I mean really, what the heck is going on? Watching duels or playing in Alerts, i see no original toons what-so-ever! All i see is AOPM with geyser insert random long range heavy hitter(Ebon ruin, Cascade, Defile, etc) What's wrong with making a concept toon? Is it not cool enough to try and win or compete with something that the other lemmings don't/won't use?
I don't get it. To top it off, these clones act as if they're god's gift to PVP !
As if i would ever be proud of using a carbon copy of the next guy, who is just a carbon copy
of the last guy, who's just a....you get the point.
PvP was a lot more fun to watch and play a year ago imo. Just a lot more variety in builds.
And no, i dont get owned or cry when i pvp against the many AOPM drones.
But, since the patch pretty much ruined my Brick toon, i have been watching a lot more.
And AOPM is the 1# passive i see out there. And that's a fact jack. Now, i'm not the one to throw the nerf bat around lightly, but...either do something about Geysers 100ft travel remover or scale back a bit on the numbers you can get with AOPM. Maybe a cool down on Geyser at the very least. Bring back some strategy and skill to slowing down the other guy instead of an auto-remover from a far with no penalty.
haha
I like Aura a lot, but all my builds are original. You'll never see me copy everything down to the energy builder. xD I don't use aura on every build either. I'm from the old school. :P The patch ruined a lot of people's toons. You'll just have to adapt and alter your characters a little bit so that they stay true to what they were meant to be.
I like Aura a lot, but all my builds are original. You'll never see me copy everything down to the energy builder. xD I don't use aura on every build either. I'm from the old school. :P The patch ruined a lot of people's toons. You'll just have to adapt and alter your characters a little bit so that they stay true to what they were meant to be.
^^^This. I do now. I am also old school. I don't use AOPM but on one build. And that build is a "pure" magic based toon (Support) And yes my main was jacked by the last big patch as well...And as far as fotm builds go, a few years back was indeed a great time to pvp. Cryptic didn't destroy hero games then, and everything wasn't nerfed into the ground.
You saw some really cool builds and a lot more variety to be sure.
But that was then. Now is, well...you know...attack of the clones!
You need to check yourself with that "COPY" mentality. Certain powers have long been established to be common place in FF pvp, on alert changes really just narrowed a few.
Yup. Copying it self isn't so problem. Cause you can learn many thing from other ppls build. But we also have to learn how to use and what can do. Have to remind Ideology? concept? I dn't know suitably word.
I myself had to copy & arrange Wes's build to fix my "Dodge-Healer" concept cause LR was terribly nurfed.
Someone in Youtube seems doesn't like my jumpy-jump dodge healer and seems like net drama isn't still over for him.
I'm always welcome for net stalker but he never comes to forums or in PvP. xD
You need to check yourself with that "COPY" mentality. Certain powers have long been established to be common place in FF pvp, on alert changes really just narrowed a few.
Agreed. 100% true. This is why they need to standardize their spreadsheets.
There is only one power that hits 5 targets up to 100 ft as hard as it does with knockback.. and it's line of sight not even PBAoE.
It's clear to me that the devs are to blame not the players. If you're serious about PvP you pick what works.
I only wish I could avoid all the builds that are "serious about PvP" and play pvp with people who are "serious about their character concept". Without the ability to blacklist PvPers I dont want to play with I simply will not enjoy PvP.
And then... well, not sure how good of an idea was the ability to stack crit chance or crit sev without much DEX and no EGO at all, making it mainstream and totally annihilating the raw damage's benefits. And giving more options for more absurd stats to raise.
Hmm, Im beginning to detect some nostalgic grandpa syndrome. Everything was better back in the olden days. There were not FotM bulds. Tons of build variety in every match. Etc.
Remember when every PVP map was filled to the brim with WTK spammers ?
Or how about every other build designed around STC ?
Or Laser Sword former debuff glory.?
Or Catalyst gear fueled PA spike ?
or everyone's favorite Qular pistol.
God, I remember a BASH match where Nesno, loaded for bear with Laser Sword, STC, and Chainsaw, chased at least 8 other players around the map slaughtering them at will. They ran and screamed like sorority girls in a slasher flick while he farmed the hell out of them. Shortly thereafter you started seeing "LoLsaw" builds by the dozen.
There has ALWAYS been a focus on a relatively small (as a percentage of total options) number of particularly effective builds in CO PvP. It may have been refined down a bit further, but its nothing new. This is evolution.
This is not necessarily even a matter of copycatting. Sure much of it will be, but anyone with serious PvP inclinations is going to look at the power/advantage lists and recognize that being able to remove a TP from further away is better than not being able to do so.
All of that said, it would be nice to see things balanced in such a fashion that the number of "PvP good" options increased. As it stands now...Do the evolution baby.
Don't you worry. Once you can last long enough, you can see for yourself how shallow and repetitive HERO games has become.
At least we had variety at some point, and rewards to work towards to overcome weaknesses. Now it's "either you are one of the few, highly specific builds or you're not going to make a single drop of Acclaim in the only map the community plays(BASH)" and "Your Acclaim buys you virtually nothing."
It wouldn't be fair to point the finger at the community. It's not their fault. You're supposed to be an *******, or expect to meet them, in PvP.
It falls upon the devs to make compelling rewards, and to maintain balance. After all, a jerk in PvP isn't so bad if they can die.
PVP is competetive gamemode. I'm pretty sure originality and pride in owning an original themed build goes out the window when you can have a FOTM build template used by many that has the best potential to squash the competition, or at least level the playing field. You don't get special points, perks or any real recognition for being original with your build. At the end of the day it's the winning that counts isn't it?
You might as well call PVP'ers from other games like Guild Wars and Rift using a standard, popular build template to bring their A-game as being "lemmings" and "copycats", then have them laugh in your face when your "original" build gets squashed by them. I'm pretty sure any rage accusations against someone who has a copycat build in this game will be met with responses of "umadbro?" and "Whatever, I just pwned you.".
Hmm, Im beginning to detect some nostalgic grandpa syndrome. Everything was better back in the olden days. There were not FotM bulds. Tons of build variety in every match. Etc.
I will always remember the days where "everybody" (not really everybody so you don't
need to correct me) was an Uppercut spammer with Laserknight and Teleport. That was
at least how it sounded in the forums at the time i started playing CO.
Ahh .. all these Upperclones that days .. *nostalgic sigh* :cool:
Don't you worry. Once you can last long enough, you can see for yourself how shallow and repetitive HERO games has become.
At least we had variety at some point...
Pre-Alert I ran an electric sniper, and made plenty of folks in ZA angry with sudden death from above.
