Interrupt is ONE type of debuff. But I think it has been deemed overpowered (outside of melee).
So INSTEAD of interrupts, what if Shadow of Doubt was a huge debuff to enemy damage output for a short time. (long enough to make a shtick attack do about less offensive damage. Scale the debuff with Hold Strength.. I may start calling this mechanic "debuff strength")
What if Mental Leech INSTEAD of interrupting did a enegy sap to the enemy removing their ability to cast the strong attacks (mostly for PvP i'd assume). Have the amount of energy taken scale with "Debuff Strength"
Give players the ability to rank up "Debuff Resistance" again with gear and statting. I still don't think EGO can be both ranged damage and debuff resistance in the same stat.. it's counter intuitive to game balance. Also Putting Debuff Resistance in the same stat that adds debuff strength is counter intuitive to game balance. The most logical place for this Debuff Resistance is in REC. Recovery is a utility stat that support characters will also use (Scales with Compassion). Debuff resistance should lower incoming Debuff Strength (Hold HP, Debuff Strength, Lockout times, etc).
- -
Devs are saying interrupts don't work.
I'm saying power lockouts don't work.
I'm just lolin' at the fact that Mind Break does seven times more damage than Reaper's Embrace with five bleeds and penetration debuffs does. #TelepathyWow.
Stacking bleeds is MUCH faster than telepathy buffs. And again the damage of Mind Break isn't so fantastic.. but fortunately the damage resistance debuff IS amazing.
When talking about Mind Break it's important that we be specific about what is wow and what is not.
The WOW is actually from Mental Storm (and Collective Will) lowering target's defense to Ego attacks.
Mind Break alone also is not wow. Its damage is really low for a T0 because it REQUIRES stacks of a (1-3) secondary power to achieve damage.
So you are not comparing apples to apples. There are 4 power points, 16+ advantage points and 60 seconds investment. Compared to 2 powers with 8 advantage points over about 13 seconds.
Bez, You do realize that all those debuffs that you're stacking on the target are multiplicative, right? As in, that -50% damage cuts the enemy damage output by 50% flat, and that -50% ego resistance, increases everyone hitting for ego damage by a real 50%, right?
When i first saw the whole stacking debuff thing with these new DoTs, i immediately realized just how pointless mind break was as a power. Anyone who actually uses mind break and wastes the MASSIVE debuffs you have stacked on the target for that spike damage is a moron.
So while you and raven keep saying you're "useless" for 40 seconds of lockout time, you most certainly are not, you're cutting the boss' damage in half, making them extremely vulnerable to ego damage, and making them heal your party members to boot...
...When i first saw the whole stacking debuff thing with these new DoTs, i immediately realized just how pointless mind break was as a power. Anyone who actually uses mind break and wastes the MASSIVE debuffs you have stacked on the target for that spike damage is a moron. ...
Yet one more reason I'd prefer a lower debuff cap. If you can build back to full debuffs quickly you won't feel like a moron burning them for extra dps.
...and when I say a debuff cap per player I mean the Telepathy debuffs would function similar to the debuff from Mini-gun. It caps at 3, but each player can stack 3 if they have the power + adv. Additionally, Mind Break would only pop the debuffs you applied.
On a side note, I hate when the quote feature refuses to quote the post I'm trying to quote.
So while you and raven keep saying you're "useless" for 40 seconds of lockout time, you most certainly are not, you're cutting the boss' damage in half, making them extremely vulnerable to ego damage, and making them heal your party members to boot...
I didn't say I was useless, I said my crowd control - the game mechanic that I've specc'd for - is useless.
Again, If I wanted a DoT DPS character I would have made one. All Crowd Control is useless in this new system of telepathy. It really is hard to get people to understand that there is more than DPS in Champions Online.
Defense Penetration is a great debuff. I have no issue with Mental Storm's mechanics (but hope for a charging animation and head emanation point.) But that is ONE debuff.
If interrupts are too great a defensive debuff then lets find some OTHER debuffs that aren't just about debuffing defenses of enemies. Specifically debuffing the enemy offenses and enemy utility (energy).
Interrupt is ONE type of debuff. But I think it has been deemed overpowered (outside of melee).
So INSTEAD of interrupts, what if Shadow of Doubt was a huge debuff to enemy damage output for a short time. (long enough to make a shtick attack do about less offensive damage. Scale the debuff with Hold Strength.. I may start calling this mechanic "debuff strength")
What if Mental Leech INSTEAD of interrupting did a enegy sap to the enemy removing their ability to cast the strong attacks (mostly for PvP i'd assume). Have the amount of energy taken scale with "Debuff Strength"
Give players the ability to rank up "Debuff Resistance" again with gear and statting. I still don't think EGO can be both ranged damage and debuff resistance in the same stat.. it's counter intuitive to game balance. Also Putting Debuff Resistance in the same stat that adds debuff strength is counter intuitive to game balance. The most logical place for this Debuff Resistance is in REC. Recovery is a utility stat that support characters will also use (Scales with Compassion). Debuff resistance should lower incoming Debuff Strength (Hold HP, Damage Mitigation, Defense Mitigation, Energy Taken, Time Equilibrium is set to 0, Lockout times, etc).
- -
Devs are saying interrupts don't work.
I'm saying power lockouts don't work.
I think lockout is an "okay" mechanic but does not belong here. Perhaps players would celebrate this being used in Celestial Cleansing's offensive form? Specifically since using the support form of the power removes the debuff that prevents using lockout again.
Again, If I wanted a DoT DPS character I would have made one. All Crowd Control is useless in this new system of telepathy. It really is hard to get people to understand that there is more than DPS in Champions Online.
I thought that GC said (back when this stuff first came to PTS) that this telepathy pass was just to make the framework not suck. I got the impression that he acknowledged that CC in general was a problem and would need its own pass beyond the telepathy pass.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
I thought that GC said (back when this stuff first came to PTS) that this telepathy pass was just to make the framework not suck. I got the impression that he acknowledged that CC in general was a problem and would need its own pass beyond the telepathy pass.
Perhaps, but Damage will (and should) always break hold strength. This is an obvious step in the wrong direction specifically for telepathy.
I think using the new DoT powers as offensive DoT is great.. For those who want to do this there is already Ego Form to buff their ranged damage.
Using the DoT powers as debuff powers is NOT great.. and this is the fulcrum of my dissatisfaction. Congress of selves does alot to make heal debuffs available.. but why would I EVER choose to use it in support role if I can use it in offensive role with the same effect?
There are 4 ego playstyles at play. Ranged Ego Damage, Melee Ego Damage, Buff Support, and Debuff Support. The first 3 of these work FINE now and very few people have cried #TelepathyNOW because they wanted to do more Ranged Ego Damage. Only the debuff support playstyle is left wanting.. why HAVE the telepathy pass if not to address those who are most in need?
Telepathy review?
Does that mean CO is finally getting some devs back?! :O
Does that mean we could eventually get some more actual content? :O
AND (on my wishlist) could we ever get SG hideouts like COH had?! :O
Telepathy review?
Does that mean CO is finally getting some devs back?! :O
Does that mean we could eventually get some more actual content? :O
AND (on my wishlist) could we ever get SG hideouts like COH had?! :O
No. Its just one dev putting more time into this game on the side of working on NWO.
Telepathy review?
Does that mean CO is finally getting some devs back?! :O
Does that mean we could eventually get some more actual content? :O
AND (on my wishlist) could we ever get SG hideouts like COH had?! :O
To be fair.. as of yet nothing is being reviewed.. only added. Which is why I am so adamant that these additions not conflict so directly with what telepathy currently has.
Good to see telepathy still being tweaked, mental leach heal would really be a lot more viable of it healed at the casters location instead of the target's location.
Actually, there is a specific benefit to having a heal come from the target's location and that's aiding melee teammates. Not only are there often (rather valid) comments made about melee roles, this also would give a different playstyle. Another way to use it is to help a ranged player who's drawn aggro and has an enemy now in melee with them.
"Interesting builds are born from limitations not by letting players put everything into one build."
And a support role saying "They should help themselves," is... kinda... making my head spin.
Debuffing support is not buff support.
I am not here to buff teammates. I'm here to neuter enemies.
But I am very serious that MDPS should be a viable playstyle too.. it's not me saying **** them. It's me saying lets cross that bridge when we get there. Also MDPS is NOT the same a Melee Tanks.. I don't want to do ANYthing to help a melee tank.. they should be self sufficient.
So Telepathy is just being disguised as CC but is actually becoming another DPS set that just looks different.
Doing something sufficiently different from that to appease those looking for a devoted controller type character would require more than a revision of the Telepathy power set. It would require updating every bit of content and foe in the game.
