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Your thoughts on banning devices from PvP
nepht
Posts: 6,898 Arc User
Last night some of my crew had a heated discussion on the banning of all devices from PvP zones.
Some were for some were against. So ima just fling this in to see what you guys think.
Some were for some were against. So ima just fling this in to see what you guys think.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
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Legacy devices have put us in a situation, but making sweeping changes like bans is a dangerous thing to do.
Instead, let's make devices that are extremely useful in PvP and somewhat useful in PvE.
Examples:
Harmon Experimental Truesight Visor
Device
Unique(1) (set to 1 to control frequency of use in matches and encourage rationing)
Effect: Toggle 2min. Drastically increases stealth perception. Lowers equilibrium to 0.
Prototype Narcola Energy Drink
Device
Unique(6)
Maintain 1s
Effect: Deals breakfree damage to holds. After full maintain, slightly increases movement speed and grants minor haste for 12 seconds. After 30 seconds, you gain Crash debuff and become disoriented.
Here's my personal idea:
Heals
Travel Power Devices (Roin'esh, Vesperine Cloak, etc.)
Terak Static Core
Thunderbolt Wand
Primus Spark Shield (it's able to set off Ionic Reverb, so I'm listing it)
Echo's Stick
Void Possession
Shadow Pact
Both Destroid Surge devices
Mega Destroid Stomp
ALL the Nighthawk Devices
ALL the Power Armor Devices
Ice Grenades
...can't remember the name, but the grenades that prevent power usage for a time
These are all the ones off the top of my head.. when I think of more I'll follow up
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I think part of the problem is inconsistency by the devs in treating devices.
Take the blood moon devices as an example. They have a shared cooldown amongst devices that are the same. You can have 5 nimbuses but can only use one every x amount of time. With the Legacy devices, you can spam as many as you have. Therein lies the problem. Why did they add a shared cool down on the Blood moon devices?
Now add to that Int revitalize. lulz
@Scrizz :biggrin:
For a potentially unlimited amount of time actually, a large increase on the cooldowns and if possible a share between the same devices would be welcome. I don't mind them much on some way because some of them can be handy or do fancy effects, one of my toons collects them all, but the way they're being used, it's meh.
Or unlimited energy.
Sure Legacy Devices are very strong, but they can at least be countered or have their damage mitigated. The process of acquiring these devices is no different than that of getting Legion Gear - should that be banned as well? The devices are even more accessible than the best Legion pieces...and as long as accessibility is not an issue then the criteria for a ban would have to be for them to make major game mechanics pointless.
Vixy thinks that the only device which meets this criteria is Eruption - but it does this in pve as well, so the real solution is not a ban but a change to its buff.
Immunity to damage is just too ridiculous - in pvp and in pve...Vixy would not mind if Eruptions had their effects altered to provide a defensive buff instead of full immunity.
Totally agreed. This stems from the fact that no one seems to be looking at devices in a holistic fashion. Changes that are made are mostly ad-hoc reactions to random outcries on the forums that lack context, testing, etc.
If only someone at Cryptic played the game enough to be able take feedback from players in context...so that they would not have to bounce back and forth between listening to players too much vs completely ignoring them.
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The glaring inconsistency is the problem, not the devices themselves. Also the stacking issue ( lol pheromones ) IMO seems like an oversight, but I doubt any of these devices will get looked at/fixed/etc but meh, devices are a good thing, they add variety and are fun to use.
Because of this fact, all the "pro" pvpers will be against it, because the "pros" don't want balance, they want to win and they don't really care what effect that has in the long run.
The good news is that Cryptic is on your side "pros"; they only want you to be queing for hero games, which is why the devices will stay. Needing to grind out thousands of <insert resource here> is probably the best deterrent to pvp ever implemented.
And I agree with this plan. If they're not going to fix pvp, they may as well make it as unpalatable as possible to all but the most desperate.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Honor system? No one will listen.
Cryptic would probably screw something up if they wanted to fix it.
ALL devices should be disabled in PvP. All of them.
Why?
Because then the determining factors are your combat skill, your skill with designing & using a build, your timing & situational awareness, and gear (I doubt gear could be disabled so it'd have to stay in).
Having devices makes the gap between have's and have-not's excessively wide. Not many people can afford 6 Teleiosaurus pheromones, Necrullitic Elixirs, permanent Backup devices, Omicron Strength, and Ice Grenades. Every time new stuff comes out it'll have to be judged as ok or not, and who'd judge what's ok?
I know a PvP player who has been around since closed beta who can kick my **** sometimes without any gear or devices... And I'm like "what?! how is it possible?"
