CC is underpowered because mobs are too easy. You can try and slice that little pie all you want in any direction you prefer but when most of the content can be easily destroyed in one move or less these days, I think it's more of the fault of the fact mobs were made too easy to appease the weakest link style of game play.
It can be claimed that we've just gotten more powerful, but the simple fact is mobs in Champions were nerfed on three separate occasions, and of course citing things they didn't feel super heroic enough, despite they are fighting super villains. In other words, critters that should present a threat to them. In short, the player base, to be blunt, has been responsible for how the game currently is. Content that use to be challenging was made trivial and this was before On Alert, all to appease the instant gratification crowd.
How does your first sentence make any sense? "CC is underpowered because mobs are too easy". CC has been the target of nerfs since On Alert, mobs seem too easy because we have gotten more powerful in many respects. You cannot find a causal link between CC being underpowered and the difficulty rating (according to you) of CO mobs.
1) CC is underpowered because Some of the PvP Crowd Called Nerf on CC mainly due to ONE advantage on ONE CC power namely Manevolent Manifestation on Ego Storm.
2) Perhaps for your build but in general mobs are just that,mobs they arent meant to be excessively challenging then again strength in numbers, if you agro enough or enough are present they become quite potent actually.
If you clearly identify CC as a "weakest link style of gameplay" (assuming that is what you are refering to) then why are you telling me my belief in CC being Underpowered is false?
Don't blame the player base for everything, some to most things yes but not everything.
It really isnt a claim that we have gotten more powerful, it is a fact. With the influx of Specs, 3 slot gear and high rank mods not to mention 3 SS style, people have gotten more powerful.
The simple fact is CC has been nerfed. Hard. The intention of the Devs, one which I hope they carry to LIVE is that CC and Telepathy in particular is brought upto speed with the rest of the game styles.
Just because some high DPS builds can wipe out mobs doesnt mean everyone can wipe out mobs that easily.
I frankly feel that the new system is a great way to revitalize CC and Telepathy simultaneously. Why nerf bomb such an improvement, people argue with baseless claims that revitalizing CC will kill off all content. That biased arguement is "utter tosh" to put it lightly. Just because a number of people abused CC pre On Alert, doesnt mean this play style should stay dead. It was killed off and given "The Incapaciderps System". Which has laughable effects on players in PvP and next to Zero use in PvE.
How does your first sentence make any sense? "CC is underpowered because mobs are too easy". CC has been the target of nerfs since On Alert, mobs seem too easy because we have gotten more powerful in many respects. You cannot find a causal link between CC being underpowered and the difficulty rating (according to you) of CO mobs.
Yes, because the fact that mobs can be obliterated in one move doesn't mean a hill of beans. :rolleyes: Seriously, after this one paragraph, it's not even worth looking at the rest. There's no point to CC because mobs don't present a challenge to require it.
Trying to pretend that one isn't directly responsible for the other is like saying that spending more than you can afford isn't responsible for debt. It's obvious you are as biased as you claim Kai is, since you evidently ignore huge bits of what she actually posts.
Agreed. One of my biggest pet-peeves about this game is overly simple mob behavior.
In that other hero MMO mobs buffed/debuffed/supported each other or had significant debuffs against players. These mobes were low in rank but had force multiplying buffs and debuffs making them dangerous if left alone. They needed to be spiked or CCed immediately or the whole fight could go south.
To be clear, i still think there's room for CC to affect high ranking mobs in some limited capacity.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Agreed. One of my biggest pet-peeves about this game is overly simple mob behavior.
In that other hero MMO mobs buffed/debuffed/supported each other or had significant debuffs against players. These mobes were low in rank but had force multiplying buffs and debuffs making them dangerous if left alone. They needed to be spiked or CCed immediately or the whole fight could go south.
To be clear, i still think there's room for CC to affect high ranking mobs in some limited capacity.
Here's the problem with difficulty so far when people compare CoH to CO. CoH, mobs of higher level actually presented a challenge. A level 53 mob was a challenge to a level 50 player, even a geared one. Level 54s were exceptionally dangerous to level 50s. Here in CO, a level 60 mob barely presents a challenge to players. There is a decided issue with how power scale works, when mobs 20 levels over a character aren't all that dangerous.
Yes, because the fact that mobs can be obliterated in one move doesn't mean a hill of beans. :rolleyes: Seriously, after this one paragraph, it's not even worth looking at the rest. There's no point to CC because mobs don't present a challenge to require it.
Trying to pretend that one isn't directly responsible for the other is like saying that spending more than you can afford isn't responsible for debt. It's obvious you are as biased as you claim Kai is, since you evidently ignore huge bits of what she actually posts.
If you are put off by one paragraph, you may not fully grasp what I am trying to get across.
CC is a game mechanic, which is currently dead. Irregardless of the difficulty of CO mobs, I believe the initial worry was against bosses, not mobs. Bosses in CO are difficult enough to require CC. How do you know that Mob AI will not be updated once these CC changes are applied? I'm pretty sure mobs do more damage, its the fact that players can stack defenses, dodge and heals to make a successful combo to roflstomp mobs.
I'm not pretending at all. I wouldnt call myself biased no. I don't ask for nerfs to powers, unless they are actually OP. I do not advocate the nerfing of powers in general. Kai in some respects wishes to nerf CC or allow it to lie in the gutter because it may/ will not affect the build Kai runs. That is bias. I on the otherhand am a proponent of CC due to the simple fact it is dead.
Supporting a revitalization of a dying mechanic which themeatically is sound is not being biased.
As for ignoring huge bits please refer to your first paragraph, if this is true then you have also ignored a large bit of what I am saying.
I do fully (most of the time) read peoples responses and reply accordingly.
The reason why you think CC is not required I believe may be that you perhaps have never tried running a controller? Once you see it from another perspective it may alter your view significantly.
Again, I will stress we are/were talking about BOSS BATTLES not mobs and critters. The issue was of CC being applied and actually working (for once) on Bosses, which is a fantastic idea.
Here's the problem with difficulty so far when people compare CoH to CO. CoH, mobs of higher level actually presented a challenge. A level 53 mob was a challenge to a level 50 player, even a geared one. Level 54s were exceptionally dangerous to level 50s. Here in CO, a level 60 mob barely presents a challenge to players. There is a decided issue with how power scale works, when mobs 20 levels over a character aren't all that dangerous.
You might want to reitterate this to the masses of melee players who got screwed over during this event. Hell, not even melee players any player who got Mega RoflStomped during the event.
If every player was killed instantly by the D Wave, would that be in your opinion a challenge?
Then what would prevent this happening over and over? Oh wait something called Crowd Control would.
It all depends on what type of class you play, FF healers I believe would have little trouble going through content, the same goes for some to most FFs and a few AT's, all being dedicated Tanks, DPSers(both melee and range) and Healers.
Controllers who are out there and yes they remarkably make do with what little they can do with current CC, do not find the same victory in such situations.
If you are put off by one paragraph, you may not fully grasp what I am trying to get across.
You aren't trying to get off anything other than your own personal bias that you feel holds are underpowered and have consistently demonstrated you are unwilling to actually look at what is being said and selectively only pick out what you want to look at.
CC is a game mechanic, which is currently dead. Irregardless of the difficulty of CO mobs, I believe the initial worry was against bosses, not mobs. Bosses in CO are difficult enough to require CC. How do you know that Mob AI will not be updated once these CC changes are applied? I'm pretty sure mobs do more damage, its the fact that players can stack defenses, dodge and heals to make a successful combo to roflstomp mobs.
This entire paragraph is false. Boss mobs do not present much more challenge than standard mobs. They just have more hit points. The only one to present even a remotely difficult challenge is Gravitar and only by virtue that she has easily avoidable, high damage attacks.
I'm not pretending at all. I wouldnt call myself biased no. I don't ask for nerfs to powers, unless they are actually OP. I do not advocate the nerfing of powers in general. Kai in some respects wishes to nerf CC or allow it to lie in the gutter because it may/ will not affect the build Kai runs. That is bias. I on the otherhand am a proponent of CC due to the simple fact it is dead.
Yes, youa re biased. You believe that CC should be overpowered to suit your own biased need to feel that it should be worth something, making already trivial content even more trivial.
Supporting a revitalization of a dying mechanic which themeatically is sound is not being biased.
Yes, it is.
As for ignoring huge bits please refer to your first paragraph, if this is true then you have also ignored a large bit of what I am saying.
I ignored it because you gloss over facts, and you ignore the underlying issues and problems.
I do fully (most of the time) read peoples responses and reply accordingly.
This can be proven false since you believe Kai even asked for a buff to tank role or even that tank role is fine. Again your personal bias overshadows.
The reason why you think CC is not required I believe may be that you perhaps have never tried running a controller? Once you see it from another perspective it may alter your view significantly.
I've ran a controller.
Again, I will stress we are/were talking about BOSS BATTLES not mobs and critters. The issue was of CC being applied and actually working (for once) on Bosses, which is a fantastic idea.
And you want to trivialize already trivial content more. I've already read your threads. You don't comprehend what Kai is typing or anyone else. You just want to overpower the abilities, instead Kai is telling you that she thinks that anyone being able to solo high end mobs is dumb, but you can't see that. And frankly, your understanding of balance is also paper thin, since what you want out of your CC would do just that anyways.
You might want to reitterate this to the masses of melee players who got screwed over during this event. Hell, not even melee players any player who got Mega RoflStomped during the event.
If every player was killed instantly by the D Wave, would that be in your opinion a challenge?
Then what would prevent this happening over and over? Oh wait something called Crowd Control would.
It all depends on what type of class you play, FF healers I believe would have little trouble going through content, the same goes for some to most FFs and a few AT's, all being dedicated Tanks, DPSers(both melee and range) and Healers.
Controllers who are out there and yes they remarkably make do with what little they can do with current CC, do not find the same victory in such situations.
I'm sorry people can't avoid widely telegraphed and easy to mitigate attacks. The people I've seen complain about I watched in the melee to begin with, like ones who fight on the same side as a person who is taking taking the full brunt of the conal AE attacks. And saying they got screwed. Wow you really don't understand the mechanics. If they did 1 damage they still got rewarded for their efforts and had the same chance as everyone to get the same reward. No one got screwed out of the fight except those that felt they should always get something for nothing.
Personal attacks aside, I want people to enjoy "being the hero they want to be". There are many specific gameplay elements that are encompassed in this, including:
There are hybrids of ALL of the above. However, specializing in ONE of the playstyles above one stands out as EXTREMELY crappy compared to its counterparts of specialization. Almost all of these are viable play-styles in the upcoming champions playstyle. If you remove inturrupts you remove the ability to play a specialized controller debuffer.
There are admittedly two sides to the argument. I do not wish to invalidate those who prefer other playstyles.. but more importantly I do not wish to BE invalidated in my chosen play-style.
In a just system, one that is not biased, playing a controller would perform admirably against bosses just as the others can.
Personal attacks aside, I want people to enjoy "being the hero they want to be". There are many specific gameplay elements that are encompassed in this, including:
Ranged Tank
Melee Tank
Ranged DPS
Melee DPS
Pet DPS
Pet Healer
Stealth Spike
Controller (Debuffer)
Healer (Buffer)
There are hybrids of ALL of the above. However, specializing in ONE of the playstyles above one stands out as EXTREMELY crappy compared to its counterparts of specialization. Almost all of these are viable play-styles in the upcoming champions playstyle. If you remove inturrupts you remove the ability to play a specialized controller debuffer.
There are admittedly two sides to the argument. I do not wish to invalidate those who prefer other playstyles.. but more importantly I do not wish to BE invalidated in my chosen play-style.
In a just system, one that is not biased, playing a controller would perform admirably against bosses just as the others can.
The reason why this is so hard to balance, is that the viability of interrupts and critter debuffs in general, is scaling the opposite way other play styles do.
When I play my dps I accept I will not oneshot a legendary, and be in danger of dying. If gravitar is an example of future gameplay tanks will not be able to protect everyone from being hit. Healers have more people to heal and rez in 10 player content. Pets die very fast with the massive aoe attacks.
All those play styles are less effective/important per player the more complicated and bigger and harder the fights are.
But a debuffer will be at its very best against a single strong target, and since that is what most people expect to be the hardest content in the game, there is a conflict.
This is why debuffs need to be less effective/work differently on legendaries then on the default minions, without that difference balancing the controller play style is impossible (at least while hard disables are in the game and expected).
Ultimately, it is possible to make CC do something worthwhile without trivializing content for everyone else.
Is it probable that it'll be done right? Probably not.