I am not speaking against that, just offering some clarification. With the current content, in order for Telepathy to be as effective or useful as other sets, it would need to be either a tanky set, a DPS set, or a heal set. A control set, even if perfectly designed and implemented, would be useless in almost every encounter in the game.
I am not here to buff teammates. I'm here to neuter enemies.
But I am very serious that MDPS should be a viable playstyle too.. it's not me saying **** them. It's me saying lets cross that bridge when we get there. Also MDPS is NOT the same a Melee Tanks.. I don't want to do ANYthing to help a melee tank.. they should be self sufficient.
If you're there to debuff, then why do you care about the emanation point of the heal, the part you're unconcerned with?
It's likely that if there's a boss, there's gonna be a couple people at his feet. While I do appreciate the mechanic of being active and having the caster run up to an ally to heal them when using this power, thematically it makes more sense for the heal to come from the target, not the caster.
It seems to me that your position would rather be to not have a heal effect at all in lieu of some other debuffing effect.
If you're there to debuff, then why do you care about the emanation point of the heal, the part you're unconcerned with?
It's likely that if there's a boss, there's gonna be a couple people at his feet. While I do appreciate the mechanic of being active and having the caster run up to an ally to heal them when using this power, thematically it makes more sense for the heal to come from the target, not the caster.
It seems to me that your position would rather be to not have a heal effect at all in lieu of some other debuffing effect.
If it were my ideal it wouldn't heal. But instead of offering a brand new effect for Dependancy I am suggesting that what is there be at least useful (if to no one else to at least the caster).
Telepathy as a framework is very squishy and ego sprites advantage heal takes far too long.. so if there's to be a passive heal for telepathy i would think they would want it near the casters. Not to mention confuses will target the enemy area much more often than targeting teammate areas. But until they finally FIX confuse targeting we will keep killing off good mechanics to stop griefers.
If your question is "is it what you would have done" then the answer is no. But that doesn't change the fact that the programming is done. So instead of wasting the work it could simply go back to the way it was in November (healing 10ft around the caster). Besides.. standing still as a squishy telepath it'll be hard for teammates to keep up.. thus keeping the heal from being extremely OP.
The heal is decidedly overpowered when 10 people can soak it up esp in teams.. thats why the heal should be spaced out over the combat area. Now its nerfed to heal ONE person or pet in a tiny area? that's .. not much use to anyone.
The heal is decidedly overpowered when 10 people can soak it up esp in teams.. thats why the heal should be spaced out over the combat area. Now its nerfed to heal ONE person or pet in a tiny area? that's .. not much use to anyone.
I agree on the last part, but personally I think a better solution would be to tone down the heals but keep them emanating from the target.
Doing something sufficiently different from that to appease those looking for a devoted controller type character would require more than a revision of the Telepathy power set. It would require updating every bit of content and foe in the game.
I am not speaking against that, just offering some clarification. With the current content, in order for Telepathy to be as effective or useful as other sets, it would need to be either a tanky set, a DPS set, or a heal set. A control set, even if perfectly designed and implemented, would be useless in almost every encounter in the game.
Yes this exactly. I do sympathize with those players who LOVE CONTROL. Because, in fact I'm one of them. But In order for control to work right in this game, it would require a massive overhaul.
Expecting one set upgrade to fix an entirely undeveloped game mechanic isn't being very fair to GC. He's doing what he can and what we're getting is a fairly decent compromise.
- A unique control mechanic that isn't overpowered in Interrupt.
- Significant Debuffs & Buffs to use in situations where binary control is lackluster.
I mean if you look at it, you can build a telepathic avatar that can slow, sleep, incapacitate, and debuff. On top of that you have a great oh s*%$! button in "Master of Mind". All-in-all this seems to be a well rounded powerset upgrade.
But control in this game is an irrelevant mechanic and one powerset fix isn't going to change that. We all know that is a much bigger problem. It's a bitter and hard reality. But there you have it.
Doing something sufficiently different from that to appease those looking for a devoted controller type character would require more than a revision of the Telepathy power set. It would require updating every bit of content and foe in the game.
I am not speaking against that, just offering some clarification. With the current content, in order for Telepathy to be as effective or useful as other sets, it would need to be either a tanky set, a DPS set, or a heal set. A control set, even if perfectly designed and implemented, would be useless in almost every encounter in the game.
From my experience with the Mind AT shortly after this game went F2P, I used control in every situation except bosses and they were useful 90% of the time. When On Alert did the task of "changing every bit of content and foe in the game" to make sure that it didn't work anymore, that's when it became useless.
I would still like to see these new Telepathy powers (and Mind Link) activate Telepathic Reverberation and would like to see Ego Storm *not* cancel the maintain when *ONE* enemy in a group is defeated.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
But control in this game is an irrelevant mechanic and one powerset fix isn't going to change that. We all know that is a much bigger problem. It's a bitter and hard reality. But there you have it.
If CC is irrelevant, why is every crying constantly to kill it in a fire for fear it will "ruin their game".
I don't mind that the new powers do damage. In fact I applaud GMC for the mechanics. But turning interrupts into "Power Lockouts" is a bad idea. This isn't at all what I thought he had in mind when it was explained to me.
That being said, it's not too late. Telepathy can go back to being the debuff support set it was intended to be. We just NEED (yes NEED) to get rid of this version of interrupt (or move it to celestial cleansing).
These are Tier 1 and 2 powers that are given extreme power that WILL be cherry picked by min-maxers (even with zero hold strength). That is the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to see happen with the telepathy powers.
So please keep this thing in balance:
Nerf Damage back to original states (with NO Crits adding damage.. that's what Offense is for)
Force the passive in support/hybrid only as it's OP in offensive role
Give Shadows of the Mind and Mental Leech a proper mechanic that is NOT an interrupt (not the old nor the new kind) that helps telepathic characters survive a big fight AND won't be cherry picked by Min/Max for their OPness
For those of you who say: "But JayBezz.. I want to use the Ego DoT playstyle in Offensive Gameplay" I say.. "Good idea.. go check out Ego Form and Concentration" "But I want penetration" I say "Good Idea.. there is gear for that". Nothing in this world should come for free.. and giving ranged DPS players free debuffs is A BAD IDEA
But for we few who enjoy debuffing and crippling our enemies I do not want us to be shepherded into a playstyle that we simply already rejected.
From my experience with the Mind AT shortly after this game went F2P, I used control in every situation except bosses and they were useful 90% of the time. When On Alert did the task of "changing every bit of content and foe in the game" to make sure that it didn't work anymore, that's when it became useless.
Have to agree to disagree then. I had the opposite experience on my Mind AT. The only foes that were worth controlling were those immune to control and were very few and very far between.
With the exception of a very small number of Boss fights, what is the merit in controlling an opponent that takes as little as half a second to completely defeat ?
Nerf Damage back to original states (with NO Crits adding damage.. that's what Offense is for)
Actually, no, offense is an entirely useless stat that gets devoured instantly at level 40 by diminishing returns. Just like +CC strength, +defense, +CC resist, Etc... All are made useless by the horrible diminishing return system in this game. Another deep rooted mechanical issue that needs a full system overhaul at the core, which is likely not going to happen.
And there's no reason that telepathy DPS shouldn't be made more viable (read: competitive with other sets for DPS), simply because people want the mostly useless controller side of the set to work.
Again, any sort of CC in this game is going to be useless as of now, there's no way to fix this until a full crowd control pass is done that restructures the whole system from the ground up. And we know that was never the intention of the telepathy pass, just like every other "pass" in the game.
I had hoped that the TK pass was going to make TK blades better off somehow, but no, it didn't, all it did was add a side set of overpowered ranged powers that outperformed TK blades in every way. I also hoped that one day I'd finally get a munitions pass to fix all the pointless and confusingly forced "synergy" in the set, but instead I got a two gun mojo buff, the only significant buff to the set in 3 years, and settled for it.
You guys need to remember we're living in a crippled, barely developed world. And sadly, it's more likely to stay that way than recover.
TL;DR
Take pleasure in the breadcrumbs you can salvage out of updates, it's all we've got as players.
If CC is irrelevant, why is every crying constantly to kill it in a fire for fear it will "ruin their game".
People aren't constantly crying to kill CC...they're voicing their opinions that they do not agree with your particular view on the subject and/or have telepathy toons which fit into different conceptual molds than Kontrol.
I don't mind that the new powers do damage. In fact I applaud GMC for the mechanics. But turning interrupts into "Power Lockouts" is a bad idea. This isn't at all what I thought he had in mind when it was explained to me.
You did seem rather against the whole damage thing a few pages back. I, perhaps mistakenly, got the impression that your vision is a mental wetnap that can debuff, hold, and interrupt and damage/out of set synergy/options be damned for getting in the way of anything less than being able to permalock a cosmic.
