I wouldnt say that video shows how out of line Mental Storm (Mind Control)'s heal is, you almost died. It was simply functioning as a heal should, it was keeping you alive, the fact that you received decent healing is no reason to call for a nerf or to say it is out of line.
On a full controller build, this would be one of the only/ good sources of heals it would have.
Watching this video, I assume you had highish CON to begin with I'd say around 8k or higher. Most controller builds generally would not have so much con and would depend upon heals to survive.
I also note that the interupts didnt interfere with his radiation breath. So content here wasnt trivialized by CC, bosses can still attack you for decent amount of damage.
Melee builds I think would appreciate staying alive by having heals which proc either round an enemy or around a controller.
The AoE component is meant for surrounding allies, I am sure people would appreciate heals in an AoE like Healing Drones used to do, I do believe these powers were intended as a support function and are filling that intention. If your video showed that you were out healing / near immune to all damage by using this power then yes there would be cause for concern.
But your video showed that you almost died even with the healing provided by Mental Storm. I'm pretty sure if regen was removed it would be a different story.
What about iniquity? That's around 3,000heal per .5 seconds, so 6,000HPS (and can be made an AOE heal with adv that still heals for over 5,000hps). Granted it's only on other players, so i guess there's no issue, maybe make mental whatever's heal only on other players around you but for twice as much?
Bug:
Shadow of Doubt should be moved to Ranged Area Attack in Power Selection
Getting 10 stacks that do not get consumed will be used on only one type of build.. cherry-pickers.
To this I want to say.. "Don't cater to the lowest common denominator" but I know I can't trust that.. so IF in fact the healing on Mental Leech is so great, then it could use a nerf.
What is mind numbingly boring video.
That is exactly my concern.
You've noted your preference. But It's not enough to build a case on.. this is just you stating preference of playstyle not providing an actionable argument for removal of the interrupt mechanic.
The time powers are locked out from interrupts scale with hold strength. Conversely, mez protection lowers the amount of time powers are locked out from interrupts. 506 PRE + 8 manipulator stacks + PRE tree bonus to holds allowed for ~2-3 second lockouts from a single interrupt vs a low PRE player.
Thank you for your testing. I am not sure if devs intend to block and block enhancers immune to interrupt but they in fact should be immune ton interruption. As for the cooldown.. I am not seeing it raised via boosting crowd control, but even if it were my toon is specc'd for cc to the max and my enemy reported the same time as facing me.. I could just not be seeing it.
I however did not fully understand what you meant by "puts powers on a cooldown" but this is in fact how interrupts worked with Clobber so it is not a full character disable.
Kaizern, am I right in saying you got lock out when interrupted?
I'm testing it right now and I didnt, all that happened is that block was interrupted when I had it up which I consider a major bug. I only got lockout on paralyze which is what Mental Storm is meant to do, it is a dual function power.
Bug: Block is being interrupted by Interrupt powers and some forms like IDF are being turned off via this as well.
What is mind numbingly boring video.
That is exactly my concern.
The whole point of these powers is to numb the mind of your foes to some extent
Everyone's playstyle is different, whilst you may find it mentally boring, I think control is a good aspect for me to capitalize on and on PTS I love it.
BUG:
I am not receiving a heal when i proc Mind Break on enemies.
Gentleman Crush:
Some new developments..
1) I do not feel that inturrupts should break block against players. I don't really know if this is possible to do.. it'd be updating block and all the block enhancers to not be affected.. but this turns inturrupt from "meh" to "whoa" in pvp. I'm unclear as to if this is intended or not.. (Sleep is the only other crowd control that breaks block)
2) The potential for cherry picked (and non-cherrypicked frankly) Mental Leech is just too insane. The healing is generally in line with the "cast and consume" model however when players cast and do not consume.. it is cause for major concern.
Possible solution:
Perhaps there should be one, refreshable heal (lets say 300 HPS as example*) and then stacks of Dependancy could provide a buff to that single heal (20% increased heal to Mental leech per stack up to 10) taking the final HPS to around 600 HPS. The idea here being one large heal every second that is buffed instead of 10 tiny heals.
*Numbers chosen are in reference to your example and not representative of real numbers but rather to show the mechanic of a 200% heal buff to the heal at 10 stacks.
3) Inturrupts have a very low cost and extremely high benefit to damage mitigation. Being able to interrupt endgame boss content should be reserved for controllers (people with Manipulator).
For players without Manipulator, Inturrupts should work 25-50% of the time.
On a seperate note:
Gentleman Crush.. I do think Inturrupts could come with a high amount of threat generation (not enough to take aggro from a good tank.. but enough so that if the player is not in Support or Ranged DPS role (threat reduction) nor using Congress of Selves (more threat reduction) and not also using Mind Wipe/Absolve (ultimate threat reduction) they will find themselves in a compromising position in a boss fight.
I have always maintained that crowd control should come with high threat generation (specifically in PvP). Its very much a "get them, they are dangerous" mechanic. I had created a sonic framework idea somewhere that also used interrupts but ran as a tank. The increase in threat was because of the crowd control (and knocks) that come with set.. the same principle should be applied to crowd control.
1) I do not feel that inturrupts should break block against players. I don't really know if this is possible to do.. it'd be updating block and all the block enhancers to not be affected.. but this turns inturrupt from "meh" to "whoa" in pvp. I'm unclear as to if this is intended or not..
2) The potential for cherry picked (and non-cherrypicked frankly) Mental Leech is just too insane. The healing is generally in line with the "cast and consume" model however when players cast and do not consume.. it is cause for major concern.
3) Inturrupts have a very low cost and extremely high benefit to damage mitigation. Being able to interrupt endgame boss content should be reserved for controllers (people with Manipulator).
For players without Manipulator, Inturrupts should work 25-50% of the time.
^^ All of this.
/Agreed and Signed and what ever else which means I back this.
The whole point of these powers is to numb the mind of your foes to some extent
Everyone's playstyle is different, whilst you may find it mentally boring, I think control is a good aspect for me to capitalize on and on PTS I love it.
