Backup devices don't work in PvP zones - including SH.
The amount of cd redux that one can get on Palliate makes taking down the bosses without "insane" dps impossible. So SH could potentially be competitive, however the bigger issues plaguing it have nothing to do with powers or devices.
Getting kicked due to how auto-teaming interacts with a premade on a team map is, by itself, enough to kill any hope of a regularly popping q.
This is somewhat balanced by the insane levels of healing, in addition to palliate as vixy mentioned, dedicated healers can pull 8k healing per second from powers like iniquity. I've been in recent matches that have stalemated.
There's nothing tactical about running up to turrets/players/NPCs and killing them.
The tactics lie in the decisions about whether to defend or go on the attack e.g. how many players to have on the left, the right, and in the two bases.
In dueling and bash it's just about performing an optimal rotation of powers (which is not skill, but only an execution tax to play the game that lies beneath). Why don't you give some examples of tactical decisions in bash/duels that don't have an obviously optimal solution.
[posted from my old laptop that can't run CO :-( ]
I'm working on it! I ordered a new desktop, it should ship in another 2 weeks and hopefully get to me about a week after that. I'm using this time to stock up on work and sleep so that I'll have more time for CO when I get back.
How come I remember that using devices in pvp was lame? They were banned in every pvp event I attended to. And now it's okay? (In some of those events, you had to pick one power for your opponent to remove in the duel, that was a guessing game mostly. And no, not attack powers/eb or something like that)
How come I remember that using devices in pvp was lame? They were banned in every pvp event I attended to. And now it's okay? (In some of those events, you had to pick one power for your opponent to remove in the duel, that was a guessing game mostly. And no, not attack powers/eb or something like that)
And yeah I said PVP EVENT. Holy moly.
Events usually are set up with rules. In duels, unless discussed prior to the fighr, they can easily be used. A trained eye can spot the use of devices in a duel as well. In Hero Games, all is fair in love and war.
Devices are dumb. If you have to use devices to pull off a win, your base build probably sucks.
If a person can't beat me using 14 power picks and 2 travel powers, then that's on them. If they resort to using devices, they're using a crutch. If I STILL beat them while they're using their crutch, then that's pathetic.
Devices are dumb. If you have to use devices to pull off a win, your base build probably sucks.
If a person can't beat me using 14 power picks and 2 travel powers, then that's on them. If they resort to using devices, they're using a crutch. If I STILL beat them while they're using their crutch, then that's pathetic.
But what about ATs?
AWWWW CHAMPIONS UNIVERSE! DON'T YOU DARE. BE SOUR. CLAP FOR YOUR NIGHTMARE AND FEEEEEEEEEEEL THE POWAAAAAAH!
Devices are dumb. If you have to use devices to pull off a win, your base build probably sucks.
If a person can't beat me using 14 power picks and 2 travel powers, then that's on them. If they resort to using devices, they're using a crutch. If I STILL beat them while they're using their crutch, then that's pathetic.
This is all fine and good, but it's also just your opinion. Devices are available to everyone, and add another perspective to PvP as a whole. For us that are terribly bored with CO PvE & PvP, it gives us just one more thing to think about/obtain/incorporate into our builds.
You see them as a crutch. I see them as another way to maximize my powerset. Do I really need a NTTG applier when I can use devices that remove flight and travel powers? Extra points to spend elsewhere. Do I need a knock power when I have a device that knocks? Well, yea, cuz knocks are fun to use. But surely you get my point.
Yeah, I get ya. If both parties agree that devices are A-OK and share that philosophy (or they're just allowing devices for funsies) then that's fine. Hell, I even picked up Omicron Induced Strength for my Invincible because they don't have any NttG moves, period. :S
But if I'm just having a casual duel with two not-min-maxed characters (like I often used to do with a few friends of mine) and my opponent suddenly whips out a NPG, Necrulitic Elixir, Ice Grenades and Omicron Induced Strength without warning... well, it's on.
This is all fine and good, but it's also just your opinion. Devices are available to everyone, and add another perspective to PvP as a whole. For us that are terribly bored with CO PvE & PvP, it gives us just one more thing to think about/obtain/incorporate into our builds.
You see them as a crutch. I see them as another way to maximize my powerset. Do I really need a NTTG applier when I can use devices that remove flight and travel powers? Extra points to spend elsewhere. Do I need a knock power when I have a device that knocks? Well, yea, cuz knocks are fun to use. But surely you get my point.