That being said, it's not too late. Telepathy can go back to being the debuff support set it was intended to be. We just NEED (yes NEED) to get rid of this version of interrupt (or move it to celestial cleansing).
In the conversations I've been in with Crush he hasn't mentioned what the set is "intended to be" because that's not really how the powersets are supposed to work. They are supposed to provide options with which the players can figure out the synergies and playstyles they wish to use. The only thing I've heard Crush mention as a playstyle for New Telepathy is that he was thinking of how the Control Wizards and their form of "Action MMO Crowd Control" works. My only reply to that would be that CWs go a lil bit overboard on their damage output ontop of that utility IMO.
These are Tier 1 and 2 powers that are given extreme power that WILL be cherry picked by min-maxers (even with zero hold strength). That is the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to see happen with the telepathy powers.
Two points here.
1. This is the reason all powers in the game need to be Baseline White Hit Adjusted to bring them ALL in line with the Baseline Standards which were established with F2P(the reason, barring bugs, that powers like Lighting Storm, Avalanche, Night Warrior and friends, Gas Pellets, Strafing Run, and so on are stronger than older powers) and then powers like these wouldn't be so appealing for "cherry picking" because most powers would, in their own way, be appealing for "cherry picking." I also believe that when this is being done that 25%(or more) should be cut right off the top or all mob damage resistance/damage should be upped 25%(or more), either works for me.
2. Not being mean here but it's not about what you want to see entirely. It's about what is best for the masses and what, IMO, fits the largest pool of concepts/playstyles/toons.
So please keep this thing in balance:
Nerf Damage back to original states (with NO Crits adding damage.. that's what Offense is for)
No, run with what's current and adjust things, again IMO, so that it takes less stacks so it can set up a faster "Action MMO-Style" rotation of powers and results. Then make sure those results are in line with the F2P Baseline and not yet another new power which can achieve horrific results with little effort.
2. Force the passive in support/hybrid only as it's OP in offensive role
No. I, personally, like the synergy options that this presents. If anything I would suggest cutting Hybrid if anything.
Give Shadows of the Mind and Mental Leech a proper mechanic that is NOT an interrupt (not the old nor the new kind) that helps telepathic characters survive a big fight AND won't be cherry picked by Min/Max for their OPness
This entire notion of "stopping the cherry pickers" is not how you balance a game. You cannot win this fight. You cannot stop them. The only thing that stops this are Archetypes and they, for the most part, are not even that well designed for their lone powersets. It's not about what the Jones are running for their builds and how it's an offense to how you play the game with your own self-imposed rules/guidelines/concept(which I use too, so that's not an insult). It's about having fun and being able to contribute in meaningful ways to the betterment of either 1) your own gaming experience or 2) the betterment/success of your team.
For those of you who say: "But JayBezz.. I want to use the Ego DoT playstyle in Offensive Gameplay" I say.. "Good idea.. go check out Ego Form and Concentration" "But I want penetration" I say "Good Idea.. there is gear for that". Nothing in this world should come for free.. and giving ranged DPS players free debuffs is A BAD IDEA
For those who say,"But Cross...I want people to play the way I see they should play because I know best." I say, "Poppycock, the more powers serve to let people make the heroes they want to make the better.""But I want to hold cosmics" I say,"Ask the devs for a hug emote." Your playstyle should not come at the expense of othr players...and giving the playerbase, as a whole, a wider variety of synergies from which to build the toons they want is A GOOD IDEA.
But for we few who enjoy debuffing and crippling our enemies I do not want us to be shepherded into a playstyle that we simply already rejected.
Then don't do the same thing to my telepath that I've had since Beta. While you and some people on these forums have been in some form of self-imposed Telepaphy Banishment people like myself, Cyrone, Sang, and others have just been playing the game...and having a fine time doing so I might add. The new you fear so much is simply more tools to those ends.
Also, it's been said a few times and I just want to address it again while adding my own bits to it. The old school EQ/CoX Style of Crowd Control is dead in the "Action MMO" Style simply because of speed and necessity. It's like the Celestial Mechanics to Canni yourself for more energy for more healing. We simply do not have the energy issues to have ever made this viable, but I'm not entirely for removing these Celestial Mechanics because someone out there might be using them in some unique way that hasn't been thought of yet. As game styles evolve so must Crowd Control evolve to rise to this challenge and disables, interrupts/knockdowns, quick debuffs, are taking over where things like Sleep, Passification, and being too weak to contribute some damage towards winning the fight have reached the point where they either need radical new ideas to make them once again viable or they need to step aside for something that works and can make Crowd Control a viable aspect to be used in concert with other dynamics.
Second Disclaimer: I do not dislike you, Jay. You just happened to be the person who put together and represents the beacon of what I, as another Telepathy Player, happen to dissagree with for the direction of this game. Or to put it another way.
"We have to shut these beacons down. They're driving the versatile telepaths insane." :biggrin:
at the expense of those who have literally spent sleepless nights, waged wars, and cried real tears with real people because they have been systemically marginalized over the course of the game's history...YOU ARE ASKING PEOPLE TO ACCEPT THEIR GAME GHETTOS and I can't stand to see it.
This pretty much defines the meme, "first world problem."
No one is being marginalized. No one is being herded into Ghettos. None of that is happening.
Sleepless nights ? Real tears ? Over numbers in a video game ?
In actual fact, how many people on this thread are going to/were actively hoping to use these powers on LIVE?
*Raises hand*
I know I was. I'm clearly no master builder or "Pro" when it comes to making decent characters, but I'd like to think I know how to make a DPS Ranged Character, and as it has been said before...ranged Ego DPS? That Telekinesis's forte, not Telepathy.
If it becomes Telepathy's then how on earth are the old and the new going to work together?
The ONLY hold in the entire game which can remotely benefit from these powers is Ego Sleep. Two interrupt powers have been for the best part subdued in terms of original purpose, this could have been done in a less harsh way though.
I'd personally hate to be in a Developers shoes right now...especially when reading this thread for feedback, but I'm sure GMC is working hard to make these powers right, so I'm personally going to hang in there and see what happens over the next iterations.
I'm not sure why there is a call for CoS to be a ranged offensive form...it grants innate aggression stealth and reduced agro generation...all of which are used normally for support role style characters in terms of reduced agro generation. The passive also has innate DoT Defense Penetration and has access to an advantage which as far as I know, grants Trauma to every attack either as a percentage chance to proc or just straight out applied to every attack. Oh and Reduced cost to Mentalist Powers.
When you think about it, at least from my standpoint, doesn't that sound a little off for an Offensive Ranged Passive?
In my experience Offensive Passives grant %XDamage Increase, %XDamage Resistance and a small bonus to something. CoS on the other hand feels like Ego Form + Support Advantages and that style of passive is planned to be given to all roles?
It really is a shame that this powerset only required tweaks to FX and Damage numbers, 9 months ago, most of the bugs then were fixed, but I'm guessing that iteration is lost forever.
I think it would be easier to determine correct values for powers if they were made with a certain role(s) in mind, which is hopefully NOT ranged DPS.
This is probably one of the rare chances for Support/Controllers to get some love, on the TELEPATHY front of all places and its being hacked away and most people probably are not going to use it anyway. Sad really.
This was probably the only update bar Redirected Force, I was REALLY looking forward to, you can tell by the 9 month wait thing myself and others did, I'd hate for that to be in vain. But in all honesty I can see myself congratulating those who got what they wanted whilst my preferred play style is non existent/rests on the shoulders of Ego Sleep.
As for my experience with the Mind AT...it was tough to level but once I had the essential holding powers, it became a lot easier, always focused on controlling situations in Solo Instances and AoRP made Mind AT a tough little cookie, trouble only came my way when I tried to take on too many people when I didn't have access to Ego Storm. Its just an AT which takes skill and determination to play.(<---not intended to target anyone who hates the AT or gave up with it. Its an observation, not a passive aggressive sentence.)
I never once advocated removing crowd control. I simply said, entirely truthfully and factually. In its current state it's worthless.
It is worthless right now, and I advocate them fixing it, fixing the entire underlying groundwork of every combat mechanic in the game, actually.
But guess what Jay?
It isn't ever going to happen now, it is now 3 years too late for them to ever go back and fix anything hard coded into the engine. This game is and I quote:
Lairs: This is something I talked with the dev team about, so I can be a little more knowledgeable. Lairs are held together with scotch tape and prayers, and whenever we go back to try to update or ater them, they fall apart messily. While I would really like to see them updated, if the price of doing so is effectively rebuilding them completely...
If they can't even touch lairs without them exploding into a pile of broken code, do you really think they can go as deep as changing how core combat mechanics work?
The game is doomed to stagnate as it is now unless they miraculously find a golden team of programmers to unravel the twisted mess of code the engine has become as it changed hands dozens of times with no documentation of changes between developers.
