Fyi, devices are skills... and skills are a game mechanic i guess. ^^
Ok well I had to interrupt you there. Superheros also die and have vastly different power levels. Some of them get possessed by supernatural powers and lose all control of there will power. Maybe we should do that too. Superheros in comics and superheros in an MMO don't just copy/paste over.
You can make anything a game mechanic. You could have a device that just instantly killed anyone within 3 blocks of you. Just because it's a game mechanic doesn't make it legitimate lol.
But I am not totally against devices. I just wish there was a fair way to implicate them. Some of the devices really change the game, and make an already massive learning curve game worse.
Yes, this happens to be an MMO not streetfighter, KOF, marvel vs capcom, mortal kombat and a whole list of other fighting game. No farming there, enjoy .
Yes, this happens to be an MMO not streetfighter, KOF, marvel vs capcom, mortal kombat and a whole list of other fighting game. No farming there, enjoy .
I see you've never played an MMO where they don't force you to pve to be viable in pvp... you should try that.
I see you've never played an MMO where they don't force you to pve to be viable in pvp... you should try that.
There are acceptable losses, and then there's "hey that guy died... what was his name?". stims are one of those.
People will tell you that to level a toon in PvE is also a type of farming. You can be viable to PvP without farming too in CO. Just PvP at level 6 right out of the tutorial with other level 6s. You can also do the same at level 40 just set your own rules that no one is allowed any gears or devices.
I quote this from another forum:
"If you are so skilled you can beat them with the same gear. True pvp games have no gear or gear scaled to the same levels. " What you ask for is not really a MMORPG but rather a MMOPvPG. I really think you will enjoy Marvel vs Capcom a lot more. There is also the upcoming Injustice: Gods Among Us, you can beat Superman up to a pulp using the Flash or even Nightwing and all without Kryptonite. How about that? No gear, no device, no farming and perfect balance.
Remember the +5 Holy Avenger and full plate armor which made the paladin far superior than the thief trying to backstab with rusty dagger in a leather armor?
People will tell you that to level a toon in PvE is also a type of farming. You can be viable to PvP without farming too in CO. Just PvP at level 6 right out of the tutorial with other level 6s. You can also do the same at level 40 just set your own rules that no one is allowed any gears or devices.
I quote this from another forum:
"If you are so skilled you can beat them with the same gear. True pvp games have no gear or gear scaled to the same levels. " What you ask for is not really a MMORPG but rather a MMOPvPG. I really think you will enjoy Marvel vs Capcom a lot more. There is also the upcoming Injustice: Gods Among Us, you can beat Superman up to a pulp using the Flash or even Nightwing and all without Kryptonite. How about that? No gear, no device, no farming and perfect balance.
Remember the +5 Holy Avenger and full plate armor which made the paladin far superior than the thief trying to backstab with rusty dagger in a leather armor?
Remember that one guy trying to pvp in hero game wearing lvl 6 gear trying to fight a guy in lvl 40 unity gear? Oh wait, that's right, this thread isn't about gear.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
On the subject of gear, the game I'm playing now allows you to access the 'Fair Arena' at level 20, in which you are given standardized gear for your PvP rank that everyone else is using and can get access to, and your skills are standardized as well. Every class in the Fair Arena is given a specific set of basic skills, and more skills are given to you as you ascend in PvP rank. Almost nothing applies from PvE save for a certain equip slot's benefits (everyone uses the one that has a chance of casting Confusion on the enemy, and this certain equip is very easy to get.)
It'd be nice if we had a free 'legacy' PvP gear set so Legion gear becomes irrelevant in actual PvP, but the mod system is so ingrained/monetized into the game now that they'd never do that.
On the subject of devices again... if they were more widely available (ie didn't require hours of farming or buying lockbox keys for a chance at a device you want) I would be a lot less opposed to them. As of now, it's 'oh hey i got lucky/grinded really hard and now i have five teleiosaur pheremones, i win everything!!!!!'
I also forgot to mention I own Ice Grenades on my Soldier. Now THAT is a crazy device.
On the subject of gear, the game I'm playing now allows you to access the 'Fair Arena' at level 20, in which you are given standardized gear for your PvP rank that everyone else is using and can get access to, and your skills are standardized as well. Every class in the Fair Arena is given a specific set of basic skills, and more skills are given to you as you ascend in PvP rank. Almost nothing applies from PvE save for a certain equip slot's benefits (everyone uses the one that has a chance of casting Confusion on the enemy, and this certain equip is very easy to get.)
It'd be nice if we had a free 'legacy' PvP gear set so Legion gear becomes irrelevant in actual PvP, but the mod system is so ingrained/monetized into the game now that they'd never do that.
On the subject of devices again... if they were more widely available (ie didn't require hours of farming or buying lockbox keys for a chance at a device you want) I would be a lot less opposed to them. As of now, it's 'oh hey i got lucky/grinded really hard and now i have five teleiosaur pheremones, i win everything!!!!!'
I also forgot to mention I own Ice Grenades on my Soldier. Now THAT is a crazy device.
LOL, indeed if those devices are commonly available, then you will see much, much less QQ about devices in PvP. Most of the time it is the have-nots who whine. However, the devices are part of the money churner for CO.
Free legacy PVP gear, sounds nice, which cannot be used outside of of PvP. That exist in a game with a very dedicated PvP element to it. However, you mentioned character classes and an almost total detachment of the PvP component from PvE. Having predefined classes, powers and gears makes it easy for balancing. As I suggested in other post, simply let everyone use the same set of powers that does exactly the same thing but just change the animation and skin. There is not even a need for gear or devices. Since everyone more or less gets the same set of gears anyway, there is no need for gear at all. We can just have 20 or even 30 character classes designed for PvP balance. Players can then just duel it out right from the start of the game. However, isn't this exactly what an arcade fighting game is all about? There are for some more than 30 different characters you can choose from with different moves. Only difference, you can now fight across the internet. People will then get their "perfect balance" which guess what, those who lose will then QQ about their internet connection, lag etc hahaha. I have nothing against this perfect (even then after a while, we know that some characters are just not as good in these fighting games) balance situation. However, I think this is not the genre which CO is intended for.
Remember that one guy trying to pvp in hero game wearing lvl 6 gear trying to fight a guy in lvl 40 unity gear? Oh wait, that's right, this thread isn't about gear.
I think it is point proven though. If a hero with lvl 6 gear duels one with lvl 40 gear, who loses? So why do players need to farm gear? Why do they need to farm mods? In this ieal PvP world you dream of, there should be no farming. We might as well just do away with gear, devices and anything else ie an arcade style fighting game.
A hero with no devices duels one with 5 devices, who loses? Gears, devices, mods are all part of the game. Live with it and suck it up.
You REALLY huncker down behind the stance that freeform PvP CAN NOT be balanced ever period impossible. Maybe in CO where there is not only a choice in skills, but several levels of gear and all sorts of devices. But have you ever played Guild Wars 1? The possible choices of skill combinations was insane, just like CO, yet there was balance. Top tier gear was not hard to get, and there was no pay to win element AT ALL. Mind you they had patch fixes like 2-3 times a month but that is just what it took. They decided to drop the second class in GW2 because it was to much work balancing GW1, but they still did it.
A game like CO of course will not be balanced simply because it is just not the level of game GW is. So devices? Use them! Use what ever you can really. Co rarely gets balancing right and takes way to long to do it. Just don't expect a lot of people to agree with you or even PvP with you when you roll stomp them into oblivion.
You REALLY huncker down behind the stance that freeform PvP CAN NOT be balanced ever period impossible. Maybe in CO where there is not only a choice in skills, but several levels of gear and all sorts of devices. But have you ever played Guild Wars 1? The possible choices of skill combinations was insane, just like CO, yet there was balance. Top tier gear was not hard to get, and there was no pay to win element AT ALL. Mind you they had patch fixes like 2-3 times a month but that is just what it took. They decided to drop the second class in GW2 because it was to much work balancing GW1, but they still did it.
A game like CO of course will not be balanced simply because it is just not the level of game GW is. So devices? Use them! Use what ever you can really. Co rarely gets balancing right and takes way to long to do it. Just don't expect a lot of people to agree with you or even PvP with you when you roll stomp them into oblivion.
Oh no, not never, arcade style fighting game is the closest you can get to this balance. And like I mentioned in earlier posts, if everyone had the same set of powers with different animation that will be really close to this balance as well. However, as long as skills varies, powers varies, gears varies, mods varies, devices varies, it is pretty impossible to balance. In all honesty, I have not played GW1 or GW2 hence I will not attempt to comment on that. However, is there not at least some classes which seem to have an edge over others in the least bit (genuinely clueless)? There are also many constraints which has to be put in place limiting the choice because of that (classes imo equals ATs). And yes you are right, CO was never designed like guild wars was intended. It is not PvP oriented. If we did a wiki on Guild Wars, we can see that it has a heavy slant towards PvP (hence the name Guild Wars).
Since I am not a GW player, I am just curious what is the pricing model which GW is based on. I understand it is not subscription based. But players can buy expansions and there are microtransactions. What kind of microtransactions are these?
I am not against having more balance. However, I wonder how it is possible for a dev to try to balance the game if players chooses to use/not use powers, gears, mods, skills and devices which ends up self gimping in a freeform system.
