Not quite, but close. Can't discuss things before they're released, but I did want to avoid misconceptions.
Just tell me it's going to be as good as NW's version so it's not super amazingly obvious that Cryptic loves them way more than us. This is our FOURTH anniversary after all. Oh and thanks for stopping by TT. IMO, you're doing what others should be doing but I have no issue giving you the thanks for stepping up to their bar.
Also, let's be clear about something Zero mentioned pages ago and ellaborate on it.
Once upon a time we had Click Upgrades. One dev removed them(with alot of other stuff). Later the same Dev changed one of them(Pheremones pet level) and then copy/pasted them all into devices. The break in standards was seen immediately and many conversations both on and off of the forums happened. Then NEVERWINTER happened(See: "New" Telepathy timegap). The problem with Legacy devices never got addressed because there was nobody here to address it. Team Lordgar was up to his gills making mini-Mega-Events with/without/WhoTheHellKnows Cryptic North. The person who converted the Legacy Devices was on NW since the game was behind schedule and neck deep in exploits.
People call the Legacy Devices Exlpoits...For the most part this is not true. There are some cases where the game content has reacted in exploit-like ways to content and I'm sure a few people took advantage but, overall, the main issue with the Legacy Devices was something that used to be unique not having the effects of being made non-unique being considered at all, despite having the PTS testers and other people say so multiple times. IMO, this is a case of the PTS process failing....and it's not even remotely the 1st time or last time.
People want to further the playerbase divide by saying this is a "PvP Only Issue" and not a "Overall Balance Issue." IMO, this is just a way to enrage PvEers against those foul dirty PvPers who were too stubborn to quit when a dev tried to kill their entire aspect of the game with On Alert. How dare they. No, this is an overall balance issue and anyone who played when the Click Upgrades existed should have seen the writing on the wall. I know multiple people, myself included, who have like 5 NPGs.....unbound....because I was afraid to use them all since myself and some others kinda knew this was coming all along(more accurately hoped it was coming).
As for the "Economic Impact" angle. You're saying that if the unbind happens that people will be able to sell spares, prices will go down, and those who are not members of the various paths to the "Ultra-Rich crowd" will be able to obtain one? Ok, I'm cool with that. Just like a real economy prices fluxuate with up and down turns in the overall market. Look on the bright side, if they hadn't gone with the unbind(which hasn't happened yet so don't get over-expecting since there's a difference between "working on" and "made it happen") then you would have made nothing and completely eaten the loss. In this case you might get the chance to recoup some of your loss while I finally pick up the Pheremones I've killed a certain dino THOUSANDS of times to not get for a pet toon I've had since 2009 who just wanted 5 dinos in total(command animals) vs. 17 dinos. Congratulations, we win.
Also, not naming names, but I see people in here tossing around the dreaded forum "F" Word(facts). I ask that if you feel compelled to use this particular word that you, please, have some to go with the use of that word. It is almost never the correct case that it's a "Fact" that one person's opinions on the forums are to have the ability to mindread the entire community.
Ok, now can we please get back to the actual testing and using this thread for what it's supposed to be about before TT has to come in here and split the entire thing into two parts?
P.S. cptcooltastic: Elder Worm Humidity Dome. This should get you the look you're after for the most part. :biggrin:
Yes it's not bad on change but really 1 year and you guys finally do something. I agree with Bacon Overlord. He said enough but I got one thing to say I do pvp a lot and there are those who goes over board using devices but furthermore with other useful devices such as how many times dino you can have or teleiosarus phermones. I can say I'm back to pveing more, so with a pvper mindset i dont just pvp all the time and look for trouble I get to do Therakiel Runs, Dark speed runs and Alert missions. So it should be in your consideration that pvpers once again ruin things but I'm pretty sure the RP and PVE crowd uses these devices as well. With these changes your game i can say is just dying more. Since the first day I started there were 15+ instance full of people and last night i logged on 3 instances barley make 30 people on what is going on. Most of all since yall like to nerf and change things such as Imbue Fc is nerf, Enrage UR is nerf and why not Ebon ruin that needs to get nerf since its a hard hitting power that harasses all builds including healing debuff from it and all pvpers equips it. I am not one to say but the healing debuff should be taken out so tanks/melee have a chance when comes to pvping. People say dmg isn't great but when everyone has good gear and mods ofc everything will crit hard, so who needs EBON RUIN not the rp players, and definitely not the pve players. Was Ebon ruin even needed? It doesn't affect boss runs but only players, and players quit so there goes your income so does this mean its destroying the funnest of the game or was there a skill power that never really should be there. All the changes and yall don't look at the unforeseen things. ER=Ebon Ruin that no AT's have a chance against and yall are removing devices that goes good for pve and many others that loves to do missions with. Don't know what to say. Sure gave this game a chance coming back but it just gets more over killed. Last and final request instead of ruining pve devices like MY DINO aka Teleiosarus phermones that i have on 4x in slot can you at least bound it from pvp and keep it on for PVE RUNS..... TY
1. Device overuse is bad unless it's my multiple pheremones.
2. PvPers ruined the game...but they didn't because other people use devices too but you bolded up the PvPer bit?
3. Nerfing stuff you like is bad and bringing about the DOOM of this game but could you please nerf Ebon Ruin to dust because it's evil and nobody uses it except those vile PvPers?
4. Paragraphs are hard but bricks of text are awesome!
1. Device overuse is bad unless it's my multiple pheremones.
2. PvPers ruined the game...but they didn't because other people use devices too but you bolded up the PvPer bit?
3. Nerfing stuff you like is bad and bringing about the DOOM of this game but could you please nerf Ebon Ruin to dust because it's evil and nobody uses it except those vile PvPers? 4. Paragraphs are hard but bricks of text are awesome!
That's just plain silly. Let's just re-read TT's post, shall we?
Actually PWE and Cryptic are on the hook for the full liability in this situation. It's not as though people were told this wasn't the way it was supposed to work, (at any point in the last YEAR) given any indication via official channels on the launcher or information website that indicated that these devices weren't being used properly and to expect a change. In fact (the F word) NOTHING was done, nothing was said and nothing was even hinted at as far as there being an issue.
Having said that now, for about the THIRD time in a post in this very thread.. let me now explain.. AGAIN.. why this has an impact on the person.
If they weren't told this was wrong or that there was an issue, then they aren't liable in this situation. Cryptic and PWE are. They allowed what they are now calling (paraphrasing) "things that were not working as intended" to go on for over a year. And, I have to say, it's odd that it would go on for that long unless we look at the motivation for this to happen. Gosh, people were buying FIVE TIMES (at minimum) as many devices.. requiring FIVE TIMES as many keys (at minimum) giving FIVE TIMES the revenue. Oh.. now it's pretty obvious what was going on.
So.. when I said LIABILITY, I mean on the part of PWE and Cryptic. Just saying "oh well" and discounting the folks that weren't breaking any rules, they weren't exploiting or abusing.. they were simply using devices as they were INTENDED to be used (sorry, but silence isn't golden, it's legally called compliance). So punishing them by taking away the use of those devices doesn't make a lick of sense.
There HAS to be some compromise. In fact, there shouldn't even be any loss on their part. Cryptic needs to come up with something that blows their socks off and makes them feel they are still getting a decent deal even though they are out tons of farming/zen and, of course, the devices themselves.
Just rolling out a patch that "fixes" something that NOBODY said was broken isn't going to fit the bill. Not at all.
Cryptic and PWE are infamous for non-communication. So, let me go ahead and suggest this get a front page spot on the launcher AND the News section of the webpage, if not a message the first time people log in that are going to be affected by this. This is, of course, if you want to keep those people as customers.
As far as what to come up with.. I've given you a couple suggestions, I'm sure other people can come up with some too. But the bottom line you have to remember: These are costumers that are being told, in some cases, that the last YEAR of saving and farming was for nothing and the items they purchased are being taken away.
If you don't go into it with that point of view.. this WILL blow up in your face. And the naysayers will do what they do best.. be shortsighted. But there's no arguing the obvious. And that's what my posts are... simply the obvious put into words.
I would really think long and hard about how to compensate them and make it something spectacular that ONLY they can have access to perhaps. Like a vendor that will exchange their bound devices (of specific types) for questionite (varying amounts based on the market value of the devices), zen, other devices (specifically ones unique to this apologetic fix from Cryptic for not taking action sooner) like vehicles, mark 3 weapons, etc.
That might sound like overkill, but when you have folks that have literally (and I know, I sold those devices to most of them) saved for months to buy two devices.. then they lose the use of one for NO REASON except laziness, poor coding, lack of attention to detail, poor QC, ineffective testing, questionable motives and, to top it all off, a 'fix' that comes in the midst of a virtual SWAMP of issues that have been around before the devices were even introduced... much older issues that really need to be fixed, but for some odd reason... this takes precedence.
Sorry, I've been an avid supporter for a LONG time.. look up some of my posts from years-past. I was the one saying.. stay positive, stay optimistic.. don't say negative things in the forums.. people will read it and leave.
And yet here we are.. about to roll out a patch that is questionable, at best.. could be called lazy fixes that couldn't result in anything other than a negative impact on the game (at best). I'd say I'm joining the other team until you guys can pull your heads out.