I'd love to see crowd control and debuffing work properly, I mained a warlock for 6 years in WoW, and loved griefing the living hell out of players with fear chaining and crippling debuffs. But I'm also a realist, borderline pessimist, especially when it comes to this game now, given the consistent history.
You need to drop the delusions that they're doing this pass of telepathy for YOU, and realize they're doing it because it had been on the schedule for over a year already, set after the power armor pass... Nothing more, they're simply obligated to try to follow the schedule they had planned previously. And that schedule does not allow for 3 months of work breaking down and tearing apart the code for combat and crowd control interactions and fixing it and everything else touching that code will undoubtedly break in the game...
Seriously, the actual stated reason for mind wipe being left out of this update now, is that GCrush "Doesn't have the time for it.". If he doesn't have the time to fiddle with a Threat wipe's balance implications for like, an hour or two one day. Then how can we expect him to ever fix crowd control and its massive issues?
In actual fact, how many people on this thread are going to/were actively hoping to use these powers on LIVE?
I absolutely plan on it.
I'm no code-monkey or uber tester. But I spent some time playing around on test tonight. On a wonky toon with about 300 pre and crappy gear no less. I was able to repeatedly wade into a x3 hard-mode test room mobs and ... wait for it.. HOLD them.
They didn't crumble to dust and the hold was a significant enough to use other powers and for me to stay alive.
My main hold.. Ego Storm combined with stacks of Manipulator.
Other powers used Mental Leech, Congress of Selves, Shadow of Doubt.
I basically lunged in with Void Shift (with manipulator running). The fear from Void Shift seemed to last a really long time. At least long enough for me to easily fire off Ego Storm, which applied more holds. I finished off the mobs with some pets (Summon Shadows) and the other powers listed.
If felt great, it felt like control, I was shocked it worked out as well as it did. Now will this work as well in PvE???. I dunno but I was impressed with how much the debuffs helped and that I was actually controlling mobs. Is this a quirk of combining CoS, Void Shift, Manipulator, and Ego Storm??? I dunno.
Again for me.. the control was there, the damage was there, and the debuffs were there. So maybe things aren't as bleak as they seem? People are welcome to try for themselves. Maybe something useful will come out of it.
I'm no code-monkey or uber tester. But I spent some time playing around on test tonight. On a wonky toon with about 300 pre and crappy gear no less. I was able to repeatedly wade into a x3 hard-mode test room mobs and ... wait for it.. HOLD them.
They didn't crumble to dust and the hold was a significant enough to use other powers and for me to stay alive.
My main hold.. Ego Storm combined with stacks of Manipulator.
Other powers used Mental Leech, Congress of Selves, Shadow of Doubt.
I basically lunged in with Void Shift (with manipulator running). The fear from Void Shift seemed to last a really long time. At least long enough for me to easily fire off Ego Storm, which applied more holds. I finished off the mobs with some pets (Summon Shadows) and the other powers listed.
If felt great, it felt like control, I was shocked it worked out as well as it did. Now will this work as well in PvE???. I dunno but I was impressed with how much the debuffs helped and that I was actually controlling mobs. Is this a quirk of combining CoS, Void Shift, Manipulator, and Ego Storm??? I dunno.
Again for me.. the control was there, the damage was there, and the debuffs were there. So maybe things aren't as bleak as they seem? People are welcome to try for themselves. Maybe something useful will come out of it.
As do I.
As long as you are running solo or at best trio, Crowd Control will be fine. I intend for the most part to use Mentella by myself, no teaming or whatever, it would likely ruin my concept and gameplay experience.
As long as you aren't looking to be better than an average Enforcer level NPC, Crowd Control is entirely viable as long as you are solo and don't mind forever running non-high level content.
Before going to LIVE:
-I'd like to see that lockout feature only come into effect vs. Super Villains and higher and Other Champions. I shouldn't have to play crippled vs average mobs to Enforcer Level NPCs, where regular control works.
-The lockout feature should not come into effect if nothing is being interrupted. E.g. Currently an opponent being alive and struck by an interrupt causes interrupt lockout. I am inclined to believe this self generated debuff is in its prelim stages and currently procs when anything living is hit by an interrupt. Of course that will change.
-Interrupt lockout should only apply in certain circumstances when versing higher level targets. For example, using an interrupt when Gravitar uses Force Yank should NOT = interrupt lockout, however when using an interrupt versus her Force Detonation Charge or Gravity Well Maintain that SHOULD = lockout.
-Crowd Control Strength Cores need to affect the lockout duration.
So higher CC str = lower lockout duration, meaning its WORTH IT investing into CC gear.
-Have CoS reconsidered. Is it really necessary to allow it to step on Ego Form's toes? Not only does it do more than Ego Form but it can currently be used in ANY role, effectively nullifying Ego Forms usefulness bar the ability to grant all damage resist, then again that is trumped by CoS's agro reduction and aggression stealth. If people want ranged DPS "Telepaths/Mentalists" then by all means look at Ego Form as your best friend. Have CoS in Support/Hybrid
"This new Telepathy mini set will bring fast and powerful control and fluid damage dealing aspect to any existing or new telepaths out there"
Here's hoping the following iterations and changes to Telepathy live upto this statement.
Purged some posts. Anger leads to suffering, and suffering leads to hyperbole, people. Stay on the light side.
Jay just texted me. Omg you've made him a martyr for the Telepathy Now movement. The whole thing started as an RP joke from Sebastian Poe. Apparently comparing in game RP movements to social change gets you banned.. I found them hilarious. He just says what we're thinking. In fact he just bought me a freeform slot so I could enjoy telepathy. I don't think he'd want me to tell people that he's one of the few people I enjoy playing with and super nice in real life. I honestly think you take him too seriously. I'm glad he has been taking up the mantle. And for the record I don't like that debuffs and crowd controls were killed off with the latest version of pts. I do not want DPS telepathy either. Too much DPS and the crowd control powers dont work at all.
In actual fact, how many people on this thread are going to/were actively hoping to use these powers on LIVE?
I have had one toon sitting next to the trainer in the Power House since the first vehicle patch waiting for anything to come. Still waiting. Will use the crap out of these powers. She was born to use them.
NO! mind break takes SO @#*() long to set up it needed no nerf EVER. stop the QQ, stop the crying stop getting the powers we waited for for so long made useless!!! :mad::mad::mad:
I dont care that it only took you 60 seconds with your trick build takes me at LEAST 5 minutes.
Whoa whoa calm the rage bro. Raediya was posting numbers, no QQ.
Those numbers are a bit nuts yeah, but look at Shadow Strike and our current powers anyways. Critting for 10k? Seems normal with the current power creep. :rolleyes:
Here's an odd duck suggestion. What if Congress of Selves had a 20% "Chance to Stun" added to it? Similar to how Ice Form has chance to apply Chill and Ice Cage?
It might be even better if that Stun was similar to the slightly stronger Stun in Sentry Mastery?
Stuns are a very effective hold type in game. So this would maybe give the people who want control more of it. While at the same time leaving the damage and debuffs in place that others want.
Considering that "Ice Form" pumps out both Chill and Ice Cage. I don't see why CoS coulnd't proc both Trauma and a Chance for Stun.
Here's an odd duck suggestion. What if Congress of Selves had a 20% "Chance to Stun" added to it? Similar to how Ice Form has chance to apply Chill and Ice Cage?
It might be even better if that Stun was similar to the slightly stronger Stun in Sentry Mastery?
Stuns are a very effective hold type in game. So this would maybe give the people who want control more of it. While at the same time leaving the damage and debuffs in place that others want.
Considering that "Ice Form" pumps out both Chill and Ice Cage. I don't see why CoS coulnd't proc both Trauma and a Chance for Stun.
As nice as that sounds, it would break your concept of controlling so much more vs boss battles. You'd stack up so much CC resistance with your CC + your passive stun ability, you'd actually render yourself more useless.
Conceptually, its a dream addition, but practicality wise, I'd only advocate something like that IF we had something other than Skarn's Bane to remove Hold Resistance Stacks.
I'd rather have *something* which removes two stacks of Hold Resistance based on a chance. But clearly some PvPer would find a way to exploit that so that is a MASSIVE NO NO, i.e. take CoS + Proposed advantage + Manipulator + High INT + Sniper Rifle + Smoke Grenade with advantage + Ego Sleep or another good holding power, high crit chance and severity and bang...you have a Controller Sniper build hybrid thingy..lol
no leave CoS as is, its fine. those who dont go all DoT will take ego form, simple as that.
No. Correction required. If people want to go DoT and ranged/Hybrid Role...all they should need to do is take INT primary + Manipulator/Concentration and spec for penetration and go with Ego Form as that buffs ALL EGO DAMAGE, which would include Ego DoT.
