I can tolerate screwy characters being outside of the main arc because you can ignore them(like steve zisseau)
This is in Vibora Bay. It is an NPC. A Developer put this in the game.
This is what the writers at the time thought of us.
I rest my case.
If I need to further elaborate:
Mocking an ethnicity in the way that Hi-Pan does is blatantly racist. Sorry, try doing this with an African-American and watch how fast this gets edited. It's not funny, it's a racist 'humor' that America abandoned sometime in the 60's, aside from a few bigots that will use this as a cheap means to get a laugh.
Actually no that's not what they thought of us. You don't know your references. That's a reference to the movie Labyrinth, as the is the maze you enter and travel through. In fact the Goblin King is inside at certain time periods and lets you earn the Magic Dance perk. So, no your case is not rested. The problem was way too much references.
I didnt mention vibora bay for a reason, the gadget guy is kind of a shaggy parody too, but on the same token, lets fish all the babies out of the abth here, vib bay is generally a pretty solid arc with a good feel of an apocolyptic enemy that starts you in a really bad situation. you do get pegged with the idiot ball back in the beginning, and buffy is a little silly. and yes, i disliked hi pan too, thats why i mentioned it as an example of where current writers missed the ball entirely. none of this invalidates aftershock, or menton, or most of lemuria, or monster island.
Vibora Bay:
"Hey, this town is going to hell. Lots of people dead. You have to help us, or it's the end of the word. A dark sinister angel/demon hybrid is wanting to destroy everything!"
"Holy crap, Champions are dying!"
"Oh yeah while you were gone, other Champions died."
"Oh, damn! A trusted member of the Champions betrayed us!"
"We have to do something, quick! Juryrig, the time machine!"
10 MINUTES LATER
Actually no that's not what they thought of us. You don't know your references. That's a reference to the movie Labyrinth, as the is the maze you enter and travel through. In fact the Goblin King is inside at certain time periods and lets you earn the Magic Dance perk. So, no your case is not rested. The problem was way too much references.
Really, because I don't remember a Puff-Daddy inspired wolf furry in Labyrinth, and I can reach out and touch the DVD and dig out the VHS and check again, if you like. (there is, in my defense, an inch of dust on both)
that would be why we ask for better story telling, not a flat ban on comedy.
also, while we are on the subject of racism, whats with the no anime influence thing? what is an anime influence that you disliked, what anime influences are even in co, and by what justifications should they be banned? in fact, elts define what exactly is an anime influence? psychic kids(the stepford cookos), ninjas?(wolverines japan arc, silver samurai) powersuits?(tony frikkin stark) giant robots?(sentinels) heartfelt yet wistful reminisces of childhood with extensive stylization that reflect the lost innocence and sense of wonder of looking at the world through child-like eyes(well, anime has miyazaki, but this is one i dont generally see in comics) what exactly is specifically anime that you feel need to be excluded? hack, id love more "paranoia agent"-esque mind screws.
Really, because I don't remember a Puff-Daddy inspired wolf furry in Labyrinth, and I can reach out and touch the DVD and dig out the VHS and check again, if you like. (there is, in my defense, an inch of dust on both)
You don't remember the fox named Sir Diddimus..... SHUN!
1: The first time someone says, 'Hey you know what would be SO FUNNY?' or mentions 'parody'- fire them, then pelt them with fist-sized rocks once they leave the building. Get rid of this stupid, silly nonsense. Foxbat is enough, the entire game shouldn't look like it was written for the standard he sets.
suggestion of parody =physical violence, seems like a flat ban to me. if your point was more nuanced, include nuance.
had you said be more conservative with comedy, and gone with what comedy needed to be done more carfully, i'd have agreed entirely. there is a reason i have a road map of which contacts to avoid. i dont do foxbat anymore, once was enough.
Really, because I don't remember a Puff-Daddy inspired wolf furry in Labyrinth, and I can reach out and touch the DVD and dig out the VHS and check again, if you like. (there is, in my defense, an inch of dust on both)
Sir Didymus. Although it would seem they combined their "parody" with current pop culture surrounding the music industry's questionable practices. So it's not exactly a pure "homage."
