City of Heroes: Enhancement Diversification and the Global Defense Nerf.
Both if those were ENORMOUS nerfs that destroyed countless builds. And yes, people left after each. But the two eliminated some horrible imbalances (anyone remember dumpster diving?), and ultimately alliwed for the addition of the invention system, an important aspect of character building for the latter 2/3 of the game's life.
Those nerfs happened around the second year of CoH's life. It lasted NINE years.
I came into City of Heroes after that. And I was a happily subscribed member for about two years. During my stay I not only had great customer service, I also didn't stumble upon bugs regularly just doing normal content. Forming teams could definitely be a pain, but not once in CO have I felt as rewarded as I did when I earned my Master of Statesman's Task Force badge in CoX. I also saw new content regularly, and never needed to gamble to acquire the best gear in the game.
You seem pretty obsessed with an Alert that isn't even currently available. I wouldn't have mentioned it as farmable if it isn't even there to farm, would I?
There's two parts to Fatal Err0r that are always available, even when the custom alert isn't. And if we're comparing personal experiences in the Alert, I never had a problem getting it to pop quickly, either as a PUG or a preformed group. We never failed or quit, even when some level 6 got stuck in the rain, recovered, and got locked out. It's also my second favorite alert.
I cite Cybermind as an example as its "new" content. I actually think it's a really well done alert except for Cybermind having nearly 3million hp, whereas Gravitar allows 10 people (having about the same if not identical hp) to wear her down, you only have five, making it a major time sink. And even that wouldn't bother me if it weren't for the insanely low drop rate. Everyone in my premades earned their keep and were equally as frustrated.
As for never failing or quit, I failed a handful of times, and usually that's because I was the very last one standing. Even then if I hadn't been focused on earning the perks on my main, I could have taken something a lot stronger and solo'd whenever necessary. My main motivation for getting the perks? Once completed I'd never have to do it again.
The "nerf" applied only to Dodge Rating. Many powers were buffed by being converted to Dodge Chance. Yes, Quarry got nerfed. It's still damn good. Yes, the top end got lowered. But the bottom end got raised.
Quarry based FF builds have been the main source of "imbalance". My highest damage alt is built around it for its superiority. For most of my ATs, their heroic agility is the only real mitigation they get, and that's chance based mind you. Defense provides minor resistance at best.
That's hyperbolic at best. On my first character, slotted with random green equipment and having no idea what I was doing, I soloed Resistance, because I had no idea it was intended as team content. I won. On a level 21 Blade.
I won't claim it was easy. It wasn't. I nearly quit several times. But I didn't even know about Heroic or Legion gear, or Legacy Devices, or any other overpowered crap, so claiming it's necessary is pure bullcrap.
I never mention APs for a reason. The biggest challenges ATs have in APs often revolve around their usual lack of self healing.
I claim it necessary for the sake of making daily alerts bearable. While smashes are hardly an issue now since you've got only a handful of lower level players, I go into any grab or rad rumble assuming I'll have to tank for the sake of the them, either from generating so much threat or because no one else can survive it. They are tough rated mobs, a huge difference from the regular cannon fodder.
Now my FFs are generally fine because I can build them to be self-sufficient, namely having self-healing. Most of my ATs don't have that luxury. I've already done the usual alerts thousands of times. It's already bad enough that I have to tank regularly on an offensive based character. Now I'm expected to die repeatedly anytime I have a subpar team? Why bother with the frustration if its something I've already done countless times?
Now that's just my experience. But what about the new silver player who only plays one or 2 characters and already having trouble as is. Just like how those players quit on me in that alert, how often do you think newer people are going to stick around if they get abandoned because their team struggles?
I think that there should be less Viper in the Alerts targeted at low level characters. I've never seen wipe-fests like what you described with any other faction.
Yes, as you described it, you were overpowered. Soloing an Alert is like soloing a Lair: it isn't meant to happen. And if you lost two people early, and the other two were as ineffective as you make them sound, then you basically did solo it. [/quote]
They were basically hitting with EBs and tier 1 attacks on occasion. And I'm pretty sure it was a black talon, so it wasn't viper, just destroids, who in their own right are pretty mean with knocks and holds.
Why isn't it meant to happen? I thought this was a superhero game. I'm the highest level possible and equipped with quality equipment. So you're basically stating that instead of carrying the burden by using my strength to carry weaker teammates, I should be almost as weak as they are and leave if they're incapable ?
But isn't that the exact opposite of teamwork? Work together if everyone is great and jump ship anytime someone can't pull their own weight? That hardly sounds heroic, and keep in mind a game like this appeals to a broader spectrum of players. I don't expect everyone to perform at the highest levels, and we should never have to in a game like this. I see higher level players die repeatedly regularly. You want me to exclude them from my teams because they aren't playing at the same level?
Yes.
If you are soloing content intended for teams, you are throwing off the intended balance of the game.
Unless you never interact with any other players, you generate negative impact.
Are you farming Mega Ds for Gs? You are creating inflation in the player markets.
Are you farming Lair bosses for drops? The devs see a flood of what should be rare items and lower the drop rate.
If you complete a boss fight that's supposed to be extremely difficult in an unintendedly short time, the difficulty is increased further to bring the average difficulty up.
In an MMO, virtually everything you do has the potential to impact other players, even if you can't see how.[/QUOTE]
Soloing Vik throws off no balance - how often do you see people running teams to do the ruins? It's generally an unpleasant experience for any lesser skilled player, where constant cc can easily lead to too many adds and wipe a group. Then there's Vik himself, who is nothing but frustration for anyone who doesn't know exactly how to deal with him. I myself got thrown around in the lava constantly when I was learning the system. The difference between players like me and the "average" player is I can work through the frustration and find a solution. I can solo him and rarely bother because the time and effort is rarely worth the reward (or lack thereof). Last I checked, there wasn't a massive flood of vikorin unlocks in the market.
So just by being in the game one automatically generates negative impact?
Really, so being gone for months I've generated tons of inflation. First, it's very boring, and only a handful of people can do it hours on end. I have an alt dedicated to it and she's one of my least played for that reason. Second, why would one do such a thing? The bottom line is that most in game drops have little value and the ones that do are so extremely rare and come by chance. A stead stream of resources is logical when the alternative is spending hours farming something with no guaranteed reward.
Drop rates are naturally low - I've defeated Val more times than I can remember, yet have never received one of her 3 costume unlocks. The same could be said for Ripper, but at least he only has one. A group of friends used to run TT elite regularly, and we lost count of how many runs it took for us to get our Therakial's sword. Warlord unlocks are still rare, but have dropped in value because there aren't enough newer players demanding them. Cybermind unlocks are so rare that they're fairly valued around 2k, but so rare that the people who want them either aren't willing or simply can't afford them.
I'd say the best balanced new alert was Hi Pan. It's not so difficult to be exclusive to just the best players while providing enough potential reward (in the cores) that players are willing to run it again despite having the unlocks, not to mention its "fun".
I wouldn't say players don't have an impact, I mean look at the AH being flooded by useless undesired items, which inadvertently prevents sales as not everyone understands how to navigate the system or even know what to look for. But you can't say that people soloing vik are ruining it for the non-existent teams running it.
It was said earlier that "the player base" dislikes this upcoming change.
I've seen what, about five people in this thread complaining. Nobody else. Now, unless you're going to maintain that the entire player base is now between ten and fifteen people, that's just not a significant number. I know you're upset - but you being upset does not necessarily translate as us being upset, dig?
I think arguments on both sides might be better served by lowering the levels of hyperbole in the discussion...
These arguments have carried over from previous threads. Also, just because something isn't posted in the forums doesn't mean its not discussed elsewhere in game.
So all the time and money that I invested collecting my Legion Gear is about to be wasted? Wow. And at the same time that they're planning on nerfing it, they're still putting Legion Gear in lockboxes, expecting people to pay money for it? Double wow. I don't want to sound like a cry baby, but I'm gonna have to think long and hard before I renew my subscription again. This is almost too much. I feel like a hooker who got jilted out of her money after providing her services. I don't understand why they can't just leave it alone. Champions is not primarily a PvP game, or it wasn't supposed to be.
So all the time and money that I invested collecting my Legion Gear is about to be wasted? Wow. And at the same time that they're planning on nerfing it, they're still putting Legion Gear in lockboxes, expecting people to pay money for it? Double wow. I don't want to sound like a cry baby, but I'm gonna have to think long and hard before I renew my subscription again. This is almost too much. I feel like a hooker who got jilted out of her money after providing her services. I don't understand why they can't just leave it alone. Champions is not primarily a PvP game, or it wasn't supposed to be.