With CoS how it currently is what stops ranged role users doing this?
Congress of Selves + High Primary Intelligence + Ego DoTs + Intelligence Specialization - Detect Vulnerability = Insane Defense penetration which would be on top of the penetration the spec grants = Very high DoT damage, which people would complain about and voila = Le Nerf.
As it is, having CoS in all roles is a bad idea, I maintain this, as people will ask (if they haven't already) why can't <Insert Passive Name Here> be available in all roles?
And what do you mean "all DoT" There are only FOUR Ego DoTs in this game.
I say change it back to what it was 9 months ago, i.e. Support/Hybrid. Telepathy needs to focus on control/debuffing rather than DPSing, but that is not my call unfortunately.
Then again, Devs are devs for a reason, they know the game and as a result will try to produce something which doesn't destroy the game but is palatable to all players, in this case GMC gets people saying "WE WANT CONTROL!" and others saying: "WE WANT DPS"
And since there isn't enough time to do a Crowd Control Revamp, the DPS + Other crowd will win out for now, which translates into "Make this a Hybrid Passive that works in all roles", by doing that it fulfils the need/want of the DPS players fully and that of the CC calling players to some extent.
I understand why this decision has been made...doesn't mean I am necessarily happy about it, then again, I'd rather have Telepathy Additions so I can at least touch my main character some time this year, even if I won't be able to mow down regular mobs cause of interrupt lockouts and I'll likely have a hard time against enforcers since they too proc interrupt lockouts.
I don't think I'll be going near Gravitar or teaming much if I want to enjoy the experience.
Nevertheless, I'll finally be able to do content after 9 months of waiting. lol.
I'm curious what makes properly done interrupt lockouts a bad thing? I'm on the fence about them and leaning more towards them being a good thing since it means multiple telepaths can work together without stacking interrupt/CC resists on the same mob.
Note I don't think the current implimentation of the interrupt lockout is done well. At the very least the lockout should only occur if a power is actually interrupted given that the new Telepathy DoTs are designed to be spammed for debuffs as well.
What is wrong with "properly done interrupts" is that they do nothing to aid telepathy's contribution in endgame content. This was the goal of the original interrupts.
One piece of mitigation every 40 seconds is not going to help telepaths contribute. Jay advocates a 3 second mitigation that is reusable based on the cool down of the power, because he wants to be actively contributing the debuff play style in combat.. not DPS.
I agree, there is no point in granting these powers to Telepaths if I only get one shot per 40 sec to assist, and spend the rest of the time partially debuffing and having my control ripped apart through my own DPS and that of others, it fails hard and I agree with Jay.
I'm curious what makes properly done interrupt lockouts a bad thing? I'm on the fence about them and leaning more towards them being a good thing since it means multiple telepaths can work together without stacking interrupt/CC resists on the same mob.
You then have to wonder, should it take MULTIPLE Telepaths to go through A SINGLE MOB?
When I could just grab Strafing run and Night Warrior Passive and mow them down from stealth myself?
You can't really work together if your not actually doing anything. Having one shot per 40 secs to do something meaningful would be tantamount to only being able to heal or knock a target once every 40 seconds IF you spec fully for heals or damage, if you don't the lockout time is extended by another 40 seconds as base.
So that's like running into Therakiel and getting hit, you heal with BCR, then once you get one tick BCR is shut off and enters a 40 second cool down with the secondary affect (10% dmg debuff to self) left active. Or Two Gun Mojo after one tick of damage simply turns off the damage aspect and applies -10% Piercing damage resistance to target for the rest of the maintain duration then enters lockout.
We are talking about the BEST case scenario here, which is apparently a 40 sec lockout period where a telepath is going to have to do a variety of things:
-Stay Alive
-Keep an eye on others
-Keep an eye on boss
-Stand around waiting to use a meaningful attack on the boss, and if this attack is interrupted by a cherry picker build, and you accidentally fire it off at the same time, for forty seconds YOU are locked out of effectiveness.
What makes this situation even worse, is that it doesn't only apply to Super Villains and upwards...you hit a MOB member a crusty old henchmen and you as a superhero are "crippled" from touching his mind again for forty seconds. And since CO's combat is dynamic and action packed...try levelling with the new DoTs, go see if Kevin Poe or Wayland Talos will wait 40 seconds in between attacks, to give you a "chance" to do something...
Of course they will cause CO's combat system is so painfully slow like that <--said no one ever.
Right now, is it right that I go and act as a dead weight to my team by dying loads cause I can only do something reasonable once every 40 seconds? No, this version of the interrupts will KILL Telepathy, people will rather find Mind Lock more appealing vs Therakiel. (Ok maybe not that bad but seriously).
There is a better way to do this, interrupts are clearly too powerful for players to have and that is why it is feared. So find another route to go down instead of horrendous interrupt lockout powers.
I hate to say it but I'd feel really hard done by to wait for almost a year for these powers and to have been more useful just using Psi Lash and Psionic Accelerator in lairs than these powers.
It can be done, I'm sure you guys have the tech!
:biggrin:
You then have to wonder, should it take MULTIPLE Telepaths to go through A SINGLE MOB?
Since the only mobs worth interrupting are Legendaries and Cosmics....the answer to your question is yes. It should take multiple Telepaths to take on a Legendary or Cosmic.
Comments
So INSTEAD of interrupts, what if Shadow of Doubt was a huge debuff to enemy damage output for a short time. (long enough to make a shtick attack do about less offensive damage. Scale the debuff with Hold Strength.. I may start calling this mechanic "debuff strength")
What if Mental Leech INSTEAD of interrupting did a enegy sap to the enemy removing their ability to cast the strong attacks (mostly for PvP i'd assume). Have the amount of energy taken scale with "Debuff Strength"
Give players the ability to rank up "Debuff Resistance" again with gear and statting. I still don't think EGO can be both ranged damage and debuff resistance in the same stat.. it's counter intuitive to game balance. Also Putting Debuff Resistance in the same stat that adds debuff strength is counter intuitive to game balance. The most logical place for this Debuff Resistance is in REC. Recovery is a utility stat that support characters will also use (Scales with Compassion). Debuff resistance should lower incoming Debuff Strength (Hold HP, Debuff Strength, Lockout times, etc).
- -
Devs are saying interrupts don't work.
I'm saying power lockouts don't work.
So lets brainstorm some debuffs (ways to affect your enemy's ability to fight) that we DO like.
Stacking bleeds is MUCH faster than telepathy buffs. And again the damage of Mind Break isn't so fantastic.. but fortunately the damage resistance debuff IS amazing.
When talking about Mind Break it's important that we be specific about what is wow and what is not.
The WOW is actually from Mental Storm (and Collective Will) lowering target's defense to Ego attacks.
Mind Break alone also is not wow. Its damage is really low for a T0 because it REQUIRES stacks of a (1-3) secondary power to achieve damage.
So you are not comparing apples to apples. There are 4 power points, 16+ advantage points and 60 seconds investment. Compared to 2 powers with 8 advantage points over about 13 seconds.
When i first saw the whole stacking debuff thing with these new DoTs, i immediately realized just how pointless mind break was as a power. Anyone who actually uses mind break and wastes the MASSIVE debuffs you have stacked on the target for that spike damage is a moron.
So while you and raven keep saying you're "useless" for 40 seconds of lockout time, you most certainly are not, you're cutting the boss' damage in half, making them extremely vulnerable to ego damage, and making them heal your party members to boot...
Snark never dies.
Yet one more reason I'd prefer a lower debuff cap. If you can build back to full debuffs quickly you won't feel like a moron burning them for extra dps.
...and when I say a debuff cap per player I mean the Telepathy debuffs would function similar to the debuff from Mini-gun. It caps at 3, but each player can stack 3 if they have the power + adv. Additionally, Mind Break would only pop the debuffs you applied.
On a side note, I hate when the quote feature refuses to quote the post I'm trying to quote.
I didn't say I was useless, I said my crowd control - the game mechanic that I've specc'd for - is useless.
Again, If I wanted a DoT DPS character I would have made one. All Crowd Control is useless in this new system of telepathy. It really is hard to get people to understand that there is more than DPS in Champions Online.
Defense Penetration is a great debuff. I have no issue with Mental Storm's mechanics (but hope for a charging animation and head emanation point.) But that is ONE debuff.
If interrupts are too great a defensive debuff then lets find some OTHER debuffs that aren't just about debuffing defenses of enemies. Specifically debuffing the enemy offenses and enemy utility (energy).
I think lockout is an "okay" mechanic but does not belong here. Perhaps players would celebrate this being used in Celestial Cleansing's offensive form? Specifically since using the support form of the power removes the debuff that prevents using lockout again.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Perhaps, but Damage will (and should) always break hold strength. This is an obvious step in the wrong direction specifically for telepathy.