But she had gaping weaknesses but was still viable against many opponents as there was plenty of variety then, as the rewards were an incentive for getting people into the games that would never pvp otherwise.
There's far fewer newcomers, and most of them aren't true pvpers. True pvpers will take the worst beatings and still come back for more, learning from each experience.
Most players new to pvp come in, get torn apart, and never look back as there's no reward, and the experience was anything but fun.
True pvpers will take the worst beatings and still come back for more, learning from each experience.
Karm.. I mean Kontrol reporting for PvP. Did someone call me..?
- -
Honestly my build has not and will not change with the tides. I was once the most feared "invisible confuser" that loved watching spammers not even realize they were blasting their own teammates. Became hated and hunted like none other.. and good ole Aura of Arcane Clarity boosting my HP/Mitigation 0% with 4500 HP.. There was nothing better.
I remember "Farm-a-Karma" Bash Matches where I had to run and hide in construction zones using my CC to gain distance.. since I dont fly or teleport it was quite the fun meta game.. Spider Lairing people in the stairs as I tried to CC all my aggressors as they farm me for the win. I didn't complain about losing (with no possibility to win) because it was FUN. It stopped being fun when they took my precious CC from me completely and people became ***holes about it. Now I just like to go in and spam confuses on players because I love watching how useless a once fun build can become.
Crash Bandicoot made an entire franchise of "How many ways can I die".. players don't mind losing.. they do mind being completely outmatched without the chance for victory.
PVP is competetive gamemode. I'm pretty sure originality and pride in owning an original themed build goes out the window when you can have a FOTM build template used by many that has the best potential to squash the competition, or at least level the playing field. You don't get special points, perks or any real recognition for being original with your build. At the end of the day it's the winning that counts isn't it?
You might as well call PVP'ers from other games like Guild Wars and Rift using a standard, popular build template to bring their A-game as being "lemmings" and "copycats", then have them laugh in your face when your "original" build gets squashed by them. I'm pretty sure any rage accusations against someone who has a copycat build in this game will be met with responses of "umadbro?" and "Whatever, I just pwned you.".
Wow.
I guess for some, grade school will never die. But really, people saying"umadbro" or "i just pwned you" using a fotm build or any build for that matter is most likley 12 or under and not to be taken in a serious matter anyway. That noise kinda takes care of it's self in my book.
Even those "Lemming" and "Copy Cat" builds lose now and then. And when i beat them i say gg. When i lose i say gg. To me, you don't get anything from being unoriginal. No pride from hitching a ride on the fotm express.
No respect. No merrits from being another drone. And what do you win? The person you beat was a clone! Did you beat yourself? I guess skill would come into place with two evenly matched builds...but then what? fight again? No variety? Nothing different?
That's fun? I guess you could always say, "umad bro" or "I pwned you". :rolleyes:
Wow.
I guess for some, grade school will never die. But really, people saying"umadbro" or "i just pwned you" using a fotm build or any build for that matter is most likley 12 or under and not to be taken in a serious matter anyway. That noise kinda takes care of it's self in my book.
Even those "Lemming" and "Copy Cat" builds lose now and then. And when i beat them i say gg. When i lose i say gg. To me, you don't get anything from being unoriginal. No pride from hitching a ride on the fotm express.
No respect. No merrits from being another drone. And what do you win? The person you beat was a clone! Did you beat yourself? I guess skill would come into place with two evenly matched builds...but then what? fight again? No variety? Nothing different?
That's fun? I guess you could always say, "umad bro" or "I pwned you". :rolleyes:
ps I was mostly talking about pvp(1on1)
The whole reason why I mentioned the "umadbro" and "I pwned you" comments was to poke fun at PVP raging as a whole. You give someone flak for using a clone build which is in your opinion, unoriginal and an unsavory practice, and I just gave a rather typical example of a response to such flak.
If they find it fun to use a popular FOTM build template then more power to them. Neither you nor I are paying for the subscriptions (if they are) nor are owners of their accounts to tell them how to play. It's not really my position to judge them for doing what it takes to stay at a competetive edge and aim to win as much as they can either. Also, having an expectation of the PVP playerbase to burden themselves with the task of bringing orginality and variety to the environment, especially just to get " respect", just seems like a silly expectation to me.
Calling them derogatory names like "lemmings" doesn't really help either.
I mean really, what the heck is going on? Watching duels or playing in Alerts, i see no original toons what-so-ever! All i see is AOPM with geyser insert random long range heavy hitter(Ebon ruin, Cascade, Defile, etc) What's wrong with making a concept toon? Is it not cool enough to try and win or compete with something that the other lemmings don't/won't use?
I've asked a few different pvp players why they choose to use builds that give up everything for the purpose of performing well in pvp. I thought the answers were quite interesting. Most of those that I asked mentioned that they wanted to prove they are better than others, which wasn't surprising with it being competitive(although i do find it a little contradictory, because they are attempting to prove they are better by making it easier for themselves). What i found more interesting, was that some of them felt that they had a reputation to maintain, and by losing, it would tarnish this reputation. In a way they've trapped themselves in their build because they want to meet the expectations of others. Some justified their build by pointing out that most other people are using them, so it is fair if they use one also. Similar to this, some said that they needed a build that performed well in every aspect because they were being hunted a lot by people using the same type of build.
I asked some of them if it was possible that they are afraid of losing(often when somebody wants something, they may fear the opposite happening), upon which three of them mentioned that they don't feel fear. Unfortunately I have difficulty believing that, but I could be wrong of course. A lot seemed almost insulted that i'd asked them this question. There wasn't a single one who admitted to being afraid of losing, which is understandable, because admitting you're afraid of something can be embarrassing for some, or perhaps they genuinely weren't afraid of losing. I thought it was interesting that some seemed so threatened by this question.
These are probably some of the reasons that certain builds are seen on such a regular basis, and I can understand your frustration, because we are spoiled for choice when it comes to our options in creating a build, I think it is a real shame that so many have ended up with near the same thing. Although i think we all know who is to blame for this really.
A handful of people waging a non-existant war against people who couldn't give a damn but still answer the old fashioned way. It requires AoPM to do so.
Anyone can take over, barely any skill is involved, and many people will eventually attempt to take place on the non-existant podium of CO's 'legendary' players, or the 'big boys' when they know the 'secret' for victory. (Or at least the simpliest way). The Zatzuken folks, Malware, and many others are perfect examples to that.
It will only make a very slight difference if you went from Unleashed AT to AoPM ruin compared to if you were FF with vast amounts of knowledge about every single powers and mechanics. There aren't much secrets that you can hide behind 'concept builds'.