Anyone else still want to tell me that people will be fine with these changes?
To be specific spikey, dodge/avoid and crit chance are being adjusted. If you are running legion health/defense, those won't be "affected". But if you're like most people who have invested in crit chance (legion precision) or dodge/avoid (legion elusive/agility), your investment is either going to take a huge hit or a complete dive.
So all the time and money that I invested collecting my Legion Gear is about to be wasted? Wow. And at the same time that they're planning on nerfing it, they're still putting Legion Gear in lockboxes, expecting people to pay money for it? Double wow. I don't want to sound like a cry baby, but I'm gonna have to think long and hard before I renew my subscription again. This is almost too much. I feel like a hooker who got jilted out of her money after providing her services. I don't understand why they can't just leave it alone. Champions is not primarily a PvP game, or it wasn't supposed to be.
As I said before and as some others have noticed it's not about PvP. If you think a little about what is going on you will see that the nerf is not for balance it's so that further along the line we can get new gear. Basically, even now Legion's gear is not needed at all, it's mostly for min/max. Problem is, people that use Legion's allready have it so they need to do something to sell us new gear. Pushing things even further would make us literally unkillable so their option is to nerf us.
This is my take on the situation and I'd be more than happy if I'm wrong. I doubt I'll be though. Cryptic has always been about min effort for max profit (makes sense but at some point it will come back to bite them.... CO's current population speaks for itself).
I don't know anyone who's going to quit playing because the gear is overpowered, but I have a lot of friends who have already told me that they will quit playing if their gear is nerfed into uselessness. Please don't do this.
Anyone else still want to tell me that people will be fine with these changes?
To be specific spikey, dodge/avoid and crit chance are being adjusted. If you are running legion health/defense, those won't be "affected". But if you're like most people who have invested in crit chance (legion precision) or dodge/avoid (legion elusive/agility), your investment is either going to take a huge hit or a complete dive.
I agree with you as well and I don't have any of those extreme R9/Legion's of Agility toons. I do not believe it's fair what they do. They can wave the balance banner as much as they want but in the end this is not about being nerfed it's about all the time and money people spent on this OP gear Cryptic PROVIDED.
People don't give enough importance to those two factors. They believe that people should adapt. This is only the case when we talk about things that are exploitative (Eruption). Builds will have to be changed and new gear will have to be aquired.
As it stands, who's time/money will be used for this? Ours of course. This is why people are unhappy. It's time and money that Cryptic is invalidation by the was of a hand.
No, not at all. I am just stating that i am not one of the paypal "subbers".
Ah. Have fun with your archetypes, then, I suppose...? Probably shouldn't have spent that money and subbed instead. Sounds like a better investment to me.
Anyone else still want to tell me that people will be fine with these changes?
To be specific spikey, dodge/avoid and crit chance are being adjusted. If you are running legion health/defense, those won't be "affected". But if you're like most people who have invested in crit chance (legion precision) or dodge/avoid (legion elusive/agility), your investment is either going to take a huge hit or a complete dive.
People will be fine with these changes. :biggrin:
Seriously. The freakout that's being spread is.. silly. So you'll have to farm a little more to make your character OPs again to validate how much you wanna be the very best.
Whoop de doo. It's just a game.
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Seriously. The freakout that's being spread is.. silly. So you'll have to farm a little more to make your character OPs again to validate how much you wanna be the very best.
Whoop de doo. It's just a game.
So I have to spend more money just to remain where I'm already at? And what happens when they nerf whatever gear comes after Legion Gear? Yes, it is just a game, which makes it that much easier to quit paying for it if I'm gonna be cheated out of the money I've already spent. I would be happy to spend more money on this game, but not if it's all for naught.
So I have to spend more money just to remain where I'm already at? And what happens when they nerf whatever gear comes after Legion Gear? Yes, it is just a game, which makes it that much easier to quit paying for it if I'm gonna be cheated out of the money I've already spent. I would be happy to spend more money on this game, but not if it's all for naught.
Look at his join date. 8 weeks into the game and knows it all. ^^
Seriously. The freakout that's being spread is.. silly. So you'll have to farm a little more to make your character OPs again to validate how much you wanna be the very best.
So I have to spend more money just to remain where I'm already at? And what happens when they nerf whatever gear comes after Legion Gear? Yes, it is just a game, which makes it that much easier to quit paying for it if I'm gonna be cheated out of the money I've already spent. I would be happy to spend more money on this game, but not if it's all for naught.
The whole reason I've taken the time to vocalize against these changes isn't because I'm worried about my experience. If my experience was ruined by whatever change, I'd just quit since other people would be just fine. When I left after the prototype nerfs, I didn't take the time to write walls of text, I just left.
I still know what its like to be a regular player and am far more concerned about the health of the overall playerbase. You are telling me that people will blindly accept these changes and not be upset? I'm telling you that far more people than you realize will be upset and its impact will be felt game wide in a population drop and lack of money spent. So you get your dodge changes and now you see less quarry based str or dex/con/int setups running around with tgm and md resurge em, etc. But I guarantee you will see less people in general. Is that really worth the tradeoff, alienating the newer player base because a handful of power combinations are outperforming everything else?
Why not hit the said power combinations instead, the actual problem?
I've been here since F2P Launched WAY back in 2011 (WOO!). Unfortunately due to a foolish decision (and yes. It was extremely foolish. Never share your accounts, people) I've had to make a totally new one. Without getting into exposition, I can pretty much say I've experienced the best and worst of Pre-Alert and Post-Alert Champs.
..also, if you ever noticed a massacre of Bigfoot in canada before On-Alert.. you're welcome. (still never got enough bloody feathers..)
Also. I know that's you, Ryder. Your tryhard tone is so distinct.
This post is brought to you by:
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You claimed that real life money expenditures would not be impacted. Yeah that right there shows either willfull ignorance or you are baiting. That big smiley at the end was awesome though. Take a hike.
*edit-Wait I remember you. You were the one who didn't understand the difference between dodge and avoidance in terms of mitigation, and your defense of that position was "neener-neener". What a little fool.
Well you quoted someone else, and forum join dates aren't necessarily "accurate". But I see what your point was now, I just think the original message was a bit convoluted =P
So all the time and money that I invested collecting my Legion Gear is about to be wasted? Wow. And at the same time that they're planning on nerfing it, they're still putting Legion Gear in lockboxes, expecting people to pay money for it? Double wow. I don't want to sound like a cry baby, but I'm gonna have to think long and hard before I renew my subscription again. This is almost too much. I feel like a hooker who got jilted out of her money after providing her services. I don't understand why they can't just leave it alone. Champions is not primarily a PvP game, or it wasn't supposed to be.
lol this was the same thing with devices but most didnt care at the time because it wasnt something that affected them.
i did cancel after the device nerf i saw the hand writing on the wall to me it looks like they are souring the milk here they are probable developing another game and will keep rolling out these changes till paying subs and c store revenue drop to the point they can close this and restart with a new game.
Here is my logic on this why nerf devices in pve why not just code the pvp zones to disable devices or better yet add a debuff while in that zone that super extends device timers/or adds a interrupt to a existing one (summons) that turns them off.
This would have made everyone happy the pvp people would have balance in the PVP zones no one would seem op and the people that invested so much in the devices would still get to use them. The ability to stack legacy devices was intended this was done to allow people to spend money to get them. Now after almost 2 years they decide it wasnt intended after they got mass fed $ from having this available?
lets look at the math 5000 zen for $50
that gets you 50 keys to trade for items in game if you dont want to go for chance and straight trade keys for items looking only at telos if you wanted to stack all 5 slots that would be about 3500 to 4500 or 35 to 45 keys per so 250 per character.
why would a company want to reduce its income potential from 250 per each character to 50 ?
They are going to keep reducing abilities they will loose first the subscribers then they will loose those that buy stuff from C store as they nerf more devices and people will stop buying there...
This is now also the case with dodge whats next is reducing the targets on epidemic?
some heroes are completely based around speed and dodge as their concept. what did cryptic
do? nerf LR so it's no longer really a DEFENSIVE passive, its now like Ravenforce calls PFF, Defend your passive, as it requires far too much upkeep, much more than it should. also they made quarry practically worthless.
It's not ONLY Quarry, every Offensive Passive will be hit a lot by this.
Finally got into PTS today and lol those are my numbers:
This is on my Quarry R3 toon (same gear in both cases):
Live:
Crit chance : 39.3
Dodge chance: 57.2
PTS:
Crit chance: 33
Dodge chance: 30.3
This toon was not breaking anything, it was survivable but nothing unkillable. My dodge is almost 1/2 of Live and my crit chance is 6.3% lower (that's a lot IMO).
