Dodge is meant to be a chance, and should be kept that way. 100% dodge should be reserved for active defenses and only them.
Avoidance should also be looked at. It could use a much stricter DR rate, 90% is a bit much.
I share the same feeling. Perpetual 90% damage reduction (before adding damage resistance) is miles above other forms of mitigation. Currently (both on Live and the PTS), there are multiple ways to achieve this.
If part of the purpose of the upcoming adjustments is to balance the most extreme cases, the percentage caps for total possible Dodge and Avoidance need consideration. With the potential for stacked cooldown reduction, I would even advocate setting Masterful Dodge at a less-than-100% dodge rate.
OK. Telling people how to build with a certain passive is a NO NO. Giving and opinion is fine. Making it seem like it's other peoples fault if they don't achieve what "YOU" think they want is also a NO NO.
Now moving on.
My point is Lightning reflexes is the flagship passive for dodge, correct? The whole LIGHTNING part gives that away... It should be MUCH higher than other passives using dodge. Dodge is ALL it has. No buffs to offence. No Absorbance to damage. No Fair game.
Dodge only. 50% base at r3 is still a big nerf to the current live set-up.
Yes, you can get your dodge higher with buffs and such. But, then every LR toon would also look and play the same mostly. Not what this game needs, there are already those builds with a certain passive that starts with an "A" and people call those copy builds because they take at least the 4 same powers.
That would suck. That extra 10% doesn't seem like much, but it is , IMHO. And if you don't even use a LR build and have not at least tested it out, you have no legs to stand on telling others what is enough for them or not. It's all an opinion. And mine is, 40% is too low. And 50% doesn't break anything.
OK. Telling people how to build with a certain passive is a NO NO. Giving and opinion is fine. Making it seem like it's other peoples fault if they don't achieve what "YOU" think they want is also a NO NO.
Now moving on.
My point is Lightning reflexes is the flagship passive for dodge, correct? The whole LIGHTNING part gives that away... It should be MUCH higher than other passives using dodge. Dodge is ALL it has. No buffs to offence. No Absorbance to damage. No Fair game.
Dodge only. 50% base at r3 is still a big nerf to the current live set-up.
Yes, you can get your dodge higher with buffs and such. But, then every LR toon would also look and play the same mostly. Not what this game needs, there are already those builds with a certain passive that starts with an "A" and people call those copy builds because they take at least the 4 same powers.
That would suck. That extra 10% doesn't seem like much, but it is , IMHO. And if you don't even use a LR build and have not at least tested it out, you have no legs to stand on telling others what is enough for them or not. It's all an opinion. And mine is, 40% is too low. And 50% doesn't break anything.
Currently Fluidity (Rank 2) + LR on PTS = 90% dodge.
You could effectively throw BCR in the mix alongside LR + Fluidity (R2 + Advantage) + Devour Essence and be a good tank (along side some other powers ofc).
As it stands LR does really have a higher dodge bar than any other passive.
Granted it means you cannot attack, but you could just simply put BCR on and use it as a mini - AD of sorts with the Flow Like The River (Should be Flow like Water ) Advantage.
OK. Telling people how to build with a certain passive is a NO NO. Giving and opinion is fine. Making it seem like it's other peoples fault if they don't achieve what "YOU" think they want is also a NO NO.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
Wait. When I said the whole "No No" thing, it was in response mostly to post #98.
I wasn't calling anybody out in particular, more of a reminder of "Everybody is not the same". And different ways of seeing things is OK. And not "One" persons view, including my own, is the only way to see a situation.
Didn't you read my post or kaizerin's post? It certainly is worth taking, if you expect to take LR as your only form of defence and be able to tank then you're not thinking about all of this correctly. Can you do this with defiant? No, with defiant you NEED CON as a stat for it to work.
Not having to build around certain skills causes CO to lack builds and making them just a collection of good powers. LR is well worth taking as it is on the PTS corrently, you can't reach that same amount of dodge with anything different. LR with some other form of dodge, even just one will get your dodge and avoidance far above satisfactory. Then by taking more tanky powers ontop of this to give damage reduction and others you can be pretty much unkillable even if they managed to hit past your dodge.
I don't see where you are getting everything you say from, it would be good if you could back it up. I'm not trying to discourage creativity in builds, I am all for making CO more creative that it already is. The creative element is one of the main reasons I play CO.
Didn't you read my post or kaizerin's post? It certainly is worth taking, if you expect to take LR as your only form of defence and be able to tank then you're not thinking about all of this correctly. Can you do this with defiant? No, with defiant you NEED CON as a stat for it to work.
Not having to build around certain skills causes CO to lack builds and making them just a collection of good powers. LR is well worth taking as it is on the PTS corrently, you can't reach that same amount of dodge with anything different. LR with some other form of dodge, even just one will get your dodge and avoidance far above satisfactory. Then by taking more tanky powers ontop of this to give damage reduction and others you can be pretty much unkillable even if they managed to hit past your dodge.
I don't see where you are getting everything you say from, it would be good if you could back it up. I'm not trying to discourage creativity in builds, I am all for making CO more creative that it already is. The creative element is one of the main reasons I play CO.
So, with Defiant you have to stack a stat, you'd likely want to stack anyways. With LR, you have to use a power choice.
o.O
My question is, why put diminishing returns on the lower dodge powers? If LR can get to say 60% Dodge Chance before suffering DR, shouldn't other powers that are similar be able to stack to 60% before suffering DR?
So if I'm following the discussion correctly LR is fine as long as you get other powers to boost Dodge/Avoidance and of course some self heals.
This dependency on other powers to get the best results out of a passive is not so different from the other passives:
-PFF works when you build around it, but is severely lacking (or if u wish unforgiving) otherwise.
-Regeneration needs Resurgence, but that doubles as a strong self heal.
-Defiance needs only CON, but if you want to tank no passive aside from PFF allows you to skip CON.
-Invulnerability does not need anything.
So Def and Inv are the only take-and-forget passive for casual tanking; the only two at least that do not force you to take additional powers.
The problem that I see with a relative nerf to LR is that, on Live, I found that LR is already less forgiving than any other passive besides PFF. So, while I'm sure that a dedicated build can really make it good, maybe raise the numbers a bit to make it more helpful for new players or people without R7+ mods could be a good idea.