And in what concerns the 'concept build' PvP'ers:
1) The ignorant community will laugh at you and only see your lack of performance.
2) Nobody will care about how cool you are if you're laying on the ground.
3) It will only reinforce your frustration.
So... yeah, going like this requires you to be a masochist with little to no care toward people. Most aren't. And at one point it gets ridiculous.
Those seeking to dominate will drop that and copy / build something exclusively to put up a fight against the average 'FotMers', the rest will just drop it, at all.
I've asked a few different pvp players why they choose to use builds that give up everything for the purpose of performing well in pvp. I thought the answers were quite interesting. Most of those that I asked mentioned that they wanted to prove they are better than others, which wasn't surprising with it being competitive(although i do find it a little contradictory, because they are attempting to prove they are better by making it easier for themselves). What i found more interesting, was that some of them felt that they had a reputation to maintain, and by losing, it would tarnish this reputation. In a way they've trapped themselves in their build because they want to meet the expectations of others. Some justified their build by pointing out that most other people are using them, so it is fair if they use one also. Similar to this, some said that they needed a build that performed well in every aspect because they were being hunted a lot by people using the same type of build.
I asked some of them if it was possible that they are afraid of losing(often when somebody wants something, they may fear the opposite happening), upon which three of them mentioned that they don't feel fear. Unfortunately I have difficulty believing that, but I could be wrong of course. A lot seemed almost insulted that i'd asked them this question. There wasn't a single one who admitted to being afraid of losing, which is understandable, because admitting you're afraid of something can be embarrassing for some, or perhaps they genuinely weren't afraid of losing. I thought it was interesting that some seemed so threatened by this question.
These are probably some of the reasons that certain builds are seen on such a regular basis, and I can understand your frustration, because we are spoiled for choice when it comes to our options in creating a build, I think it is a real shame that so many have ended up with near the same thing. Although i think we all know who is to blame for this really.
Well done.
Asking people about winning and losing in pvp can be a tough one. I have done the same.
Hearing things like "Everybody else uses aopm and geyser, so why not me?" And when i ask them do you have any toons you made yourself? I get a lot of "Yes, but not for pvp".
It makes sense. Most folks don't want to crunch numbers or figure out for themselves what works. Rather, wait around for the hardcore pvpers to do the work for them.
I guess that's fine for some.
But the whole "Best in pvp" thing is what i find funny. I can find 100 builds just like the ones who claims to be "one of the big boys'. I will never understand that claim if it isn't your build to begin with.
I'm really not here to blame people for being clones of the next guy. I suppose if losing in a duel means that much to them they will do whatever it takes to win. Your findings and mine are just proof of that.
Asking people about winning and losing in pvp can be a tough one. I have done the same.
I tried it once. Everyone assumed I was accusing them of something and it turned into a rehash of every hurt feeling and bruised ego anyone had ever had in pvp. This forum is toxic when it comes to mature, objective conversation.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
I mean really, what the heck is going on? Watching duels or playing in Alerts, i see no original toons what-so-ever! All i see is AOPM with geyser insert random long range heavy hitter(Ebon ruin, Cascade, Defile, etc) What's wrong with making a concept toon? Is it not cool enough to try and win or compete with something that the other lemmings don't/won't use?
I don't get it. To top it off, these clones act as if they're god's gift to PVP !
As if i would ever be proud of using a carbon copy of the next guy, who is just a carbon copy
of the last guy, who's just a....you get the point.
PvP was a lot more fun to watch and play a year ago imo. Just a lot more variety in builds.
And no, i dont get owned or cry when i pvp against the many AOPM drones.
But, since the patch pretty much ruined my Brick toon, i have been watching a lot more.
And AOPM is the 1# passive i see out there. And that's a fact jack. Now, i'm not the one to throw the nerf bat around lightly, but...either do something about Geysers 100ft travel remover or scale back a bit on the numbers you can get with AOPM. Maybe a cool down on Geyser at the very least. Bring back some strategy and skill to slowing down the other guy instead of an auto-remover from a far with no penalty.
Oh so Im not alone in this :biggrin: .. Its true lol, RenCen is polluted by AOPM + concentration and thats that, my theme tank(my main toon) who can solo some legendaries got destroyed in seconds by - AOPM+ Concentration build: cascade, evasive maneuvers, more cascade( i got hit with 9k cascade insane lol).. that was my fisrt encounter with a copy/paste build and since I had nvr seen it before I though " wow what a good pvp player "..well then I had a few more duels and pretty much saw what the deal was. Tbh I dont see the point in destroying my lvl 40 just to retcon it into a boring pvp build :cool:
My trinity build uses Aura but she doesn't use Concentration, and the non-trinity version is able to contend with the Emperor's clone army. :P
A lot of so-called concept characters fail because some people stick so close to a concept that they feel the need to intentionally nerf their toon with weird super stats or excluding many good powers. I always choose propa (yes, propa! ^_~) super stats and alter my theme slightly or make exceptions for certain powers with a good explanation, if my character does fit a concept (I think all of my current ones do). Being a duelist doesn't necessarily mean you're good at pvp. In hero games there's no bubble that your opponent is trapped in, and there are other hostile targets you have to contend with. Trapping someone in a bubble and nerfing them so they can't see you or heal themselves doesn't take much skill at all.
Having whatever the latest flavor is doesn't mean you'll understand how to use it. I've seen people with an "elite pvp build" get killed in almost one hit by a concept character. They forget to heal themselves or what have you. This is why ppl get knocked around like billiard balls by a real tank. ^_~
My trinity build uses Aura but she doesn't use Concentration, and the non-trinity version is able to contend with the Emperor's clone army. :P
A lot of so-called concept characters fail because some people stick so close to a concept that they feel the need to intentionally nerf their toon with weird super stats or excluding many good powers. I always choose propa (yes, propa! ^_~) super stats and alter my theme slightly or make exceptions for certain powers with a good explanation, if my character does fit a concept (I think all of my current ones do). Being a duelist doesn't necessarily mean you're good at pvp. In hero games there's no bubble that your opponent is trapped in, and there are other hostile targets you have to contend with. Trapping someone in a bubble and nerfing them so they can't see you or heal themselves doesn't take much skill at all.
Having whatever the latest flavor is doesn't mean you'll understand how to use it. I've seen people with an "elite pvp build" get killed in almost one hit by a concept character. They forget to heal themselves or what have you. This is why ppl get knocked around like billiard balls by a real tank. ^_~
Bingo!Trapping someone in a bubble and nerfing them so they can't see you or heal themselves doesn't take much skill at all.