His principle is that is you need to rely on using devices, then you're using a crutch and are really good.
In other words if you're a good PvP player with a lot of experience with builds, you can on-the-fly analyze somebody's build to know their weaknesses and use that to your advantage. Kind of like beating a ranged player that runs a lot with a melee one, it's a more impressive victory.
Excuse me Brou, but this is a bloody terrible idea...
Bad Brou, bad dog!
I tease but in all seriousness this bad idea needs to be taken out back and shot, quickly.
Do I really need to spell it out from history just how badly Cryptic would screw this up? Recent history even? They can't even do simple **** these days, like do an update where all Legacy stuff disappears from the Drifter store and we hear the soonest a fix will come around is in two weeks! Cryptic is incompetent and understaffed, Perfect World would get greedy and create intentionally OP devices to make a quick buck. Only bad things can come from this, MARK MY WORDS!
A prime example of what I'm talking about right there!
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Some are unfeasibly expensive to most players. There are very few people who could afford the time, or justify the money expenditure you have invested in your devices Vixy.
It makes PvP more about who spent more, than who's got the more optimal build or more experience. This is known as pay-to-win, and it reduces interest in PvP for the casual player.
Many of you complain how small PvP is now, that's partly because of a lack of rewards, but also because even an idiot would realize going into a gunfight with a celery stick is mostly likely a battle they can't win. When people start feeling like it's futile they give up and look to other games that don't require spending a few hundred dollars to get their dose of PvP combat.
That's what at the heart of the issue.
On one hand, you cannot have competitive PvP effectively in any game without a larger "casual" base PvP population. Casual gamers are not going to be interested in spending huge sums of money to PvP on an even playing field (even if it's just perceived disadvantage), not with a competitive gaming market that can off them the same fun for cheaper (i.e.: TF2, DCUO, CoD:MW, Halo 4, Halo Reach, etc.)
On the other hand people who invested a lot of time and money into learning the mechanics, getting superior gear, and getting the best devices money can by are frustrated at the small size of competition to play against and that they have spent so much to make it to the top -- they would be LIVIDLY ANGRY if any of their hard-earned stuff got nerfed. And yes, disabling devices in PvP would be an indirect nerf to anyone who bought devices SPECIFICALLY with PvP as one of the reasons for the purchase.
So you see? It's not a black & white issue Vixy
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
This pretty much sums up why folks shouldn't expect a future for pvp in this game. Better to squeeze the few remaining hardcore pvpers for all you can until they eventually fall off, instead of risking your entire population by drawing them into the toxic environment that is co pvp.
The cold war continues, and the gun runners are the only ones who are gonna win in the end. Checkmate!
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Like i've said before, try to play other f2p games with this "gibe itens free plis" attitude/mentality. In fact if you do not spend any money on the game, you cannot expect to be on par, with somebody who spent something - that is common sense. Perfect world for example, a lvl 100 with +3 gears will never be able to beat somebody of the same lvl with +12 gear.
I do agree with the device's shared cooldown part. The Teleiosaurus pheromones should have a shared cd. Not because it is anything overpowered but the massive amount of pets is pretty discuraging to melee players. All the pets do is taking up space and pushing melee users around until they are out of range and cannot dps anymore (especially during events/ bossfights).
cu
Target Boss and press [f] key will help you.
Each Pheromones were sold like 8k-10kG in AH and just imagine multiple equippers are now having in their Shared Account Bank.
Bunch of lizards will be just replaced into other type of pets device and nothing change.
I had terrible time by Buckups over nerf so this time I brought Backups! xD
Now, as it most likely has been pointed out the Teleiosaurus Pheremones, have caused an issue for some players.
However, for those of us who do not PvP, the Device is merely for flavour or theme or pure fun. For example my "tech pet" support build only has two real tech pets, muni and drone bots. I have 3 pheremones and a nightmare generator to assist me in battle, as an RPer, I explain it in different ways.
I'd hate to see another aspect of the game nerfed for PvP. I have seen the trend of complaints = massive nerf which was uncalled for and not what anyone wanted.
I know certain people who have spent LOADS OF G on getting these devices much like the back up devices from the Mega D event. If as a result the pheremones share a CD or can only be activated one at a time and don't stack, needless to say I will be extremely put out and angered.
Another device is Eruption, now..I've used it and its ok, but the immunity can be bypassed by certain foes which is ok, but thankfully they don't appear in PvP xD.
I am of the opinion that all Devices should be allowed, but perhaps...devices like Eruption should have come with a pentalty? So Eruption for the time to which you are immune to damage you have *something* happen to you which stops you from doing *something*
I think what needs to be achieved is perhaps "in PvP Zone" changes to Devices which are temporary.