This message brought to you by the superhero:
Bacon Overlord
All available action figures, check.
Hit the global cap, check.
All lore and event perks done, check.
All 1K mob perks done, check.
All nemesis mob perks done, check.
Break 20,000 perk points, check.
Complete all 5K perk points, stay tuned!
P.S. cptcooltastic: Elder Worm Humidity Dome. This should get you the look you're after for the most part. :biggrin:
LoL, I actually thought of this thing as I was typing that last bit about the Hologram. I had me one of them Humidity Dome's back when it was still a mission reward out in MI. The thing is fantastic for a ghost/phantom concept. Especially with that eye glow.
I had just tossed the Hologram Device idea out there as a fun tid bit they might want to consider, I have no actual plans for such a thing myself. But the hologram tech is pretty cool, might be amusing to use it with a Super Magnifier and join the rest of the Champions in the HQ.
Main thing was getting Sapph's clothes! With or without her in them.
<snip>
Sorry 'bout that, folks. Might've went overboard with those comments.
I still say people are blowing this whole patch out of proportion. I understand that they may have dropped a lot of time and money into getting these devices, but they should've seen this sort of stuff coming, considering all the complaints that were popping up involving them.
I have previously been an avid player. I am around a 1000 day paying subscriber. I spent hours every day playing champions. Loved it. Several months ago I quit completely for six months due to the poor treatment we receive when we have issues (no customer support). A friend convinced me to give it another chance. So I did, and now we gt screwed over again...
I only have this to say, if the unbind happens and I have to buy it you will never see me log in again. Same if an unbind doesn't happen. I spent a fortune on the devices I have. Much of it was real money. And I question the legality of it, much less the ethical aspect...
I know I will get the usual response of "see ya, just go away". Well that kind of ignorant attitude is why the player base has eroded to where it currently is... So when everyone has "gone away" and they shut off the servers I hope you are content with that attitude.
I am sorry for the bitter tone people, it's just hard to not be bitter after all of this. It isn't just this one issue. It is the long string of issues. The on alert changes, losing all of my crafting recipes that I paid big in game money for. Losing my crafted travel power device. It just ever seems to end and it is getting ridiculous.
Ps. I was not using my devices to unbalance pvp or anything. I don't even pvp since on alert came out and acclaim became useless and I get no ego fix from pvp.
I have previously been an avid player. I am around a 1000 day paying subscriber. I spent hours every day playing champions. Loved it. Several months ago I quit completely for six months due to the poor treatment we receive when we have issues (no customer support). A friend convinced me to give it another chance. So I did, and now we gt screwed over again...
I only have this to say, if the unbind happens and I have to buy it you will never see me log in again. Same if an unbind doesn't happen. I spent a fortune on the devices I have. Much of it was real money. And I question the legality of it, much less the ethical aspect...
I know I will get the usual response of "see ya, just go away". Well that kind of ignorant attitude is why the player base has eroded to where it currently is... So when everyone has "gone away" and they shut off the servers I hope you are content with that attitude.
I am sorry for the bitter tone people, it's just hard to not be bitter after all of this. It isn't just this one issue. It is the long string of issues. The on alert changes, losing all of my crafting recipes that I paid big in game money for. Losing my crafted travel power device. It just ever seems to end and it is getting ridiculous.
Ps. I was not using my devices to unbalance pvp or anything. I don't even pvp since on alert came out and acclaim became useless and I get no ego fix from pvp.
I know I said I was done, but to me this hits at home. So this will be my last comment:
Tach is one of the most impressive builders I have ever seen. He does not need to use devices at all, and makes builds sans devices that would crush practically anyone. I do not make this claim lightly. He is that good.
He is also one of the most reasonable and generous customers/players i have had the pleasure of meeting here, and I am proud to call him my friend. If Tach ever saw you in genuine need, he would (literally in some cases in PvE) move heaven and earth to assist you. Like a hero would. If one was down on their luck Tach was/is always there to help.
Cryptic, this is the type of customer you want to keep, not alienate. He has accepted many of your mistakes that have cost him and us the playerbase big time. He is still willing to play. Read his words carefully, and please, do not turn the implied official response of some method of unbinding into vaporware.
Hey all, just wanted to weigh in on this one really quick.
We made these devices available in the Drifter store because they're a lot of fun to play around with. They were never intended to be a core part of the CO experience, and they're certainly not balanced for players to have 5 of them running at once. (It's worth noting that the original items were limited to one at a time.)
Part of releasing any item into the game is watching for any unintended consequences that cause harm to the game as a whole, and then working to correct those issues. That's what we're doing in this case: Having items like this is making it more difficult and time-consuming to create new content, and hurting existing content.
I know that many of you have raised the point that these items are bound, and that you are worried that you'll end up with devices that you can't use. We are working on a way to convert your existing devices into unbound devices that you can sell, trade, etc. We'll let you know when we have more details on how that will work.
-TrailTurtle
Okay, stop. Just stop. It took a whole YEAR AND A HALF of "watching for any unintended consequences that cause harm to the game as a whole" to realize that there might be an issue here? Seriously? A 5 year old with an abacus could have given your results to you in at least a month. Said 5 year old probably could also have told you when the Backup! devices hit PTS that releasing a level 60 anything at the beck-and-call of a player would be a bad idea. As a matter of fact, I'll do one better than that 5 year old, veteran players DID tell this to the powers-that-be and they were released regardless.
So, don't be surprised at people balking when, after a fourth of the game's existence passes by, Cryptic finally takes an interest in cleaning up the mess that didn't have to happen in the first place. It's like not parenting your child for a good portion of their development and then being surprised when the resulting teenager turns out not to have raised themselves to be an upstanding citizen.
Also, WHAT NEW CONTENT? Alerts are not content, or an adequate content substitute and you don't create TWO missions and then rest on your laurels and brag that you've added content to the game.
Furthermore, don't take this as an argument against the devices changes - I'm not here to argue that, but... who honestly, truly, actually cares about "hurting existing content" when said content hasn't changed in years, or in a lot of cases, since launch? There are powers that were released less than a couple of weeks ago that probably demolish existing content. I can trivialize an Alert with powers that have been around since launch.
I could go on about the fact that Alerts themselves "hurt" existing content by encouraging new players to use them to gain experience and level up instead of doing said content, thereby enabling if not flat out encouraging the bypassing of entire sections of the game, but I think you get the point.
I know you're not personally responsible for any of the development aspect of this game, but with all due respect, stop insulting our intelligence.
"I would be curious of your circles because I know I've never heard of you." - championshewolf
3 sentences in and i was covering my balls.Those are good points but was there a reasonable option that would have pleased everyone? I mean if you could ask for something reasonable.
I think people in possesion of extra t pheremones should get an inborn tenacity as a replacement. If people complain, then the hypocrisy is highlighted.
So bacon is finally quitting over losing some of his biggest exploits? Or is he gonna keep flaunting his egotistical crap all over and exploiting events to get the top of leaderboards because he has to be the coolest person in CO?
I hope it's the former.
PS: Bacon, your sig makes you look like a giant idiot. It's like you invented a punctuation mark (your sig) that invalidates everything you ever post in your essay long posts.
I personally will be affected on around 3-5 toons.
I don't PvP because of the device war it has become, maybe this change will make PvP that much more bearable?
The hardest hit will be my pet master (she has 3 pheromones, I got them all from boxes), but in actual fact as long as I have one pheromone I don't need the others out, as soon as I heard this news I started playing with just one active, still works fine, not as many dinos granted but as a pet master, IMO, that is what you want to be a -master- over your pets, not have them running around in giant uncontrollable packs (even though it does look funny! )
Best thing to do is to just get used to running with one instead of multiple devices..
I had no idea things like Eruption and NPG could actually stack before I saw them in PvP.
I really (when I think about it) should have expected this change/fix. Why? Remember what happened with Team Energy Surge? Some people actually built around it and didn't bother with energy management or anything and when it got changed they were affected. Same thing is happening again.
Moral of the story? Don't build around devices.
That's my personal take on things...
NOTE: I spent a sizeable amount of RL money on these devices via Keys and Lockboxes, So yes, I am upset that this has happened but I'll have to deal with it. I do hope we get compensation via this unbind mechanic that was spoken about earlier. It sure would help.
Dear Cryptic, I know I've been caught with my hand in the cookie jar by abusing stacks of these devices for almost a year, even though it was obviously a bug that would eventually be fixed.
And I know TrailTurtle has already gone out of his way to state that some mechanism of unbind will be offered, going far above and beyond any previous precedent for these types of fixes.
But I will not be satisfied until at least one member of the Cryptic North team comes to my house and personally services me to completion, and then offers a kleenex, with the entire event being livestreamed by TrailTurtle.
If this doesn't happen, then the .1% of the game population that is stubborn about abusing this bug will all quit forever, and PWRD's stock will probably go to 0, and there may even be sharknados.
P.S. I was also affected by the Hawkwing prototype nerf, and helped lead the effort to get those changes rolled back, but this situation is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The fact that this is finally being fixed is actually strengthening my confidence in the game (with the obligatory I've also been around since beta and spend lots of money..blah blah)
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
I have only two toons affected by the coming device change, though neither one is built specifically around the devices.