If I had to hazard to guess, cramming interrupts as is, haphazardly, into boss fights, is not going to go all that well. And if they nerfed a certain 'smoke' power on Gravitar, why introduce a similar trivializing factor now?
If the concept of CC on bosses is actually approached as a big ordeal, time spent to balance and test sensitively, I'd be all for it. If not, if it's 'here, lets enable this checkbox and see what happens!' then I strongly feel the Devs should just keep that in Pandora's Box until they are actually ready for what madness will come from it.
And yes, '99% of mobs, insta-gib with AoE with 0 problems' is part of the issue with non-boss fights. But in the reallyreallyultrafastdontstopnownownow playstyle of this game, which is only accelerating, this is only ever going to change so much.
I'm not pretending at all. I wouldnt call myself biased no. I don't ask for nerfs to powers, unless they are actually OP. I do not advocate the nerfing of powers in general. Kai in some respects wishes to nerf CC or allow it to lie in the gutter because it may/ will not affect the build Kai runs. That is bias. I on the otherhand am a proponent of CC due to the simple fact it is dead.
Supporting a revitalization of a dying mechanic which themeatically is sound is not being biased.
You might want to reitterate this to the masses of melee players who got screwed over during this event. Hell, not even melee players any player who got Mega RoflStomped during the event.
Damn straight! Quoted for truth! Right on, you nailed it here. You couldn't be any more accurate with this bit if you tried.
Glad to see some people on the forums are still capable of using their brain. Once again, I have little that needs to really be added to this because I'm in total agreement.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
1) Disables are the lowest and worst form of crowd control. We are not talking about HOLDING bosses. Unlike proper holds they are not offer no debuffs through specializations nor any benefit to game-play except to inturrupt big bosses.
2) Being able to use disables does NOT turn enemies into "HP bags". It simply removes ONE mechanic out of boss fights.. the Schtick. And to USE the disable mechanic effectively the player will be HELLA squishy. SO much so that one Punch (not the schtick attack but the punch) from a mega-destroid was enough to kill my toon completely. Thankfully Congress of Selves now comes with lowered aggro to help this happen less often.
3) These powers are on a relatively LARGE cooldown. Using them in succession successfully requires an investment of not only power and advantage points.. but a rather large investment in a INT - a stat that offers no innate offense and no innate defense.
- -
EVEN with my 700 INT it was not possible to solo even ONE of the lvl 60 mega-destroids - BEFORE they had 2 destroids and BEFORE there were mobs that spawned. If you want to post a video soloing the destroids, i encourage you to try using interrupts. Its simply not going to happen due to the inturrupts alone.. ONLY WHEN SUPPORTING A TEAM does the mechanic even become REMOTELY possible - aka working as designed.
Your argument would be weak IF your assesment to turn enemies into punching bags were a correct assessment, but your argument is even WEAKER because that is simply NOT what happens.
Why is it ok for a nearly unkillable in pve tank to never be at risk of death, but it's wrong for a squishy to have the capacity to interrupt or hold a legendary or cosmic? Do you not see the bias here, its fine if you get to play the way you do, but if someone like jaybezz wants to run a troller style he gets screwed over.
.
Those two examples are not even close to being comparable.
"I built my character so that he is unlikely to die in PvE," is nowhere near to, "I built my character to render your opponents helpless and thereby prevent you from engaging in a fight."
The first quote references a player who has built his character in a fashion that causes it to fulfill his personal preferences in gameplay. The second quote references a player who built his character to impact another player's gameplay (up to and including preventing the other player from playing).
I'm sorry people can't avoid widely telegraphed and easy to mitigate attacks. The people I've seen complain about I watched in the melee to begin with, like ones who fight on the same side as a person who is taking taking the full brunt of the conal AE attacks. And saying they got screwed. Wow you really don't understand the mechanics. If they did 1 damage they still got rewarded for their efforts and had the same chance as everyone to get the same reward. No one got screwed out of the fight except those that felt they should always get something for nothing.
First thing is, at endgame level the attacks are easy to mitigate, because the level of mitigation we have available to us is overpowered. If mitigation were at the same level as CC, you could stack as much mitigation they'd allow, and you'd only prevent a trivial ammount of damage and die, or you'd have a moment of invincibility then it'd be gone and you'd die. Outside endgame level is a good example. The Mega-D attacks hit me, through block, for about 7k. That's about 2.5 times my health at that level (22 when I had no one to SK, or I was avoiding the level up bug), and I'd have no real hope to reach that level of health.
As for easily avoidable, the robots were larger than my field of view. Now there may have been a way to zoom out farther that I didn't notice, but neither the right thumbstick click (Controller) or the middle mouse button roll let me zoom far enough to see the indicators for both Mega-Ds. One I could avoid (using the target popup indicators) but the other one always rolled me, and even block spamming wouldn't have saved me.
The thing is this. Either everything needs to get dropped to useless levels, making everyone dependant on each other to do anything, or CC needs to come up to the level everything else. Yes, CC is dangerous to buff as it is mitigation and attack, rolled into one, but it can be done. Kaizerin is right to be nervious of the potential fubar from a CC review, but a buff is needed as this isn't and shouldn't be a trinity game. Interrupts are dangerous, and I don't expect them to last long as they tend to die quickly after being allowed. At least that's what the history was in the very beginning when I first tried CO, so it really is important to consider an alternative suggestion now.
CC and Tanks have the same role. Right now, however, only one is of any use. It also seems the game is tending to the Tank + Off tank + heal + DPS type of gameplay, and that would send me away quick. I'd play WoW if I wanted that, and have fewer bugs for the trouble. This game is far too versitile for that, it's strong in ways only CoH could beat it, and it would be a shotgun to the foot to try and build away from what this game actually has going for it.
Now I just have to mention the sillyness of the 1 damage same reward comment. They were screwed, the event wasn't well designed for non-tank melee. Some people like to play the game, even if it is just cutting enemies down like a lawnmower. Others like to play the game and have it challenging. I don't know of many people who think hitting an enemy once with the EB, then getting facerolled on the ground by the boot of a building sized robot, until someone else kills it, is any fun at all. Equal reward or not.
You aren't trying to get off anything other than your own personal bias that you feel holds are underpowered and have consistently demonstrated you are unwilling to actually look at what is being said and selectively only pick out what you want to look at.
I could actually say the same about alot of other people.
This entire paragraph is false. Boss mobs do not present much more challenge than standard mobs. They just have more hit points. The only one to present even a remotely difficult challenge is Gravitar and only by virtue that she has easily avoidable, high damage attacks.
Yes, youa re biased. You believe that CC should be overpowered to suit your own biased need to feel that it should be worth something, making already trivial content even more trivial.
You clearly misunderstand my intentions then. I am not biased I support the idea, I don't think CC should be overpowered neither did I state anywhere I want to be, get your facts straight and stop trying to accuse me of things I never said. What is wrong with wanting CC to be worth something exactly? It is the same as anyone else's desire to buff a certain mechanic or power.
I ignored it because you gloss over facts, and you ignore the underlying issues and problems.
Such as? The fact that a certain playstyle will be revived? That for once controllers will have a niche and not get screwed over like melee players in Destroid Event? The only issues here are the fact that CCers will once again pose a threat in PvP and will also be useful in content. The problem really is your own problem, there is nothing wrong with the CC which is to be brought out. Any problem present is your own, do not attribute it to a game mechanic.
This can be proven false since you believe Kai even asked for a buff to tank role or even that tank role is fine. Again your personal bias overshadows.
This is one cited example. I did say if you fully read it that I most of the time read all of peoples responses.
Was that a hero with one or two control attacks? Did you run it to lvl 40? Or was this controller toon of yours in existance before On Alert? I am inclined to believe it was before On Alert. If so you arent seeing the issue with CC. If not, I would like to know why you think a CC power introduction such as this is not necessary.
And you want to trivialize already trivial content more. I've already read your threads. You don't comprehend what Kai is typing or anyone else. You just want to overpower the abilities, instead Kai is telling you that she thinks that anyone being able to solo high end mobs is dumb, but you can't see that. And frankly, your understanding of balance is also paper thin, since what you want out of your CC would do just that anyways.
It's great to see that you read what I write. It is a shame to see that you for a large part do not understand. Admittedly before, I was extremely keen to overpower telepathy and force, my keeness came out of a desire to match up to other players builds and other powersets. Of course I understand what people type, I speak english and I can write it too. No need for personal attacks, but if you want to go down that road that's not very wise but we can go there. Right now, I want to see decent CC. What we have on LIVE is not decent CC, on the PTS, that is decent CC in my most favorite powerset, so a double whammy in my opinion.
Adding CC powers will not really enable people to solo end game content. Kai's video about tanking and blocking mechanic, in my eyes is just wow, I didnt think it was possible and I was proved wrong.
I never have asked for soloing endgame content CC. So don't act like, you know what I want because you have been wrong so far. Let me make it clear for future reference.
I want CC to be a useful part of CO, the current implementation of CC is dead. I support the revitalization of the CC mechanic. I also support allowing CC to be able to contribute to endgame content.
Note here I did not use the words content removing, making bosses my personal dummies, overpowered CC or nullifying the usefulness of other playstyles or the team function.
A good example of this is when Mega D's attacked whilst Telepathy powers were still on PTS. I dont recall my controller build being able to solo Mega D because I used interrupts, I don't recall stopping it from functioning or attacking for more than 2 seconds. I dont recall every other player giving up on the Mega D simply because I used CC.
As for easily avoidable, the robots were larger than my field of view. Now there may have been a way to zoom out farther that I didn't notice, but neither the right thumbstick click (Controller) or the middle mouse button roll let me zoom far enough to see the indicators for both Mega-Ds. One I could avoid (using the target popup indicators) but the other one always rolled me, and even block spamming wouldn't have saved me..
the /camdist command can set your camera distance back so that you have a better view of a large opponent while in melee with them.
Been a while since Ive used it so please, any of you who remember the details, post.
You clearly misunderstand my intentions then. I am not biased I support the idea.
Part of the misunderstanding on this matter might be the fact that supporting one position (buff CC in this case) over another position (dont buff CC) is a definition of bias.
Yes you are biased. So is Silverspar. You both have opinions that contradict an alternative opinion. That is bias.
Pretty much everyone expressing an opinion here is demonstrating a bias. That is normal an acceptable.
There are three DIFFERENT cases that I intended to make:
1) Interrupts are not over powered. This is the case most contested
also 2) There is a huge disparity and injustice between all other playstyles and the controller playstyle. Without inturrupts there is no possible benefit to the controller playstyle in a boss fight. THIS is the injustice.
then 3) The player-base has a history of bias against controllers.
I could actually say the same about alot of other people.
And yet you continue to keep putting words in people's mouths. The histrionics is silly, the fact you keep missing the point being made and instead choose to blatantly ignore it is ridiculous.
If you think it is false you have misread it.
I didn't misread it. If you believe boss mobs are not trivial in the game then don't know what to tell you since a large complaint that has been around for a long time is how trivial they are.
You clearly misunderstand my intentions then. I am not biased I support the idea, I don't think CC should be overpowered neither did I state anywhere I want to be, get your facts straight and stop trying to accuse me of things I never said. What is wrong with wanting CC to be worth something exactly? It is the same as anyone else's desire to buff a certain mechanic or power.
There's nothing to get straight. You want CCs to shut down bosses like minions. If you don't think that will make already trivial content even more trivial then you do miss the point. There is no fact to get straight on that matter.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so I will stress not only my opinion but also a fact. No it is not.
You can say it's not till you are blue in the face, but you still keep missing the point and wish to continue to ignore it despite it's been carefully explained to you multiple times.
Such as? The fact that a certain playstyle will be revived? That for once controllers will have a niche and not get screwed over like melee players in Destroid Event? The only issues here are the fact that CCers will once again pose a threat in PvP and will also be useful in content. The problem really is your own problem, there is nothing wrong with the CC which is to be brought out. Any problem present is your own, do not attribute it to a game mechanic.
It won't revive the playstyle anymore than buffing heals will revive healers in this game. People will still choose damage over holds because damage is more useful. Making holds powerful enough to shut down bosses just makes the game even easier, trivializes the content more and just removes more needs for teams. It isn't a playstyle argument, it's just a fact you refuse to see.
This is one cited example. I did say if you fully read it that I most of the time read all of peoples responses.
Except seeing your responses in this thread, you blatantly didn't.
Was that a hero with one or two control attacks? Did you run it to lvl 40? Or was this controller toon of yours in existance before On Alert? I am inclined to believe it was before On Alert. If so you arent seeing the issue with CC. If not, I would like to know why you think a CC power introduction such as this is not necessary.
