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Petition to Stop Vehicle content or Add customization to them
cybersoldier1981
Posts: 2,501 Arc User
Seriously.
Enough is enough, and I want to see how many people in this community are willing to vocalize their weariness of this 'content'.
Vehicles are usable in 3 alerts and outdoor maps only. I believe you can use them in one Adventure Pack. Otherwise, they're not usable in any other instances or lairs.
We want more powers, we want more costumes, we want more auras, we want more playable content. Other parts of the game are desperately aching for fixes and additions and we keep coming back to this.
Please stop wasting developer time on these things. This game is about superheroes, not space ships and swoop bikes.
Yes, I will admit they do look kinda cool and in any other kind of setting/game, I'd probably be down for them, but this is getting out of hand.
Please take Champions Online back.
/sign this and state what you think. Make Cryptic see that you're tired of this (if you are).
Also, here's my official and final word on the matter:
GIVE US THE OPTION TO CUSTOMIZE THEM OR SIMPLY STOP WITH VEHICLES.
/SIGNED- the forum jerk.
P.S.: Suggested alternative: Customizable become devices like armors, spirit/monster forms, mech suits. Things that work in other areas of the game and still give players that option to help fight mobs.
Enough is enough, and I want to see how many people in this community are willing to vocalize their weariness of this 'content'.
Vehicles are usable in 3 alerts and outdoor maps only. I believe you can use them in one Adventure Pack. Otherwise, they're not usable in any other instances or lairs.
We want more powers, we want more costumes, we want more auras, we want more playable content. Other parts of the game are desperately aching for fixes and additions and we keep coming back to this.
Please stop wasting developer time on these things. This game is about superheroes, not space ships and swoop bikes.
Yes, I will admit they do look kinda cool and in any other kind of setting/game, I'd probably be down for them, but this is getting out of hand.
Please take Champions Online back.
/sign this and state what you think. Make Cryptic see that you're tired of this (if you are).
Also, here's my official and final word on the matter:
GIVE US THE OPTION TO CUSTOMIZE THEM OR SIMPLY STOP WITH VEHICLES.
/SIGNED- the forum jerk.
P.S.: Suggested alternative: Customizable become devices like armors, spirit/monster forms, mech suits. Things that work in other areas of the game and still give players that option to help fight mobs.
Post edited by cybersoldier1981 on
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I don't need to say anything, the signature quote sums it up perfectly.
@dr490nbr347hi / Playing since January 25, '11
Display normal Internet behavior. Come and make fun (yes, make fun) of my PRIMUS page.
10char
It won't change PW's course. They are picking really random things to work on, and certainly not what most of us want, which is more content and endgame. I still maintain that CN trains on selling and tweaking here while a couple dedicated soulsl spend extra time (off hours) trying to balance powers.
Sorry for the ramble.
Gah.
Double signed. We have been so patient at this point Cryptic it's not funny. Ask us what we want, talk to us. Something. Anything.
edit: op one can use vehicles in the first outside instance of Resistance and all outside maps in Demonflame, so technically I think we should count it at 2 AP's that vehicles can access.
My mages shouldn't have to ride vehicles to be competitive with the players who do. After all they can fly, teleport, and otherwise blow up puny vehicles with their magic. Why the hell do they need to get on a weapons platform?
More importantly, to me this game is about characters I created from my imagination. Their power choices are thematically consistent with their individual lore. Stealthy blade girl uses Night Warrior and dual New Shadows Vampiric blades. Big grey ash demon has a super-magnifier and makes use of Enrage with Giant Growth from his Aspect of the Bestial as he claws away at stuff (which btw, Aspect of the Bestial ranks 2 and 3 are STILL broken after a year of reporting the bug...) And yes I have to modern characters that make total sense using vehicles, but even they get out of the vehicle for land combat.
Vehicles are glorified, moddable, become devices. They REPLACE your hero, and make their super-hero-ness inferior to what the vehicle can do. If I wanted a Flight Sim, I'd play games that do it better. As is oft said these days, "This is Champions Online, not Vehicles Online".
I didn't come here for the vehicles, yet it seems that's all our developers here and our "Benefactors" PWE seem to want to do. Oh and lockboxes, costumes, and auras. Basically bells & whistles, not real content you can have the fun of exploring. It's about the bling, not the experience anymore, and that's kind of... sad.