^ This right here! SOOOOOO true it hurts! That's the biggest deal to me, fighting someone who can't fight back? Why not just go into the powerhouse and fight those "Dummies" in the battle room? (the ones that don't fight back) They just stand there.
Is that fun? Do you get a challenge from that?
I mean think about it. Isn't that what people are attempting to do? Smoke bomb. Geyser.
Can't see. Stunned. Blast away! Done. Repeat.
now, if you watch two "real"(no smoke bombs or geyser) melee builds go at it...you have to actually fight! Some ranged as well. They can see you, you can see them. Game on.
You have to counter and react based on what you "SEE". They have a chance. You have a chance. Comes down to skill at this point, imo. Unless, the two are aopm, geyser clones. One side will have a greater advantage then the other in most cases.
If they cant see...or react...well, it doesn't take much skill to kill them, does it.
I would say no. A non moving, seeing target is easy prey. No challenge at all. Fact.
Hmm, interesting, so I just wish to point out whether this thread is about AoPM clones or is the issue here smoke grenade or is it force geyser. We should not link all the issues together although they may come frequently in a package. In the past this was less of an issue because those who PvP regularly would have armed themselves with gear to see through smoke grenade's stealth although the escape artist advantage is still an annoyance.
A blinded opponent thoguh similar is not equitable to a test dummy. A player has the option to stun his/her opponent before they can use smoke. He/She may also activate a stealth power like teleport provided the opponent does not have stealth sight. Or you may also use smoke grenade as a counter which may of course leave a bad aftertaste. If you are aware of the problems melee face due to the series of attacks mention afore, then I see the challenge is in coming up with a melee build to counter that. I can empathise the pain as I used to be at the receiving end of such attacks. Solution? Try to find a build to counter it. I do have a solution but then where is the fun to see the counter being an attack of the perma MD clones.
Ok well...I didn't bother to read through this post except a few at the beginning.
AoPM is overpowered, everyone knows it, you can't argue. Its the most used passive because it gives high amounts of everything to yourself and teammates. That and the fact it lets you hit silly amounts of one stat while providing good stat numbers to everything else causing you to approach DRs on most things, bringing your DPS up, effectively...and defense...and support. This straight up needs a nerf, you should be getting anymore than +50 to self and to teammates. Even then its still better than most passives because it still grants everything.
Force Geyser? Are we still arguing? Its still one of the most overpowered utilities, its a 100' knock up that hits more often that not and its a NTTG with a snare advantage. It has a jokingly short cooldown letting you get the full out of MSA, not to mention the knock itself is strong enough to give you good setup to most attacks. Pre On-Alert it was the alternative to maintained holds, or the biggest compliment to one. Its half of what made melee able to compete in PvP, pre On-Alert, as much as I hate to say that. FG simply needs a range nerf, and maybe a longer cooldown/weaker knock. But I believe most utility attacks, omit lunges, should be 50 feet, not 100.
Smoke Grenade? Well...this is more debateable, what truly makes Smoke grenade OP is the binary function of it. Either it Stealthes you completely, or it doesn't. If you use R3 smoke grenade and shadowform and your opponent doesn't have perception gear, you are completely invisible and therefore breaking the game. If they do have perception gear, however...you're completely useless and suck ****. This is really more of an issue with the game's stealth mechanics itself. Stealth (like Crowd Control) deserves a much larger rework than what Nighthawk update has done. My quick fix suggestion would be to remove the entire -perception deal. make it a placate with a 45(or 60) base cooldown that lasts 5/7/10 seconds at R1/2/3.
Ok well...I didn't bother to read through this post except a few at the beginning.
AoPM is overpowered, everyone knows it, you can't argue. Its the most used passive because it gives high amounts of everything to yourself and teammates. That and the fact it lets you hit silly amounts of one stat while providing good stat numbers to everything else causing you to approach DRs on most things, bringing your DPS up, effectively...and defense...and support. This straight up needs a nerf, you should be getting anymore than +50 to self and to teammates. Even then its still better than most passives because it still grants everything.
Force Geyser? Are we still arguing? Its still one of the most overpowered utilities, its a 100' knock up that hits more often that not and its a NTTG with a snare advantage. It has a jokingly short cooldown letting you get the full out of MSA, not to mention the knock itself is strong enough to give you good setup to most attacks. Pre On-Alert it was the alternative to maintained holds, or the biggest compliment to one. Its half of what made melee able to compete in PvP, pre On-Alert, as much as I hate to say that. FG simply needs a range nerf, and maybe a longer cooldown/weaker knock. But I believe most utility attacks, omit lunges, should be 50 feet, not 100.
Smoke Grenade? Well...this is more debateable, what truly makes Smoke grenade OP is the binary function of it. Either it Stealthes you completely, or it doesn't. If you use R3 smoke grenade and shadowform and your opponent doesn't have perception gear, you are completely invisible and therefore breaking the game. If they do have perception gear, however...you're completely useless and suck ****. This is really more of an issue with the game's stealth mechanics itself. Stealth (like Crowd Control) deserves a much larger rework than what Nighthawk update has done. My quick fix suggestion would be to remove the entire -perception deal. make it a placate with a 45(or 60) base cooldown that lasts 5/7/10 seconds at R1/2/3.
Your analysis of the different advantages of the different powers are spot on accurate but I am cautious about nerfing. As I mentioned before in another thread, one of the main attractons of CO is the vast range of options be it costume or powers with varying functions. Admittedly, some powers seem useless, some broken but the variety is there. Some may gimp themselves for aesthetic or thematic reasons too. I also fear that the only way for "balance" given the freeform system is to simply have different skins for different power sets but they function the same. I dread the day that happens. Rather than nerf some of the powers, we may wish to buff or repair those which are broken.
Your analysis of the different advantages of the different powers are spot on accurate but I am cautious about nerfing. As I mentioned before in another thread, one of the main attractons of CO is the vast range of options be it costume or powers with varying functions. Admittedly, some powers seem useless, some broken but the variety is there. Some may gimp themselves for aesthetic or thematic reasons too. I also fear that the only way for "balance" given the freeform system is to simply have different skins for different power sets but they function the same. I dread the day that happens. Rather than nerf some of the powers, we may wish to buff or repair those which are broken.
As far as nerfing goes, I've noticed a pattern, there are Good nerfs and there are Bad nerfs.
Example of a bad nerf: Forum rant: "Dragon's Wrath is overpowered, my concept fire tank who doesn't dodge and refuses healing dies from it, I should not be able to die. Nerf it into the ground."
Note, player did not make any numerical arguement, player incompetantly pointed out his tank itself is horribly underpowered by mentioned "doesn't heal" and "doesn't dodge" also he has the mentality that he cannot die, even though his build is (obviously) complete garbage.