I don't want to hear anyone tell me this is not a HUGE nerf because it is. Oh an this toon does not use Legion's, it uses Mercenary/Heroic and R5-6's. As such, this is the nerf an average (not elite) build should expect based on the current PTS.
Yeah....I'm going to really survive a lot with 30% dodge chance :rolleyes: This is the kind of BS I was talking about. People are blinded by Legion's and R9 MOD power levels and use that to say everything is OK. Well it's not.
It's not ONLY Quarry, every Offensive Passive will be hit a lot by this.
Oh no. You only dodge 1/3 of the hits you're taking... please, god no.. don't make me experience this torture.
*laughs at the whining and hands over a bottle of Preperation-H* You need this.
My numbers are 29 crit and 45ish Dodge... do you see me complaining? NOPE. And all my crit and dodge is from gear.. soooooooooooo.. I'mma be hit worse than you, Mr. Quarry.
*runs off screaming "GLACIER POWER!"*
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Oh no. You only dodge 1/3 of the hits you're taking... please, god no.. don't make me experience this torture.
*laughs at the whining and hands over a bottle of Preperation-H* You need this.
My numbers are 29 crit and 45ish Dodge... do you see me complaining? NOPE. And all my crit and dodge is from gear.. soooooooooooo.. I'mma be hit worse than you, Mr. Quarry.
*runs off screaming "GLACIER POWER!"*
Spare me your belittling and condescending nonsense.
That you don't care does not mean I don't. I've invested far more time in this game than YOU Mr. September 2013. I'm well beyond 1500 days so those changes affect me quite a bit. The impact this has on you is nada, on people who have more expensive gear and multiple alts this is a big change.
Well, I logged onto the PTS and this is what I found.
My crit and dodge both dropped approx. 15 pts each. Wow! Sure am glad I doled all the money out for Legion Gear!
Went to Monster Island and nearly died fighting 2 Scarlet Serpent Initiates, 1 Red Guard Knife Fighter, and 1 Viper Commander. Yesterday I wiped the floor with these same four villains during a Unity mission.
At the same time that I was nearly dying, I watched some guy spamming two gun mojo who was hitting crit after crit after crit. My question is this: My chars live and die by dodge (and crit), yet how are they to survive if these changes go through. It seems to me that you're making things worse. Not to mention all of the money spent on Legion Gear and R7 mods that now provide me with an extra (and whopping) 6% crit and 10% dodge.
If guns are the problem, then nerf those. Don't take away my ability to defend myself against those same guns.
Better yet, LEAVE IT ALONE.
Well, I logged onto the PTS and this is what I found.
My crit and dodge both dropped approx 25 pts each. Wow! Sure am glad I doled all the money out for Legion Gear!
Went to Monster Island and nearly died fighting 2 Scarlet Serpent Initiates, 1 Red Guard Knife Fighter, and 1 Viper Commander. Yesterday I wiped the floor with these same four villains during a Unity mission.
At the same time that I was nearly dying, I watched some guy spamming two gun mojo who was hitting crit after crit after crit. My question is this: My chars live and die by dodge (and crit), yet how are they to survive if these changes go through. It seems to me that you're making things worse. Not to mention all of the money spent on Legion Gear and R7 mods that now provide me with an extra (and whopping) 6% crit and 10% dodge.
If guns are the problem, then nerf those. Don't take away my ability to defend myself against those same guns.
Better yet, LEAVE IT ALONE.
There was no problem to begin with. People just make excuses once they saw that nerfs are coming. The truth is that Cryptic wants to nerf us to sell us better gear in the future. Think about it, if they did not do that would would they do? Give us something better than Legion's? LOL yeah, if that does not make us extremely OP then I don't know what does.
All this fiasco about OP this OP that is due to the things that can be done using Legion's gear. Guess who gave it to us and why? Money? No way....Cryptic would not do that. :rolleyes:
All those "dodge/crit" balance changes are not needed at all. None of this will make it so people can make more diversified builds. What it does is kill off Offensive Passives (no survivability anymore).
There was no problem to begin with. People just make excuses once they saw that nerfs are coming. The truth is that Cryptic wants to nerf us to sell us better gear in the future. Think about it, if they did not do that would would they do? Give us something better than Legion's? LOL yeah, if that does not make us extremely OP then I don't know what does.
All this fiasco about OP this OP that is due to the things that can be done using Legion's gear. Guess who gave it to us and why? Money? No way....Cryptic would not do that. :rolleyes:
All those "dodge/crit" balance changes are not needed at all. None of this will make it so people can make more diversified builds. What it does is kill off Offensive Passives (no survivability anymore).
Quite right. My unarmed melee with an offensive passive has been hit much much worse. It will require an entirely new build. This is not creating more diverse builds, it's killing them off.
Quite right. My unarmed melee with an offensive passive has been hit much much worse. It will require an entirely new build. This is not creating more diverse builds, it's killing them off.
That's the irony. If this is based off the min/maxer performance, what about everyone else?
No one ever says a marksman is OP, yet they have quarry and EM.
That's the irony. If this is based off the min/maxer performance, what about everyone else?
No one ever says a marksman is OP, yet they have quarry and EM.
I'm actually curious who asked for the dodge/crit nerf? I don't remember seeing an outcry for it nor did I see dozens of threads about it. Cryptic just rolled it up and people started to make up excuses as to why it is needed. EM stacking was a problem? They increased the cool-down and nerfed it's dodge. OK why the dodge and crit nerf for the Offensive passives then? Why the weird crit rating changes? I see no other reason that greed and making room for the new and shiny Legion's MK II coming to a luckbox near you lol.
Offensives Passives are dead now, all of them but especially those that have no innate defenses. Whats the point of having DPS if you will die. Dealing 10k dps to a mob with 100k HP which can one shot you => you will never beat that boss EVER.
Once this hits I'll go back to Defensive Passives, at least with them even if I don't have that much dps I will be able to take down bosses and probably not die in Gravitar as much.
Forum Malvanum is going to be fun once it pops again. Going there with an offense toon = death and going with defense = not enough dps => fail. Oh well, guess Cryptic thought this through as usual. :rolleyes:
I can think of less than 10 people who think we're too strong and need nerfing. Most of those people also can solo just about anything and apparently believe that everyone is at that level.
I too can solo just about anything, but I can also acknowledge that what I can do goes well beyond the average player.
If I were an amateur racer, comparing my performance to an F1 driver means I am a prodigy or that the comparison is deeply flawed. You can't expect to compare the massive skill level differences without huge disparities.
I can think of less than 10 people who think we're too strong and need nerfing. Most of those people also can solo just about anything and apparently believe that everyone is at that level.
I too can solo just about anything, but I can also acknowledge that what I can do goes well beyond the average player.
If I were an amateur racer, comparing my performance to an F1 driver means I am a prodigy or that the comparison is deeply flawed. You can't expect to compare the massive skill level differences without huge disparities.
That's the thing though. It all depends on the build you make. If I want to make someone on Superman's power lvl then why not? If I want to make someone like Batman then why not?
The game is not really that hard but IT DEPENDS. Normal PvE is not a big deal but then you have things like Gravitar, Cybermind, Forum Malvanum where you need specialized and highly effective builds.
Cryptic fed us more and more power while giving us NO CONTENT that requires it (except for the alerts mentioned above). So people's reaction is "nerf us" ? Should it not be "give us content that requires those damned Letion's gear pieces" ?
IMO if those people want more challenge then they should run around with no gear. Why should everyone suffer because some elitist self centered and self righteous bunch can't get their kicks.
Oh and I make concept builds so they can never ever be absurdly OP. If people go around taking the most OP powers and making the most absurd and obnoxious gimmick build you can think of then who's fault is IT? Should everyone else suffer for this? I THINK NOT!
I'm actually curious who asked for the dodge/crit nerf? I don't remember seeing an outcry for it nor did I see dozens of threads about it. Cryptic just rolled it up and people started to make up excuses as to why it is needed.
Most changes from what I can gather either are a product of certain players speaking to developers OR forum posts OR need to sell something OR fix something that wasn't explicitly intended.
In this instance, I believe it was a combination of the following:
- Players speaking to Developers
- Fixing something that was not explicitly intended
- Selling of a new "thing" (in this case JUSTICE GEAR)
On Alert, seriously boosted the survival and power levels in CO for your "average" character.