I agree wholeheartedly here with you. Devices adds another dimension to the gameplay. Just like legion gear vs heroic gear. The idea of a balance fight/duel does not exist in CO period. Just use whatever you can get your hands on and fight. If we want to talk about balanced fight, then everyone need to have the same set of powers, gears, mods, devices. Then assuming not network lag, and similar bandwidth speed, the fight becomes one of who smashes button faster, who has more situational awareness and combat strategy. That will be a totally balanced fight. Right now, the diversity in powers, skills, gear, devices simply makes it impossible for such balance. Assuming 1 player defeats another and both did not use devices, does that mean player A is the better PvPer? We know for a certain range currently has a much better edge than melee toons. Could player A be using legion gear with R7 mods while player B only has heroic gear with R5 mods? Could it be possible that player A is using the recently pick-of-the-crop dps 2GM while player B is using dragon claw? Now does it seem wrong for player B to use a device to even out the fight? There are just way too many presumptions.
Why not just let players use whatever is available in game to win if they want to? If you can't beat them, then review your toon and modify it with a counter. Still cannot do it? Then use what they use but do it better than them. Does that not show the "skill" of the player (assuming of course the other person does not then start to QQ about lag)?
I think some vets need to change their mindset to be able to accept new powers and new additions to the game and be able to adapt, incorporate them into their builds. A reluctance to move forward with the time and changes simply means getting left behind.
There seems to be this notion that winning must require skill. This runs up directly against the point of making a better build.
The best builds minimize the amount of skill it takes to win.
Agreed that devices have a similar effect, but given their availability...well you snooze, you lose.
It seems that the ones who blame their losses on device use are those that are in need of a crutch. Much easier to moan and complain than spend 2-3k G to get what you need to compete.
The funniest complaints are the ones where the people who lose and die follow up with tells about how you are a noob and lack skills without realizing that they are just insulting themselves. After all, if it takes no skill to kill them then whose fault is that?
Yeah thats true if you dont go up against PvP FF. I dont think my new PvP toon Mr Annoiyewmuch has even been SCRATCHED by an AT in duels
People dont AT PvP because they dont want steamrolled.
People don't AT-pvp because it's a greater challenge; no one likes to struggle. Even Mc Luv's AT (Mars) did really well against pvp FFs. Haven't really seen @Scrizz's AT in action since he went from Behemoth to Dev. I still remember @Mahoff's Soldier AT - he was really good with it. Also, I enjoy watching ATs go at it more than FFs.
There seems to be this notion that winning must require skill. This runs up directly against the point of making a better build.
The best builds minimize the amount of skill it takes to win.
Agreed that devices have a similar effect, but given their availability...well you snooze, you lose.
It seems that the ones who blame their losses on device use are those that are in need of a crutch. Much easier to moan and complain than spend 2-3k G to get what you need to compete.
The funniest complaints are the ones where the people who lose and die follow up with tells about how you are a noob and lack skills without realizing that they are just insulting themselves. After all, if it takes no skill to kill them then whose fault is that?
Signed, signed and signed. There is a need to recognize that part of the PvP element also involve coming up with a better build and putting that build to good use. Devices, mods and gears are now all part of what we call a build. Rather than just spend time duelling in ren cen ONLY, spend some time doing PvE stuff to farm gears, mods and devices. Do not stagnate while the world moves on. Use the things you get from PvE to better your PvP build. I come across way too many PvPers who needs to borrow G in order to retcon instead of farming for it first.
People dont AT PvP because they dont want steamrolled.
Really depends, some AT's really hold their ground, a well build Devastator is stronger than anything, then Cursed/Unleashed, then Void. Glacier tends to be underrated aswell depending of the playstyle.
And noone even paid attention to the Invincible: AT Imbued Chest Beam, Reconstruction Circuits healing, Invul coupled with an Unbreakable which the cooldowns are reduced through Revitalize and that can appear again due to the Protector specs. It's almost close in scheme to what people run in defensive options these days.
[...]
Agreed that devices have a similar effect, but given their availability...well you snooze, you lose.
[...]