On a side note, wouldn't a new defensive form be good? I love IDF, but a personal Form that does not help others and can be brought in line with the rest would be good. i.e. an effect +energy return and stat dependency, perhaps END since it has no dedicated Form: maybe boost Resistance or Dodge by a % and damage by half%.
______________________________________________________________ My Characters
Why does everyone keep saying "You have to build around PFF"? It is completely untrue. Every build I have is themed and I can swap all of the passives on my characters for PFF and the functionality would not change. On most, it would be a survivability increase. My main, Protogen, was built around tanking with dual pistols and quickly moving across the play field with lunges/reverse lunges. I guess he would be considered to have been "built around PFF" because he has field surge. Oh noes!
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
I don't recall Regeneration actually needing Resurgence as some of my builds don't need that AD.
Also taking fluidity will make you lose out dps and fluidity itself does not have all the damage reduction benefits of a regular block and you need to hold it for a few seconds for it to take effect before you can attack with it.
The last time i checked this forums on fluidity, most people were underwhelmed by it and now some people are saying it's good?
waiting to hear about the next patch is killing me. lol I'm on the edge of my seat to see what they'll do to dodge now, if the dodge nerf effects vehicles
(which I hope they were some how smart enough to separate from players seeing as how yes you can mod gear and take many powers to support dodge as a character but not as a vehicle, limited room for mods and I'm not sure there's more than one weapon that DOES add dodge, if even that, then it's all limited by the vehicles slot room in the first place, really they should be like companions in NW, get the one you want, and upgrade it's "rank" with Q so any vehicle you want can be a 8 slotted if you work at it, evens it out a bit and helps make it more about what you put in it and which look you want.),
as well as more info on the LTS Vet rewards thing, since it doesn't seem to work on test and I'm just dying to see it hit live before anything else. (if for no other reason than I'd like them to take their time and really get Dodge right before forcing it on every one, while LTS rewards will only affect some and what not and might even boost LTS sales)
Didn't you read my post or kaizerin's post? It certainly is worth taking, if you expect to take LR as your only form of defence and be able to tank then you're not thinking about all of this correctly. Can you do this with defiant? No, with defiant you NEED CON as a stat for it to work.
Not having to build around certain skills causes CO to lack builds and making them just a collection of good powers. LR is well worth taking as it is on the PTS corrently, you can't reach that same amount of dodge with anything different. LR with some other form of dodge, even just one will get your dodge and avoidance far above satisfactory. Then by taking more tanky powers ontop of this to give damage reduction and others you can be pretty much unkillable even if they managed to hit past your dodge.
I don't see where you are getting everything you say from, it would be good if you could back it up. I'm not trying to discourage creativity in builds, I am all for making CO more creative that it already is. The creative element is one of the main reasons I play CO.
Back it up? No need. Common sense backs it up. Look at the responses !!
on Live i just stack defense for my LR builds. And i do quite well. I take "ONE" dodge help power most times. Maybe EM or the MA Block.
Now, going to the pst, just to get close to what i "WAS" getting already for a passive that's suppose to be the clear leader in dodge, i have to take way more dodge stacking powers.
Limiting other ways to build. Less diversity. And if you can't see it. Or refuse to see what I and many others are saying so be it. But I'm not blind. This is not a good thing for LR.
You have been given reasons by many. Examples even. You may not agree, but don't make it seem all is fine and you have the answers. Because so far, you don't. Saying things like "Didn't you read my post" as if that's the only way to see this is insulting and too arrogant for my taste.
Back it up? No need. Common sense backs it up. Look at the responses !!
on Live i just stack defense for my LR builds. And i do quite well. I take "ONE" dodge help power most times. Maybe EM or the MA Block.
Now, going to the pst, just to get close to what i "WAS" getting already for a passive that's suppose to be the clear leader in dodge, i have to take way more dodge stacking powers.
Limiting other ways to build. Less diversity. And if you can't see it. Or refuse to see what I and many others are saying so be it. But I'm not blind. This is not a good thing for LR.
You have been given reasons by many. Examples even. You may not agree, but don't make it seem all is fine and you have the answers. Because so far, you don't. Saying things like "Didn't you read my post" as if that's the only way to see this is insulting and too arrogant for my taste.
Just saying.
And in my post I showed how you could get 90% dodge easily up pretty much all the time with 90% avoidance. Everyone keeps saying add 10% but do you realise how broken 100% dodge chance with 90% avoidance is?
I don't see how this change is limiting customization. I am pretty sure PvE is the same because PvP wise this will open up much more option and will most likely change the current FOTM. On NW people said that a 50% dodge chance was OP, funny that.
simple. you need either the best gear possible or CERTAIN POWERS to get that. or both. so much for diversity.
^^
Thank you.
Tired of trying to talk to certain people who will only see it one way, and only their way to build. Not even bothering to think that the person might not want 100% dodge or even 90% for that matter. But in their narrow way of seeing things... "What else could they want" right?
Missing the point entirely.
Anyway, moving beyond banging head into brick wall.
I will make it "SUPER" easy to understand. I am all for the dodge change.
I think they had it right on the pts, before this last pst change. Roll back to the last patch.
Much better for everybody. IMHO.
simple. you need either the best gear possible or CERTAIN POWERS to get that. or both. so much for diversity.
Why do you NEED it? You could just as easily get a stack of defiant and stack some resistance to keep the 70% dodge chance while also being defensive. You could also try being in STR primary with lots of CON while still having 70% dodge chance then increase heals.
Why do you need 90% dodge chance for? 0.o
EDIT: FYI the previous change to dodge actually buffed LR, LR in no way needed buffing.
Remember everyone.
It's better to use "IMO" you don't need it. Or "It doesn't need this, IMO".
Very important. For you must remember "you" are not everyone. And what "you" think is not necessarily what somebody else thinks. Or if you don't "Understand" it doesn't devalue the "Other" persons views.
Remember to be respectful of others. IMHO, this helps open up dialogue much more than the "I will tell you what's best" attitude, even when admitting you don't quite get it... Wow.
Anyway, we will all have to deal with what's coming. This thread is here to discus the changes. No "ONE" person has the answers yet. And things may yet change again.
Some like it. Some don't. But at least, something is being done. When was the last time we could say that?