DPS, Tanking and Healing all got boosts, as well as general survival. DPS has remained consistently powerful and dodge/avoid allowed players to couple survival with high DPS, effectively nullifying the need for tanks/healers in some instances.
Certain aspects of the game, like Enemy NPCs, Crowd Control and certain powers were not dealt with in order to deal with the power creep and as a result we have relatively easy missions, dead/dying mechanics, solo-able lairs (which in actual fact were not intended to be solo'd) and other nigh-unkillable builds and a distinct lack of variety of builds in some cases.
However, having said that, I don't agree so much that everyone should be screwed over because a few people are able to do insane things BUT the issue is that if one person can do it, it isn't long until EVERYONE is able to do it.
I think in a nutshell that is what they are trying to prevent, even though it is really late in the game to be doing this, which is why it feels and will have a very large impact on play styles of "all" players ("all" for the sake of argument are those who use dodge/avoid).
I do wonder though how this will affect certain instances (as you mentioned) such as Forum Malvanum, if you need high DPS to get through some rounds and you need to survive as well in a time limited environment, will people bother to play such content if they know that going offensive will = likely death and going defensive will = staying alive but at a cost to DPS, bringing a tank or a healer into those situations is one less source of DPS.
Also I am wondering about Alerts where we side kick down cutting our (@lvl 40) effectiveness in half, will this mean there is less need or incentive to do alerts?
I don't like this change to dodge but it is seriously needed if you think about it. Whatever is being introduced next, be it Rampages, New Powers, New Boss Fights/Instances will need to be challenging enough for us to enjoy and not just steamrolling over it.
I cannot really use my argument of my main characters being highly affected by this (which they are) because one uses a useless mechanic which has little to no value in CO because it has been left that way and the other uses a defensive passive which uses dodge/avoid to be remotely defensive.
I think it is painfully obvious to players and Devs alike that things will have to change once this "fix" happens. Certain powers and Archetypes will need to be re-thought and restructured slightly or simply rebuilt or buffed, that much is clear, to what extent though is another matter entirely. I think if anything this is the ONLY good thing to come about from this dodge change, apart from an attempt to "balance things".
Crits are another matter though, I welcome this change entirely and yes I am affected on a number of my characters, 80% of my roster will gain a large chunk of crit chance, the other 20% will loose a considerable amount. However, they can still function the way I want them too.
(Note: It may seem like I am in two minds about this change, that's because I am. I am not overly fond of the prospect of being less able to survive across the board, especially with offensive passive toons but then again, I shouldn't really be super durable anyway with an offensive passive, I'm sacrificing defense for outright damage. I've tested toons I am overly worried about and it looks like for some I'll just have to steer clear of higher level content and other players in some cases, not to different to what I do for those toons now anyway.)
However, just because a small number of people can solo everything it doesn't mean this is the case for all of us. I haven't tried nor do I have any desire to solo everything in game.
And yes, I am a concept builder, I don't run around with insane franken builds which are absurdly over powered, so I am quite miffed about this change.
Anyhow, I personally don't think the changes are necessary. Furthermore, who will fix all the things that those changes will break? Who will compensate people for their time/money they spent?
I guarantee you that the things we thought of now are NOTHING, who knows in how many ways those changes will affect us.
Nobody is saying you have to be a tank with an Offensive Passive but if you can't survive then we go intro Trinity. Furthermore, defense has always been more valuable than offense. I does NOT matter how much dps you put out if you die before you defeat your enemy. It's as simple as that.
I don't agree with the changes they make. How am I supposed to survive with a 30% dodge chance? Pray the RNG is on my side?
Again, it's only those who abuse the game that are unkillable. I build concepts, and all powers have to fit that concept with very very little wiggle room.
Even if people are really powerful what's it to anyone really? it's a game why not let people have their fun? Exploits are one thing but this, is just killing off a part of the game.
With no defense Offensive Passives are useless. Before one can put out DPS one need to be able to survive to do it.
Spare me your belittling and condescending nonsense.
That you don't care does not mean I don't. I've invested far more time in this game than YOU Mr. September 2013. I'm well beyond 1500 days so those changes affect me quite a bit. The impact this has on you is nada, on people who have more expensive gear and multiple alts this is a big change.
Apparently someone hasn't read the whole thread as I've already refuted the claim of being an "insperinced n00b kiddie".
Also. "Well beyond 1500 days" means you've been here long before the game existed since we're in our 4th year. 1500/365 is 4.109. 0.109 x 365 is 1 month and a week. We're a bit more than that at around 1600 days since launch (give or take a few in the tens place).. so "well beyond".. no.
ALSO, it doesn't depend on build entirely but Build and Gear. You can have an amazing build and mess up the gear portion (gearing healing power on an inferno or behemoth.. gearing only for super stats and CC Control on any build..) The thing people continue to fail to see is the GEAR portion is getting nerfed while the build portion is being changed so it's not entirely broken and you can still be the superpowered type.
Also.. "Offensive passives are never gonna be taken" Yes they are. Stop fearmongering. Do realize that you can have an offensive passive and still be hard to hurt with things like the Primal Circle and IDF as well as self heals. It will take a thing called "attention" to keep yourself from dying, but you can do it. Also, BLOCKING helps too. And all Offensive passives have defenses. All. Look through the wiki or even in the power window. Support passives don't, however, save for Seraphim IIRC.
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I agree that some change is needed but I also think it is being done completely wrong and now being pushed in a heavily unfinished state! where is that PFF buff we both wanted? why is LR being nerfed so it shares the "Defend your Passive" slot with PFF?
these are only some of the things which MUST be addressed BEFORE they push this kind of thing to live. oh, and the dodge curve adjustments are far too harsh. I could agree with a smaller, less crippling nerf, but not this.
1) It has not been stated when exactly such a change will be pushed to LIVE. I suspect though with these changes having their own blog so soon, they'll be on LIVE before the start of December, perhaps mid November or even in a few weeks time.
2) Personal Force Field Passive will remain the way it is for now. The dodge changes will likely decimate it's effectiveness and viability, returning it to it's "normal" state. It is obvious Personal Force Field and Regeneration and some other powers/passives will need to be altered and buffed to deal with the change. I assume that these will be dealt with AFTER the change has gone LIVE, perhaps being altered in the new year or if possible directly after the change hits LIVE or even with it.
3) LR @ 50% base + 19% from EM + dodge chance from other sources doesn't put LR in that bad a stead actually. So I think it would be an insult to LR to put it with PFF's Defend-Your-Passive category.
4) The dodge changes got dialled back further, for what reason I am not sure why. Also EM (apparently) has a longer CD. I think the intention there is that since dodge/avoid is the best form of mitigation in CO save immunity it should really be reserved for those who build for it.
Why the changes got dialled back as I said I don't know, but then again I am not a Developer.
Whilst I may not welcome the dodge changes, especially since I worked hard (and no doubt other players) to gain my current results, I can see why they can be seen as "needed".
Apparently someone hasn't read the whole thread as I've already refuted the claim of being an "insperinced n00b kiddie".
Also. "Well beyond 1500 days" means you've been here long before the game existed since we're in our 4th year. 1500/365 is 4.109. 0.109 x 365 is 1 month and a week. We're a bit more than that at around 1600 days since launch (give or take a few in the tens place).. so "well beyond".. no.
ALSO, it doesn't depend on build entirely but Build and Gear. You can have an amazing build and mess up the gear portion (gearing healing power on an inferno or behemoth.. gearing only for super stats and CC Control on any build..) The thing people continue to fail to see is the GEAR portion is getting nerfed while the build portion is being changed so it's not entirely broken and you can still be the superpowered type.
Also.. "Offensive passives are never gonna be taken" Yes they are. Stop fearmongering. Do realize that you can have an offensive passive and still be hard to hurt with things like the Primal Circle and IDF as well as self heals. It will take a thing called "attention" to keep yourself from dying, but you can do it. Also, BLOCKING helps too. And all Offensive passives have defenses. All. Look through the wiki or even in the power window. Support passives don't, however, save for Seraphim IIRC.
No idea what you want to say in your second paragraph. I'm here since closed beta. What exactly do you want to say with that calculation?
Have you tried the changes on PTS? How does your build look like? Oh my apologies, I have to build a gimmick toon now to be viable. My tech toon has to take Circles now?
Again, spare me the nonsense. I'm not blind, going from 57% dodge to 30% is huge. Your solution to this issue is to pigeonhole everyone is breaking their theme and taking X, Y, Z powers.
The defenses you talk about are nothing short of worthless. Won't keep you from dying over and over again.
Apparently someone hasn't read the whole thread as I've already refuted the claim of being an "insperinced n00b kiddie".