I think it may be possible to achieve a much closer semblance of balance if in CO, PvPing is restricted to the ATs (no FF), the ATs are reviewed and balanced out and everyone uses a fixed set of skills/gear/mods/devices for that AT (all have to be pre-balanced). But then, we are moving closer and closer to what an arcade fighting game will resemble and some even have minor customization available (like players can choose to use different modes of the same character and the character can be faster, or more damaging, aerial attacks predominant etc)
As long as freeforms are allowed, this is not possible (yes that is my stance LOL). In the past, this "imbalance" is not as apparent because damage strength and defenses are on a lower level. Tha gap is smaller. However, with on-alert everything gets blown up including this imbalance.
Kane, your optimism is admirable - but balanced pvp in CO which embraces an enormously diverse set of builds is just not going to happen.
The devs can't even fix Energy Surge.....let alone balance PvP. Remember when everyone complained about targeting? What was their fix? Adding little blue and red circles under player's feet.
They don't PvP and they don't have context for our feedback....so they have to ignore it. Nevermind all that - let's go back to Energy Surge. How long has this incredibly obvious bug been around?
Trying to balance out powers while stuff like that is happening is like discussing how to paint the house while it burns to the ground.
CO is still fun. You can enjoy it as is or not. But hoping for big improvements is just going to lead to disappointment imo.
In pvp arenas, you are only able to use ONE device slot. Devices are cool but you guys have to admit it and stop defending what is truly outrageous, 5x Neuroelectric Pulse Generators or 5x Pheremones or 5x Necrulitic Elixir is just over the top.
I know you know this.
So it would work like this:
-only device slot 1 is active
-cannot swap devices or build
-all effects wiped upon entering pvp (so no ppl coming in with 5 pre-used Necrulls elixir effects)
-all toggle devices switched off on entering pvp (no pretoggled mones)
In pvp arenas, you are only able to use ONE device slot. Devices are cool but you guys have to admit it and stop defending what is truly outrageous, 5x Neuroelectric Pulse Generators or 5x Pheremones or 5x Necrulitic Elixir is just over the top.
I know you know this.
So it would work like this:
-only device slot 1 is active
-cannot swap devices or build
-all effects wiped upon entering pvp (so no ppl coming in with 5 pre-used Necrulls elixir effects)
-all toggle devices switched off on entering pvp (no pretoggled mones)
NPGs have a range of 4ft and they knock the target away from a second NPG attack; they are not that useful in PvP at all. 5 Elixirs will heal about 1000hp a sec not bad but nothing which cannot be spiked down and does trauma and ebon ruin heal debuff work on it (not sure)? Didn't you mention there was a bug with pets in the bug reporting thread where they are not attacking or something? Does that affect only normal pets or the dinos from the Pheromones as well?
Anyway, I just feel that this is going no where. If A can have 5 devices, so can B. It does not really matter. We can also duel without any devices. Perhaps without any gear. My toon rotates Eruption almost on a permanent basis but yet I can still be defeated repeatedly by stealth, sleep, shadowstrike and the stealth build does not need to use devices. Stealth builds are useless against range toons with the necessary perception gear who can easily dot them. Most range toons are useless against my build. Really, it is just about the player adapting and picking up the necessary tools and skills to win in a given context. The need to narrow the context simply means the player is less able to win without such boundaries to work for him/her.
Players can choose to agree upon whether to have devices or gears, 1 or 2 or 5 devices. They have the option. However, hardcoding it into the game system, takes away that option. In other words we are even further narrowing the available viable PvP builds from the already small pool of cookie cutter builds.
Anyway, I am just debating over this for debating sake. I hardly even PvP these days.
NPGs have a range of 4ft and they knock the target away from a second NPG attack; they are not that useful in PvP at all.
Yeah but you just zap people where they land....and oh, dont forget to tell everyone theyre almost all instant-casts that crit for over 15,000.
Thats a total of around 75,000 damage if they all crit (33k if they all dont), along with any knockback damage.
Its wrong, you know it, and all youre trying to do here is keep your broken crap so you can feel awesome about doing this to people who dont have this level of device-stacking.
My toon rotates Eruption almost on a permanent basis
This is what is sad..and has yet again caused another topic like this to open. It's not fair on everyone else who hasnt spent over 30,000g on Win-Buttons. people should be playing on an equal field.
In other words we are even further narrowing the available viable PvP builds from the already small pool of cookie cutter builds.
Devices are nothing to do with your build. The only thing narrow is your inability to defeat someone with a clever strategy, no you want your win buttons, you'll do anything or pay any amount just to have your win button over everyone else. I know most of the so-called expert PvP'ers, and they all seem to have the same mentality, and use the same old build. I cant name a single one of you without Force Geyser.
Its no wonder the veteran PvPers QUIT the game. It annoys me even more when someone with a UNIQUE build they made ON THEIR OWN starts to beat people and do you know what happens? they go crying to the forums that someone who knows how to make a build beat their copy-cat/forum copy build.
Then people start crying to me "what do you know, you dont PvP"
Oh i did...i beat those builds with a Stealth-Pet toon, i would even tell people before the duel begins "you wont even be able to hit me with a single blow".
I quit PvPing because of the same crap, do you know what happened? it went like this:
"Wah, wah! He beat my Xeno-clone build with X or Y power! You should ban all of his powers so i can look tough again!"
Anyway, I am just debating over this for debating sake. I hardly even PvP these days.
With all of those sick devices, Strafing Run hitting over 45K, and only people with Legacy Stealth-Perception gear being ONLY ABLE TO WIN.
It is easy to see why A: Good legit 'on PTS all day' pro builders are quitting
and B: Terrible players are disgracing the rest of pvp'ers reputation...oh wait, what reputation, those days are long gone when there was any of that.
I rly wish PvPers would get their fingers out their backsides and start co-operating with each other to setup a fair and fun game for each other, but no, they all want to be in a place where its impossible for others to compete, to stand on top of everyone else.
That is why no matter what i say here, there always going to be "wah this and wah that" from BOTH sides.
I think it is point proven though. If a hero with lvl 6 gear duels one with lvl 40 gear, who loses? So why do players need to farm gear? Why do they need to farm mods? In this ieal PvP world you dream of, there should be no farming. We might as well just do away with gear, devices and anything else ie an arcade style fighting game.
A hero with no devices duels one with 5 devices, who loses? Gears, devices, mods are all part of the game. Live with it and suck it up.
So then you agree, by this statement, that devices contribute to overall imbalance, and require pvpers to farm pve or spend money in order to close the gap and have a fair match. Thank you for agreeing on that point.
You don't know my ideal pvp world very well... though you should, since I do believe I've seen you post in my other thread about pvp gear. Strange that you would think I want pvp without gear then...
You seem fairly obsessed with arcade style fighting games lately, even though they don't actually have anything to do with a freeform mmo. Maybe it's time for you to go play some to get that out of your system?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Dont forget to tell everyone theyre almost all instant-casts that crit for over 15,000
Thats a total of around 75,000 damage if they all crit (33k if they all dont), along with any knockback damage.
Its wrong, you know it, and all youre trying to do here is keep your broken crap so you can feel awesome about doing this to people who dont have this level of device-stacking.
Normal pets Ai are broken (any pets that use your UI command menu), the majority of devices seem to be ok.
This is what is sad..and hascause a topic like this to open. It's not fair on everyone else who hasnt spent over 30,000g on Win-Buttons. people should be playing on an equal field.
Devices are nothing to do with your build. The only thing narrow is your inability to defeat someone with a clever strategy, no you want your win buttons, you'll do anything or pay any amount just to have your win button over everyone else. I know most of the expert PvP'ers, and they all seem to have the same mentality, and use the same old build. I cant name a single one of you without Force Geyser.
Its no wonder the veteran PvPers QUIT the game. It annoys me even more when someone with a UNIQUE build they made ON THEIR OWN starts to beat people and do you know what happens? they go crying to the forums that someone who knows how to make a build beat their copy-cat/forum copy build.
Then people start crying to me "what do you know, you dont PvP"
Oh i did...i beat those builds with a Stealth-Pet toon, i would even tell people before the duel begins "you wont even be able to hit me with a single blow".
I quit PvPing because of the same crap, do you know what happened? it went like this:
"Wah, wah! He beat my Xeno-clone build with X or Y power! You should ban all of his powers so i can look tough again!"
Straight to the forums, crying.
With all of those sick devices, Strafing Run hitting over 45K, and only people with Legacy Stealth-Perception gear being ONLY ABLE TO WIN.
It is easy to see why A: Good legit 'on PTS all day' pro builders are quitting
and B: Terrible players are disgracing the rest of pvp'ers reputation...oh wait, what reputation, those days are long gone when there was any of that.
I rly wish PvPers would get their fingers out their backsides and start co-operating with each other to setup a fair and fun game for each other, but no, they all want to be in a place where its impossible for others to compete, to stand on top of everyone else.
That is why no matter what i say here, there always going to be "wah this and wah that" from BOTH sides.
Firstly, you exaggerate. For NPG to hit 15k with crits requires rather specific builds. My NPG hits for no more than 7k with a crit and that is before dodge and damage resistance. In order for all 5 NPG to hit in the first place requires them to all hit the target. Given a 4 ft range and the fact that a player will be knocked away by the first NPG, that is almost impossible in the current pvp which is dominated by range kiters.
I do not know why you are going into such frenzy. There are plenty of PvPers who do not use geysers. I am fine with being defeated by a stealth toon. No biggie. There will always be new builds coming out. There will always be new stronger powers coming out. There will always be new devices coming out.
Your outburst in this post is abhorrent in a thread where people discuss with civility although I should have known better looking at another similar outburst at my friend in another thread. Hence what I shall continue here shall be spared of any civility as well.
