Hey, a friend of mine just said this to me and I like how it sounded, be it I'm crazy or I'm thinking of how a freeform system works, but...
The Devs need to look at individual powers,
not just as whole powersets.
This is a freeform system, endless combination, not to say you can't make innerset synergies, just you need to look at each power.
Thats exactly what they are doing, I recall Crush telling me power tweaks/additions were only happening where he could see there was need and no reviews are scheduled after telepathy additions.
Thats exactly what they are doing, I recall Crush telling me power tweaks/additions were only happening where he could see there was need and no reviews are scheduled after telepathy additions.
The problem is at hand that they fail to see crossset synergies they develop.
I got a message from a friend to come check out the new stuff on PTS. Now admittedly I was unable to try out the new carrier defense mission, however the rest has me underwhelmed to say the least.
Telepathy is still mostly useless in my eyes. The new powers (barring the pets which buff, and even some of them) do not have any real role in CO. Absurdly low damage DoTs which give some stacking effect after the DoT expires is laughable. Worse is the new blast power to detonate said effects. Even the cosmics don't live long enough against a high dps team to make full use of all 10 stacks.
I think the new DoT gameplay is very new and very fun. The damage is low and pitifully so on purpose. Each tick of each power is tiny, but combined they are an army of Damage over Time. To get the benefit from this you'll want to take penetration through Superstating INT, using Congress of selves, Buying Malvan Gauntlets or even a combination of all three.
Its to be noted that the damage provided is about 2/5 that of fully specc'd infernal epidemic spam. However, these work through sleep effects which is a powerful component.
But hey, they interrupt! That's good right? Well, not so much. To make these powers as they are now worthwhile would require bosses/mobs to be buffed to the point where interrupting is essential. Otherwise teams will pass over a very low damage character in favor of a higher damage one. It also brings up the question as to how Cryptic will handle interrupts on a larger scale. Will it be possible to make a punching bag out of any mob with enough interrupt spam?
You bring up a valid point about Interrupts. They are the "boss fight" mechanic used by telepaths now (seeing how they have no innate mitigation through their passive or powers. However this does mean that more enemies need click activated attacks that hit before their Schick attacks.
The pets that buff should have something in the tooltips stating they scale with Endurance.
I agree. I still haven't looked at numbers for these. How much does 300 END provide for each pet? The UI is still extremely clunky.. For any player without the ability to swap builds (silver players) this is extremely disheartening.
Vehicles! I didn't like them before, and nothing I've seen yet has changed my mind. They're clunky and ugly in both looks and functionality. The addition of yet more mods to farm/grind is not appealing either. My personal take on vehicles should be taken with a grain of salt since I've been against them from the start. I'd MUCH rather dev resources be spent on new zones, content, power sets and costumes.
I again completely agree. I just don't see the benefit to the current vehicles (become devices by any other name still suck as lame) in the bottom line of the game. I doubt they bring much revenue to the company and are severely lacking in the "fun" category. The gameplay of "Vehicle Alerts" will be ignored by well over half the game population in 6 months.
The problem is at hand that they fail to see crossset synergies they develop.
I see plenty of opportunity for cross-set synergy for almost ALL of the newer powers. Passives are becoming more set specific, which I emphatically support.
I see it as "The devs are no longer PUNISHING players who play within their chosen framework". The cherry-pickers will always have their FoTM builds.. but now more "concept players" have options to keep up with the performance of cherry-pickers.. this INCLUDES concepts that do not stay in framework.
I like the idea of the DoT heavy powers with debuffs attached. However I'd much rather see each tick of a DoT apply their respective debuff or more likely apply the debuff on application of the DoT. Also, the current DoT damage could probably be doubled with small to no repercussions. If I'm going to give up 3-4 power slots for DoTs plus another power slot for the detonate blast (and the adv points to rank them up!) then I want to see a good return on my investment.
Detonating the HoT debuff with Mind Blast heals nearby enemies.
As for nullifying it for everyone, I agree, but I, as a telepath, am a support player. I want the effects of my gameplay to affect my teammates as much as me. The inturrupt mechanic is my only viable mechanic to aid my team in boss fights as a controller. I can perhaps agree to having this only work on Supervillain+ enemies with Manipulator.
I do not wish to see Crowd control become OP for the common build. People who specialize in crowd control however sacrifice alot in terms of "Self Viability" because their role is NOT a selfish one, but one of support.
The crowd controller is much squishier and vulnerable than the healer because it takes so much more TIME in combat for crowd control effects than it does for heals (dont remind me of the 1 second delay on incapacitates). The powers all have cooldowns and often dont take full effect without being fully charged. This is the equivalent of every heal in the game working like Psionic Healing on a cooldown.. It would be hell for them.
Because crowd controllers are SO much more vulnerable in the defense department, The need as much help as they can get at usable "distractions" in combat. I think the new play-style represents this well. But again I agree that Manipulator users are the target demographic for such power.. not the common player who sacrificed only one power point.
I do like it how it is right now, everything is ok and functioning great except for the potential rez/major heal to enemy that detonating stacks via Mind Break has.
I'd like to suggest that Mental Storm as it is now a paralyze (awesome change btw very nice ), undergo a name change from Mental Storm to Mind Control.
The reason why is because after a very long while Telepathy has a paralyze and we already have one Storm (Ego Storm) having an actual control power like this Paralyze is a very good idea IMO. Ego Storm whilst it used to be very good the Incapacitate system has crippled it considerably, having a good paralyze like
By the way, does anyone know the intended radius of Mind Control? (Mental Storm) I cant seem to get the AoE component of the paralyze to proc unless the foes are very close to each other...I guess it forces you to be more selective about whose mind you control...
Why are you people so totally- I, can't take it anymore.
All they did was take one of the most moronic gimmicks ever, become devices, and applied the WORST grind mechanic that has ever been seen in CO to it: Mods. Quite literally crafted travel power grind but with 10x worse drop rates AND the ability to lose components.
How or why any player accepts this as is, is entirely beyond me. Are you really all that desperate for anything new that you're going to have this spoonfed to you?
I think I give up...
I gave up already 2 months ago.
But hey .. don't forget .. they are just Prototypes ... and we get new rooms in oure hideouts
and the C-Store on PTS will return in "one of the next" patches
ANd they are still become devices, no matter what people say, until i don't see my character
and don't have access to the powers of my character.
Okay, I have one big superficial gripe with the new Telepathy powers.
Simply being near the manifestations, even when you're not in a team, grants you their buffs. While not a problem in and of itself, the explosion of glowing on your character and that GRATING, droning sound get on the nerves quickly. If someone leaves these things hanging around where you want to be, tough luck.
So, if you could nix the VFX/SFX or make it team-only, please. Pick one, I don't care which. That was a problem with the original auras back at launch, too. They'd apply to everyone around you, resulting in all sorts of FX spilling onto your character.
I had been fighting for some defensive components to Telepathy when I was reminded that telepathy is "supposed" to be squishy. I had tried to create a character using telepathy powers with high defenses (to show up that uppity Mind Archtype) but the devs have done a great job at making that extremely hard to do.
I'm always very interested in non-traditional approaches.. like a SS Con Telepath. I tried it and it was a miserable experience.
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I don't disagree with you that enemies need more click activated "BOOM". But any charge activated boom is designed to be interrupted for a purpose. The fact that no one flurried up about it when backhand chop came out or even back when Clobber had a chance to interrupt makes me ask.. why hate on telepathy's ability to do it?
Because they're good at it? Well.. if there is one set that is to be taken for Crowd Control effects (even crappy ones like inturrupt) it is this framework.
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Again I concede that there should be more than a one power investment to interrupt legendary villains just as there is with holds. The obvious choice is to put regulate this ability to players with the Manipulator toggle.
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A larger point:
The argument that it is "Selfish" to be good at a certain play-style.. I've seen what I call "God builds" do crazy things.. but you don't hear people complaining about "You killed the enemy too quick making it impossible for me to also enjoy fighting them. (DPS)" or "You tanking Gravitar solo makes me waiting to revive boring (Tanking)" but every time its a support specific mechanic people get up in arms. Ebon Sigils for instance .. "You're making this too easy for everyone by being good at debuffing the enemies damage" and you don't even need to be in Support role for those! The same crowd who refuses to see the imbalance of Sentinel Aura are now saying that interrupts, a crowd control mechanic made SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of fighting BIG bosses, are (just now) too effective. If interrupts don't work on these enemies.. who are they supposed to work on?! I simply point out that the argument is not congruent with previous sentiment.. where was this outrage when it was for offensive builds (Clobber then Backhand Chop)? Next they'll be arguing for a nerf of Skarns Bane and Celestial Cleansing.. and ALL debuffs.
I smell a whiff of bias. Players of this game have displayed a general distaste for support players and support mechanics (crowd control specifically more than the rest). So much so that they CHEER the creation of incapacitates (I may never forgive players for that one..). There are play-styles I generally despise (anything with a blade) in but I have yet to call for a systemic nerf of them.
Ahh, but people did complain when interrupts were spammable. The advantage on Ice Cage used to allow chained interrupts but was later fixed with an internal cooldown. The new telepathy powers aren't as bad as Ice Cage w/ adv used to be, but it also wouldn't take much effort to work with another player or two and achieve the same effect.
A percentage chance for all interrupts to work on SV+ would probably be one of the easier "fixes" but the least desirable in my opinion. Interrupts should be reliable, as long as the conditions for use are met. Anything less and the interrupt might as well not exist in the first place.
Maybe Cryptic should implement some sort of conditional interrupt immunity on all SV+ enemies? Something along the lines of the Purple Triangles of Doom from CoX. There would be a window in which interrupts could affect bosses, and outside that window interrupts would not work (and yes, I realize in CoX even with the PToD up you could still stack enough CC to make it work but CO CC/interrupts doesn't stack the same way). This way interrupts could still be useful while not turning SV+ mobs into little more than giant bags of hp for the entire fight.
Another possibility would be taking something from GW2. All CC can work on most bosses, but you have to use CC to remove their stacks of CC protection. After any CC successfully lands, the CC protection stacks are reset. This is my favored idea as it leaves when to actually CC completely in the hands of the player. On a side note, knocks would likely have to be not considered CC for the purposes of this change as there are many spammable knock powers.
I don't disagree with you that enemies need more click activated "BOOM". But any charge activated boom is designed to be interrupted for a purpose. The fact that no one flurried up about it when backhand chop came out or even back when Clobber had a chance to interrupt makes me ask.. why hate on telepathy's ability to do it?
I saw such complaints. Perhaps it wasnt important to you and so you didnt take notice ? I think you mentioned bias somewhere in this post ?
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A larger point:
The argument that it is "Selfish" to be good at a certain play-style..
Strawman argument there. He didnt claim that it was selfish to be good at a certain playstyle. He said, "The way you have describe crowd control is selfish, you want to take the fight out of a fight. You seemed just fine with being able to single handedly reduce the level 60 Destroyers into harmless models, a fight intended for a zone. No one person should be able to do that, no ten people should be able to do that. That's selfish."
Essentially he pointed out that one person wanting to take the fight away from the, potentially, 99 other people in the zone is selfish. Big difference.
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Commentary above.
I completely agree, especially with the highlighted portion.
Interrupts are a great variable in fights designed with the realization that they exist. None (that I have seen) of CO's fights are.
Admittedly, my view of crowd control has been skewed ever since Pokemon ("Thunder Wave doesn't do damage? Then why would I even WANT it!?") so I really don't have anything smart to say about crowd control.
My pipe dream is to have mechanics like the combat in Resident Evil 5 where you could hit an enemy in the leg and they'd fall to their knees and you could run behind them and break their neck. Now THAT'S an interrupt.
Currently the situation in CO, it used to be ok actually, until Incapacitates lived up to its name and did just that to the CC system.