Example of a good nerf: "I've noticed an excessive use of AoPM in this game recently, I've been wondering why, so I investigated. I first noted, AoPM grants fairly large sums of stat to every stat, around +70. 70 stats to all 8 stats is a total of 70x8 560 stat total, this is almost as much as I get with all my gear, aswell as its spread out so I hit well enough into each stat to get the best of their benefits. For example I reach the soft cap of Ego, Strength, and Pre bonuses. I also noticed that this works well with stat based specs, especially intelligence, boosting the worth of each stat point combined with boosts my total stat pool is an obvious combo. Finally, because of all the stat boost, my damage increases considerably more than appropriate, partially because the stat growth effects form bonuses, aswell as bonuses from superstats themselves. Along with the free end/rec boosts making my energy return ridiculously strong. In my opinion, I find AoPM to be Overpowered, I think the numbers should be lowered from +70 to at most +50 to teammates and self. This would lower the total stat growth to 50x8 = 400 stat. This should be open to adjustment if based on the resulting change."
Now here the player went very specific, testing the power for themselves gave numbers and interactions they've noticed and instead of saying "Nerf into ground pls" They gave an opinion and stated what they felt to be an appropriate nerf.
Edit: Nevermind I figured it out after playing 1 PVP match lol it's that purple aura and yeah you are right everyone has it lol...I do not think it should be nerfed though because it allows for more freedom for hybrid builds. Also nerfing powers because of PVP is dumb anyways, since PVP is always going to be unbalanced.
Just because PvPers use AoPM doesn't mean it should get nerfed (again). Even though it was just nerfed, nerfing it AGAIN to give only 50 to stats, AoPM will still be the best passive choice. Then you will say "why are all these PvPers using AoPM? It must be OP. Nerf it!" and obviously the vicious cycle of nerfing and degrading AoPM until it finally is just boosting stats by 24 or worse. Congratulations, everyone is an unkillable Invuln/Defiance Ruin tank again!
Get real, and please don't cry "nerf!" blademaster's DW comparison is no different from his actual argument.
Just because PvPers use AoPM doesn't mean it should get nerfed (again). Even though it was just nerfed, nerfing it AGAIN to give only 50 to stats, AoPM will still be the best passive choice. Then you will say "why are all these PvPers using AoPM? It must be OP. Nerf it!" and obviously the vicious cycle of nerfing and degrading AoPM until it finally is just boosting stats by 24 or worse. Congratulations, everyone is an unkillable Invuln/Defiance Ruin tank again!
Get real, and please don't cry "nerf!" blademaster's DW comparison is no different from his actual argument.
Someone is angry :rolleyes:
Its not just the PvPers, either, its ******n near everyone. So the arguement isn't "Everyone is using it, it must be OP." This is the question. "Since everyone is using AoPM...why? Is it OP? Is it just a fad?" We all know invul/defiance/stacking defensives is OP anyway, as is...most ranged spikes. Its not like they're going to nerf it, I doubt they even read this forum.
I've asked a few different pvp players why they choose to use builds that give up everything for the purpose of performing well in pvp. I thought the answers were quite interesting. Most of those that I asked mentioned that they wanted to prove they are better than others, which wasn't surprising with it being competitive(although i do find it a little contradictory, because they are attempting to prove they are better by making it easier for themselves). What i found more interesting, was that some of them felt that they had a reputation to maintain, and by losing, it would tarnish this reputation. In a way they've trapped themselves in their build because they want to meet the expectations of others. Some justified their build by pointing out that most other people are using them, so it is fair if they use one also. Similar to this, some said that they needed a build that performed well in every aspect because they were being hunted a lot by people using the same type of build.
I don't have the artistic creativity of someone like yourself. My creativity is more mechanical, and applies to the numbers side of the game, with my "themes" being reversed justified around arithmetic combinations that I like. But these days the numbers side of the game is simple, and widely known to everyone. The part of character building that I enjoyed most was flattened, and made shallow.
I don't have exceptional skill at operating the game; in fact I'd rate my skill as poor. The only advantage I ever had that allowed me to PvP at the highest levels was knowing the ins and outs of the game better than most people did during 2009-2010. During that time, my superior knowledge of stats allowed me to get away with using sub-optimal builds, while still having them be viable enough.
I am a nice person, and was reasonably generous with sharing advanced knowledge when I had it, and was also reluctant to abuse that knowledge against others. I computed all the optimal stat configurations for the various buffs and passives. I spent hundreds of hours in the power house to see what the powers truly did, beyond their tooltips. I constantly pushed for more people to use INT and stealth sight. I'm lucky that many people still remember and appreciate these past actions. I don't use FoTM to help my reputation, in fact it only damages it, especially because I end up losing most of the time anyway. Good thing I don't care about winning, or score. I just want to run around and push buttons.
Just because PvPers use AoPM doesn't mean it should get nerfed (again). Even though it was just nerfed, nerfing it AGAIN to give only 50 to stats, AoPM will still be the best passive choice. Then you will say "why are all these PvPers using AoPM? It must be OP. Nerf it!" and obviously the vicious cycle of nerfing and degrading AoPM until it finally is just boosting stats by 24 or worse. Congratulations, everyone is an unkillable Invuln/Defiance Ruin tank again!
Get real, and please don't cry "nerf!" blademaster's DW comparison is no different from his actual argument.
Clone, back to the kitchen, you, I don't get why you feel threatened. Won't you just jump on whatever will rule PvP next when AoPM ever gets taken care of and keep attempting to inflate your ego and try to leave a mark in this game anyways?
AoPM give endurance and recovery, because it you don't need take this worst stats with super stat to use high cost powers. The real problem here is MSA, MSA raise very easy your energy to full.
Clone, back to the kitchen, you, I don't get why you feel threatened. Won't you just jump on whatever will rule PvP next when AoPM ever gets taken care of and keep attempting to inflate your ego and try to leave a mark in this game anyways?
Interesting direction of your rage. I wonder why? Why I should care. You seem to have a shattered ego, the way you constantly try to start fights on forums with me. Being rude is your only mastery. Class is something you are lacking.
Yes, let's nerf all of pve because the small pvp community likes a few specific powers. That'll go over well, as is evidenced by how ego storm is viewed right now.
We *just* got a form review. I'd rather not see them get re-nerfed.
In game, I am @EvilTaco. Happily killing purple gang members since May 2008. RIP Caine
Yes, let's nerf all of pve because the small pvp community likes a few specific powers. That'll go over well, as is evidenced by how ego storm is viewed right now.
We *just* got a form review. I'd rather not see them get re-nerfed.