I have pointed out before there is no need to go down the track to try and define what is or is not a build. You can hold on to your most precious idea that a build must be exclusive of devices. But guess what? devices are here and players choose and use them just as they choose and use powers. They are not necessary pay to win. They can be farmed. As I pointed out if you want a pvp game that does not require farming, go for something like the arcade fighting game, there is not even a need to level up. This is also not a game designed like GW with PvP as its primary focus and pretty much balanced out classes.
You quit because of people calling nerf because you beat them with X or Y powers? That's nice, so why are you calling nerf because people use X or Y devices? I certainly have no issues that stealth sleep shadowstrike can defeat my build. I have never asked for a nerf of stealth or shadowstrike. I have never asked for a nerf of ascension or AoPM or 2GM or strafing run. None at all, I just go think about a way to go around it. I explore other power options or devices available. I deal with it. So deal with it.
Sure, I have a toon which requires 30k Gs to be very effective. There is no need to build a toon like mine. As I pointed out it can be defeated by a stealth toon which needs no devices. Do not judge me using yourself as a standard. I do not possess that huge an ego. I am fine being defeated in duels. This is a game. we win some we lose some. In fact, for those who knows me they will tell you I do not even seek to duel people. My build finds it hard to top the BASH chart, it is a defensive build not a hunter build. So what? I play occasionally for fun. I avoid fighting ATs in HG and only attack the top person on the chart. You know so little about me so do not presume you know me or the other PvPers. Have you seen me ever posting in forum to know the game oh so well, that I have 3 years of research, that I have the best pvp build or I am the top pvpers or that I have defeated x number of opponents? Never. If others chooses to say that my build is the best for PvE/PvP, that is of their opinions. All I admit to is I build to tank. I am also not some secretive hoarder who then hides their best knowledge of builds. People ask me, I tell. They don't ask me, I don't brag.
You see, you seem to be of the impression that you have the best build and best skills in the game and you know it all. Look at your post, it is about how you defeated so and so and how they cannot even touch your toon and then people calling nerf. Look at your youtube clips. Yes, with 5 pheromones setting a "world record" for defeating Kigatilik and when someone else breaks the record, goes crying to the forum that the power is broken, fix it. And then when it suits you, 5 dino devices are bad.
Do not even start your hypocritical nonsense on balance. The 5 stacked necrull elixir is probably the only thing that is going to keep ATs alive in PvP and even then I totally agree that there is no balance. There is bound to be PvP optimized builds vs non-optimized ones in a freeform system so spare me your self-righteous BS.
....im done, you guys spiral this into stupidness and carry on bandwagonning to keep your broken crap or just being anti-vet. Im really fed up of you guys and this whole community not knowing enough about all the powers before you flood the forums with bs. 100% Crit Chance (constant, no ego surge) is very much alive.
That, and there's no pleasing you, no matter what i say no matter how much i SHOW it to you to your face, i could plow solid physical evidence by the truck load, and you just wont get it, like...theres something wrong up their in the brain, that wont accept anything especially if it's from THAT guy who goes to a length (UNLIKE ANYONE ELSE NUDGE NUDGE) to get #### done!
You and a lot of this community are a poison to the game.
Im trying to do this game a favor and youre like "anything everyone else suggests will never work unless its something i said", cant believe i stuck around for 3 and a half years.
...are you serious. How about this, go to the length i have to prove a point instead of muttering "but this, but that" ffs. GROW UP. Got a problem? DO IT YOURSELF THEN!!!!
It is a near INSTANT CAST you can easily get hitting for around 45,000, that costs LESS THAN HALF THE ENERGY of Force Cascade, and does FAR MORE DAMAGE than it.
This is what im sick of...people who dont know enough about the capability of all the powers in the game (with/without synergies), and come on complaining and trolling JUST SO THEY CAN KEEP THEIR BROKEN POWER. Go away!
Screw this infinite battle against stupidity, i dont even know why i gave you guys a 10th chance, you aint changing anytime soon to better the game.
you will never be happy, no matter what anyone else actually bothers to do to help the game, you just whine away.
Let me quote here for all to see your opinion of yourself. All thou speaketh are Truths. We are not worthy.
So then you agree, by this statement, that devices contribute to overall imbalance, and require pvpers to farm pve or spend money in order to close the gap and have a fair match. Thank you for agreeing on that point.
You don't know my ideal pvp world very well... though you should, since I do believe I've seen you post in my other thread about pvp gear. Strange that you would think I want pvp without gear then...
You seem fairly obsessed with arcade style fighting games lately, even though they don't actually have anything to do with a freeform mmo. Maybe it's time for you to go play some to get that out of your system?
Oh certainly. The haves and have-nots. There will be a difference. Just like devices, mods and gears also requires such farming which is precisely my point that if we take out the devices, let's take out the gear and the mods too. Wouldn't that be even more balanced and fair?
Hahaha I do not need to go play some because I enjoy CO very much. You on the other hand who seem to be having this balance issue with CO may want to consider trying your hands on that.
On the contrary, I have always pointed out that there is imbalance but it cannot be resolved short of an overhaul.
From devices, gears, mods, powers, skills. The very freeform system promotes this imbalance. There have been cycles after cycles of nerf cries of one power and then another. Has it solved the balance issue? No. New FotM emerges, new nerf cries.
Nerf cries are for those who who cannot strive in such a system. Post release nerfs especially screws people who have invested time and/or money because of those who cries nerf and the worst thing is the nerfs do absolutely nothing to solve the imbalance issue other then give rise to another object of imbalance.
Necrullitic Elixir is irrelevant in PvP. Trauma instantly removes it. I love using devices. It adds another layer to building and combat that I am quite fond of. I would never be for banning them in PvP, and that's all I'm going to say on the matter.
Kane, your optimism is admirable - but balanced pvp in CO which embraces an enormously diverse set of builds is just not going to happen.
The devs can't even fix Energy Surge.....let alone balance PvP. Remember when everyone complained about targeting? What was their fix? Adding little blue and red circles under player's feet.
They don't PvP and they don't have context for our feedback....so they have to ignore it. Nevermind all that - let's go back to Energy Surge. How long has this incredibly obvious bug been around?
Trying to balance out powers while stuff like that is happening is like discussing how to paint the house while it burns to the ground.
CO is still fun. You can enjoy it as is or not. But hoping for big improvements is just going to lead to disappointment imo.
No I totally agree. The response time on critical issues is less then sub par and even smaller an easier issues are swept under the rug. I obviously HOPE for CO to be balanced someday before they close the servers, but I don't really expect it. I just really hate the attitude of people who become every thing wrong with this game then defend there play style with the reason "It can't be balanced". Power in any thing comes from the bottom up, and if the people at the bottom don't care then the ones at the top have no need to either. Small but relevant.
On the contrary, I have always pointed out that there is imbalance but it cannot be resolved short of an overhaul.
From devices, gears, mods, powers, skills. The very freeform system promotes this imbalance. There have been cycles after cycles of nerf cries of one power and then another. Has it solved the balance issue? No. New FotM emerges, new nerf cries.
Nerf cries are for those who who cannot strive in such a system. Post release nerfs especially screws people who have invested time and/or money because of those who cries nerf and the worst thing is the nerfs do absolutely nothing to solve the imbalance issue other then give rise to another object of imbalance.
Let's not get free form confused with devices and gear. Mods, gear and devices have NOTHING to do with the free form system, they only work alongside it.
And if they actually got things right for once there wouldn't be the huge cries for nerfs we see, at least not from smart people (stupid people will be stupid). Shadow strike? You can't count a change like that because it only made it worse. Contrary to popular belief you CAN nerf powers correctly or implement new powers that are fair, regardless if it fixes the balance issue or not.
Last thing that needs mentioning is the time it takes to farm for a completely optimized build vs the time it takes to buy one. There is also a luck factor, further promoting pay to win. In the end this is a pay to win game. (Maybe someone like Vixy can farm it in 3 days, but the rest of us can only dream.)
I just really hate the attitude of people who become every thing wrong with this game then defend there play style with the reason "It can't be balanced".
We can send people to the moon, and we can laser etch billions of logic circuits onto a silicon wafer the size of a fingernail, but balancing a video game? That's impossible. :biggrin:
Can't they just run make a decision, run a once-only script to unbind them and return them to inventory or overflow bag, then make them shared cooldown for multiple copies?
Surely someone was thinking of the balance ramifications of taking something that could only go in a single primary upgrade slot and making it something non-unique that could go in 5.
Can't they just run make a decision, run a once-only script to unbind them and return them to inventory or overflow bag, then make them shared cooldown for multiple copies?
Surely someone was thinking of the balance ramifications of taking something that could only go in a single primary upgrade slot and making it something non-unique that could go in 5.
No, nobody was thinking of balance ramifications. You know what they WERE thinking of?
$$$$$ holla holla get dolla $$$$$
*gleefully NPGs you away and instakills you with a Force Cascade with four hordes of dinosaurs picking at your corpse*
We can send people to the moon, and we can laser etch billions of logic circuits onto a silicon wafer the size of a fingernail, but balancing a video game? That's impossible. :biggrin:
*gleefully NPGs you away and instakills you with a Force Cascade with four hordes of dinosaurs picking at your corpse*
Before you can get to within 4ft of a target to NPG them in a metagame where control powers have been massively nerfed...I WTK you, then Ice Grenade you, then charge a Defile. They all hit at the same time and you die.