Putting Control into the mix of battle does not ruin or mess with content. These powers were designed originally to do just that. Control Crowds of foes or individual ones. Content balance is already non existant with the god builds out there and the Imbue abusers etc not to mention the jets and summon devices, those are examples which would ruin content balance, trying to ressurect a mechanic in the game which originally had as much a place in CO as DPS or tanking did is a very good idea. Even though I do like this power I will use it as an example of something which has an effect on content. Shadow Strike, when I was lvl 11, I was able to one shot Zoe Loft, tell me how putting a sleep or an "incapacitate" on her will remove any issue or content, as far as things go CC like Sleep or Paralyze functions cant kill NPCs.
How does putting a large mob to sleep or holding down a powerful foe for a time, nullify the use other team mates. You speak as if CC can out damage a DPS, or stop a tank from tanking. They don't. They actually improve a teams situation "through various effects".
Even in comics and just reading or watching media associated with superheroes shows that telepathy and control of masses were very much linked if not most times seen as one thing. Telepathy's upcomming ability to shine seems to be down trodden by some peoples anger at other sets they felt should be looked at first, when in actual fact Telepathy was the worst off powerset. As a telepath, I know my role and what I should be able to provide for my team. Crowd Control I think initially was designed to remove the burden or help with the burden of keeping everyone above 50% HP, locking down opponents or controlling foes on CC which still works is a good mechanic. Interrupts which are comming to telepathy frankly are a much needed blessing to the powerset, what kind of telepath can see an attack comming/ building up and doesnt try to stop it?!
Personally, I am glad CC and Telepathy simultaneously are getting a boost in some ways, it's been a long time comming. These new powers will give hope to not only older CO players who enjoy support playstyle but also to new CoH players who enjoyed the Controller aspect of that game and have come here looking for something similar.
Admittedly, my view of crowd control has been skewed ever since Pokemon ("Thunder Wave doesn't do damage? Then why would I even WANT it!?") so I really don't have anything smart to say about crowd control.
My pipe dream is to have mechanics like the combat in Resident Evil 5 where you could hit an enemy in the leg and they'd fall to their knees and you could run behind them and break their neck. Now THAT'S an interrupt.
Gentleman Crush spawned a Gravitar and the interrupts did in fact work on her. When I asked him he responded that they ARE intended to work on high end content. I have not yet been able to get a queue to pop on PTS to test it on the instance version of Gravitar.. but if there is a boss created that does not respond to interrupts it is a bug and should be reported.
I don't apologize for wanting to have fun in high end content as a telepath.. because the alternative is that my character is a paper doll .. looking pretty and doing nothing useful.
I simply don't understand the bias of when it is Crowd Control people want it to burn in a fire, but I am appreciative of developers who are trying to be just. If you dont want to play a telepath, you don't have to... in fact VERY FEW PEOPLE DO. I could name on one hand the number of people choosing to use Manipulator. But I am REFUSING to go back to the dark ages of "We hate crowd control". Period.
With all due respect.. take the bias somewhere else.
Another possibility would be taking something from GW2. All CC can work on most bosses, but you have to use CC to remove their stacks of CC protection. After any CC successfully lands, the CC protection stacks are reset. This is my favored idea as it leaves when to actually CC completely in the hands of the player. On a side note, knocks would likely have to be not considered CC for the purposes of this change as there are many spammable knock powers.
I can appreciate this system. I am still awaiting a full review of the crowd control system.. One that is qualitative. I think this progressive threshold system would work as long as it were based on the QUALITY of the holds placed not the number of holds.
When the new system is released to PTS it will require alot of player feedback. Hopefully more than "I hate Crowd Control"
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I do however agree that content and AI should be designed with interrupts in mind (because as long as I have a subscription they aren't going anywhere).
The way which it has been for ages up until now is that everyone trivialized Crowd Control, ever since it got shot in the face with The Incapacitate System. Every other playstyle on LIVE currently trumps CC. Wanting CC to be an effective part of game play is not going to impact on content. Why shouldnt interrupts work on bosses? Your idea of "fun" has been brought into question before hand by not just myself with regards to your blocking nerf idea, I still wonder what you call fun.. for me, I think making powers which fit thematically and have use is fun, I expect my telepath to be able to do these sorts of things already, being a useful part of a team rather than being a staple DPS or Tank, CC will rise to the occassion and be part of a team.
If you dislike the thought of telepaths being useful then I can understand why you dislike this idea so much.
With regards to your earlier reply where you labelled my post "Stuff". I will stress this next point. CC does NOT remove functionality from other class playstyles, you may be seeing this from a slightly wrong angle, the CC component will not render everything under control at once, my example was referring to two large groups, whilst your team deals with one, in order to stop both from swamping everyone and putting major stress on the healer and tank, one group is controlled by two CCers in the team. The DPS, Tank and Healer can then focus on one group then move onto the next, I see no problem with this.
Stopping Gravitar from one shotting everyone with her Insane bubble of golden doom will allow more people to attack, resulting in a happier team. Again I see no problem here.
Crowd Control will be just that, CC would not become "absurdly OP" since when is paralyzing or sleeping a foe "absurdly OP"? Making CC FINALLY work on high end content removes the massive usefullness gap that it currently has compared to other play styles in CO. Besides, with the amount of damage output people can put out, compare it to pre On Alertm I would have said 16k was "absurdly OP" and yet my Tempest can almost put out that much damage and some builds are hitting 25K hits etc. Not much in game can withstand a 25k solid hit, apart from cosmics/ very high or powerful bosses.
Your claim that the implementation of basically powers which do their job but on all is content destroying is baseless. The Mega D's which were around when telepathy was on PTS were not "reduced to our personal dummies" they were not without harsh damage either. Interrupts from Telepathy actually helped alot of people stay alive if they were unable to see the impending doom wave from the Mega D.
If a Dev like Crush had said Interrupts were not meant to work on high level content then there would be a problem BUT he has (Thankfully) blown some life into this mechanic and hopefully will continue to do so, so it can be as potent as DPS, Healing and other playstyles.
Having said this, Perhaps an AI update to take into account interrupts would be useful.
I want a just system.. period. No more casting powers that have 0 effect. If it is unsuccessful at using a hold then it should make it more possible to become successful.
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I have documented evidence of every single nerf to Crowd Control because I lived them. I have been playing crowd control from the second week the game was released. My view on the mechanic is first person where many other players are 2nd person (how someone elses toon affects them) or worse completely removed 3rd person perspective.
I am talking nuts and bolts. Crowd Control is a support mechanic, one meant to aid the team. The issue is not and has never been the strength of the crowd control mechanics, it has always been the available resistance to them (for Critters and Players).
I (more than most) do not want to return to the days of "pick one power for max strength crowd control". But Just as players can invest in Tanking, Damage and Healing.. I chose to invest in Crowd Control. It comes with less benefit to damage, defense and healing than ANY other mechanic. Many players are trying to make this sacrifice to get a team force multiplier irrelevant. This has been the history of Champions Online.
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Kaisern, to answer you specifically, no I do not hold a bias. I have seen your build and it performs quite well and can likely solo the entire content of Champions Online. Rather than call for a nerf of your build, I simply want the ability for MY chosen mechanic (not tanking) to be as competitive.
My mind is not plugged. But when it comes to the Crowd Control mechanic I am simply pointing out that the public opinion is not representative of a just system.
Going to pop in here and say I'm in support of and agree with just about everything Jaybezz is saying here. Not everything, but the core point behind it and many of the details are spot on. Especially the part about people being completely blind about how biased they're being, crowd control has always been a target of everything and everyone since launch, as has support as a whole to a lesser degree. It seems like anything that makes it possible to make a character who's not centered primarily on healing as a means of support is targeted by every other group but those that actually play or want to play them.
Regardless of this, support builds based around debuffing, buffing, crowd control and other non-healing centered playstyles should be viable. In the hands of a character at least partially built around control, said crowd control should be effective on bosses no matter the type. Boss fights are a substantial portion of most content, and with more recent content featuring a boss fight as a large portion of if not all of the objective, it's more pressing now than ever that this niche be a viable against them.
Also, as a side note, no matter how many times people want to throw around "straw man," hand waving an argument isn't a viable way to win it. Just because YOU don't like the argument you're facing doesn't mean you can act like two words can make it go away. It's not an internet argument "I Win" button, it doesn't make you look smarter, it doesn't make you look right, it just makes you look like a troll. Stop doing it.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Finally got enough players together to try the carrier defense mission. Overall it's pretty good, if a bit chaotic... which I like.
A working mini-map, complete with pings when something is under attack would be helpful.
The team up "function" is still a steaming pile of poo. If more missions like this are to be made a real raid UI NEEDS to happen.
No more sking down to level 30 please. It's very annoying when most new content sidekicks us down to 30. Why bother getting to level 40?
Not sure if it's a bug, but after killing the Mega D with about 1.5 minutes left the only mob spawning was one of those helicopter drone carriers up by the nose. It would respawn almost immediately after destruction.
And finally on a side note... would it be possible to let the shadows from the Summon Shadows power and zombies from March of the Dead fly? Maybe change their graphics to something that makes more sense than flying zombies and shadows.
if there is a boss created that does not respond to interrupts it is a bug and should be reported.
I hope we will not go down that path, removing the 'on your toes' aspect of boss fights for everyone except the few people using interrupts is not something I would welcome.
If it worked like some soft disable (slowing charge times or something like that) on bosses it would be ok with me.
Not sure if it's a bug, but after killing the Mega D with about 1.5 minutes left the only mob spawning was one of those helicopter drone carriers up by the nose. It would respawn almost immediately after destruction.
Interesting. When I played it a few weeks ago (when you had to protect the flying delivery trucks), mobs would constantly go after the engines in all four stages, meaning you'd have to have one person on each side watching them at all times. Surprised they changed that (or as you suggested, it bugged).
I hope we will not go down that path, removing the 'on your toes' aspect of boss fights for everyone except the few people using interrupts is not something I would welcome.
If it worked like some soft disable (slowing charge times or something like that) on bosses it would be ok with me.
Surely then it wouldnt be so much an interrupt than some form of weird time control >_>"
If it were implemented tho I would hope that players using Manipulator still get the real deal interrupt.
Then what would be stopping those from almost completely locking down a boss fight? If that happened on a fight like gravitar, it could be pretty boring for the rest of the team?
Edit.
Reading back some more, I see others have expressed this concern too.
Having a support in my team is something I would prefer being glad about, not be a reason to consider leaving and do some other thing.
Well, this seems to highlight the need to do a CC review.
For the record, i don't like the design philosophy that CC only works when you don't need it. Whenever the CC review happens, I think a lot of this can be sorted out. (maybe interrupts give stacks or resist?)
I haven't looked at every post, but it seems that people are arguing about how interrupts are OP in a theoretical since. Has any one actually shown that interrupts break every thing?
kaizerin, your never shy about posting videos.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
This i very much dislike. Not trying to pick on you, just noting that this is not the way to go forward with Crowd Control.
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I dont hear qualms from players teamed with AoPM or AoRP support players.. they make the gameplay just as trivial and yet no one calls for their systemic nerf.
Auras and Heals are championed as support mechanics because players get to see their own toon and say "look how BA I am". I suspect the reason that players have consistently been against powerful debuffs is because they dont take the time to see the value of them.
The fact is debuffs (specifically holds) are entirely harder than heals or auras to use in combat. I've pointed out before.. they have much more vulnerability in terms of time and lack the defense of health regeneration. This weakness is offset by their ability to affect enemies..
I am not arguing that AI should not be updated to deal with inturrupts. In fact I support the sentiment greatly.
SPECIFICALLY to the point of crowd controllers (people who use Manipulator Toggle especially) they do not get the major offense of any of the damage toggles.. they do not get the defense of heals nor defense toggles.. And you are claiming that the ONE defense that the devs smartly gave them to fight in endgame content be removed.. because it is effective at doing what it is designed to do for those it's designed to do it for? And the only justification you give to kill off this gameplay is that it's "a great support mechanic"?