Most importantly, I feel vehicles are not only untrue to the core of what Champions Online is about. It's also a gross misuse of finite and apparently very limited resources. I can't even bare to think of what COULD have been done instead with the time and money invested in Vehicle development. Perhaps a new Adventure Pack? Perhaps some new power sets? Upgrades to weak powers (Ultimate powers that are NOT Unleashed Rage comes to mind). New PvP maps? New maps and missions period? A continuation of the Zone revamps that started and then stopped? New events? New Zone? Hell even new hideout content and some SG bases that are even a fraction of what they are in STO?
So yeah, please, for the love of kittens, enough with the vehicles already. Enough with trying to push all investments on a D&D Fantasy and Star Trek franschise, there's more room to grow here. Why do you hate us so PWE? Don't you want a piece of the Superhero fandom that is sweeping in films and TV series?
The best thing about superhero themed stuff?
HOPE.
It's why we love stories of heroes. Because in spite of odds against them, the hero prevails. That is inspiring, gives us some hope in our daily lives.
Whiteout too... So that's 3.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Until theres new game called Champions Online: Vehicle Wars, they need to move on something new.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Things like finetuning and adjusting weaponry can be done anytime. Things like releasing other vehicle skins (for example, ANYTHING for magic/steampunk/art deco themed characters) can be done occasionally. Like themed vehicles to go with events.
And that's it.
My look on vehicles would be more enthusiastic, if not two things:
1 - Lack of visual customisation, and even a simple one, like color changes and emblems (because when vehicles are used in comic books, they aren't generic, they are extensions of heroes, as unique as their costumes*).
And I have no faith in visual customisation being ever made for vehicles.
2 - Not a real need for having vehicles. Vehicles aren't a thing for queued content. Their speed would be most suited for things like new zones. The thing CO is lacking.
Sure, I can have my swell ride, but what exactly I'm supposed to do with it aside of two rampages and maybe farming in old zones?
There are more important things in game in a desperate need for attention. Powers, nemesis content, lairs. That's without even mentioning something very unlikely to happend, like new zones.
*) - and that's even IF player wants to make a transformer - how many transforming bots have generic vehicle modes? None of them, unless they are grunts/mooks. In any other case it is never generic, even if only colours are unique.
But I'm not signing in, since a forum petition is unlikely to change anything.
Wow didn't know, will plan carpet bombing campaign.
i agree this game needs more content and such.. more costume parts is a must
and auras really should be treated as a costume part.. for example it should have its own tab in the costume creator that allows you to slot 4 auras to a toon.. also when you buy a aura set it should be unlocked account wide not to a single toon.. this is why i havn't bought any of the auras because i don't wanna buy the same aura set more then once just so a few of my toons can have fiery eyes.. that or lower the cost of the aura sets by alot
about vehicles.. i think they were overly nerfed and because of this update.. vehicles should no longer be bound to account so we can sell em if we no longer want them as i wanna sell mine
new areas would be nice
Pretty much what I had been thinking a few days ago.
/signed
DoomedLuke at Primus Data Base
And at DeviantArt
I can't even bring myself to log into the game anymore. It just saddens me to see what Cryptic, and then Perfect World, did to what could have been a great game.
Cryptic does not make enough money on this title to warrant investing in the resources needed to produce the content you or I would like to see. Especially when they can invest the same money into STO and NWO and get a much better return on investment.
The only hope we have to get them is to monetize the hell out of this game, hope the revenue stream rises, and if that's achieved, then hope Cryptic uses that revenue to add personnel to CO and slowly ramp up the production team, rather than pour the money into other titles as they've done in the past. If we ever get to that level -- which I doubt, given the current MC pop figures -- then they may be able to spend the $150K+ (team of 12+, average salary 50k/year, 3 months minimum time) it would take to make a new zone.
Or hope that someone wins the lottery and throws money at Cryptic and says "here, spend it on CO."
Until such time, we will see more unpopular cash cows like lockboxes and overpriced vehicles with all the customization options of a NWO mount (ie. none), and overpriced aura slots, because this game will not have a hope of expanding without them, and even then the hopes are so slim that I'm deeply skeptical they'll ever happen.
It's not a matter of "not listening". It's a matter of not having the revenue to justify spending money on what they're being told.
Reality is brutal, but there it is.
And yes, I think we've had enough of vehicles, unless we get some which are closer to the genre. If a vehicle doesn't look like Kirby or Bill Finger could have designed them, I'm not interested.