People seem to forget that LR doesn't just give dodge chance and avoidance... it also gives 5% dodge chance every time you take a hit. LR is its own supporting power :P
People seem to forget that LR doesn't just give dodge chance and avoidance... it also gives 5% dodge chance every time you take a hit. LR is its own supporting power :P
The very same buff that gets removed when you do dodge an attack
The very same buff that gets removed when you do dodge an attack
The problem is that you all seem to think like this. They seem to think that a single undodged attack will kill you. In PvE even with no resistance and 5k (for some reason) you are unlikely to die, in PvP if this happens and an attack gets through 90% dodge then most likely you'll fall to pretty low health, if not die. Although are you saying that you want to have a passive that single handedly give all the defence? There are other defences in CO including healing.
To what spinnytop said, people also forget that it gives a crazy resistance to DOT's making the counter to dodge tanks in PvP (using lots of DOT's) useless. Plus they totally skip over the part where they can resist a 90% flat amount of all damage for 15 seconds if they use MD with LR, while also being resistant to dodge this pretty much gives you god mode for 15 seconds. If you add an extra 10% dodge to LR as it currently is on the PTS it wouldn't be remotely difficult to pretty much get the same 24/7 before even using MD. You could also then have the option to be fairly tanky resistance and Hp/heals wise as it is before adding ontop that crazy avoidance and dodge.
IMO lovehammer you are being just as single minded. We all have our own opinions about this although I personally believe this 10% would break LR and this is why I am so against it. Breaking LR would mean by taking LR you could be pretty much in god mode taking only 10% of all damage.
Actually, I'm being very open minded. Saying, everybody has an opinion and should not "Tell" others what they should believe or think on a subject is totally opposite of single minded.
So i call Bs on that. Sorry...
Also, i said i was in favor of the nerf. IMHO, The LR numbers are too low. People, can choose to disagree. It's really that simple. I'm not here to argue about right or wrong as if that means anything when talking about opinions. Sigh... I can only speak from my point of view and my time on the pts, as well as live. Also, the majority of people i know as well as this thread and others seems to say... a raise from 40% would be more accepted than what is currently being offered on the pts. Bring it back to live numbers? Hell no.
The problem is that you all seem to think like this. They seem to think that a single undodged attack will kill you. In PvE even with no resistance and 5k (for some reason) you are unlikely to die, in PvP if this happens and an attack gets through 90% dodge then most likely you'll fall to pretty low health, if not die. Although are you saying that you want to have a passive that single handedly give all the defence? There are other defences in CO including healing.
No, i was thinking that the dodge boost that you get from not dodging attacks was hardly relevant as you can just as easily lose it as you obtain it(with dodge tanks, you will lose it even faster but w/e) .
To what spinnytop said, people also forget that it gives a crazy resistance to DOT's making the counter to dodge tanks in PvP (using lots of DOT's) useless.
DoT's were already made nearly useless in PvP with Invul or other powers that reduces damage by a flat amount. Also i don't seem to recall a time in which DoT's were that good , but i could be wrong
Plus they totally skip over the part where they can resist a 90% flat amount of all damage for 15 seconds if they use MD with LR, while also being resistant to dodge this pretty much gives you god mode for 15 seconds. If you add an extra 10% dodge to LR as it currently is on the PTS it wouldn't be remotely difficult to pretty much get the same 24/7 before even using MD. You could also then have the option to be fairly tanky resistance and Hp/heals wise as it is before adding ontop that crazy avoidance and dodge.
Don't you need either Fluidity or/and Evasive maneuvers to reach 90% in the current PTS?
Also i am not taking sides when it comes to LR at this moment, because we are not getting this update this week and there could be more changes planned
No, i was thinking that the dodge boost that you get from not dodging attacks was hardly relevant as you can just as easily lose it as you obtain it(with dodge tanks, you will lose it even faster but w/e) .
It can still help (a little) if against lots of mobs attacking you at once.
DoT's were already made nearly useless in PvP with Invul or other powers that reduces damage by a flat amount. Also i don't seem to recall a time in which DoT's were that good , but i could be wrong
This made me chuckle, although I must say I can see your point. The fact is that no one in PvP really uses invulnerability currently despite it being a popular PvE power. IDF is the other power that does this and this is in the current 'FOTM' build although some DOT's still hit enough for IDF to only half their damage.
ER mental storm is the current build people are using in PvP as it destroys quarry and AOPM (with dodge gear) toons.
Also i am not taking sides when it comes to LR at this moment, because we are not getting this update this week and there could be more changes planned
This is one of the reasons I am all for these changes, they have said they are doing these changes to get ready for new powers to come into the game. I honestly can't wait to see what they have in mind.
This is one of the reasons I am all for these changes, they have said they are doing these changes to get ready for new powers to come into the game. I honestly can't wait to see what they have in mind.
There was even a hint at a new zone. TT said something like 'without a good foundation we can't add any new zones to the game', with a little different wording.
Though I don't think this will fix things, we still have cooldown reduction (ab)use, and adding to that a high con with ego surge/nimble mind, and you still get 50% extra crit chance half the time. We still have ranged power being far more useful then melee powers, and huge differences in how effective certain sets and powers are, etc.
If after these crit/dodge changes we'd get more changes to properly balancing the underperforming powers, and maybe slightly nerf the overperforming ones, and either add a DR on cooldown reduction or make the alternatives useful, and complete some of the sets with proper energy unlocks and AOE powers, the foundation would start to look a bit better.
Just wondering if we'll ever get to find out how the new offense actually works. It's difficult to tell if something's working as intended, and check for bugs, if you not even sure how the mechanic is implemented.
All I can say is, if it's actually supposed to be a multiplicitive buff, it's bugged.
If it's supposed to be a multiplicitive modifier to additive damage boosts, it's bugged.
It's it's supposed to be a buff at all levels of offense, as implyed by the preview blog, it is not working as intended.
Anything other than that and someone will have to explain how it works.
We have completely reworked how Offense scales and where it applies its damage bonus -
for those interested in the math, we've made Offense's percentile bonus multiply Passive bonuses to damage. The net result is that Offense is more effective, so many heroes will be dealing more damage. These changes will give players some variety when building their heroes: Do you build Critical Hits to deal spike damage, or Offense for more stable sustained output? The choice will be yours.