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Lets be real. Debuffing support is not the same as Buffing Support. Once a target is held.. he's held. He's not going to (in the current system) get "MORE held". Hes not going to get "More inturrupted". The real truth is for most players.. playing a controller will almost always mean you are casting powers that do nothing. Having two telepaths on a team is the worst possible scenario because it means they are working against each other (thus why the system of 30 debuffs was created so as to not discourage teaming). Without the ability to inturrupt, you are essentially asking for them to kill off all control because it makes the game too easy for you.
If you cant see the bias in this then we will have to agree to disagree.
Well, this seems to highlight the need to do a CC review.
For the record, i don't like the design philosophy that CC only works when you don't need it. Whenever the CC review happens, I think a lot of this can be sorted out. (maybe interrupts give stacks or resist?)
I haven't looked at every post, but it seems that people are arguing about how interrupts are OP in a theoretical since. Has any one actually shown that interrupts break every thing?
kaizerin, your never shy about posting videos.
CC review, Stealth Review, Vehicle review, AI review, Lair review, Powerset reviews...there are a butt load of reviews needed.
If CC did get the KB treatment it would just be another addition to the existing dead CC mechanic and would make having more than one or two holds or interrupts in a build useless, thereby nullifying the amount of hours of work which has been put into making these powers. Wanting control in gameplay as a decent mechanic is no more wrong than wanting a high powered DPS or highly useful rezzer/ healer. The new mechanics which are comming in allow for CC to be a valid part of gameplay, interrupts do not stop enemies from attacking generally, the only prevent usually painful/devastating charge up attacks. If you really think CC is such a problem simply don't team with Controllers. Its a very simple solution.
I'd disagree here, putting CC in the game doesnt remove gamplay, it actually expands different avenues to play content. I could say that having DPS builds which can easily hit for 16k is a concern about trivializing game content, because DPS as it stands in most respects is very very powerful, a coordinated assault against a group of enemies by a DPS team is deadly to be involved in. As Gamehobo already stated a team of two telepaths is very counterproductive as one is always in some fashion weakening the others holds, generally the flow of battle and progress isnt there like it would be for DPS or tank builds working together. This new style of controlling abilities will stop this blatant failure. The new powers are not forced upon anyone, only those who want to use it. If people feel that CC is "OP" then they can go and team with non controllers and enjoy "real content".
Play stlye is subjective to each player, as I am sure you are aware. No two players are the same in terms of what they want to be able to do. Some want to play ranged high damage builds, CO says OK!, Some want to play high HP near juggernaut like unstoppablity tank builds, CO says OK!, Some want to play hard hitting melee builds or high support healing builds, CO also says OK!, BUT when it comes to people who want to play Controllers in a team as a part of the support function, CO generally says NO, now that Gentleman Crush and the Devs have worked hard to porvide a niche for Controllers, everyone starts complaining? How is that fair? Why shouldnt an old play style be rekindled? The answer is there is no reason. Simply because they feel control will turn everything into their own personal dummies. This is not the case. Yes Crowd Control like the new system will be powerful and as potent as in game DPS (I hope), I dont see any issue here.
Having two telepaths on a team is the worst possible scenario because it means they are working against each other (thus why the system of 30 debuffs was created so as to not discourage teaming). Without the ability to inturrupt, you are essentially asking for them to kill off all control because it makes the game too easy for you.
If you cant see the bias in this then we will have to agree to disagree.
Thinking back to Mentella & Kontrol vs Slave Zero?
We should have recorded it, its a testament to how bad CC's current state is EVEN with high control on your part.
The only form of Crowd Control which is extremely potent and hasnt been nerfed yet is the ability to mute people, now that's crowd control >_>"
Play stlye is subjective to each player, as I am sure you are aware. No two players are the same in terms of what they want to be able to do. Some want to play ranged high damage builds, CO says OK!, Some want to play high HP near juggernaut like unstoppablity tank builds, CO says OK!, Some want to play hard hitting melee builds or high support healing builds, CO also says OK!, BUT when it comes to people who want to play Controllers in a team as a part of the support function, CO generally says NO, now that Gentleman Crush and the Devs have worked hard to porvide a niche for Controllers, everyone starts complaining? How is that fair? Why shouldnt an old play style be rekindled? The answer is there is no reason. Simply because they feel control will turn everything into their own personal dummies. This is not the case. Yes Crowd Control like the new system will be powerful and as potent as in game DPS (I hope), I dont see any issue here.
The turning bosses in dummies is a very big concern, can you explain how interrupts are going to be limited to prevent that?
All those other player have a small effect on my play style, I still not to block, and avoid, and I still need to be smart if I want to survive. If only the controller builds are going to have to respond to charge attacks, all others will have a greatly diminished experience.
You say this is not the case, how is it not? Controllers needing viable options is not the question, I understand they do and agree.
I haven't looked at every post, but it seems that people are arguing about how interrupts are OP in a theoretical since. Has any one actually shown that interrupts break every thing?
kaizerin, your never shy about posting videos.
Don't ask for this, all this ever results in is someone posting a video of their current whine fest functioning under above ideal conditions. You'll never see a video that represents the average masses, or even in some cases above average but unsuitable in the selected test, because it would prove them wrong.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
Enemy-focused support (crowd control, mainly) is the only support style that requires the playstyle of others to be affected.
If you have AoE CC and strong AoE damage, either the AoE CC is made redundant or the AoE damage from a single player gets nerfed to where using AoE CC is valuable-enough to have a spot on the team.
If you've got single-target CC, either you're going to be trivializing content (like when that one Ice power whose name I forget could interrupt anything with no cooldown) or you're going to have no effect for the majority of the fight (like current CC on legendaries).
Alternatively, if you make either form of CC "too strong", you get the all-Controller/Defender teams that are buffing themselves to insane levels and making sure their enemies can't retaliate in any truly threatening way.
It's binary-enough that it's a very delicate balancing act, and most implementations don't get it right. People are against it because of the history attached, both here and in other games.
They could just rework the debuff system to make it actually useful (like with old Svengali's Guile), but "debuff-on-hold-attempt-even-if-it-fails" has been unpopular enough amongst the crowd-control crowd that the existence of the spec tree options that do that has been pretty much ignored.
TL; DR version: Player-focused support means that the vast majority of players in the game don't have to change their playstyle to accommodate it, therefore it's going to be more popular.
This is the kind of bias I hate to see. It's easy to call for nerfs when they don't directly impact YOUR build, but failing to consider how it affects the player base as a whole.
The whole idea of support is to have a significant impact on the fights without heavily leaning on damage or tanking, as in healing and crowd control.
Let's face it, once you've got a def passive and some self-healing, the majority of the content is trivialized. It's still possible to tank over 30 mobs and still not break a sweat if you're setup for it. The better one understands the game mechanics, the less challenge one faces. Most of the time, you don't even need a def passive.
There's no trinity here, so talks of nullifying content is simply a bias. Capable players can breeze through anything in CO, short of utterly broken (read bugged) content.
Why is it ok for a nearly unkillable in pve tank to never be at risk of death, but it's wrong for a squishy to have the capacity to interrupt or hold a legendary or cosmic? Do you not see the bias here, its fine if you get to play the way you do, but if someone like jaybezz wants to run a troller style he gets screwed over.
I'm pretty sure you played CoH too Kai, and the way I remember it, short of running around in Granite, the tanks tended to be pretty reliant on the CC to make teamfights manageable, being that unlike here, none of the tanks could magically heal endlessly (or at all for that matter).
Think about it, is having the actual potential to hold/interrupt legendaries or cosmics going to suddenly eliminate this magical difficulty that doesn't exist to begin with? Since On-Alert hit, challenge for me personally has merely been how much I have to carry a team (if at all). There isn't a single task in this game that a well-groomed 5 (yes 5) man team can't get through smoothly, and most of the time you could get by with less.
I'd say plenty of people are disappointed that CC only works on stuff you never really need it for to begin with, if at all. Being able to hold and stun and interrupt the big baddies won't do much outside of some damage mitigation, which is less about need (since the tanks should have it covered regardless) and more just for the sake of being able to mez a cosmic and feel a bit uber in the process.
This is the kind of bias I hate to see. It's easy to call for nerfs when they don't directly impact YOUR build, but failing to consider how it affects the player base as a whole.
The whole idea of support is to have a significant impact on the fights without heavily leaning on damage or tanking, as in healing and crowd control.
Let's face it, once you've got a def passive and some self-healing, the majority of the content is trivialized. It's still possible to tank over 30 mobs and still not break a sweat if you're setup for it. The better one understands the game mechanics, the less challenge one faces. Most of the time, you don't even need a def passive.
There's no trinity here, so talks of nullifying content is simply a bias. Capable players can breeze through anything in CO, short of utterly broken (read bugged) content.
Why is it ok for a nearly unkillable in pve tank to never be at risk of death, but it's wrong for a squishy to have the capacity to interrupt or hold a legendary or cosmic? Do you not see the bias here, its fine if you get to play the way you do, but if someone like jaybezz wants to run a troller style he gets screwed over.
I'm pretty sure you played CoH too Kai, and the way I remember it, short of running around in Granite, the tanks tended to be pretty reliant on the CC to make teamfights manageable, being that unlike here, none of the tanks could magically heal endlessly (or at all for that matter).
Think about it, is having the actual potential to hold/interrupt legendaries or cosmics going to suddenly eliminate this magical difficulty that doesn't exist to begin with? Since On-Alert hit, challenge for me personally has merely been how much I have to carry a team (if at all). There isn't a single task in this game that a well-groomed 5 (yes 5) man team can't get through smoothly, and most of the time you could get by with less.
I'd say plenty of people are disappointed that CC only works on stuff you never really need it for to begin with, if at all. Being able to hold and stun and interrupt the big baddies won't do much outside of some damage mitigation, which is less about need (since the tanks should have it covered regardless) and more just for the sake of being able to mez a cosmic and feel a bit uber in the process.
I see this post...and I want to hug SeCKSEgai now.
All of this. ALL OF IT.
As far as I'm concerned, I think the ability to mez cosmics/legendaries should stem from via Manipulator and/or specializations, since thats what seperates a Controller from, well anything else. But CC should work on them.
T
I'm pretty sure you played CoH too Kai, and the way I remember it, short of running around in Granite, the tanks tended to be pretty reliant on the CC to make teamfights manageable, being that unlike here, none of the tanks could magically heal endlessly (or at all for that matter).
Um all tanking sets in CoH had a self heal as far as I can remember fire, Invul and earth certainly did.
Further many of the sets could reach levels of survivability that exceeded what we have here especially when you added in specialised IOs then in a team environment add in a defender (something we have no true equivalent of in CO) and you had silly survivability.
As was mentioned earlier players used to have the ability to endlessly spam an interrupt with Ice Cage + adv. That was later fixed (or nerfed depending on your view of things) with an internal cooldown. Also remember when Thunderbolt Lunge's adv was a disable? Which worked on everything? That was also fixed/nerfed since the devs deemed rendering single targets unable to act at all (with a bit of team coordination) was not working as intended.
We've had the ability to more or less perma-lockdown mobs and players before. It's been fixed in the instances I can remember. Probably with good reason.
Playing a controller type character is fun. Being on the receiving end or playing with a controller who can perma-lockdown everything is not, in my opinion. When you remove the ability or need to react to the fight for full duration the risk of failure is removed for everyone except the controller. Some risk for everyone participating in the fight, however slight, is necessary.
What risk you say? Even with "unkillable" tanks and uber healers present other players generally need to do something to stay alive. No amount of tanking or healing will completely negate the need for other players in the area to react to the fight. Gravitar is a good example of this. "Unkillable" tanks sometimes die or lose aggro. Uber healers fail to keep everyone up because when all is said and done it's up to each individual player to stay alive. Tanking and healing help, but it's not guaranteed.
All that said, I'm not against controls being able to affect SV+ enemies. But there needs to be a system in place which prevents perma-lockdown. I outlined a few ideas in post #64. Comments, additions and new ideas are all welcome.
In CoH, Tanks didn't rely on CC. In CoH, Control and Tanks both filled the same role, in different ways. CC prevented damage by preventing enemies from dealing damage, while tanks didn't so much prevent damage as they made everything attack them while they were nigh on unkillable.