Wait, why are people raging again?
Is it really AoPM or the fact that in order to be competitive, you must build a certain way?
What needs to happen is that the lower performing abilities need to be brought in line with the "OP" abilities.
This is a game about super heroes not super wimps. :biggrin:
I want to be able to make a concept char that does 21k spikes.
I want to be able to use my concept char while aggro-ing everything in nemcon.
The problem isn't AoPM. The problems are all the under-performing powers.
Yes, let's nerf all of pve because the small pvp community likes a few specific powers. That'll go over well, as is evidenced by how ego storm is viewed right now.
We *just* got a form review. I'd rather not see them get re-nerfed.
Not that it's likely to happen but sometimes I wonder if many powers should get two versions of effect like Crippling Challenge does, one for PvE one for PvP
Otherwise PvP will keep f-ing up otherwise good PvE powers and good PvE powers will keep f-ing up PvP
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Not that it's likely to happen but sometimes I wonder if many powers should get two versions of effect like Crippling Challenge does, one for PvE one for PvP
Otherwise PvP will keep f-ing up otherwise good PvE powers and good PvE powers will keep f-ing up PvP
It seems a good idea on paper. But in practice it simply divides builds further and further apart.
As it is, you all but get lambasted for taking a concept build into PVP. You divide the powers youll end up with cases where folks go..."How come my perfectly viable build suddenly sucks in PVP?" Or you simply distill PVP further into proven copycat builds.
I dont like it when PVP nerfs effect my PVE game anymore then anyone else. But Im honestly not sure if further separation of the powers is going to produce a worse fix then the problem.
It seems a good idea on paper. But in practice it simply divides builds further and further apart.
As it is, you all but get lambasted for taking a concept build into PVP. You divide the powers youll end up with cases where folks go..."How come my perfectly viable build suddenly sucks in PVP?" Or you simply distill PVP further into proven copycat builds.
I dont like it when PVP nerfs effect my PVE game anymore then anyone else. But Im honestly not sure if further separation of the powers is going to produce a worse fix then the problem.
Well what we're doing now certainly isn't working. I've seen this FotM mess go round for the entire time the games been live.
I've proposed, mostly in jest, a PvP power-set with a large set of generic powers so the balance crap can stop hurting the core game, PvE.
Frankly I'm sick of PvP messing up PvE powers and it needs to stop. I believe PvP is a good part of the game, but a secondary one. This isn't a PvP centered game and we're just goign to have to live with that.. .somehow.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Yes, let's nerf all of pve because the small pvp community likes a few specific powers. That'll go over well, as is evidenced by how ego storm is viewed right now.
We *just* got a form review. I'd rather not see them get re-nerfed.
Ego storm was "broken" for long before I started from what I've read of past threads. The problem is how they blanketed it to all holds and reduced their general effectiveness. 50ft range is usually more than enough penalty as far as pvp goes.
Interesting direction of your rage. I wonder why? Why I should care. You seem to have a shattered ego, the way you constantly try to start fights on forums with me. Being rude is your only mastery. Class is something you are lacking.
Well let me educate you, I fancy dropping random comments here and there on which noone will ever care about, the only one who does is... you, don't try to include fake cynism of accusate my nonexistant rage you barely have a clue about the use of to answer to me whenever you're deeply upset for being put back where you belong and not wherever you dream to be (which provocates one hell of a laugh by the way for all your desperate attempts including the very threads you made). I'm never rude to 2nd degree people and anyone who knows what's at stake in this game, which is for now, absolutely nothing. I don't judge people because they use Single Blade and not AoPM ruin or whatever unevolved form of it you're actually using.
Get your feet back on earth, stop being an asshat, swallow that non-existant pride along with your stuck up attitude toward 'people being better than you (and that's alot) / non PvP'ers / fun peeps'.
I know you can't live without me, that you need to win that war only you thought about against me as I'm only a lvl 6 silver bored of Gold time being resumed to smashing you, random people and fighting overpowered builds with an overpowered build, I'm not masochist enough to camp the Hero Games and getting wacked with the few builds I really enjoy playing, by stuck up people like you, though these days, there are only a few of those as more and more get to understand the PvP feature of this game making it more relaxed, but only idiots never get to change eh? ... Idiot.
If you need to unleash all your frustration for failing to reach the heights where the few people there really marked this game, then go for it, answer me back, I'm here, don't worry. Although I'm sure you'll find enough courage to substract these facts and just insult me again to get your nonexistant ego in check but it's okay, do so, and no problems, in advance.
Ego storm was "broken" for long before I started from what I've read of past threads.
I'd just like to point out.. no one ever hated Ego Storm, even when it was mobile. They hate Malevolent Manifestation.
There is a CLEAR and DISTINCT difference:
EGO storm is a maintain in which you do damage and holds.. there is little chance for you, while damaging and holding, to spike damage your opponent until AFTER the maintain has ended.
Malevolent Manifestation is an overpowered asshat of a power and should be removed in its current form from the game entirely.
Well let me educate you, I fancy dropping random comments here and there on which noone will ever care about, the only one who does is... you, don't try to include fake cynism of accusate my nonexistant rage you barely have a clue about the use of to answer to me whenever you're deeply upset for being put back where you belong and not wherever you dream to be (which provocates one hell of a laugh by the way for all your desperate attempts including the very threads you made). I'm never rude to 2nd degree people and anyone who knows what's at stake in this game, which is for now, absolutely nothing. I don't judge people because they use Single Blade and not AoPM ruin or whatever unevolved form of it you're actually using.
Get your feet back on earth, stop being an asshat, swallow that non-existant pride along with your stuck up attitude toward 'people being better than you (and that's alot) / non PvP'ers / fun peeps'.
I know you can't live without me, that you need to win that war only you thought about against me as I'm only a lvl 6 silver bored of Gold time being resumed to smashing you, random people and fighting overpowered builds with an overpowered build, I'm not masochist enough to camp the Hero Games and getting wacked with the few builds I really enjoy playing, by stuck up people like you, though these days, there are only a few of those as more and more get to understand the PvP feature of this game making it more relaxed, but only idiots never get to change eh? ... Idiot.
If you need to unleash all your frustration for failing to reach the heights where the few people there really marked this game, then go for it, answer me back, I'm here, don't worry. Although I'm sure you'll find enough courage to substract these facts and just insult me again to get your nonexistant ego in check but it's okay, do so, and no problems, in advance.
You really think a lot about me, at least looking at this long-winded thing you replied with. Lots of emotion... Way too much in fact. Your obsession with attacking me is reaching all new heights. Congratulations, you are only outdoing yourself with this.