The CC is potent yes, but it is not IMO on the bad side of potent, it's about as potent as DPS is against bosses or the blocking mechanic. Both of which are sound mechanics.
Does one person using block reduce the damage of a boss charge up to zero for everyone in the area ? An interrupt does.
Does a DPS character's main DPS attacks prevent a boss' schtick attacks from doing damage ?
Here is a good way to determine if an interrupt is balanced against a DPS attack:
1) Face off against a boss capable of one shotting with his schtick attack.
2) Have a DPS character fire off his dps attack while the boss is attacking him with the schtick attack.
3) Have another character fire off an interrupt while the boss is attacking with his schtick attack.
4) compare the survival rate between the characters in 2) and 3).
I think you will find that a character not getting hit by an attack that one shots if it lands has more survivability than getting hit and instantly killed by an attack that does one shot.
A character with interrupts can still carry damage dealing attacks. The primary difference between him and a character without the interrupts is that the pure DPS build will theoretically finish the boss off sooner. That is not a disadvantage for the character using interrupts to prevent the boss from getting off the killing blow.
My preferred playstyle is that of an interrupter/controller. What I call a, "spoiler." It has been my preferred playstyle for years now, predating CO where I created a character for that playstyle before the game launched.
Interrupts work best when there are decisions to be made, choices with upsides and downsides coming in to play, and so on. In CO that is not really the case, with the possible exception of PvP.
Ideally, as is the case elsewhere, a character using an interrupt should be facing situations where he has to pick and choose when to use his interrupt. Targets of interrupts should have multiple capabilities worthy of that interrupt requiring that the interrupter prioritize the use of his 'rupts. "Do I 'rupt the big AoE, the defensive buff, or the heal ?" The interrupt skills need to have some significant limiting factor to prevent them from dominating an encounter. A properly timed, prioritized, and executed interrupt should be a significant contribution to a victory, perhaps even a keystone moment in an encounter, but it should not trivialize the encounter.
I fully support, and would love to see, gameplay options implemented in CO that make my preferred playstyle a viable option. What is being done here, along with what already exists, does not do such. It merely provides a one button option for one player to neuter an encounter.
Does one person using block reduce the damage of a boss charge up to zero for everyone in the area ? An interrupt does.
(more)
Your analysis of the function is flawed. DPS builds are not made for survivability, while Controller builds ARE made for support.
We are not asking that support be great at tanking. We are not asking that support be good at DPS. We are asking that support be good at support.. And the goal of support IS to affect everyone.
I want crowd control to be designed to function AS CROWD CONTROL against boss content. I want this to be relatively restricted to the controller gameplay.
You are presenting a false argument. I ran around the Bloodmoon event with Ravenforce this morning hoping to Rofl-stomp content with these mystical "inturrupts of gamebreaking". Simply didn't happen. The whole "turns enemies into a punching bag of HP" argument is a lie.
Its predicated by players FEARS and not the actual Situation. If ANY toon should be able to perma-inturrupt an enemy it should be mine.. I have 700 INT and focus solely on Crowd Control (and broken **** Crowd Control Resistance is my Defense, adding to squishyness) at huge the loss of DPS, and has hit the limit of how high cooldowns can go. Even she (with another player ALSO using inturrupts) could not perma interrupt a boss. Tested against supervillains and Takofanes and Mega Destroid from "Destroids Rise Again"
It's simply a false and hypothetical argument. But even if it were a TRUE argument.. it stands on rather weak (and in my opinion biased) grounds.
You've noted your preference. But It's not enough to build a case on.. this is just you stating preference of playstyle not providing an actionable argument for removal of the interrupt mechanic.
By that reasoning you can justify adding any mechanic to a game, anyone who objects is just having a different preferred playstyle. Nothing currently in the game is removing my choice in playstyle, you can have yours I will not object, as long as your preferred game is not to ruin mine.
By that reasoning you can justify adding any mechanic to a game, anyone who objects is just having a different preferred playstyle. Nothing currently in the game is removing my choice in playstyle, you can have yours I will not object, as long as your preferred game is not to ruin mine.
Inturrups are not new. But your objection to them is.. this is one rather relevant hole in your argument for their removal, along with the others noted.
If you want to present a case for their removal, it will simply have to come to more than "I don't like them" is all I'm saying.
Does one person using block reduce the damage of a boss charge up to zero for everyone in the area ? An interrupt does.
Usually people would be thankful for not dying. Interrupts unless proc'd at EXACTLY the right time when boss is about to fire or charging up, which can be difficult to do, has no effect apart from minimal damage. I was still able to be killed on my support build by not only mobs but also the boss did significant damage even without the mass charge abilities. Block is a different mechanic to interrupts. Single target charge ups like a boss using shadow blast doesnt affect an AoE, and bosses don't respond to interrupts unless they are proc'd at the right time.
Here is a good way to determine if an interrupt is balanced against a DPS attack:
1) Face off against a boss capable of one shotting with his schtick attack.
2) Have a DPS character fire off his dps attack while the boss is attacking him with the schtick attack.
3) Have another character fire off an interrupt while the boss is attacking with his schtick attack.
4) compare the survival rate between the characters in 2) and 3).
1) If boss is interrupted at the wrong time which can be easy to do since it is on CDs, CCer will get one shotted. Typically DPSers are primarily long range and can easily teleport or something out of range, block also works wonders for both builds. Assuming the CCer uses the interrupts at the right time, then yes, the CCer is not only doing his/her job but amazingly for the first time their powers are actually working than resorting to taking on mini mobs and perhaps even getting swamped. DPSer naturally is squishy as this is a trade off for high damage. As it stands and as many people have rightly stated it pays off more to do damage than to CC. I believe this is what the new CC powers are trying to change.