With CoH's culture, people didn't care so much. Some did, but there wasn't a grand display of hopping as if CC just stepped on the tank's toes or vise versa. In both games, CoH for sure and CO by observation, teaming is held by the majority to be a frivilous social device not a necessity to proceed. This means that either the hopping needs to stop, as no one is really stepping on anyones toes, or it just needs to be said that what some people want is content that cannot be done without certain combinations of builds and roles.
Either way, Crowd control should change. Players should get some benefit for having an ammount of hold health on the enemy. I personally think there should be two tiers of held. 100%-81% Hold health would be Tier 1, and 80%-1% would be Tier 2. Tier 1 would be held, and tier 2 would be tangled.
When held, all damage is stopped because the enemy can't attack. Once the hold health is below the Tier 1 level or if an enemy (I.E. Cosmic/Legendary) has a -hold health that makes them unable to be held, then they're tangled. Tangled would reduce the damage the enemy does by the percentage of hold health remaining (Multiplicitive with other damage reduction not additive). When a tangled enemy attacks, their damage is reduced by a percentage equal to the percentage of remaining health, and the entire damage of the attack is dealt to the hold. Player's can't hurt their own holds.
Take Gravitar for example, CC user hits her with a hold, but the french hussy's all to familiar with handcuffs, so she's not held. Now she tries to insta-gibb everyone with an 80K hit. All tangled up in the handcuffs, she isn't able to do the attack right and it doesn't hit as hard. Her protection would reduce the hold health to 80%, but she'd be tangled. Her next attack, which was the 80K one, would do 80k * (1-.8) = 16,000 damage instead. The hold would take 80k damage, and quite simply be dead. Gravitar would get hold resistance, like normal, and successive hold attempts would have less effect on her damage. Imagine a cap of hold health reduction that makes the a hold -start- at 5% health.
"But Jack!", you say, "What if multiple holders are on the same team?" Good question my curious friend, and simple as well. They'd both reduce her damage 80%, deal 80K to -each- hold, and she'd get hold protection from both. If the reduction is multiplicitive, she'd do the 16k we see from one kinky holder then the second person would reduce -that- to 3,200 damage. She'd never deal 0 damage, having multiple CCers on the same team would still be less damage than one CCer, and she'd get her protection faster to prevent trivializing her alert.
Now that looks like a lot, but think, that's one big attack. She can attack again after, and the CC player has to decide if they should maintain holds the entire time, or let protection expire and only apply for the big hits. It would also apply to a series of smaller hits. A tangled enemy attacking with a series of 5 500 damage hits. Assume 80% hold health for first tick and 2000 remaining hold health. The first would do 100 damage and leave 1500 hold health, the second would do 200 and leave 1000 hold health, the third 300 and 500, the fourth 400 and 0, and the fifth would do the full 500 damage.
And that's all for "Fifty shades of Grav!" or "How to make holds relevent in all content without making them shut down every enemy!"
I'm pretty sure you played CoH too Kai, and the way I remember it, short of running around in Granite, the tanks tended to be pretty reliant on the CC to make teamfights manageable, being that unlike here, none of the tanks could magically heal endlessly (or at all for that matter).
I dunno what CoH you played because I am sure most tanks, brutes, and scrappers would disagree with this. I know my Willpower brute would disagree with I generally tanked everything. CC was practically unecesarry tehre as it is in Champions. On that note, I think you are reading too far into Kai's post since Kai has never been a fan of one character being able to solo everything.
This is the kind of bias I hate to see. It's easy to call for nerfs when they don't directly impact YOUR build, but failing to consider how it affects the player base as a whole.
The whole idea of support is to have a significant impact on the fights without heavily leaning on damage or tanking, as in healing and crowd control.
Let's face it, once you've got a def passive and some self-healing, the majority of the content is trivialized. It's still possible to tank over 30 mobs and still not break a sweat if you're setup for it. The better one understands the game mechanics, the less challenge one faces. Most of the time, you don't even need a def passive.
There's no trinity here, so talks of nullifying content is simply a bias. Capable players can breeze through anything in CO, short of utterly broken (read bugged) content.
Why is it ok for a nearly unkillable in pve tank to never be at risk of death, but it's wrong for a squishy to have the capacity to interrupt or hold a legendary or cosmic? Do you not see the bias here, its fine if you get to play the way you do, but if someone like jaybezz wants to run a troller style he gets screwed over.
I'm pretty sure you played CoH too Kai, and the way I remember it, short of running around in Granite, the tanks tended to be pretty reliant on the CC to make teamfights manageable, being that unlike here, none of the tanks could magically heal endlessly (or at all for that matter).
Think about it, is having the actual potential to hold/interrupt legendaries or cosmics going to suddenly eliminate this magical difficulty that doesn't exist to begin with? Since On-Alert hit, challenge for me personally has merely been how much I have to carry a team (if at all). There isn't a single task in this game that a well-groomed 5 (yes 5) man team can't get through smoothly, and most of the time you could get by with less.
I'd say plenty of people are disappointed that CC only works on stuff you never really need it for to begin with, if at all. Being able to hold and stun and interrupt the big baddies won't do much outside of some damage mitigation, which is less about need (since the tanks should have it covered regardless) and more just for the sake of being able to mez a cosmic and feel a bit uber in the process.
DAYUM! Wow..I just also read this post...wow, thats fantastic! We finally agree on something!
I indeed share Blademasters Sentiments about this post :biggrin:
The turning bosses in dummies is a very big concern, can you explain how interrupts are going to be limited to prevent that?
All those other player have a small effect on my play style, I still not to block, and avoid, and I still need to be smart if I want to survive. If only the controller builds are going to have to respond to charge attacks, all others will have a greatly diminished experience.
You say this is not the case, how is it not? Controllers needing viable options is not the question, I understand they do and agree.
Yes, it is if it were an ACTUAL concern. Currently players cannot disable bosses like bosses can do to us. Mambo's in VB can use Big Voodoo blasts which disable players (Which has been nerfed ) We as controllers at best can paralyze someone some powers in a paralyzed state can still be activated. Interrupts are not disables. therefore your concern is not well founded.
Interrupts do not need any kind of nerf or stacking resistance because as I already stated they would become dead and useless like the rest of current CC.
Why is it that when something of a support nature which is not healing but actually assists groups of players to stay alive longer without being one shotted or taken by suprise everyone tries to shoot it down?! It makes no sense, having CC like this will ensure tanks can stay alive much longer, melee DPS builds who have high damage output will actually be able to do such damage rather than do a bit then die, then do a bit then die.
Take Gravitar for example, her devastating bubble cannot be avoided that easily by some, either they are low on HP and are blocking so movement speed is reduced OR thier TP is in combat mode like Flight and they cant clear the radius in time, either way they will get caught, currently not even MD can help much against yellow Gravi-bubble damage, even through block. Interrupting this will help.
You act as if charged attacks are the only attacks bosses have, Gravitar's Gravity Cascades are not charged they are "click", this cannot be interrupted and yes they can be extremely devastating to some play styles and classes of players. Trying to prevent failure is not trivializing content, I note you didnt take into account my assertion that high DPS builds trivialise content to an extent, as well as nigh invulnerable tank builds, or insane dodge/avoid melee builds or compassion bubble healers all of which IMO are great, people are using powers in CO to create fantastic builds and I for one applaud them, but when it comes to something which most people do not invest in or will invest in, everyone draws their weapons to stab it, for goodness sake if you even say that it won't affect your personal play style then what is the problem?
Interrupts can get stacks of resistance, as soon as healers build up stacks of healing resistance on allies which nerfs healing they receive, and when DPS builds build up Damage Overwhelming Stacks which nerf their damage output or melee builds damage gets less effective over time due to repetitive strain injury....Which ofc will never happen.
CC is crippled enough just because it is getting a powerful revive no one needs to get jealous about it, as Secksegai said, CC always works on things which you dont need it to like low level henchmen. Yet trying to give it some power in massive boss fights and bring it up to standard with other forms of play style is so wrong. NOT.
Honestly, compare the CC on PTS to other forms of dmg, it is not OP, it doesnt outshine other builds or powers.
Correct me if I am wrong on this last statement, but it feels good to win a boss fight doesnt it? CC can help this, boss fights will still be just that, CC is getting the buff it needs, I also to cannot wait for full CC review. I just hope this biased view against CC nonsense will not rear it's head once more.
I accept the fact that other factions of gameplay need to be looked at like tanking and melee, but as it stands they are EFFECTIVE, yes they may have some disadvantages but that is what other classes like CC and Healing Support are for. The simple fact is, everything else currently is working "fine" as in they are functional and you can create successful builds with them and do most of the content in CO. Crowd Controllers struggle to do the same, why is fixing this so wrong? I mean you'd rather have a full team of useful players rather than 8 or 9 players who do damage out put and one or two useless controller builds who try to paralyze Gravitar and get one shotted or something.
DAYUM! Wow..I just also read this post...wow, thats fantastic! We finally agree on something!
I indeed share Blademasters Sentiments about this post :biggrin:
/agreed
Too bad Seck completely missed the point Kai was actually making actually. But it's also biased that people want to be buffed to trivialize content. It's easy to say one side the argument is being biased, when the exact opposite was actually said, especially when you falsely believe that a control aspect is underpowered. Especially when people have the view that CC was mandatory or even required in City of Heroes, and to that point I say, they weren't.
Too bad Seck completely missed the point Kai was actually making actually. But it's also biased that people want to be buffed to trivialize content. It's easy to say one side the argument is being biased, when the exact opposite was actually said, especially when you falsely believe that a control aspect is underpowered. Especially when people have the view that CC was mandatory or even required in City of Heroes, and to that point I say, they weren't.
He wasnt being biased he was stating a simple fact as I am sure you are aware CC currently is worthless in CO, working to change that and to not even buff but to ressurect a certain playstyle is not a crime, nor is it being biased. If healing or tanking went out the window or something and people wanted to bring it back I'm pretty sure not many people would object to either being given a new lease of life. This is exactly what is happening here. CC is dead and The Devs have worked to bring it back to life and have frankly done a fantastic job.
I not only believe CC is underpowered, I KNOW it is. I have run CC builds before and after On Alert and even on my Mind AT the difference is very noticable. My concern about CC is well founded and grounded on it's current status. It is so much so that the devs have created new powers which are CC to try and bring it back to life, so I'd say it was a pretty solid belief actually. Having a mechanic work does not trivialize content at all.
Thats almost the same as saying rezzing or healing players is trivializing the damage output and difficulty of lairs and bosses. The answer here is blantantly NO it isnt, it is simply a support mechanic doing it's job.
Even though some people did veer off and talk about CoH, that is not the issue here.
Too bad Seck completely missed the point Kai was actually making actually. But it's also biased that people want to be buffed to trivialize content. It's easy to say one side the argument is being biased, when the exact opposite was actually said, especially when you falsely believe that a control aspect is underpowered. Especially when people have the view that CC was mandatory or even required in City of Heroes, and to that point I say, they weren't.
Nothing was required or mandatory in CoH, except damage, and everyone had damage.
So I'm guessing, please correct me if I'm mistaken, you believe control is not underpowered? If that's true, is that compared to the level everything else (damage, survivability, buff/debuff) is now, or is that compared to a hypothetical level everything else -should- be at. If it's the former I'm incredibly confused (yay mez worked!), if it's the latter could you please explain.
Also, if control is not underpowered compared to where everything should be, would you rather the devs nerf everything before or after working on bestial/tank buffs?
You are not really responding to the concern I expressed. The thing that is fun for me in the CO fights is the need to respond to things by blocking or manoeuvring myself out of reach. I can not respond to tap hits anyway, and with interrupts working on bosses never need to respond to a charge or maintain attack when there is a good controller in the team.
So in short, this removes the need to pay attention to a boss fight, I can almost macro my attacks and go read a book.