Was that last line too complicated? If you've been exposed to CO's writing for too long, it's easy to miss complete thoughts and the like.
the last line doesnt invalidate the first. It was a suggestion followed by an example. had you wanted to suggestion to be more nuanced, you did not accomplish that.
the last line doesnt invalidate the first. It was a suggestion followed by an example. had you wanted to suggestion to be more nuanced, you did not accomplish that.
It still stands completely. Humor shouldn't be forced like P. Diddy references. Or any of these references at all.
Seriously, CO's entire 'writing' seems like the game's load screen is right, and Foxbat hacked into it.
You know who was funny? The wind guy in City of Villains. 'I'm. The. Wind. Bro." That was humor. It was a character with a sense of humor, in a setting that actually cared about comics.
What's even sadders is the fact that multiple players in CO despise Deadpool, but this game is actually... Deadpool, just less violent.
It still stands completely. Humor shouldn't be forced like P. Diddy references. Or any of these references at all.
Seriously, CO's entire 'writing' seems like the game's load screen is right, and Foxbat hacked into it.
You know who was funny? The wind guy in City of Villains. 'I'm. The. Wind. Bro." That was humor. It was a character with a sense of humor, in a setting that actually cared about comics.
What's even sadders is the fact that multiple players in CO despise Deadpool, but this game is actually... Deadpool, just less violent.
see, i agree with all of that. I dont remember the wind guy, but i know in general they handled humor well. still love doc buzzsaw and her nictus powered freakshow tank. Humor in games is tough, you do the same thing over and over again and comedy requires timing and context to work, but unless someone in cryptic north is funny, they need to keep all the past writers off the jokes, particularly hi-pan guy, that guy needs to be away from anything involving words.
on the same token, ill sy that fatal error the humor worked a bit better. it was a quck characterization joke, ironclad is clumsy with technology, sapphire is good at texting and defender is verbose, that worked ok, it didnt wear out its welcome . i didnt try the new foxbat stuff because I have been playing dark souls 1 and 2, so i cant judge that. that said, there hasnt been much new content recently to give us a window into whether CN is better or not. did not care for the dialogue in forum malvan, it was wooden as heck.
see, i agree with all of that. I dont remember the wind guy, but i know in general they handled humor well. still love doc buzzsaw and her nictus powered freakshow tank. Humor in games is tough, you do the same thing over and over again and comedy requires timing and context to work, but unless someone in cryptic north is funny, they need to keep all the past writers off the jokes, particularly hi-pan guy, that guy needs to be away from anything involving words.
I also believe that a significant majority of CO's camp would be eliminated if voice-acting altogether were scrapped.
I'm not even sure this is a big deal. In an MMO? Usually, I'm listening to other music anyway, all I need is basic sound effects.
in doc buzzsaw's arc? are you sure? its been a while since i palyed(grumble grumble) maybe my memory is off. and yeah, i hadn't played the new villain tutorial. when we got class switching, everone was a hero.
EDIt: nope, your're right, its coral, just checked the non-wikia wiki. gettin' old.
in doc buzzsaw's arc? are you sure? its been a while since i palyed(grumble grumble) maybe my memory is off. and yeah, i hadn't played the new villain tutorial. when we got class switching, everone was a hero.
Comments
Cryptic would rather be a "McMMO". Where they take their base engine and spin out an MMO based on a property through lots of nasty hackery. Then, once they determine it's "done", they don't touch it anymore or turn it over to a "maintenance team" who has just enough rights to fiddle, but can't really expand the game.
Part of the problem is how Cryptic builds systems. There are problems with growing games organically over time. And Cryptic's engine has them all. Screwy, nonstandard UIs, diverse systems which start as hacks and never really get a finishing pass, or even a true development pass (Nemesis system, I'm lookin' at you).
It's like there's a big meeting and a dev goes "I have this great idea. Here's a technical mockup."
And someone goes "Yeah. Let's fly with that."
The dev goes, wait, this is just a hack to show you what we wanna do. Are we going to see some programming time to make a neat tie-in to the system?
Does it work right now?
Yeah...ish.
GOOD ENOUGH! SHIP IT!