Cryptic has to compensate device-owners for the sake of the community at large. If small, but vocal, chunk of players rages for a week or so in-game before leaving, it will cause others to quit or not stay if they just joined.
The Devs also have to provide compensation for their own integrity, reputation, and trust. Recently, there has been much more Dev work, including actually listening to player input. If the device change does not compensate owners in a reasonable way, the Devs will squander what goodwill they have built up in the past 6 months.
This should not be a discussion if this should happen, it should of never happened in the first place. We should be discussing the two way relationship between PWE and the Customer about cost and services. To ignore that discussion at the expense of the customer damages the credibility of that relationship and puts the customer at increased risk within this relationship. By NOT offering unbinding tokens communicates PWE will never take responsibility in their design and content, i.e lock boxes., at the customers COST. As the customer "buy at your own risk." Typically the lowest level of a relationship one can get between services and cost. I've seen a lot of replies in this thread that it should be the customers responsibility to know that the content they are spending money on has not been thought through and designed correctly. Just how do you expect someone new to the game to know the dino build they purchased was their fault? The responsibility here is solely on PWE's shoulders since they charged and reaped the benefits of those lock boxes.
If an unbinding token is not offered you as the community can stop making any and all threads that have anything to do with making the game better and just drop the entire illusion that our role is not to be taken to the cleaners as many times as possible. PWE can at least do the bear minimum to keep the illusion alive and gleam more revenue in the future. If not, you may want to take a second to think before giving your money to PWE on future purchases.
Hey all, just wanted to weigh in on this one really quick.
I know that many of you have raised the point that these items are bound, and that you are worried that you'll end up with devices that you can't use. We are working on a way to convert your existing devices into unbound devices that you can sell, trade, etc. We'll let you know when we have more details on how that will work.
-TrailTurtle
If you can do that, I think it's perfectly reasonable. And with only one Eruption in my device bar, I won't have to feel guilty about using it (in PvE at least, it's still a bit dodgy in duels IMHO).
__________________________________________________
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
P.S. I was also affected by the Hawkwing prototype nerf, and helped lead the effort to get those changes rolled back, but this situation is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The fact that this is finally being fixed is actually strengthening my confidence in the game (with the obligatory I've also been around since beta and spend lots of money..blah blah)
I wouldn't consider them completely different. In both situations, players paid real money to acquire devices that were changed dramatically.
I myself spent no "real" money in my acquisition of my prototypes, but I spent "real" time earning resources to acquire them from other people for ones I didn't earn in the grab bag itself. I consider an investment of time to be significantly valuable, as a game world revolves around players investing their time one way or another.
As far as the jets go, I could accept the speed nerf since it was affecting server stability. But would have I invested the time and effort to acquire jets if they were released in their current state? Not at all. This can be seen in the general lack of interest people have in vehicles and vehicle mods. My jets serve little purpose other than an extra travel power or a trophy to sit in a vault.
As far as devices go, I only came back recently so I didn't have the resources (well wasn't willing to spend/sell) to acquire said devices in multiples. But I also know it wasn't uncommon for people to spend real money to acquire them. For them to make said investments and not be compensated is hardly different from the jets to me.
Hell, I left shortly after the jets were nerfed and I was actually partially compensated. A change needed to occur, but in reality the problem should have never been allowed to grow to its proportion in the first place. Those players who invested deserve recompense otherwise it's just going to lead to more people walking out.
It's hard enough for me to sell stuff to the shrinking community base, and I'm no where near Bacon's level.
2) Complaining about your stupidity for thinking 5 phermones is balanced, or 5 eruptions, or 5 ice grenades (which stun Cosmics).
I believe that YOU feel it's the customers fault for spending $500 dollars on something and it's OK for the vendor to come and take it back without offering compensation.
I believe that YOU feel it's the customers fault for spending $500 dollars on something and it's OK for the vendor to come and take it back without offering compensation.
-Xeno
'
In the end, it is the customer's fault. We've been customers here for 4 years now, we know how the business works in this game. If you're stupid enough to pay into the system you know will rip you off then you deserve it.
Protip: No one should ever have spent a penny on lockboxes. If those of you that did hadn't bought them, they would've been scrapped from development plans for the future. And we wouldn't have this situation at all, because those devices could've been tested before going live.
They weren't though, because they required piles of cosmic keys to get a hold of and were only on PTS for a week, where oddly enough the Zstore has been disabled since PWE took over. It's almost as though they didn't want people to find out how completely they were being ripped off buying keys for bull**** lockboxes... Go figure!
TL;DR: The ones who pay for the bull**** are the ones who are going to receive it. Therefore it is in fact, their fault. Either you deal with it, or you cry like a petulant child in 15,000 word long posts on the forums that no one will read.
And there's a lot of crying over something that they've now said they're working on giving compensation for. But honestly, good luck getting rid of those devices now that everyone who wants them likely already has five times as many as they can even use.
I have only two toons affected by the coming device change, though neither one is built specifically around the devices.
Cryptic has to compensate device-owners for the sake of the community at large. If small, but vocal, chunk of players rages for a week or so in-game before leaving, it will cause others to quit or not stay if they just joined.
The Devs also have to provide compensation for their own integrity, reputation, and trust. Recently, there has been much more Dev work, including actually listening to player input. If the device change does not compensate owners in a reasonable way, the Devs will squander what goodwill they have built up in the past 6 months.
You know what squanders goodwill? Putting the first full costume set in over a year, behind a damn lockbox, that's what.
In the end, it is the customer's fault. We've been customers here for 4 years now, we know how the business works in this game. If you're stupid enough to pay into the system you know will rip you off then you deserve it.
So, using your logic, should I also assume since PWE is a Chinese based company the goal here is to sell me on fake perfume and purses and I should of understood that before walking into the store? I feel that perspective deserve to get victimized if the merchant markets the items directly to you and all you will do is blame yourself, why not?
Also most of your assumptions based upon a long term player base is simply just not true. The majority of the player base is new people, every 3 to 4 months. On-Alert began the theme park MMO business model. You come for awhile, drop some coin and move on, hence why we have lock boxes in the first place. It's a business model to extract the maximum value of a game on the shortest time line. After a few months you offer new content at a cost, the cycle then repeats itself. Only a small percentage of players actually stay. So how do you expect new players to know they are going to get ripped off without having any previous experience being ripped off? As a long term player I feel you should be standing up for yourself and not publishing propaganda that supports the victimization of yourself or this community. In short, grow some balls man.
This is not true, majority of the player base is new people every 3 to 4 months in a theme park MMO business model. You come for awhile, drop some coin and move on, hence why we have lock boxes in the first place. It's a business model to extract the maximum value of a game on the shortest time line. After a few months you offer new content at a cost, the cycle then repeats itself. Only a small percentage of players actually stay.
Using your logic, should I also assume since PWE is a Chinese based company the goal here is to sell me on fake perfume and purses and I should of understood that before walking into the store? With your perspective you deserve to be victimized, shoot I would love to sell you defunct product too if in the end all you will do is blame yourself. So, I guess if you want to play the victim and put it all on yourself, be my guest. But I've been a customer here for 5 years as well and I don't agree with your logic. If I did we both be wrong.
.
Tecnically both you and sanguineviper are correct. if we do buy them then they think we like them. So if we do not buy the lockboxes then we can try to show them we do not appriciate them.
i bought past lockboxes because I use the mods that drop and fuse them, but now that they put the first FULL costume set in a year behind it (yeah I will continue to beat that horse) I will not purchase this Lockbox or spend another dime her until we start getting Costume sets in the C-Store again.
So for now, I am done spending money here, another game can get my business.
I wouldn't consider them completely different. In both situations, players paid real money to acquire devices that were changed dramatically.
You've always been reasonable and I respect your opinion, but here are the differences between this and the prototype situation as I see it:
1.) The prototypes were sold directly by Cryptic. Most of the legacy device transactions that people are complaining they spent so much time/money on were private player transactions. It's not Cryptic's fault someone decided to pay another player 20000G for a temporary "I Win" button.
2.) The prototype jets were fundamentally and drastically nerfed from their original functionality. The legacy devices are not significantly changing here; they are just fixing a bug that allowed people to stack them. People that used them as they were intended (not stacking) are not being affected at all.
3.) Stacking the items was obviously causing major balance issues in both PvE and PvP. I don't believe this was the case with the prototypes.
4.) TrailTurtle has already said some method of unbind will be offered; a huge departure from previous fixes. When we campaigned for satisfaction with regard to the prototypes, we (at least I) just asked for a reversal of the Zen transactions. If players were to ask to return a pair of the legacy devices for 40 Drifter Salvage, I think that is comparable and completely fair.
LTS since 2009. Author of ACT parser module for CO. Founder of Rampagers. Resident curmudgeon.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
4.) TrailTurtle has already said some method of unbind will be offered; a huge departure from previous fixes. When we campaigned for satisfaction with regard to the prototypes, we (at least I) just asked for a reversal of the Zen transactions. If players were to ask to return a pair of the legacy devices for 40 Drifter Salvage, I think that is comparable and completely fair.