He wasnt being biased he was stating a simple fact as I am sure you are aware CC currently is worthless in CO, working to change that and to not even buff but to ressurect a certain playstyle is not a crime, nor is it being biased. If healing or tanking went out the window or something and people wanted to bring it back I'm pretty sure not many people would object to either being given a new lease of life. This is exactly what is happening here. CC is dead and The Devs have worked to bring it back to life and have frankly done a fantastic job.
I not only believe CC is underpowered, I KNOW it is. I have run CC builds before and after On Alert and even on my Mind AT the difference is very noticable. My concern about CC is well founded and grounded on it's current status. It is so much so that the devs have created new powers which are CC to try and bring it back to life, so I'd say it was a pretty solid belief actually. Having a mechanic work does not trivialize content at all.
Thats almost the same as saying rezzing or healing players is trivializing the damage output and difficulty of lairs and bosses. The answer here is blantantly NO it isnt, it is simply a support mechanic doing it's job.
Even though some people did veer off and talk about CoH, that is not the issue here.
CC is underpowered because mobs are too easy. You can try and slice that little pie all you want in any direction you prefer but when most of the content can be easily destroyed in one move or less these days, I think it's more of the fault of the fact mobs were made too easy to appease the weakest link style of game play.
It can be claimed that we've just gotten more powerful, but the simple fact is mobs in Champions were nerfed on three separate occasions, and of course citing things they didn't feel super heroic enough, despite they are fighting super villains. In other words, critters that should present a threat to them. In short, the player base, to be blunt, has been responsible for how the game currently is. Content that use to be challenging was made trivial and this was before On Alert, all to appease the instant gratification crowd.
You are not really responding to the concern I expressed. The thing that is fun for me in the CO fights is the need to respond to things by blocking or manoeuvring myself out of reach. I can not respond to tap hits anyway, and with interrupts working on bosses never need to respond to a charge or maintain attack when there is a good controller in the team.
So in short, this removes the need to pay attention to a boss fight, I can almost macro my attacks and go read a book.
I have teamed with AoPM and AoRP players at the same time with MASSIVE amounts of presence in support role. The overall "challenge" of the fight was completely removed. Did I then go to those players and say "I hate your build for making the game boring."
I have a tank in my SG who is AMAZING at keeping threat and can survive boss fights that my character dies almost instantly in.. Do I go to him and say "I hate your build for being able to tank those bosses for me"
The argument that one person can be good at what they do for the role they are DESIGNED for is a false one. I have said it before .. the push-back, i feel, is that of bias against control. I've suffered 3 years of it. But it's not just me who suffers.
- -
Nerfing crowd control has made innumerable negative effects to PvP. One example: Melee DPS role used to have innate crowd control (that ranged builds could not get) that would allow them to compete in PvP. The removing of their crowd control has lead to the "concentration only" pvp model currently.
Crowd Control (and aggro control) is a powerful tool.. one that needs to be regulated. But the developers of Champions Online have purposefully made it so inherently weak on purpose. When a player is held (by a player.. not a critter) the effects of the hold wear off almost instantly when the player takes any substantial damage.
I have teamed with AoPM and AoRP players at the same time with MASSIVE amounts of presence in support role. The overall "challenge" of the fight was completely removed. Did I then go to those players and say "I hate your build for making the game boring."
That depends on what build you have, I can make a build that will survive most content with ease without much need to respond to anything, but that would be my choice, not the choice of the controller. On my melee dps build I have never seen auras having such a big impact that I did not need to block and avoid stuff in the grav fight.
I have a tank in my SG who is AMAZING at keeping threat and can survive boss fights that my character dies almost instantly in.. Do I go to him and say "I hate your build for being able to tank those bosses for me"
Again keeping to the grav fight, since this was the latest boss added. A tank is useful, but never takes away my need to respond.
The argument that one person can be good at what they do for the role they are DESIGNED for is a false one. I have said it before .. the push-back, i feel, is that of bias against control. I've suffered 3 years of it. But it's not just me who suffers.
I do not mean to sound biased, nor do I feel I am.
Nerfing crowd control has made innumerable negative effects to PvP. One example: Melee DPS role used to have innate crowd control (that ranged builds could not get) that would allow them to compete in PvP. The removing of their crowd control has lead to the "concentration only" pvp model currently.
Crowd Control (and aggro control) is a powerful tool.. one that needs to be regulated. But the developers of Champions Online have purposefully made it so inherently weak on purpose. When a player is held (by a player.. not a critter) the effects of the hold wear off almost instantly when the player takes any substantial damage.
This is exactly why the CC changes now implemented should be very well thought out. If things are overpowering the nerfs will happen again.
Bouncing off the CC talk briefly here to voice some thoughts on how I'd personally like to see Vehicles implemented.
FRAMES: Vehicle Frames can be purchased through the C-Store. Certain Frames would include Aircraft/Tank/Bike/Car/Bestial(All Frames come with a starter pack including a full model pack.)
MODEL PACKS/PIECES: Model Packs can be purchases through the C-Store or as Body Piece Unlock Drops throughout the game world. Model packs include different sections/pieces of the vehicles body that form a specific style(such as the Hawkwing.) These pieces can then be changed with other pieces to form the custom style vehicle that you want via a Garage/Hanger.
*There may be a concern about Bestial Mounts. The Bestial Frame is what would be used to adjust how your avatar rides it. I had a thought about allowing us to adjust the size of the frames gradually so we can better fit our avatars on them. I'd love to see Bestial pieces interchangeable like the rest just to see what crazy creatures people would make. Giant Eagle Pack + Lion Pack = Kickass Flying Gryphon(just for an example. ;P)
GARAGE/HANGER: This can be a building placed anywhere in MC where you can fly/pull into that has platforms for fine tuning your vehicles. It should similar to your current costume editor, but instead of changing pieces on a character model it's your vehicle model. Once in the Vehicle Editor you can interchange pieces that you've unlocked and even color each piece individually.
You COULD also allow this to the be the place where we decide if we want a flying vehicle/Terrain Vehicle/or Oceanic Vehicle. Choosing from things like Hover pads/ Jets/ Wheels/ Treads/ Propellers(just to name a few.)
HIDEOUTS: Hideouts have not been touched in a great while. This would be a great opportunity to upgrade the current hideouts. The training room is still a viable option for another room to the hideouts. The crafting room on the other hand I see no need for. So instead I suggest our own personal Garage/Hanger to showcase our vehicles when we decide to have friends over. A few options such as Gritty Garage to Jet Hanger styles would be nice to choose from. And also which of our vehicles we want placed in the room as well. Should be fully functional, allowing you to edit your vehicle in the privacy of your own hideout.
VEHICLE BUILDS: I don't know about you all, but I NEVER use the 5 other build slots we get. So I'd like to suggest taking one of the build slots and converting it into a Vehicle Slot. As soon as you acquire a vehicle frame you are granted a vehicle build slot. When you switch over to this build and open up your Powers Tab you should now only see the powers that your Vehicle currently is equipped with. Now you can move powers on your tray wherever you like. Even take powers off your tray completely if you wish. You can also change the color of each power individually, or use the color all option(which will also be how you change the color of your vehicles exhaust.) I'm really hoping this setup would work, and that this is what they currently have in mind.
MODS: It's cool that we will be able to gear our vehicles, but I definitely don't want to see model pieces and powers stuck to them specifically. This would be like Power Replaces all over again, and we know how well that worked out. -_-
So that's about it. To rap things up, I'd just like to say thanks again for even considering to go forward with Vehicles. Can't be an easy task I'm sure. From what I'm seeing currently the focus is heavily on mechanics, just want to make sure style and customization is left on the back burner for an extended period of time. I think it would be great to not only see Model Packs in the C-Store, but releasing model packs along side Costume Packs that all match a certain theme. Possibly even going back to previously released Costume Packs and trying to make a few Model Pieces to match those sets(Call it a Model Variety Pack maybe?) There's also the Recognition Vendors, Questionite Store and plenty of other places to put these. Also, don't forget about jetpacks, MOAR JETPACKS! :biggrin:
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Thats exactly what they are doing, I recall Crush telling me power tweaks/additions were only happening where he could see there was need and no reviews are scheduled after telepathy additions.
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The problem is at hand that they fail to see crossset synergies they develop.
I think the new DoT gameplay is very new and very fun. The damage is low and pitifully so on purpose. Each tick of each power is tiny, but combined they are an army of Damage over Time. To get the benefit from this you'll want to take penetration through Superstating INT, using Congress of selves, Buying Malvan Gauntlets or even a combination of all three.
Its to be noted that the damage provided is about 2/5 that of fully specc'd infernal epidemic spam. However, these work through sleep effects which is a powerful component.
You bring up a valid point about Interrupts. They are the "boss fight" mechanic used by telepaths now (seeing how they have no innate mitigation through their passive or powers. However this does mean that more enemies need click activated attacks that hit before their Schick attacks.
I agree. I still haven't looked at numbers for these. How much does 300 END provide for each pet? The UI is still extremely clunky.. For any player without the ability to swap builds (silver players) this is extremely disheartening.
I again completely agree. I just don't see the benefit to the current vehicles (become devices by any other name still suck as lame) in the bottom line of the game. I doubt they bring much revenue to the company and are severely lacking in the "fun" category. The gameplay of "Vehicle Alerts" will be ignored by well over half the game population in 6 months.
I see plenty of opportunity for cross-set synergy for almost ALL of the newer powers. Passives are becoming more set specific, which I emphatically support.
I see it as "The devs are no longer PUNISHING players who play within their chosen framework". The cherry-pickers will always have their FoTM builds.. but now more "concept players" have options to keep up with the performance of cherry-pickers.. this INCLUDES concepts that do not stay in framework.
Detonating the HoT debuff with Mind Blast heals nearby enemies.
All good points.
As for nullifying it for everyone, I agree, but I, as a telepath, am a support player. I want the effects of my gameplay to affect my teammates as much as me. The inturrupt mechanic is my only viable mechanic to aid my team in boss fights as a controller. I can perhaps agree to having this only work on Supervillain+ enemies with Manipulator.
I do not wish to see Crowd control become OP for the common build. People who specialize in crowd control however sacrifice alot in terms of "Self Viability" because their role is NOT a selfish one, but one of support.
The crowd controller is much squishier and vulnerable than the healer because it takes so much more TIME in combat for crowd control effects than it does for heals (dont remind me of the 1 second delay on incapacitates). The powers all have cooldowns and often dont take full effect without being fully charged. This is the equivalent of every heal in the game working like Psionic Healing on a cooldown.. It would be hell for them.
Because crowd controllers are SO much more vulnerable in the defense department, The need as much help as they can get at usable "distractions" in combat. I think the new play-style represents this well. But again I agree that Manipulator users are the target demographic for such power.. not the common player who sacrificed only one power point.
I do like it how it is right now, everything is ok and functioning great except for the potential rez/major heal to enemy that detonating stacks via Mind Break has.
I'd like to suggest that Mental Storm as it is now a paralyze (awesome change btw very nice
The reason why is because after a very long while Telepathy has a paralyze and we already have one Storm (Ego Storm) having an actual control power like this Paralyze is a very good idea IMO. Ego Storm whilst it used to be very good the Incapacitate system has crippled it considerably, having a good paralyze like
By the way, does anyone know the intended radius of Mind Control? (Mental Storm) I cant seem to get the AoE component of the paralyze to proc unless the foes are very close to each other...I guess it forces you to be more selective about whose mind you control...
I do full charge it btw.
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I gave up already 2 months ago.
But hey .. don't forget .. they are just Prototypes ... and we get new rooms in oure hideouts
and the C-Store on PTS will return in "one of the next" patches
ANd they are still become devices, no matter what people say, until i don't see my character
and don't have access to the powers of my character.
I was wondering about this, the bike seems to be designed to show a character model.
Simply being near the manifestations, even when you're not in a team, grants you their buffs. While not a problem in and of itself, the explosion of glowing on your character and that GRATING, droning sound get on the nerves quickly. If someone leaves these things hanging around where you want to be, tough luck.