And these nasty hacks about in the games. Piling one atop another. So there's very good reasons why talking about doing major work or expansion in Cryptic games (especially on specialty subsystems) causes the maintenance teams to lock themselves into a cold, dark room, curl up in a fetal position, soil themselves and give longing consideration to self-trepanation with a belt sander.
Basically, PWE isn't going to put forth the effort for a second pass at Champions Online.
And more, the primary CO game isn't really in any shape to have anything more than cursory, cosmetic work done to it without MAJOR, probably irreparable-to-PWE systems breakage.
And, even if PWE WAS, they'd likely follow the Neverwinter model. Free-to-play and then cut your throat in the cash shop. (Nickeled and dimed to death? You WISH! $10'ed and $20'd to death.)
Hate to be a buzzkill, just, that's how I see it. And the only ones who'll likely be able to tell if I'm right are Cryptic North or someone who's gone diving the HOGG files.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Perfect World actually made a sequel to one of their own MMOs - see Battle of the Immortals and War of the Immortals.
Probably not since PoE/Marvel Heroes/D3. It kind of filled that gap before that, since there was a bit of a drought in isometric ARPG types.
WoW has never had a free expansion; the closest they came was when they finally made the basic game a free download. Oh, and that so-called "F2P" thing they have, where they shut you down just as you're getting to the point that you're allowed to ride a pony...
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I only played wow for about a month before the ancient graphics drove me off, but i thought they periodically added new areas that opened to players, like back when they opened up a new troll area. or the new oggrimmar raid. with the guy with the logs on his shoulders As i said, coh was the mmo that i played the most, but we got about 3 free expansions every year, some were small, ones like issue 17. The smaller ones would be comparable to what co put out last year..all together. and then there were others where we got new zones, like croatoa, striga island and the shadow shard or revamps of existing zones that totally changed their look and mechanics(rikti war zone, faultline and especially dark astoria.) so yeah, none of those were dependent on buying an expansion, they were covered by subscription. I also recall Star wars galaxies content patches bringing in new areas and weapons, end even phantasy star uinverse added some new zones, though it took forever for the us to get them.
http://sto-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?p=14501981#post14501981
Highlights mine. Unfortunately this game isnt doing well enough to have more than a small dev team. And unfortunately we have nothing more to look forward to than a new event every now and then, or a new costume, or a bug fix. This game will not be getting any major new content anymore. It is past its prime earning potential, and is now only bringing in enough to justify keeping the servers up, but there is no way to know how long that will last.
1: The first time someone says, 'Hey you know what would be SO FUNNY?' or mentions 'parody'- fire them, then pelt them with fist-sized rocks once they leave the building. Get rid of this stupid, silly nonsense. Foxbat is enough, the entire game shouldn't look like it was written for the standard he sets.
2: Freeform should not be a thing like it is now. Replicate CoX's power system to a degree, but allow players to have 'cosmetic' control over the powers. If you can solo 99% of a game with your build, it's not a testament to your skills, but to the game's failure.
3: Stick with the source material. If you're going to interpret from Champions Pen and Paper- at least be faithful to it. I personally think it sucks, but the worst part is that CO changed most of it, butchered other parts, and took their entire selection from the worst parts of the books.
4: Don't do vehicles. Period. if you're not going to make expansive maps that could benefit from fast travel, there's no reason to make them. And if you DO make them, they should be customizable. Otherwise, just DON'T.
5: Steamline to tailor to expand on it. Work in layers: Skin, tights, armor, accessories. Three layers of 'costuming' similar to what we have, and all the weapons and logos and capes and what-have-you can be tacked onto those layers. Clipping is OUR concern, not yours.
6: Make the journey of the hero work its way up. There is no reason any superhero should start fighting street thugs, then hi-tech terrorists, then giant monsters, then vampires and voodoo people. It should feel like a logical progression of a hero, not a roller coaster of powerful foes back down to worthless mooks.
7: If the Nemesis system is going to be the same-old story no matter what you create, then don't even bother at all. If you can make it a 'special' story for certain 'types' of villains with real choices and consequences? Fine. Otherwise just don't make it at all, it's a waste of time.