Only after the community pointed out the risks of betraying the customer, vendor relationship at the cost of future revenue from new lock boxes.
Had we all adopted some of the other peoples opinions and taken the advice from people like blademaster and sanguineviper, we be buying Vaseline stock instead of lock boxes.
You've always been reasonable and I respect your opinion, but here are the differences between this and the prototype situation as I see it:
1.) The prototypes were sold directly by Cryptic. Most of the legacy device transactions that people are complaining they spent so much time/money on were private player transactions. It's not Cryptic's fault someone decided to pay another player 20000G for a temporary "I Win" button.
2.) The prototype jets were fundamentally and drastically nerfed from their original functionality. The legacy devices are not significantly changing here; they are just fixing a bug that allowed people to stack them. People that used them as they were intended (not stacking) are not being affected at all.
3.) Stacking the items was obviously causing major balance issues in both PvE and PvP. I don't believe this was the case with the prototypes.
4.) TrailTurtle has already said some method of unbind will be offered; a huge departure from previous fixes. When we campaigned for satisfaction with regard to the prototypes, we (at least I) just asked for a reversal of the Zen transactions. If players were to ask to return a pair of the legacy devices for 40 Drifter Salvage, I think that is comparable and completely fair.
The jets caused what they perceived to be pve problems, which in turn led them to nerf them to uselessness.
Some devices are seeing major change. Psionic's sole value was its ability to deny even ascension with its -100 flight. Now it simply becomes omicron in an even weaker state with a long cd.
You couldn't stack jets, in the device sense.
Device stacking was allowed to flourish till they realized it caused enough of an issue to negate the money it was generating. Stacking devices meant more money spent, otherwise they would have shut it down months ago if not prevented the problem outright.
In both cases, people invested time/effort/money to acquire these items only for them too lose major value down the line. When people see this pattern repeat itself, they are far less inclined to spend money if not leave outright. That is bad for all of us in an already shrinking community.
I stopped spending my own money on the game a while back and have relied on trading in game resources. I also left for several months, and may very well end up going again with the market almost completely dictated by the boxes.
I as a consumer have little faith in the product and even as a free 2 play there's not a whole lot holding my interest at the moment. This is probably going to be the first taste of what the CoX refugees get of CO customer service. It may be their last too.
OK. For all of those people crying over Devices, which btw wasn't even suppose to be a major part of the game mind you, they are not taking them away!
They are simply not allowing them to be stacked and ABUSED! Also, it was game breaking.
In order to implement other things, such as fixes and content and other changes mentioned by TT... This had to happen.
The only problem i see, is getting proper compensation for the devices that YOU bought more than 1 of. Money is Money, and people should get something back for spending that kind of coin. But, i also think the buyer should take some responsibility for the selfish and gluttonous way this came about. I mean, you know when you're abusing the system... c'mon. 5 Eruptions? As many Dinos as Jurassic park? Karma is a beetch, but i love her sometimes.
OK. For all of those people crying over Devices, which btw wasn't even suppose to be a major part of the game mind you, they are not taking them away!
They are simply not allowing them to be stacked and ABUSED! Also, it was game breaking.
In order to implement other things, such as fixes and content and other changes mentioned by TT... This had to happen.
The only problem i see, is getting proper compensation for the devices that YOU bought more than 1 of. Money is Money, and people should get something back for spending that kind of coin. But, i also think the buyer should take some responsibility for the selfish and gluttonous way this came about. I mean, you know when you're abusing the system... c'mon. 5 Eruptions? As many Dinos as Jurassic park? Karma is a beetch, but i love her sometimes.
Proper compensation? that fact that people will be getting something to unbind them should be enough. It is not Cryptic's fault players took advantage of a blatant bug in an open market.
Proper compensation? that fact that people will be getting something to unbind them should be enough. It is not Cryptic's fault players took advantage of a blatant bug in an open market.
So I'm the a-hole for spending money on something PWE designed, implemented and sold me? Are you insane or just not very experienced in how a vendor relationship works? How do you expect the customer to assume that it's a blatant bug if it's sold in that form, I just don't understand your one sided logic - your logic is self defeating towards the customer that already has NO rights as the consumer under the TOS.
I have to consider your statements almost troll like in retrospect because of how outlandish they are.
Actually PWE and Cryptic are on the hook for the full liability in this situation. It's not as though people were told this wasn't the way it was supposed to work, (at any point in the last YEAR) given any indication via official channels on the launcher or information website that indicated that these devices weren't being used properly and to expect a change. In fact (the F word) NOTHING was done, nothing was said and nothing was even hinted at as far as there being an issue.
TOS.
18c:
(c) PWE has the right at any time with or without reason to change and/or eliminate any aspect(s) of the Services as it sees fit in its sole discretion.
22a:
THE SERVICE, THE GAMES, THE WEBSITE AND ALL MATERIALS CONTAINED THEREIN ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
They're liable for nothing, because the service is as is, and they have the right via the tos to change the game in any way they feel necessary.
So.. when I said LIABILITY, I mean on the part of PWE and Cryptic. Just saying "oh well" and discounting the folks that weren't breaking any rules, they weren't exploiting or abusing.. they were simply using devices as they were INTENDED to be used (sorry, but silence isn't golden, it's legally called compliance). So punishing them by taking away the use of those devices doesn't make a lick of sense.
Quoting legalese (sketchy legalese at that, because the TOS honestly buries this argument) to argue a game content update seems a bit pointless.
There HAS to be some compromise.
like an unbind.
Just rolling out a patch that "fixes" something that NOBODY said was broken isn't going to fit the bill. Not at all.
Cryptic and PWE are infamous for non-communication. So, let me go ahead and suggest this get a front page spot on the launcher AND the News section of the webpage, if not a message the first time people log in that are going to be affected by this.
I think we've found the one thing in this issue I agree with you on.
As far as what to come up with.. I've given you a couple suggestions, I'm sure other people can come up with some too. But the bottom line you have to remember: These are costumers that are being told, in some cases, that the last YEAR of saving and farming was for nothing and the items they purchased are being taken away.
No, they're not. You still have them, and can feel free to equip em on alts. Or sell them for a metric ton, trade them for other rare devices, etc.
If you don't go into it with that point of view.. this WILL blow up in your face. And the naysayers will do what they do best.. be shortsighted. But there's no arguing the obvious. And that's what my posts are... simply the obvious put into words.
So, how much of the community do you think honestly has 5 eruptions or 5 teliosaur pheremones? Because I only know like 3 people that even have more than one of em.
would really think long and hard about how to compensate them and make it something spectacular that ONLY they can have access to perhaps. Like a vendor that will exchange their bound devices (of specific types) for questionite (varying amounts based on the market value of the devices), zen, other devices (specifically ones unique to this apologetic fix from Cryptic for not taking action sooner) like vehicles, mark 3 weapons, etc.
That might sound like overkill, but when you have folks that have literally (and I know, I sold those devices to most of them) saved for months to buy two devices.. then they lose the use of one for NO REASON except laziness, poor coding, lack of attention to detail, poor QC, ineffective testing, questionable motives and, to top it all off, a 'fix' that comes in the midst of a virtual SWAMP of issues that have been around before the devices were even introduced... much older issues that really need to be fixed, but for some odd reason... this takes precedence.
Because it's balance breaking. I've been on dustups and in alerts with people who have 5 pheremones. The boss dies in like 15 seconds, and the amount of lag generated from all of those dinosaurs is friggin absurd. You might not see a balance issue with em, but you also probably have em all. It's hard to see how game breaking a behavior is when you're one of the ones taking advantage of the broken game.
Do I think this should have been addressed a long time ago? Absolutely. Should it be left the same because it wasn't? Hell no, by that logic we should never get another patch or bug fix, because people have gotten used to the bugs. Games change man, this is not a static environment.
Sorry, I've been an avid supporter for a LONG time.. look up some of my posts from years-past. I was the one saying.. stay positive, stay optimistic.. don't say negative things in the forums.. people will read it and leave.
And yet here we are.. about to roll out a patch that is questionable, at best.. could be called lazy fixes that couldn't result in anything other than a negative impact on the game (at best). I'd say I'm joining the other team until you guys can pull your heads out.
So basically, don't be negative when it's an issue that doesn't impact me, but now that it does I'm gonna go ahead and do what I told you not to? Of course every problem is minor until it affects you. And this does affect me, and a few friends. I've got a full lineup of a few of the less rare legacy devices that I use for random crowd control effects and such. I won't be able to use em anymore. You know what? I'll cope. Because in the end, this is better for the game.
You say this will drive away players. I say I've seen dozens of players quit because of pheremone lag or people steamrolling content with multiple versions of a device. It's no fun running with people who do that, you don't actually get to do a damn thing. And it's one thing if you have a brutal build that can solo anything and dps it down quickly. It's another when you don't even need to have an energy builder and can do it.