2) Surely unless the DPS has some reliable form of healing or self preservation they would not attack whilst being attacked but would move themselves from range OR block. But DPS and CC are two very different playstyles. It's like comparing Healers to Tanks and saying who would survive an mob onslaught...unless the healer is very well adept to fighting large mobs, they will not fare to well where as tanks are more adept to soaking up damage
3) The outcome will be the boss will be interrupted and start using other attacks against the player to kill them.
4) People act as if bosses only use charge up attacks, if this were the case I'd agree something needs to be done, but since it is not, just accept the fact that a game mechanic which hasnt been played with in a while is finally getting a "Triumphant Recovery Pack" to the face. In both instances there are many extraneous variables to consider, how high is the HP of the DPS build? Are they focused on healing/do they have self preservation techniques? Such questions also apply to the CCer. But if I ignore all the extraneous variables in these theoretical situations. The DPSer will not only do more damage but most likely have better defense in that they know they are squishy and cant rely on damage alone to survive. If we say here that both are staple CC and DPS builds and do not use any forms of healing or defense apart from block. The DPS will most likely outlast the CCer. Not only is their damage significantly higher (which I have no problem with, that is the way it is meant to be) but if the DPSer has an offensive passive like Electric Form, that provides some damage resistance, whereas CoS only provides dmg resist against ego damage. Most bosses do not rely on ego damage, so yes I think CCer will die before DPS. But then again that is without any accounting for extraneous variables which were not defined, as IMO there is not standard DPS build, all are different in some form (unless they are clones of other peoples builds).
If the CC was potent then the DPS may be outlasted by the CCer if they "lack the capacity to move out of range" (Pertains to something which Spar said, I can't remember exactly but it was something about the Gravitar mechanic of her yellow bubble).
Inturrups are not new. But your objection to them is.. this is one rather relevant hole in your argument for their removal, along with the others noted.
If you want to present a case for their removal, it will simply have to come to more than "I don't like them" is all I'm saying.
This is a game, anything can be intended as long as the person making the game says it is.
However with the introduction of the gravitar alert, and the things with the fire and ice boss in development, there has been some effort in making a little more complicated mechanics.
It seemed making fight more complicated and interactive is intended, but they can only do that if they allow people to respond to things happening in the fight. When removing the need/ability for anyone to respond to any power a boss could use, by one person spamming one power, most efforts in trying to make fights interesting in that way are wasted.
So yes it is a personal preference on my part, just as much as it is on yours.
As for interrupts not being new, I have never seen an effort to make an effective play style in which interrupts are the core mechanic used against bosses. I do not understand why not opposing it before is relevant.
Your analysis of the function is flawed. DPS builds are not made for survivability, while Controller builds ARE made for support.
My analysis was spot on. Neither are tanks and yet one of them had a 100% survival rate while the other had a 100% death rate. The individual I quoted stated that they were equal. If so, they would, when facing the same situations, fare equally.
We are not asking that support be great at tanking. We are not asking that support be good at DPS. We are asking that support be good at support.. And the goal of support IS to affect everyone.
I want crowd control to be designed to function AS CROWD CONTROL against boss content. I want this to be relatively restricted to the controller gameplay.
"I want something that allows one to affect everyone else to be restricted to my playstyle."
Interesting. And yet you claim that you want equality.
Which argument was false ? I made no comment avout Bloodmoon, Ravenforce, nor about you. Are you strawmanning, or just lying ?
I ran around the Bloodmoon event with Ravenforce this morning hoping to Rofl-stomp content with these mystical "inturrupts of gamebreaking". Simply didn't happen. The whole "turns enemies into a punching bag of HP" argument is a lie.
Its predicated by players FEARS and not the actual Situation. If ANY toon should be able to perma-inturrupt an enemy it should be mine.. I have 700 INT
Honest question was Kaiserin running your build, gearing, and stats in his video ? What percentage of a boss' schtick attacks can you not interrupt ?
and focus solely on Crowd Control (and broken **** Crowd Control Resistance is my Defense, adding to squishyness) at huge the loss of DPS, and has hit the limit of how high cooldowns can go. Even she (with another player ALSO using inturrupts) could not perma interrupt a boss. Tested against supervillains and Takofanes and Mega Destroid from "Destroids Rise Again"
It's simply a false and hypothetical argument. But even if it were a TRUE argument.. it stands on rather weak (and in my opinion biased) grounds.
No more biased than your belief that you should be allowed to directly, and negatively, impact the gameplay of everyone around you.
I want interrupts. But not until every mob in the game, including bosses, has been revisited to allow the game to handle them well. They should be useful in every aspect of gameplay from Westside to Therakiel's Temple without breaking any aspect. That is not currently the case.
So, let me get this straight; your build, which is poorly optimized and kills a lot of your DPS, should be the only build to do something? Your logic makes no sense, at all.
By that reasoning you can justify adding any mechanic to a game, anyone who objects is just having a different preferred playstyle. Nothing currently in the game is removing my choice in playstyle, you can have yours I will not object, as long as your preferred game is not to ruin mine.
The fear of CC ruining content is a complete lie, it doesnt. As Kontrol already stated, we ran around BM on PTS hoping to get insane OPness like everyone was complaining about and the total nullification of content via using these powers, hoping to gain some insight into where peoples point of view and basis for their arguement was. The simple fact is that there wasnt one. Even as two telepaths, one extremely powerful INT and one relatively powerful PRE telepath using control we were not immune to death and the bosses did not become our high HP dummies at all.
CC Interrupts have been in the game for quite a while now, an example is the Sub Zero Cell Block advantage on Ice Cage, no one complains about that because not all player attacks or boss attacks are charged attacks. The minute Telepathy is given a great set of CC powers to breathe life into it's CC aspect everyone gets upset. Yes granted there are issues like Interrupts working on Blocks and removing forms, Mental Storm giving insanely high healing numbers especially I found when coupled with broken Selfless Ally spec. All these little fixes are in order before releasing them. If they were released like this, then yes I could see how you would view this as ruining your playstle, once the aforementioned bugs are ironed out, it will be fine.