I have a controller toon now, I rarely use the control because, guess what, its' better to do damage. Just like it was back before On Alert. Trying to claim controls were some how mystically better when they weren't.
It is a shame to see that you for a large part do not understand.
There's nothing to misunderstand. People have tried to explain why, and you refuse to understand.
Adding CC powers will not really enable people to solo end game content. Kai's video about tanking and blocking mechanic, in my eyes is just wow, I didnt think it was possible and I was proved wrong.
I'm sorry, but this has been possible for a very long time. On Alert didn't enable this. People have been soloing content in this game for a while. They've used a variety of builds, not just tank builds.
I never have asked for soloing endgame content CC. So don't act like, you know what I want because you have been wrong so far. Let me make it clear for future reference.
I want CC to be a useful part of CO, the current implementation of CC is dead. I support the revitalization of the CC mechanic. I also support allowing CC to be able to contribute to endgame content.
If you want your CCs to affect bosses then you want it to affect endgame contnet. And for it to be useful in the long run, then mobs will have to be tougher. Again, the part you refuse to listen to.
Note here I did not use the words content removing, making bosses my personal dummies, overpowered CC or nullifying the usefulness of other playstyles or the team function.
A good example of this is when Mega D's attacked whilst Telepathy powers were still on PTS. I dont recall my controller build being able to solo Mega D because I used interrupts, I don't recall stopping it from functioning or attacking for more than 2 seconds. I dont recall every other player giving up on the Mega D simply because I used CC.
Just because you couldn't doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. Doing this would be just like smoke grenade, making a fight pointless for anyone beyond belief. And believing that in any fashion that a controller based build couldn't lock a mob down for more than 2 seconds at a time while piling on the DPS seems to be extremely pessimistic on what players have done in the past in this game. Example of how battles were made trivial, when Shadow's Embrace advantage use to affect cosmics, all people would do was spam that to constantly keep the cosmic bounced around the area. The cosmic was incapable of attacking thus making it an easy kill.
I would disagree that "my desired" CC play style would destroy everyone elses, most people when it comes to bosses, yes they want a challenge but they also want a reward at the end for their efforts. I am not ignorant to the fact that some things still need to be tweaked, that is the whole point of PTS is it not? I'm not the only one who wants CC to be a valid part of CO. If I was I'd count myself extremely lucky to be so important that Devs decide not only to buff my favorite powerset but also a dead mechanic.
Giving Interrupts stacks of resistance is not thoughtfulness it is just not very practical in terms of it then makes it lie down next to the old holds system. I can appreciate useful suggestions which don't nerf new components too hard unless they are needed. In this case the only things which need to be thought about is the AI it is meant to effect and how they will be effected. The bottom line for me is I want CC to be a useful part of this game, allowing players to invest in it and not get screwed over. You don't see any other mechanic which is nerfed so greatly it has no effect against bosses? Why should CC only work where plain damage would just slice though it like a knife though butter?
Charged CC is good in certain situations, I am not disputing that CC can be useful in some situations by no means am I doing so. I just want CC to be better and on par with other mechanics and play styles such as DPS
I'm sorry people can't avoid widely telegraphed and easy to mitigate attacks. The people I've seen complain about I watched in the melee to begin with, like ones who fight on the same side as a person who is taking taking the full brunt of the conal AE attacks. And saying they got screwed. Wow you really don't understand the mechanics. If they did 1 damage they still got rewarded for their efforts and had the same chance as everyone to get the same reward. No one got screwed out of the fight except those that felt they should always get something for nothing.
It's funny how me talking about what actually happened to people even who flew too close to mega d or who were low on hp and didnt have time to react to Gravitar's bubble or whatever the scenario is you seem to project it onto me.
So doing one damage should allow you a reward? Whereas getting second on the leaderboard should provide you with crummy green gear? Anyway thats old news.
If you think no one got screwed you should really speak to seasoned FF players who's builds did get trashed even through block and those poor Melee AT's and FFs who for some strange reason cant survive 17k through block.
I wouldnt say being low on HP and blocking will save you from Gravitar's Yellow bubble. I've tried..doesnt work. Maybe it's because I was using a behemoth with rank 3 block and unbreakable up and with 4k hp left.
It's funny how me talking about what actually happened to people even who flew too close to mega d or who were low on hp and didnt have time to react to Gravitar's bubble or whatever the scenario is you seem to project it onto me.
So doing one damage should allow you a reward? Whereas getting second on the leaderboard should provide you with crummy green gear? Anyway thats old news.
If you think no one got screwed you should really speak to seasoned FF players who's builds did get trashed even through block and those poor Melee AT's and FFs who for some strange reason cant survive 17k through block.
I wouldnt say being low on HP and blocking will save you from Gravitar's Yellow bubble. I've tried..doesnt work. Maybe it's because I was using a behemoth with rank 3 block and unbreakable up and with 4k hp left.
Yes, because running out of Gravitar's bubble is hard? You aren't suppose to stand there and take a yellow bubble you are suppose to avoid it. The high damage should point that fact out, and it's easy to know when a yellow bubble is coming, so you can't sit there and say it's random. It isn't. It always follows her hold in her last third of health. It's not a matter that I can survive it's it is a matter I get out of it before it goes off.
Seriously, people want more complicated mechanics when they can't handle a simple one like that? And don't say that more complicated but less damaging. Because if it was less damaging then people would just ignore it and not even bother with complicated mechanics. Examples: Dr. D's factory with the molten led pots, Ripper in VIPER's Nest with the using of the key to break the Dreysha canisers, and Dr. Demoguard, taking out the scientists to keep them from summoning more raptors. Therakiel and using the light on people when they get held, Using stakes on Valid Dracul to keep him from healing, or the fact people complain that Shadow Destroyer's bubble in resistance is too tough, when that's the point and you use the shadow spheres to break it.
And mega D's have the same telegraph as they've had since launch when it comes to their mega attack. They squat with big electrical sparks coming off them.
And yet you continue to keep putting words in people's mouths. The histrionics is silly, the fact you keep missing the point being made and instead choose to blatantly ignore it is ridiculous.
Actually rather than putting words in peoples mouths I assume things or highlight things, things which people respond to accordingly.
I didn't misread it. If you believe boss mobs are not trivial in the game then don't know what to tell you since a large complaint that has been around for a long time is how trivial they are.
Well, I personally feel that they are ok. Some players feel they need a buff to be more challenging others do not.
There's nothing to get straight. You want CCs to shut down bosses like minions. If you don't think that will make already trivial content even more trivial then you do miss the point. There is no fact to get straight on that matter.
*sigh* Again more accusations. Interrupting a boss does not shut it down. I don't think I can say this is a more simplistic fashion. Interrupting minions do not shut them down. The only point I fail to understand is why you think CC will kill content. It doesnt on PTS so why should it magically do so on LIVE?
You can say it's not till you are blue in the face, but you still keep missing the point and wish to continue to ignore it despite it's been carefully explained to you multiple times.
Fine. I have gone blue in the face what now? We seem either to be missing each others points OR attacking each other personally or making accusations. Seriously now, I dont recall saying half the things you say that I do.
It won't revive the playstyle anymore than buffing heals will revive healers in this game. People will still choose damage over holds because damage is more useful. Making holds powerful enough to shut down bosses just makes the game even easier, trivializes the content more and just removes more needs for teams. It isn't a playstyle argument, it's just a fact you refuse to see.
I think it will, and I think some people frankly don't want it revived. Of course it won't revive the healing support playstyle anymore than it does because...healing mechanic isnt 95% dead, you don't get screwed over if you invest in a full healer build as much as you would to make a decent crowd controller build. Holds don't last an eternity and hold resist stacks still exist. Holds are extremely delicate, the slightlest damage can now break them instantly. Making CC work on end game bosses is not really and issue, I mean who would be able to hold Gravitar for an entire rampage alert without some negative side effect? Likely even if CC does start to work on End game content, unlike DPS it would be auto trivialized, bosses at cosmic or higher level could gain 2 stacks of hold resist per single hold or have longer durations of Hold Resist stacks, something will likely be implemented to stop abuse of holds working on bosses.
I have a controller toon now, I rarely use the control because, guess what, its' better to do damage. Just like it was back before On Alert. Trying to claim controls were some how mystically better when they weren't.
Why cant this fact be altered so that using CC is just as fun, as potent and as useful as damage? Try out maintained holds, you'll see the incapaciderp system was a huge nerf to crowd control, so it wasnt mystically better before On Alert. I remember testing Ego Storm before On Alert and after the update. There was a significant difference, so I'd say such a difference made CC better before On Alert.
There's nothing to misunderstand. People have tried to explain why, and you refuse to understand.
I don't appreciate people insulting me for no reason, Please stop. I have reitterated this point to you before. I do understand, I just have an opinion. Just like you understand what you see from me on your screen and reply with your own opinion
I'm sorry, but this has been possible for a very long time. On Alert didn't enable this. People have been soloing content in this game for a while. They've used a variety of builds, not just tank builds.
If you want your CCs to affect bosses then you want it to affect endgame contnet. And for it to be useful in the long run, then mobs will have to be tougher. Again, the part you refuse to listen to.
Since you have read "all my replies", you should be familiar with the one where I back the decision to update AI to take into account new CC developments. And it's not "my CC" I don't own it lol. But the fact that you say this makes me see that already you view this play style as a waste of time and useless. The whole point of making new CC powers was to counter this view of CC.
Just because you couldn't doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. Doing this would be just like smoke grenade, making a fight pointless for anyone beyond belief. And believing that in any fashion that a controller based build couldn't lock a mob down for more than 2 seconds at a time while piling on the DPS seems to be extremely pessimistic on what players have done in the past in this game. Example of how battles were made trivial, when Shadow's Embrace advantage use to affect cosmics, all people would do was spam that to constantly keep the cosmic bounced around the area. The cosmic was incapable of attacking thus making it an easy kill.
Are you telling me if the Mega D event was magically up again in late October and the New Telepathy CC and damage Powers were released alongside it, the minute someone saw 3 telepaths with the new powers would abandon a potentially large amount of G and resources and points and just act like: "Oh look telepaths with CC powers, obviously they can tank, put out high damage and provide significant heals to finish off 2 4million Destroids, lets leave them and move on."
I am not talking about what used to be done, I am talking about the here and now and the future of CC really. Perhaps that's why some are so reluctant to allow these powers to go through, because of past "OP" CC.
No one complains when damage output is increased, no one complains when healing is increased, but when CC is being increased and made useful everyone complains. I get the fact that it needs to be balanced, but I specifically want to be able to go into a boss battle and think right I can do something here rather than sitting redundantly passively and actively healing people and locking down an opponent for a short spell before a stray bullet awakens them. You may view this as a failure on my part, but to be honest, investing in CC should not be a snorefest, nor should it be easily avoidable, nor should I be punished for doing so. Some people like to build thematically, not all players build to win or whisk through content.
Yes, because running out of Gravitar's bubble is hard? You aren't suppose to stand there and take a yellow bubble you are suppose to avoid it. The high damage should point that fact out, and it's easy to know when a yellow bubble is coming, so you can't sit there and say it's random. It isn't. It always follows her hold in her last third of health. It's not a matter that I can survive it's it is a matter I get out of it before it goes off.
Seriously, people want more complicated mechanics when they can't handle a simple one like that? And don't say that more complicated but less damaging. Because if it was less damaging then people would just ignore it and not even bother with complicated mechanics. Examples: Dr. D's factory with the molten led pots, Ripper in VIPER's Nest with the using of the key to break the Dreysha canisers, and Dr. Demoguard, taking out the scientists to keep them from summoning more raptors. Therakiel and using the light on people when they get held, Using stakes on Valid Dracul to keep him from healing, or the fact people complain that Shadow Destroyer's bubble in resistance is too tough, when that's the point and you use the shadow spheres to break it.
And mega D's have the same telegraph as they've had since launch when it comes to their mega attack. They squat with big electrical sparks coming off them.
Sadly my thinking and general gameplay with my behemoth isnt as well as it should be, when playing as my behemoth I take things slowly and usually stand around and punch rather than try very badly at being nimble. This is by no means your problem, I'm just saying. Usually I am the centre mark for the bubble, the situation I was refering too was the case where her targetting reticule was on me. So running around when I am conscious that other people apart from me will die if I try to run, would make the possibility of me killing of a healer or DPSer more real.
I really didnt say her bubble was random. However who she picks for it is a bit random IMO.
I did try several times to get this right whilst in melee mode with my master and failed. With all the tempests applying negative ions, sadly I wasnt able to see whether it had Negative Ions and was using eye laser or was powering up D Wave, I suspect melee builds might have had a similar problem which is why there was so much complaint.