Let's just repeat it one more time.....for everyone to fully get this into their head. Getting the full gamut of devices you need to compete costs 3-4k G. Less than one Legion piece with decent mods.
That's especially for those of you who are not currently pvping, but are expressing strong opinions regarding devices in pvp.
Let's do a test shall we? Duel Vixy. Bring on the devices, except you have to wear crappy Heroic gear with r5 mods. Vixy will not use devices but wear Legion gear with r9 mods.
Trying to balance an all inclusive mmo is like trying to balance real life. To the entitled and deprived, resources differ, be it time, determination, monetary. An even field is idealism.
To a vast majority that pvp outside of the circles of the posters here, their definition of pvp differ. To them, PVP is very much alive and exists where some of you don't thread. And they actually have fun doing it. Many ATs/FFs duel amongst themselves internally in their SGs or with friends (even RPers include pvp into their RP, devices becomes a concept tool). They adjust their playstyle (inc. use of devices) and expectations accordingly to achieve a fun experience for themselves.
PVP isn't just your domain, designed for a small limited circle of pro builders and device/gear elites. And this debate has a much lesser significance to them than one might think. For them, they is no need for 'real', 'elite' or 'pro' pvpers.
Let's not get free form confused with devices and gear. Mods, gear and devices have NOTHING to do with the free form system, they only work alongside it.
And if they actually got things right for once there wouldn't be the huge cries for nerfs we see, at least not from smart people (stupid people will be stupid). Shadow strike? You can't count a change like that because it only made it worse. Contrary to popular belief you CAN nerf powers correctly or implement new powers that are fair, regardless if it fixes the balance issue or not.
Last thing that needs mentioning is the time it takes to farm for a completely optimized build vs the time it takes to buy one. There is also a luck factor, further promoting pay to win. In the end this is a pay to win game. (Maybe someone like Vixy can farm it in 3 days, but the rest of us can only dream.)
Agreed that mods and gear works alongside powers. However, the devices might as well have been a set of Tier 5 powers.
Think about the empty power slots in the power tray. What if the devs decide to introduce a list of T5 powers which does not cost energy with a level cap increase to 50? Every 2 level allows you access to 1 of these powers? However, the XP increase for each level is about the time it takes to farm say 1000g or 2000g? As someone else has pointed out the devices adds an additional dimension and element to their toon building and in that sense they function very much like additional powers minus energy cost.
I also agree it is possible to implement new powers which are not excessively OP and are more fair but fundamentally it does not fix the balance issue which is the crux of the whole discussion. Which is why I brought in the issue of gears and mods. They do create a gap between the haves and have nots. Should then these objects of imbalance also be removed from duels and HG? Where do we stop and why do we stop there?
As other players also pointed out a full set of devices does not take that long to farm. Remember in the past when it took weeks to get a toon from level 6 to level 40 doing normal content (besides the shadow colossus exploit of course)?
We can send people to the moon, and we can laser etch billions of logic circuits onto a silicon wafer the size of a fingernail, but balancing a video game? That's impossible. :biggrin:
On the contrary again, I have pointed out various times that it is possible to have a balanced system. Arcade style fighting game comes very close to this perfect balance. Let everyone use the same set of powers with only animation difference and there is balance. If everyone uses the same set of gears, mods and devices might as well not have any of them or just build them directly into the toons. Even better, since we have people talking about 10 device slots. Let's have no device slots, heck, we can even take away the power slots. Let's just fight with energy builders. You can run better, hide behind objects better, you win. As I pointed out, the devices are very much similar to having 5 extra powers without energy cost. I can have it, so can you. I farm Gs to buy them. Had they been actual powers, you will be farming XP to level up to get those powers. Some are complaining that farming takes too long and it is not fair. As pointed out, it is not that long but I guess for some, instant gratification for no work done is the only way to go.
However, what I do emphasize is this perfect balance will never be possible in an open freeform system like what CO currently have.
In CO wiki, there are 424 powers listed. Removing duplication of energy builders, powers, tier gated powers, let's just make a rough estimate of the total possible combination of power choices with 14 powers based on say 200 powers.
200!/186! = Error (the numbers are so huge that most calculator will not even give an answer)
Why did I do such a calculation? There is nothing to stop a person who choose to use all the hold powers in the game as a freeform just for an example. How then, will a dev balance the powers such that a toon like this is even viable (not even speaking of balanced) for PvP? Short of running through every possible power combination or restricting players to a fixed set of powers which performs in exactly the same way.
If we wish to do away with farming, then is everyone supposed to agree that for PvP, only use R5 mods should be used? What about those penetration core etc? Should we also ban those in PvP? The depleted uranium core definitely needs plenty of grinding or Gs to purchase. Should we not do away with anything and everything that may cause a variable. So player A (blue gear which dropped while leveling hence no farming with R5 mods) loses to player B (heroic gear farmed via UNITY with R7 mods farmed and fused). Player B claims superiority because player A cannot see the equipment which player B has. Had player A seen this, he can QQ to say that it is not balanced. Player B's win is invalid etc etc. The only difference in this case is devices like explicit powers can be seen on screen animation. Do put up a situation within CO's freeform system which can achieve such a balance without having to resort to limiting powersets and options. Remember, there was never this perfect balance (or anything close) since the beginning of CO. After cycles of nerfs there is still no such balance. Before on-alert, everything is toned down because the gap is small. With stats now being enhanced and spec tree skills coming in, the gap is widen. What is the closest semblance of balance? When 2 level 6 toons duel.
I have absolutely nothing against a balanced system nor do I yearn to steamroll everyone other player with a WIN button. However, if we want to talk about balance, then let's really balance everything out and not just nerf those which then allow one party to say neh neh neh I now have the better build, you cannot even touch me. And how was it achieved? Because so and so managed to cry on forum so loud that the devs nerfed the other person to cut the wailing of the crybabies.
If we want to balance PvP then do an overhaul. Why not make it such that PvP can only be done using an Inferno AT with predetermined powers and no gears and no devices? Everyone gets the same thing, perfect balance except for your network lag (you better P2W and subscribe to faster and more stable bandwidth). Otherwise, nerf cries are for hypocrites who can't handle not being able to win given what is given.
Capitalism is probably evil. Everyone should be equal. Let's all be communists.
I am all for devices. they add a lot more positives than negatives. I wont get into any of them because I am sure they have been mentioned in the last 14 pages of this thread somewhere.
I will however say this:
From my experience, those people who are firmly (or lightly) against devices and/or the use of devices in PvP, seem to be the same ones who make excuses why they can't get them or afford them. (i.e. "I don't have the time to farm Gs for them". "I don't have that kind of money to waste on a game for zen", and the list goes on).
If you are going to complain about devices/use of devices in PvP because you can't afford them, I'm sorry but just quit the game now or go to PvE or less competitive PvP. This game at the highest level of competition is PAY 2 WIN. I don't think it's fair to those players who have put in the time and money and effort to obtain the devices/gears/etc. to have to throw all that away just because some people are lazy and don't want to put in the time or effort. (BTW, most of my PvP toons still have heroic gear and I do just fine against legion users most of the time, so I can see both sides of the argument in a sense)
t am on of the few PvPers that doesn't play with inborn tenacity. Why? because I learned about it too late and now there are no more (or so I am told) but you don't see me complaining about it or asking for a ban on it even though I know it makes a big difference dueling players with it on and off (tested). I still do fairly well against people with it on. So instead of complaining about the use of devices such as eruption and asking for bans and whatnot, just figure out a way to play around it. (i.e. when someone eruptions, run and hide behind a tree during a duel till the timer runs out, with paragon being the only exception i know of). Don't get me wrong, I don't think its a good way of wining or playing in a 1vs1 situation to have to use eruption, and I personally only use it myself in bash when I am getting ganged and I really need to.
Anyway, thats my two cents. Devices are fine from my point of view. I too would like to see more device slots, maybe instead of 5, have 10.
I have no idea why people think that arguing to keep devices in game equals not wanting balance.
There are many things which prevents a proper balance in the game and devices are part of these. Taking devices out of the equation does not solve the inherent imbalance. That, as I pointed out repeatedly requires a drastic relook at the entire system, from powers, skills, gears, mods, devices to freeform.
If you tell me today that if all devices are removed from the game and there will be balance in PvP, I will say go right ahead and get rid of the devices (but we all know clear well this is not the case). Otherwise, that will simply be a post-release nerf of sort which from the case in time of the prototype jet is bad business.
Worse thing is, I am speaking up to retain devices for PvP because they enrich the game play on a whole and I get accused that I want to use them as a sure win button when I hardly even PvP these days (like once in 2 or 3 weeks entirely for fun).
If devices are marginalizing the game play difficulty and making things too easy, then it is time to relook at the difficulty of the content. On-alert is almost like a level cap increase without actually raising the level cap but the content level has remained pretty much the same as before.
In CO wiki, there are 424 powers listed. Removing duplication of energy builders, powers, tier gated powers, let's just make a rough estimate of the total possible combination of power choices with 14 powers based on say 200 powers.
200!/186! = Error (the numbers are so huge that most calculator will not even give an answer)
Ooh, combinatorics. For starters, what matters here are combinations, not permutations (you redundantly counted selecting each set of 14 powers in all 14! orderings), so this reduces the number by a factor of 14! to
200!/(14! 186!)