So, if you could nix the VFX/SFX or make it team-only, please. Pick one, I don't care which. That was a problem with the original auras back at launch, too. They'd apply to everyone around you, resulting in all sorts of FX spilling onto your character.
I had been fighting for some defensive components to Telepathy when I was reminded that telepathy is "supposed" to be squishy. I had tried to create a character using telepathy powers with high defenses (to show up that uppity Mind Archtype) but the devs have done a great job at making that extremely hard to do.
I'm always very interested in non-traditional approaches.. like a SS Con Telepath. I tried it and it was a miserable experience.
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I don't disagree with you that enemies need more click activated "BOOM". But any charge activated boom is designed to be interrupted for a purpose. The fact that no one flurried up about it when backhand chop came out or even back when Clobber had a chance to interrupt makes me ask.. why hate on telepathy's ability to do it?
Because they're good at it? Well.. if there is one set that is to be taken for Crowd Control effects (even crappy ones like inturrupt) it is this framework.
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Again I concede that there should be more than a one power investment to interrupt legendary villains just as there is with holds. The obvious choice is to put regulate this ability to players with the Manipulator toggle.
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A larger point:
The argument that it is "Selfish" to be good at a certain play-style.. I've seen what I call "God builds" do crazy things.. but you don't hear people complaining about "You killed the enemy too quick making it impossible for me to also enjoy fighting them. (DPS)" or "You tanking Gravitar solo makes me waiting to revive boring (Tanking)" but every time its a support specific mechanic people get up in arms. Ebon Sigils for instance .. "You're making this too easy for everyone by being good at debuffing the enemies damage" and you don't even need to be in Support role for those! The same crowd who refuses to see the imbalance of Sentinel Aura are now saying that interrupts, a crowd control mechanic made SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of fighting BIG bosses, are (just now) too effective. If interrupts don't work on these enemies.. who are they supposed to work on?! I simply point out that the argument is not congruent with previous sentiment.. where was this outrage when it was for offensive builds (Clobber then Backhand Chop)? Next they'll be arguing for a nerf of Skarns Bane and Celestial Cleansing.. and ALL debuffs.
I smell a whiff of bias. Players of this game have displayed a general distaste for support players and support mechanics (crowd control specifically more than the rest). So much so that they CHEER the creation of incapacitates (I may never forgive players for that one..). There are play-styles I generally despise (anything with a blade) in but I have yet to call for a systemic nerf of them.
A percentage chance for all interrupts to work on SV+ would probably be one of the easier "fixes" but the least desirable in my opinion. Interrupts should be reliable, as long as the conditions for use are met. Anything less and the interrupt might as well not exist in the first place.
Maybe Cryptic should implement some sort of conditional interrupt immunity on all SV+ enemies? Something along the lines of the Purple Triangles of Doom from CoX. There would be a window in which interrupts could affect bosses, and outside that window interrupts would not work (and yes, I realize in CoX even with the PToD up you could still stack enough CC to make it work but CO CC/interrupts doesn't stack the same way). This way interrupts could still be useful while not turning SV+ mobs into little more than giant bags of hp for the entire fight.
Another possibility would be taking something from GW2. All CC can work on most bosses, but you have to use CC to remove their stacks of CC protection. After any CC successfully lands, the CC protection stacks are reset. This is my favored idea as it leaves when to actually CC completely in the hands of the player. On a side note, knocks would likely have to be not considered CC for the purposes of this change as there are many spammable knock powers.
Commentary above.
I completely agree, especially with the highlighted portion.
Interrupts are a great variable in fights designed with the realization that they exist. None (that I have seen) of CO's fights are.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
My pipe dream is to have mechanics like the combat in Resident Evil 5 where you could hit an enemy in the leg and they'd fall to their knees and you could run behind them and break their neck. Now THAT'S an interrupt.
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Currently the situation in CO, it used to be ok actually, until Incapacitates lived up to its name and did just that to the CC system.
Putting Control into the mix of battle does not ruin or mess with content. These powers were designed originally to do just that. Control Crowds of foes or individual ones. Content balance is already non existant with the god builds out there and the Imbue abusers etc not to mention the jets and summon devices, those are examples which would ruin content balance, trying to ressurect a mechanic in the game which originally had as much a place in CO as DPS or tanking did is a very good idea. Even though I do like this power I will use it as an example of something which has an effect on content. Shadow Strike, when I was lvl 11, I was able to one shot Zoe Loft, tell me how putting a sleep or an "incapacitate" on her will remove any issue or content, as far as things go CC like Sleep or Paralyze functions cant kill NPCs.
How does putting a large mob to sleep or holding down a powerful foe for a time, nullify the use other team mates. You speak as if CC can out damage a DPS, or stop a tank from tanking. They don't. They actually improve a teams situation "through various effects".
Even in comics and just reading or watching media associated with superheroes shows that telepathy and control of masses were very much linked if not most times seen as one thing. Telepathy's upcomming ability to shine seems to be down trodden by some peoples anger at other sets they felt should be looked at first, when in actual fact Telepathy was the worst off powerset. As a telepath, I know my role and what I should be able to provide for my team. Crowd Control I think initially was designed to remove the burden or help with the burden of keeping everyone above 50% HP, locking down opponents or controlling foes on CC which still works is a good mechanic. Interrupts which are comming to telepathy frankly are a much needed blessing to the powerset, what kind of telepath can see an attack comming/ building up and doesnt try to stop it?!
Personally, I am glad CC and Telepathy simultaneously are getting a boost in some ways, it's been a long time comming. These new powers will give hope to not only older CO players who enjoy support playstyle but also to new CoH players who enjoyed the Controller aspect of that game and have come here looking for something similar.
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LOL, perhaps a future might interrupt? xD!!
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Gentleman Crush spawned a Gravitar and the interrupts did in fact work on her. When I asked him he responded that they ARE intended to work on high end content. I have not yet been able to get a queue to pop on PTS to test it on the instance version of Gravitar.. but if there is a boss created that does not respond to interrupts it is a bug and should be reported.
I don't apologize for wanting to have fun in high end content as a telepath.. because the alternative is that my character is a paper doll .. looking pretty and doing nothing useful.
I simply don't understand the bias of when it is Crowd Control people want it to burn in a fire, but I am appreciative of developers who are trying to be just. If you dont want to play a telepath, you don't have to... in fact VERY FEW PEOPLE DO. I could name on one hand the number of people choosing to use Manipulator. But I am REFUSING to go back to the dark ages of "We hate crowd control". Period.
With all due respect.. take the bias somewhere else.
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I can appreciate this system. I am still awaiting a full review of the crowd control system.. One that is qualitative. I think this progressive threshold system would work as long as it were based on the QUALITY of the holds placed not the number of holds.
When the new system is released to PTS it will require alot of player feedback. Hopefully more than "I hate Crowd Control"
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I do however agree that content and AI should be designed with interrupts in mind (because as long as I have a subscription they aren't going anywhere).
The way which it has been for ages up until now is that everyone trivialized Crowd Control, ever since it got shot in the face with The Incapacitate System. Every other playstyle on LIVE currently trumps CC. Wanting CC to be an effective part of game play is not going to impact on content. Why shouldnt interrupts work on bosses? Your idea of "fun" has been brought into question before hand by not just myself with regards to your blocking nerf idea, I still wonder what you call fun.. for me, I think making powers which fit thematically and have use is fun, I expect my telepath to be able to do these sorts of things already, being a useful part of a team rather than being a staple DPS or Tank, CC will rise to the occassion and be part of a team.
If you dislike the thought of telepaths being useful then I can understand why you dislike this idea so much.
With regards to your earlier reply where you labelled my post "Stuff". I will stress this next point. CC does NOT remove functionality from other class playstyles, you may be seeing this from a slightly wrong angle, the CC component will not render everything under control at once, my example was referring to two large groups, whilst your team deals with one, in order to stop both from swamping everyone and putting major stress on the healer and tank, one group is controlled by two CCers in the team. The DPS, Tank and Healer can then focus on one group then move onto the next, I see no problem with this.
Stopping Gravitar from one shotting everyone with her Insane bubble of golden doom will allow more people to attack, resulting in a happier team. Again I see no problem here.
Crowd Control will be just that, CC would not become "absurdly OP" since when is paralyzing or sleeping a foe "absurdly OP"? Making CC FINALLY work on high end content removes the massive usefullness gap that it currently has compared to other play styles in CO. Besides, with the amount of damage output people can put out, compare it to pre On Alertm I would have said 16k was "absurdly OP" and yet my Tempest can almost put out that much damage and some builds are hitting 25K hits etc. Not much in game can withstand a 25k solid hit, apart from cosmics/ very high or powerful bosses.
Your claim that the implementation of basically powers which do their job but on all is content destroying is baseless. The Mega D's which were around when telepathy was on PTS were not "reduced to our personal dummies" they were not without harsh damage either. Interrupts from Telepathy actually helped alot of people stay alive if they were unable to see the impending doom wave from the Mega D.
If a Dev like Crush had said Interrupts were not meant to work on high level content then there would be a problem BUT he has (Thankfully) blown some life into this mechanic and hopefully will continue to do so, so it can be as potent as DPS, Healing and other playstyles.
Having said this, Perhaps an AI update to take into account interrupts would be useful.
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I have documented evidence of every single nerf to Crowd Control because I lived them. I have been playing crowd control from the second week the game was released. My view on the mechanic is first person where many other players are 2nd person (how someone elses toon affects them) or worse completely removed 3rd person perspective.
I am talking nuts and bolts. Crowd Control is a support mechanic, one meant to aid the team. The issue is not and has never been the strength of the crowd control mechanics, it has always been the available resistance to them (for Critters and Players).
I (more than most) do not want to return to the days of "pick one power for max strength crowd control". But Just as players can invest in Tanking, Damage and Healing.. I chose to invest in Crowd Control. It comes with less benefit to damage, defense and healing than ANY other mechanic. Many players are trying to make this sacrifice to get a team force multiplier irrelevant. This has been the history of Champions Online.
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Kaisern, to answer you specifically, no I do not hold a bias. I have seen your build and it performs quite well and can likely solo the entire content of Champions Online. Rather than call for a nerf of your build, I simply want the ability for MY chosen mechanic (not tanking) to be as competitive.
My mind is not plugged. But when it comes to the Crowd Control mechanic I am simply pointing out that the public opinion is not representative of a just system.
Regardless of this, support builds based around debuffing, buffing, crowd control and other non-healing centered playstyles should be viable. In the hands of a character at least partially built around control, said crowd control should be effective on bosses no matter the type. Boss fights are a substantial portion of most content, and with more recent content featuring a boss fight as a large portion of if not all of the objective, it's more pressing now than ever that this niche be a viable against them.
Also, as a side note, no matter how many times people want to throw around "straw man," hand waving an argument isn't a viable way to win it. Just because YOU don't like the argument you're facing doesn't mean you can act like two words can make it go away. It's not an internet argument "I Win" button, it doesn't make you look smarter, it doesn't make you look right, it just makes you look like a troll. Stop doing it.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
A working mini-map, complete with pings when something is under attack would be helpful.
The team up "function" is still a steaming pile of poo. If more missions like this are to be made a real raid UI NEEDS to happen.
No more sking down to level 30 please. It's very annoying when most new content sidekicks us down to 30. Why bother getting to level 40?
Not sure if it's a bug, but after killing the Mega D with about 1.5 minutes left the only mob spawning was one of those helicopter drone carriers up by the nose. It would respawn almost immediately after destruction.
And finally on a side note... would it be possible to let the shadows from the Summon Shadows power and zombies from March of the Dead fly? Maybe change their graphics to something that makes more sense than flying zombies and shadows.
I hope we will not go down that path, removing the 'on your toes' aspect of boss fights for everyone except the few people using interrupts is not something I would welcome.
If it worked like some soft disable (slowing charge times or something like that) on bosses it would be ok with me.
Interesting. When I played it a few weeks ago (when you had to protect the flying delivery trucks), mobs would constantly go after the engines in all four stages, meaning you'd have to have one person on each side watching them at all times. Surprised they changed that (or as you suggested, it bugged).