Support should not only be healing. It was originally CC and Healing. Allowing CC to actually be a part of support in all content is not a crime, if healing only worked in non high level content like CC, people would abandon it and hope for the best with tanks and beefy DPS builds.
The purpose of these interrupts is to make CC worthwhile in high end content. If someone is afraid of other unusual styles of players appearing thats a bit selfish isnt it?
Interrupts are about as OP as any other mechanic in game. Currently every other mechanic does well and fills it's job, from unstoppable tanks to insanely effective healers who can keep players alive even through Gravitars yellow bubble. When CCers want to get in on the action everyone cries nerf.
If your play style is Healing, CC will make your healing effects be more noticable and you can focus on doing more damage and there would be less strain on you to heal/rez. If you are a tank, CC can help you avoid annoying attacks. If a DPS, CC can help by reducing the amount of time you spend blocking and maximise the time you spend doing great dmg output.
IMO it's a win win situation. If players want certain death situations which they find challenging then by all means exclude CCers from your teams. A CCer is not required on the team never has but perhaps one day it will.
The fear of CC ruining content is a complete lie, it doesnt.
Umm, sorry, but I will let Inigo Montoya describe what is completely wrong with this statement. It's obvious you don't care, that much I get. But many of us actually do care about this game.
And all things considered, considering Jaybezz isn't even running an optimized build, let alone an OP one, I trust any figures you two come up with about as far as I can throw them.
So, let me get this straight; your build, which is poorly optimized and kills a lot of your DPS, should be the only build to do something? Your logic makes no sense, at all.
The post labelled "stuff" which you read did in fact say that;
"If ANY toon should be able to perma-inturrupt an enemy it should be mine.."
It was not left here, there was an explaination as to why which I will quote here...
"I have 700 INT and focus solely on Crowd Control (and broken **** Crowd Control Resistance is my Defense, adding to squishyness) at huge the loss of DPS, and has hit the limit of how high cooldowns can go"
It would not be poorly optimized if CC worked well. The focus of this build which was explained in the reasoning behind the statement was that it was focused on CC not on DPS.
The reasoning behind saying the build should be the only build to do something makes it sound as if Gamehobo was being a snob which was not the intention of the statement, it was an example. If you invest in something you shouldnt be punished for doing so, yes you will have weaknesses, but if a tank or DPS build focuses on their specific role the most they have to suffer is lack of energy pool or squishyness as a trade off for being a dense as stone meat shield or an insanely dangerous DPS.
Compared to "conventional" builds gamehobo's build is not standard and is a single stat build which focuses on one aspect of game play namely CC, compared to other builds it may seem poorly optimised but for concept it works.
First look and take note of the reasoning behind logic before assuming that it makes no sense.
Umm, sorry, but I will let Inigo Montoya describe what is completely wrong with this statement. It's obvious you don't care, that much I get. But many of us actually do care about this game.
And all things considered, considering Jaybezz isn't even running an optimized build, let alone an OP one, I trust any figures you two come up with about as far as I can throw them.
Again with the personal attacks, lol. The figures are posted for everyone's benefit not just yours primarily it is for the devs, everyone is welcome to do their own testing.
Jaybezz nor I require your trust or throwing capacity to post results from PTS testing.
Seriously I think so far you have been the only one comming out and trying to insult me on a personal level since I started commenting on this thread. I don't think its appropriate.
People did complain, back when Sub Zero Cell Block didn't have the 8 second internal cooldown like it does today.
I was not aware of this, but now that it does, who uses it? It is a wasted advantage now, if the internal CD was 4 secs or something then that would be alright. I'd just hate to see such work on telepathy to go to waste because of the bias of some players, which are based (some) on unfounded fears and memories of pre On Alert CC which was defined as OP due to one advantage on one power.
So, let me get this straight; your build, which is poorly optimized and kills a lot of your DPS, should be the only build to do something? Your logic makes no sense, at all.
I said IF the hypotheical being presented were the case my build is the single most optimized for exploit of the mechanic.
And yet.. the hysterics of "You turned them into a Punching Bag of HP" did not happen.
secondly, "my" playstyle is shared by other players. I do not own it.. its called being a controller. Do not attempt to derail the debate to personal attacks.
To ashensnow:
I did not speak of Kaisern's build. I spoke strictly from my first hand experience. Kaisern could "tank" on his toon before making that video.. adding inturrupts only improved his tankability. Something I do see as a balance problem. The solution to said problem however is not to completely remove intrurrupts for the game as many are calling for. I offered a possible solution.. However, the intended effect is for these inturrupts to WORK for manipulators. This intended effect had unintended consequences (as often happens in Champions Online) but you are calling for an extreme over-correction (as often happens in Champions Online)
CC Interrupts have been in the game for quite a while now, an example is the Sub Zero Cell Block advantage on Ice Cage, no one complains about that because not all player attacks or boss attacks are charged attacks.
Interrupts are not working on bosses at the moment. The interactive part that makes fights interesting in CO is almost completely depending on charge and maintain attacks. Learning to respond to those is the biggest learning curve we have in the gameplay. The tap attacks one can hardly respond to anyway, so I have to hope those will not kill me most of the time, and since they are much weaker they mostly will not (except for the cascades in the grav fight).
When it gets to the point that your play style is removing the interactive part of the boss fights for others, something is wrong. This is not something to gloss over or push aside as personal preference, you are promoting powers that will take the fun out of boss fights for others.
I have only seen circumstantial reasons why my concerns are not valid or important. That is not exactly my definition of a great debate either.
I do not consider your argument invalid nor unimportant. And "I don't like it" is an argument. It's just not compelling. Specifically in when it's a tentament to my counter argument that this opinion is based in bias against crowd control.
The fact that we're having this much discourse about it makes me consider inturrupt mechanics a valid concern.
There are some arguments that have come up that I think are completely compelling and I proposed solutions to them. There are other arguments that have come up that are not compelling and I attempt to dispel the chaff from the substance.
