Dodge/Crit Preview Dev Blog

sroark

Greetings Champions! As with the changes we made to Alerts, we are constantly striving to provide a great experience to all of you heroes in Millennium City. With that in mind we have some more updates to announce that we believe will help diversify builds and characters.

Preview the upcoming Dodge/Crit changes with Developer Chirs "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer.

Check out the full blog post here!

nepht

Hiyo new guy =^.^=

kenpojujitsu3

What Nepht said.

shadowzero66

Yay! More dev communication!

I still think Fluidity could use another look though.

This post has been edited to remove content which violates the PWE Community Rules and Policies -Smackwell

flyingfinn

Oh, we have a new target for our pitchforks.
/stachwiggle
:biggrin:

blkjackwilliams

Once the next iteration of these changes hits test, all the cosmic enemies and events should be set to super low timers so that players can test the less survivable characters against enemies like the mega-ds and Clarence.

gfnotaku1

Actually curious about Fluidity. Will it be replacing the blocks on the Dodge based ATs like Blade and Specialist?

crypticbuxom

Essentially with this preview, numbers will start looking like straight bonuses instead of their actual output is only half or less than displayed. We will refer to this as Cryptic Math.

These changes will make builds that abuse high dodge that made them unkillable to feel like how they are supposed to feel. Passive and Stat choice should determine overall survivability much more greatly than gear and dodge is upsetting that balance.

The crit chance changes aren't really changes but will show their true crit chance numbers rather than the Cryptic Math version, so those are irrelevant compared to the dodge changes. Goodbye Offensive passives being completely unkillable. This is a positive.

jonsills

The blog says, in bold letters no less, that the Doge effectiveness is being reduced. You mean I wasted all that time getting the patronage of the leaders of Renaissance Venice?

tekjordon

So....

Fluidity > Parry ?

And more importantly, do we get a freebie retcon?

wrathsoul1

jonsills wrote: »

The blog says, in bold letters no less, that the Doge effectiveness is being reduced. You mean I wasted all that time getting the patronage of the leaders of Renaissance Venice?

Reality struck you hard, did it?

shadowzero66

jonsills wrote: »

The blog says, in bold letters no less, that the Doge effectiveness is being reduced. You mean I wasted all that time getting the patronage of the leaders of Renaissance Venice?

I liked the part at the end where Lemuria didn't get mentioned.

wrathsoul1

shadowzero66 wrote: »

I liked the part at the end where Lemuria didn't get mentioned.

Don't we always avoid Lemuria?

But seriously. Reducing Doge? You sirs got a typo.

theravenforce

gfnotaku1 wrote: »

Actually curious about Fluidity. Will it be replacing the blocks on the Dodge based ATs like Blade and Specialist?

I reckon Master AT might get Fluidity as well as Specialist, Blade might stay the same.

avianos

But will DEFENCE get Upgraded with the Nerf of Dodge?
Because DEFENCE right now is USELESS!

embracemysword

Soooo, 1.5 years after introducing gamebreaking OP gear with 4 slots/ OP core mods aka. uranium cores... the only thing you guys can come up with is... to nerf everybody? Even those who do not happen to be using said overpowered items?


Brilliant cryptic - logic. I'm glad that a different dev - team is working on NW...

faredawg1

Hate this. Hate Hate HATE. Why bring down those who have spent so much money and time? You want to make us weaker...because others are weaker? The current dodge/crit system PROMOTES diversity! It allows you to have a much wider variety of power sets and stats, and still be viable. I have 13 totally different and viable toons that are only viable BECAUSE they utilize this system. Please don't do this. There is no reason too. Provide something new with your valuable time, don't take away from the game with it. Do not weaken us and say its a good thing.
:mad:

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embracemysword

Unkillable builds do not, didn't and won't ever exist. I killed any opponent put in front of me with a f2p blade AT. Even your "unkillable," imaginary - FF friends. We should now be worried about the damage output of certain skills, since they already hit quite hard without getting our survivability nerfed into oblivion.