8: Make a villain side. Just do it. With a more streamlined power system, a better PvP system- 'Put up or Shut up' rules are in effect. People are making villains anyway, you might as well make them feel right at home.
9: Keep the game's focus about Western Superheroes and western comics. If you want to make a fantasy or anime game on the side, do so and appease that fanbase. Don't shove aside people who came to this game because of the Western Superhero/Comic theme to appease other genres. This whole 'something for everyone' thing doesn't work, you can't make everyone happy. You can only appease on group while pissing on another.
10. Don't do the chat ban system like it is now. Ever. Again. Worst idea in gaming since the Power Glove.
I love the Power Glove.
It's so bad.
Fixed for you.
no actually the quote is bad . http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZErvASwdlU
HOLY CRAP! I forgot this movie existed.
I don't think it's the genre that's causing the problem. Though the genre may never be as big as sword & fantasy when it comes to MMOs.
I do think a real Marvel MMORPG would do real well and with Disney owning Marvel, I am a bit surprised it's not out there
No a Marvel MMO would not do well because Marvel absolutely refuses to let people create their own personal heroes in their property. This is why when Cryptic originally had the game you were going to have to be one of the Marvel line up and this is why Marvel Heroes and Super Hero Squad you have to pick one of the Marvel line up.
But in the end would it have mattered? Just like DCUO the end result even if you could create your own character, all you would be doing is building powers based on what already existed in Marvel's locker. Branching out would have been difficult based on that minimum.
DCUO is also doing quite well, but that's thanks to the PS3 tie in.
Silverspar on PRIMUS
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Well, that is... unless you're a writer shoehorning in a Mary Sue character with the same name as another character....
Couldn't agree with you more, here... though Marvel does have a more balanced hero lineup, to a degree.
I am hopping City of Titans does come to life, maybe just maybe that will wake up PWE and Cryptic. As it is they seem to have put more effort into Star Trek and Neverwinter than they have ever put into Champions at this point in time. It really is sad.
I keep on checking back with champions, and keep on hopping and all I have gotten is let down and disappointment.
Very sad, very sad indeed
:mad:
Uhm. Have you NEVER read the Champions PnP material?
It's cover to cover homage, complete with tongue fused with nuclear fires to one's cheek.
Never going to happen. They view the current setup as "superior" to CoH's fixed powersets.
As for the rest of your suggestions.
Don't worry, they won't be implemented like that because PWE is NEVER going to commission a CO-2.
Basically Cryptic and Atari utterly botched the launch of the game.
They continued botching the growth and progression of the game.
And Cryptic/PWE isn't really in a position to fix CO like it NEEDS to be fixed and because it's doing so poorly (due to all this mismanagement), there's no way in HELL they'll ever comission a sequel.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
Hence why the first time I was handed one of the books back in 2002, I read through it and handed it back to its owner.
Sorry, I have a 'suspension of disbelief'. But I actually read comics, and respect them as a form of entertainment. What I saw in the book looked like Grabass with costumes.
Honestly, the serious comics are the bad ones. Very rarely are they good. Their message is lost when the very super powers that the hero has would easily prevent said problem.
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Congrats, a lot of us read comics as well, that tends to go around here. the thing is you can respect stories with humor and light hearted elements as well. too much grim and we get into the leifeld/mcfarland over-angsty 90s dross that too often felt soulless. i mean, one of my favorite authors is adam warren and he handles tonal shifts to provide readers with relief from some really dark stuff, and it really allows him to go dark and not fatigue the reader because he gives moments to breath. and could we get a functional definition of "grabass" from a literal perspective, i don't recall grabbing anyone s butt, though using bite on nocturne can lead to somewhat amusing results given her height. and figuratively its meaningless, is it too much camp, any camp at all? lets build a baseline so we can understand each other.
I mean, i like some serious stuff, I love gaimen's sandman stuff and the crow, and those were certainly not exactly knock knock jokes, but the main reason i like nightcrawler so much is that he balances duty with humor, it makes him relatable whereas i find wolvie, who has less humor in his stuff, bleak and boring.
I think they should have toned back the humor and pop culture references just a weeee bit.