Besides, these legacy devices were available in game before hand and just count as extra powers IMO.
For example, my telepath currently has every single PSI related device, Psionic Surge, Psionic Echoes etc and because she has no powers (waiting for the ever coming telepathy powers to hit LIVE) I rely on them to do damage for missions which I seldom carry out.
So to sum up, I love devices, I think they are nice added features to have, as long as Cryptic continue to keep the devices the way they were before accidental removal and don't inflict any penalty, people will continue to buy keys and they will make moneh.
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We just didn't notice, but there are some ppl with multi-Eruption.
Eruption must need single target in 50 ft range to activate and Hold, Sleep, Stun, Knock works so it's hard to make perma-Eruption even someone have 5 Eruption equipped. It wasn't so good as we imagine.
Yes, I've tested it by myself already. xD
PVPers have to buy the best gear anyways getting the best devices is just another layer on top of that.
edit: eruption is really OP however with revitalize/int spec tree 3 of them make a person unkillable.
Very true, but this is hardly a black & white topic. It actually made me think, some of the most fun I've had with PvE is build testing, where we can continuously mess around with different builds. Using devices is kind of a crutch *shrug*
There are some devices that are definitely broken -- the energy surge, backup, and eruption are some good examples of that.
Who's to say what's judged as an ok device and what's not? Maybe you'd rather fight with a become device or vehicle? Maybe Heroic Might shouldn't be restricted and people can pay to have a +33% boost over their competition.
I feel you should either restrict all devices, or none at all. It's this halfway crap that's annoying to me, more annoying that people "crying nerf" anyways.
It's this... "well we don't like X, Y, and Z but even though W is overpowered compared to others and costs 10000g or more, it's ok because it's not {insert BS excuse here}" kind of thing. Get my point?
Besides I thought the PvP community was already small. Do y'all really want to make it smaller? All two dozen people in the game who have everything maxed out with the best devices, you'll be fighting the same people an aweful lot.
PvP just isn't he same as PvE. Even if their's negligible difference (i.e.: between Heroic and Legion gear), it's still going to result in "you only won because you have better equipment" sort of feelings.
What crosses the line?
Consolidate the currencies! (Please!)
Does your Champion have a theme song? (share it!)
Got a funny in-game screenshot? (share it!)
Please fix the Overdrive energy unlock! (Should help promote thematic build diversity!)
Yeah. I know. I said so. And before you did. What's with the full frontal penetration?
Vixy can play this game too you know....let's see:
1. So it's not a black and white issue yet you take a very "black and white" stance on it?
Are you saying that because devices in PvP is a complex issue we should smash it with the ban hammer?
2. Oh wait, here are your reasons for banning devices...
When was the last time you saw someone running 6 pheremones in PvP? That is far from optimal in the current PvP environment...if it was then Vixy would happily run it.
Also, in case you did not know, permanent Backup devices do not work in PvP zones. As such they have no impact on any kind of gap.
Omicrons cost between 300-500G on the AH...less than one decent mod. No impact on the gap there either.
Necrull's and Ice Grenades cost 2k to 5k...sure. But that is definitely attainable and their prevalence in PvP speaks to their accessibility.
3. Does your skillful pvp friend think Legion Gear is a crutch? If not then what is the difference between paying for that and paying for devices? Especially since the best Legion Gear + mods are more expensive.
This is a terrible analogy. The difference between Heroic and Legion Gear is far from negligible. Both in PvE and in PvP.
Devices have nothing to do with those feelings. The last thing that most people want to do is admit that they lost due to their own inadequacies whether that be build, gear, skill, whatever.
The act of placing blame instead of admitting fault is not a result of device use. It's much older than that.
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Agreed. If the issue we are solving for is one of imbalance then accessibility is a good approach.
Also agreed that Eruption, as it stands, is ridiculous....but let us repeat again that it is also just as ridiculous in PvE.
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It's killable. Eruption can't be activate while hold or stun and need target in 50ft range. And they take most of thier time to keep Eruptioning so not so good in DPS.
I tested myself already. Not sure in duel cause I dn't do Duel so much.
(Well, my 5 Eruption build was killed by Vixy in second at duel. xD)
Well, I'm tired of seeing everyone using same AoPM-ER build toons in B.A.S.H. Devices gives at least variations.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
We are ennemies now!