I don't want this to come off as negative to you personally, I've always gotten along with you so I hope this doesn't seem to much like an attack, and if it does I'm sorry in advance and I don't mean it to. However, I can't disagree with you on this one subject more.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
So I'm the a-hole for spending money on something PWE designed, implemented and sold me? Are you insane or just not very experienced in how a vendor relationship works? How do you expect the customer to assume that it's a blatant bug if it's sold in that form, I just don't understand your one sided logic - your logic is self defeating towards the customer that already has NO rights as the consumer under the TOS.
I have to consider your statements almost troll like in retrospect because of how outlandish they are.
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When it is something that is well documented and was sold to you indirectly via a gamble box from a legacy vender or from an Auction House that is controlled by players, Yeah, you can call yourself an a-hole, since those are your words.
They are fixing something that is game breaking, all not even loosing the items, they are just going to be unbound. Your upset that your losing you unfair advantage, whine all you want , but in the end its simply tough luck.
The Devs have made up their minds, and they will not change them. They have made changes tot he game that cost me money as well, but that is why they have a TOS, it is in their right to change or fix something they see as a problem. It is THEIR game, not ours.
When it is something that is well documented and was sold to you indirectly via a gamble box from a legacy vender or from an Auction House that is controlled by players, Yeah, you can call yourself an a-hole, since those are your words.
They are fixing something that is game breaking, all not even loosing the items, they are just going to be unbound. Your upset that your losing you unfair advantage, whine all you want , but in the end its simply tough luck.
The Devs have made up their minds, and they will not change them. They have made changes tot he game that cost me money as well, but that is why they have a TOS, it is in their right to change or fix something they see as a problem. It is THEIR game, not ours.
Whatever.... Go ahead and defend your perspective on the basis of fixing something unbalanced in this game, If you think that's what my argument is about it's pointless even speaking to you about it.
So do be clear, it was PWE that created the situation and profited from it for an entire year. And only AFTER the profits hit their peak are they now taking action. If you honestly think that's acceptable at the customers expense and not with PWE, then there is no reason to listen to your opinion at all.
Whatever.... Go ahead and defend your perspective on the basis of fixing something unbalanced in this game, If you think that's what my argument is about it's pointless even speaking to you about it.
So do be clear, it was PWE that created the situation and profited from it for an entire year. And only AFTER the profits hit their peak are they now taking action. If you honestly think that's acceptable at the customers expense and not with PWE, then there is no reason to listen to your opinion at all.
-Xeno
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I think your just butt hurt you no longer have access to broken items, and want to blame PWE for it. Considering they are no the ones who made said items, nor are they the ones who sold the items directly. Since they are in fact not sold directly to any one and are a random drop froma vender.
If they were sold out of say the Z-Store, then I would agree that more needs to be done on their end, but they were not.
Only after the community pointed out the risks of betraying the customer, vendor relationship at the cost of future revenue from new lock boxes.
Had we all adopted some of the other peoples opinions and taken the advice from people likee blademaster and sanguineviper, we be buying Vaseline stock instead of lock boxes.
.
Completely agreed with xeno here. I also agree that this company's plan is not non existant, but rather aiming to become a pocket squizer.
Again, xeno put it right, we have become so stupidly blind here.
We are seeing content promises behind lockboxes and feel happy about it. When they take that content away, with only promises of a "fix" (because now, CO's market will be full of those devices, and if u are fast enough u might sell your most valuable device, which costed you 20$ or 2000g to acquire , for 200g~2$.
Was the company unaware of it? No. Has anyone, ANYONE seen any real change to the game since "cryptic north" ( I bet you, this should be just a computer and a chair in the northern part of PWE's hut) took over ? Releasing useless powers with the aid of a dev who is responsible for killing most enjoyable and funny aspects of the game.
The device nerf was needed, but not in this way. If it is released before the great technicians called devs are able to do basic stuff like unbinding the devices, then I can't see how to trust them again.
Expect key price to reach 50g in a week, devices 10g and retcons un obtainable through any means of game farming.Unless you can sit there patiently and farm 100 destroids in resistance. This game's economy will soon be dead.
People, get a grip on yourselves! We are witnessing a company abusing a great game to squize our pockets. Don't act like you have the Stockholm syndrome.
I think your just butt hurt you no longer have access to broken items, and want to blame PWE for it. Considering they are no the ones who made said items, nor are they the ones who sold the items directly. Since they are in fact not sold directly to any one and are a random drop froma vender.
If they were sold out of say the Z-Store, then I would agree that more needs to be done on their end, but they were not.
Again you keep insisting my position that I'm "butt hurt" over not having access to broken mechanics, what are you 12 years old? My argument is that PWE is ripping their customers off on purpose. All you can do is regurgitate this weak position that it's OK for a developer to implement the very imbalances, profit from them and only after said profits have been completely gleamed from the customer, take responsibility for the damage they caused at the customers expense yet again. Are you a total moron to support that? Yes you are.
I think your just butt hurt you no longer have access to broken items, and want to blame PWE for it.
Again you keep insisting my position that I'm "butt hurt" over not having access to broken mechanics, what are you 12 years old? My argument is that PWE is ripping their customers off on purpose. All you can do is regurgitate this weak position that it's OK for a developer to implement the very imbalances, profit from them and only after said profits have been completely gleamed from the customer, take responsibility for the damage they caused at the customers expense yet again. Are you a total moron to support that? Yes you are.
Meh, I see both perspectives from where I sit (assuming I understand those perspectives well enough).
Yes, you and MANY "hardcore" PvP-ers in this game have grown accustomed to needing to have certain devices to play competitively. It makes total sense too from a competitive aspect. Why nerf yourself?
The problem I see is not that they are finally balancing things out and blocking usage of say... 5 Eruptions to gain invincibility... but that they took SOOOOO long in fixing it!
The profits they gleamed were in subtly tricking people into thinking this would last. I learn the last two times around with Blood Moon devices (5 Nimbuses for example) and later Backup Devices that is was NOT a good idea for me to invest THOUSANDS of gold/globals (especially when the best way for me to get that was to buy keys)
So yeah, I do see you as being a bit butt-hurt over this, and why shouldn't you be? You should be. You spent a lot to re-equip yourself after being gone. Saw you selling keys en masse myself. You were definitely mislead by Cryptic, again.
Now, that said...
It's STILL the right decision to change it. Too many issues in balance in BOTH PvP and PvE were being caused by this. Same thing with Imbue as you might recall.
And the real issue? Should have been changed LOOOONG ago, not just now. That's what, if anything, you should be getting angry at. Not the other players.
But hey, can't change the past right? So unless you want to go and yell at who was in-charge then for those mistakes (as you did once before and got banned for it), it's probably just time to move on.
They fixing it, adapt. *shrug* That's my attitude on this (along with frankly a strong "I freaking told you so!" to all those who said I was wrong that they'd never change it)
That's always happens in top tier PvP anyways. Adaptation. Some new power comes out that's that much better? RetCon time. You know the drill Xeno, you've been here long enough. Are you really suprised? I mean come on, it's what Cryptic does dude... They're always pulling stunts like this. And yeah, I don't like the inconsistency and constantly changing business directions anymore than you do I'd imagine. I've lost plenty of hard-earned wealth thinking these would be the "last upgrades I'd need", and it never was.
Again you keep insisting my position that I'm "butt hurt" over not having access to broken mechanics, what are you 12 years old? My argument is that PWE is ripping their customers off on purpose. All you can do is regurgitate this weak position that it's OK for a developer to implement the very imbalances, profit from them and only after said profits have been completely gleamed from the customer, take responsibility for the damage they caused at the customers expense yet again. Are you a total moron to support that? Yes you are.
I said "butt hurt" once, if that is the translation of what you got from the other posts of mine, then it would seem it is even more true.
and calling me 12? Who was the one who started with personal attacks, oh right it was you. If anyone is a child it is you.
Also, after profits have been completely gleamed? Last I checked people are still buying those BS lockboxes, or are you in the mind that PWE specifically watch your transactions waiting for you to get all of the items THEN because you have them all, they will now fix them. Man you are full of yourself.
On a different note, if anyone should be compensated, it should be those people who were slaughtered in PVP due the exploiters of these devices that are being fixed.
Comments
Just tell me it's going to be as good as NW's version so it's not super amazingly obvious that Cryptic loves them way more than us. This is our FOURTH anniversary after all. Oh and thanks for stopping by TT. IMO, you're doing what others should be doing but I have no issue giving you the thanks for stepping up to their bar.
Also, let's be clear about something Zero mentioned pages ago and ellaborate on it.
Once upon a time we had Click Upgrades. One dev removed them(with alot of other stuff). Later the same Dev changed one of them(Pheremones pet level) and then copy/pasted them all into devices. The break in standards was seen immediately and many conversations both on and off of the forums happened. Then NEVERWINTER happened(See: "New" Telepathy timegap). The problem with Legacy devices never got addressed because there was nobody here to address it. Team Lordgar was up to his gills making mini-Mega-Events with/without/WhoTheHellKnows Cryptic North. The person who converted the Legacy Devices was on NW since the game was behind schedule and neck deep in exploits.
People call the Legacy Devices Exlpoits...For the most part this is not true. There are some cases where the game content has reacted in exploit-like ways to content and I'm sure a few people took advantage but, overall, the main issue with the Legacy Devices was something that used to be unique not having the effects of being made non-unique being considered at all, despite having the PTS testers and other people say so multiple times. IMO, this is a case of the PTS process failing....and it's not even remotely the 1st time or last time.