The opinion that Inturrupts "should not work on endgame content, goes directly against the raison d'etre of the mechanic.. therefore I have simplified the debate to "Inturrupts should exist" and "Inturrupts shouldn't exist". Those arguing that inturrupts should not exist have the burden of proof in this case because they have existed without this level of discourse since the inception of the game on live servers.
And any any court, besides that of public opinion, I simply don't think the arguments made are compelling. This is a simple case of the majority taking the rights of the minority. The right of controllers to be able to take effect in endgame content.
When it gets to the point that your play style is removing the interactive part of the boss fights for others, something is wrong. This is not something to gloss over or push aside as personal preference, you are promoting powers that will take the fun out of boss fights for others.
This is where the misunderstanding lies, interrupts do not stop bosses from attacking you outright, everyone seems to capitalize on the fact that it affects bosses and not realise that it has to be timed right or the interrupt effect will cease to work. Applying an interrupt before a boss uses a charge attack does not prevent them from doing just that. You have to INTERRUPT them at the right time for it to be effective.
CC is not dedicated to sucking the "fun" out of content, interrupts as part of CC are working as they were designed, I really hope the only things Crush fixes about these powers is:
1) The fact that they could remove forms like IDF
2) They can auto disable blocking if you are blocking and get hit with an interrupt.
3) Mental Storm's healing is as Kaizerin said (which I then tested) is very powerful. There have been suggestions to fix this by Gamehobo.
You could say that DPS builds suck the fun out of tanking because they steal all the agro, or that being able to heal sucks the fun out of dying, which IMO there is none.
By interaction with bosses I assume you mean attacking. Attacking is affected but not stopped dead in its tracks due to CC, bosses can still attack and with effective mob control and power usage can still kill controllers even through these "Content killing CC powers" which is a fallicy, the content does not just die or stop responding to attacks like Gravitar did to Smoke Grenade pre nerf. None of the CC powers have that level of content killing power like Smoke Grenade did. The most they can do is to interrupt charged attacks.
I'm pretty sure a number of players do not define dying as fun, I know I don't. I like a challenge, but if the challenge includes my prefered playstyle lying down dead in the gutter with the rest of the CC system, that is sucking the fun out of CO for me and others who chose to play that way. It would also be a large waste of Gentleman Crush's time since he spent a lot of time reading feedback and getting the dev team to make these powers just for them to be under utilized and end up as a waste of his time, because of unfounded and baseless fears.
I have tested these powers and they dont kill content, they simply work as intended. If people refuse to see how this can be useful or satisfy a certain group of players with a prefered playstyle then that is their own problem not anyone elses.
Working against change for the better by improving certain mechanics and giving dissuasive feedback is disheartening simply because it is not bestial (which does need help) or tanking styles (which also need help), is really biased. I play a variety of play styles, clearly not as much as some people do, but enough to view myself as balanced. I can see where things are lacking and CC since On Alert has been one of these areas, labelling me biased because I hold an opinion in favor of giving life to a dying mechanic is short sighted.
((On a different ish note...can Mental Storm be renamed to Mind Control? It is primarily a paralyze, a mechanic which telepathy was sorely lacking. I feel that since we already have one storm (Ego Storm) Perhaps a name change from Mental Storm to Mind Control is suitable IMO, and perhaps call the heal from it instead of Ebbing Lifeforce to Ego Drain or Brain Drain? <-- Suggestion here
Comments
I wouldnt say that video shows how out of line Mental Storm (Mind Control)'s heal is, you almost died. It was simply functioning as a heal should, it was keeping you alive, the fact that you received decent healing is no reason to call for a nerf or to say it is out of line.
On a full controller build, this would be one of the only/ good sources of heals it would have.
Watching this video, I assume you had highish CON to begin with I'd say around 8k or higher. Most controller builds generally would not have so much con and would depend upon heals to survive.
I also note that the interupts didnt interfere with his radiation breath. So content here wasnt trivialized by CC, bosses can still attack you for decent amount of damage.
Melee builds I think would appreciate staying alive by having heals which proc either round an enemy or around a controller.
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The AoE component is meant for surrounding allies, I am sure people would appreciate heals in an AoE like Healing Drones used to do, I do believe these powers were intended as a support function and are filling that intention. If your video showed that you were out healing / near immune to all damage by using this power then yes there would be cause for concern.
But your video showed that you almost died even with the healing provided by Mental Storm. I'm pretty sure if regen was removed it would be a different story.
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What is mind numbingly boring video.
That is exactly my concern.
What about iniquity? That's around 3,000heal per .5 seconds, so 6,000HPS (and can be made an AOE heal with adv that still heals for over 5,000hps). Granted it's only on other players, so i guess there's no issue, maybe make mental whatever's heal only on other players around you but for twice as much?
Snark never dies.
So? There are heals that at base do more than regen, that is widely known the example above this reply is a testament to that fact.
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Shadow of Doubt should be moved to Ranged Area Attack in Power Selection
Getting 10 stacks that do not get consumed will be used on only one type of build.. cherry-pickers.
To this I want to say.. "Don't cater to the lowest common denominator" but I know I can't trust that.. so IF in fact the healing on Mental Leech is so great, then it could use a nerf.
This one also goes to the devs to decide.
You've noted your preference. But It's not enough to build a case on.. this is just you stating preference of playstyle not providing an actionable argument for removal of the interrupt mechanic.
Thank you for your testing. I am not sure if devs intend to block and block enhancers immune to interrupt but they in fact should be immune ton interruption. As for the cooldown.. I am not seeing it raised via boosting crowd control, but even if it were my toon is specc'd for cc to the max and my enemy reported the same time as facing me.. I could just not be seeing it.
I however did not fully understand what you meant by "puts powers on a cooldown" but this is in fact how interrupts worked with Clobber so it is not a full character disable.
I'm testing it right now and I didnt, all that happened is that block was interrupted when I had it up which I consider a major bug. I only got lockout on paralyze which is what Mental Storm is meant to do, it is a dual function power.
Bug: Block is being interrupted by Interrupt powers and some forms like IDF are being turned off via this as well.