I think using the new DoT powers as offensive DoT is great.. For those who want to do this there is already Ego Form to buff their ranged damage.
Using the DoT powers as debuff powers is NOT great.. and this is the fulcrum of my dissatisfaction. Congress of selves does alot to make heal debuffs available.. but why would I EVER choose to use it in support role if I can use it in offensive role with the same effect?
There are 4 ego playstyles at play. Ranged Ego Damage, Melee Ego Damage, Buff Support, and Debuff Support. The first 3 of these work FINE now and very few people have cried #TelepathyNOW because they wanted to do more Ranged Ego Damage. Only the debuff support playstyle is left wanting.. why HAVE the telepathy pass if not to address those who are most in need?
I prefer having a debuff and held class done right.
Does that mean CO is finally getting some devs back?! :O
Does that mean we could eventually get some more actual content? :O
AND (on my wishlist) could we ever get SG hideouts like COH had?! :O
My main character is Blackflight
No. Its just one dev putting more time into this game on the side of working on NWO.
To be fair.. as of yet nothing is being reviewed.. only added. Which is why I am so adamant that these additions not conflict so directly with what telepathy currently has.
Actually, there is a specific benefit to having a heal come from the target's location and that's aiding melee teammates. Not only are there often (rather valid) comments made about melee roles, this also would give a different playstyle. Another way to use it is to help a ranged player who's drawn aggro and has an enemy now in melee with them.
-Sterga
I hadn't previously seen it this way.. but it's only targeting one person now and since Melee is so rare it really means this heal goes to no one.
As for helping out MDPS they should have their own mechanics that aid their gameplay. I have suggestions but we can cross that bridge AFTER telepathy
There's plenty of melee.
And a support role saying "They should help themselves," is... kinda... making my head spin.
Debuffing support is not buff support.
I am not here to buff teammates. I'm here to neuter enemies.
But I am very serious that MDPS should be a viable playstyle too.. it's not me saying **** them. It's me saying lets cross that bridge when we get there. Also MDPS is NOT the same a Melee Tanks.. I don't want to do ANYthing to help a melee tank.. they should be self sufficient.
Doing something sufficiently different from that to appease those looking for a devoted controller type character would require more than a revision of the Telepathy power set. It would require updating every bit of content and foe in the game.
I am not speaking against that, just offering some clarification. With the current content, in order for Telepathy to be as effective or useful as other sets, it would need to be either a tanky set, a DPS set, or a heal set. A control set, even if perfectly designed and implemented, would be useless in almost every encounter in the game.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
If you're there to debuff, then why do you care about the emanation point of the heal, the part you're unconcerned with?
It's likely that if there's a boss, there's gonna be a couple people at his feet. While I do appreciate the mechanic of being active and having the caster run up to an ally to heal them when using this power, thematically it makes more sense for the heal to come from the target, not the caster.
It seems to me that your position would rather be to not have a heal effect at all in lieu of some other debuffing effect.
If it were my ideal it wouldn't heal. But instead of offering a brand new effect for Dependancy I am suggesting that what is there be at least useful (if to no one else to at least the caster).
Telepathy as a framework is very squishy and ego sprites advantage heal takes far too long.. so if there's to be a passive heal for telepathy i would think they would want it near the casters. Not to mention confuses will target the enemy area much more often than targeting teammate areas. But until they finally FIX confuse targeting we will keep killing off good mechanics to stop griefers.
If your question is "is it what you would have done" then the answer is no. But that doesn't change the fact that the programming is done. So instead of wasting the work it could simply go back to the way it was in November (healing 10ft around the caster). Besides.. standing still as a squishy telepath it'll be hard for teammates to keep up.. thus keeping the heal from being extremely OP.
The heal is decidedly overpowered when 10 people can soak it up esp in teams.. thats why the heal should be spaced out over the combat area. Now its nerfed to heal ONE person or pet in a tiny area? that's .. not much use to anyone.
I agree on the last part, but personally I think a better solution would be to tone down the heals but keep them emanating from the target.
Yes this exactly. I do sympathize with those players who LOVE CONTROL. Because, in fact I'm one of them. But In order for control to work right in this game, it would require a massive overhaul.
Expecting one set upgrade to fix an entirely undeveloped game mechanic isn't being very fair to GC. He's doing what he can and what we're getting is a fairly decent compromise.
- A unique control mechanic that isn't overpowered in Interrupt.
- Significant Debuffs & Buffs to use in situations where binary control is lackluster.
I mean if you look at it, you can build a telepathic avatar that can slow, sleep, incapacitate, and debuff. On top of that you have a great oh s*%$! button in "Master of Mind". All-in-all this seems to be a well rounded powerset upgrade.
But control in this game is an irrelevant mechanic and one powerset fix isn't going to change that. We all know that is a much bigger problem. It's a bitter and hard reality. But there you have it.
From my experience with the Mind AT shortly after this game went F2P, I used control in every situation except bosses and they were useful 90% of the time. When On Alert did the task of "changing every bit of content and foe in the game" to make sure that it didn't work anymore, that's when it became useless.
"There is only one way to support a PFF tank: Send Cyrone lots of money weekly... because he's the only one to successfully be a true PFF Tank." - chuckwolf
If CC is irrelevant, why is every crying constantly to kill it in a fire for fear it will "ruin their game".
I don't mind that the new powers do damage. In fact I applaud GMC for the mechanics. But turning interrupts into "Power Lockouts" is a bad idea. This isn't at all what I thought he had in mind when it was explained to me.
That being said, it's not too late. Telepathy can go back to being the debuff support set it was intended to be. We just NEED (yes NEED) to get rid of this version of interrupt (or move it to celestial cleansing).
These are Tier 1 and 2 powers that are given extreme power that WILL be cherry picked by min-maxers (even with zero hold strength). That is the OPPOSITE of what I wanted to see happen with the telepathy powers.
So please keep this thing in balance:
For those of you who say: "But JayBezz.. I want to use the Ego DoT playstyle in Offensive Gameplay" I say.. "Good idea.. go check out Ego Form and Concentration" "But I want penetration" I say "Good Idea.. there is gear for that". Nothing in this world should come for free.. and giving ranged DPS players free debuffs is A BAD IDEA
But for we few who enjoy debuffing and crippling our enemies I do not want us to be shepherded into a playstyle that we simply already rejected.
Have to agree to disagree then. I had the opposite experience on my Mind AT. The only foes that were worth controlling were those immune to control and were very few and very far between.
With the exception of a very small number of Boss fights, what is the merit in controlling an opponent that takes as little as half a second to completely defeat ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Actually, no, offense is an entirely useless stat that gets devoured instantly at level 40 by diminishing returns. Just like +CC strength, +defense, +CC resist, Etc... All are made useless by the horrible diminishing return system in this game. Another deep rooted mechanical issue that needs a full system overhaul at the core, which is likely not going to happen.
And there's no reason that telepathy DPS shouldn't be made more viable (read: competitive with other sets for DPS), simply because people want the mostly useless controller side of the set to work.
Again, any sort of CC in this game is going to be useless as of now, there's no way to fix this until a full crowd control pass is done that restructures the whole system from the ground up. And we know that was never the intention of the telepathy pass, just like every other "pass" in the game.
I had hoped that the TK pass was going to make TK blades better off somehow, but no, it didn't, all it did was add a side set of overpowered ranged powers that outperformed TK blades in every way. I also hoped that one day I'd finally get a munitions pass to fix all the pointless and confusingly forced "synergy" in the set, but instead I got a two gun mojo buff, the only significant buff to the set in 3 years, and settled for it.
You guys need to remember we're living in a crippled, barely developed world. And sadly, it's more likely to stay that way than recover.
TL;DR
Take pleasure in the breadcrumbs you can salvage out of updates, it's all we've got as players.
Snark never dies.
People aren't constantly crying to kill CC...they're voicing their opinions that they do not agree with your particular view on the subject and/or have telepathy toons which fit into different conceptual molds than Kontrol.
You did seem rather against the whole damage thing a few pages back. I, perhaps mistakenly, got the impression that your vision is a mental wetnap that can debuff, hold, and interrupt and damage/out of set synergy/options be damned for getting in the way of anything less than being able to permalock a cosmic.
In the conversations I've been in with Crush he hasn't mentioned what the set is "intended to be" because that's not really how the powersets are supposed to work. They are supposed to provide options with which the players can figure out the synergies and playstyles they wish to use. The only thing I've heard Crush mention as a playstyle for New Telepathy is that he was thinking of how the Control Wizards and their form of "Action MMO Crowd Control" works. My only reply to that would be that CWs go a lil bit overboard on their damage output ontop of that utility IMO.
Two points here.