Because of the capitalization of the word "Passive", I take that to mean that Offense is now multiplicative, but only with the damage bonus from your Slotted Passive. If that's the case, Offense will be more effective for those with an Offensive Passive or Aura of Ebon Destruction, but totally useless for anyone else.
I hope I'm misinterpreting that, because that will destroy the damage output of Tanks that use The Best Defense to deal worthwhile amounts of damage.
_________________________________________________ @flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
He make have explained a summary of what is changing, but he has NOT listed the formulas like he should have.
I'm with Blkjackwilliams on this one. It's foolish to think we can truly help identify issues if we don't have the mathematical order of operations known.
He make have explained a summary of what is changing, but he has NOT listed the formulas like he should have.
I'm with Blkjackwilliams on this one. It's foolish to think we can truly help identify issues if we don't have the mathematical order of operations known.
I am hoping they consider what I stated many patch notes ago, namely to provide a blog which goes into relative detail regarding what has gone on, even more so than the preview blog.
I'm doubtful that there will be something else to go on, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in this instance.
Because of the capitalization of the word "Passive", I take that to mean that Offense is now multiplicative, but only with the damage bonus from your Slotted Passive. If that's the case, Offense will be more effective for those with an Offensive Passive or Aura of Ebon Destruction, but totally useless for anyone else.
I hope I'm misinterpreting that, because that will destroy the damage output of Tanks that use The Best Defense to deal worthwhile amounts of damage.
That's how I thought it worked too, but if you look at the discussion on this thread, more toward the end, you'll see that it's really not doing either, meaning multiplicitive buff vs multiplicitive modifier. That's why I phrased my post the way it did. No matter how it actually works, it's not working as described, and is possibly bugged.
It's acting like a pure multiplicitive buff, when you have no additive buffs. This is something it should not be doing if it worked as described in the blog.
It's not acting like a modifier for buffs either. Higher offense looks to DR less at level 40 (haven't tested other levels) making me believe it's one of the odd targeted buffs (using additive buff level, offense, and character level as target values), which is counter to the description given. It also only has numbers that can be percieved as acting as a modifier in a few of the examples, so if that's how it works, it's not working as described and possibly bugged.
Either way, it's not actually a buff in the low/mid offense range and each instance I've checked has been lower damage than on live, something confirmed by other players who've checked as well.
I really, really want to know how the numbers work for this.
Remember to keep in mind the avoidance that I have. If I simply use MD I become unkillable.
And have you tried that without justice gear and R7 mods? I still seriously doubt that the majority of the people will own it on live, unless the LR toon is their "primary main character"
What if they just got rid of Dimishing Returns for Dodge? The passives would give different (set) dodge bonuses, likely different avoidance ratings, and then just put a hard cap on the Dodge Rating?
Hard Cap dodge at 75%, people can then build for that 75% through passives/gear/power choices.
Maybe let Masterful Dodge and LR's +5% Dodge Chance on every missed dodge, surpass the 75% Hard Cap. Or maybe just MD. Maybe neither regardless...just a flat 75% dodge chance.
This would also allow them to make the Stat Specs that grant Dodge worthwhile!
Mind you, I don't know how easy it would be to hit the 75% dodge cap on Dodge/Avoid passives that arent LR. And I don't know how high one could get Dodge Chance on a different passive character, but I would think they would have to build for avoidance as well, so maybe not that high?
Because of the capitalization of the word "Passive", I take that to mean that Offense is now multiplicative, but only with the damage bonus from your Slotted Passive. If that's the case, Offense will be more effective for those with an Offensive Passive or Aura of Ebon Destruction, but totally useless for anyone else.
I hope I'm misinterpreting that, because that will destroy the damage output of Tanks that use The Best Defense to deal worthwhile amounts of damage.
This is totally incorrect. The long and short of it is that there are 2 damage layers that you guys care about. Both of them are additive.
Passives + Buffs and Crit Severity + Offense.
So if you have a power that deals 1000 base damage, 100% from your passive, 80% from a buff, 100% Crit severity, and 20% Offense bonus you will do the following damage (on a crit and non crit)
Hopefully this helps clarify where offense falls as far as the math goes. *NOTE* This example assumes no debuffs on you and no resistance on the target. Those things getting involved makes the math significantly more complicated, so I have omitted it here.
This is totally incorrect. The long and short of it is that there are 2 damage layers that you guys care about. Both of them are additive.
Passives + Buffs and Crit Severity + Offense.
So if you have a power that deals 1000 base damage, 100% from your passive, 80% from a buff, 100% Crit severity, and 20% Offense bonus you will do the following damage (on a crit and non crit)
Hopefully this helps clarify where offense falls as far as the math goes. *NOTE* This example assumes no debuffs on you and no resistance on the target. Those things getting involved makes the math significantly more complicated, so I have omitted it here.
Then something is wierd. Outside of crits it should act as a purely multiplicitive buff, but in many cases it doesn't.
5.5% from offense should make it 244.76, game displays 245. (Should have taken time to check this yesterday )
128% bonus damage and 6.1% offense: should be 561.23 multiplicitively (232 * 2.28 * 1.061)
It should be 547 by what I thought offense was doing. (232 * (1 + (1.28 * 1.061)))
It actually is: 546 (<- Look at this, two different characters with legit builds that DRed by the same value as their offense, that's why I thought it wasn't applying toward the base)
561 - 546 = 15 -> 15 / 232 = 6.4% (of base) lower
So, adding some more buffs to demonstrate the DR a bit further.
Add 48% more damage from AoED and displayed damage is: 653
It should be 679.4 Multiplicitively (232 * 2.76 * 1.061)
It should be 665 by what I thought it was (232 * (1 + (1.76 * 1.061)))
679.4 - 653 = 26.4 -> 11.4% (of base) lower or 6.1% offense boost acting like 2.03% offense boost By "Offense Boost" I mean a multiplicitive boost
R3 AoED (69%): 693 displayed
Should be 731 Multiplicitively (232 * 2.97 * 1.061)
Should be 717 if it worked like I thought (232 * (1 + (1.97 * 1.061)))
731 - 693 = 38 -> 16.4% (of base) lower or 6.1% offense boost acting like .58% (I **** you not) offense boost.By "Offense Boost" I mean a multiplicitive boost
Quick look with R3 AoED and 15% offense instead:
Displayed: 762
Should be 792 multiplicitively (232 * 2.97 * 1.15) or a 15% offense boost acting like a 10.6% offense boost.By "Offense Boost" I mean a multiplicitive boost
Should be 758 with what I thought it did (232 * (1 +(1.97 * 1.15)))
It must be bugged, because for some reason changing the values of your offense and additive boosts is changing the relative benefit of the offense boost. In one case 15% offense is acting like a 10.6% multiplicitive boost. In another 6.1% offense is acting like a .58% multiplicitive buff.