The first number you gave is ~10^32, while the number I just gave is ~10^21, we've already reduced the power space by a factor of 100 billion! (here's a better calculator for you)
More to the point, your impossibility proof fails for two reasons. The first is that the system is designed from the top down, so there is not necessarily a need to examine all 10^21 builds. The second reason is that your definition of "balanced" is intentionally unreasonable. For example, we can balance under the assumption that players are "rational actors", like economists do, in which case there is no need to worry about someone selecting all hold powers.
If this was 2009 I would write a detailed explanation of what I feel balance should be, and why it should be possible, but this is 2013 and I'm long since tired of those kinds of discussions. I neither need or expect balance, all I wanted to do was make a joke. :biggrin:
Ooh, combinatorics. For starters, what matters here are combinations, not permutations (you redundantly counted selecting each set of 14 powers in all 14! orderings), so this reduces the number by a factor of 14! to
200!/(14! 186!)
The first number you gave is ~10^32, while the number I just gave is ~10^21, we've already reduced the power space by a factor of 100 billion! (here's a better calculator for you)
More to the point, your impossibility proof fails for two reasons. The first is that the system is designed from the top down, so there is not necessarily a need to examine all 10^21 builds. The second reason is that your definition of "balanced" is intentionally unreasonable. For example, we can balance under the assumption that players are "rational actors", like economists do, in which case there is no need to worry about someone selecting all hold powers.
If this was 2009 I would write a detailed explanation of what I feel balance should be, and why it should be possible, but this is 2013 and I'm long since tired of those kinds of discussions. I neither need or expect balance, all I wanted to do was make a joke. :biggrin:
Actually I am aware of the 14 powers repeating themselves but the exact number plus only 1 energy builder and tier gating (what you refer to as top-down) makes the calculation too complex hence I just use 200! as a round up figure instead of the 424! But I still appreciate the effort to correct. Also most grateful for the link to the calculator. Was posting from work and the first few scientific calculators which I googled did not handle those astronomical numbers. Anyway even if we did take it as 10^21 builds is still 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which is still not possible within the lifespan of this game. No matter how much we try to reduce this number even if we just look at a total of 100 powers, it is still ridiculously huge.
You are absolutely right that we should all be rational players who do not choose all hold powers and be picking powers viable for PvP but that phrase alone speaks volume about power balance. Also if we are rational and devices are like a power which could indeed give an edge in PvP then let players go choose and use the device which they feel is appropriate. The insistence on not having devices then becomes a decision to self gimp which is not "rational ". So beyond the 14 powers, we also have 3 primary (with the different mod combinations) and 3 secondary gears, 5 devices to play with in our combination.
I personally prefer such logical debates as opposed to rude outburst and sarcasm which have zero content which to me is just trolling. So, I definitely appreciate the civility.
Yup! The game is balanced because anyone can take any power, and anyone can take any devices. I'm glad some of us can see it.
I assume this is not sarcasm and I agree to this as well. Which is why I do not see the need to remove an entire dimension of gameplay.
But the imbalance which others are complaining and hence asking for them to be banned from PvP is the fact that these devices need to be purchased or farmed and certainly the fact of having them and not having them is definitely going to cause a significant gap between toons. In other words, the reluctance to farm/pay to obtain these devices requires others who had put in the effort to be brought down to their status in PvP which my point is if that has to be so, then should we not remove gears, mods and anything which can cause a variance.
[...]
I will however say this:
From my experience, those people who are firmly (or lightly) against devices and/or the use of devices in PvP, seem to be the same ones who make excuses why they can't get them or afford them. (i.e. "I don't have the time to farm Gs for them". "I don't have that kind of money to waste on a game for zen", and the list goes on).
If you are going to complain about devices/use of devices in PvP because you can't afford them, I'm sorry but just quit the game now or go to PvE or less competitive PvP.This game at the highest level of competition is PAY 2 WIN. I don't think it's fair to those players who have put in the time and money and effort to obtain the devices/gears/etc. to have to throw all that away just because some people are lazy and don't want to put in the time or effort. [...]
Champions Online was never known for being a casual-friendly game anyway.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Yeah but you just zap people where they land....and oh, dont forget to tell everyone theyre almost all instant-casts that crit for over 15,000.
Thats a total of around 75,000 damage if they all crit (33k if they all dont), along with any knockback damage.
Its wrong, you know it, and all youre trying to do here is keep your broken crap so you can feel awesome about doing this to people who dont have this level of device-stacking.
Normal pets Ai are broken (any pets that use your UI command menu), the majority of devices seem to be ok.
This is what is sad..and has yet again caused another topic like this to open. It's not fair on everyone else who hasnt spent over 30,000g on Win-Buttons. people should be playing on an equal field.
Devices are nothing to do with your build. The only thing narrow is your inability to defeat someone with a clever strategy, no you want your win buttons, you'll do anything or pay any amount just to have your win button over everyone else. I know most of the so-called expert PvP'ers, and they all seem to have the same mentality, and use the same old build. I cant name a single one of you without Force Geyser.
Its no wonder the veteran PvPers QUIT the game. It annoys me even more when someone with a UNIQUE build they made ON THEIR OWN starts to beat people and do you know what happens? they go crying to the forums that someone who knows how to make a build beat their copy-cat/forum copy build.
Then people start crying to me "what do you know, you dont PvP"
Oh i did...i beat those builds with a Stealth-Pet toon, i would even tell people before the duel begins "you wont even be able to hit me with a single blow".
I quit PvPing because of the same crap, do you know what happened? it went like this:
"Wah, wah! He beat my Xeno-clone build with X or Y power! You should ban all of his powers so i can look tough again!"
Straight to the forums, crying.
With all of those sick devices, Strafing Run hitting over 45K, and only people with Legacy Stealth-Perception gear being ONLY ABLE TO WIN.
It is easy to see why A: Good legit 'on PTS all day' pro builders are quitting
and B: Terrible players are disgracing the rest of pvp'ers reputation...oh wait, what reputation, those days are long gone when there was any of that.
I rly wish PvPers would get their fingers out their backsides and start co-operating with each other to setup a fair and fun game for each other, but no, they all want to be in a place where its impossible for others to compete, to stand on top of everyone else.
That is why no matter what i say here, there always going to be "wah this and wah that" from BOTH sides.
No clue if this is your first mmo ever... but p2w is common, QQ about p2w is common. In a game with real pvp (pk) open world style, the criers can be punished in game by killing them on sight. This sadly does not work in co... yet.
Sarcasm aside, if you pvp without devices you are not a pro due to the fact that you are
lacking either some sort of survivability or maybe a heal, or even some sort of debuff.
If you compete at the horse race, do you bring a saddle along or not? If you do not happen to own a saddle, would you consider buying one before even trying to attempt in competing with the other Jockeys? Most likely, yes.
Instead of posting massive Wot's on the forum, you could actually farm Globals, mods, etc.
In the end dedication is all you need, dedication and an actual goal to accomplish.
In your case the goal would be getting devices. It does not happen over night, if you are unwilling to spend money on it, but not impossible to farm ingame at all, it just takes some time.
Before Legacy Devices came around, we just had Bloodmoon devices and whatever we cobbled together from pre-On Alert, and old devices you actually had to equip were actually kinda crippling.
Now the new, terrible PvP metagame is DEVICES DEVICES DEVICES. The nice thing about CO PvP to me was that you didn't really HAVE to farm for days to have a fighting chance. Just go in there with a good build, decent gear and you're set. Before On Alert you could even skip on farming Freon if you were pretty good at the game, and before devices we were doing fine with just 1 energy builder, 1 passive and 12 power picks.
tl; dr BACK IN MY DAY <
Devices were not properly implemented with any regards to balance. It's no wonder that the new PvP metagame latched onto them.
Before Legacy Devices came around, we just had Bloodmoon devices and whatever we cobbled together from pre-On Alert, and old devices you actually had to equip were actually kinda crippling.
Now the new, terrible PvP metagame is DEVICES DEVICES DEVICES. The nice thing about CO PvP to me was that you didn't really HAVE to farm for days to have a fighting chance. Just go in there with a good build, decent gear and you're set. Before On Alert you could even skip on farming Freon if you were pretty good at the game, and before devices we were doing fine with just 1 energy builder, 1 passive and 12 power picks.
tl; dr BACK IN MY DAY <
Devices were not properly implemented with any regards to balance. It's no wonder that the new PvP metagame latched onto them.
Not true, even before the legacy kits got released, the BM devices made the difference.
Comments
Even the Pheremones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ZzTYYtYq0YY#t=20s
Ok well I had to interrupt you there. Superheros also die and have vastly different power levels. Some of them get possessed by supernatural powers and lose all control of there will power. Maybe we should do that too. Superheros in comics and superheros in an MMO don't just copy/paste over.
You can make anything a game mechanic. You could have a device that just instantly killed anyone within 3 blocks of you. Just because it's a game mechanic doesn't make it legitimate lol.
But I am not totally against devices. I just wish there was a fair way to implicate them. Some of the devices really change the game, and make an already massive learning curve game worse.
Skills... you mean like crafting?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
No, not at all.
Your logic does not compute here, we only tolerate cynicism, negativity and derision.
- End of Line.
I'd rather get STO's level of lockbox suck if worthwhile updates come with it. -Buxom
You forgot insults.
Yes, this happens to be an MMO not streetfighter, KOF, marvel vs capcom, mortal kombat and a whole list of other fighting game. No farming there, enjoy
I see you've never played an MMO where they don't force you to pve to be viable in pvp... you should try that.
There are acceptable losses, and then there's "hey that guy died... what was his name?". stims are one of those.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
People will tell you that to level a toon in PvE is also a type of farming. You can be viable to PvP without farming too in CO. Just PvP at level 6 right out of the tutorial with other level 6s. You can also do the same at level 40 just set your own rules that no one is allowed any gears or devices.