1. This is the reason all powers in the game need to be Baseline White Hit Adjusted to bring them ALL in line with the Baseline Standards which were established with F2P(the reason, barring bugs, that powers like Lighting Storm, Avalanche, Night Warrior and friends, Gas Pellets, Strafing Run, and so on are stronger than older powers) and then powers like these wouldn't be so appealing for "cherry picking" because most powers would, in their own way, be appealing for "cherry picking." I also believe that when this is being done that 25%(or more) should be cut right off the top or all mob damage resistance/damage should be upped 25%(or more), either works for me.
2. Not being mean here but it's not about what you want to see entirely. It's about what is best for the masses and what, IMO, fits the largest pool of concepts/playstyles/toons.
No, run with what's current and adjust things, again IMO, so that it takes less stacks so it can set up a faster "Action MMO-Style" rotation of powers and results. Then make sure those results are in line with the F2P Baseline and not yet another new power which can achieve horrific results with little effort. No. I, personally, like the synergy options that this presents. If anything I would suggest cutting Hybrid if anything.
This entire notion of "stopping the cherry pickers" is not how you balance a game. You cannot win this fight. You cannot stop them. The only thing that stops this are Archetypes and they, for the most part, are not even that well designed for their lone powersets. It's not about what the Jones are running for their builds and how it's an offense to how you play the game with your own self-imposed rules/guidelines/concept(which I use too, so that's not an insult). It's about having fun and being able to contribute in meaningful ways to the betterment of either 1) your own gaming experience or 2) the betterment/success of your team.
For those who say,"But Cross...I want people to play the way I see they should play because I know best." I say, "Poppycock, the more powers serve to let people make the heroes they want to make the better." "But I want to hold cosmics" I say,"Ask the devs for a hug emote." Your playstyle should not come at the expense of othr players...and giving the playerbase, as a whole, a wider variety of synergies from which to build the toons they want is A GOOD IDEA.
Then don't do the same thing to my telepath that I've had since Beta. While you and some people on these forums have been in some form of self-imposed Telepaphy Banishment people like myself, Cyrone, Sang, and others have just been playing the game...and having a fine time doing so I might add. The new you fear so much is simply more tools to those ends.
Also, it's been said a few times and I just want to address it again while adding my own bits to it. The old school EQ/CoX Style of Crowd Control is dead in the "Action MMO" Style simply because of speed and necessity. It's like the Celestial Mechanics to Canni yourself for more energy for more healing. We simply do not have the energy issues to have ever made this viable, but I'm not entirely for removing these Celestial Mechanics because someone out there might be using them in some unique way that hasn't been thought of yet. As game styles evolve so must Crowd Control evolve to rise to this challenge and disables, interrupts/knockdowns, quick debuffs, are taking over where things like Sleep, Passification, and being too weak to contribute some damage towards winning the fight have reached the point where they either need radical new ideas to make them once again viable or they need to step aside for something that works and can make Crowd Control a viable aspect to be used in concert with other dynamics.
Second Disclaimer: I do not dislike you, Jay. You just happened to be the person who put together and represents the beacon of what I, as another Telepathy Player, happen to dissagree with for the direction of this game. Or to put it another way.
"We have to shut these beacons down. They're driving the versatile telepaths insane." :biggrin:
Join Date: Aug 2009 | Title: Devslayer
This pretty much defines the meme, "first world problem."
No one is being marginalized. No one is being herded into Ghettos. None of that is happening.
Sleepless nights ? Real tears ? Over numbers in a video game ?
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
*Raises hand*
I know I was. I'm clearly no master builder or "Pro" when it comes to making decent characters, but I'd like to think I know how to make a DPS Ranged Character, and as it has been said before...ranged Ego DPS? That Telekinesis's forte, not Telepathy.
If it becomes Telepathy's then how on earth are the old and the new going to work together?
The ONLY hold in the entire game which can remotely benefit from these powers is Ego Sleep. Two interrupt powers have been for the best part subdued in terms of original purpose, this could have been done in a less harsh way though.
I'd personally hate to be in a Developers shoes right now...especially when reading this thread for feedback, but I'm sure GMC is working hard to make these powers right, so I'm personally going to hang in there and see what happens over the next iterations.
I'm not sure why there is a call for CoS to be a ranged offensive form...it grants innate aggression stealth and reduced agro generation...all of which are used normally for support role style characters in terms of reduced agro generation. The passive also has innate DoT Defense Penetration and has access to an advantage which as far as I know, grants Trauma to every attack either as a percentage chance to proc or just straight out applied to every attack. Oh and Reduced cost to Mentalist Powers.
When you think about it, at least from my standpoint, doesn't that sound a little off for an Offensive Ranged Passive?
In my experience Offensive Passives grant %XDamage Increase, %XDamage Resistance and a small bonus to something. CoS on the other hand feels like Ego Form + Support Advantages and that style of passive is planned to be given to all roles?
It really is a shame that this powerset only required tweaks to FX and Damage numbers, 9 months ago, most of the bugs then were fixed, but I'm guessing that iteration is lost forever.
I think it would be easier to determine correct values for powers if they were made with a certain role(s) in mind, which is hopefully NOT ranged DPS.
This is probably one of the rare chances for Support/Controllers to get some love, on the TELEPATHY front of all places and its being hacked away and most people probably are not going to use it anyway. Sad really.
This was probably the only update bar Redirected Force, I was REALLY looking forward to, you can tell by the 9 month wait thing myself and others did, I'd hate for that to be in vain. But in all honesty I can see myself congratulating those who got what they wanted whilst my preferred play style is non existent/rests on the shoulders of Ego Sleep.
As for my experience with the Mind AT...it was tough to level but once I had the essential holding powers, it became a lot easier, always focused on controlling situations in Solo Instances and AoRP made Mind AT a tough little cookie, trouble only came my way when I tried to take on too many people when I didn't have access to Ego Storm. Its just an AT which takes skill and determination to play.(<---not intended to target anyone who hates the AT or gave up with it. Its an observation, not a passive aggressive sentence.)
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It is worthless right now, and I advocate them fixing it, fixing the entire underlying groundwork of every combat mechanic in the game, actually.
But guess what Jay?
It isn't ever going to happen now, it is now 3 years too late for them to ever go back and fix anything hard coded into the engine. This game is and I quote:
If they can't even touch lairs without them exploding into a pile of broken code, do you really think they can go as deep as changing how core combat mechanics work?
The game is doomed to stagnate as it is now unless they miraculously find a golden team of programmers to unravel the twisted mess of code the engine has become as it changed hands dozens of times with no documentation of changes between developers.
I'd love to see crowd control and debuffing work properly, I mained a warlock for 6 years in WoW, and loved griefing the living hell out of players with fear chaining and crippling debuffs. But I'm also a realist, borderline pessimist, especially when it comes to this game now, given the consistent history.
You need to drop the delusions that they're doing this pass of telepathy for YOU, and realize they're doing it because it had been on the schedule for over a year already, set after the power armor pass... Nothing more, they're simply obligated to try to follow the schedule they had planned previously. And that schedule does not allow for 3 months of work breaking down and tearing apart the code for combat and crowd control interactions and fixing it and everything else touching that code will undoubtedly break in the game...
Seriously, the actual stated reason for mind wipe being left out of this update now, is that GCrush "Doesn't have the time for it.". If he doesn't have the time to fiddle with a Threat wipe's balance implications for like, an hour or two one day. Then how can we expect him to ever fix crowd control and its massive issues?
Snark never dies.
I absolutely plan on it.
I'm no code-monkey or uber tester. But I spent some time playing around on test tonight. On a wonky toon with about 300 pre and crappy gear no less. I was able to repeatedly wade into a x3 hard-mode test room mobs and ... wait for it.. HOLD them.
They didn't crumble to dust and the hold was a significant enough to use other powers and for me to stay alive.
My main hold.. Ego Storm combined with stacks of Manipulator.
Other powers used Mental Leech, Congress of Selves, Shadow of Doubt.
I basically lunged in with Void Shift (with manipulator running). The fear from Void Shift seemed to last a really long time. At least long enough for me to easily fire off Ego Storm, which applied more holds. I finished off the mobs with some pets (Summon Shadows) and the other powers listed.
If felt great, it felt like control, I was shocked it worked out as well as it did. Now will this work as well in PvE???. I dunno but I was impressed with how much the debuffs helped and that I was actually controlling mobs. Is this a quirk of combining CoS, Void Shift, Manipulator, and Ego Storm??? I dunno.
Again for me.. the control was there, the damage was there, and the debuffs were there. So maybe things aren't as bleak as they seem? People are welcome to try for themselves. Maybe something useful will come out of it.
As do I.