Also. "Well beyond 1500 days" means you've been here long before the game existed since we're in our 4th year. 1500/365 is 4.109. 0.109 x 365 is 1 month and a week. We're a bit more than that at around 1600 days since launch (give or take a few in the tens place).. so "well beyond".. no.
ALSO, it doesn't depend on build entirely but Build and Gear. You can have an amazing build and mess up the gear portion (gearing healing power on an inferno or behemoth.. gearing only for super stats and CC Control on any build..) The thing people continue to fail to see is the GEAR portion is getting nerfed while the build portion is being changed so it's not entirely broken and you can still be the superpowered type.
Also.. "Offensive passives are never gonna be taken" Yes they are. Stop fearmongering. Do realize that you can have an offensive passive and still be hard to hurt with things like the Primal Circle and IDF as well as self heals. It will take a thing called "attention" to keep yourself from dying, but you can do it. Also, BLOCKING helps too. And all Offensive passives have defenses. All. Look through the wiki or even in the power window. Support passives don't, however, save for Seraphim IIRC.
Duel me, once these changes hit live. I bet i can change your opinion about the update within 4-5 duels.
Try to block something then. But ofc, make sure you are paying enough attention, first...
No idea what you want to say in your first paragraph. I'm here since closed beta. What exactly do you want to say with that calculation?
Have you tried the changes on PTS? How does your build look like? Oh my apologies, I have to build a gimmick toon now to be viable. My tech toon has to take Circles now?
Again, spare me the nonsense. I'm not blind, going from 57% dodge to 30% is huge. Your solution to this issue is to pigeonhole everyone is breaking their theme and taking X, Y, Z powers.
The defenses you talk about are nothing short of worthless. Won't keep you from dying over and over again.
Your tech toon should have some heals already... Bio Shield and Blocking makes for an effective self heal. You don't have to build a gimmick toon to be effective, but you have to build one to be "DA BERY BEST DAT NO ONE EVA WAS." Also, who the hell cares about effectiveness in theme? My god, a majority of my RP builds sucked mechanically but I didn't care (Concussive Beams, PFF and Sorcery back before On Alert. Yeah.) Also, it is a big drop, yes. But it's not one that matters. Dodging a little over 1/2 the time dropped down to dodging around 1/3 of the time. And with Avoidance staying the same (Yep. Crit Sev and Avoidance are staying the same, people. Just the CHANCE that's being reduced.) that essentially means you're still gonna be taking a lot less damage than usual. Also, I can't stress this enough, the devs and players have stated that Offense and Defense are getting a buff of sorts to make them a suitable alternative to dodging and crits. Flat reduction vs a "Chance to take a lot less damage"
Sadly, I can't get on PTS because this new account is not gold (Nor will it be unless I can get a lifetime...).
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Apparently someone hasn't read the whole thread as I've already refuted the claim of being an "insperinced n00b kiddie".
Your comments might lead others to believe otherwise. That, and the spelling.
You have an entire AT pvp guide, but your comments alone there show you have little experience with them, even after all that the being a player here.
When offensive passives fail to be self-sufficient, people will switch to defensive passives and run hybrid instead, or something like AoPM.
If this dodge/avoid nerf is a response to all the dex/con/int tgm, md, em, evasive setups....what about everything else?
To justify the changes as they're currently proposed requires someone who doesn't care, someone who is paid to do so, or someone who believes that everyone can play at the highest levels.
Your comments might lead others to believe otherwise. That, and the spelling.
You have an entire AT pvp guide, but your comments alone there show you have little experience with them, even after all that the being a player here.
When offensive passives fail to be self-sufficient, people will switch to defensive passives and run hybrid instead, or something like AoPM.
If this dodge/avoid nerf is a response to all the dex/con/int tgm, md, em, evasive setups....what about everything else?
To justify the changes as they're currently proposed requires someone who doesn't care, someone who is paid to do so, or someone who believes that everyone can play at the highest levels.
That's what I plan to do. It does not matter how much you can heal if you don't mitigate any dmg. Once you are one shotted it's over. Can't really depend on others to keep me alive + I like to feel decently powerful. If I wanted to feel like a sidekick I would play DCUO.
Your comments might lead others to believe otherwise. That, and the spelling.
You have an entire AT pvp guide, but your comments alone there show you have little experience with them, even after all that the being a player here.
When offensive passives fail to be self-sufficient, people will switch to defensive passives and run hybrid instead, or something like AoPM.
If this dodge/avoid nerf is a response to all the dex/con/int tgm, md, em, evasive setups....what about everything else?
To justify the changes as they're currently proposed requires someone who doesn't care, someone who is paid to do so, or someone who believes that everyone can play at the highest levels.
While I don't agree with this round of further reductions (I think the last PTS iteration was just about perfect), I don't think this is the death knell to offensive passives (in general) that you (and others) seem to think it is.
Enemies haven't been buffed substantially since On Alert, except for the new bosses and the prevalence of Tough enemies in some types of Alerts.
Against that, you have higher stats, innate offense (now buffed), defense from gear and spec trees.
Offensive passives were usable before On Alert, and are still going to be usable after this. I would suggest they get reworked to make them more attractive than just "lets you use the Offensive Roles". But that's an ease of use/attractiveness change, not a "these have to be buffed or the average player can never survive using them" thing.
The main problem here is ATs. And again, my proposed solution to that is to open up Freeform to everyone, even non-subscribers, and leave ATs as "template" starting points.
The AT concept is too far in power from the Freeform concept to be able to exist and have things be balanced.
And preventing Free-to-play players from experiencing the most unique part of the game is a bad decision, in my opinion.
1) not everyone WANTS to be forced to take EM to remain effective with LR.
2) its not an insult, not at all, I took your "Defend your passive" statement to mean the passive requires too much investment to make it work even decently. the LR nerf does exactly that to LR. it becomes no longer defensive. look at invuln, look at defiance.
3) what exactly did you mean by "dialed back"?
1) Didn't imply that they should, I do think having LR @ 50% base that is a static value is not very conducive to having "Lightning Reflexes" but then again, that is what gear is for, if I recall correctly you can, with gear get more than 70% chance on dodge which is perfectly fine.
2) LR cannot be removed in combat without death. PFF can. LR remains defensive, as I stated earlier I think the idea behind this (not condoning this move though) is to make dodge EXLUSIVE to dodge centric passives. Again I have no idea why it was dialled back. LR right now on PTS "requires" nothing actually to make it work. Dodge rating Gear will just improve it's potency at doing it's job, Thundering Kicks, EM etc are all there to build on top of this and are probably best used in conjunction. I think they are trying to move back to melee being better than ranged for dodge purposes ( I could be wrong but I am not aware of many or any range powers which buff dodge in the way that some melee attacks can)
3) "Dialled Back" - is in reference to the new values on PTS for dodge. They were somewhat higher before this recent patch. So the values were dialled back to be lower in this current patch in comparison.
Comments
I'm not sure what you mean, are you accusing me of purchasing an account from someone else?
Because... if anyone did that for a CO character I'd call them stupid.
I came into City of Heroes after that. And I was a happily subscribed member for about two years. During my stay I not only had great customer service, I also didn't stumble upon bugs regularly just doing normal content. Forming teams could definitely be a pain, but not once in CO have I felt as rewarded as I did when I earned my Master of Statesman's Task Force badge in CoX. I also saw new content regularly, and never needed to gamble to acquire the best gear in the game.
I cite Cybermind as an example as its "new" content. I actually think it's a really well done alert except for Cybermind having nearly 3million hp, whereas Gravitar allows 10 people (having about the same if not identical hp) to wear her down, you only have five, making it a major time sink. And even that wouldn't bother me if it weren't for the insanely low drop rate. Everyone in my premades earned their keep and were equally as frustrated.
As for never failing or quit, I failed a handful of times, and usually that's because I was the very last one standing. Even then if I hadn't been focused on earning the perks on my main, I could have taken something a lot stronger and solo'd whenever necessary. My main motivation for getting the perks? Once completed I'd never have to do it again.
Quarry based FF builds have been the main source of "imbalance". My highest damage alt is built around it for its superiority. For most of my ATs, their heroic agility is the only real mitigation they get, and that's chance based mind you. Defense provides minor resistance at best.
I never mention APs for a reason. The biggest challenges ATs have in APs often revolve around their usual lack of self healing.
I claim it necessary for the sake of making daily alerts bearable. While smashes are hardly an issue now since you've got only a handful of lower level players, I go into any grab or rad rumble assuming I'll have to tank for the sake of the them, either from generating so much threat or because no one else can survive it. They are tough rated mobs, a huge difference from the regular cannon fodder.