I quote this from another forum:
"If you are so skilled you can beat them with the same gear. True pvp games have no gear or gear scaled to the same levels. " What you ask for is not really a MMORPG but rather a MMOPvPG. I really think you will enjoy Marvel vs Capcom a lot more. There is also the upcoming Injustice: Gods Among Us, you can beat Superman up to a pulp using the Flash or even Nightwing and all without Kryptonite. How about that? No gear, no device, no farming and perfect balance.
Remember the +5 Holy Avenger and full plate armor which made the paladin far superior than the thief trying to backstab with rusty dagger in a leather armor?
Remember that one guy trying to pvp in hero game wearing lvl 6 gear trying to fight a guy in lvl 40 unity gear? Oh wait, that's right, this thread isn't about gear.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
It'd be nice if we had a free 'legacy' PvP gear set so Legion gear becomes irrelevant in actual PvP, but the mod system is so ingrained/monetized into the game now that they'd never do that.
On the subject of devices again... if they were more widely available (ie didn't require hours of farming or buying lockbox keys for a chance at a device you want) I would be a lot less opposed to them. As of now, it's 'oh hey i got lucky/grinded really hard and now i have five teleiosaur pheremones, i win everything!!!!!'
I also forgot to mention I own Ice Grenades on my Soldier. Now THAT is a crazy device.
LOL, indeed if those devices are commonly available, then you will see much, much less QQ about devices in PvP. Most of the time it is the have-nots who whine. However, the devices are part of the money churner for CO.
Free legacy PVP gear, sounds nice, which cannot be used outside of of PvP. That exist in a game with a very dedicated PvP element to it. However, you mentioned character classes and an almost total detachment of the PvP component from PvE. Having predefined classes, powers and gears makes it easy for balancing. As I suggested in other post, simply let everyone use the same set of powers that does exactly the same thing but just change the animation and skin. There is not even a need for gear or devices. Since everyone more or less gets the same set of gears anyway, there is no need for gear at all. We can just have 20 or even 30 character classes designed for PvP balance. Players can then just duel it out right from the start of the game. However, isn't this exactly what an arcade fighting game is all about? There are for some more than 30 different characters you can choose from with different moves. Only difference, you can now fight across the internet. People will then get their "perfect balance" which guess what, those who lose will then QQ about their internet connection, lag etc hahaha. I have nothing against this perfect (even then after a while, we know that some characters are just not as good in these fighting games) balance situation. However, I think this is not the genre which CO is intended for.
I think it is point proven though. If a hero with lvl 6 gear duels one with lvl 40 gear, who loses? So why do players need to farm gear? Why do they need to farm mods? In this ieal PvP world you dream of, there should be no farming. We might as well just do away with gear, devices and anything else ie an arcade style fighting game.
A hero with no devices duels one with 5 devices, who loses? Gears, devices, mods are all part of the game. Live with it and suck it up.
You REALLY huncker down behind the stance that freeform PvP CAN NOT be balanced ever period impossible. Maybe in CO where there is not only a choice in skills, but several levels of gear and all sorts of devices. But have you ever played Guild Wars 1? The possible choices of skill combinations was insane, just like CO, yet there was balance. Top tier gear was not hard to get, and there was no pay to win element AT ALL. Mind you they had patch fixes like 2-3 times a month but that is just what it took. They decided to drop the second class in GW2 because it was to much work balancing GW1, but they still did it.
A game like CO of course will not be balanced simply because it is just not the level of game GW is. So devices? Use them! Use what ever you can really. Co rarely gets balancing right and takes way to long to do it. Just don't expect a lot of people to agree with you or even PvP with you when you roll stomp them into oblivion.
Oh no, not never, arcade style fighting game is the closest you can get to this balance. And like I mentioned in earlier posts, if everyone had the same set of powers with different animation that will be really close to this balance as well. However, as long as skills varies, powers varies, gears varies, mods varies, devices varies, it is pretty impossible to balance. In all honesty, I have not played GW1 or GW2 hence I will not attempt to comment on that. However, is there not at least some classes which seem to have an edge over others in the least bit (genuinely clueless)? There are also many constraints which has to be put in place limiting the choice because of that (classes imo equals ATs). And yes you are right, CO was never designed like guild wars was intended. It is not PvP oriented. If we did a wiki on Guild Wars, we can see that it has a heavy slant towards PvP (hence the name Guild Wars).
Since I am not a GW player, I am just curious what is the pricing model which GW is based on. I understand it is not subscription based. But players can buy expansions and there are microtransactions. What kind of microtransactions are these?
I am not against having more balance. However, I wonder how it is possible for a dev to try to balance the game if players chooses to use/not use powers, gears, mods, skills and devices which ends up self gimping in a freeform system.
I think it may be possible to achieve a much closer semblance of balance if in CO, PvPing is restricted to the ATs (no FF), the ATs are reviewed and balanced out and everyone uses a fixed set of skills/gear/mods/devices for that AT (all have to be pre-balanced). But then, we are moving closer and closer to what an arcade fighting game will resemble and some even have minor customization available (like players can choose to use different modes of the same character and the character can be faster, or more damaging, aerial attacks predominant etc)
As long as freeforms are allowed, this is not possible (yes that is my stance LOL). In the past, this "imbalance" is not as apparent because damage strength and defenses are on a lower level. Tha gap is smaller. However, with on-alert everything gets blown up including this imbalance.
The devs can't even fix Energy Surge.....let alone balance PvP. Remember when everyone complained about targeting? What was their fix? Adding little blue and red circles under player's feet.
They don't PvP and they don't have context for our feedback....so they have to ignore it. Nevermind all that - let's go back to Energy Surge. How long has this incredibly obvious bug been around?
Trying to balance out powers while stuff like that is happening is like discussing how to paint the house while it burns to the ground.
CO is still fun. You can enjoy it as is or not. But hoping for big improvements is just going to lead to disappointment imo.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
In pvp arenas, you are only able to use ONE device slot. Devices are cool but you guys have to admit it and stop defending what is truly outrageous, 5x Neuroelectric Pulse Generators or 5x Pheremones or 5x Necrulitic Elixir is just over the top.
I know you know this.
So it would work like this:
-only device slot 1 is active
-cannot swap devices or build
-all effects wiped upon entering pvp (so no ppl coming in with 5 pre-used Necrulls elixir effects)
-all toggle devices switched off on entering pvp (no pretoggled mones)
NPGs have a range of 4ft and they knock the target away from a second NPG attack; they are not that useful in PvP at all. 5 Elixirs will heal about 1000hp a sec not bad but nothing which cannot be spiked down and does trauma and ebon ruin heal debuff work on it (not sure)? Didn't you mention there was a bug with pets in the bug reporting thread where they are not attacking or something? Does that affect only normal pets or the dinos from the Pheromones as well?
Anyway, I just feel that this is going no where. If A can have 5 devices, so can B. It does not really matter. We can also duel without any devices. Perhaps without any gear. My toon rotates Eruption almost on a permanent basis but yet I can still be defeated repeatedly by stealth, sleep, shadowstrike and the stealth build does not need to use devices. Stealth builds are useless against range toons with the necessary perception gear who can easily dot them. Most range toons are useless against my build. Really, it is just about the player adapting and picking up the necessary tools and skills to win in a given context. The need to narrow the context simply means the player is less able to win without such boundaries to work for him/her.
Players can choose to agree upon whether to have devices or gears, 1 or 2 or 5 devices. They have the option. However, hardcoding it into the game system, takes away that option. In other words we are even further narrowing the available viable PvP builds from the already small pool of cookie cutter builds.
Anyway, I am just debating over this for debating sake. I hardly even PvP these days.
Yeah but you just zap people where they land....and oh, dont forget to tell everyone theyre almost all instant-casts that crit for over 15,000.
Thats a total of around 75,000 damage if they all crit (33k if they all dont), along with any knockback damage.
Its wrong, you know it, and all youre trying to do here is keep your broken crap so you can feel awesome about doing this to people who dont have this level of device-stacking.
Normal pets Ai are broken (any pets that use your UI command menu), the majority of devices seem to be ok.
This is what is sad..and has yet again caused another topic like this to open. It's not fair on everyone else who hasnt spent over 30,000g on Win-Buttons. people should be playing on an equal field.
Devices are nothing to do with your build. The only thing narrow is your inability to defeat someone with a clever strategy, no you want your win buttons, you'll do anything or pay any amount just to have your win button over everyone else. I know most of the so-called expert PvP'ers, and they all seem to have the same mentality, and use the same old build. I cant name a single one of you without Force Geyser.
Its no wonder the veteran PvPers QUIT the game. It annoys me even more when someone with a UNIQUE build they made ON THEIR OWN starts to beat people and do you know what happens? they go crying to the forums that someone who knows how to make a build beat their copy-cat/forum copy build.
Then people start crying to me "what do you know, you dont PvP"
Oh i did...i beat those builds with a Stealth-Pet toon, i would even tell people before the duel begins "you wont even be able to hit me with a single blow".
I quit PvPing because of the same crap, do you know what happened? it went like this:
"Wah, wah! He beat my Xeno-clone build with X or Y power! You should ban all of his powers so i can look tough again!"
Straight to the forums, crying.
With all of those sick devices, Strafing Run hitting over 45K, and only people with Legacy Stealth-Perception gear being ONLY ABLE TO WIN.