People want to further the playerbase divide by saying this is a "PvP Only Issue" and not a "Overall Balance Issue." IMO, this is just a way to enrage PvEers against those foul dirty PvPers who were too stubborn to quit when a dev tried to kill their entire aspect of the game with On Alert. How dare they. No, this is an overall balance issue and anyone who played when the Click Upgrades existed should have seen the writing on the wall. I know multiple people, myself included, who have like 5 NPGs.....unbound....because I was afraid to use them all since myself and some others kinda knew this was coming all along(more accurately hoped it was coming).
As for the "Economic Impact" angle. You're saying that if the unbind happens that people will be able to sell spares, prices will go down, and those who are not members of the various paths to the "Ultra-Rich crowd" will be able to obtain one? Ok, I'm cool with that. Just like a real economy prices fluxuate with up and down turns in the overall market. Look on the bright side, if they hadn't gone with the unbind(which hasn't happened yet so don't get over-expecting since there's a difference between "working on" and "made it happen") then you would have made nothing and completely eaten the loss. In this case you might get the chance to recoup some of your loss while I finally pick up the Pheremones I've killed a certain dino THOUSANDS of times to not get for a pet toon I've had since 2009 who just wanted 5 dinos in total(command animals) vs. 17 dinos. Congratulations, we win.
Also, not naming names, but I see people in here tossing around the dreaded forum "F" Word(facts). I ask that if you feel compelled to use this particular word that you, please, have some to go with the use of that word. It is almost never the correct case that it's a "Fact" that one person's opinions on the forums are to have the ability to mindread the entire community.
Ok, now can we please get back to the actual testing and using this thread for what it's supposed to be about before TT has to come in here and split the entire thing into two parts?
P.S. cptcooltastic: Elder Worm Humidity Dome. This should get you the look you're after for the most part. :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
1. Device overuse is bad unless it's my multiple pheremones.
2. PvPers ruined the game...but they didn't because other people use devices too but you bolded up the PvPer bit?
3. Nerfing stuff you like is bad and bringing about the DOOM of this game but could you please nerf Ebon Ruin to dust because it's evil and nobody uses it except those vile PvPers?
4. Paragraphs are hard but bricks of text are awesome!
That about cover it? :rolleyes:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
So, we get the Infinite Balls and Stuff at 5th Anniversary.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
I'm amazed you actually read through that O_o.
Actually PWE and Cryptic are on the hook for the full liability in this situation. It's not as though people were told this wasn't the way it was supposed to work, (at any point in the last YEAR) given any indication via official channels on the launcher or information website that indicated that these devices weren't being used properly and to expect a change. In fact (the F word) NOTHING was done, nothing was said and nothing was even hinted at as far as there being an issue.
Having said that now, for about the THIRD time in a post in this very thread.. let me now explain.. AGAIN.. why this has an impact on the person.
If they weren't told this was wrong or that there was an issue, then they aren't liable in this situation. Cryptic and PWE are. They allowed what they are now calling (paraphrasing) "things that were not working as intended" to go on for over a year. And, I have to say, it's odd that it would go on for that long unless we look at the motivation for this to happen. Gosh, people were buying FIVE TIMES (at minimum) as many devices.. requiring FIVE TIMES as many keys (at minimum) giving FIVE TIMES the revenue. Oh.. now it's pretty obvious what was going on.
So.. when I said LIABILITY, I mean on the part of PWE and Cryptic. Just saying "oh well" and discounting the folks that weren't breaking any rules, they weren't exploiting or abusing.. they were simply using devices as they were INTENDED to be used (sorry, but silence isn't golden, it's legally called compliance). So punishing them by taking away the use of those devices doesn't make a lick of sense.
There HAS to be some compromise. In fact, there shouldn't even be any loss on their part. Cryptic needs to come up with something that blows their socks off and makes them feel they are still getting a decent deal even though they are out tons of farming/zen and, of course, the devices themselves.
Just rolling out a patch that "fixes" something that NOBODY said was broken isn't going to fit the bill. Not at all.
Cryptic and PWE are infamous for non-communication. So, let me go ahead and suggest this get a front page spot on the launcher AND the News section of the webpage, if not a message the first time people log in that are going to be affected by this. This is, of course, if you want to keep those people as customers.
As far as what to come up with.. I've given you a couple suggestions, I'm sure other people can come up with some too. But the bottom line you have to remember: These are costumers that are being told, in some cases, that the last YEAR of saving and farming was for nothing and the items they purchased are being taken away.
If you don't go into it with that point of view.. this WILL blow up in your face. And the naysayers will do what they do best.. be shortsighted. But there's no arguing the obvious. And that's what my posts are... simply the obvious put into words.
I would really think long and hard about how to compensate them and make it something spectacular that ONLY they can have access to perhaps. Like a vendor that will exchange their bound devices (of specific types) for questionite (varying amounts based on the market value of the devices), zen, other devices (specifically ones unique to this apologetic fix from Cryptic for not taking action sooner) like vehicles, mark 3 weapons, etc.
That might sound like overkill, but when you have folks that have literally (and I know, I sold those devices to most of them) saved for months to buy two devices.. then they lose the use of one for NO REASON except laziness, poor coding, lack of attention to detail, poor QC, ineffective testing, questionable motives and, to top it all off, a 'fix' that comes in the midst of a virtual SWAMP of issues that have been around before the devices were even introduced... much older issues that really need to be fixed, but for some odd reason... this takes precedence.
Sorry, I've been an avid supporter for a LONG time.. look up some of my posts from years-past. I was the one saying.. stay positive, stay optimistic.. don't say negative things in the forums.. people will read it and leave.
And yet here we are.. about to roll out a patch that is questionable, at best.. could be called lazy fixes that couldn't result in anything other than a negative impact on the game (at best). I'd say I'm joining the other team until you guys can pull your heads out.
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LoL, I actually thought of this thing as I was typing that last bit about the Hologram. I had me one of them Humidity Dome's back when it was still a mission reward out in MI. The thing is fantastic for a ghost/phantom concept. Especially with that eye glow.
I had just tossed the Hologram Device idea out there as a fun tid bit they might want to consider, I have no actual plans for such a thing myself. But the hologram tech is pretty cool, might be amusing to use it with a Super Magnifier and join the rest of the Champions in the HQ.
Main thing was getting Sapph's clothes! With or without her in them.
*watches as Cryptic turn up the dial on the Maximum Strength Psychic Dampener Devices (StrongholdTM) on Mentella*
Mentella: (<_<") Great, now this will be even harder...
Me: Sowwy
:biggrin:
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__________________________
Sorry 'bout that, folks. Might've went overboard with those comments.
I still say people are blowing this whole patch out of proportion. I understand that they may have dropped a lot of time and money into getting these devices, but they should've seen this sort of stuff coming, considering all the complaints that were popping up involving them.
I only have this to say, if the unbind happens and I have to buy it you will never see me log in again. Same if an unbind doesn't happen. I spent a fortune on the devices I have. Much of it was real money. And I question the legality of it, much less the ethical aspect...
I know I will get the usual response of "see ya, just go away". Well that kind of ignorant attitude is why the player base has eroded to where it currently is... So when everyone has "gone away" and they shut off the servers I hope you are content with that attitude.
I am sorry for the bitter tone people, it's just hard to not be bitter after all of this. It isn't just this one issue. It is the long string of issues. The on alert changes, losing all of my crafting recipes that I paid big in game money for. Losing my crafted travel power device. It just ever seems to end and it is getting ridiculous.
Ps. I was not using my devices to unbalance pvp or anything. I don't even pvp since on alert came out and acclaim became useless and I get no ego fix from pvp.
I know I said I was done, but to me this hits at home. So this will be my last comment:
Tach is one of the most impressive builders I have ever seen. He does not need to use devices at all, and makes builds sans devices that would crush practically anyone. I do not make this claim lightly. He is that good.
He is also one of the most reasonable and generous customers/players i have had the pleasure of meeting here, and I am proud to call him my friend. If Tach ever saw you in genuine need, he would (literally in some cases in PvE) move heaven and earth to assist you. Like a hero would. If one was down on their luck Tach was/is always there to help.
Cryptic, this is the type of customer you want to keep, not alienate. He has accepted many of your mistakes that have cost him and us the playerbase big time. He is still willing to play. Read his words carefully, and please, do not turn the implied official response of some method of unbinding into vaporware.
So, don't be surprised at people balking when, after a fourth of the game's existence passes by, Cryptic finally takes an interest in cleaning up the mess that didn't have to happen in the first place. It's like not parenting your child for a good portion of their development and then being surprised when the resulting teenager turns out not to have raised themselves to be an upstanding citizen.
Also, WHAT NEW CONTENT? Alerts are not content, or an adequate content substitute and you don't create TWO missions and then rest on your laurels and brag that you've added content to the game.