Also, all these numbers were taken from in-game, from the power's tool tip, not from floating damage numbers, so resitance and debuffs are not a factor.
Are you sure you calculated for every factor? Stats adding Melee bonus, Role bonus, etc? All of these things fit it. Im not going to post the entire formula, but remember that you cant just look at it in a vacuum. I would love to demystify some amount of this, but at this moment I cant really do that safely. I would double check that you have a good test case because in all of my constructed test cases it is doing exactly what it should.
Are you sure you calculated for every factor? Stats adding Melee bonus, Role bonus, etc? All of these things fit it. Im not going to post the entire formula, but remember that you cant just look at it in a vacuum. I would love to demystify some amount of this, but at this moment I cant really do that safely. I would double check that you have a good test case because in all of my constructed test cases it is doing exactly what it should.
Ok, so in the name of getting everybody on "the same-ish page" is it possible for a player on PTS to recreate your "constructed test case"? I see people in here testing on Kiga, test dummies, Teliosaurus, and Bloodmoon recently. Some people say this is a good test, some say this is a bad test. So Crush, to cut down on all these longwinded book-posts(which I am also guilty of I'll admit) where should the bar be set for data collection?
P.S. The more the merrier on details and explanations please. :biggrin:
P.S.S. Thanks for the forum posts.
Ok, so in the name of getting everybody on "the same-ish page" is it possible for a player on PTS to recreate your "constructed test case"? I see people in here testing on Kiga, test dummies, Teliosaurus, and Bloodmoon recently. Some people say this is a good test, some say this is a bad test. So Crush, to cut down on all these longwinded book-posts(which I am also guilty of I'll admit) where should the bar be set for data collection?
P.S. The more the merrier on details and explanations please. :biggrin:
P.S.S. Thanks for the forum posts.
Good question. The general test case I am using is on a Regen Dummy (mine don't die, but they should be the same) or reading a tooltip. I remove my superstats and power choices and slowly introduce the stat in a vacuum (using dev powers). This can be roughly approximated by introducing a "dump stat" (i.e. one that wont affect any damage output) and sitting in hybrid role.
As a side note, I also do run everything through a built character and a set of spreadsheets I build relating to that build so I can do the math as well.
So while it would be amazing for you guys to see a 1:1 correlation to a damage bonus and its output, that is unlikely. The Tl;DR of the offense change is, Offense will feel MORE potent than before, because in the majority of cases it no longer rams headfirst into diminishing returns all the time.
Are you sure you calculated for every factor? Stats adding Melee bonus, Role bonus, etc? All of these things fit it. Im not going to post the entire formula, but remember that you cant just look at it in a vacuum. I would love to demystify some amount of this, but at this moment I cant really do that safely. I would double check that you have a good test case because in all of my constructed test cases it is doing exactly what it should.
Hybrid role, no stars, 128% bonus damage was my super stats damage bonus and strength melee damage bonus, and no specs. Justice gear and a condemning belt with 17 offense (for the 6.1% example not the 5.5%), no form.
Appreciate my sexy, because I hopped onto the PTS and stripped down for you.
Note that Aura of Ebon Destruction is not slotted.
I have no buffs outside Attributes and offense, I have no stars, but the tooltip wouldn't show on the Screencap.
Also, if it's acting as a multiplicitive buff in the form of :
If I missed a buff, and it was working as described, wouldn't the actual displayed damage be higher than expected, not lower?
I.E I'm expecting 561.23 damage with 128% additive boosts, 232 base damage displayed with no stats, and 6.1% from offense -> 232 * (1 + 1.28) * (1.061) = 561.23
Displayed damage is 546
If I'm missing a buff, or the buff is working as intended, the actual displayed damage should be > 561.23 should it not?
The core assumption I am not seeing a reason for is how you are getting the base damage of the power? Any time you see a number in the in game UI you are seeing some kind of math acting on it. What is most likely is that one of the bonuses is already applied to it and your theoretical math is not accounting for that. Outside of that I cant really reproduce your error (because I have tools you dont sadly to introduce the elements of the math one at a time). This might be a case where you just have to take my word for it
The core assumption I am not seeing a reason for is how you are getting the base damage of the power? Any time you see a number in the in game UI you are seeing some kind of math acting on it. What is most likely is that one of the bonuses is already applied to it and your theoretical math is not accounting for that. Outside of that I cant really reproduce your error (because I have tools you dont sadly to introduce the elements of the math one at a time). This might be a case where you just have to take my word for it
Fair enough.
If it helps, I got the base damage by doing a full respec, removing all powers specs and other such stats. I was base 5 in everything, with no stars, no super stats, no gear, and in hybrid role. Basically I stripped as much as I could as a player, without dev powers.
Means the only buff that could be acting on it is strengths melee buff scaled for 5 points of strength. Unless there's something hidden that influences the power.
That should be pretty darn close to base damage.
The only thing that's holding me up is how strangely the numbers are moving, despite not having anything that should be on the level of offense.
Also, I really do appreciate you taking the time to help us, if not understand, at least come to terms with how the mechanic is working.
Comments
A question, did you have MD and a decent amount of cooldown reduction on that defiance build?
I share the same feeling. Perpetual 90% damage reduction (before adding damage resistance) is miles above other forms of mitigation. Currently (both on Live and the PTS), there are multiple ways to achieve this.
If part of the purpose of the upcoming adjustments is to balance the most extreme cases, the percentage caps for total possible Dodge and Avoidance need consideration. With the potential for stacked cooldown reduction, I would even advocate setting Masterful Dodge at a less-than-100% dodge rate.
Now moving on.