It is easy to see why A: Good legit 'on PTS all day' pro builders are quitting
and B: Terrible players are disgracing the rest of pvp'ers reputation...oh wait, what reputation, those days are long gone when there was any of that.
I rly wish PvPers would get their fingers out their backsides and start co-operating with each other to setup a fair and fun game for each other, but no, they all want to be in a place where its impossible for others to compete, to stand on top of everyone else.
That is why no matter what i say here, there always going to be "wah this and wah that" from BOTH sides.
So then you agree, by this statement, that devices contribute to overall imbalance, and require pvpers to farm pve or spend money in order to close the gap and have a fair match. Thank you for agreeing on that point.
You don't know my ideal pvp world very well... though you should, since I do believe I've seen you post in my other thread about pvp gear. Strange that you would think I want pvp without gear then...
You seem fairly obsessed with arcade style fighting games lately, even though they don't actually have anything to do with a freeform mmo. Maybe it's time for you to go play some to get that out of your system?
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Firstly, you exaggerate. For NPG to hit 15k with crits requires rather specific builds. My NPG hits for no more than 7k with a crit and that is before dodge and damage resistance. In order for all 5 NPG to hit in the first place requires them to all hit the target. Given a 4 ft range and the fact that a player will be knocked away by the first NPG, that is almost impossible in the current pvp which is dominated by range kiters.
I do not know why you are going into such frenzy. There are plenty of PvPers who do not use geysers. I am fine with being defeated by a stealth toon. No biggie. There will always be new builds coming out. There will always be new stronger powers coming out. There will always be new devices coming out.
Your outburst in this post is abhorrent in a thread where people discuss with civility although I should have known better looking at another similar outburst at my friend in another thread. Hence what I shall continue here shall be spared of any civility as well.
I have pointed out before there is no need to go down the track to try and define what is or is not a build. You can hold on to your most precious idea that a build must be exclusive of devices. But guess what? devices are here and players choose and use them just as they choose and use powers. They are not necessary pay to win. They can be farmed. As I pointed out if you want a pvp game that does not require farming, go for something like the arcade fighting game, there is not even a need to level up. This is also not a game designed like GW with PvP as its primary focus and pretty much balanced out classes.
You quit because of people calling nerf because you beat them with X or Y powers? That's nice, so why are you calling nerf because people use X or Y devices? I certainly have no issues that stealth sleep shadowstrike can defeat my build. I have never asked for a nerf of stealth or shadowstrike. I have never asked for a nerf of ascension or AoPM or 2GM or strafing run. None at all, I just go think about a way to go around it. I explore other power options or devices available. I deal with it. So deal with it.
Sure, I have a toon which requires 30k Gs to be very effective. There is no need to build a toon like mine. As I pointed out it can be defeated by a stealth toon which needs no devices. Do not judge me using yourself as a standard. I do not possess that huge an ego. I am fine being defeated in duels. This is a game. we win some we lose some. In fact, for those who knows me they will tell you I do not even seek to duel people. My build finds it hard to top the BASH chart, it is a defensive build not a hunter build. So what? I play occasionally for fun. I avoid fighting ATs in HG and only attack the top person on the chart. You know so little about me so do not presume you know me or the other PvPers. Have you seen me ever posting in forum to know the game oh so well, that I have 3 years of research, that I have the best pvp build or I am the top pvpers or that I have defeated x number of opponents? Never. If others chooses to say that my build is the best for PvE/PvP, that is of their opinions. All I admit to is I build to tank. I am also not some secretive hoarder who then hides their best knowledge of builds. People ask me, I tell. They don't ask me, I don't brag.
You see, you seem to be of the impression that you have the best build and best skills in the game and you know it all. Look at your post, it is about how you defeated so and so and how they cannot even touch your toon and then people calling nerf. Look at your youtube clips. Yes, with 5 pheromones setting a "world record" for defeating Kigatilik and when someone else breaks the record, goes crying to the forum that the power is broken, fix it. And then when it suits you, 5 dino devices are bad.
Do not even start your hypocritical nonsense on balance. The 5 stacked necrull elixir is probably the only thing that is going to keep ATs alive in PvP and even then I totally agree that there is no balance. There is bound to be PvP optimized builds vs non-optimized ones in a freeform system so spare me your self-righteous BS.
Let me quote here for all to see your opinion of yourself. All thou speaketh are Truths. We are not worthy.
Oh certainly. The haves and have-nots. There will be a difference. Just like devices, mods and gears also requires such farming which is precisely my point that if we take out the devices, let's take out the gear and the mods too. Wouldn't that be even more balanced and fair?
Hahaha I do not need to go play some because I enjoy CO very much. You on the other hand who seem to be having this balance issue with CO may want to consider trying your hands on that.
From devices, gears, mods, powers, skills. The very freeform system promotes this imbalance. There have been cycles after cycles of nerf cries of one power and then another. Has it solved the balance issue? No. New FotM emerges, new nerf cries.
Nerf cries are for those who who cannot strive in such a system. Post release nerfs especially screws people who have invested time and/or money because of those who cries nerf and the worst thing is the nerfs do absolutely nothing to solve the imbalance issue other then give rise to another object of imbalance.
No I totally agree. The response time on critical issues is less then sub par and even smaller an easier issues are swept under the rug. I obviously HOPE for CO to be balanced someday before they close the servers, but I don't really expect it. I just really hate the attitude of people who become every thing wrong with this game then defend there play style with the reason "It can't be balanced". Power in any thing comes from the bottom up, and if the people at the bottom don't care then the ones at the top have no need to either. Small but relevant.
Let's not get free form confused with devices and gear. Mods, gear and devices have NOTHING to do with the free form system, they only work alongside it.
And if they actually got things right for once there wouldn't be the huge cries for nerfs we see, at least not from smart people (stupid people will be stupid). Shadow strike? You can't count a change like that because it only made it worse. Contrary to popular belief you CAN nerf powers correctly or implement new powers that are fair, regardless if it fixes the balance issue or not.
Last thing that needs mentioning is the time it takes to farm for a completely optimized build vs the time it takes to buy one. There is also a luck factor, further promoting pay to win. In the end this is a pay to win game. (Maybe someone like Vixy can farm it in 3 days, but the rest of us can only dream.)
...thick as pig s##t
We can send people to the moon, and we can laser etch billions of logic circuits onto a silicon wafer the size of a fingernail, but balancing a video game? That's impossible. :biggrin:
Surely someone was thinking of the balance ramifications of taking something that could only go in a single primary upgrade slot and making it something non-unique that could go in 5.
No, nobody was thinking of balance ramifications. You know what they WERE thinking of?
$$$$$ holla holla get dolla $$$$$
*gleefully NPGs you away and instakills you with a Force Cascade with four hordes of dinosaurs picking at your corpse*
I wish there was a "Like" button like facebook.
Before you can get to within 4ft of a target to NPG them in a metagame where control powers have been massively nerfed...I WTK you, then Ice Grenade you, then charge a Defile. They all hit at the same time and you die.
Let's just repeat it one more time.....for everyone to fully get this into their head. Getting the full gamut of devices you need to compete costs 3-4k G. Less than one Legion piece with decent mods.
That's especially for those of you who are not currently pvping, but are expressing strong opinions regarding devices in pvp.
Let's do a test shall we? Duel Vixy. Bring on the devices, except you have to wear crappy Heroic gear with r5 mods. Vixy will not use devices but wear Legion gear with r9 mods.
Care to guess the outcome?
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
To a vast majority that pvp outside of the circles of the posters here, their definition of pvp differ. To them, PVP is very much alive and exists where some of you don't thread. And they actually have fun doing it. Many ATs/FFs duel amongst themselves internally in their SGs or with friends (even RPers include pvp into their RP, devices becomes a concept tool). They adjust their playstyle (inc. use of devices) and expectations accordingly to achieve a fun experience for themselves.
PVP isn't just your domain, designed for a small limited circle of pro builders and device/gear elites. And this debate has a much lesser significance to them than one might think. For them, they is no need for 'real', 'elite' or 'pro' pvpers.
Agreed that mods and gear works alongside powers. However, the devices might as well have been a set of Tier 5 powers.
Think about the empty power slots in the power tray. What if the devs decide to introduce a list of T5 powers which does not cost energy with a level cap increase to 50? Every 2 level allows you access to 1 of these powers? However, the XP increase for each level is about the time it takes to farm say 1000g or 2000g? As someone else has pointed out the devices adds an additional dimension and element to their toon building and in that sense they function very much like additional powers minus energy cost.
I also agree it is possible to implement new powers which are not excessively OP and are more fair but fundamentally it does not fix the balance issue which is the crux of the whole discussion. Which is why I brought in the issue of gears and mods. They do create a gap between the haves and have nots. Should then these objects of imbalance also be removed from duels and HG? Where do we stop and why do we stop there?
As other players also pointed out a full set of devices does not take that long to farm. Remember in the past when it took weeks to get a toon from level 6 to level 40 doing normal content (besides the shadow colossus exploit of course)?
On the contrary again, I have pointed out various times that it is possible to have a balanced system. Arcade style fighting game comes very close to this perfect balance. Let everyone use the same set of powers with only animation difference and there is balance. If everyone uses the same set of gears, mods and devices might as well not have any of them or just build them directly into the toons. Even better, since we have people talking about 10 device slots. Let's have no device slots, heck, we can even take away the power slots. Let's just fight with energy builders. You can run better, hide behind objects better, you win. As I pointed out, the devices are very much similar to having 5 extra powers without energy cost. I can have it, so can you. I farm Gs to buy them. Had they been actual powers, you will be farming XP to level up to get those powers. Some are complaining that farming takes too long and it is not fair. As pointed out, it is not that long but I guess for some, instant gratification for no work done is the only way to go.