Seriously, people want more complicated mechanics when they can't handle a simple one like that?
Don't generalise my example of myself and a few other people to everyone, clearly you and I'd imagine a considerable amount of people can handle simple mechanics against the odds.
So last night me and Veraal Duo'd Therakiel's temple with him using an AoRP healing build and me using Cally, my gadgeteer with expirimental blaster as her primary attack... didn't stake Vlad, didn't bother to break Val's death beam targeting, Vee just stood in the light during thrakky and was immune to holds and immediately just broke me out when i was held. Took us all of an hour or so? I can tell you, bosses are pretty trivial now...
All in all I ended up with the voodoo feather shoulders unlock as the only worthwhile reward out of the whole run.
I do notice that the same group of people are always the one asking for nerfs. However, the nerfs proposed are not well thought through or in fact there are no real proposed way of nerfing. Perhaps because the nerf simply does not affect them.
Of course there are also the elitists who think everyone plays like a noob and seem to be satisfied that there should only be one way of game play. Theirs.
So last night me and Veraal Duo'd Therakiel's temple with him using an AoRP healing build and me using Cally, my gadgeteer with expirimental blaster as her primary attack... didn't stake Vlad, didn't bother to break Val's death beam targeting, Vee just stood in the light during thrakky and was immune to holds and immediately just broke me out when i was held. Took us all of an hour or so? I can tell you, bosses are pretty trivial now...
All in all I ended up with the voodoo feather shoulders unlock as the only worthwhile reward out of the whole run.
So last night me and Veraal Duo'd Therakiel's temple with him using an AoRP healing build and me using Cally, my gadgeteer with expirimental blaster as her primary attack... didn't stake Vlad, didn't bother to break Val's death beam targeting, Vee just stood in the light during thrakky and was immune to holds and immediately just broke me out when i was held. Took us all of an hour or so? I can tell you, bosses are pretty trivial now...
All in all I ended up with the voodoo feather shoulders unlock as the only worthwhile reward out of the whole run.
*Here's to the death of meaningful content.*
You learnt the mechanics and hence it is trivial. Can I ask did you block his sword spin? Or did your healer bubble you through it? Or perhaps you have enough HP and gear to stand through it and still have some left so that you can pop resurgence or conviction or your healer can iniquity you?
The old bosses are much easier to do now simply because HP, damage and defenses are higher (forms, specs, gear) that is without a doubt. Can we raise the bosses damage, HP and defenses? Certainly and we should, but should we not scale it to what the players have gained?
You learnt the mechanics and hence it is trivial. Can I ask did you block his sword spin? Or did your healer bubble you through it? Or perhaps you have enough HP and gear to stand through it and still have some left so that you can pop resurgence or conviction or your healer can iniquity you?
The old bosses are much easier to do now simply because HP, damage and defenses are higher (forms, specs, gear) that is without a doubt. Can we raise the bosses damage, HP and defenses? Certainly and we should, but should we not scale it to what the players have gained?
This argument is silly because they were trivial before On Alert. They only became more so after On Alert. People were duoing or soloing lair bosses for a long time now.
This argument is silly because they were trivial before On Alert. They only became more so after On Alert. People were duoing or soloing lair bosses for a long time now.
In comparison to what though? Other MMOs?
In comparison to much of the game's content, TT is probably still up there and was before On Alert. I mean, it warranted a guide at one time (as I know you're aware, hee hee). No one has any use for a guide on how to roflstomp Black Fang in Dockside Dustup.
There is a gradient of overall difficulty, it isn't 'everything less than this equals 0', not to most players/builds. To The Optimal Primes, yes.
And wasn't wesley calling for an increase of difficulty? Why is that silly?
Ultimately people avoid TT not due to it being trivial, but because rewards in combination with time spent do not make it worth it. And if it did, it'd probably be farmed like Nemcon...
I dunno what CoH you played because I am sure most tanks, brutes, and scrappers would disagree with this. I know my Willpower brute would disagree with I generally tanked everything. CC was practically unecesarry tehre as it is in Champions. On that note, I think you are reading too far into Kai's post since Kai has never been a fan of one character being able to solo everything.
I wasn't thinking about the easy stuff. I was thinking along the lines of master of statesman's task force, which was the hardest badge to acquire at the time, and still harder than anything that has been offered in CO.
It's one thing for the tougher folks to survive, it's another to have all 5 avoid a single death across an entire task force while actually having squishy dps that doesn't self heal
I wasn't thinking about the easy stuff. I was thinking along the lines of master of statesman's task force, which was the hardest badge to acquire at the time, and still harder than anything that has been offered in CO.
It's one thing for the tougher folks to survive, it's another to have all 5 avoid a single death across an entire task force while actually having squishy dps that doesn't self heal
Even CC wasn't required there. Many people got that without a controller or dominator and without a stone tanker either. Perma sleeping them made it way easier, but it also removed any challenge from the ending which was suppose to be challenging. In short it turned an award for doing something in a way that few would conceive of into a trivial thing.
In comparison to much of the game's content, TT is probably still up there and was before On Alert. I mean, it warranted a guide at one time (as I know you're aware, hee hee). No one has any use for a guide on how to roflstomp Black Fang in Dockside Dustup.
There is a gradient of overall difficulty, it isn't 'everything less than this equals 0', not to most players/builds. To The Optimal Primes, yes.
And wasn't wesley calling for an increase of difficulty? Why is that silly?
Ultimately people avoid TT not due to it being trivial, but because rewards in combination with time spent do not make it worth it. And if it did, it'd probably be farmed like Nemcon...
That guide became obsolete when the difficult of every encounter in the lair was nerfed. Encounters in Champions have been nerfed dramatically, and TT has been duo'able for a long time now, before On Alert. The only reason to take a team into TT is because of the light puzzles.
It wasn't because people "learned" the instance, because that's furthest from the truth since veteran players I still have to explain how to work that bloody light puzzles, it is because the encounters are now trivial. A lot of their unique mechanics were removed, such as Dracul's bite he uses or his blood siphon ability. Black Fang barely uses his iron cyclone or stomp that pulls people in. Hell even Valerian Scarlet barely rates on the scary meter, and she's the least nerfed of all the encounters.
It's like with Shadow Destroyer. Shadow Destroyer use to be deadly, but he was nerfed long before On Alert. Blocking his shadow bolts was actually something you wanted to do, now people don't even bother because it's trivial damage. Even his Qliphoth phase was deadly, but now it's ignored because it's not even noticeable. All these mechanics have been trivialized so much for all the wrong reasons. Instead of people wanting to learn them, people just wanted them nerfed to be ignorable.
That guide became obsolete when the difficult of every encounter in the lair was nerfed. Encounters in Champions have been nerfed dramatically, and TT has been duo'able for a long time now, before On Alert. The only reason to take a team into TT is because of the light puzzles.
Well, all the more reason to bump the rewards and the difficulty again, but I guess with it not being 'new', fat chance.
Too bad Seck completely missed the point Kai was actually making actually. But it's also biased that people want to be buffed to trivialize content. It's easy to say one side the argument is being biased, when the exact opposite was actually said, especially when you falsely believe that a control aspect is underpowered. Especially when people have the view that CC was mandatory or even required in City of Heroes, and to that point I say, they weren't.
No, I get she wants a challenge - I don't mind that, it's pretty apparent she's fearful of anything that may make things easier. My point was that there's nothing particularly difficult in CO to begin with.
I can solo an elite level 40 Mega-Destroid Terminator with an AT (really anything). It's a complete waste of time other than being able to say you've done it. To beat something that basically "cheats" the mechanics, you have to use the mechanics to your own advantage. I currently only know of one method that works, as anything else would just result in you dying.
Being able to interrupt cosmics and legendaries doesn't suddenly change the dynamic. A solo player or team that could beat Teliosaur would do it without relying on the interrupt to begin with. Darn thing still hurts regardless of the big chargeup shtick powers. Interrupting said attacks just makes the beast more manageable. Hell, something as weak as Mega-Terak can one shot most of my ATs just by being in range, yet if I actually want to beat him I simply use my knowledge of working game mechanics to make it effortless. When a single hit is enough to kill, preventing damage is pretty important. When preventing damage draws the line between success and failure, preventing said damage doesn't trivialize the content - it's simply making it possible.
Of course there are also the elitists who think everyone plays like a noob and seem to be satisfied that there should only be one way of game play. Theirs.
Personal Note:
This, at its core, is what I'm fighting against. I am a numbers cruncher (by trade even) but just because I know there are godmode builds available to me, I still choose to play the game my way.
I play a controller.. which (until these interrupt powers) has meant sitting back and doing nothing in boss fights. I have seen amazing tanks. I've been 1 shot by DPS users. I've seen stealth players pop up and gank a boss in one hit. I've been buffed to crazyness with Support Biffers, I've seen petmasters melt down even Grond.. All while I can do nothing but watch.
I am PERSONALLY looking forward to feeling like a badass just as the other mechanics have. Even if my badassery comes with NO recognition to Open Mission ranks.
- -
On a seperate note:
Gentleman Crush.. I do think Inturrupts could come with a high amount of threat generation (not enough to take aggro from a good tank.. but enough so that if the player is not in Support or Ranged DPS role (threat reduction) nor using Congress of Selves (more threat reduction) and not also using Mind Wipe/Absolve (ultimate threat reduction) they will find themselves in a compromising position in a boss fight.
I have always maintained that crowd control should come with high threat generation (specifically in PvP). Its very much a "get them, they are dangerous" mechanic. I had created a sonic framework idea somewhere that also used interrupts but ran as a tank. The increase in threat was because of the crowd control (and knocks) that come with set.. the same principle should be applied to crowd control.
Even CC wasn't required there. Many people got that without a controller or dominator and without a stone tanker either. Perma sleeping them made it way easier, but it also removed any challenge from the ending which was suppose to be challenging. In short it turned an award for doing something in a way that few would conceive of into a trivial thing.
Perma sleep = CC. I got through it with a flame tank covering me. The challenge wasn't so much the content as finding 5 capable players able to invest the time to get through it. I had to watch my threat gen as a blaster, and avoid taking hits as all it would take was one big one to finish me off. The challenge was having 5 players that could fill opposing roles and avoid a single defeat by any throughout an entire TF. Basically to mimic that difficulty here, one would have to run TT from start to finish on elite without a single person dying, and everyone would be needing to be an AT. FF negates the challenge.
That guide became obsolete when the difficult of every encounter in the lair was nerfed. Encounters in Champions have been nerfed dramatically, and TT has been duo'able for a long time now, before On Alert. The only reason to take a team into TT is because of the light puzzles.
It wasn't because people "learned" the instance, because that's furthest from the truth since veteran players I still have to explain how to work that bloody light puzzles, it is because the encounters are now trivial. A lot of their unique mechanics were removed, such as Dracul's bite he uses or his blood siphon ability. Black Fang barely uses his iron cyclone or stomp that pulls people in. Hell even Valerian Scarlet barely rates on the scary meter, and she's the least nerfed of all the encounters.
It's like with Shadow Destroyer. Shadow Destroyer use to be deadly, but he was nerfed long before On Alert. Blocking his shadow bolts was actually something you wanted to do, now people don't even bother because it's trivial damage. Even his Qliphoth phase was deadly, but now it's ignored because it's not even noticeable. All these mechanics have been trivialized so much for all the wrong reasons. Instead of people wanting to learn them, people just wanted them nerfed to be ignorable.
You can still solo TT, but the power that makes it possible remains a guarded secret to prevent it's nerfing. There's no real reason to other than for the sake of personal challenge.
On a seperate note:
Gentleman Crush.. I do think Inturrupts could come with a high amount of threat generation (not enough to take aggro from a good tank.. but enough so that if the player is not in Support or Ranged DPS role (threat reduction) nor using Congress of Selves (more threat reduction) and not also using Mind Wipe/Absolve (ultimate threat reduction) they will find themselves in a compromising position in a boss fight.
I have always maintained that crowd control should come with high threat generation (specifically in PvP). Its very much a "get them, they are dangerous" mechanic. I had created a sonic framework idea somewhere that also used interrupts but ran as a tank. The increase in threat was because of the crowd control (and knocks) that come with set.. the same principle should be applied to crowd control.
How about this, when you interrupt Gravitar, she screams "HOW DARE YOU?!?!" and then hits the interrupter with 30 force cascades of increasing damage in succession.
You can still solo TT, but the power that makes it possible remains a guarded secret to prevent it's nerfing. There's no real reason to other than for the sake of personal challenge.