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Surely then it wouldnt be so much an interrupt than some form of weird time control >_>"
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Or a distraction, explaining the effect is not really a problem.
While i'm conceptually open to this, the lag response time responds much better to a binary "cast" or "not cast" system.
If it were implemented tho I would hope that players using Manipulator still get the real deal interrupt.
Then what would be stopping those from almost completely locking down a boss fight? If that happened on a fight like gravitar, it could be pretty boring for the rest of the team?
Edit.
Reading back some more, I see others have expressed this concern too.
Having a support in my team is something I would prefer being glad about, not be a reason to consider leaving and do some other thing.
I'm seriously asking.
For the record, i don't like the design philosophy that CC only works when you don't need it. Whenever the CC review happens, I think a lot of this can be sorted out. (maybe interrupts give stacks or resist?)
I haven't looked at every post, but it seems that people are arguing about how interrupts are OP in a theoretical since. Has any one actually shown that interrupts break every thing?
kaizerin, your never shy about posting videos.
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This i very much dislike. Not trying to pick on you, just noting that this is not the way to go forward with Crowd Control.
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I dont hear qualms from players teamed with AoPM or AoRP support players.. they make the gameplay just as trivial and yet no one calls for their systemic nerf.
Auras and Heals are championed as support mechanics because players get to see their own toon and say "look how BA I am". I suspect the reason that players have consistently been against powerful debuffs is because they dont take the time to see the value of them.
The fact is debuffs (specifically holds) are entirely harder than heals or auras to use in combat. I've pointed out before.. they have much more vulnerability in terms of time and lack the defense of health regeneration. This weakness is offset by their ability to affect enemies..
I am not arguing that AI should not be updated to deal with inturrupts. In fact I support the sentiment greatly.
SPECIFICALLY to the point of crowd controllers (people who use Manipulator Toggle especially) they do not get the major offense of any of the damage toggles.. they do not get the defense of heals nor defense toggles.. And you are claiming that the ONE defense that the devs smartly gave them to fight in endgame content be removed.. because it is effective at doing what it is designed to do for those it's designed to do it for? And the only justification you give to kill off this gameplay is that it's "a great support mechanic"?
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Lets be real. Debuffing support is not the same as Buffing Support. Once a target is held.. he's held. He's not going to (in the current system) get "MORE held". Hes not going to get "More inturrupted". The real truth is for most players.. playing a controller will almost always mean you are casting powers that do nothing. Having two telepaths on a team is the worst possible scenario because it means they are working against each other (thus why the system of 30 debuffs was created so as to not discourage teaming). Without the ability to inturrupt, you are essentially asking for them to kill off all control because it makes the game too easy for you.
If you cant see the bias in this then we will have to agree to disagree.
CC review, Stealth Review, Vehicle review, AI review, Lair review, Powerset reviews...there are a butt load of reviews needed.
If CC did get the KB treatment it would just be another addition to the existing dead CC mechanic and would make having more than one or two holds or interrupts in a build useless, thereby nullifying the amount of hours of work which has been put into making these powers. Wanting control in gameplay as a decent mechanic is no more wrong than wanting a high powered DPS or highly useful rezzer/ healer. The new mechanics which are comming in allow for CC to be a valid part of gameplay, interrupts do not stop enemies from attacking generally, the only prevent usually painful/devastating charge up attacks. If you really think CC is such a problem simply don't team with Controllers. Its a very simple solution.
I'd disagree here, putting CC in the game doesnt remove gamplay, it actually expands different avenues to play content. I could say that having DPS builds which can easily hit for 16k is a concern about trivializing game content, because DPS as it stands in most respects is very very powerful, a coordinated assault against a group of enemies by a DPS team is deadly to be involved in. As Gamehobo already stated a team of two telepaths is very counterproductive as one is always in some fashion weakening the others holds, generally the flow of battle and progress isnt there like it would be for DPS or tank builds working together. This new style of controlling abilities will stop this blatant failure. The new powers are not forced upon anyone, only those who want to use it. If people feel that CC is "OP" then they can go and team with non controllers and enjoy "real content".
Play stlye is subjective to each player, as I am sure you are aware. No two players are the same in terms of what they want to be able to do. Some want to play ranged high damage builds, CO says OK!, Some want to play high HP near juggernaut like unstoppablity tank builds, CO says OK!, Some want to play hard hitting melee builds or high support healing builds, CO also says OK!, BUT when it comes to people who want to play Controllers in a team as a part of the support function, CO generally says NO, now that Gentleman Crush and the Devs have worked hard to porvide a niche for Controllers, everyone starts complaining? How is that fair? Why shouldnt an old play style be rekindled? The answer is there is no reason. Simply because they feel control will turn everything into their own personal dummies. This is not the case. Yes Crowd Control like the new system will be powerful and as potent as in game DPS (I hope), I dont see any issue here.
Thinking back to Mentella & Kontrol vs Slave Zero?
We should have recorded it, its a testament to how bad CC's current state is EVEN with high control on your part.
The only form of Crowd Control which is extremely potent and hasnt been nerfed yet is the ability to mute people, now that's crowd control >_>"
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The turning bosses in dummies is a very big concern, can you explain how interrupts are going to be limited to prevent that?
All those other player have a small effect on my play style, I still not to block, and avoid, and I still need to be smart if I want to survive. If only the controller builds are going to have to respond to charge attacks, all others will have a greatly diminished experience.
You say this is not the case, how is it not? Controllers needing viable options is not the question, I understand they do and agree.
Don't ask for this, all this ever results in is someone posting a video of their current whine fest functioning under above ideal conditions. You'll never see a video that represents the average masses, or even in some cases above average but unsuitable in the selected test, because it would prove them wrong.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
If you have AoE CC and strong AoE damage, either the AoE CC is made redundant or the AoE damage from a single player gets nerfed to where using AoE CC is valuable-enough to have a spot on the team.
If you've got single-target CC, either you're going to be trivializing content (like when that one Ice power whose name I forget could interrupt anything with no cooldown) or you're going to have no effect for the majority of the fight (like current CC on legendaries).
Alternatively, if you make either form of CC "too strong", you get the all-Controller/Defender teams that are buffing themselves to insane levels and making sure their enemies can't retaliate in any truly threatening way.
It's binary-enough that it's a very delicate balancing act, and most implementations don't get it right. People are against it because of the history attached, both here and in other games.
They could just rework the debuff system to make it actually useful (like with old Svengali's Guile), but "debuff-on-hold-attempt-even-if-it-fails" has been unpopular enough amongst the crowd-control crowd that the existence of the spec tree options that do that has been pretty much ignored.
TL; DR version: Player-focused support means that the vast majority of players in the game don't have to change their playstyle to accommodate it, therefore it's going to be more popular.
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This is the kind of bias I hate to see. It's easy to call for nerfs when they don't directly impact YOUR build, but failing to consider how it affects the player base as a whole.
The whole idea of support is to have a significant impact on the fights without heavily leaning on damage or tanking, as in healing and crowd control.
Let's face it, once you've got a def passive and some self-healing, the majority of the content is trivialized. It's still possible to tank over 30 mobs and still not break a sweat if you're setup for it. The better one understands the game mechanics, the less challenge one faces. Most of the time, you don't even need a def passive.
There's no trinity here, so talks of nullifying content is simply a bias. Capable players can breeze through anything in CO, short of utterly broken (read bugged) content.
Why is it ok for a nearly unkillable in pve tank to never be at risk of death, but it's wrong for a squishy to have the capacity to interrupt or hold a legendary or cosmic? Do you not see the bias here, its fine if you get to play the way you do, but if someone like jaybezz wants to run a troller style he gets screwed over.
I'm pretty sure you played CoH too Kai, and the way I remember it, short of running around in Granite, the tanks tended to be pretty reliant on the CC to make teamfights manageable, being that unlike here, none of the tanks could magically heal endlessly (or at all for that matter).
Think about it, is having the actual potential to hold/interrupt legendaries or cosmics going to suddenly eliminate this magical difficulty that doesn't exist to begin with? Since On-Alert hit, challenge for me personally has merely been how much I have to carry a team (if at all). There isn't a single task in this game that a well-groomed 5 (yes 5) man team can't get through smoothly, and most of the time you could get by with less.
I'd say plenty of people are disappointed that CC only works on stuff you never really need it for to begin with, if at all. Being able to hold and stun and interrupt the big baddies won't do much outside of some damage mitigation, which is less about need (since the tanks should have it covered regardless) and more just for the sake of being able to mez a cosmic and feel a bit uber in the process.
I see this post...and I want to hug SeCKSEgai now.
All of this. ALL OF IT.
As far as I'm concerned, I think the ability to mez cosmics/legendaries should stem from via Manipulator and/or specializations, since thats what seperates a Controller from, well anything else. But CC should work on them.
Um all tanking sets in CoH had a self heal as far as I can remember fire, Invul and earth certainly did.
Further many of the sets could reach levels of survivability that exceeded what we have here especially when you added in specialised IOs then in a team environment add in a defender (something we have no true equivalent of in CO) and you had silly survivability.
We've had the ability to more or less perma-lockdown mobs and players before. It's been fixed in the instances I can remember. Probably with good reason.
Playing a controller type character is fun. Being on the receiving end or playing with a controller who can perma-lockdown everything is not, in my opinion. When you remove the ability or need to react to the fight for full duration the risk of failure is removed for everyone except the controller. Some risk for everyone participating in the fight, however slight, is necessary.
What risk you say? Even with "unkillable" tanks and uber healers present other players generally need to do something to stay alive. No amount of tanking or healing will completely negate the need for other players in the area to react to the fight. Gravitar is a good example of this. "Unkillable" tanks sometimes die or lose aggro. Uber healers fail to keep everyone up because when all is said and done it's up to each individual player to stay alive. Tanking and healing help, but it's not guaranteed.
All that said, I'm not against controls being able to affect SV+ enemies. But there needs to be a system in place which prevents perma-lockdown. I outlined a few ideas in post #64. Comments, additions and new ideas are all welcome.
With CoH's culture, people didn't care so much. Some did, but there wasn't a grand display of hopping as if CC just stepped on the tank's toes or vise versa. In both games, CoH for sure and CO by observation, teaming is held by the majority to be a frivilous social device not a necessity to proceed. This means that either the hopping needs to stop, as no one is really stepping on anyones toes, or it just needs to be said that what some people want is content that cannot be done without certain combinations of builds and roles.
Either way, Crowd control should change. Players should get some benefit for having an ammount of hold health on the enemy. I personally think there should be two tiers of held. 100%-81% Hold health would be Tier 1, and 80%-1% would be Tier 2. Tier 1 would be held, and tier 2 would be tangled.
When held, all damage is stopped because the enemy can't attack. Once the hold health is below the Tier 1 level or if an enemy (I.E. Cosmic/Legendary) has a -hold health that makes them unable to be held, then they're tangled. Tangled would reduce the damage the enemy does by the percentage of hold health remaining (Multiplicitive with other damage reduction not additive). When a tangled enemy attacks, their damage is reduced by a percentage equal to the percentage of remaining health, and the entire damage of the attack is dealt to the hold. Player's can't hurt their own holds.
Take Gravitar for example, CC user hits her with a hold, but the french hussy's all to familiar with handcuffs, so she's not held. Now she tries to insta-gibb everyone with an 80K hit. All tangled up in the handcuffs, she isn't able to do the attack right and it doesn't hit as hard. Her protection would reduce the hold health to 80%, but she'd be tangled. Her next attack, which was the 80K one, would do 80k * (1-.8) = 16,000 damage instead. The hold would take 80k damage, and quite simply be dead. Gravitar would get hold resistance, like normal, and successive hold attempts would have less effect on her damage. Imagine a cap of hold health reduction that makes the a hold -start- at 5% health.