My point is Lightning reflexes is the flagship passive for dodge, correct? The whole LIGHTNING part gives that away... It should be MUCH higher than other passives using dodge. Dodge is ALL it has. No buffs to offence. No Absorbance to damage. No Fair game.
Dodge only. 50% base at r3 is still a big nerf to the current live set-up.
Yes, you can get your dodge higher with buffs and such. But, then every LR toon would also look and play the same mostly. Not what this game needs, there are already those builds with a certain passive that starts with an "A" and people call those copy builds because they take at least the 4 same powers.
That would suck. That extra 10% doesn't seem like much, but it is , IMHO. And if you don't even use a LR build and have not at least tested it out, you have no legs to stand on telling others what is enough for them or not. It's all an opinion. And mine is, 40% is too low. And 50% doesn't break anything.
Currently Fluidity (Rank 2) + LR on PTS = 90% dodge.
You could effectively throw BCR in the mix alongside LR + Fluidity (R2 + Advantage) + Devour Essence and be a good tank (along side some other powers ofc).
As it stands LR does really have a higher dodge bar than any other passive.
Granted it means you cannot attack, but you could just simply put BCR on and use it as a mini - AD of sorts with the Flow Like The River (Should be Flow like Water
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Did YOU read his post?
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Yet this remains somewhat true for high DPS combinations...if you want high DPS you must take this with this and that.
You can keep rolling your eyes till they roll into your skull, I really don't care.
My post was an opinion, a suggestion if you will. I wasn't forcing anyone to take any powers.
Fluidity will likely be brought down in values anyway..
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I wasn't calling anybody out in particular, more of a reminder of "Everybody is not the same". And different ways of seeing things is OK. And not "One" persons view, including my own, is the only way to see a situation.
No harm meant. Sorry if it came across that way.
Make Lightning Reflexes worth taking.
Didn't you read my post or kaizerin's post? It certainly is worth taking, if you expect to take LR as your only form of defence and be able to tank then you're not thinking about all of this correctly. Can you do this with defiant? No, with defiant you NEED CON as a stat for it to work.
Not having to build around certain skills causes CO to lack builds and making them just a collection of good powers. LR is well worth taking as it is on the PTS corrently, you can't reach that same amount of dodge with anything different. LR with some other form of dodge, even just one will get your dodge and avoidance far above satisfactory. Then by taking more tanky powers ontop of this to give damage reduction and others you can be pretty much unkillable even if they managed to hit past your dodge.
I don't see where you are getting everything you say from, it would be good if you could back it up. I'm not trying to discourage creativity in builds, I am all for making CO more creative that it already is. The creative element is one of the main reasons I play CO.
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So, with Defiant you have to stack a stat, you'd likely want to stack anyways. With LR, you have to use a power choice.
o.O
My question is, why put diminishing returns on the lower dodge powers? If LR can get to say 60% Dodge Chance before suffering DR, shouldn't other powers that are similar be able to stack to 60% before suffering DR?
This dependency on other powers to get the best results out of a passive is not so different from the other passives:
-PFF works when you build around it, but is severely lacking (or if u wish unforgiving) otherwise.
-Regeneration needs Resurgence, but that doubles as a strong self heal.
-Defiance needs only CON, but if you want to tank no passive aside from PFF allows you to skip CON.
-Invulnerability does not need anything.
So Def and Inv are the only take-and-forget passive for casual tanking; the only two at least that do not force you to take additional powers.
The problem that I see with a relative nerf to LR is that, on Live, I found that LR is already less forgiving than any other passive besides PFF. So, while I'm sure that a dedicated build can really make it good, maybe raise the numbers a bit to make it more helpful for new players or people without R7+ mods could be a good idea.
On a side note, wouldn't a new defensive form be good? I love IDF, but a personal Form that does not help others and can be brought in line with the rest would be good. i.e. an effect +energy return and stat dependency, perhaps END since it has no dedicated Form: maybe boost Resistance or Dodge by a % and damage by half%.
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Also taking fluidity will make you lose out dps and fluidity itself does not have all the damage reduction benefits of a regular block and you need to hold it for a few seconds for it to take effect before you can attack with it.
The last time i checked this forums on fluidity, most people were underwhelmed by it and now some people are saying it's good?
(which I hope they were some how smart enough to separate from players seeing as how yes you can mod gear and take many powers to support dodge as a character but not as a vehicle, limited room for mods and I'm not sure there's more than one weapon that DOES add dodge, if even that, then it's all limited by the vehicles slot room in the first place, really they should be like companions in NW, get the one you want, and upgrade it's "rank" with Q so any vehicle you want can be a 8 slotted if you work at it, evens it out a bit and helps make it more about what you put in it and which look you want.),
as well as more info on the LTS Vet rewards thing, since it doesn't seem to work on test and I'm just dying to see it hit live before anything else.
on Live i just stack defense for my LR builds. And i do quite well. I take "ONE" dodge help power most times. Maybe EM or the MA Block.
Now, going to the pst, just to get close to what i "WAS" getting already for a passive that's suppose to be the clear leader in dodge, i have to take way more dodge stacking powers.
Limiting other ways to build. Less diversity. And if you can't see it. Or refuse to see what I and many others are saying so be it. But I'm not blind. This is not a good thing for LR.
You have been given reasons by many. Examples even. You may not agree, but don't make it seem all is fine and you have the answers. Because so far, you don't. Saying things like "Didn't you read my post" as if that's the only way to see this is insulting and too arrogant for my taste.
Just saying.
And in my post I showed how you could get 90% dodge easily up pretty much all the time with 90% avoidance. Everyone keeps saying add 10% but do you realise how broken 100% dodge chance with 90% avoidance is?
I don't see how this change is limiting customization. I am pretty sure PvE is the same because PvP wise this will open up much more option and will most likely change the current FOTM. On NW people said that a 50% dodge chance was OP, funny that.
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Thank you.
Tired of trying to talk to certain people who will only see it one way, and only their way to build. Not even bothering to think that the person might not want 100% dodge or even 90% for that matter. But in their narrow way of seeing things... "What else could they want" right?
Missing the point entirely.
Anyway, moving beyond banging head into brick wall.
I will make it "SUPER" easy to understand. I am all for the dodge change.
I think they had it right on the pts, before this last pst change. Roll back to the last patch.