If you claim otherwise, make a video oft an unkillable opponent and post it.

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cptmillennium

I really like reading about the thought process behind changes. Thanks for taking the time to share that with the community GC.


I have a question about how the revamped Offense stat will work. You said, "...we've made Offense's percentile bonus multiply Passive bonuses to damage". Does that mean Offense will only benefit players using offensive passives that grant damage bonuses? Will it do nothing for users of defensive passives?

embracemysword

gradii wrote: »

GAH! :eek: embracemysword makes sense? the world really is ending! :biggrin:

I do regret most of the stuff i posted on here and yeah, people can change.
[sometimes, it does take several kicks into the groin, first...]


Seeya.

lovehammer1

avianos wrote: »

But will DEFENCE get Upgraded with the Nerf of Dodge?
Because DEFENCE right now is USELESS!

I must of missed something. Did defense need dodge to "actually" be called Defense!
Or was defense always useless unless you had dodge? Are you saying without dodge you can't build a build that can defend itself on par with whatever build/builds you currently use?

In any case, why not wait until the changes hit. Try them out. Then scream useless if need be. Myself, I went to the pts and tried out the new changes, most of my builds use LR.
I thought the changes would cripple my builds. I was wrong. Do I like the changes? Not that much.

But my defense is far from useless. Just saying. Wait. Try out. Adapt. If not, there is always the forums to come to and scream, DEFENSE is useless!! If that helps you, that is.

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embracemysword

gradii wrote: »

yeah I'm also sorry for my knee jerk reactions earlier, your posts kinda ticked me off and I wasnt thinking at the time. back to the subject of nerfing everyone now I guess.

Don't worry, my posts used to tick the entire community off.

secksegai

"Please keep your comments relevant to this blog entry.

Sorry, comments are closed for this item."


I thought I "disliked" a certain dev for his apparent hatred of pvp, the crafting system, etc.


Let's force people to become more reliant on def passives.

Let's make any everyone re-evaluate their setup.

Let's make the majority of ATs even weaker than before.


Let's make changes that have a negative impact on the whole because a handful of people complain something is too strong, the same people that complain about everything and are completely ignorant of the player base experience other than their own.


We're not suddenly getting "challenge". Aside for a few instances elite serves no benefit and provides no reward. More "challenge" doesn't result in customer retention if it's still the same old content and the rewards have no real value in the current player market.

But hey, it wouldn't be the first time people left over changes.

lovehammer1

With all thats being said: Real Serious Question... Will Defense get a boost??
Offense has. Dodge gets a err... change. What happens to defense? Does it stay the same? Kind of important that people know this, right? MORE OFFENSE! Less defense?

This does not help things balance out IMHO. But, since nothing has been released yet.. is this something that's on cryptics radar? If not it should be. What happens if a pure defiance build is made and has no dodge to speak of? Would that be enough to survive a giant spike hit from Gravitar? Where as before it could with more dodge.

These are the kind of things that should be tested before going live. Discussed. Feedback taken in, then adjusted accordingly and released. Not too hard to do, right?

theravenforce

lovehammer1 wrote: »

With all thats being said: Real Serious Question... Will Defense get a boost??
Offense has. Dodge gets a err... change. What happens to defense? Does it stay the same? Kind of important that people know this, right? MORE OFFENSE! Less defense?

My opinion is that Defense will not be changed at all, or there aren't any plans to change it in view of this dodge nerf unless everyone becomes super fails and not even defense can save them.

It looks like the block function may make a comeback after all, with a serious vengeance. This is not to say that blocking isn't already a good form of defense it is but it may be more needed.

Ideally, a number of powers and things will have to change, so we can see just how bad they are without dodge.

The blog post didn't seem to indicate (to me) that Defense was being buffed to compensate. It does look like healers/tanks will be a lot more desirable to team with.

The dodge changes all but totally rubbishes the RR + Dodge combination that a few AT's and a wide range of FF players rely on.

I guess once the full impact of such a change is reviewed, things -may- be adjusted accordingly.