This reminds me of my short time playing a very pay2win robot fighting mmo. Basically, the company would come out with new robots about once every 2 months which you had to gamble for in a Gachapon. These robots were drastically more powerful than the robots available previously, and severely outmatched the basic starting robots you had access to for free.
By the time I had joined, it was already generally understood that if you used the free robots, you could expect to get utterly destroyed by players who were using the pay-for robots. It was also generally understood that if you did not do what you had to do every two months to buy the new robots, that you were basically in for a similar fate at the hands of every player who got the new stuff.
There was one point, somewhere around christmas, where they came out with some REALLY powerful robots, that were only available for a limited time, two robots that since then haven't been matched in power. The folks who jumped in and really gambled like crazy to get those limited time robots continue to enjoy their advantage even to this day, and there are many players who are essentially hooked in on the idea that some day there might be another limited time offer on those robots, or something even better.
Some folks, like myself, saw this for the marketing ploy it was. Others, generally those who were winning due to their investment, simply said "Hey, you snooze you lose...".
This game pretty much defines power creep and pay to win.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
This reminds me of my short time playing a very pay2win robot fighting mmo. Basically, the company would come out with new robots about once every 2 months which you had to gamble for in a Gachapon. These robots were drastically more powerful than the robots available previously, and severely outmatched the basic starting robots you had access to for free.
By the time I had joined, it was already generally understood that if you used the free robots, you could expect to get utterly destroyed by players who were using the pay-for robots. It was also generally understood that if you did not do what you had to do every two months to buy the new robots, that you were basically in for a similar fate at the hands of every player who got the new stuff.
There was one point, somewhere around christmas, where they came out with some REALLY powerful robots, that were only available for a limited time, two robots that since then haven't been matched in power. The folks who jumped in and really gambled like crazy to get those limited time robots continue to enjoy their advantage even to this day, and there are many players who are essentially hooked in on the idea that some day there might be another limited time offer on those robots, or something even better.
Some folks, like myself, saw this for the marketing ploy it was. Others, generally those who were winning due to their investment, simply said "Hey, you snooze you lose...".
This game pretty much defines power creep and pay to win.
I'll have to disagree with ya, Smoochychan. While whatever game that was did literally require the expenditure of real money to get the latest and greatest to "win," the difference with CO's devices is that they require farming, not cash. That's a big difference. Sure you can subscribe monthly for benefits setting a Gold member apart from a f2player, but that is expected from a plethora of mmorpg's. What sets CO apart is that -all- Gold members have access to the same powers and builds (if they are smart enough to build well.)
If you're argument is that CO is pay to win, it fails. Additionally, farming devices is part of the PvE aspect of the game moreso than anything to do with winning. Take that away and the majority of CO's population loses a major form of economy/trade. CO Devs know better than to mess up their PvE experience, regardless of their blatant refusal to do anything for the PvP aspect of their game.
I wasn't talking about CO. I thought that was pretty clear...
Oh, my bad. You weren't giving specifics and perhaps I misread your final sentence to mean CO. If you weren't making the comparison, why bring up some other game at all?
Oh, my bad. You weren't giving specifics and perhaps I misread your final sentence to mean CO. If you weren't making the comparison, why bring up some other game at all?
Limited time offers, and long grinds for power that are made much shorter by paying cash. Everything starts small and innocent looking. When you build it slowly, the players barely even notice what's happening.
But hey, CO will never become that kind of game, right? I'm sure nobody ever said that about going F2P or lockboxes... and it's not as if the population here is at all receptive to that sort of thing, certainly not entire super groups who would jump on it at the first opportunity.
CO does not define Pay2Win or power creep... but then there's the whole pw issue, and so far all their little tests have been giving green lights.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Limited time offers, and long grinds for power that are made much shorter by paying cash. Everything starts small and innocent looking. When you build it slowly, the players barely even notice what's happening.
But hey, CO will never become that kind of game, right? I'm sure nobody ever said that about going F2P or lockboxes... and it's not as if the population here is at all receptive to that sort of thing, certainly not entire super groups who would jump on it at the first opportunity.
CO does not define Pay2Win or power creep... but then there's the whole pw issue, and so far all their little tests have been giving green lights.
P2W happens to be financing all those F2P. PWE has a business model which happens to work and has bought over a company whose model did not.
There are genuine F2P games like those on FB. Just ignore the occasional ads and have fun .