COME AT ME BRO \o/ ( readies nimbus and archers mem )
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
I agree with Kaizerin that the introduction of cooldown reduction and especially revitalise has caused some imbalance. However to ban devices, to implement shared cooldowns or to nerf revitalise etc are just plain frustrating. Do I enjoy my godhood? Yes always. I love to build tanks especially supertanks which are as unkillable as possible. I have gone through rounds after rounds of regearing, respeccing etc because of post-release changes. I spend lots of effort farming etc to gear up my toons; I spend cash for zen to get gear as well; I aim to push my mods to R9, legion gear, full devices etc. But with every change, my efforts get flushed down the drain. I think this sentiment is shared by Jewel as well.
Kaizerin, you mentioned in another post if I did not remember wrongly that you mentioned the devices are not broken and are functioning as they are supposed to (having talked to a dev). I understand that you did not agree but that was how it has been released. A post-release nerf is just going to be unfair for people who have spent time, effort and money.
it's always been that way with co
nobody looks after pvp
because it would take
too much time
and nobody loves us
pvp people
because we are all
sarcastic a-holes
tripping over our ego's
who would want
to make us happy?
just my 2 cents.
@sno
Obvious troll is obvious
What with shadowstrike, pellets, boomerang throw, strafing run and possibly the mental set update (which I read is going to hit like a truck). The recent revision to 2GM etc. Perhaps I am jaded in a different manner. For me, I have lost hope of any form of balance coming out of it all. Remember, we have seen nerfs to various powers on many occasions and has that led to an improvement in balance? Either something new comes along or something old now replaces that which has been nerfed.
I say, forget about trying to balance (I have not been around that long just about 2 years but I have never seen this balance) and move on with our lives. Let the devs spend their time churning out bug free content.
Given that you have been in game for much longer, I guess your dates should be more or less accurate. Given the turnover of devs I guess the new staff will not have the full knowledge and picture of the entire system and to start trying to do any form of balance becomes frustatingly futile. In fact, I think on-alert actually widen the disparity between old vs new/revised power sets.
I totally respect your stand that power balance is the most important aspect of a game to you.
For my stand, because of the incredibly diverse combination available due to the freeform system, there will always be mined-maxed players and self-gimped players in any game and a balance is practically impossible. A much more important aspect of the game for me will be content for players. I truly wish to see the foundry and a self generating mechanism for content variation. Once something like that could be put in place, the devs can then focus their attention on bug fixes and balance.
The game still goes on with or without the balance, PvPers (since this is on the PvP thread) will either persist to hold on to their old builds or copy whichever is the new successful one. However the insufficient content has caused some vets to leave the game and if this persist, more will follow. Let's have shinies for transitional players and more end-game content for the stayers.
I know most people who do real PvP don't consider (so I have heard) dueling to be a proper PvP or something, I will say this anyway. I don't use Devices in combat with other players unless they do, (Pheremones is a different issue, its on my pet master as a pet and is widely recognised as a pet rather than a device so I do use it, to make up for the lack of decent tech pets I have.)
Regarding Eruption...I have one on my level 40 "tough toon" Black Diamond, for theme only. I don't use it in duels unless other party starts using devices, even then I'm too focused on trying to hit them rather than using an eruption device xD.
Since all of my characters are theme built, Devices, in my opinion, merely enhance the theme of the character, enabling me to do things which normally I wouldnt be able to do.
I see the issue in PvP, now that I have seen that eruption stacks. Most players who are built for PvP or survival can survive a pet/dino onslaught, ice nades etc. But the total immunity stacking is a cheap way to win IMO, besides it doesnt even last that long anyway (at least for me). Then again in 10 secs PvP wise someone could have wiped out half or even more than half of my character roster xD.
I say have revitalise not work on Devices when in PvP zones or in duels, in addition to this perhaps stacking multiple eruptions could cause a CD on the other ones? Similar to how Amazing Grace procs a CD on all and any active defensives when activated?
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I seriously doubt it will even hit like a flower petal by the time they get round to it, the version I have on the PTS is the version which is on par with the damage which can be put out by other powersets, which I think is a good thing. But knowing how Telepathy has been treated so far and its love affair with the Nerf Nuke, I can only now predict the worst for the new powers, either they'll all be released and the DoT's only work on henchmen to Master Villain which means its useless or the control aspects just dont work on anything and tada you have another lifeless addition to Telepathy.
I don't -want- to loose hope and think like that, but even TT said it was backburnered, so clearly I will have to continue waiting to play my main char...its almost been half a year since I last was able to play her Q_Q (Feb will make it half a year).
I think that as a whole new powers will just simply outshine the others more and more as CO tries to get more powerful.
Balance is needed but with the amount of OP infernal and MA around thats difficult to attain.