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The whole point of these powers is to numb the mind of your foes to some extent
Everyone's playstyle is different, whilst you may find it mentally boring, I think control is a good aspect for me to capitalize on and on PTS I love it.
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I am not receiving a heal when i proc Mind Break on enemies.
Gentleman Crush:
Some new developments..
1) I do not feel that inturrupts should break block against players. I don't really know if this is possible to do.. it'd be updating block and all the block enhancers to not be affected.. but this turns inturrupt from "meh" to "whoa" in pvp. I'm unclear as to if this is intended or not.. (Sleep is the only other crowd control that breaks block)
2) The potential for cherry picked (and non-cherrypicked frankly) Mental Leech is just too insane. The healing is generally in line with the "cast and consume" model however when players cast and do not consume.. it is cause for major concern.
3) Inturrupts have a very low cost and extremely high benefit to damage mitigation. Being able to interrupt endgame boss content should be reserved for controllers (people with Manipulator).
For players without Manipulator, Inturrupts should work 25-50% of the time.
^^ All of this.
/Agreed and Signed and what ever else which means I back this.
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@Scrizz :biggrin:
Does one person using block reduce the damage of a boss charge up to zero for everyone in the area ? An interrupt does.
Does a DPS character's main DPS attacks prevent a boss' schtick attacks from doing damage ?
Here is a good way to determine if an interrupt is balanced against a DPS attack:
1) Face off against a boss capable of one shotting with his schtick attack.
2) Have a DPS character fire off his dps attack while the boss is attacking him with the schtick attack.
3) Have another character fire off an interrupt while the boss is attacking with his schtick attack.
4) compare the survival rate between the characters in 2) and 3).
I think you will find that a character not getting hit by an attack that one shots if it lands has more survivability than getting hit and instantly killed by an attack that does one shot.
A character with interrupts can still carry damage dealing attacks. The primary difference between him and a character without the interrupts is that the pure DPS build will theoretically finish the boss off sooner. That is not a disadvantage for the character using interrupts to prevent the boss from getting off the killing blow.
My preferred playstyle is that of an interrupter/controller. What I call a, "spoiler." It has been my preferred playstyle for years now, predating CO where I created a character for that playstyle before the game launched.
Interrupts work best when there are decisions to be made, choices with upsides and downsides coming in to play, and so on. In CO that is not really the case, with the possible exception of PvP.
Ideally, as is the case elsewhere, a character using an interrupt should be facing situations where he has to pick and choose when to use his interrupt. Targets of interrupts should have multiple capabilities worthy of that interrupt requiring that the interrupter prioritize the use of his 'rupts. "Do I 'rupt the big AoE, the defensive buff, or the heal ?" The interrupt skills need to have some significant limiting factor to prevent them from dominating an encounter. A properly timed, prioritized, and executed interrupt should be a significant contribution to a victory, perhaps even a keystone moment in an encounter, but it should not trivialize the encounter.
I fully support, and would love to see, gameplay options implemented in CO that make my preferred playstyle a viable option. What is being done here, along with what already exists, does not do such. It merely provides a one button option for one player to neuter an encounter.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
Your analysis of the function is flawed. DPS builds are not made for survivability, while Controller builds ARE made for support.
We are not asking that support be great at tanking. We are not asking that support be good at DPS. We are asking that support be good at support.. And the goal of support IS to affect everyone.
I want crowd control to be designed to function AS CROWD CONTROL against boss content. I want this to be relatively restricted to the controller gameplay.
- -
Again I point to my post here:
You are presenting a false argument. I ran around the Bloodmoon event with Ravenforce this morning hoping to Rofl-stomp content with these mystical "inturrupts of gamebreaking". Simply didn't happen. The whole "turns enemies into a punching bag of HP" argument is a lie.
Its predicated by players FEARS and not the actual Situation. If ANY toon should be able to perma-inturrupt an enemy it should be mine.. I have 700 INT and focus solely on Crowd Control (and broken **** Crowd Control Resistance is my Defense, adding to squishyness) at huge the loss of DPS, and has hit the limit of how high cooldowns can go. Even she (with another player ALSO using inturrupts) could not perma interrupt a boss. Tested against supervillains and Takofanes and Mega Destroid from "Destroids Rise Again"
It's simply a false and hypothetical argument. But even if it were a TRUE argument.. it stands on rather weak (and in my opinion biased) grounds.
By that reasoning you can justify adding any mechanic to a game, anyone who objects is just having a different preferred playstyle. Nothing currently in the game is removing my choice in playstyle, you can have yours I will not object, as long as your preferred game is not to ruin mine.
Inturrups are not new. But your objection to them is.. this is one rather relevant hole in your argument for their removal, along with the others noted.
If you want to present a case for their removal, it will simply have to come to more than "I don't like them" is all I'm saying.
Usually people would be thankful for not dying. Interrupts unless proc'd at EXACTLY the right time when boss is about to fire or charging up, which can be difficult to do, has no effect apart from minimal damage. I was still able to be killed on my support build by not only mobs but also the boss did significant damage even without the mass charge abilities. Block is a different mechanic to interrupts. Single target charge ups like a boss using shadow blast doesnt affect an AoE, and bosses don't respond to interrupts unless they are proc'd at the right time.
It does if they one shot or outright kill them before damage can be released. Which in CO currently is very possible in DPS standards.
1) If boss is interrupted at the wrong time which can be easy to do since it is on CDs, CCer will get one shotted. Typically DPSers are primarily long range and can easily teleport or something out of range, block also works wonders for both builds. Assuming the CCer uses the interrupts at the right time, then yes, the CCer is not only doing his/her job but amazingly for the first time their powers are actually working than resorting to taking on mini mobs and perhaps even getting swamped. DPSer naturally is squishy as this is a trade off for high damage. As it stands and as many people have rightly stated it pays off more to do damage than to CC. I believe this is what the new CC powers are trying to change.