Much better for everybody. IMHO.
Done.
Why do you NEED it? You could just as easily get a stack of defiant and stack some resistance to keep the 70% dodge chance while also being defensive. You could also try being in STR primary with lots of CON while still having 70% dodge chance then increase heals.
Why do you need 90% dodge chance for? 0.o
EDIT: FYI the previous change to dodge actually buffed LR, LR in no way needed buffing.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
It's better to use "IMO" you don't need it. Or "It doesn't need this, IMO".
Very important. For you must remember "you" are not everyone. And what "you" think is not necessarily what somebody else thinks. Or if you don't "Understand" it doesn't devalue the "Other" persons views.
Remember to be respectful of others. IMHO, this helps open up dialogue much more than the "I will tell you what's best" attitude, even when admitting you don't quite get it... Wow.
Anyway, we will all have to deal with what's coming. This thread is here to discus the changes. No "ONE" person has the answers yet. And things may yet change again.
Some like it. Some don't. But at least, something is being done. When was the last time we could say that?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
The very same buff that gets removed when you do dodge an attack
The problem is that you all seem to think like this. They seem to think that a single undodged attack will kill you. In PvE even with no resistance and 5k (for some reason) you are unlikely to die, in PvP if this happens and an attack gets through 90% dodge then most likely you'll fall to pretty low health, if not die. Although are you saying that you want to have a passive that single handedly give all the defence? There are other defences in CO including healing.
To what spinnytop said, people also forget that it gives a crazy resistance to DOT's making the counter to dodge tanks in PvP (using lots of DOT's) useless. Plus they totally skip over the part where they can resist a 90% flat amount of all damage for 15 seconds if they use MD with LR, while also being resistant to dodge this pretty much gives you god mode for 15 seconds. If you add an extra 10% dodge to LR as it currently is on the PTS it wouldn't be remotely difficult to pretty much get the same 24/7 before even using MD. You could also then have the option to be fairly tanky resistance and Hp/heals wise as it is before adding ontop that crazy avoidance and dodge.
IMO lovehammer you are being just as single minded. We all have our own opinions about this although I personally believe this 10% would break LR and this is why I am so against it. Breaking LR would mean by taking LR you could be pretty much in god mode taking only 10% of all damage.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
So i call Bs on that. Sorry...
Also, i said i was in favor of the nerf. IMHO, The LR numbers are too low. People, can choose to disagree. It's really that simple. I'm not here to argue about right or wrong as if that means anything when talking about opinions. Sigh... I can only speak from my point of view and my time on the pts, as well as live. Also, the majority of people i know as well as this thread and others seems to say... a raise from 40% would be more accepted than what is currently being offered on the pts. Bring it back to live numbers? Hell no.
Over 40% at r3. For me, and many others... yes!
DoT's were already made nearly useless in PvP with Invul or other powers that reduces damage by a flat amount. Also i don't seem to recall a time in which DoT's were that good , but i could be wrong
Don't you need either Fluidity or/and Evasive maneuvers to reach 90% in the current PTS?
Also i am not taking sides when it comes to LR at this moment, because we are not getting this update this week and there could be more changes planned
It can still help (a little) if against lots of mobs attacking you at once.
This made me chuckle, although I must say I can see your point. The fact is that no one in PvP really uses invulnerability currently despite it being a popular PvE power. IDF is the other power that does this and this is in the current 'FOTM' build although some DOT's still hit enough for IDF to only half their damage.
ER mental storm is the current build people are using in PvP as it destroys quarry and AOPM (with dodge gear) toons.
Check my earlier post for dodge chances.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showpost.php?p=3721441&postcount=98
Remember to keep in mind the avoidance that I have. If I simply use MD I become unkillable.
This is one of the reasons I am all for these changes, they have said they are doing these changes to get ready for new powers to come into the game. I honestly can't wait to see what they have in mind.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's (starting from post nerf PTS team duels)
There was even a hint at a new zone. TT said something like 'without a good foundation we can't add any new zones to the game', with a little different wording.
Though I don't think this will fix things, we still have cooldown reduction (ab)use, and adding to that a high con with ego surge/nimble mind, and you still get 50% extra crit chance half the time. We still have ranged power being far more useful then melee powers, and huge differences in how effective certain sets and powers are, etc.
If after these crit/dodge changes we'd get more changes to properly balancing the underperforming powers, and maybe slightly nerf the overperforming ones, and either add a DR on cooldown reduction or make the alternatives useful, and complete some of the sets with proper energy unlocks and AOE powers, the foundation would start to look a bit better.
All I can say is, if it's actually supposed to be a multiplicitive buff, it's bugged.
If it's supposed to be a multiplicitive modifier to additive damage boosts, it's bugged.
It's it's supposed to be a buff at all levels of offense, as implyed by the preview blog, it is not working as intended.
Anything other than that and someone will have to explain how it works.
Because of the capitalization of the word "Passive", I take that to mean that Offense is now multiplicative, but only with the damage bonus from your Slotted Passive. If that's the case, Offense will be more effective for those with an Offensive Passive or Aura of Ebon Destruction, but totally useless for anyone else.
I hope I'm misinterpreting that, because that will destroy the damage output of Tanks that use The Best Defense to deal worthwhile amounts of damage.
@flamingbunnyman in game. Formerly @Roderick in City of Heroes.
He make have explained a summary of what is changing, but he has NOT listed the formulas like he should have.
I'm with Blkjackwilliams on this one. It's foolish to think we can truly help identify issues if we don't have the mathematical order of operations known.
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I am hoping they consider what I stated many patch notes ago, namely to provide a blog which goes into relative detail regarding what has gone on, even more so than the preview blog.
I'm doubtful that there will be something else to go on, but I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in this instance.
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That's how I thought it worked too, but if you look at the discussion on this thread, more toward the end, you'll see that it's really not doing either, meaning multiplicitive buff vs multiplicitive modifier. That's why I phrased my post the way it did. No matter how it actually works, it's not working as described, and is possibly bugged.
It's acting like a pure multiplicitive buff, when you have no additive buffs. This is something it should not be doing if it worked as described in the blog.