Now my FFs are generally fine because I can build them to be self-sufficient, namely having self-healing. Most of my ATs don't have that luxury. I've already done the usual alerts thousands of times. It's already bad enough that I have to tank regularly on an offensive based character. Now I'm expected to die repeatedly anytime I have a subpar team? Why bother with the frustration if its something I've already done countless times?
Now that's just my experience. But what about the new silver player who only plays one or 2 characters and already having trouble as is. Just like how those players quit on me in that alert, how often do you think newer people are going to stick around if they get abandoned because their team struggles?
I think that there should be less Viper in the Alerts targeted at low level characters. I've never seen wipe-fests like what you described with any other faction.
Yes, as you described it, you were overpowered. Soloing an Alert is like soloing a Lair: it isn't meant to happen. And if you lost two people early, and the other two were as ineffective as you make them sound, then you basically did solo it. [/quote]
They were basically hitting with EBs and tier 1 attacks on occasion. And I'm pretty sure it was a black talon, so it wasn't viper, just destroids, who in their own right are pretty mean with knocks and holds.
Why isn't it meant to happen? I thought this was a superhero game. I'm the highest level possible and equipped with quality equipment. So you're basically stating that instead of carrying the burden by using my strength to carry weaker teammates, I should be almost as weak as they are and leave if they're incapable ?
But isn't that the exact opposite of teamwork? Work together if everyone is great and jump ship anytime someone can't pull their own weight? That hardly sounds heroic, and keep in mind a game like this appeals to a broader spectrum of players. I don't expect everyone to perform at the highest levels, and we should never have to in a game like this. I see higher level players die repeatedly regularly. You want me to exclude them from my teams because they aren't playing at the same level?
Yes.
If you are soloing content intended for teams, you are throwing off the intended balance of the game.
Unless you never interact with any other players, you generate negative impact.
Are you farming Mega Ds for Gs? You are creating inflation in the player markets.
Are you farming Lair bosses for drops? The devs see a flood of what should be rare items and lower the drop rate.
If you complete a boss fight that's supposed to be extremely difficult in an unintendedly short time, the difficulty is increased further to bring the average difficulty up.
In an MMO, virtually everything you do has the potential to impact other players, even if you can't see how.[/QUOTE]
Soloing Vik throws off no balance - how often do you see people running teams to do the ruins? It's generally an unpleasant experience for any lesser skilled player, where constant cc can easily lead to too many adds and wipe a group. Then there's Vik himself, who is nothing but frustration for anyone who doesn't know exactly how to deal with him. I myself got thrown around in the lava constantly when I was learning the system. The difference between players like me and the "average" player is I can work through the frustration and find a solution. I can solo him and rarely bother because the time and effort is rarely worth the reward (or lack thereof). Last I checked, there wasn't a massive flood of vikorin unlocks in the market.
So just by being in the game one automatically generates negative impact?
Really, so being gone for months I've generated tons of inflation. First, it's very boring, and only a handful of people can do it hours on end. I have an alt dedicated to it and she's one of my least played for that reason. Second, why would one do such a thing? The bottom line is that most in game drops have little value and the ones that do are so extremely rare and come by chance. A stead stream of resources is logical when the alternative is spending hours farming something with no guaranteed reward.
Drop rates are naturally low - I've defeated Val more times than I can remember, yet have never received one of her 3 costume unlocks. The same could be said for Ripper, but at least he only has one. A group of friends used to run TT elite regularly, and we lost count of how many runs it took for us to get our Therakial's sword. Warlord unlocks are still rare, but have dropped in value because there aren't enough newer players demanding them. Cybermind unlocks are so rare that they're fairly valued around 2k, but so rare that the people who want them either aren't willing or simply can't afford them.
I'd say the best balanced new alert was Hi Pan. It's not so difficult to be exclusive to just the best players while providing enough potential reward (in the cores) that players are willing to run it again despite having the unlocks, not to mention its "fun".
I wouldn't say players don't have an impact, I mean look at the AH being flooded by useless undesired items, which inadvertently prevents sales as not everyone understands how to navigate the system or even know what to look for. But you can't say that people soloing vik are ruining it for the non-existent teams running it.
These arguments have carried over from previous threads. Also, just because something isn't posted in the forums doesn't mean its not discussed elsewhere in game.
No, not at all. I am just stating that i am not one of the paypal "subbers".
Anyone else still want to tell me that people will be fine with these changes?
To be specific spikey, dodge/avoid and crit chance are being adjusted. If you are running legion health/defense, those won't be "affected". But if you're like most people who have invested in crit chance (legion precision) or dodge/avoid (legion elusive/agility), your investment is either going to take a huge hit or a complete dive.
As I said before and as some others have noticed it's not about PvP. If you think a little about what is going on you will see that the nerf is not for balance it's so that further along the line we can get new gear. Basically, even now Legion's gear is not needed at all, it's mostly for min/max. Problem is, people that use Legion's allready have it so they need to do something to sell us new gear. Pushing things even further would make us literally unkillable so their option is to nerf us.
This is my take on the situation and I'd be more than happy if I'm wrong. I doubt I'll be though. Cryptic has always been about min effort for max profit (makes sense but at some point it will come back to bite them.... CO's current population speaks for itself).
I agree with you as well and I don't have any of those extreme R9/Legion's of Agility toons. I do not believe it's fair what they do. They can wave the balance banner as much as they want but in the end this is not about being nerfed it's about all the time and money people spent on this OP gear Cryptic PROVIDED.
People don't give enough importance to those two factors. They believe that people should adapt. This is only the case when we talk about things that are exploitative (Eruption). Builds will have to be changed and new gear will have to be aquired.
As it stands, who's time/money will be used for this? Ours of course. This is why people are unhappy. It's time and money that Cryptic is invalidation by the was of a hand.
Ah. Have fun with your archetypes, then, I suppose...? Probably shouldn't have spent that money and subbed instead. Sounds like a better investment to me.
People will be fine with these changes. :biggrin:
Seriously. The freakout that's being spread is.. silly. So you'll have to farm a little more to make your character OPs again to validate how much you wanna be the very best.
Whoop de doo. It's just a game.
So I have to spend more money just to remain where I'm already at? And what happens when they nerf whatever gear comes after Legion Gear? Yes, it is just a game, which makes it that much easier to quit paying for it if I'm gonna be cheated out of the money I've already spent. I would be happy to spend more money on this game, but not if it's all for naught.
Look at his join date. 8 weeks into the game and knows it all. ^^
The whole reason I've taken the time to vocalize against these changes isn't because I'm worried about my experience. If my experience was ruined by whatever change, I'd just quit since other people would be just fine. When I left after the prototype nerfs, I didn't take the time to write walls of text, I just left.
I still know what its like to be a regular player and am far more concerned about the health of the overall playerbase. You are telling me that people will blindly accept these changes and not be upset? I'm telling you that far more people than you realize will be upset and its impact will be felt game wide in a population drop and lack of money spent. So you get your dodge changes and now you see less quarry based str or dex/con/int setups running around with tgm and md resurge em, etc. But I guarantee you will see less people in general. Is that really worth the tradeoff, alienating the newer player base because a handful of power combinations are outperforming everything else?
Why not hit the said power combinations instead, the actual problem?
It's not about knowing it all. He's a new player, about to leave. You think he's the only "new player" that's gonna feel that way?
Also, insulting a new player isn't going to help our player retention any, but I'm sure you don't think it matters.
Erm, try to read more carefully. tyvm. You seem to be unable to comprehend, what i said.
I was referring to @blubleotaku fyi.
cheers.
Actually....
I've been here since F2P Launched WAY back in 2011 (WOO!). Unfortunately due to a foolish decision (and yes. It was extremely foolish. Never share your accounts, people) I've had to make a totally new one. Without getting into exposition, I can pretty much say I've experienced the best and worst of Pre-Alert and Post-Alert Champs.
..also, if you ever noticed a massacre of Bigfoot in canada before On-Alert.. you're welcome. (still never got enough bloody feathers..)
Also. I know that's you, Ryder. Your tryhard tone is so distinct.
You claimed that real life money expenditures would not be impacted. Yeah that right there shows either willfull ignorance or you are baiting. That big smiley at the end was awesome though. Take a hike.
*edit-Wait I remember you. You were the one who didn't understand the difference between dodge and avoidance in terms of mitigation, and your defense of that position was "neener-neener". What a little fool.