2) Surely unless the DPS has some reliable form of healing or self preservation they would not attack whilst being attacked but would move themselves from range OR block. But DPS and CC are two very different playstyles. It's like comparing Healers to Tanks and saying who would survive an mob onslaught...unless the healer is very well adept to fighting large mobs, they will not fare to well where as tanks are more adept to soaking up damage
3) The outcome will be the boss will be interrupted and start using other attacks against the player to kill them.
4) People act as if bosses only use charge up attacks, if this were the case I'd agree something needs to be done, but since it is not, just accept the fact that a game mechanic which hasnt been played with in a while is finally getting a "Triumphant Recovery Pack" to the face. In both instances there are many extraneous variables to consider, how high is the HP of the DPS build? Are they focused on healing/do they have self preservation techniques? Such questions also apply to the CCer. But if I ignore all the extraneous variables in these theoretical situations. The DPSer will not only do more damage but most likely have better defense in that they know they are squishy and cant rely on damage alone to survive. If we say here that both are staple CC and DPS builds and do not use any forms of healing or defense apart from block. The DPS will most likely outlast the CCer. Not only is their damage significantly higher (which I have no problem with, that is the way it is meant to be) but if the DPSer has an offensive passive like Electric Form, that provides some damage resistance, whereas CoS only provides dmg resist against ego damage. Most bosses do not rely on ego damage, so yes I think CCer will die before DPS. But then again that is without any accounting for extraneous variables which were not defined, as IMO there is not standard DPS build, all are different in some form (unless they are clones of other peoples builds).
If the CC was potent then the DPS may be outlasted by the CCer if they "lack the capacity to move out of range" (Pertains to something which Spar said, I can't remember exactly but it was something about the Gravitar mechanic of her yellow bubble).
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This is a game, anything can be intended as long as the person making the game says it is.
However with the introduction of the gravitar alert, and the things with the fire and ice boss in development, there has been some effort in making a little more complicated mechanics.
It seemed making fight more complicated and interactive is intended, but they can only do that if they allow people to respond to things happening in the fight. When removing the need/ability for anyone to respond to any power a boss could use, by one person spamming one power, most efforts in trying to make fights interesting in that way are wasted.
So yes it is a personal preference on my part, just as much as it is on yours.
As for interrupts not being new, I have never seen an effort to make an effective play style in which interrupts are the core mechanic used against bosses. I do not understand why not opposing it before is relevant.
I want interrupts. But not until every mob in the game, including bosses, has been revisited to allow the game to handle them well. They should be useful in every aspect of gameplay from Westside to Therakiel's Temple without breaking any aspect. That is not currently the case.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
So, let me get this straight; your build, which is poorly optimized and kills a lot of your DPS, should be the only build to do something? Your logic makes no sense, at all.
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The fear of CC ruining content is a complete lie, it doesnt. As Kontrol already stated, we ran around BM on PTS hoping to get insane OPness like everyone was complaining about and the total nullification of content via using these powers, hoping to gain some insight into where peoples point of view and basis for their arguement was. The simple fact is that there wasnt one. Even as two telepaths, one extremely powerful INT and one relatively powerful PRE telepath using control we were not immune to death and the bosses did not become our high HP dummies at all.
CC Interrupts have been in the game for quite a while now, an example is the Sub Zero Cell Block advantage on Ice Cage, no one complains about that because not all player attacks or boss attacks are charged attacks. The minute Telepathy is given a great set of CC powers to breathe life into it's CC aspect everyone gets upset. Yes granted there are issues like Interrupts working on Blocks and removing forms, Mental Storm giving insanely high healing numbers especially I found when coupled with broken Selfless Ally spec. All these little fixes are in order before releasing them. If they were released like this, then yes I could see how you would view this as ruining your playstle, once the aforementioned bugs are ironed out, it will be fine.
Support should not only be healing. It was originally CC and Healing. Allowing CC to actually be a part of support in all content is not a crime, if healing only worked in non high level content like CC, people would abandon it and hope for the best with tanks and beefy DPS builds.
The purpose of these interrupts is to make CC worthwhile in high end content. If someone is afraid of other unusual styles of players appearing thats a bit selfish isnt it?
Interrupts are about as OP as any other mechanic in game. Currently every other mechanic does well and fills it's job, from unstoppable tanks to insanely effective healers who can keep players alive even through Gravitars yellow bubble. When CCers want to get in on the action everyone cries nerf.
If your play style is Healing, CC will make your healing effects be more noticable and you can focus on doing more damage and there would be less strain on you to heal/rez. If you are a tank, CC can help you avoid annoying attacks. If a DPS, CC can help by reducing the amount of time you spend blocking and maximise the time you spend doing great dmg output.
IMO it's a win win situation. If players want certain death situations which they find challenging then by all means exclude CCers from your teams. A CCer is not required on the team never has but perhaps one day it will.
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Umm, sorry, but I will let Inigo Montoya describe what is completely wrong with this statement. It's obvious you don't care, that much I get. But many of us actually do care about this game.
And all things considered, considering Jaybezz isn't even running an optimized build, let alone an OP one, I trust any figures you two come up with about as far as I can throw them.
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The post labelled "stuff" which you read did in fact say that;
"If ANY toon should be able to perma-inturrupt an enemy it should be mine.."
It was not left here, there was an explaination as to why which I will quote here...
"I have 700 INT and focus solely on Crowd Control (and broken **** Crowd Control Resistance is my Defense, adding to squishyness) at huge the loss of DPS, and has hit the limit of how high cooldowns can go"
It would not be poorly optimized if CC worked well. The focus of this build which was explained in the reasoning behind the statement was that it was focused on CC not on DPS.
The reasoning behind saying the build should be the only build to do something makes it sound as if Gamehobo was being a snob which was not the intention of the statement, it was an example. If you invest in something you shouldnt be punished for doing so, yes you will have weaknesses, but if a tank or DPS build focuses on their specific role the most they have to suffer is lack of energy pool or squishyness as a trade off for being a dense as stone meat shield or an insanely dangerous DPS.