This shows me two things. 1) the boss is not a bag of HP.. he is still very capable of damaging players in between use of inturrupts. and 2) there are other mechanics involved in keeping even single target players alive (such as the heal from Mental Leech).
I am supportive of non-shtick attacks being added to AI but this is not a problem with interrupts as a mechanic, but rather a good idea for future elite content.
I am not a fan of cherry picking. I could be convinced even to add a % chance (*33%?) to interrupt when used without manipulator. But for players who make the sacrifice of focusing on controller playstyle (namely manipulator) this should continue to work as currently designed (100% of the time).
I cannot see this in the video as you are facing a single tartet.. Also what looks like AoPM inflating your PRE stat. Not to mention any other +Heal modifiers that may exist on the build.
*33% chance chosen because there are 3 click interrupts to choose through.. Chop, Mental Leech, and Shadow of Doubt.
Interrupts are a bad idea in this game, because there will be things that shouldn't be interruptable due to gameplay needs. I.E. a boss power that was so terrifyingly terrible that they had three missions of prep for it, but then you don't even need the three pieces of the sacred Mcguffan. Then when those powers are cherry-picked for immunity all hell breaks loose.
Interrupts are, however, no better or worse than blocks. You say these attacks tell you to block or get out of the way, but what's the difference between seeing the attack an blocking, where it's supposed to negate the attack, and seeing the attack and interrupting, where it's supposed to negate the attack.
The answer is the interrupt helps the team, but that's what support does. Support isn't just buff/debuff; CC stands beneath that umbrella as well. If teamate A blocks and takes trivial damage, but teamate B doesn't and is in the red, if there's a healer, they get healed. The difference is if support is pre-emptive or reactive. There's also AoE heals, so both players could take the hit and be healed. Or it's a super big one that would kill, but it doesn't because support put up bubbles or AoPM or debuffed damage. A Tank can keep these attacks on them, allowing teamates to not fear the giant boom, but support can't do that?
Interrupts are bad, because like mechanics such as block, effects will have to plow through for the sake of gameplay. Instead of a "Fix" that will be ignored at some point out of neccessity it's better to just make a fix that works all the time.
This game isn't guild wars, it's not made for the interrupt mechanic. It will be bypassed in the future, then people will rage even more because the power that's supposed to work, doesn't.
I did some testing with interrupts vs mobs and players.
Findings:
Interrupts only lockout powers if they actually interrupt something.
Interrupts lockout the entire power tray and device tray if they interrupt something.
Block can be interrupted.
Interrupted mobs do nothing until the lockout is over.
A power needs to have some activation time to be interrupted. Obviously it's difficult to interrupt fast activating powers with no charge time, but it's possible. This even includes energy builders.
I was unable to interrupt DEMON non-schtick attacks, whether henchman, villain or master villain. I would assume this to be the case with most (if not all) other enemies in game. Though it's possible my timing just sucks.
The time powers are locked out from interrupts scale with hold strength. Conversely, mez protection lowers the amount of time powers are locked out from interrupts. 506 PRE + 8 manipulator stacks + PRE tree bonus to holds allowed for ~2-3 second lockouts from a single interrupt vs a low PRE player.
Conclusions (opinion):
Despite a couple surprises in my findings, my stance on interrupts affecting SV+ mobs is unchanged. I have no qualms with interrupts and other CC affecting SV+ enemies so long as there are systems in place which prevent abuse -or- every fight is redesigned/created to account for interrupts and CC.
Random bugs: Dependency does not proc Compassion stacks.
Selfless Ally (PRE SS spec) is healing roughly 10x the amount it should.
I did some testing with interrupts vs mobs and players.
Findings:
Interrupts only lockout powers if they actually interrupt something.
Interrupts lockout the entire power tray and device tray if they interrupt something.
Block can be interrupted.
Interrupted mobs do nothing until the lockout is over.
A power needs to have some activation time to be interrupted. Obviously it's difficult to interrupt fast activating powers with no charge time, but it's possible. This even includes energy builders.
I was unable to interrupt DEMON non-schtick attacks, whether henchman, villain or master villain. I would assume this to be the case with most (if not all) other enemies in game. Though it's possible my timing just sucks.
The time powers are locked out from interrupts scale with hold strength. Conversely, mez protection lowers the amount of time powers are locked out from interrupts. 506 PRE + 8 manipulator stacks + PRE tree bonus to holds allowed for ~2-3 second lockouts from a single interrupt vs a low PRE player.
Conclusions (opinion):
Despite a couple surprises in my findings, my stance on interrupts affecting SV+ mobs is unchanged. I have no qualms with interrupts and other CC affecting SV+ enemies so long as there are systems in place which prevent abuse -or- every fight is redesigned/created to account for interrupts and CC. Random bugs: Dependency does not proc Compassion stacks.
Selfless Ally (PRE SS spec) is healing roughly 10x the amount it should.
I was unaware that blocking can be interrupted this should be fixed ASAP.
Also I agree that that the AI should be updated to take into account CC and interrupt. Perhaps bosses could have the same amount of attacks but increase the damage of click ones?
I'm just throwing ideas around here, I'd like to see CC still be useful in high lvl content, but balanced but not nerfed so hard it becomes useless, which is the impression I get from some people. I know content needs to be challenging but also this playstyle needs to be brought back to life with some purpose. This would all be a waste of time if CC was brought back and it wouldnt affect bosses.
Aqia, brought up a good point about how interrupts could affect bosses by slowing down charges, even though I am open to this as it seems thematic enough (Slowing down mental processes to a point where percieved reality is slower) but I'd prefer if interrupts quickly nipped 2/3 charges in the bud and 1/3 were significantly slowed down.
I did some testing with interrupts vs mobs and players.
Findings:
Interrupts only lockout powers if they actually interrupt something.
Interrupts lockout the entire power tray and device tray if they interrupt something.
Block can be interrupted.
Interrupted mobs do nothing until the lockout is over.
A power needs to have some activation time to be interrupted. Obviously it's difficult to interrupt fast activating powers with no charge time, but it's possible. This even includes energy builders.
I was unable to interrupt DEMON non-schtick attacks, whether henchman, villain or master villain. I would assume this to be the case with most (if not all) other enemies in game. Though it's possible my timing just sucks.
The time powers are locked out from interrupts scale with hold strength. Conversely, mez protection lowers the amount of time powers are locked out from interrupts. 506 PRE + 8 manipulator stacks + PRE tree bonus to holds allowed for ~2-3 second lockouts from a single interrupt vs a low PRE player.
Conclusions (opinion):
Despite a couple surprises in my findings, my stance on interrupts affecting SV+ mobs is unchanged. I have no qualms with interrupts and other CC affecting SV+ enemies so long as there are systems in place which prevent abuse -or- every fight is redesigned/created to account for interrupts and CC.
Random bugs: Dependency does not proc Compassion stacks.
Selfless Ally (PRE SS spec) is healing roughly 10x the amount it should.
Thank you for all your testing. I'd like to come see the result of these.. I have not at all tried to use the inturrupt mechanic in PvP.. it sounds like instead of inturrupts they are acting as disables. Something I am not in full support of in the current hold system. But this is just a reactionary opinion. I want to test it and see the result.
Good bug finds.. I have been too selfish to check out most of the PRE playstyle with the new telepathy.
This shows me two things. 1) the boss is not a bag of HP.. he is still very capable of damaging players in between use of inturrupts. and 2) there are other mechanics involved in keeping even single target players alive (such as the heal from Mental Leech).
I am supportive of non-shtick attacks being added to AI but this is not a problem with interrupts as a mechanic, but rather a good idea for future elite content.
I am not a fan of cherry picking. I could be convinced even to add a % chance (*33%?) to interrupt when used without manipulator. But for players who make the sacrifice of focusing on controller playstyle (namely manipulator) this should continue to work as currently designed (100% of the time).
I cannot see this in the video as you are facing a single tartet.. Also what looks like AoPM inflating your PRE stat. Not to mention any other +Heal modifiers that may exist on the build.
*33% chance chosen because there are 3 click interrupts to choose through.. Chop, Mental Leech, and Shadow of Doubt.
Yes, that is a good idea, I was going to suggest putting a high limit on those telepathy powers so you had to have a significant amount of powers outside of set to access them or if you stick to telepathy they would be easily accessable but I am sure there are ways around that idea. However here is a really good example of a limitation, which can discourage cherry picking.
Telepaths getting the special treatment, oh! I'd never thought I'd see the day!
Perhaps then nerf CC for every other role apart from support and nerf it's affects like Gamehobo suggested if Manipulator is not used along side it. This will and should I believe separate cherry pickers from real controller builds.
Smoke Grenade rightly received a nerf to cosmics and perhaps a general nerf? I can't remember but I remember alot of Soldiers saying they were now useless. However it still doesnt proc stacks of Smoke nade resistance or something like perception debuff resistance. So it is still very functional.
Stealth and Perception need to flat out change. I've run through scenario after scenario trying to "fix" the current system.. Its just not possible. LOL
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The first inturrupt came with a percent chance to proc.. not percent chance to take effect.. that was Clobber. I felt that it worked well. Adding a Percent chance to take effect would prevent most cherry picking, but still allow players to take them without Manipulator.
This is asking Gentleman crush to create two versions of the power.. one when Congress of Selves, Support, Manipulator is not present, and another when it is present. Assuming this is something he can do (relatively quick.. i'm jonesing) then I am in full support of it.
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I'm biting my tongue until I see the PvP effect of these disables first hand.. anyone available to test?
The heal on mental storm may seem out of line because, it was perhaps designed with a full controller/telepath in mind.
Conviction can heal for higher numbers than 3k in some instances, however with the nerf or rather redesign of Imbue, this may no longer be possible.
I wouldnt say the crit healing was an issue, the issue on Mental Storm is that on enemies when detonated results in a large heal spike on enemies, so far I have gotten 11k on 10 stacks + detonation to enemies, something which presents a problem even in PvP.
The CC is potent yes, but it is not IMO on the bad side of potent, it's about as potent as DPS is against bosses or the blocking mechanic. Both of which are sound mechanics.
I have agreed to disagree with you on the validity of the inturrupt mechanic. Let the judges (devs) decide. . You've presented your case of why you think they shouldn't (one i feel that is based in bias). I've presented a rather strong case of why they should exist . I tried to make my case as logically and with well rounded arguments as possible. We simply have differing views. I am saying this with no personal vigor or animosity.
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To move to your next concern:
How many stacks of Leech were on the dino in that video? Its not sharp enough for me to see the specifics.
I think the heal is the right amount without the stacks (single heal) it is around the same as Slave mentality for my build. However when (if) a player gets 10 stacks of Dependancy the heals are much larger (and SHOULD be). But again the option of cherrypicking comes up. I agree with you there is an issue to be addressed. AGAIN I cannot see the numbers so I am taking your word for it as far as the combat log goes.
Possible solution:
Perhaps there should be one, refreshable heal (lets say 300 HPS as example*) and then stacks of Dependancy could provide a buff to that single heal (20% increased heal to Mental leech per stack up to 10) taking the final HPS to around 600 HPS. The idea here being one large heal every second that is buffed instead of 10 tiny heals.
*Numbers chosen are in reference to your example and not representative of real numbers but rather to show the mechanic of a 200% heal buff to the heal at 10 stacks.
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I knew I should have started game-breaking in my Telepathy Feedback thread.. I'll post these there now.
I'll try to test out some alternative "game breaking" cherry-picking of my own. But thanks for the video and your testing. I'll try to be sure Gentleman Crush sees both of the arguments (Mental Leech and Inturrupts)
Comments
How does your first sentence make any sense? "CC is underpowered because mobs are too easy". CC has been the target of nerfs since On Alert, mobs seem too easy because we have gotten more powerful in many respects. You cannot find a causal link between CC being underpowered and the difficulty rating (according to you) of CO mobs.
1) CC is underpowered because Some of the PvP Crowd Called Nerf on CC mainly due to ONE advantage on ONE CC power namely Manevolent Manifestation on Ego Storm.
2) Perhaps for your build but in general mobs are just that,mobs they arent meant to be excessively challenging then again strength in numbers, if you agro enough or enough are present they become quite potent actually.
If you clearly identify CC as a "weakest link style of gameplay" (assuming that is what you are refering to) then why are you telling me my belief in CC being Underpowered is false?
Don't blame the player base for everything, some to most things yes but not everything.
It really isnt a claim that we have gotten more powerful, it is a fact. With the influx of Specs, 3 slot gear and high rank mods not to mention 3 SS style, people have gotten more powerful.
The simple fact is CC has been nerfed. Hard. The intention of the Devs, one which I hope they carry to LIVE is that CC and Telepathy in particular is brought upto speed with the rest of the game styles.