Well you quoted someone else, and forum join dates aren't necessarily "accurate". But I see what your point was now, I just think the original message was a bit convoluted =P
lol this was the same thing with devices but most didnt care at the time because it wasnt something that affected them.
i did cancel after the device nerf i saw the hand writing on the wall to me it looks like they are souring the milk here they are probable developing another game and will keep rolling out these changes till paying subs and c store revenue drop to the point they can close this and restart with a new game.
Here is my logic on this why nerf devices in pve why not just code the pvp zones to disable devices or better yet add a debuff while in that zone that super extends device timers/or adds a interrupt to a existing one (summons) that turns them off.
This would have made everyone happy the pvp people would have balance in the PVP zones no one would seem op and the people that invested so much in the devices would still get to use them. The ability to stack legacy devices was intended this was done to allow people to spend money to get them. Now after almost 2 years they decide it wasnt intended after they got mass fed $ from having this available?
lets look at the math 5000 zen for $50
that gets you 50 keys to trade for items in game if you dont want to go for chance and straight trade keys for items looking only at telos if you wanted to stack all 5 slots that would be about 3500 to 4500 or 35 to 45 keys per so 250 per character.
why would a company want to reduce its income potential from 250 per each character to 50 ?
They are going to keep reducing abilities they will loose first the subscribers then they will loose those that buy stuff from C store as they nerf more devices and people will stop buying there...
This is now also the case with dodge whats next is reducing the targets on epidemic?
Its just not looking good anymore guys
It's not ONLY Quarry, every Offensive Passive will be hit a lot by this.
Oh no. You only dodge 1/3 of the hits you're taking... please, god no.. don't make me experience this torture.
*laughs at the whining and hands over a bottle of Preperation-H* You need this.
My numbers are 29 crit and 45ish Dodge... do you see me complaining? NOPE. And all my crit and dodge is from gear.. soooooooooooo.. I'mma be hit worse than you, Mr. Quarry.
*runs off screaming "GLACIER POWER!"*
Spare me your belittling and condescending nonsense.
That you don't care does not mean I don't. I've invested far more time in this game than YOU Mr. September 2013. I'm well beyond 1500 days so those changes affect me quite a bit. The impact this has on you is nada, on people who have more expensive gear and multiple alts this is a big change.
My crit and dodge both dropped approx. 15 pts each. Wow! Sure am glad I doled all the money out for Legion Gear!
Went to Monster Island and nearly died fighting 2 Scarlet Serpent Initiates, 1 Red Guard Knife Fighter, and 1 Viper Commander. Yesterday I wiped the floor with these same four villains during a Unity mission.
At the same time that I was nearly dying, I watched some guy spamming two gun mojo who was hitting crit after crit after crit. My question is this: My chars live and die by dodge (and crit), yet how are they to survive if these changes go through. It seems to me that you're making things worse. Not to mention all of the money spent on Legion Gear and R7 mods that now provide me with an extra (and whopping) 6% crit and 10% dodge.
If guns are the problem, then nerf those. Don't take away my ability to defend myself against those same guns.
Better yet, LEAVE IT ALONE.
There was no problem to begin with. People just make excuses once they saw that nerfs are coming. The truth is that Cryptic wants to nerf us to sell us better gear in the future. Think about it, if they did not do that would would they do? Give us something better than Legion's? LOL yeah, if that does not make us extremely OP then I don't know what does.
All this fiasco about OP this OP that is due to the things that can be done using Legion's gear. Guess who gave it to us and why? Money? No way....Cryptic would not do that. :rolleyes:
All those "dodge/crit" balance changes are not needed at all. None of this will make it so people can make more diversified builds. What it does is kill off Offensive Passives (no survivability anymore).
Quite right. My unarmed melee with an offensive passive has been hit much much worse. It will require an entirely new build. This is not creating more diverse builds, it's killing them off.
That's the irony. If this is based off the min/maxer performance, what about everyone else?
No one ever says a marksman is OP, yet they have quarry and EM.
I'm actually curious who asked for the dodge/crit nerf? I don't remember seeing an outcry for it nor did I see dozens of threads about it. Cryptic just rolled it up and people started to make up excuses as to why it is needed. EM stacking was a problem? They increased the cool-down and nerfed it's dodge. OK why the dodge and crit nerf for the Offensive passives then? Why the weird crit rating changes? I see no other reason that greed and making room for the new and shiny Legion's MK II coming to a luckbox near you lol.
Offensives Passives are dead now, all of them but especially those that have no innate defenses. Whats the point of having DPS if you will die. Dealing 10k dps to a mob with 100k HP which can one shot you => you will never beat that boss EVER.
Once this hits I'll go back to Defensive Passives, at least with them even if I don't have that much dps I will be able to take down bosses and probably not die in Gravitar as much.
Forum Malvanum is going to be fun once it pops again. Going there with an offense toon = death and going with defense = not enough dps => fail. Oh well, guess Cryptic thought this through as usual. :rolleyes:
I too can solo just about anything, but I can also acknowledge that what I can do goes well beyond the average player.
If I were an amateur racer, comparing my performance to an F1 driver means I am a prodigy or that the comparison is deeply flawed. You can't expect to compare the massive skill level differences without huge disparities.
That's the thing though. It all depends on the build you make. If I want to make someone on Superman's power lvl then why not? If I want to make someone like Batman then why not?
The game is not really that hard but IT DEPENDS. Normal PvE is not a big deal but then you have things like Gravitar, Cybermind, Forum Malvanum where you need specialized and highly effective builds.
Cryptic fed us more and more power while giving us NO CONTENT that requires it (except for the alerts mentioned above). So people's reaction is "nerf us" ? Should it not be "give us content that requires those damned Letion's gear pieces" ?
IMO if those people want more challenge then they should run around with no gear. Why should everyone suffer because some elitist self centered and self righteous bunch can't get their kicks.
Oh and I make concept builds so they can never ever be absurdly OP. If people go around taking the most OP powers and making the most absurd and obnoxious gimmick build you can think of then who's fault is IT? Should everyone else suffer for this? I THINK NOT!
Most changes from what I can gather either are a product of certain players speaking to developers OR forum posts OR need to sell something OR fix something that wasn't explicitly intended.
In this instance, I believe it was a combination of the following:
- Players speaking to Developers
- Fixing something that was not explicitly intended
- Selling of a new "thing" (in this case JUSTICE GEAR)
On Alert, seriously boosted the survival and power levels in CO for your "average" character.
DPS, Tanking and Healing all got boosts, as well as general survival. DPS has remained consistently powerful and dodge/avoid allowed players to couple survival with high DPS, effectively nullifying the need for tanks/healers in some instances.
Certain aspects of the game, like Enemy NPCs, Crowd Control and certain powers were not dealt with in order to deal with the power creep and as a result we have relatively easy missions, dead/dying mechanics, solo-able lairs (which in actual fact were not intended to be solo'd) and other nigh-unkillable builds and a distinct lack of variety of builds in some cases.
However, having said that, I don't agree so much that everyone should be screwed over because a few people are able to do insane things BUT the issue is that if one person can do it, it isn't long until EVERYONE is able to do it.
I think in a nutshell that is what they are trying to prevent, even though it is really late in the game to be doing this, which is why it feels and will have a very large impact on play styles of "all" players ("all" for the sake of argument are those who use dodge/avoid).
I do wonder though how this will affect certain instances (as you mentioned) such as Forum Malvanum, if you need high DPS to get through some rounds and you need to survive as well in a time limited environment, will people bother to play such content if they know that going offensive will = likely death and going defensive will = staying alive but at a cost to DPS, bringing a tank or a healer into those situations is one less source of DPS.
Also I am wondering about Alerts where we side kick down cutting our (@lvl 40) effectiveness in half, will this mean there is less need or incentive to do alerts?
I don't like this change to dodge but it is seriously needed if you think about it. Whatever is being introduced next, be it Rampages, New Powers, New Boss Fights/Instances will need to be challenging enough for us to enjoy and not just steamrolling over it.
I cannot really use my argument of my main characters being highly affected by this (which they are) because one uses a useless mechanic which has little to no value in CO because it has been left that way and the other uses a defensive passive which uses dodge/avoid to be remotely defensive.
I think it is painfully obvious to players and Devs alike that things will have to change once this "fix" happens. Certain powers and Archetypes will need to be re-thought and restructured slightly or simply rebuilt or buffed, that much is clear, to what extent though is another matter entirely. I think if anything this is the ONLY good thing to come about from this dodge change, apart from an attempt to "balance things".
Crits are another matter though, I welcome this change entirely and yes I am affected on a number of my characters, 80% of my roster will gain a large chunk of crit chance, the other 20% will loose a considerable amount. However, they can still function the way I want them too.