This reminds me of my short time playing a very pay2win robot fighting mmo....
Some folks, like myself, saw this for the marketing ploy it was. Others, generally those who were winning due to their investment, simply said "Hey, you snooze you lose...".
This game pretty much defines power creep and pay to win.
They were right. Snoozing and losing are not limited to pay2win or even games in general. It comes up a lot in everyday life - often in a competitive context.
But in terms of devices, the difference between 0 globals and 3-4k globals is a matter of farming for 3-4 days. So that is really what all the fuss is about in this thread at the end of the day.
I am sure that you understand the asymmetry in the argument of "you either have to pay2win or farm2win" when the second option does not require much effort.
Edit: just want to clarify that the argument above is being made purely in the case of devices. When it comes to the best Legion Gear, Vixy completely agrees that the difference between the haves and have nots is very large.
They were right. Snoozing and losing are not limited to pay2win or even games in general. It comes up a lot in everyday life - often in a competitive context.
But in terms of devices, the difference between 0 globals and 3-4k globals is a matter of farming for 3-4 days. So that is really what all the fuss is about in this thread at the end of the day.
I am sure that you understand the asymmetry in the argument of "you either have to pay2win or farm2win" when the second option does not require much effort.
Sometimes, some people prefer to spend their time trolling forums rather than farming in game.
But, in ZA and Duels, no ban there, because in these two instances youre capable of setting your own rules by how/who you want to duel/play for fun. ZA has never been a MegaSerious pvp type due to its fun PvE like attributes.
That i feel, is a fair balance. Serious duelers have bash and arenas fighting BUILD TO BUILD, whilst casual/fun lovers will duel or go ZA and DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
But, in ZA and Duels, no ban there, because in these two instances youre capable of setting your own rules by how/who you want to duel/play for fun. ZA has never been a MegaSerious pvp type due to its fun PvE like attributes.
That i feel, is a fair balance. Serious duelers have bash and arenas fighting BUILD TO BUILD, whilst casual/fun lovers will duel or go ZA and DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
Both sides are happy.
Beg to differ here, because that argument revolves around what is defined as a build. In your definition it seems, a build will consist of gears, mods and powers. However, why not include devices into that list?
As I pointed out earlier, even if we take the devices out of the equation, there will still be disparity of players with legion gear and R7 mods versus players with just heroic or even mercenary gear with r4 to r5 mods. So then, should we nullify the effects of gears and mods during duels and HG? This will leave behind superstats, spec tree skills, powers and talent choices and how well you can press a keyboard.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth and I do not want to spiral down the track of debating what should or should not constitute a build or how a build was defined 3 years ago when the game started because this is how the game is as of now.
I thought we need devices esp. in SH today and the reason is...
It was like "Healer in foe and we have none. It's Game over." before but its changed.
I like this new game.
Im saying give some pvp modes no limits, and some a device ban because then people can make their own choice, rather than have no choice and have to come to the forum and create a thread like this
Im saying give some pvp modes no limits, and some a device ban because then people can make their own choice, rather than have no choice and have to come to the forum and create a thread like this
Hmm but what if players want to do a devices-included bash? I get what you are saying perhaps then an option to set a HG with either device or no device but given the attention and love which pvp is getting I doubt that will ever happen. It will be like the different tiers of pvp and then will it stop there? What about HG with and without legion gear? You see, it will never be so called balanced which is my point right from the start. Since all devices and mods and gear in that sense are available, then it is up to the individual to build up their toons. More pew pew less qq I say. It will be as balanced or imbalanced as a player chooses to make it. We cannot help it if a player chooses to enter a duel or a HG without any gear and devices or chooses to gimp themselves. However if we enforce a no device or no legion gear HG then we are already forcing that on players who chooses to get these. It is like saying AoPM or ascension cannot be used in PvP.
I emphasize I agree that devices certainly will put the haves and have nots apart. If all parties do not have devices that will close the gap. However, my point is that the have boys can also incorporate these devices into their builds if they spend the time to farm instead of qqing here. My removing that option of devices is being prescriptive rather than providing more possibilities and options.
[...]
I emphasize I agree that devices certainly will put the haves and have nots apart. If all parties do not have devices that will close the gap. However, my point is that the have boys can also incorporate these devices into their builds if they spend the time to farm instead of qqing here. My removing that option of devices is being prescriptive rather than providing more possibilities and options.