Just because some high DPS builds can wipe out mobs doesnt mean everyone can wipe out mobs that easily.
I frankly feel that the new system is a great way to revitalize CC and Telepathy simultaneously. Why nerf bomb such an improvement, people argue with baseless claims that revitalizing CC will kill off all content. That biased arguement is "utter tosh" to put it lightly. Just because a number of people abused CC pre On Alert, doesnt mean this play style should stay dead. It was killed off and given "The Incapaciderps System". Which has laughable effects on players in PvP and next to Zero use in PvE.
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Trying to pretend that one isn't directly responsible for the other is like saying that spending more than you can afford isn't responsible for debt. It's obvious you are as biased as you claim Kai is, since you evidently ignore huge bits of what she actually posts.
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In that other hero MMO mobs buffed/debuffed/supported each other or had significant debuffs against players. These mobes were low in rank but had force multiplying buffs and debuffs making them dangerous if left alone. They needed to be spiked or CCed immediately or the whole fight could go south.
To be clear, i still think there's room for CC to affect high ranking mobs in some limited capacity.
PVP is starving without rewards
1. Please give us Daily PVP missions that reward Questionite.
2. Please give us an exchange rate between Acclaim and Recognition so that PVP has access to all "On Alert" PVE rewards.
Here's the problem with difficulty so far when people compare CoH to CO. CoH, mobs of higher level actually presented a challenge. A level 53 mob was a challenge to a level 50 player, even a geared one. Level 54s were exceptionally dangerous to level 50s. Here in CO, a level 60 mob barely presents a challenge to players. There is a decided issue with how power scale works, when mobs 20 levels over a character aren't all that dangerous.
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If you are put off by one paragraph, you may not fully grasp what I am trying to get across.
CC is a game mechanic, which is currently dead. Irregardless of the difficulty of CO mobs, I believe the initial worry was against bosses, not mobs. Bosses in CO are difficult enough to require CC. How do you know that Mob AI will not be updated once these CC changes are applied? I'm pretty sure mobs do more damage, its the fact that players can stack defenses, dodge and heals to make a successful combo to roflstomp mobs.
I'm not pretending at all. I wouldnt call myself biased no. I don't ask for nerfs to powers, unless they are actually OP. I do not advocate the nerfing of powers in general. Kai in some respects wishes to nerf CC or allow it to lie in the gutter because it may/ will not affect the build Kai runs. That is bias. I on the otherhand am a proponent of CC due to the simple fact it is dead.
Supporting a revitalization of a dying mechanic which themeatically is sound is not being biased.
As for ignoring huge bits please refer to your first paragraph, if this is true then you have also ignored a large bit of what I am saying.
I do fully (most of the time) read peoples responses and reply accordingly.
The reason why you think CC is not required I believe may be that you perhaps have never tried running a controller? Once you see it from another perspective it may alter your view significantly.
Again, I will stress we are/were talking about BOSS BATTLES not mobs and critters. The issue was of CC being applied and actually working (for once) on Bosses, which is a fantastic idea.
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You might want to reitterate this to the masses of melee players who got screwed over during this event. Hell, not even melee players any player who got Mega RoflStomped during the event.
If every player was killed instantly by the D Wave, would that be in your opinion a challenge?
Then what would prevent this happening over and over? Oh wait something called Crowd Control would.
It all depends on what type of class you play, FF healers I believe would have little trouble going through content, the same goes for some to most FFs and a few AT's, all being dedicated Tanks, DPSers(both melee and range) and Healers.
Controllers who are out there and yes they remarkably make do with what little they can do with current CC, do not find the same victory in such situations.
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This entire paragraph is false. Boss mobs do not present much more challenge than standard mobs. They just have more hit points. The only one to present even a remotely difficult challenge is Gravitar and only by virtue that she has easily avoidable, high damage attacks.
Yes, youa re biased. You believe that CC should be overpowered to suit your own biased need to feel that it should be worth something, making already trivial content even more trivial.
Yes, it is.
I ignored it because you gloss over facts, and you ignore the underlying issues and problems.
This can be proven false since you believe Kai even asked for a buff to tank role or even that tank role is fine. Again your personal bias overshadows.
I've ran a controller.
And you want to trivialize already trivial content more. I've already read your threads. You don't comprehend what Kai is typing or anyone else. You just want to overpower the abilities, instead Kai is telling you that she thinks that anyone being able to solo high end mobs is dumb, but you can't see that. And frankly, your understanding of balance is also paper thin, since what you want out of your CC would do just that anyways.
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I'm sorry people can't avoid widely telegraphed and easy to mitigate attacks. The people I've seen complain about I watched in the melee to begin with, like ones who fight on the same side as a person who is taking taking the full brunt of the conal AE attacks. And saying they got screwed. Wow you really don't understand the mechanics. If they did 1 damage they still got rewarded for their efforts and had the same chance as everyone to get the same reward. No one got screwed out of the fight except those that felt they should always get something for nothing.
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Ranged Tank - (Pistols, Earth, Power Armor, etc)
Melee Tank - (Might, Unarmed, Power, Laser Swords, etc)
Ranged DPS - (Temperature, Electricity, Infernal, etc)
Melee DPS - (Blades, etc)
Pet DPS - (Ebon Sorcer. etcy)
Pet Healer - (Radiant Sorcery, Gadgeteer, etc)
Stealth Spike - (Archer, Sniper, Night Warrior, etc)
Controller (Debuffer) - (Telepaths, Hex Sorcery, etc)
Healer (Buffer) - (Celestial, Telepaths, Sorcery, etc)
There are hybrids of ALL of the above. However, specializing in ONE of the playstyles above one stands out as EXTREMELY crappy compared to its counterparts of specialization. Almost all of these are viable play-styles in the upcoming champions playstyle. If you remove inturrupts you remove the ability to play a specialized controller debuffer.
There are admittedly two sides to the argument. I do not wish to invalidate those who prefer other playstyles.. but more importantly I do not wish to BE invalidated in my chosen play-style.
In a just system, one that is not biased, playing a controller would perform admirably against bosses just as the others can.
The reason why this is so hard to balance, is that the viability of interrupts and critter debuffs in general, is scaling the opposite way other play styles do.
When I play my dps I accept I will not oneshot a legendary, and be in danger of dying. If gravitar is an example of future gameplay tanks will not be able to protect everyone from being hit. Healers have more people to heal and rez in 10 player content. Pets die very fast with the massive aoe attacks.
All those play styles are less effective/important per player the more complicated and bigger and harder the fights are.
But a debuffer will be at its very best against a single strong target, and since that is what most people expect to be the hardest content in the game, there is a conflict.
This is why debuffs need to be less effective/work differently on legendaries then on the default minions, without that difference balancing the controller play style is impossible (at least while hard disables are in the game and expected).
Is it probable that it'll be done right? Probably not.
If I had to hazard to guess, cramming interrupts as is, haphazardly, into boss fights, is not going to go all that well. And if they nerfed a certain 'smoke' power on Gravitar, why introduce a similar trivializing factor now?
If the concept of CC on bosses is actually approached as a big ordeal, time spent to balance and test sensitively, I'd be all for it. If not, if it's 'here, lets enable this checkbox and see what happens!' then I strongly feel the Devs should just keep that in Pandora's Box until they are actually ready for what madness will come from it.
And yes, '99% of mobs, insta-gib with AoE with 0 problems' is part of the issue with non-boss fights. But in the reallyreallyultrafastdontstopnownownow playstyle of this game, which is only accelerating, this is only ever going to change so much.
Damn straight! Quoted for truth! Right on, you nailed it here. You couldn't be any more accurate with this bit if you tried.
Glad to see some people on the forums are still capable of using their brain. Once again, I have little that needs to really be added to this because I'm in total agreement.
...I just recently realized something really disturbing. We're all eating Sodapop3's "humble pie."
1) Disables are the lowest and worst form of crowd control. We are not talking about HOLDING bosses. Unlike proper holds they are not offer no debuffs through specializations nor any benefit to game-play except to inturrupt big bosses.
2) Being able to use disables does NOT turn enemies into "HP bags". It simply removes ONE mechanic out of boss fights.. the Schtick. And to USE the disable mechanic effectively the player will be HELLA squishy. SO much so that one Punch (not the schtick attack but the punch) from a mega-destroid was enough to kill my toon completely. Thankfully Congress of Selves now comes with lowered aggro to help this happen less often.
3) These powers are on a relatively LARGE cooldown. Using them in succession successfully requires an investment of not only power and advantage points.. but a rather large investment in a INT - a stat that offers no innate offense and no innate defense.
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EVEN with my 700 INT it was not possible to solo even ONE of the lvl 60 mega-destroids - BEFORE they had 2 destroids and BEFORE there were mobs that spawned. If you want to post a video soloing the destroids, i encourage you to try using interrupts. Its simply not going to happen due to the inturrupts alone.. ONLY WHEN SUPPORTING A TEAM does the mechanic even become REMOTELY possible - aka working as designed.
Your argument would be weak IF your assesment to turn enemies into punching bags were a correct assessment, but your argument is even WEAKER because that is simply NOT what happens.
Those two examples are not even close to being comparable.
"I built my character so that he is unlikely to die in PvE," is nowhere near to, "I built my character to render your opponents helpless and thereby prevent you from engaging in a fight."
The first quote references a player who has built his character in a fashion that causes it to fulfill his personal preferences in gameplay. The second quote references a player who built his character to impact another player's gameplay (up to and including preventing the other player from playing).
Very, very different.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
First thing is, at endgame level the attacks are easy to mitigate, because the level of mitigation we have available to us is overpowered. If mitigation were at the same level as CC, you could stack as much mitigation they'd allow, and you'd only prevent a trivial ammount of damage and die, or you'd have a moment of invincibility then it'd be gone and you'd die. Outside endgame level is a good example. The Mega-D attacks hit me, through block, for about 7k. That's about 2.5 times my health at that level (22 when I had no one to SK, or I was avoiding the level up bug), and I'd have no real hope to reach that level of health.
As for easily avoidable, the robots were larger than my field of view. Now there may have been a way to zoom out farther that I didn't notice, but neither the right thumbstick click (Controller) or the middle mouse button roll let me zoom far enough to see the indicators for both Mega-Ds. One I could avoid (using the target popup indicators) but the other one always rolled me, and even block spamming wouldn't have saved me.
The thing is this. Either everything needs to get dropped to useless levels, making everyone dependant on each other to do anything, or CC needs to come up to the level everything else. Yes, CC is dangerous to buff as it is mitigation and attack, rolled into one, but it can be done. Kaizerin is right to be nervious of the potential fubar from a CC review, but a buff is needed as this isn't and shouldn't be a trinity game. Interrupts are dangerous, and I don't expect them to last long as they tend to die quickly after being allowed. At least that's what the history was in the very beginning when I first tried CO, so it really is important to consider an alternative suggestion now.
CC and Tanks have the same role. Right now, however, only one is of any use. It also seems the game is tending to the Tank + Off tank + heal + DPS type of gameplay, and that would send me away quick. I'd play WoW if I wanted that, and have fewer bugs for the trouble. This game is far too versitile for that, it's strong in ways only CoH could beat it, and it would be a shotgun to the foot to try and build away from what this game actually has going for it.
Now I just have to mention the sillyness of the 1 damage same reward comment. They were screwed, the event wasn't well designed for non-tank melee. Some people like to play the game, even if it is just cutting enemies down like a lawnmower. Others like to play the game and have it challenging. I don't know of many people who think hitting an enemy once with the EB, then getting facerolled on the ground by the boot of a building sized robot, until someone else kills it, is any fun at all. Equal reward or not.
I could actually say the same about alot of other people.
If you think it is false you have misread it.
You clearly misunderstand my intentions then. I am not biased I support the idea, I don't think CC should be overpowered neither did I state anywhere I want to be, get your facts straight and stop trying to accuse me of things I never said. What is wrong with wanting CC to be worth something exactly? It is the same as anyone else's desire to buff a certain mechanic or power.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion so I will stress not only my opinion but also a fact. No it is not.
Such as? The fact that a certain playstyle will be revived? That for once controllers will have a niche and not get screwed over like melee players in Destroid Event? The only issues here are the fact that CCers will once again pose a threat in PvP and will also be useful in content. The problem really is your own problem, there is nothing wrong with the CC which is to be brought out. Any problem present is your own, do not attribute it to a game mechanic.
This is one cited example. I did say if you fully read it that I most of the time read all of peoples responses.
Was that a hero with one or two control attacks? Did you run it to lvl 40? Or was this controller toon of yours in existance before On Alert? I am inclined to believe it was before On Alert. If so you arent seeing the issue with CC. If not, I would like to know why you think a CC power introduction such as this is not necessary.