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If they cannot take 2 minutes to fix something as simple as Energy Surge or as obvious as Imbue not providing a breakfree, then believing that the current dev team is capable of addressing something so sweeping and complex as the balance of powers in CO in a competent manner is just wishful thinking.
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This might seem true at first, since it applies to other games, but the truth is anyone can fight players who have legion gear and hold his own without it. It all depends on what either of you do when you play. That kind of thing doesn't really apply to Champions Online anymore. Power can't necessarily be "bought" with the exception of freeform (but not necessarily). There is no win button in Champions.
Ahh now your examples are making it easier to see where you are coming from. There are indeed underperforming ADs, iniquity if I am not wrong is bugged or broken right, not sure about this since I don't use it. There are other powers of course which do not perform up to par like gigabolt etc. However sometimes the imbalance results because of the freeform system. In their respective archetype, this disparity may or may not exist in this extent.
I am just wondering if we should then buff the underperforming ones or nerf the stronger ones. I know you have also mentioned that the game is too easy. I still think they need to do greater challenge via game mechanics rather than more HP or harder punch. Will be more fun to handle rather than dragging on a fight.
There is a huge different between finding synergies between different powers, and making use of "secret bugs" - i.e. exploits & cheating. The truth is that the game has switched to focus on what generates revenue in the short term, instead of retaining the traditional long-term players who gravitate towards end-game lairs/raids.
As far as PvP in general goes, the devs could make a concerted effort to do things like impose PvP-only caps & restrictions on things like stacking different forms of mitigation, perhaps putting tighter controls on perception vs stealth or knocks vs knock resistance, etc.
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It doesnt hit or heal like anything anymore because its not there and from what I have heard so far it wont be there for a looong time.
If it hits so hard and there are other powersets out there which it -can- hit as hard as but takes 3 times if not 10 times the amount of time to deal such damage, why not simply tone down the other powersets then look at toning down the telepathic damage.
Now, with regard to where I am basing this nerf to telepathy on is found >>here<<
For even more foundation for this post please refer to >>here<< and >>here<<
I am not suprised you picked up on this, telepathy isnt a set most people focus on anyway so these nerfs were bound to be missed by the majority of people.
Enjoy.
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[#]WeNeedHeroicFashion - <Aura Suggestions> - <CO Wiki (WIP)> - <Crowd Control Discussion> - <Telepathy in Champions Online> - How to review The Force Power Set - Join the Champions Online: On Alert Discord!
I am @RavenForce in game
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I'm not sure about 'enjoyment' part, some of them belive they have a mission, which is to destroy everyone that isn't affiliated with <insert SG>.
Others get to stay in this game for PvP because it's one of the few games where you don't need to know much to have a large impact, so they remain in here thinking that they reached the Holy Grail and that everyone will speak of them for generations to come.
There should never be anything that makes it easier for "oldbies" to win. The player with the best strategy should always win. It should always be possible with powers; it shouldn't require rare/unavailable/secret devices. Hoarding knowledge is just elitism. You don't want to give nukes to cavemen either. Balance is the key here.
If the "initiated" want to continue to win, then they should spend those 1000+ hours seeking advanced knowledge and wisdom; they shouldn't feel the need to rely on cheap gimmicks to win. Seniority doesn't mean anything because even new players can learn the game and do all the math and beat a lot of good players. They shouldn't be penalized just because they didn't play, or because they didn't know this game existed. It's just that lately none of the newer players are doing this.
The purpose of farming those devices is so that you can enjoy using them, not to make you inherently superior to other players.
Oh I would prefer it your way, of course, I'm just not holding my breath for the devs to do anything. I still have fun with it, although there are many ways it could be better.
The observation is beyond me, and beyond just this game. Broadly speaking, humans like their competitive activities to have depth, meaning the capacity for continual improvement.
At this point the devs have eliminated most of the tactics from CO PvP. Energy doesn't matter, and cooldowns are so short that they hardly matter either (i.e. popping masterful dodge as soon as it's up is the best course of action, most of the time). Stronghold apocalypse is by far the most tactical PvP scenario, and that is where the new players lag most behind the ones with more experience. My SG always prefers to queue for SH, immune turrets or not, the problem is that our opponents - who don't actually want a contest of skill, but rather a more shallow contest that gives them better odds - don't want to queue for SH.
I did enjoy it, perhaps my most favorite map and memory was dueling Sapphire in Stronghold with my PFF build, that was very fun.
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Only competative HG is BASH and that's only because 4 SG's are farming each other. Even those numbers have dwindled down. SH and others only pop on the odd occasion we plan it in copvp chat, which is the sad state of affairs.