As long as you are running solo or at best trio, Crowd Control will be fine. I intend for the most part to use Mentella by myself, no teaming or whatever, it would likely ruin my concept and gameplay experience.
As long as you aren't looking to be better than an average Enforcer level NPC, Crowd Control is entirely viable as long as you are solo and don't mind forever running non-high level content.
Before going to LIVE:
-I'd like to see that lockout feature only come into effect vs. Super Villains and higher and Other Champions. I shouldn't have to play crippled vs average mobs to Enforcer Level NPCs, where regular control works.
-The lockout feature should not come into effect if nothing is being interrupted. E.g. Currently an opponent being alive and struck by an interrupt causes interrupt lockout. I am inclined to believe this self generated debuff is in its prelim stages and currently procs when anything living is hit by an interrupt. Of course that will change.
-Interrupt lockout should only apply in certain circumstances when versing higher level targets. For example, using an interrupt when Gravitar uses Force Yank should NOT = interrupt lockout, however when using an interrupt versus her Force Detonation Charge or Gravity Well Maintain that SHOULD = lockout.
-Crowd Control Strength Cores need to affect the lockout duration.
So higher CC str = lower lockout duration, meaning its WORTH IT investing into CC gear.
-Have CoS reconsidered. Is it really necessary to allow it to step on Ego Form's toes? Not only does it do more than Ego Form but it can currently be used in ANY role, effectively nullifying Ego Forms usefulness bar the ability to grant all damage resist, then again that is trumped by CoS's agro reduction and aggression stealth. If people want ranged DPS "Telepaths/Mentalists" then by all means look at Ego Form as your best friend. Have CoS in Support/Hybrid
Here's hoping the following iterations and changes to Telepathy live upto this statement.
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Jay just texted me. Omg you've made him a martyr for the Telepathy Now movement. The whole thing started as an RP joke from Sebastian Poe. Apparently comparing in game RP movements to social change gets you banned.. I found them hilarious. He just says what we're thinking. In fact he just bought me a freeform slot so I could enjoy telepathy. I don't think he'd want me to tell people that he's one of the few people I enjoy playing with and super nice in real life. I honestly think you take him too seriously. I'm glad he has been taking up the mantle. And for the record I don't like that debuffs and crowd controls were killed off with the latest version of pts. I do not want DPS telepathy either. Too much DPS and the crowd control powers dont work at all.
http://co-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?t=203001&highlight=telepathy+sebastian
#JayBezzWasRight
I have had one toon sitting next to the trainer in the Power House since the first vehicle patch waiting for anything to come. Still waiting. Will use the crap out of these powers. She was born to use them.
Whoa whoa calm the rage bro. Raediya was posting numbers, no QQ.
Those numbers are a bit nuts yeah, but look at Shadow Strike and our current powers anyways. Critting for 10k? Seems normal with the current power creep. :rolleyes:
Deliciously nutritious!
It might be even better if that Stun was similar to the slightly stronger Stun in Sentry Mastery?
Stuns are a very effective hold type in game. So this would maybe give the people who want control more of it. While at the same time leaving the damage and debuffs in place that others want.
Considering that "Ice Form" pumps out both Chill and Ice Cage. I don't see why CoS coulnd't proc both Trauma and a Chance for Stun.
As nice as that sounds, it would break your concept of controlling so much more vs boss battles. You'd stack up so much CC resistance with your CC + your passive stun ability, you'd actually render yourself more useless.
Conceptually, its a dream addition, but practicality wise, I'd only advocate something like that IF we had something other than Skarn's Bane to remove Hold Resistance Stacks.
I'd rather have *something* which removes two stacks of Hold Resistance based on a chance. But clearly some PvPer would find a way to exploit that so that is a MASSIVE NO NO, i.e. take CoS + Proposed advantage + Manipulator + High INT + Sniper Rifle + Smoke Grenade with advantage + Ego Sleep or another good holding power, high crit chance and severity and bang...you have a Controller Sniper build hybrid thingy..lol
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No. Correction required. If people want to go DoT and ranged/Hybrid Role...all they should need to do is take INT primary + Manipulator/Concentration and spec for penetration and go with Ego Form as that buffs ALL EGO DAMAGE, which would include Ego DoT.
With CoS how it currently is what stops ranged role users doing this?
Congress of Selves + High Primary Intelligence + Ego DoTs + Intelligence Specialization - Detect Vulnerability = Insane Defense penetration which would be on top of the penetration the spec grants = Very high DoT damage, which people would complain about and voila = Le Nerf.
As it is, having CoS in all roles is a bad idea, I maintain this, as people will ask (if they haven't already) why can't <Insert Passive Name Here> be available in all roles?
And what do you mean "all DoT" There are only FOUR Ego DoTs in this game.
I say change it back to what it was 9 months ago, i.e. Support/Hybrid. Telepathy needs to focus on control/debuffing rather than DPSing, but that is not my call unfortunately.
Then again, Devs are devs for a reason, they know the game and as a result will try to produce something which doesn't destroy the game but is palatable to all players, in this case GMC gets people saying "WE WANT CONTROL!" and others saying: "WE WANT DPS"
And since there isn't enough time to do a Crowd Control Revamp, the DPS + Other crowd will win out for now, which translates into "Make this a Hybrid Passive that works in all roles", by doing that it fulfils the need/want of the DPS players fully and that of the CC calling players to some extent.
I understand why this decision has been made...doesn't mean I am necessarily happy about it, then again, I'd rather have Telepathy Additions so I can at least touch my main character some time this year, even if I won't be able to mow down regular mobs cause of interrupt lockouts and I'll likely have a hard time against enforcers since they too proc interrupt lockouts.
I don't think I'll be going near Gravitar or teaming much if I want to enjoy the experience.
Nevertheless, I'll finally be able to do content after 9 months of waiting. lol.
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Note I don't think the current implimentation of the interrupt lockout is done well. At the very least the lockout should only occur if a power is actually interrupted given that the new Telepathy DoTs are designed to be spammed for debuffs as well.
One piece of mitigation every 40 seconds is not going to help telepaths contribute. Jay advocates a 3 second mitigation that is reusable based on the cool down of the power, because he wants to be actively contributing the debuff play style in combat.. not DPS.
I agree, there is no point in granting these powers to Telepaths if I only get one shot per 40 sec to assist, and spend the rest of the time partially debuffing and having my control ripped apart through my own DPS and that of others, it fails hard and I agree with Jay.
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You then have to wonder, should it take MULTIPLE Telepaths to go through A SINGLE MOB?
When I could just grab Strafing run and Night Warrior Passive and mow them down from stealth myself?
You can't really work together if your not actually doing anything. Having one shot per 40 secs to do something meaningful would be tantamount to only being able to heal or knock a target once every 40 seconds IF you spec fully for heals or damage, if you don't the lockout time is extended by another 40 seconds as base.
So that's like running into Therakiel and getting hit, you heal with BCR, then once you get one tick BCR is shut off and enters a 40 second cool down with the secondary affect (10% dmg debuff to self) left active. Or Two Gun Mojo after one tick of damage simply turns off the damage aspect and applies -10% Piercing damage resistance to target for the rest of the maintain duration then enters lockout.
We are talking about the BEST case scenario here, which is apparently a 40 sec lockout period where a telepath is going to have to do a variety of things:
-Stay Alive
-Keep an eye on others
-Keep an eye on boss
-Stand around waiting to use a meaningful attack on the boss, and if this attack is interrupted by a cherry picker build, and you accidentally fire it off at the same time, for forty seconds YOU are locked out of effectiveness.
What makes this situation even worse, is that it doesn't only apply to Super Villains and upwards...you hit a MOB member a crusty old henchmen and you as a superhero are "crippled" from touching his mind again for forty seconds. And since CO's combat is dynamic and action packed...try levelling with the new DoTs, go see if Kevin Poe or Wayland Talos will wait 40 seconds in between attacks, to give you a "chance" to do something...
Of course they will cause CO's combat system is so painfully slow like that <--said no one ever.
Right now, is it right that I go and act as a dead weight to my team by dying loads cause I can only do something reasonable once every 40 seconds? No, this version of the interrupts will KILL Telepathy, people will rather find Mind Lock more appealing vs Therakiel. (Ok maybe not that bad but seriously).
There is a better way to do this, interrupts are clearly too powerful for players to have and that is why it is feared. So find another route to go down instead of horrendous interrupt lockout powers.
I hate to say it but I'd feel really hard done by to wait for almost a year for these powers and to have been more useful just using Psi Lash and Psionic Accelerator in lairs than these powers.
It can be done, I'm sure you guys have the tech!
:biggrin:
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I am against Interrupt mechanics.
Since the only mobs worth interrupting are Legendaries and Cosmics....the answer to your question is yes. It should take multiple Telepaths to take on a Legendary or Cosmic.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.