It's great to see that you read what I write. It is a shame to see that you for a large part do not understand. Admittedly before, I was extremely keen to overpower telepathy and force, my keeness came out of a desire to match up to other players builds and other powersets. Of course I understand what people type, I speak english and I can write it too. No need for personal attacks, but if you want to go down that road that's not very wise but we can go there. Right now, I want to see decent CC. What we have on LIVE is not decent CC, on the PTS, that is decent CC in my most favorite powerset, so a double whammy in my opinion.
Adding CC powers will not really enable people to solo end game content. Kai's video about tanking and blocking mechanic, in my eyes is just wow, I didnt think it was possible and I was proved wrong.
I never have asked for soloing endgame content CC. So don't act like, you know what I want because you have been wrong so far. Let me make it clear for future reference.
I want CC to be a useful part of CO, the current implementation of CC is dead. I support the revitalization of the CC mechanic. I also support allowing CC to be able to contribute to endgame content.
Note here I did not use the words content removing, making bosses my personal dummies, overpowered CC or nullifying the usefulness of other playstyles or the team function.
A good example of this is when Mega D's attacked whilst Telepathy powers were still on PTS. I dont recall my controller build being able to solo Mega D because I used interrupts, I don't recall stopping it from functioning or attacking for more than 2 seconds. I dont recall every other player giving up on the Mega D simply because I used CC.
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the /camdist command can set your camera distance back so that you have a better view of a large opponent while in melee with them.
Been a while since Ive used it so please, any of you who remember the details, post.
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Part of the misunderstanding on this matter might be the fact that supporting one position (buff CC in this case) over another position (dont buff CC) is a definition of bias.
Yes you are biased. So is Silverspar. You both have opinions that contradict an alternative opinion. That is bias.
Pretty much everyone expressing an opinion here is demonstrating a bias. That is normal an acceptable.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
1) Interrupts are not over powered. This is the case most contested
also 2) There is a huge disparity and injustice between all other playstyles and the controller playstyle. Without inturrupts there is no possible benefit to the controller playstyle in a boss fight. THIS is the injustice.
then 3) The player-base has a history of bias against controllers.
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I can see both sides of the argument for Case 1..
But those of you saying that Case 2 and Case 3 are non-existant are missing the entirety of the debate in my honest opinion
* Case 3 begins in the third portion of the post "To a larger point:"
I didn't misread it. If you believe boss mobs are not trivial in the game then don't know what to tell you since a large complaint that has been around for a long time is how trivial they are.
There's nothing to get straight. You want CCs to shut down bosses like minions. If you don't think that will make already trivial content even more trivial then you do miss the point. There is no fact to get straight on that matter.
You can say it's not till you are blue in the face, but you still keep missing the point and wish to continue to ignore it despite it's been carefully explained to you multiple times.
It won't revive the playstyle anymore than buffing heals will revive healers in this game. People will still choose damage over holds because damage is more useful. Making holds powerful enough to shut down bosses just makes the game even easier, trivializes the content more and just removes more needs for teams. It isn't a playstyle argument, it's just a fact you refuse to see.
Except seeing your responses in this thread, you blatantly didn't.
I have a controller toon now, I rarely use the control because, guess what, its' better to do damage. Just like it was back before On Alert. Trying to claim controls were some how mystically better when they weren't.
There's nothing to misunderstand. People have tried to explain why, and you refuse to understand.
I'm sorry, but this has been possible for a very long time. On Alert didn't enable this. People have been soloing content in this game for a while. They've used a variety of builds, not just tank builds.
If you want your CCs to affect bosses then you want it to affect endgame contnet. And for it to be useful in the long run, then mobs will have to be tougher. Again, the part you refuse to listen to.
Just because you couldn't doesn't mean it wouldn't happen. Doing this would be just like smoke grenade, making a fight pointless for anyone beyond belief. And believing that in any fashion that a controller based build couldn't lock a mob down for more than 2 seconds at a time while piling on the DPS seems to be extremely pessimistic on what players have done in the past in this game. Example of how battles were made trivial, when Shadow's Embrace advantage use to affect cosmics, all people would do was spam that to constantly keep the cosmic bounced around the area. The cosmic was incapable of attacking thus making it an easy kill.
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I would disagree that "my desired" CC play style would destroy everyone elses, most people when it comes to bosses, yes they want a challenge but they also want a reward at the end for their efforts. I am not ignorant to the fact that some things still need to be tweaked, that is the whole point of PTS is it not? I'm not the only one who wants CC to be a valid part of CO. If I was I'd count myself extremely lucky to be so important that Devs decide not only to buff my favorite powerset but also a dead mechanic.
Giving Interrupts stacks of resistance is not thoughtfulness it is just not very practical in terms of it then makes it lie down next to the old holds system. I can appreciate useful suggestions which don't nerf new components too hard unless they are needed. In this case the only things which need to be thought about is the AI it is meant to effect and how they will be effected. The bottom line for me is I want CC to be a useful part of this game, allowing players to invest in it and not get screwed over. You don't see any other mechanic which is nerfed so greatly it has no effect against bosses? Why should CC only work where plain damage would just slice though it like a knife though butter?
Charged CC is good in certain situations, I am not disputing that CC can be useful in some situations by no means am I doing so. I just want CC to be better and on par with other mechanics and play styles such as DPS
It's funny how me talking about what actually happened to people even who flew too close to mega d or who were low on hp and didnt have time to react to Gravitar's bubble or whatever the scenario is you seem to project it onto me.
So doing one damage should allow you a reward? Whereas getting second on the leaderboard should provide you with crummy green gear? Anyway thats old news.
If you think no one got screwed you should really speak to seasoned FF players who's builds did get trashed even through block and those poor Melee AT's and FFs who for some strange reason cant survive 17k through block.
I wouldnt say being low on HP and blocking will save you from Gravitar's Yellow bubble. I've tried..doesnt work. Maybe it's because I was using a behemoth with rank 3 block and unbreakable up and with 4k hp left.
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Yes, because running out of Gravitar's bubble is hard? You aren't suppose to stand there and take a yellow bubble you are suppose to avoid it. The high damage should point that fact out, and it's easy to know when a yellow bubble is coming, so you can't sit there and say it's random. It isn't. It always follows her hold in her last third of health. It's not a matter that I can survive it's it is a matter I get out of it before it goes off.
Seriously, people want more complicated mechanics when they can't handle a simple one like that? And don't say that more complicated but less damaging. Because if it was less damaging then people would just ignore it and not even bother with complicated mechanics. Examples: Dr. D's factory with the molten led pots, Ripper in VIPER's Nest with the using of the key to break the Dreysha canisers, and Dr. Demoguard, taking out the scientists to keep them from summoning more raptors. Therakiel and using the light on people when they get held, Using stakes on Valid Dracul to keep him from healing, or the fact people complain that Shadow Destroyer's bubble in resistance is too tough, when that's the point and you use the shadow spheres to break it.
And mega D's have the same telegraph as they've had since launch when it comes to their mega attack. They squat with big electrical sparks coming off them.
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Actually rather than putting words in peoples mouths I assume things or highlight things, things which people respond to accordingly.
Well, I personally feel that they are ok. Some players feel they need a buff to be more challenging others do not.
*sigh* Again more accusations. Interrupting a boss does not shut it down. I don't think I can say this is a more simplistic fashion. Interrupting minions do not shut them down. The only point I fail to understand is why you think CC will kill content. It doesnt on PTS so why should it magically do so on LIVE?
I think it will, and I think some people frankly don't want it revived. Of course it won't revive the healing support playstyle anymore than it does because...healing mechanic isnt 95% dead, you don't get screwed over if you invest in a full healer build as much as you would to make a decent crowd controller build. Holds don't last an eternity and hold resist stacks still exist. Holds are extremely delicate, the slightlest damage can now break them instantly. Making CC work on end game bosses is not really and issue, I mean who would be able to hold Gravitar for an entire rampage alert without some negative side effect? Likely even if CC does start to work on End game content, unlike DPS it would be auto trivialized, bosses at cosmic or higher level could gain 2 stacks of hold resist per single hold or have longer durations of Hold Resist stacks, something will likely be implemented to stop abuse of holds working on bosses.
Then it's a wonder that I've been able to randomly convey how I feel about each point which I haven't read.
Why cant this fact be altered so that using CC is just as fun, as potent and as useful as damage? Try out maintained holds, you'll see the incapaciderp system was a huge nerf to crowd control, so it wasnt mystically better before On Alert. I remember testing Ego Storm before On Alert and after the update. There was a significant difference, so I'd say such a difference made CC better before On Alert.
I don't appreciate people insulting me for no reason, Please stop. I have reitterated this point to you before. I do understand, I just have an opinion. Just like you understand what you see from me on your screen and reply with your own opinion
Ok.
Since you have read "all my replies", you should be familiar with the one where I back the decision to update AI to take into account new CC developments. And it's not "my CC" I don't own it lol. But the fact that you say this makes me see that already you view this play style as a waste of time and useless. The whole point of making new CC powers was to counter this view of CC.
Are you telling me if the Mega D event was magically up again in late October and the New Telepathy CC and damage Powers were released alongside it, the minute someone saw 3 telepaths with the new powers would abandon a potentially large amount of G and resources and points and just act like: "Oh look telepaths with CC powers, obviously they can tank, put out high damage and provide significant heals to finish off 2 4million Destroids, lets leave them and move on."
I am not talking about what used to be done, I am talking about the here and now and the future of CC really. Perhaps that's why some are so reluctant to allow these powers to go through, because of past "OP" CC.
No one complains when damage output is increased, no one complains when healing is increased, but when CC is being increased and made useful everyone complains. I get the fact that it needs to be balanced, but I specifically want to be able to go into a boss battle and think right I can do something here rather than sitting redundantly passively and actively healing people and locking down an opponent for a short spell before a stray bullet awakens them. You may view this as a failure on my part, but to be honest, investing in CC should not be a snorefest, nor should it be easily avoidable, nor should I be punished for doing so. Some people like to build thematically, not all players build to win or whisk through content.
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Sadly my thinking and general gameplay with my behemoth isnt as well as it should be, when playing as my behemoth I take things slowly and usually stand around and punch rather than try very badly at being nimble. This is by no means your problem, I'm just saying. Usually I am the centre mark for the bubble, the situation I was refering too was the case where her targetting reticule was on me. So running around when I am conscious that other people apart from me will die if I try to run, would make the possibility of me killing of a healer or DPSer more real.
I really didnt say her bubble was random. However who she picks for it is a bit random IMO.
I did try several times to get this right whilst in melee mode with my master and failed. With all the tempests applying negative ions, sadly I wasnt able to see whether it had Negative Ions and was using eye laser or was powering up D Wave, I suspect melee builds might have had a similar problem which is why there was so much complaint.
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Don't generalise my example of myself and a few other people to everyone, clearly you and I'd imagine a considerable amount of people can handle simple mechanics against the odds.
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All in all I ended up with the voodoo feather shoulders unlock as the only worthwhile reward out of the whole run.
*Here's to the death of meaningful content.*
Snark never dies.
Of course there are also the elitists who think everyone plays like a noob and seem to be satisfied that there should only be one way of game play. Theirs.
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And you lost 2 hope points
You learnt the mechanics and hence it is trivial. Can I ask did you block his sword spin? Or did your healer bubble you through it? Or perhaps you have enough HP and gear to stand through it and still have some left so that you can pop resurgence or conviction or your healer can iniquity you?
The old bosses are much easier to do now simply because HP, damage and defenses are higher (forms, specs, gear) that is without a doubt. Can we raise the bosses damage, HP and defenses? Certainly and we should, but should we not scale it to what the players have gained?
This argument is silly because they were trivial before On Alert. They only became more so after On Alert. People were duoing or soloing lair bosses for a long time now.
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In comparison to what though? Other MMOs?
In comparison to much of the game's content, TT is probably still up there and was before On Alert. I mean, it warranted a guide at one time (as I know you're aware, hee hee). No one has any use for a guide on how to roflstomp Black Fang in Dockside Dustup.
There is a gradient of overall difficulty, it isn't 'everything less than this equals 0', not to most players/builds. To The Optimal Primes, yes.
And wasn't wesley calling for an increase of difficulty? Why is that silly?
Ultimately people avoid TT not due to it being trivial, but because rewards in combination with time spent do not make it worth it. And if it did, it'd probably be farmed like Nemcon...
I wasn't thinking about the easy stuff. I was thinking along the lines of master of statesman's task force, which was the hardest badge to acquire at the time, and still harder than anything that has been offered in CO.