Here, let me explain how I tell other people outside CO's fanbase:
CO is a comic book game, except the best way to describe it is if you had an episode of Muppet Babies where all the characters dress as Superheroes and then pretend to be those superheroes from the mind of a child. The very operative words are 'generic' and 'campy'.
After playing through the first area, Westside- it almost feels like you're not playing a game about superheroes or comic books- you're being parodied for liking superheroes and comic books.
Anyone who has every picked up a comic and read it should be outright insulted by CO's writing. It deserves no respect, and the greatest thing On Alert did for players was give us a reason to avoid this god-awful experience and just grind to Max Level.
This is where people get confused.
'Grimdark' does not equal good. Grimdark is not the opposite of CO's writing. If you believe that these are the only two options, you should probably sit and read more comics.
Hang on. Let me be even more simple.
I fart out of nowhere one day. That's kinda funny.
CO keeps farting and going HUR HUR HUR. Repeatedly. Then it just starts staring you in the face and making fart noises with its mouth and keeps expecting you to crack up eventually. It's like a child that wants attention and desperately needs to be put in a corner.
Action movies have funny scenes. They're very welcome. I like that.
CO is a comedy game that parodies everything decent in comics, or at least pays homage in the most generic and lifeless way possible.
oh the humor can be a problem when handled poorly. the ron burgendy stuff here is a prime example that the humor here was handled wrong. a reference in itself is not sufficient to be funny, also has to be set up by the situation and have a reason for things to work like this. there is nothing that sets up the scene, nothing that justifies the character quirks...and that's beyond whether i thing the whole anchorman stuff is a warmed over bill braskey skit. but it fits poorly. in other I rcall a lot of people liking, in coh, the fan stuff written by the player"ascendent" and his crooked manager, it worked because the guy had good timing, the stuff that happened was organic and fit a consistent character, and deftly parodied some of the character flaws of the existing lore characters. So its less that I think there should be no humor, its that if you use it, it should be funny, and should fit the setting. co isnt all camp, i thought aftershock was great, and moments like when you escort the scottish girl from her mother. but co doesn't do humor well.
Westside has a few bad notes, frankly i'm amazed the lo-pan cant pronounce l's and r's gag is still in, im all for benefit of the doubt, but some stuff is just blatantly racist. that said, westside is a bad introduction, its got the same issues as foxbat, no restraint and a lack of understanding of what makes humor work in games, but as i said, later stuff gets better.
This is in Vibora Bay. It is an NPC. A Developer put this in the game.
This is what the writers at the time thought of us.
I rest my case.
If I need to further elaborate:
Mocking an ethnicity in the way that Hi-Pan does is blatantly racist. Sorry, try doing this with an African-American and watch how fast this gets edited. It's not funny, it's a racist 'humor' that America abandoned sometime in the 60's, aside from a few bigots that will use this as a cheap means to get a laugh.
I didnt mention vibora bay for a reason, the gadget guy is kind of a shaggy parody too, but on the same token, lets fish all the babies out of the bath here, vib bay is generally a pretty solid arc with a good feel of an apocalyptic enemy that starts you in a really bad situation. you do get pegged with the idiot ball back in the beginning, and buffy/taffy is a little silly. and yes, i disliked hi pan too, thats why i mentioned it as an example of where current writers missed the ball entirely. none of this invalidates aftershock, or menton, or most of lemuria, or monster island.
also, is this guy in the main arc? I have not seen him at all, and im right now at the trimagestrius council part of the arc. I can tolerate screwy characters being outside of the main arc because you can ignore them(like steve zisseau)
Actually no that's not what they thought of us. You don't know your references. That's a reference to the movie Labyrinth, as the is the maze you enter and travel through. In fact the Goblin King is inside at certain time periods and lets you earn the Magic Dance perk. So, no your case is not rested. The problem was way too much references.
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Vibora Bay:
"Hey, this town is going to hell. Lots of people dead. You have to help us, or it's the end of the word. A dark sinister angel/demon hybrid is wanting to destroy everything!"
"Holy crap, Champions are dying!"
"Oh yeah while you were gone, other Champions died."
"Oh, damn! A trusted member of the Champions betrayed us!"