After the effort I've put into acquiring my Widow, equipping weapons and mods, I feel like I've been taken. The vehicles 2.0 update has done a lot to kill my interest in any further vehicles or vehicle related, uh, content.
I am happy to pay for more costumes, would love to see more powers, and dream of exploring other lands. But I am done with putting up money, and hoping to see something that the player base has been asking for, since before I had started playing CO.
"Champions-Online and Star Trek Online contained hundreds of hours of mediocre content!"
and "nothing was polished".
--Jack Emmert
I have 0 faith in PWE's ability to understand what's going on with their games or have any coherent game vision, so ...
/signed, for all the good it will do.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
/signed
I think given the circumstances and previous trend, Devs are doing a good effort these months. We could always want more but ...
If most of players think that it is enough with vehicle development atm, I think it is ok for OP to say it. However, the rest of emotional components are not really helping .
^ I think this should be sticked somewhere.
That's probably the most relevant post in this thread.
There is a big gap between what could be, and what is possible at this moment.
What....you mean the stomp your feet and flail your arms approach isn't the best way to get what we want???!! Nowwww ya tell me!
I do wonder sometimes about the people who want content, how much they have actually paid towards this game.
As for the childish 'what have YOU spent,' plenty of us have spent plenty.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
If it is a ground map with ground enemies or at least enemies that aren't immune to NttG my Disciple with with R5 mods in Heroic and Armadillo out damages my Fire Ant with PB2 and GP2 with R6 mods. Quite handily. Not by quite as much now that Hull Scanners are working but still a noticeable amount.
The new GP graphics seem to have the chance to proc epilepsy removed so I won't feel bad using it on the ground in LI but Ego Blade Frenzy does more damage to clustered up ground mobs unless I'm feeling too lazy to even bother targeting things, then I use my Scourge-esque FF and just Epidemic and still do more damage than GP2.
Of course I don't really care that I can get out damaged by someone in Legion/Justice gear and R9 mods so aside from the exploitish nature of some of the weapon mods I don't really mind mk2 vehicles with R9 mods doing it either. The hard taunt of vehicles was annoying though, especially when someone would park the Mega D on the intake without enough healers.
Vehicles 2.0 feels like a balance/stabilization patch so they can look at other things. I'll wait and see what they announce as the next big thing before I throw a temper tantrum. We've got a Foxbat event coming up and I remember there were database issues with adding permanent content so if it's rotating events while they get that sorted out so be it.
I'll sign, but Thundrax put it best: this is "content" now for CO. I doubt we're going to get anything like STO's Dyson Adventure Zone unless PWE sees an investment return that justifies resources put into things we actually want.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
[thread=139701]My old, old guide for Ego Blades. Updated for On: Alert.[/thread]
[thread=154211]The Costume Contest Schedule. Stay up-to-date without having to log in![/thread]
Great post.
We have to understand the business behind making a game. In a "freemium" game like CO, where premium content is purchased with real money, something like 5% of the player base generates something like 90% of the revenue. These players are called "whales", and they're the ones you generally build for.
It's a mistake to assume Cryptic continues to develop vehicles because they aren't listening to their players. Quite the opposite, in fact. I'm certain they're carefully scrutinizing analytic data to see who their "whales" are and what they spend the most money on, and I'd bet all the Questionite in the world that it's vehicles.
What I'd love to see happen is for Cryptic to survey their whales and find out what other things they'd be willing to spend money on. Maybe it's sidekicks, or supergroup headquarters, or purchasable content like instances or zones. It's worth knowing what the rest of the community wants too, but unless you're willing and able to pony up some cash for it, asking for it won't result in growth.
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
While I'd love new instances or zones and would likely pay for them I don't like things that segregate players and paid zones do just that.
Multi-level teams already face content restriction (zone and lair minimums). Getting a group together and then finding out one person hasn't bought that instance would make it even worse.
Adding a free new zone/instance (although I'd personally prefer to see new content added to existing zones first as that would require less work) and selling themed items to go with it I'd be behind all the way with my credit card weeping quietly in the corner.
This is what i've been telling people, ever since CO went f2p. I was insulted and ridiculed for doing so BUT In the end i was right and they were wrong. Thank you very much for confirming, what only a handful of people already knew all along.
---
/SIGNED
Instead of vehicles, cryptic should develop more costume sets for the Z-Store. I doubt that developing clothes requires a greater budget than creating vehicles, which nobody likes anyway.
I'm not sure I qualify as a full-scale whale, but I'm a valuable target.