However, what I do emphasize is this perfect balance will never be possible in an open freeform system like what CO currently have.
In CO wiki, there are 424 powers listed. Removing duplication of energy builders, powers, tier gated powers, let's just make a rough estimate of the total possible combination of power choices with 14 powers based on say 200 powers.
200!/186! = Error (the numbers are so huge that most calculator will not even give an answer)
Why did I do such a calculation? There is nothing to stop a person who choose to use all the hold powers in the game as a freeform just for an example. How then, will a dev balance the powers such that a toon like this is even viable (not even speaking of balanced) for PvP? Short of running through every possible power combination or restricting players to a fixed set of powers which performs in exactly the same way.
If we wish to do away with farming, then is everyone supposed to agree that for PvP, only use R5 mods should be used? What about those penetration core etc? Should we also ban those in PvP? The depleted uranium core definitely needs plenty of grinding or Gs to purchase. Should we not do away with anything and everything that may cause a variable. So player A (blue gear which dropped while leveling hence no farming with R5 mods) loses to player B (heroic gear farmed via UNITY with R7 mods farmed and fused). Player B claims superiority because player A cannot see the equipment which player B has. Had player A seen this, he can QQ to say that it is not balanced. Player B's win is invalid etc etc. The only difference in this case is devices like explicit powers can be seen on screen animation. Do put up a situation within CO's freeform system which can achieve such a balance without having to resort to limiting powersets and options. Remember, there was never this perfect balance (or anything close) since the beginning of CO. After cycles of nerfs there is still no such balance. Before on-alert, everything is toned down because the gap is small. With stats now being enhanced and spec tree skills coming in, the gap is widen. What is the closest semblance of balance? When 2 level 6 toons duel.
I have absolutely nothing against a balanced system nor do I yearn to steamroll everyone other player with a WIN button. However, if we want to talk about balance, then let's really balance everything out and not just nerf those which then allow one party to say neh neh neh I now have the better build, you cannot even touch me. And how was it achieved? Because so and so managed to cry on forum so loud that the devs nerfed the other person to cut the wailing of the crybabies.
If we want to balance PvP then do an overhaul. Why not make it such that PvP can only be done using an Inferno AT with predetermined powers and no gears and no devices? Everyone gets the same thing, perfect balance except for your network lag (you better P2W and subscribe to faster and more stable bandwidth). Otherwise, nerf cries are for hypocrites who can't handle not being able to win given what is given.
Capitalism is probably evil. Everyone should be equal. Let's all be communists.
Neuroelectric Pulse Generator
I will however say this:
From my experience, those people who are firmly (or lightly) against devices and/or the use of devices in PvP, seem to be the same ones who make excuses why they can't get them or afford them. (i.e. "I don't have the time to farm Gs for them". "I don't have that kind of money to waste on a game for zen", and the list goes on).
If you are going to complain about devices/use of devices in PvP because you can't afford them, I'm sorry but just quit the game now or go to PvE or less competitive PvP. This game at the highest level of competition is PAY 2 WIN. I don't think it's fair to those players who have put in the time and money and effort to obtain the devices/gears/etc. to have to throw all that away just because some people are lazy and don't want to put in the time or effort. (BTW, most of my PvP toons still have heroic gear and I do just fine against legion users most of the time, so I can see both sides of the argument in a sense)
t am on of the few PvPers that doesn't play with inborn tenacity. Why? because I learned about it too late and now there are no more (or so I am told) but you don't see me complaining about it or asking for a ban on it even though I know it makes a big difference dueling players with it on and off (tested). I still do fairly well against people with it on. So instead of complaining about the use of devices such as eruption and asking for bans and whatnot, just figure out a way to play around it. (i.e. when someone eruptions, run and hide behind a tree during a duel till the timer runs out, with paragon being the only exception i know of). Don't get me wrong, I don't think its a good way of wining or playing in a 1vs1 situation to have to use eruption, and I personally only use it myself in bash when I am getting ganged and I really need to.
Anyway, thats my two cents. Devices are fine from my point of view. I too would like to see more device slots, maybe instead of 5, have 10.
There are many things which prevents a proper balance in the game and devices are part of these. Taking devices out of the equation does not solve the inherent imbalance. That, as I pointed out repeatedly requires a drastic relook at the entire system, from powers, skills, gears, mods, devices to freeform.
If you tell me today that if all devices are removed from the game and there will be balance in PvP, I will say go right ahead and get rid of the devices (but we all know clear well this is not the case). Otherwise, that will simply be a post-release nerf of sort which from the case in time of the prototype jet is bad business.
Worse thing is, I am speaking up to retain devices for PvP because they enrich the game play on a whole and I get accused that I want to use them as a sure win button when I hardly even PvP these days (like once in 2 or 3 weeks entirely for fun).
If devices are marginalizing the game play difficulty and making things too easy, then it is time to relook at the difficulty of the content. On-alert is almost like a level cap increase without actually raising the level cap but the content level has remained pretty much the same as before.
Ooh, combinatorics. For starters, what matters here are combinations, not permutations (you redundantly counted selecting each set of 14 powers in all 14! orderings), so this reduces the number by a factor of 14! to
200!/(14! 186!)
The first number you gave is ~10^32, while the number I just gave is ~10^21, we've already reduced the power space by a factor of 100 billion! (here's a better calculator for you)
More to the point, your impossibility proof fails for two reasons. The first is that the system is designed from the top down, so there is not necessarily a need to examine all 10^21 builds. The second reason is that your definition of "balanced" is intentionally unreasonable. For example, we can balance under the assumption that players are "rational actors", like economists do, in which case there is no need to worry about someone selecting all hold powers.
If this was 2009 I would write a detailed explanation of what I feel balance should be, and why it should be possible, but this is 2013 and I'm long since tired of those kinds of discussions. I neither need or expect balance, all I wanted to do was make a joke. :biggrin:
Yup! The game is balanced because anyone can take any power, and anyone can take any devices. I'm glad some of us can see it.
Actually I am aware of the 14 powers repeating themselves but the exact number plus only 1 energy builder and tier gating (what you refer to as top-down) makes the calculation too complex hence I just use 200! as a round up figure instead of the 424! But I still appreciate the effort to correct. Also most grateful for the link to the calculator. Was posting from work and the first few scientific calculators which I googled did not handle those astronomical numbers. Anyway even if we did take it as 10^21 builds is still 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 which is still not possible within the lifespan of this game. No matter how much we try to reduce this number even if we just look at a total of 100 powers, it is still ridiculously huge.
You are absolutely right that we should all be rational players who do not choose all hold powers and be picking powers viable for PvP but that phrase alone speaks volume about power balance. Also if we are rational and devices are like a power which could indeed give an edge in PvP then let players go choose and use the device which they feel is appropriate. The insistence on not having devices then becomes a decision to self gimp which is not "rational ". So beyond the 14 powers, we also have 3 primary (with the different mod combinations) and 3 secondary gears, 5 devices to play with in our combination.
I personally prefer such logical debates as opposed to rude outburst and sarcasm which have zero content which to me is just trolling. So, I definitely appreciate the civility.
I assume this is not sarcasm and I agree to this as well. Which is why I do not see the need to remove an entire dimension of gameplay.
But the imbalance which others are complaining and hence asking for them to be banned from PvP is the fact that these devices need to be purchased or farmed and certainly the fact of having them and not having them is definitely going to cause a significant gap between toons. In other words, the reluctance to farm/pay to obtain these devices requires others who had put in the effort to be brought down to their status in PvP which my point is if that has to be so, then should we not remove gears, mods and anything which can cause a variance.
Champions Online was never known for being a casual-friendly game anyway.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
No clue if this is your first mmo ever... but p2w is common, QQ about p2w is common. In a game with real pvp (pk) open world style, the criers can be punished in game by killing them on sight. This sadly does not work in co... yet.
Sarcasm aside, if you pvp without devices you are not a pro due to the fact that you are
lacking either some sort of survivability or maybe a heal, or even some sort of debuff.
If you compete at the horse race, do you bring a saddle along or not? If you do not happen to own a saddle, would you consider buying one before even trying to attempt in competing with the other Jockeys? Most likely, yes.
Instead of posting massive Wot's on the forum, you could actually farm Globals, mods, etc.
In the end dedication is all you need, dedication and an actual goal to accomplish.
In your case the goal would be getting devices. It does not happen over night, if you are unwilling to spend money on it, but not impossible to farm ingame at all, it just takes some time.
Anything is possible, if only you believe in it.
Before Legacy Devices came around, we just had Bloodmoon devices and whatever we cobbled together from pre-On Alert, and old devices you actually had to equip were actually kinda crippling.
Now the new, terrible PvP metagame is DEVICES DEVICES DEVICES. The nice thing about CO PvP to me was that you didn't really HAVE to farm for days to have a fighting chance. Just go in there with a good build, decent gear and you're set. Before On Alert you could even skip on farming Freon if you were pretty good at the game, and before devices we were doing fine with just 1 energy builder, 1 passive and 12 power picks.
tl; dr BACK IN MY DAY
Devices were not properly implemented with any regards to balance. It's no wonder that the new PvP metagame latched onto them.
Not true, even before the legacy kits got released, the BM devices made the difference.
Start farming, guys.