"But Jack!", you say, "What if multiple holders are on the same team?" Good question my curious friend, and simple as well. They'd both reduce her damage 80%, deal 80K to -each- hold, and she'd get hold protection from both. If the reduction is multiplicitive, she'd do the 16k we see from one kinky holder then the second person would reduce -that- to 3,200 damage. She'd never deal 0 damage, having multiple CCers on the same team would still be less damage than one CCer, and she'd get her protection faster to prevent trivializing her alert.
Now that looks like a lot, but think, that's one big attack. She can attack again after, and the CC player has to decide if they should maintain holds the entire time, or let protection expire and only apply for the big hits. It would also apply to a series of smaller hits. A tangled enemy attacking with a series of 5 500 damage hits. Assume 80% hold health for first tick and 2000 remaining hold health. The first would do 100 damage and leave 1500 hold health, the second would do 200 and leave 1000 hold health, the third 300 and 500, the fourth 400 and 0, and the fifth would do the full 500 damage.
And that's all for "Fifty shades of Grav!" or "How to make holds relevent in all content without making them shut down every enemy!"
I dunno what CoH you played because I am sure most tanks, brutes, and scrappers would disagree with this. I know my Willpower brute would disagree with I generally tanked everything. CC was practically unecesarry tehre as it is in Champions. On that note, I think you are reading too far into Kai's post since Kai has never been a fan of one character being able to solo everything.
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DAYUM! Wow..I just also read this post...wow, thats fantastic! We finally agree on something!
I indeed share Blademasters Sentiments about this post :biggrin:
/agreed
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Yes, it is if it were an ACTUAL concern. Currently players cannot disable bosses like bosses can do to us. Mambo's in VB can use Big Voodoo blasts which disable players (Which has been nerfed
Interrupts do not need any kind of nerf or stacking resistance because as I already stated they would become dead and useless like the rest of current CC.
Why is it that when something of a support nature which is not healing but actually assists groups of players to stay alive longer without being one shotted or taken by suprise everyone tries to shoot it down?! It makes no sense, having CC like this will ensure tanks can stay alive much longer, melee DPS builds who have high damage output will actually be able to do such damage rather than do a bit then die, then do a bit then die.
Take Gravitar for example, her devastating bubble cannot be avoided that easily by some, either they are low on HP and are blocking so movement speed is reduced OR thier TP is in combat mode like Flight and they cant clear the radius in time, either way they will get caught, currently not even MD can help much against yellow Gravi-bubble damage, even through block. Interrupting this will help.
You act as if charged attacks are the only attacks bosses have, Gravitar's Gravity Cascades are not charged they are "click", this cannot be interrupted and yes they can be extremely devastating to some play styles and classes of players. Trying to prevent failure is not trivializing content, I note you didnt take into account my assertion that high DPS builds trivialise content to an extent, as well as nigh invulnerable tank builds, or insane dodge/avoid melee builds or compassion bubble healers all of which IMO are great, people are using powers in CO to create fantastic builds and I for one applaud them, but when it comes to something which most people do not invest in or will invest in, everyone draws their weapons to stab it, for goodness sake if you even say that it won't affect your personal play style then what is the problem?
Interrupts can get stacks of resistance, as soon as healers build up stacks of healing resistance on allies which nerfs healing they receive, and when DPS builds build up Damage Overwhelming Stacks which nerf their damage output or melee builds damage gets less effective over time due to repetitive strain injury....Which ofc will never happen.
CC is crippled enough just because it is getting a powerful revive no one needs to get jealous about it, as Secksegai said, CC always works on things which you dont need it to like low level henchmen. Yet trying to give it some power in massive boss fights and bring it up to standard with other forms of play style is so wrong. NOT.
Honestly, compare the CC on PTS to other forms of dmg, it is not OP, it doesnt outshine other builds or powers.
Correct me if I am wrong on this last statement, but it feels good to win a boss fight doesnt it? CC can help this, boss fights will still be just that, CC is getting the buff it needs, I also to cannot wait for full CC review. I just hope this biased view against CC nonsense will not rear it's head once more.
I accept the fact that other factions of gameplay need to be looked at like tanking and melee, but as it stands they are EFFECTIVE, yes they may have some disadvantages but that is what other classes like CC and Healing Support are for. The simple fact is, everything else currently is working "fine" as in they are functional and you can create successful builds with them and do most of the content in CO. Crowd Controllers struggle to do the same, why is fixing this so wrong? I mean you'd rather have a full team of useful players rather than 8 or 9 players who do damage out put and one or two useless controller builds who try to paralyze Gravitar and get one shotted or something.
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Too bad Seck completely missed the point Kai was actually making actually. But it's also biased that people want to be buffed to trivialize content. It's easy to say one side the argument is being biased, when the exact opposite was actually said, especially when you falsely believe that a control aspect is underpowered. Especially when people have the view that CC was mandatory or even required in City of Heroes, and to that point I say, they weren't.
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He wasnt being biased he was stating a simple fact as I am sure you are aware CC currently is worthless in CO, working to change that and to not even buff but to ressurect a certain playstyle is not a crime, nor is it being biased. If healing or tanking went out the window or something and people wanted to bring it back I'm pretty sure not many people would object to either being given a new lease of life. This is exactly what is happening here. CC is dead and The Devs have worked to bring it back to life and have frankly done a fantastic job.
I not only believe CC is underpowered, I KNOW it is. I have run CC builds before and after On Alert and even on my Mind AT the difference is very noticable. My concern about CC is well founded and grounded on it's current status. It is so much so that the devs have created new powers which are CC to try and bring it back to life, so I'd say it was a pretty solid belief actually. Having a mechanic work does not trivialize content at all.
Thats almost the same as saying rezzing or healing players is trivializing the damage output and difficulty of lairs and bosses. The answer here is blantantly NO it isnt, it is simply a support mechanic doing it's job.
Even though some people did veer off and talk about CoH, that is not the issue here.
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Nothing was required or mandatory in CoH, except damage, and everyone had damage.
So I'm guessing, please correct me if I'm mistaken, you believe control is not underpowered? If that's true, is that compared to the level everything else (damage, survivability, buff/debuff) is now, or is that compared to a hypothetical level everything else -should- be at. If it's the former I'm incredibly confused (yay mez worked!), if it's the latter could you please explain.
Also, if control is not underpowered compared to where everything should be, would you rather the devs nerf everything before or after working on bestial/tank buffs?
You are not really responding to the concern I expressed. The thing that is fun for me in the CO fights is the need to respond to things by blocking or manoeuvring myself out of reach. I can not respond to tap hits anyway, and with interrupts working on bosses never need to respond to a charge or maintain attack when there is a good controller in the team.
So in short, this removes the need to pay attention to a boss fight, I can almost macro my attacks and go read a book.
CC is underpowered because mobs are too easy. You can try and slice that little pie all you want in any direction you prefer but when most of the content can be easily destroyed in one move or less these days, I think it's more of the fault of the fact mobs were made too easy to appease the weakest link style of game play.
It can be claimed that we've just gotten more powerful, but the simple fact is mobs in Champions were nerfed on three separate occasions, and of course citing things they didn't feel super heroic enough, despite they are fighting super villains. In other words, critters that should present a threat to them. In short, the player base, to be blunt, has been responsible for how the game currently is. Content that use to be challenging was made trivial and this was before On Alert, all to appease the instant gratification crowd.
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I have teamed with AoPM and AoRP players at the same time with MASSIVE amounts of presence in support role. The overall "challenge" of the fight was completely removed. Did I then go to those players and say "I hate your build for making the game boring."
I have a tank in my SG who is AMAZING at keeping threat and can survive boss fights that my character dies almost instantly in.. Do I go to him and say "I hate your build for being able to tank those bosses for me"
The argument that one person can be good at what they do for the role they are DESIGNED for is a false one. I have said it before .. the push-back, i feel, is that of bias against control. I've suffered 3 years of it. But it's not just me who suffers.
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Nerfing crowd control has made innumerable negative effects to PvP. One example: Melee DPS role used to have innate crowd control (that ranged builds could not get) that would allow them to compete in PvP. The removing of their crowd control has lead to the "concentration only" pvp model currently.
Crowd Control (and aggro control) is a powerful tool.. one that needs to be regulated. But the developers of Champions Online have purposefully made it so inherently weak on purpose. When a player is held (by a player.. not a critter) the effects of the hold wear off almost instantly when the player takes any substantial damage.
That depends on what build you have, I can make a build that will survive most content with ease without much need to respond to anything, but that would be my choice, not the choice of the controller. On my melee dps build I have never seen auras having such a big impact that I did not need to block and avoid stuff in the grav fight.
Again keeping to the grav fight, since this was the latest boss added. A tank is useful, but never takes away my need to respond.
I do not mean to sound biased, nor do I feel I am.
This is exactly why the CC changes now implemented should be very well thought out. If things are overpowering the nerfs will happen again.
FRAMES: Vehicle Frames can be purchased through the C-Store. Certain Frames would include Aircraft/Tank/Bike/Car/Bestial(All Frames come with a starter pack including a full model pack.)
MODEL PACKS/PIECES: Model Packs can be purchases through the C-Store or as Body Piece Unlock Drops throughout the game world. Model packs include different sections/pieces of the vehicles body that form a specific style(such as the Hawkwing.) These pieces can then be changed with other pieces to form the custom style vehicle that you want via a Garage/Hanger.
*There may be a concern about Bestial Mounts. The Bestial Frame is what would be used to adjust how your avatar rides it. I had a thought about allowing us to adjust the size of the frames gradually so we can better fit our avatars on them. I'd love to see Bestial pieces interchangeable like the rest just to see what crazy creatures people would make. Giant Eagle Pack + Lion Pack = Kickass Flying Gryphon(just for an example. ;P)
GARAGE/HANGER: This can be a building placed anywhere in MC where you can fly/pull into that has platforms for fine tuning your vehicles. It should similar to your current costume editor, but instead of changing pieces on a character model it's your vehicle model. Once in the Vehicle Editor you can interchange pieces that you've unlocked and even color each piece individually.
You COULD also allow this to the be the place where we decide if we want a flying vehicle/Terrain Vehicle/or Oceanic Vehicle. Choosing from things like Hover pads/ Jets/ Wheels/ Treads/ Propellers(just to name a few.)
HIDEOUTS: Hideouts have not been touched in a great while. This would be a great opportunity to upgrade the current hideouts. The training room is still a viable option for another room to the hideouts. The crafting room on the other hand I see no need for. So instead I suggest our own personal Garage/Hanger to showcase our vehicles when we decide to have friends over. A few options such as Gritty Garage to Jet Hanger styles would be nice to choose from. And also which of our vehicles we want placed in the room as well. Should be fully functional, allowing you to edit your vehicle in the privacy of your own hideout.
VEHICLE BUILDS: I don't know about you all, but I NEVER use the 5 other build slots we get. So I'd like to suggest taking one of the build slots and converting it into a Vehicle Slot. As soon as you acquire a vehicle frame you are granted a vehicle build slot. When you switch over to this build and open up your Powers Tab you should now only see the powers that your Vehicle currently is equipped with. Now you can move powers on your tray wherever you like. Even take powers off your tray completely if you wish. You can also change the color of each power individually, or use the color all option(which will also be how you change the color of your vehicles exhaust.) I'm really hoping this setup would work, and that this is what they currently have in mind.
MODS: It's cool that we will be able to gear our vehicles, but I definitely don't want to see model pieces and powers stuck to them specifically. This would be like Power Replaces all over again, and we know how well that worked out. -_-
So that's about it. To rap things up, I'd just like to say thanks again for even considering to go forward with Vehicles. Can't be an easy task I'm sure. From what I'm seeing currently the focus is heavily on mechanics, just want to make sure style and customization is left on the back burner for an extended period of time. I think it would be great to not only see Model Packs in the C-Store, but releasing model packs along side Costume Packs that all match a certain theme. Possibly even going back to previously released Costume Packs and trying to make a few Model Pieces to match those sets(Call it a Model Variety Pack maybe?) There's also the Recognition Vendors, Questionite Store and plenty of other places to put these. Also, don't forget about jetpacks, MOAR JETPACKS! :biggrin:
Thx for listening.