I have NOT spent hundreds of dollars in CO, probably a little less than $100 in subscription fees since it began.
If the game was thriving and there were items I felt more worth buying, I'd spend a lot more money here.
I will never, ever, buy a vehicle in CO, and it's lessened my chances of spending money on anything else.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
/signed
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
I won't say much but to me...Vehicles are just another TP to my eyes, nothing more, nothing less.
Handle: @drgmstr
"Embrace your dreams"
Come Check Out My PRIMUS Database Page!
So, you want to fly but your core character shouldn't be able to? Maybe he can turn into a Ghost! Maybe he rides a flying motorcycle! Maybe he gets a secondary flight disk! It's all good!
It's this whole 'here's a new separate system that doesn't mix well with other stuff' that is predictably badly designed.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
On to the next shady monetization scheme please!
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
10 char limit
So just not you...
CO needs money to make content, most people won't pay unless there is content. You are a nice addition to the STO, don't get me wrong. But you don't help CO, as I don't help STO.
It's really simple: People = revenue ; revenue = content. If anything we need to pull people into this game not complain about what we have or don't have.
And to cryptics defense they have added more in the last 12month than in the last three years, so I am happy with the way 2014 is headed.
...
Oh please, $100 is plenty. If Cryptic got an extra ten thousand people lining up to spend $100, I think they'd be plenty happy...
The point is that I certainly have the money and willingness to spend money on MMOs. Cryptic MMOs, even!
I also spent $80 on Neverwinter, for that matter, and my interest died there, too.
So... if Cryptic bothered to make CO a bit more of what I would like, I'd be pouring money into it. That's my point.
I'm not someone sitting here going 'do what I want, I'll spend money!' and, you know, having 0 history of ever quite getting around to spending my money. I've spent a lot on STO because they've done a lot, I've spent a bit on CO despite them not doing much at all.
I'm a potential market.
If Cryptic is unwilling to do anything we've suggested, there's not much left to do but remind them, over and over, that the people who have stuck with them this long are still very unhappy.
And that's not much defense. They launched a game with insufficient content, promised more, and then proceeded to not deliver for years.
That they've started doing a little work is great, it's nice to see that the body on the ground is actually still breathing. But they have a huge amount of work to do to get that body up and dancing.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I wanted my antihero from the streets to deal out justice with her shotgun on the back of a grungy, rattling old motorcycle sometimes. I wanted my flashy cyborg martial artist to get on a bike like the one from Akira, then leap off and facekick some bad guys.
What did we get? Rocket-powered bikes with overpowered weapons and no visual customization, which lock out our powers, disable toggles, dismiss our summons etc. Devices for hovering outside of Mega-Terak's range and bombing him into paste without risk.
So it's gone off in the wrong direction. Meanwhile we haven't had a new powerset or new stuff beyond an Alert since... well, a long time.
I want new power sets. I want more new costumes (not tied to lockboxes, hopefully) and travel powers, and I want new zones to bring justice to. I don't want more vehicles or more vehicle-based events or excuses to use vehicles to bypass the much more in-depth, interesting, customizable and fun business of being a superhero.
Vehicles should have been a nice little side addition, not a focus.
How 'bout a new power set or two instead of vehicle tweaks and variants?
You're a lunatic with a mad man's dream of a milk proof robot!
___________________________________________________
When I want to play with loading weapons/gear into a vehicle, I'll log into Star Trek Online.
I play Champions because I want to create a being that has wondrous powers/abilities of their own that set them apart from "normal humanity". Aliens, mutants, wizards, gods, combat masters, artificial lifeforms, altered humans, psychics, paranormals, super naturals, etc.
I love the ability to mix powers, costumes, shape/measurements, auras, and even a little RP to make a fun/amazing character that's enjoyable to play. I like the animations and FX. I like playing in a four-color comic book style world.
And yes, there are heroes that are known for their rides (among other things): Batman (The Batmobile, Batwing, Batcycle, Bat-etc, etc, etc.), Michael Knight (K.I.T.T.), Tron (The Lightcycle), Green Hornet (Black Beauty), Speed Racer (Mach 5), Wonder Woman (Invisible Jet), Electra Woman and Dyna Girl (ElectraCar), and so on. And I do play gadgeteers and gear-oriented heroes. I have even considered purchasing a vehicle for use with one or two, but so far I have not liked the colors/designs of what's been released, and since I can't choose the appearance to match my hero's theme, I don't buy.