It's not acting like a modifier for buffs either. Higher offense looks to DR less at level 40 (haven't tested other levels) making me believe it's one of the odd targeted buffs (using additive buff level, offense, and character level as target values), which is counter to the description given. It also only has numbers that can be percieved as acting as a modifier in a few of the examples, so if that's how it works, it's not working as described and possibly bugged.
Either way, it's not actually a buff in the low/mid offense range and each instance I've checked has been lower damage than on live, something confirmed by other players who've checked as well.
I really, really want to know how the numbers work for this.
And have you tried that without justice gear and R7 mods? I still seriously doubt that the majority of the people will own it on live, unless the LR toon is their "primary main character"
Hard Cap dodge at 75%, people can then build for that 75% through passives/gear/power choices.
Maybe let Masterful Dodge and LR's +5% Dodge Chance on every missed dodge, surpass the 75% Hard Cap. Or maybe just MD. Maybe neither regardless...just a flat 75% dodge chance.
This would also allow them to make the Stat Specs that grant Dodge worthwhile!
Mind you, I don't know how easy it would be to hit the 75% dodge cap on Dodge/Avoid passives that arent LR. And I don't know how high one could get Dodge Chance on a different passive character, but I would think they would have to build for avoidance as well, so maybe not that high?
This is totally incorrect. The long and short of it is that there are 2 damage layers that you guys care about. Both of them are additive.
Passives + Buffs and Crit Severity + Offense.
So if you have a power that deals 1000 base damage, 100% from your passive, 80% from a buff, 100% Crit severity, and 20% Offense bonus you will do the following damage (on a crit and non crit)
Crit: (1000) * (1+ 1 + .8) * (1 + 1 + .2) = 6160
Non Crit: (1000) * (1 + 1 + .8) * (1 + .2) = 3360
Hopefully this helps clarify where offense falls as far as the math goes. *NOTE* This example assumes no debuffs on you and no resistance on the target. Those things getting involved makes the math significantly more complicated, so I have omitted it here.
Then something is wierd. Outside of crits it should act as a purely multiplicitive buff, but in many cases it doesn't.
It must be bugged, because for some reason changing the values of your offense and additive boosts is changing the relative benefit of the offense boost. In one case 15% offense is acting like a 10.6% multiplicitive boost. In another 6.1% offense is acting like a .58% multiplicitive buff.
Also, all these numbers were taken from in-game, from the power's tool tip, not from floating damage numbers, so resitance and debuffs are not a factor.
Are you sure you calculated for every factor? Stats adding Melee bonus, Role bonus, etc? All of these things fit it. Im not going to post the entire formula, but remember that you cant just look at it in a vacuum. I would love to demystify some amount of this, but at this moment I cant really do that safely. I would double check that you have a good test case because in all of my constructed test cases it is doing exactly what it should.
Layer 1 (A) = Superstat Bonus + Form Bonus + Passive Bonus + EGO/STR Bonus + most spec bonuses(I'm not sure about this one)
Layer 2 (B) = Role Bonus + Severity + Mental Discipline + Warden Mastery + Offense
Base Damage (X) = The power's base damage.
Final damage = f(X) = X(1 + A)(1 +
Does this fit your numbers?
EDIT: Never mind, it clearly doesn't. Ignore this post.
That Dork In The Suspenders, signing out.
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Ok, so in the name of getting everybody on "the same-ish page" is it possible for a player on PTS to recreate your "constructed test case"? I see people in here testing on Kiga, test dummies, Teliosaurus, and Bloodmoon recently. Some people say this is a good test, some say this is a bad test. So Crush, to cut down on all these longwinded book-posts(which I am also guilty of I'll admit) where should the bar be set for data collection?
P.S. The more the merrier on details and explanations please. :biggrin:
P.S.S. Thanks for the forum posts.
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
Good question. The general test case I am using is on a Regen Dummy (mine don't die, but they should be the same) or reading a tooltip. I remove my superstats and power choices and slowly introduce the stat in a vacuum (using dev powers). This can be roughly approximated by introducing a "dump stat" (i.e. one that wont affect any damage output) and sitting in hybrid role.
As a side note, I also do run everything through a built character and a set of spreadsheets I build relating to that build so I can do the math as well.
So while it would be amazing for you guys to see a 1:1 correlation to a damage bonus and its output, that is unlikely. The Tl;DR of the offense change is, Offense will feel MORE potent than before, because in the majority of cases it no longer rams headfirst into diminishing returns all the time.
NVM Auto-small!!
Hybrid role, no stars, 128% bonus damage was my super stats damage bonus and strength melee damage bonus, and no specs. Justice gear and a condemning belt with 17 offense (for the 6.1% example not the 5.5%), no form.
Appreciate my sexy, because I hopped onto the PTS and stripped down for you.
Note that Aura of Ebon Destruction is not slotted.
I have no buffs outside Attributes and offense, I have no stars, but the tooltip wouldn't show on the Screencap.
Also, if it's acting as a multiplicitive buff in the form of :
Base Damage * (1 + additive boosts) * (1 + Severity + Offense)
If I missed a buff, and it was working as described, wouldn't the actual displayed damage be higher than expected, not lower?
I.E I'm expecting 561.23 damage with 128% additive boosts, 232 base damage displayed with no stats, and 6.1% from offense -> 232 * (1 + 1.28) * (1.061) = 561.23
Displayed damage is 546
If I'm missing a buff, or the buff is working as intended, the actual displayed damage should be > 561.23 should it not?
Honestly, no.
I didn't use any role modifiers, mental discipline, specs, or crits. All I had were super stats, gear, and a power.
That means if it is working as described I had all three parts of GC's non-crit example:
(D)amage, (A)dditive buffs, and (O)ffense, which as described should work thusly:
D * A * O
Unless I'm missing something, as shown above it doesn't work thusly.
Fair enough.
If it helps, I got the base damage by doing a full respec, removing all powers specs and other such stats. I was base 5 in everything, with no stars, no super stats, no gear, and in hybrid role. Basically I stripped as much as I could as a player, without dev powers.
Means the only buff that could be acting on it is strengths melee buff scaled for 5 points of strength. Unless there's something hidden that influences the power.
That should be pretty darn close to base damage.
The only thing that's holding me up is how strangely the numbers are moving, despite not having anything that should be on the level of offense.
Also, I really do appreciate you taking the time to help us, if not understand, at least come to terms with how the mechanic is working.