Furthermore, don't take this as an argument against the devices changes - I'm not here to argue that, but... who honestly, truly, actually cares about "hurting existing content" when said content hasn't changed in years, or in a lot of cases, since launch? There are powers that were released less than a couple of weeks ago that probably demolish existing content. I can trivialize an Alert with powers that have been around since launch.
I could go on about the fact that Alerts themselves "hurt" existing content by encouraging new players to use them to gain experience and level up instead of doing said content, thereby enabling if not flat out encouraging the bypassing of entire sections of the game, but I think you get the point.
I know you're not personally responsible for any of the development aspect of this game, but with all due respect, stop insulting our intelligence.
I think people in possesion of extra t pheremones should get an inborn tenacity as a replacement. If people complain, then the hypocrisy is highlighted.
Well, it's better this way tho
Shag, no comment, don't act childish.
http://postimg.org/image/cu8rhphbj/full/
will miss you devices :'-(
I hope it's the former.
PS: Bacon, your sig makes you look like a giant idiot. It's like you invented a punctuation mark (your sig) that invalidates everything you ever post in your essay long posts.
Snark never dies.
I don't PvP because of the device war it has become, maybe this change will make PvP that much more bearable?
The hardest hit will be my pet master (she has 3 pheromones, I got them all from boxes), but in actual fact as long as I have one pheromone I don't need the others out, as soon as I heard this news I started playing with just one active, still works fine, not as many dinos granted but as a pet master, IMO, that is what you want to be a -master- over your pets, not have them running around in giant uncontrollable packs (even though it does look funny!
Best thing to do is to just get used to running with one instead of multiple devices..
I had no idea things like Eruption and NPG could actually stack before I saw them in PvP.
I really (when I think about it) should have expected this change/fix. Why? Remember what happened with Team Energy Surge? Some people actually built around it and didn't bother with energy management or anything and when it got changed they were affected. Same thing is happening again.
Moral of the story? Don't build around devices.
That's my personal take on things...
NOTE: I spent a sizeable amount of RL money on these devices via Keys and Lockboxes, So yes, I am upset that this has happened but I'll have to deal with it. I do hope we get compensation via this unbind mechanic that was spoken about earlier. It sure would help.
My Characters on PRIMUS
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__________________________
P.S. I was also affected by the Hawkwing prototype nerf, and helped lead the effort to get those changes rolled back, but this situation is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. The fact that this is finally being fixed is actually strengthening my confidence in the game (with the obligatory I've also been around since beta and spend lots of money..blah blah)
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Cryptic has to compensate device-owners for the sake of the community at large. If small, but vocal, chunk of players rages for a week or so in-game before leaving, it will cause others to quit or not stay if they just joined.
The Devs also have to provide compensation for their own integrity, reputation, and trust. Recently, there has been much more Dev work, including actually listening to player input. If the device change does not compensate owners in a reasonable way, the Devs will squander what goodwill they have built up in the past 6 months.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
If an unbinding token is not offered you as the community can stop making any and all threads that have anything to do with making the game better and just drop the entire illusion that our role is not to be taken to the cleaners as many times as possible. PWE can at least do the bear minimum to keep the illusion alive and gleam more revenue in the future. If not, you may want to take a second to think before giving your money to PWE on future purchases.
-Xeno
'
'
If you can do that, I think it's perfectly reasonable. And with only one Eruption in my device bar, I won't have to feel guilty about using it (in PvE at least, it's still a bit dodgy in duels IMHO).
The poster formerly known as Lightwave!
I wouldn't consider them completely different. In both situations, players paid real money to acquire devices that were changed dramatically.
I myself spent no "real" money in my acquisition of my prototypes, but I spent "real" time earning resources to acquire them from other people for ones I didn't earn in the grab bag itself. I consider an investment of time to be significantly valuable, as a game world revolves around players investing their time one way or another.
As far as the jets go, I could accept the speed nerf since it was affecting server stability. But would have I invested the time and effort to acquire jets if they were released in their current state? Not at all. This can be seen in the general lack of interest people have in vehicles and vehicle mods. My jets serve little purpose other than an extra travel power or a trophy to sit in a vault.
As far as devices go, I only came back recently so I didn't have the resources (well wasn't willing to spend/sell) to acquire said devices in multiples. But I also know it wasn't uncommon for people to spend real money to acquire them. For them to make said investments and not be compensated is hardly different from the jets to me.
Hell, I left shortly after the jets were nerfed and I was actually partially compensated. A change needed to occur, but in reality the problem should have never been allowed to grow to its proportion in the first place. Those players who invested deserve recompense otherwise it's just going to lead to more people walking out.
It's hard enough for me to sell stuff to the shrinking community base, and I'm no where near Bacon's level.
I believe that YOU feel it's the customers fault for spending $500 dollars on something and it's OK for the vendor to come and take it back without offering compensation.
-Xeno
'
In the end, it is the customer's fault. We've been customers here for 4 years now, we know how the business works in this game. If you're stupid enough to pay into the system you know will rip you off then you deserve it.
Protip: No one should ever have spent a penny on lockboxes. If those of you that did hadn't bought them, they would've been scrapped from development plans for the future. And we wouldn't have this situation at all, because those devices could've been tested before going live.
They weren't though, because they required piles of cosmic keys to get a hold of and were only on PTS for a week, where oddly enough the Zstore has been disabled since PWE took over. It's almost as though they didn't want people to find out how completely they were being ripped off buying keys for bull**** lockboxes... Go figure!
TL;DR: The ones who pay for the bull**** are the ones who are going to receive it. Therefore it is in fact, their fault. Either you deal with it, or you cry like a petulant child in 15,000 word long posts on the forums that no one will read.
And there's a lot of crying over something that they've now said they're working on giving compensation for. But honestly, good luck getting rid of those devices now that everyone who wants them likely already has five times as many as they can even use.
Snark never dies.
You know what squanders goodwill? Putting the first full costume set in over a year, behind a damn lockbox, that's what.
So, using your logic, should I also assume since PWE is a Chinese based company the goal here is to sell me on fake perfume and purses and I should of understood that before walking into the store? I feel that perspective deserve to get victimized if the merchant markets the items directly to you and all you will do is blame yourself, why not?
Also most of your assumptions based upon a long term player base is simply just not true. The majority of the player base is new people, every 3 to 4 months. On-Alert began the theme park MMO business model. You come for awhile, drop some coin and move on, hence why we have lock boxes in the first place. It's a business model to extract the maximum value of a game on the shortest time line. After a few months you offer new content at a cost, the cycle then repeats itself. Only a small percentage of players actually stay. So how do you expect new players to know they are going to get ripped off without having any previous experience being ripped off? As a long term player I feel you should be standing up for yourself and not publishing propaganda that supports the victimization of yourself or this community. In short, grow some balls man.
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Tecnically both you and sanguineviper are correct. if we do buy them then they think we like them. So if we do not buy the lockboxes then we can try to show them we do not appriciate them.
i bought past lockboxes because I use the mods that drop and fuse them, but now that they put the first FULL costume set in a year behind it (yeah I will continue to beat that horse) I will not purchase this Lockbox or spend another dime her until we start getting Costume sets in the C-Store again.
So for now, I am done spending money here, another game can get my business.
You've always been reasonable and I respect your opinion, but here are the differences between this and the prototype situation as I see it:
1.) The prototypes were sold directly by Cryptic. Most of the legacy device transactions that people are complaining they spent so much time/money on were private player transactions. It's not Cryptic's fault someone decided to pay another player 20000G for a temporary "I Win" button.
2.) The prototype jets were fundamentally and drastically nerfed from their original functionality. The legacy devices are not significantly changing here; they are just fixing a bug that allowed people to stack them. People that used them as they were intended (not stacking) are not being affected at all.
3.) Stacking the items was obviously causing major balance issues in both PvE and PvP. I don't believe this was the case with the prototypes.
4.) TrailTurtle has already said some method of unbind will be offered; a huge departure from previous fixes. When we campaigned for satisfaction with regard to the prototypes, we (at least I) just asked for a reversal of the Zen transactions. If players were to ask to return a pair of the legacy devices for 40 Drifter Salvage, I think that is comparable and completely fair.
"Without data, you're just another person with an opinion." -- W. Edwards Deming
Only after the community pointed out the risks of betraying the customer, vendor relationship at the cost of future revenue from new lock boxes.
Had we all adopted some of the other peoples opinions and taken the advice from people like blademaster and sanguineviper, we be buying Vaseline stock instead of lock boxes.
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The jets caused what they perceived to be pve problems, which in turn led them to nerf them to uselessness.
Some devices are seeing major change. Psionic's sole value was its ability to deny even ascension with its -100 flight. Now it simply becomes omicron in an even weaker state with a long cd.
You couldn't stack jets, in the device sense.
Device stacking was allowed to flourish till they realized it caused enough of an issue to negate the money it was generating. Stacking devices meant more money spent, otherwise they would have shut it down months ago if not prevented the problem outright.
In both cases, people invested time/effort/money to acquire these items only for them too lose major value down the line. When people see this pattern repeat itself, they are far less inclined to spend money if not leave outright. That is bad for all of us in an already shrinking community.
I stopped spending my own money on the game a while back and have relied on trading in game resources. I also left for several months, and may very well end up going again with the market almost completely dictated by the boxes.