(Note: It may seem like I am in two minds about this change, that's because I am. I am not overly fond of the prospect of being less able to survive across the board, especially with offensive passive toons but then again, I shouldn't really be super durable anyway with an offensive passive, I'm sacrificing defense for outright damage. I've tested toons I am overly worried about and it looks like for some I'll just have to steer clear of higher level content and other players in some cases, not to different to what I do for those toons now anyway.)
However, just because a small number of people can solo everything it doesn't mean this is the case for all of us. I haven't tried nor do I have any desire to solo everything in game.
And yes, I am a concept builder, I don't run around with insane franken builds which are absurdly over powered, so I am quite miffed about this change.
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Wow that was a long read
Anyhow, I personally don't think the changes are necessary. Furthermore, who will fix all the things that those changes will break? Who will compensate people for their time/money they spent?
I guarantee you that the things we thought of now are NOTHING, who knows in how many ways those changes will affect us.
Nobody is saying you have to be a tank with an Offensive Passive but if you can't survive then we go intro Trinity. Furthermore, defense has always been more valuable than offense. I does NOT matter how much dps you put out if you die before you defeat your enemy. It's as simple as that.
I don't agree with the changes they make. How am I supposed to survive with a 30% dodge chance? Pray the RNG is on my side?
Again, it's only those who abuse the game that are unkillable. I build concepts, and all powers have to fit that concept with very very little wiggle room.
Even if people are really powerful what's it to anyone really? it's a game why not let people have their fun? Exploits are one thing but this, is just killing off a part of the game.
With no defense Offensive Passives are useless. Before one can put out DPS one need to be able to survive to do it.
Apparently someone hasn't read the whole thread as I've already refuted the claim of being an "insperinced n00b kiddie".
Also. "Well beyond 1500 days" means you've been here long before the game existed since we're in our 4th year. 1500/365 is 4.109. 0.109 x 365 is 1 month and a week. We're a bit more than that at around 1600 days since launch (give or take a few in the tens place).. so "well beyond".. no.
ALSO, it doesn't depend on build entirely but Build and Gear. You can have an amazing build and mess up the gear portion (gearing healing power on an inferno or behemoth.. gearing only for super stats and CC Control on any build..) The thing people continue to fail to see is the GEAR portion is getting nerfed while the build portion is being changed so it's not entirely broken and you can still be the superpowered type.
Also.. "Offensive passives are never gonna be taken" Yes they are. Stop fearmongering. Do realize that you can have an offensive passive and still be hard to hurt with things like the Primal Circle and IDF as well as self heals. It will take a thing called "attention" to keep yourself from dying, but you can do it. Also, BLOCKING helps too. And all Offensive passives have defenses. All. Look through the wiki or even in the power window. Support passives don't, however, save for Seraphim IIRC.
1) It has not been stated when exactly such a change will be pushed to LIVE. I suspect though with these changes having their own blog so soon, they'll be on LIVE before the start of December, perhaps mid November or even in a few weeks time.
2) Personal Force Field Passive will remain the way it is for now. The dodge changes will likely decimate it's effectiveness and viability, returning it to it's "normal" state. It is obvious Personal Force Field and Regeneration and some other powers/passives will need to be altered and buffed to deal with the change. I assume that these will be dealt with AFTER the change has gone LIVE, perhaps being altered in the new year or if possible directly after the change hits LIVE or even with it.
3) LR @ 50% base + 19% from EM + dodge chance from other sources doesn't put LR in that bad a stead actually. So I think it would be an insult to LR to put it with PFF's Defend-Your-Passive category.
4) The dodge changes got dialled back further, for what reason I am not sure why. Also EM (apparently) has a longer CD. I think the intention there is that since dodge/avoid is the best form of mitigation in CO save immunity it should really be reserved for those who build for it.
Why the changes got dialled back as I said I don't know, but then again I am not a Developer.
Whilst I may not welcome the dodge changes, especially since I worked hard (and no doubt other players) to gain my current results, I can see why they can be seen as "needed".
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No idea what you want to say in your second paragraph. I'm here since closed beta. What exactly do you want to say with that calculation?
Have you tried the changes on PTS? How does your build look like? Oh my apologies, I have to build a gimmick toon now to be viable. My tech toon has to take Circles now?
Again, spare me the nonsense. I'm not blind, going from 57% dodge to 30% is huge. Your solution to this issue is to pigeonhole everyone is breaking their theme and taking X, Y, Z powers.
The defenses you talk about are nothing short of worthless. Won't keep you from dying over and over again.
Duel me, once these changes hit live. I bet i can change your opinion about the update within 4-5 duels.
Try to block something then. But ofc, make sure you are paying enough attention, first...
All i can think of right now is this
Your tech toon should have some heals already... Bio Shield and Blocking makes for an effective self heal. You don't have to build a gimmick toon to be effective, but you have to build one to be "DA BERY BEST DAT NO ONE EVA WAS." Also, who the hell cares about effectiveness in theme? My god, a majority of my RP builds sucked mechanically but I didn't care (Concussive Beams, PFF and Sorcery back before On Alert. Yeah.) Also, it is a big drop, yes. But it's not one that matters. Dodging a little over 1/2 the time dropped down to dodging around 1/3 of the time. And with Avoidance staying the same (Yep. Crit Sev and Avoidance are staying the same, people. Just the CHANCE that's being reduced.) that essentially means you're still gonna be taking a lot less damage than usual. Also, I can't stress this enough, the devs and players have stated that Offense and Defense are getting a buff of sorts to make them a suitable alternative to dodging and crits. Flat reduction vs a "Chance to take a lot less damage"
Sadly, I can't get on PTS because this new account is not gold (Nor will it be unless I can get a lifetime...).
Your comments might lead others to believe otherwise. That, and the spelling.
You have an entire AT pvp guide, but your comments alone there show you have little experience with them, even after all that the being a player here.
When offensive passives fail to be self-sufficient, people will switch to defensive passives and run hybrid instead, or something like AoPM.
If this dodge/avoid nerf is a response to all the dex/con/int tgm, md, em, evasive setups....what about everything else?
To justify the changes as they're currently proposed requires someone who doesn't care, someone who is paid to do so, or someone who believes that everyone can play at the highest levels.
That's what I plan to do. It does not matter how much you can heal if you don't mitigate any dmg. Once you are one shotted it's over. Can't really depend on others to keep me alive + I like to feel decently powerful. If I wanted to feel like a sidekick I would play DCUO.
Overall, I'm gonna see how this does. Might just get an entirely new formula build and start all over.
While I don't agree with this round of further reductions (I think the last PTS iteration was just about perfect), I don't think this is the death knell to offensive passives (in general) that you (and others) seem to think it is.
Enemies haven't been buffed substantially since On Alert, except for the new bosses and the prevalence of Tough enemies in some types of Alerts.
Against that, you have higher stats, innate offense (now buffed), defense from gear and spec trees.
Offensive passives were usable before On Alert, and are still going to be usable after this. I would suggest they get reworked to make them more attractive than just "lets you use the Offensive Roles". But that's an ease of use/attractiveness change, not a "these have to be buffed or the average player can never survive using them" thing.
The main problem here is ATs. And again, my proposed solution to that is to open up Freeform to everyone, even non-subscribers, and leave ATs as "template" starting points.
The AT concept is too far in power from the Freeform concept to be able to exist and have things be balanced.
And preventing Free-to-play players from experiencing the most unique part of the game is a bad decision, in my opinion.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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The user formerly known as Dr. Sage.
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1) Didn't imply that they should, I do think having LR @ 50% base that is a static value is not very conducive to having "Lightning Reflexes" but then again, that is what gear is for, if I recall correctly you can, with gear get more than 70% chance on dodge which is perfectly fine.
2) LR cannot be removed in combat without death. PFF can. LR remains defensive, as I stated earlier I think the idea behind this (not condoning this move though) is to make dodge EXLUSIVE to dodge centric passives. Again I have no idea why it was dialled back. LR right now on PTS "requires" nothing actually to make it work. Dodge rating Gear will just improve it's potency at doing it's job, Thundering Kicks, EM etc are all there to build on top of this and are probably best used in conjunction. I think they are trying to move back to melee being better than ranged for dodge purposes ( I could be wrong but I am not aware of many or any range powers which buff dodge in the way that some melee attacks can)
3) "Dialled Back" - is in reference to the new values on PTS for dodge. They were somewhat higher before this recent patch. So the values were dialled back to be lower in this current patch in comparison.
My Characters on PRIMUS
[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
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