How to: Champions Online PvP
Step 1: Farm PvE.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Comments
Backup devices don't work in PvP zones - including SH.
The amount of cd redux that one can get on Palliate makes taking down the bosses without "insane" dps impossible. So SH could potentially be competitive, however the bigger issues plaguing it have nothing to do with powers or devices.
Getting kicked due to how auto-teaming interacts with a premade on a team map is, by itself, enough to kill any hope of a regularly popping q.
[sent form a phone]
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This is somewhat balanced by the insane levels of healing, in addition to palliate as vixy mentioned, dedicated healers can pull 8k healing per second from powers like iniquity. I've been in recent matches that have stalemated.
The tactics lie in the decisions about whether to defend or go on the attack e.g. how many players to have on the left, the right, and in the two bases.
In dueling and bash it's just about performing an optimal rotation of powers (which is not skill, but only an execution tax to play the game that lies beneath). Why don't you give some examples of tactical decisions in bash/duels that don't have an obviously optimal solution.
[posted from my old laptop that can't run CO :-( ]
Get a bettor one! http://slickdeals.net/deals/computers/
Or a desktop - they are cheap
[sent from a phone]
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I'm working on it! I ordered a new desktop, it should ship in another 2 weeks and hopefully get to me about a week after that. I'm using this time to stock up on work and sleep so that I'll have more time for CO when I get back.
Or build one XD Ima running CO on a HP laptop thats modded to fit into an empty NES shell.
Thats playing with power. ( anyone under 30 wont get that last pun :I )
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Aww I'm 27 and the NES was my first system in 1989, so I'm cool....time to update your nostalgia pun cutoff dates >:D
Pics! Feel free to pose with it in your birthday suit
Whoa. Major cool points awarded.
And now I want one of my own. Maybe inside an old Genesis box...
Also I wish for better Become Devices and ATs for PvP.
I swear your I think your Pion's alt account sometimes :I
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
And yeah I said PVP EVENT. Holy moly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
@Pallih in game
Events usually are set up with rules. In duels, unless discussed prior to the fighr, they can easily be used. A trained eye can spot the use of devices in a duel as well. In Hero Games, all is fair in love and war.
If a person can't beat me using 14 power picks and 2 travel powers, then that's on them. If they resort to using devices, they're using a crutch. If I STILL beat them while they're using their crutch, then that's pathetic.
But what about ATs?
In the case of ATs you have a toolset laid out in front of you. Use that toolset well and you won't need to use devices to win.
Unless you're a Mind or an Impulse. Poor Mind and Impulse.
Yeah thats true if you dont go up against PvP FF. I dont think my new PvP toon Mr Annoiyewmuch has even been SCRATCHED by an AT in duels
People dont AT PvP because they dont want steamrolled.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
This is all fine and good, but it's also just your opinion. Devices are available to everyone, and add another perspective to PvP as a whole. For us that are terribly bored with CO PvE & PvP, it gives us just one more thing to think about/obtain/incorporate into our builds.
You see them as a crutch. I see them as another way to maximize my powerset. Do I really need a NTTG applier when I can use devices that remove flight and travel powers? Extra points to spend elsewhere. Do I need a knock power when I have a device that knocks? Well, yea, cuz knocks are fun to use. But surely you get my point.
But if I'm just having a casual duel with two not-min-maxed characters (like I often used to do with a few friends of mine) and my opponent suddenly whips out a NPG, Necrulitic Elixir, Ice Grenades and Omicron Induced Strength without warning... well, it's on.
I agree wholeheartedly here with you. Devices adds another dimension to the gameplay. Just like legion gear vs heroic gear. The idea of a balance fight/duel does not exist in CO period. Just use whatever you can get your hands on and fight. If we want to talk about balanced fight, then everyone need to have the same set of powers, gears, mods, devices. Then assuming not network lag, and similar bandwidth speed, the fight becomes one of who smashes button faster, who has more situational awareness and combat strategy. That will be a totally balanced fight. Right now, the diversity in powers, skills, gear, devices simply makes it impossible for such balance. Assuming 1 player defeats another and both did not use devices, does that mean player A is the better PvPer? We know for a certain range currently has a much better edge than melee toons. Could player A be using legion gear with R7 mods while player B only has heroic gear with R5 mods? Could it be possible that player A is using the recently pick-of-the-crop dps 2GM while player B is using dragon claw? Now does it seem wrong for player B to use a device to even out the fight? There are just way too many presumptions.