I as a consumer have little faith in the product and even as a free 2 play there's not a whole lot holding my interest at the moment. This is probably going to be the first taste of what the CoX refugees get of CO customer service. It may be their last too.
They are simply not allowing them to be stacked and ABUSED! Also, it was game breaking.
In order to implement other things, such as fixes and content and other changes mentioned by TT... This had to happen.
The only problem i see, is getting proper compensation for the devices that YOU bought more than 1 of. Money is Money, and people should get something back for spending that kind of coin. But, i also think the buyer should take some responsibility for the selfish and gluttonous way this came about. I mean, you know when you're abusing the system... c'mon.
5 Eruptions? As many Dinos as Jurassic park? Karma is a beetch, but i love her sometimes.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Proper compensation? that fact that people will be getting something to unbind them should be enough. It is not Cryptic's fault players took advantage of a blatant bug in an open market.
So I'm the a-hole for spending money on something PWE designed, implemented and sold me? Are you insane or just not very experienced in how a vendor relationship works? How do you expect the customer to assume that it's a blatant bug if it's sold in that form, I just don't understand your one sided logic - your logic is self defeating towards the customer that already has NO rights as the consumer under the TOS.
I have to consider your statements almost troll like in retrospect because of how outlandish they are.
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TOS.
18c:
(c) PWE has the right at any time with or without reason to change and/or eliminate any aspect(s) of the Services as it sees fit in its sole discretion.
22a:
THE SERVICE, THE GAMES, THE WEBSITE AND ALL MATERIALS CONTAINED THEREIN ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED.
They're liable for nothing, because the service is as is, and they have the right via the tos to change the game in any way they feel necessary.
Quoting legalese (sketchy legalese at that, because the TOS honestly buries this argument) to argue a game content update seems a bit pointless.
like an unbind.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=190531
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=214471
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=232791
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=204071
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=240251
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=239231
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=207541
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=117816
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=237181
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=198111
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=228001
I can keep going if you want.
I think we've found the one thing in this issue I agree with you on.
No, they're not. You still have them, and can feel free to equip em on alts. Or sell them for a metric ton, trade them for other rare devices, etc.
So, how much of the community do you think honestly has 5 eruptions or 5 teliosaur pheremones? Because I only know like 3 people that even have more than one of em.
Because it's balance breaking. I've been on dustups and in alerts with people who have 5 pheremones. The boss dies in like 15 seconds, and the amount of lag generated from all of those dinosaurs is friggin absurd. You might not see a balance issue with em, but you also probably have em all. It's hard to see how game breaking a behavior is when you're one of the ones taking advantage of the broken game.
Do I think this should have been addressed a long time ago? Absolutely. Should it be left the same because it wasn't? Hell no, by that logic we should never get another patch or bug fix, because people have gotten used to the bugs. Games change man, this is not a static environment.
So basically, don't be negative when it's an issue that doesn't impact me, but now that it does I'm gonna go ahead and do what I told you not to? Of course every problem is minor until it affects you. And this does affect me, and a few friends. I've got a full lineup of a few of the less rare legacy devices that I use for random crowd control effects and such. I won't be able to use em anymore. You know what? I'll cope. Because in the end, this is better for the game.
You say this will drive away players. I say I've seen dozens of players quit because of pheremone lag or people steamrolling content with multiple versions of a device. It's no fun running with people who do that, you don't actually get to do a damn thing. And it's one thing if you have a brutal build that can solo anything and dps it down quickly. It's another when you don't even need to have an energy builder and can do it.
I don't want this to come off as negative to you personally, I've always gotten along with you so I hope this doesn't seem to much like an attack, and if it does I'm sorry in advance and I don't mean it to. However, I can't disagree with you on this one subject more.
RIP Caine
When it is something that is well documented and was sold to you indirectly via a gamble box from a legacy vender or from an Auction House that is controlled by players, Yeah, you can call yourself an a-hole, since those are your words.
They are fixing something that is game breaking, all not even loosing the items, they are just going to be unbound. Your upset that your losing you unfair advantage, whine all you want , but in the end its simply tough luck.
The Devs have made up their minds, and they will not change them. They have made changes tot he game that cost me money as well, but that is why they have a TOS, it is in their right to change or fix something they see as a problem. It is THEIR game, not ours.
Whatever.... Go ahead and defend your perspective on the basis of fixing something unbalanced in this game, If you think that's what my argument is about it's pointless even speaking to you about it.
So do be clear, it was PWE that created the situation and profited from it for an entire year. And only AFTER the profits hit their peak are they now taking action. If you honestly think that's acceptable at the customers expense and not with PWE, then there is no reason to listen to your opinion at all.
-Xeno
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I think your just butt hurt you no longer have access to broken items, and want to blame PWE for it. Considering they are no the ones who made said items, nor are they the ones who sold the items directly. Since they are in fact not sold directly to any one and are a random drop froma vender.
If they were sold out of say the Z-Store, then I would agree that more needs to be done on their end, but they were not.
It was hard for me to move in the PTS.
All of the tears kept washing me away.
Naw, didn't notice anything here. Just destroids running around.
Deliciously nutritious!
Completely agreed with xeno here. I also agree that this company's plan is not non existant, but rather aiming to become a pocket squizer.
Again, xeno put it right, we have become so stupidly blind here.
We are seeing content promises behind lockboxes and feel happy about it. When they take that content away, with only promises of a "fix" (because now, CO's market will be full of those devices, and if u are fast enough u might sell your most valuable device, which costed you 20$ or 2000g to acquire , for 200g~2$.
Was the company unaware of it? No. Has anyone, ANYONE seen any real change to the game since "cryptic north" ( I bet you, this should be just a computer and a chair in the northern part of PWE's hut) took over ? Releasing useless powers with the aid of a dev who is responsible for killing most enjoyable and funny aspects of the game.
The device nerf was needed, but not in this way. If it is released before the great technicians called devs are able to do basic stuff like unbinding the devices, then I can't see how to trust them again.
Expect key price to reach 50g in a week, devices 10g and retcons un obtainable through any means of game farming.Unless you can sit there patiently and farm 100 destroids in resistance. This game's economy will soon be dead.
People, get a grip on yourselves! We are witnessing a company abusing a great game to squize our pockets. Don't act like you have the Stockholm syndrome.
Again you keep insisting my position that I'm "butt hurt" over not having access to broken mechanics, what are you 12 years old? My argument is that PWE is ripping their customers off on purpose. All you can do is regurgitate this weak position that it's OK for a developer to implement the very imbalances, profit from them and only after said profits have been completely gleamed from the customer, take responsibility for the damage they caused at the customers expense yet again. Are you a total moron to support that? Yes you are.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Meh, I see both perspectives from where I sit (assuming I understand those perspectives well enough).
Yes, you and MANY "hardcore" PvP-ers in this game have grown accustomed to needing to have certain devices to play competitively. It makes total sense too from a competitive aspect. Why nerf yourself?
The problem I see is not that they are finally balancing things out and blocking usage of say... 5 Eruptions to gain invincibility... but that they took SOOOOO long in fixing it!
The profits they gleamed were in subtly tricking people into thinking this would last. I learn the last two times around with Blood Moon devices (5 Nimbuses for example) and later Backup Devices that is was NOT a good idea for me to invest THOUSANDS of gold/globals (especially when the best way for me to get that was to buy keys)
So yeah, I do see you as being a bit butt-hurt over this, and why shouldn't you be? You should be. You spent a lot to re-equip yourself after being gone. Saw you selling keys en masse myself. You were definitely mislead by Cryptic, again.
Now, that said...
It's STILL the right decision to change it. Too many issues in balance in BOTH PvP and PvE were being caused by this. Same thing with Imbue as you might recall.
And the real issue? Should have been changed LOOOONG ago, not just now. That's what, if anything, you should be getting angry at. Not the other players.
But hey, can't change the past right? So unless you want to go and yell at who was in-charge then for those mistakes (as you did once before and got banned for it), it's probably just time to move on.
They fixing it, adapt. *shrug* That's my attitude on this (along with frankly a strong "I freaking told you so!" to all those who said I was wrong that they'd never change it)
That's always happens in top tier PvP anyways. Adaptation. Some new power comes out that's that much better? RetCon time. You know the drill Xeno, you've been here long enough. Are you really suprised? I mean come on, it's what Cryptic does dude... They're always pulling stunts like this. And yeah, I don't like the inconsistency and constantly changing business directions anymore than you do I'd imagine. I've lost plenty of hard-earned wealth thinking these would be the "last upgrades I'd need", and it never was.
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
I said "butt hurt" once, if that is the translation of what you got from the other posts of mine, then it would seem it is even more true.
and calling me 12? Who was the one who started with personal attacks, oh right it was you. If anyone is a child it is you.
Also, after profits have been completely gleamed? Last I checked people are still buying those BS lockboxes, or are you in the mind that PWE specifically watch your transactions waiting for you to get all of the items THEN because you have them all, they will now fix them. Man you are full of yourself.
On a different note, if anyone should be compensated, it should be those people who were slaughtered in PVP due the exploiters of these devices that are being fixed.