In regards to... Whatever your insinuations are, let me say this: I play Hero Games for fun. I want to be a balancing force in free-for-all environments such as BASH where one group that usually outnumbers another group decide to pick on solely that other group for the entire duration of the match. I am the guy that pisses off both sides causing them to be forced to "work together" to take me out. I think what I do for BASH is 100% the opposite of whatever you think I am trying to achieve other than pure neutrality.
Your unending rage permanently directed at me is getting old. I don't care anymore about why you dislike me so much nor do I care if you like me or continue to put upon me any further on these forums. Whatever ?point? you have to make, I am assuming, has long since been made. You don't like me. You think I am some kind of "elitist living in a world comprised of my own imagination" but honestly, really, sincerely, I know there is absolutely a very thin & delicate PvP community that is either talking mad **** to each other, or they are using extreme build-types to battle one another and the odd in-betweener passerby gets destroyed and rages on the forums in this process. Well I am against that, I want to even the playfield. I want to not farm those new to the world of Hero Games. I want to leave the ArcheTypes alone and help the one guy getting farmed by the many.
So really, Forz, why do you persist? I don't care about you. Does that upset you?
Well I think this will soon be a battle of AoPM-Malvan vs. Night Warrior spiking stalker vs. UR Tank with super recharge speed.
Someone PLZ give Healers a place >.<
The AoPM Malvan will win because he is tankier than the UR tank and spikier than the Night Warrior spiker, lol, not to mention he is ranged and sees through Night Warrior's pathetic stealth.
Oh and the healer will just stand there laughing as they all futilely try to kill her when they can't do anything to her.
The AoPM Malvan will win because he is tankier than the UR tank and spikier than the Night Warrior spiker, lol, not to mention he is ranged and sees through Night Warrior's pathetic stealth.
Oh and the healer will just stand there laughing as they all futilely try to kill her when they can't do anything to her.
My test in PTS is done and I have to say Night Warrior is bit OP for now. Depends on how someone build but I can't say AoPM Malvan will always win.
AoPM with Malvan can't be so tanky like as recent days cause of Recharge speed problem.
I think next stage will be the battle field of Peeper with AoPM, Stalker, and some self touching ppl. This sounds bit abnormal. xD
AoPM give endurance and recovery, because it you don't need take this worst stats with super stat to use high cost powers. The real problem here is MSA, MSA raise very easy your energy to full.
I'd just like to point out.. no one ever hated Ego Storm, even when it was mobile. They hate Malevolent Manifestation.
There is a CLEAR and DISTINCT difference:
EGO storm is a maintain in which you do damage and holds.. there is little chance for you, while damaging and holding, to spike damage your opponent until AFTER the maintain has ended.
Malevolent Manifestation is an overpowered asshat of a power and should be removed in its current form from the game entirely.
Before holds got the massive nerf, you're right it was the combination of ego storm and the adv since it would reapply the hold but allow the original user to act. But ultimately, it was the fact that it would reapply the effect making it nearly unbreakable without a breakfree from an active offense/defense.
I am the guy that pisses off both sides causing them to be forced to "work together" to take me out. I think what I do for BASH is 100% the opposite of whatever you think I am trying to achieve other than pure neutrality.
You, are the guy who insults everyone who doesn't talk build or PvP in a channel noone stopped caring about and taunting the lot of peeps mashing you so you could feel better about yourself. And that is merely an annoyance to anyone. So yeah, you sure piss everyone off but not in the Hero Games unfortunately, you're barely a random like me, and alot of people using an obselete overpowered build to try to be the "King of PvP" or whatever weird dream you have. It explains as much when you refuse to make videos of you not having the upper hand, you want to help people out or try to mind**** them so they believe you're kind of badass?
Second: I expected as much that you wouldn't read what I said and just blatantly insult me so there it's almost okay.
Third: You don't get to care about me but you keep insisting on insulting me with passion, it's not like you like much things anyways except yourself. I'll never understand that one. Well, keep contradicting yourself and continue, keep caring about me, I know you'll do so!
______________________
Well sorry for having the hands full with that one drooling on me but what promknight actually said is part of true, INT is one hell of an awesome stat if you know what I mean, but I don't think that splitting its awesome features and powers between END and REC would be a good idea, and it would even reinforce the use of Aura of Alphabet Soup.
You, are the guy who insults everyone who doesn't talk build or PvP in a channel noone stopped caring about and taunting the lot of peeps mashing you so you could feel better about yourself. And that is merely an annoyance to anyone. So yeah, you sure piss everyone off but not in the Hero Games unfortunately, you're barely a random like me, and alot of people using an obselete overpowered build to try to be the "King of PvP" or whatever weird dream you have. It explains as much when you refuse to make videos of you not having the upper hand, you want to help people out or try to mind**** them so they believe you're kind of badass?
Second: I expected as much that you wouldn't read what I said and just blatantly insult me so there it's almost okay.
Third: You don't get to care about me but you keep insisting on insulting me with passion, it's not like you like much things anyways except yourself. I'll never understand that one. Well, keep contradicting yourself and continue, keep caring about me, I know you'll do so!
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Well sorry for having the hands full with that one drooling on me but what promknight actually said is part of true, INT is one hell of an awesome stat if you know what I mean, but I don't think that splitting its awesome features and powers between END and REC would be a good idea, and it would even reinforce the use of Aura of Alphabet Soup.
I don't get it. Are you jealous for some reason? And then you say I'm the "one drooling" over you..
HahahahahaHahahahaha! :biggrin:
The only one "passionately insulting" the other here is you, over and over. Your replies are getting a bit hard to read as well, so full of rage and horrible sentence structures. If you are going to carry on being my biggest troll, at least be legible. Thanks.
Comments
haha
I like Aura a lot, but all my builds are original. You'll never see me copy everything down to the energy builder. xD I don't use aura on every build either.
You saw some really cool builds and a lot more variety to be sure.
But that was then. Now is, well...you know...attack of the clones!
Wasn't that a movie?
Yup. Copying it self isn't so problem. Cause you can learn many thing from other ppls build. But we also have to learn how to use and what can do. Have to remind Ideology? concept? I dn't know suitably word.
I myself had to copy & arrange Wes's build to fix my "Dodge-Healer" concept cause LR was terribly nurfed.
Someone in Youtube seems doesn't like my jumpy-jump dodge healer and seems like net drama isn't still over for him.
I'm always welcome for net stalker but he never comes to forums or in PvP. xD
Agreed. 100% true. This is why they need to standardize their spreadsheets.
There is only one power that hits 5 targets up to 100 ft as hard as it does with knockback.. and it's line of sight not even PBAoE.