Why not just let players use whatever is available in game to win if they want to? If you can't beat them, then review your toon and modify it with a counter. Still cannot do it? Then use what they use but do it better than them. Does that not show the "skill" of the player (assuming of course the other person does not then start to QQ about lag)?
I think some vets need to change their mindset to be able to accept new powers and new additions to the game and be able to adapt, incorporate them into their builds. A reluctance to move forward with the time and changes simply means getting left behind.
The best builds minimize the amount of skill it takes to win.
Agreed that devices have a similar effect, but given their availability...well you snooze, you lose.
It seems that the ones who blame their losses on device use are those that are in need of a crutch. Much easier to moan and complain than spend 2-3k G to get what you need to compete.
The funniest complaints are the ones where the people who lose and die follow up with tells about how you are a noob and lack skills without realizing that they are just insulting themselves. After all, if it takes no skill to kill them then whose fault is that?
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Would this make pvp more interesting?
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Yes.
/10 char
Ci.
Every device, massively available?
BUENO.
Maybe. But they are already relatively accessible.
The stuff that makes a much bigger difference, but is less visible and less accesible is Legion Gear.
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Hey Now!
People don't AT-pvp because it's a greater challenge; no one likes to struggle. Even Mc Luv's AT (Mars) did really well against pvp FFs. Haven't really seen @Scrizz's AT in action since he went from Behemoth to Dev. I still remember @Mahoff's Soldier AT - he was really good with it. Also, I enjoy watching ATs go at it more than FFs.
Signed, signed and signed. There is a need to recognize that part of the PvP element also involve coming up with a better build and putting that build to good use. Devices, mods and gears are now all part of what we call a build. Rather than just spend time duelling in ren cen ONLY, spend some time doing PvE stuff to farm gears, mods and devices. Do not stagnate while the world moves on. Use the things you get from PvE to better your PvP build. I come across way too many PvPers who needs to borrow G in order to retcon instead of farming for it first.
Really depends, some AT's really hold their ground, a well build Devastator is stronger than anything, then Cursed/Unleashed, then Void. Glacier tends to be underrated aswell depending of the playstyle.
And noone even paid attention to the Invincible: AT Imbued Chest Beam, Reconstruction Circuits healing, Invul coupled with an Unbreakable which the cooldowns are reduced through Revitalize and that can appear again due to the Protector specs. It's almost close in scheme to what people run in defensive options these days.
This reminds me of my short time playing a very pay2win robot fighting mmo. Basically, the company would come out with new robots about once every 2 months which you had to gamble for in a Gachapon. These robots were drastically more powerful than the robots available previously, and severely outmatched the basic starting robots you had access to for free.
By the time I had joined, it was already generally understood that if you used the free robots, you could expect to get utterly destroyed by players who were using the pay-for robots. It was also generally understood that if you did not do what you had to do every two months to buy the new robots, that you were basically in for a similar fate at the hands of every player who got the new stuff.
There was one point, somewhere around christmas, where they came out with some REALLY powerful robots, that were only available for a limited time, two robots that since then haven't been matched in power. The folks who jumped in and really gambled like crazy to get those limited time robots continue to enjoy their advantage even to this day, and there are many players who are essentially hooked in on the idea that some day there might be another limited time offer on those robots, or something even better.
Some folks, like myself, saw this for the marketing ploy it was. Others, generally those who were winning due to their investment, simply said "Hey, you snooze you lose...".
This game pretty much defines power creep and pay to win.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I'll have to disagree with ya, Smoochychan. While whatever game that was did literally require the expenditure of real money to get the latest and greatest to "win," the difference with CO's devices is that they require farming, not cash. That's a big difference. Sure you can subscribe monthly for benefits setting a Gold member apart from a f2player, but that is expected from a plethora of mmorpg's. What sets CO apart is that -all- Gold members have access to the same powers and builds (if they are smart enough to build well.)
If you're argument is that CO is pay to win, it fails. Additionally, farming devices is part of the PvE aspect of the game moreso than anything to do with winning. Take that away and the majority of CO's population loses a major form of economy/trade. CO Devs know better than to mess up their PvE experience, regardless of their blatant refusal to do anything for the PvP aspect of their game.