It's one thing for the tougher folks to survive, it's another to have all 5 avoid a single death across an entire task force while actually having squishy dps that doesn't self heal
Even CC wasn't required there. Many people got that without a controller or dominator and without a stone tanker either. Perma sleeping them made it way easier, but it also removed any challenge from the ending which was suppose to be challenging. In short it turned an award for doing something in a way that few would conceive of into a trivial thing.
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That guide became obsolete when the difficult of every encounter in the lair was nerfed. Encounters in Champions have been nerfed dramatically, and TT has been duo'able for a long time now, before On Alert. The only reason to take a team into TT is because of the light puzzles.
It wasn't because people "learned" the instance, because that's furthest from the truth since veteran players I still have to explain how to work that bloody light puzzles, it is because the encounters are now trivial. A lot of their unique mechanics were removed, such as Dracul's bite he uses or his blood siphon ability. Black Fang barely uses his iron cyclone or stomp that pulls people in. Hell even Valerian Scarlet barely rates on the scary meter, and she's the least nerfed of all the encounters.
It's like with Shadow Destroyer. Shadow Destroyer use to be deadly, but he was nerfed long before On Alert. Blocking his shadow bolts was actually something you wanted to do, now people don't even bother because it's trivial damage. Even his Qliphoth phase was deadly, but now it's ignored because it's not even noticeable. All these mechanics have been trivialized so much for all the wrong reasons. Instead of people wanting to learn them, people just wanted them nerfed to be ignorable.
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Well, all the more reason to bump the rewards and the difficulty again, but I guess with it not being 'new', fat chance.
No, I get she wants a challenge - I don't mind that, it's pretty apparent she's fearful of anything that may make things easier. My point was that there's nothing particularly difficult in CO to begin with.
I can solo an elite level 40 Mega-Destroid Terminator with an AT (really anything). It's a complete waste of time other than being able to say you've done it. To beat something that basically "cheats" the mechanics, you have to use the mechanics to your own advantage. I currently only know of one method that works, as anything else would just result in you dying.
Being able to interrupt cosmics and legendaries doesn't suddenly change the dynamic. A solo player or team that could beat Teliosaur would do it without relying on the interrupt to begin with. Darn thing still hurts regardless of the big chargeup shtick powers. Interrupting said attacks just makes the beast more manageable. Hell, something as weak as Mega-Terak can one shot most of my ATs just by being in range, yet if I actually want to beat him I simply use my knowledge of working game mechanics to make it effortless. When a single hit is enough to kill, preventing damage is pretty important. When preventing damage draws the line between success and failure, preventing said damage doesn't trivialize the content - it's simply making it possible.
Personal Note:
This, at its core, is what I'm fighting against. I am a numbers cruncher (by trade even) but just because I know there are godmode builds available to me, I still choose to play the game my way.
I play a controller.. which (until these interrupt powers) has meant sitting back and doing nothing in boss fights. I have seen amazing tanks. I've been 1 shot by DPS users. I've seen stealth players pop up and gank a boss in one hit. I've been buffed to crazyness with Support Biffers, I've seen petmasters melt down even Grond.. All while I can do nothing but watch.
I am PERSONALLY looking forward to feeling like a badass just as the other mechanics have. Even if my badassery comes with NO recognition to Open Mission ranks.
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On a seperate note:
Gentleman Crush.. I do think Inturrupts could come with a high amount of threat generation (not enough to take aggro from a good tank.. but enough so that if the player is not in Support or Ranged DPS role (threat reduction) nor using Congress of Selves (more threat reduction) and not also using Mind Wipe/Absolve (ultimate threat reduction) they will find themselves in a compromising position in a boss fight.
I have always maintained that crowd control should come with high threat generation (specifically in PvP). Its very much a "get them, they are dangerous" mechanic. I had created a sonic framework idea somewhere that also used interrupts but ran as a tank. The increase in threat was because of the crowd control (and knocks) that come with set.. the same principle should be applied to crowd control.
Perma sleep = CC. I got through it with a flame tank covering me. The challenge wasn't so much the content as finding 5 capable players able to invest the time to get through it. I had to watch my threat gen as a blaster, and avoid taking hits as all it would take was one big one to finish me off. The challenge was having 5 players that could fill opposing roles and avoid a single defeat by any throughout an entire TF. Basically to mimic that difficulty here, one would have to run TT from start to finish on elite without a single person dying, and everyone would be needing to be an AT. FF negates the challenge.
You can still solo TT, but the power that makes it possible remains a guarded secret to prevent it's nerfing. There's no real reason to other than for the sake of personal challenge.
How about this, when you interrupt Gravitar, she screams "HOW DARE YOU?!?!" and then hits the interrupter with 30 force cascades of increasing damage in succession.
"DO. *BLAST BLAST BLAST* NOT. *BLAST BLAST BLAST* INTERRUPT. *BLAST BLAST BLAST BLAST* ME! *BLASTX20"
I seriously doubt it's that big of a secret.
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This shows me two things. 1) the boss is not a bag of HP.. he is still very capable of damaging players in between use of inturrupts. and 2) there are other mechanics involved in keeping even single target players alive (such as the heal from Mental Leech).
I am supportive of non-shtick attacks being added to AI but this is not a problem with interrupts as a mechanic, but rather a good idea for future elite content.
I am not a fan of cherry picking. I could be convinced even to add a % chance (*33%?) to interrupt when used without manipulator. But for players who make the sacrifice of focusing on controller playstyle (namely manipulator) this should continue to work as currently designed (100% of the time).
I cannot see this in the video as you are facing a single tartet.. Also what looks like AoPM inflating your PRE stat. Not to mention any other +Heal modifiers that may exist on the build.
*33% chance chosen because there are 3 click interrupts to choose through.. Chop, Mental Leech, and Shadow of Doubt.
Interrupts are a bad idea in this game, because there will be things that shouldn't be interruptable due to gameplay needs. I.E. a boss power that was so terrifyingly terrible that they had three missions of prep for it, but then you don't even need the three pieces of the sacred Mcguffan. Then when those powers are cherry-picked for immunity all hell breaks loose.
Interrupts are, however, no better or worse than blocks. You say these attacks tell you to block or get out of the way, but what's the difference between seeing the attack an blocking, where it's supposed to negate the attack, and seeing the attack and interrupting, where it's supposed to negate the attack.
The answer is the interrupt helps the team, but that's what support does. Support isn't just buff/debuff; CC stands beneath that umbrella as well. If teamate A blocks and takes trivial damage, but teamate B doesn't and is in the red, if there's a healer, they get healed. The difference is if support is pre-emptive or reactive. There's also AoE heals, so both players could take the hit and be healed. Or it's a super big one that would kill, but it doesn't because support put up bubbles or AoPM or debuffed damage. A Tank can keep these attacks on them, allowing teamates to not fear the giant boom, but support can't do that?
Interrupts are bad, because like mechanics such as block, effects will have to plow through for the sake of gameplay. Instead of a "Fix" that will be ignored at some point out of neccessity it's better to just make a fix that works all the time.
This game isn't guild wars, it's not made for the interrupt mechanic. It will be bypassed in the future, then people will rage even more because the power that's supposed to work, doesn't.
Findings:
Interrupts only lockout powers if they actually interrupt something.
Interrupts lockout the entire power tray and device tray if they interrupt something.
Block can be interrupted.
Interrupted mobs do nothing until the lockout is over.
A power needs to have some activation time to be interrupted. Obviously it's difficult to interrupt fast activating powers with no charge time, but it's possible. This even includes energy builders.
I was unable to interrupt DEMON non-schtick attacks, whether henchman, villain or master villain. I would assume this to be the case with most (if not all) other enemies in game. Though it's possible my timing just sucks.
The time powers are locked out from interrupts scale with hold strength. Conversely, mez protection lowers the amount of time powers are locked out from interrupts. 506 PRE + 8 manipulator stacks + PRE tree bonus to holds allowed for ~2-3 second lockouts from a single interrupt vs a low PRE player.
Conclusions (opinion):
Despite a couple surprises in my findings, my stance on interrupts affecting SV+ mobs is unchanged. I have no qualms with interrupts and other CC affecting SV+ enemies so long as there are systems in place which prevent abuse -or- every fight is redesigned/created to account for interrupts and CC.
Random bugs:
Dependency does not proc Compassion stacks.
Selfless Ally (PRE SS spec) is healing roughly 10x the amount it should.
I was unaware that blocking can be interrupted this should be fixed ASAP.
Also I agree that that the AI should be updated to take into account CC and interrupt. Perhaps bosses could have the same amount of attacks but increase the damage of click ones?
I'm just throwing ideas around here, I'd like to see CC still be useful in high lvl content, but balanced but not nerfed so hard it becomes useless, which is the impression I get from some people. I know content needs to be challenging but also this playstyle needs to be brought back to life with some purpose. This would all be a waste of time if CC was brought back and it wouldnt affect bosses.
Aqia, brought up a good point about how interrupts could affect bosses by slowing down charges, even though I am open to this as it seems thematic enough (Slowing down mental processes to a point where percieved reality is slower) but I'd prefer if interrupts quickly nipped 2/3 charges in the bud and 1/3 were significantly slowed down.
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Thank you for all your testing. I'd like to come see the result of these.. I have not at all tried to use the inturrupt mechanic in PvP.. it sounds like instead of inturrupts they are acting as disables. Something I am not in full support of in the current hold system. But this is just a reactionary opinion. I want to test it and see the result.
Good bug finds.. I have been too selfish to check out most of the PRE playstyle with the new telepathy.
Yes, that is a good idea, I was going to suggest putting a high limit on those telepathy powers so you had to have a significant amount of powers outside of set to access them or if you stick to telepathy they would be easily accessable but I am sure there are ways around that idea. However here is a really good example of a limitation, which can discourage cherry picking.
Telepaths getting the special treatment, oh! I'd never thought I'd see the day!
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Perhaps then nerf CC for every other role apart from support and nerf it's affects like Gamehobo suggested if Manipulator is not used along side it. This will and should I believe separate cherry pickers from real controller builds.
Smoke Grenade rightly received a nerf to cosmics and perhaps a general nerf? I can't remember but I remember alot of Soldiers saying they were now useless. However it still doesnt proc stacks of Smoke nade resistance or something like perception debuff resistance. So it is still very functional.
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The first inturrupt came with a percent chance to proc.. not percent chance to take effect.. that was Clobber. I felt that it worked well. Adding a Percent chance to take effect would prevent most cherry picking, but still allow players to take them without Manipulator.
This is asking Gentleman crush to create two versions of the power.. one when Congress of Selves, Support, Manipulator is not present, and another when it is present. Assuming this is something he can do (relatively quick.. i'm jonesing) then I am in full support of it.
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I'm biting my tongue until I see the PvP effect of these disables first hand.. anyone available to test?
The heal on mental storm may seem out of line because, it was perhaps designed with a full controller/telepath in mind.
Conviction can heal for higher numbers than 3k in some instances, however with the nerf or rather redesign of Imbue, this may no longer be possible.
I wouldnt say the crit healing was an issue, the issue on Mental Storm is that on enemies when detonated results in a large heal spike on enemies, so far I have gotten 11k on 10 stacks + detonation to enemies, something which presents a problem even in PvP.
The CC is potent yes, but it is not IMO on the bad side of potent, it's about as potent as DPS is against bosses or the blocking mechanic. Both of which are sound mechanics.
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To move to your next concern:
How many stacks of Leech were on the dino in that video? Its not sharp enough for me to see the specifics.
I think the heal is the right amount without the stacks (single heal) it is around the same as Slave mentality for my build. However when (if) a player gets 10 stacks of Dependancy the heals are much larger (and SHOULD be). But again the option of cherrypicking comes up. I agree with you there is an issue to be addressed. AGAIN I cannot see the numbers so I am taking your word for it as far as the combat log goes.
Possible solution:
Perhaps there should be one, refreshable heal (lets say 300 HPS as example*) and then stacks of Dependancy could provide a buff to that single heal (20% increased heal to Mental leech per stack up to 10) taking the final HPS to around 600 HPS. The idea here being one large heal every second that is buffed instead of 10 tiny heals.
*Numbers chosen are in reference to your example and not representative of real numbers but rather to show the mechanic of a 200% heal buff to the heal at 10 stacks.
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I knew I should have started game-breaking in my Telepathy Feedback thread.. I'll post these there now.
I'll try to test out some alternative "game breaking" cherry-picking of my own. But thanks for the video and your testing. I'll try to be sure Gentleman Crush sees both of the arguments (Mental Leech and Inturrupts)