Vehicles: No Visual Customization, No Sale.
Even so, I have no intention of only playing vehicle-oriented toons. My heroes can fly, teleport, run at hyper-speeds, or otherwise have TRAVEL POWERS that get them from A-to-B.
Further, there isn't even a handful of missions that use vehicles. Nor should there be, this isn't Vehicles Online, there are other games that do that better.
I don't have a problem spending money on the game. I bought a Lifetime Subscription. I support the Zen store: I've purchased all the costumes, all the hideouts, a couple of the devices, I love and have/will continue to buy auras (and extra slots). I don't even mind lockboxes and have purchased a fair share of keys (both to open boxes and sell for Globals). The Drifter Store is fine, too, now that Salvage is account-bound.
However, please stop the development of vehicles, and spend Champions Online's limited resources on other content in the game.
Thank you.
When XP earnings during a Double-XP Weekend still feel like I'm underperforming,
there's something terribly wrong with the reward system...
You can find/contact me in game as @PatricianVetinari. Original Join Date: Feb 2010.
It's very convenient to have that policy after scavenging from CO. Where was this view on spending when CO was making far more money? I'm sure STO was always doing as well as it is now and Cryptic would never take resources from another game if it was under performing.
I'm going to point out that the number of people who post on forums is a very low portion of the total game population. We are probably 5% of the player base at best. The real question is: Do the other 95% of the people hate vehicles?
Before someone asks where I got my information: here you go. If you just want the quote, skip to 6:00. The whole talk is relevant to the underlying issue in this post.
As for the original question asked: I've said several time I wanted Cryptic to finish all of the half-assed stuff in the game. Vehicles are some of that half-**** stuff. Am I a bit sad that vehicles where chosen first? Yes, but it is what I asked for. Do I give a crap about vehicles? Not really. Do I want to see other things focused on that are not vehicles or lockboxes? Yes, specifically, all of the other half finished stuff in the game.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
'I'm Ghost Cowboy, what are my options?'
"Well, there's this grav tank..."
'... Do you have a horse? Maybe even a robot horse?'
"Swoop bike?"
'... meh.'
Same with mages, demons, angels, werewolves, vampires, sentient fudge, fungus heroes, and countless others.
Now, if some of the vehicles had magic or other skins to them, my core complaints would remain, but at least the thematic element wouldn't be so terrible. Or if vehicles were balanced with regular powers.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
I don't $ACTIVITY_YOU_LIKE, please stop the development of $ACTIVITY_YOU_LIKE.
Seriously Cryptic, the vehicles either need to include full on customization in their very next update or stop hogging all of your dev time. When we wanted vehicles we thought we would get something with customization equal to that of our in-game avatars, but you must have either misheard us or lost steam midway through the job.
I've heard it all before "We can't do new zones due to lack of manpower and resources" but in the very least you can keep up work on costume sets, missions, power sets, hideouts, everything that CO was initially about, all the vehicle stuff was "nice" in the beginning but now this new update is just downright insulting. Vehicles are getting old guys, and obviously updating them without the customization we expected is getting you nowhere.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Hope1 ingame. PRIMUS Database Characters
It's trickier than that, even.
How many people have left due to things like vehicles (and other abandoned stuff, like Nemeses)?
How many people might come back if they shifted focus?
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?
# Your .bashrc may vary
export ACTIVITY_YOU_LIKE='distraction from core game'
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
I don't even think Cryptic knows. (This is actually talked about in the video I linked.) I've left a few times. I've done it in several games. NEVER has a company sent me a email asking me to share my experiences or why I stopped playing. Not when I left WoW, not when I left Rift, not when I left LoL, and not when I left CO.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
A lot of these factors are impossible to nail down without god-like powers, and trying to figure out what the best course of action is, well... yeah. Dart board.
What I'm less sympathetic about is the lack of faith and vision -- PWE needs to step back, let someone at Cryptic with a vision and a budget follow through.
Also, Cryptic needs to have faith in their game to actually finish a project, rather than leave the thing full of fits and starts, like Nemeses and lairs.
Wicks and Things: NW-DI4FMZRR4 : The Fenwick merchant family has lost a caravan! Can you help?
Beggar's Hollow: NW-DR6YG4J2L : Someone, or something, has stolen away many of the Fenwicks' children! Can you find out what happened to them?
Into the Fen Wood: NW-DL89DRG7B : Enter the heart of the forest. Can you discover the secret of the Fen Wood?