Compared to "conventional" builds gamehobo's build is not standard and is a single stat build which focuses on one aspect of game play namely CC, compared to other builds it may seem poorly optimised but for concept it works.
First look and take note of the reasoning behind logic before assuming that it makes no sense.
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Again with the personal attacks, lol. The figures are posted for everyone's benefit not just yours primarily it is for the devs, everyone is welcome to do their own testing.
Jaybezz nor I require your trust or throwing capacity to post results from PTS testing.
Seriously I think so far you have been the only one comming out and trying to insult me on a personal level since I started commenting on this thread. I don't think its appropriate.
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I was not aware of this, but now that it does, who uses it? It is a wasted advantage now, if the internal CD was 4 secs or something then that would be alright. I'd just hate to see such work on telepathy to go to waste because of the bias of some players, which are based (some) on unfounded fears and memories of pre On Alert CC which was defined as OP due to one advantage on one power.
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Then you have room for improvement in debate.
I said IF the hypotheical being presented were the case my build is the single most optimized for exploit of the mechanic.
And yet.. the hysterics of "You turned them into a Punching Bag of HP" did not happen.
secondly, "my" playstyle is shared by other players. I do not own it.. its called being a controller. Do not attempt to derail the debate to personal attacks.
To ashensnow:
I did not speak of Kaisern's build. I spoke strictly from my first hand experience. Kaisern could "tank" on his toon before making that video.. adding inturrupts only improved his tankability. Something I do see as a balance problem. The solution to said problem however is not to completely remove intrurrupts for the game as many are calling for. I offered a possible solution.. However, the intended effect is for these inturrupts to WORK for manipulators. This intended effect had unintended consequences (as often happens in Champions Online) but you are calling for an extreme over-correction (as often happens in Champions Online)
Interrupts are not working on bosses at the moment. The interactive part that makes fights interesting in CO is almost completely depending on charge and maintain attacks. Learning to respond to those is the biggest learning curve we have in the gameplay. The tap attacks one can hardly respond to anyway, so I have to hope those will not kill me most of the time, and since they are much weaker they mostly will not (except for the cascades in the grav fight).
When it gets to the point that your play style is removing the interactive part of the boss fights for others, something is wrong. This is not something to gloss over or push aside as personal preference, you are promoting powers that will take the fun out of boss fights for others.
I have only seen circumstantial reasons why my concerns are not valid or important. That is not exactly my definition of a great debate either.
I do not consider your argument invalid nor unimportant. And "I don't like it" is an argument. It's just not compelling. Specifically in when it's a tentament to my counter argument that this opinion is based in bias against crowd control.
The fact that we're having this much discourse about it makes me consider inturrupt mechanics a valid concern.
There are some arguments that have come up that I think are completely compelling and I proposed solutions to them. There are other arguments that have come up that are not compelling and I attempt to dispel the chaff from the substance.
The opinion that Inturrupts "should not work on endgame content, goes directly against the raison d'etre of the mechanic.. therefore I have simplified the debate to "Inturrupts should exist" and "Inturrupts shouldn't exist". Those arguing that inturrupts should not exist have the burden of proof in this case because they have existed without this level of discourse since the inception of the game on live servers.
And any any court, besides that of public opinion, I simply don't think the arguments made are compelling. This is a simple case of the majority taking the rights of the minority. The right of controllers to be able to take effect in endgame content.
This is where the misunderstanding lies, interrupts do not stop bosses from attacking you outright, everyone seems to capitalize on the fact that it affects bosses and not realise that it has to be timed right or the interrupt effect will cease to work. Applying an interrupt before a boss uses a charge attack does not prevent them from doing just that. You have to INTERRUPT them at the right time for it to be effective.
CC is not dedicated to sucking the "fun" out of content, interrupts as part of CC are working as they were designed, I really hope the only things Crush fixes about these powers is:
1) The fact that they could remove forms like IDF
2) They can auto disable blocking if you are blocking and get hit with an interrupt.
3) Mental Storm's healing is as Kaizerin said (which I then tested) is very powerful. There have been suggestions to fix this by Gamehobo.
You could say that DPS builds suck the fun out of tanking because they steal all the agro, or that being able to heal sucks the fun out of dying, which IMO there is none.
By interaction with bosses I assume you mean attacking. Attacking is affected but not stopped dead in its tracks due to CC, bosses can still attack and with effective mob control and power usage can still kill controllers even through these "Content killing CC powers" which is a fallicy, the content does not just die or stop responding to attacks like Gravitar did to Smoke Grenade pre nerf. None of the CC powers have that level of content killing power like Smoke Grenade did. The most they can do is to interrupt charged attacks.
I'm pretty sure a number of players do not define dying as fun, I know I don't. I like a challenge, but if the challenge includes my prefered playstyle lying down dead in the gutter with the rest of the CC system, that is sucking the fun out of CO for me and others who chose to play that way. It would also be a large waste of Gentleman Crush's time since he spent a lot of time reading feedback and getting the dev team to make these powers just for them to be under utilized and end up as a waste of his time, because of unfounded and baseless fears.
I have tested these powers and they dont kill content, they simply work as intended. If people refuse to see how this can be useful or satisfy a certain group of players with a prefered playstyle then that is their own problem not anyone elses.
Working against change for the better by improving certain mechanics and giving dissuasive feedback is disheartening simply because it is not bestial (which does need help) or tanking styles (which also need help), is really biased. I play a variety of play styles, clearly not as much as some people do, but enough to view myself as balanced. I can see where things are lacking and CC since On Alert has been one of these areas, labelling me biased because I hold an opinion in favor of giving life to a dying mechanic is short sighted.
((On a different ish note...can Mental Storm be renamed to Mind Control? It is primarily a paralyze, a mechanic which telepathy was sorely lacking. I feel that since we already have one storm (Ego Storm) Perhaps a name change from Mental Storm to Mind Control is suitable IMO, and perhaps call the heal from it instead of Ebbing Lifeforce to Ego Drain or Brain Drain? <-- Suggestion here
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