"We have to do something, quick! Juryrig, the time machine!"
10 MINUTES LATER
"Hi I'm Caliburn, get me a sandwich."
Yeah. Not good storytelling.
Really, because I don't remember a Puff-Daddy inspired wolf furry in Labyrinth, and I can reach out and touch the DVD and dig out the VHS and check again, if you like. (there is, in my defense, an inch of dust on both)
also, while we are on the subject of racism, whats with the no anime influence thing? what is an anime influence that you disliked, what anime influences are even in co, and by what justifications should they be banned? in fact, elts define what exactly is an anime influence? psychic kids(the stepford cookos), ninjas?(wolverines japan arc, silver samurai) powersuits?(tony frikkin stark) giant robots?(sentinels) heartfelt yet wistful reminisces of childhood with extensive stylization that reflect the lost innocence and sense of wonder of looking at the world through child-like eyes(well, anime has miyazaki, but this is one i dont generally see in comics) what exactly is specifically anime that you feel need to be excluded? hack, id love more "paranoia agent"-esque mind screws.
I'm not asking for a flat-out ban on comedy. I'm fine with a little. But whoever wrote this? This isn't comedy. It's pathetic.
You don't remember the fox named Sir Diddimus..... SHUN!
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There was the dog...thing. He had a blue hat and... like a stick or something? He was like a long-haired dog or something.
Dude, sorry. I watched that movie for Bowie.
And now I know what I'm doing with my evening.. huehuehue...
had you said be more conservative with comedy, and gone with what comedy needed to be done more carfully, i'd have agreed entirely. there is a reason i have a road map of which contacts to avoid. i dont do foxbat anymore, once was enough.
OMG, SUPER SHUN because you are mixing up Sir Diddimus which was a fox knight that rode a shaggy dog, and Ludo the giant troll/ogre/puppy thing.
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Was that last line too complicated? If you've been exposed to CO's writing for too long, it's easy to miss complete thoughts and the like.
Sir Didymus. Although it would seem they combined their "parody" with current pop culture surrounding the music industry's questionable practices. So it's not exactly a pure "homage."
I can sing 'I saw my baby crying' in the shower, so take that.
It's been a while.
the last line doesnt invalidate the first. It was a suggestion followed by an example. had you wanted to suggestion to be more nuanced, you did not accomplish that.
It still stands completely. Humor shouldn't be forced like P. Diddy references. Or any of these references at all.
Seriously, CO's entire 'writing' seems like the game's load screen is right, and Foxbat hacked into it.
You know who was funny? The wind guy in City of Villains. 'I'm. The. Wind. Bro." That was humor. It was a character with a sense of humor, in a setting that actually cared about comics.
What's even sadders is the fact that multiple players in CO despise Deadpool, but this game is actually... Deadpool, just less violent.
This is moderately funny, random comic humor:
see, i agree with all of that. I dont remember the wind guy, but i know in general they handled humor well. still love doc buzzsaw and her nictus powered freakshow tank. Humor in games is tough, you do the same thing over and over again and comedy requires timing and context to work, but unless someone in cryptic north is funny, they need to keep all the past writers off the jokes, particularly hi-pan guy, that guy needs to be away from anything involving words.
on the same token, ill sy that fatal error the humor worked a bit better. it was a quck characterization joke, ironclad is clumsy with technology, sapphire is good at texting and defender is verbose, that worked ok, it didnt wear out its welcome . i didnt try the new foxbat stuff because I have been playing dark souls 1 and 2, so i cant judge that. that said, there hasnt been much new content recently to give us a window into whether CN is better or not. did not care for the dialogue in forum malvan, it was wooden as heck.
I also believe that a significant majority of CO's camp would be eliminated if voice-acting altogether were scrapped.
I'm not even sure this is a big deal. In an MMO? Usually, I'm listening to other music anyway, all I need is basic sound effects.
And the Zephyr, the Wind, appeared in the new CoV tutorial arc involving the contest from Dr. Graves. He was one of your competitors.
EDIt: nope, your're right, its coral, just checked the non-wikia wiki. gettin' old.
Yes. I'm absolutely sure. It was Red Coral.