It was nice playing with you guys.
:biggrin:
@Scrizz :biggrin:
play guild wars 2 with meh!
I wasn't talking about CO. I thought that was pretty clear...
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Oh, my bad. You weren't giving specifics and perhaps I misread your final sentence to mean CO. If you weren't making the comparison, why bring up some other game at all?
Limited time offers, and long grinds for power that are made much shorter by paying cash. Everything starts small and innocent looking. When you build it slowly, the players barely even notice what's happening.
But hey, CO will never become that kind of game, right? I'm sure nobody ever said that about going F2P or lockboxes... and it's not as if the population here is at all receptive to that sort of thing, certainly not entire super groups who would jump on it at the first opportunity.
CO does not define Pay2Win or power creep... but then there's the whole pw issue, and so far all their little tests have been giving green lights.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
P2W happens to be financing all those F2P. PWE has a business model which happens to work and has bought over a company whose model did not.
There are genuine F2P games like those on FB. Just ignore the occasional ads and have fun
They were right. Snoozing and losing are not limited to pay2win or even games in general. It comes up a lot in everyday life - often in a competitive context.
But in terms of devices, the difference between 0 globals and 3-4k globals is a matter of farming for 3-4 days. So that is really what all the fuss is about in this thread at the end of the day.
I am sure that you understand the asymmetry in the argument of "you either have to pay2win or farm2win" when the second option does not require much effort.
Edit: just want to clarify that the argument above is being made purely in the case of devices. When it comes to the best Legion Gear, Vixy completely agrees that the difference between the haves and have nots is very large.
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Sometimes, some people prefer to spend their time trolling forums rather than farming in game.
lolucy.
/10 char
But, in ZA and Duels, no ban there, because in these two instances youre capable of setting your own rules by how/who you want to duel/play for fun. ZA has never been a MegaSerious pvp type due to its fun PvE like attributes.
That i feel, is a fair balance. Serious duelers have bash and arenas fighting BUILD TO BUILD, whilst casual/fun lovers will duel or go ZA and DO WHATEVER THEY WANT.
Both sides are happy.
Beg to differ here, because that argument revolves around what is defined as a build. In your definition it seems, a build will consist of gears, mods and powers. However, why not include devices into that list?
As I pointed out earlier, even if we take the devices out of the equation, there will still be disparity of players with legion gear and R7 mods versus players with just heroic or even mercenary gear with r4 to r5 mods. So then, should we nullify the effects of gears and mods during duels and HG? This will leave behind superstats, spec tree skills, powers and talent choices and how well you can press a keyboard.
Anyway, that's just my 2 cents worth and I do not want to spiral down the track of debating what should or should not constitute a build or how a build was defined 3 years ago when the game started because this is how the game is as of now.
It was like "Healer in foe and we have none. It's Game over." before but its changed.
I like this new game.
Im saying give some pvp modes no limits, and some a device ban because then people can make their own choice, rather than have no choice and have to come to the forum and create a thread like this
Hmm but what if players want to do a devices-included bash? I get what you are saying perhaps then an option to set a HG with either device or no device but given the attention and love which pvp is getting I doubt that will ever happen. It will be like the different tiers of pvp and then will it stop there? What about HG with and without legion gear? You see, it will never be so called balanced which is my point right from the start. Since all devices and mods and gear in that sense are available, then it is up to the individual to build up their toons. More pew pew less qq I say. It will be as balanced or imbalanced as a player chooses to make it. We cannot help it if a player chooses to enter a duel or a HG without any gear and devices or chooses to gimp themselves. However if we enforce a no device or no legion gear HG then we are already forcing that on players who chooses to get these. It is like saying AoPM or ascension cannot be used in PvP.
I emphasize I agree that devices certainly will put the haves and have nots apart. If all parties do not have devices that will close the gap. However, my point is that the have boys can also incorporate these devices into their builds if they spend the time to farm instead of qqing here. My removing that option of devices is being prescriptive rather than providing more possibilities and options.
How to: Champions Online PvP
Step 1: Farm PvE.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Yes, batman uses a grappling hook. There's a power for that. We're talking game mechanics and balance though, not source material or genre.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Fyi, devices are skills... and skills are a game mechanic i guess. ^^