As it has been previously mentioned dodge did allow for more diversity, personally I wouldn't run an electric form passive build without decent defense and dodge or I'd be asking to face plant.

I think Offensive Passives which don't buff all round defense via dodge may have to be updated to "resist all" values (this will never happen).

I reckon the idea is that the squishy stay squishy whilst piling on offense for higher damage and relying on minimal dodge and defense.

In all seriousness, all types of builds will be affected in some way. It may severely limit what types of enemies people are willing to fight if their offensive passive only grants resistance and defense against some or one kind of damage.

I really don't think that the full impact of such a change (and no doubt ones to come) have been fully realised by some.

I know that if I don't focus in Gravitar with a squishy build I can easily get killed and that is with "almighty dodge/avoid."

Maybe dodge was changed in order to simulate challenge again because changing and updating mob AI would be a huge and "high risk" undertaking for CN to do currently?

Either way, I'm not going to beat around the bush, I'm not in favour of the dodge change, simply because it can make certain builds not only harder to play but it can make some entirely impossible to enjoy. But time will tell.

This is just my opinion however.

cptmillennium

I've tested the changes on PTS quite a bit, and my feeling is that Defense doesn't need to change. With Juggernaut from the STR tree, full Justice gear, The Best Defense from Guardian/Warden and Offensive Stance from Vindicator, as well as STR mastery, I'm able to get around 102% Defense using an offensive passive. That's half damage, and really the sweet spot for Defense before diminishing returns kick in.

As it is, Defense and Dodge builds now feel pretty comparable to me in survivability. If Defense got a boost it would be the obviously better choice, and we'd be right back where we started.

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cptmillennium

I don't think it's necessary to make things equal across all builds. Even so, I was still able to get to about 66% Defense by forgoing Juggernaut for Overpower, which I think makes for a pretty reasonable tradeoff between defensive and offensive ability. Similarly, one could go DEX or EGO PSS and get the same 66% Defense, along with the benefits of those trees.

Look at the new Earth Form for example. 66% base Defense to everything and a whole lot of damage resistance to Crushing on top of that is not bad at all. Not for an offensive form.

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cptmillennium

I don't believe STR is the "must have" PSS. It's appealing to a melee, but DEX is appealing to literally everyone. EGO is highly appealing to a ranged build. I've rarely looked at the other stats as a PSS honestly, which probably says something about them, but still...while STR does look a bit better now, that's only if you're taking CON as a SSS and you're willing to give up Juggernaut for Overpower. With the drop to crit chance, Overpower's 10% crit chance is looking awfully good.

An equally great melee build for survivability and better overall DPS would be to take the 66% base Defense, use Way of the Warrior to get 35% Dodge and 55% Avoidance, and take Overpower.

For the record, the build I began testing with on PTS to push my survivability with the new Justice gear and Juggernaut was working so well I got impatient and retconned into it on Live. It works just as well there under the current rules, with currently existing (admittedly high-end) gear.

theonious

In general, I think it's fundamentally flawed thinking that leads devs to nerf something that's being exploited, rather than boost or make equal the other options open to players. This way, things stack up equally and anyone who pays time and attention can be on more even ground.

Maybe the devs should try thinking like players instead of thinking like devs, so they can actually increase the joy others feel while playing their game.

trailturtle

cptmillennium wrote: »

I have a question about how the revamped Offense stat will work. You said, "...we've made Offense's percentile bonus multiply Passive bonuses to damage". Does that mean Offense will only benefit players using offensive passives that grant damage bonuses? Will it do nothing for users of defensive passives?

Not that, actually. This is all Cryptic Math, but the formula that we use to deal total damage used to not multiply Passive by Offense -- both of them increased your total damage, but there wasn't a multiplicative relationship. Now there is.

Players with Defensive Passives will still get bonuses from Offense -- it's just that, since they won't have as much of a passive bonus to damage, there won't be as much damage for Offense to multiply.

cptmillennium

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for that explanation.

praxis4

So we killed my dodge+crit toon. But we're just gonna say it's ok for ppl to spam two gun mojo? TBH that's the only reason I was building toons with high dodge. Instead of crippling all of my dodge melee toons, can we focus on the balance of ranged vs melee first?

ayonachan

I wrote too much. So I took out everything and just made this instead:

Avoidance|=| Resistance
n/a |=| 0.010001%(.01% avoidance but you can't have anything less than 20% avoidance)
n/a |=| 1.01%(1% avoidance but you can't have anything less than 20% avoidance)
n/a |=| 5.26% (5% avoidance but you can't have anything less than 20% avoidance)
n/a |=| 11.11%(10% avoidance but you can't have anything less than 20% avoidance)
20%|=| 25%
30%|=| 42.86%
40%|=| 66.67%
50%|=| 100%
60%|=| 150%
70%|=| 233.33%
80%|=| 400%
90%|=| 900%
97.8%|=| 4445.45%(Technically possible to do due to exploits)
99.99%|=| 999900% (Avoidance is "possible" but I doubt exploits can help you this far for resistance)
100%|=| n/a (You can't divide by zero, sorry.)

monaahiru

If you are going to fix Dodge/Crit balance, I wish for Hero Game Que fix... UTC, SH and ZA nearly never start now.

cybersoldier1981

I'll try it out, and if it sucks- it won't bother me as much. Not like these changes add anything for me to do.

kallethen

Just want to note: On the PTS, I tried out my PA toon that has Invul passive, low Crits and low Dodges but very high Offense and Defense. Took her around the higher level spawns in Monster Island. She was killing stuff faster and still was able to withstand blows.

So I would say the changes for Offense really do make a noticeable difference.

I would also say that defense doesn't suck. At least, if you actually build for some defense.

falchoin

Doesn't seem like such a bad change overall to me. Dodge builds (especially if using Evasivue Maneuvers) will benefit most from dodge gear. In some cases, like with Lightning Reflexes, it's even easier to achieve 100% dodge despite the lower curve because of passive changes. Otherwise it's better to use hp/defense gear (assuming the new Justice gear comes live at some point).

At least now primary defenses won't be a no-brainer pick of avoidance gear with a pair of gambler's stuffed into it.

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noyjitatpwe

Greeting champions were getting a new studio and our first order of business instead of content will be our world famous cryptic studios round of nerfs / game balance. We'll start off nerfing this and wait to see what players goto next and then well nerf that too.

Anger aside because I'm really sick of seeing this all the time in every cryptic game since city of heroes. How are you making this change without screwing over lightning reflexes which relies on stacking dodge/avoidance?

I hope your current changes are well thought out and that you won't push them to live without polling players by means other than the forums. Because only a small fraction of your community even uses the forums.

spikeydoo422

My chars use nothing but fists and feet, yet now you're going to take away their ability to dodge attacks? If so, then what is the point of playing? I know I must be missing something here, but all of this is still kinda new to me, as this is the first and only online game I've ever played. Is all of this being done just to satisfy the people who spend their days dueling in RenCen (not that there's anything wrong with that). I'm not trying to be a poophead, I just don't understand what this will do to my chars. I just spent a fortune outfitting them with new gear and mods.

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spikeydoo422

praxis4 wrote: »

So we killed my dodge+crit toon. But we're just gonna say it's ok for ppl to spam two gun mojo? TBH that's the only reason I was building toons with high dodge. Instead of crippling all of my dodge melee toons, can we focus on the balance of ranged vs melee first?

I agree with this. Is this Champions online, or Commandos Online?

gerberatetra

falchoin wrote: »

Doesn't seem like such a bad change overall to me. Dodge builds (especially if using Evasivue Maneuvers) will benefit most from dodge gear. In some cases, like with Lightning Reflexes, it's even easier to achieve 100% dodge despite the lower curve because of passive changes.

Really?


Explain this, I am having some serious trouble believing it.

Also, let me preface this, if 100% dodge can be achieved without the best gear and mods you can grind for, I'll be stunned