It's clear to me that the devs are to blame not the players. If you're serious about PvP you pick what works.
I only wish I could avoid all the builds that are "serious about PvP" and play pvp with people who are "serious about their character concept". Without the ability to blacklist PvPers I dont want to play with I simply will not enjoy PvP.
Stalking Melee and AoPM with perception gear will ruin the world. xD
I just wish Healer will get the place. xD
And then... well, not sure how good of an idea was the ability to stack crit chance or crit sev without much DEX and no EGO at all, making it mainstream and totally annihilating the raw damage's benefits. And giving more options for more absurd stats to raise.
Remember when every PVP map was filled to the brim with WTK spammers ?
Or how about every other build designed around STC ?
Or Laser Sword former debuff glory.?
Or Catalyst gear fueled PA spike ?
or everyone's favorite Qular pistol.
God, I remember a BASH match where Nesno, loaded for bear with Laser Sword, STC, and Chainsaw, chased at least 8 other players around the map slaughtering them at will. They ran and screamed like sorority girls in a slasher flick while he farmed the hell out of them. Shortly thereafter you started seeing "LoLsaw" builds by the dozen.
There has ALWAYS been a focus on a relatively small (as a percentage of total options) number of particularly effective builds in CO PvP. It may have been refined down a bit further, but its nothing new. This is evolution.
This is not necessarily even a matter of copycatting. Sure much of it will be, but anyone with serious PvP inclinations is going to look at the power/advantage lists and recognize that being able to remove a TP from further away is better than not being able to do so.
All of that said, it would be nice to see things balanced in such a fashion that the number of "PvP good" options increased. As it stands now...Do the evolution baby.
'Caine, miss you bud. Fly high.
At least we had variety at some point, and rewards to work towards to overcome weaknesses. Now it's "either you are one of the few, highly specific builds or you're not going to make a single drop of Acclaim in the only map the community plays(BASH)" and "Your Acclaim buys you virtually nothing."
It wouldn't be fair to point the finger at the community. It's not their fault. You're supposed to be an *******, or expect to meet them, in PvP.
It falls upon the devs to make compelling rewards, and to maintain balance. After all, a jerk in PvP isn't so bad if they can die.
You might as well call PVP'ers from other games like Guild Wars and Rift using a standard, popular build template to bring their A-game as being "lemmings" and "copycats", then have them laugh in your face when your "original" build gets squashed by them. I'm pretty sure any rage accusations against someone who has a copycat build in this game will be met with responses of "umadbro?" and "Whatever, I just pwned you.".
I will always remember the days where "everybody" (not really everybody so you don't
need to correct me) was an Uppercut spammer with Laserknight and Teleport. That was
at least how it sounded in the forums at the time i started playing CO.
Ahh .. all these Upperclones that days .. *nostalgic sigh* :cool:
Pre-Alert I ran an electric sniper, and made plenty of folks in ZA angry with sudden death from above.
But she had gaping weaknesses but was still viable against many opponents as there was plenty of variety then, as the rewards were an incentive for getting people into the games that would never pvp otherwise.
There's far fewer newcomers, and most of them aren't true pvpers. True pvpers will take the worst beatings and still come back for more, learning from each experience.
Most players new to pvp come in, get torn apart, and never look back as there's no reward, and the experience was anything but fun.
Karm.. I mean Kontrol reporting for PvP. Did someone call me..?
- -
Honestly my build has not and will not change with the tides. I was once the most feared "invisible confuser" that loved watching spammers not even realize they were blasting their own teammates. Became hated and hunted like none other.. and good ole Aura of Arcane Clarity boosting my HP/Mitigation 0% with 4500 HP.. There was nothing better.
I remember "Farm-a-Karma" Bash Matches where I had to run and hide in construction zones using my CC to gain distance.. since I dont fly or teleport it was quite the fun meta game.. Spider Lairing people in the stairs as I tried to CC all my aggressors as they farm me for the win. I didn't complain about losing (with no possibility to win) because it was FUN. It stopped being fun when they took my precious CC from me completely and people became ***holes about it. Now I just like to go in and spam confuses on players because I love watching how useless a once fun build can become.
Crash Bandicoot made an entire franchise of "How many ways can I die".. players don't mind losing.. they do mind being completely outmatched without the chance for victory.
I guess for some, grade school will never die. But really, people saying"umadbro" or "i just pwned you" using a fotm build or any build for that matter is most likley 12 or under and not to be taken in a serious matter anyway. That noise kinda takes care of it's self in my book.
Even those "Lemming" and "Copy Cat" builds lose now and then. And when i beat them i say gg. When i lose i say gg. To me, you don't get anything from being unoriginal. No pride from hitching a ride on the fotm express.
No respect. No merrits from being another drone. And what do you win? The person you beat was a clone! Did you beat yourself? I guess skill would come into place with two evenly matched builds...but then what? fight again? No variety? Nothing different?
That's fun? I guess you could always say, "umad bro" or "I pwned you". :rolleyes:
ps I was mostly talking about pvp(1on1)
The whole reason why I mentioned the "umadbro" and "I pwned you" comments was to poke fun at PVP raging as a whole. You give someone flak for using a clone build which is in your opinion, unoriginal and an unsavory practice, and I just gave a rather typical example of a response to such flak.
If they find it fun to use a popular FOTM build template then more power to them. Neither you nor I are paying for the subscriptions (if they are) nor are owners of their accounts to tell them how to play. It's not really my position to judge them for doing what it takes to stay at a competetive edge and aim to win as much as they can either. Also, having an expectation of the PVP playerbase to burden themselves with the task of bringing orginality and variety to the environment, especially just to get " respect", just seems like a silly expectation to me.
Calling them derogatory names like "lemmings" doesn't really help either.
I've asked a few different pvp players why they choose to use builds that give up everything for the purpose of performing well in pvp. I thought the answers were quite interesting. Most of those that I asked mentioned that they wanted to prove they are better than others, which wasn't surprising with it being competitive(although i do find it a little contradictory, because they are attempting to prove they are better by making it easier for themselves). What i found more interesting, was that some of them felt that they had a reputation to maintain, and by losing, it would tarnish this reputation. In a way they've trapped themselves in their build because they want to meet the expectations of others. Some justified their build by pointing out that most other people are using them, so it is fair if they use one also. Similar to this, some said that they needed a build that performed well in every aspect because they were being hunted a lot by people using the same type of build.
I asked some of them if it was possible that they are afraid of losing(often when somebody wants something, they may fear the opposite happening), upon which three of them mentioned that they don't feel fear. Unfortunately I have difficulty believing that, but I could be wrong of course. A lot seemed almost insulted that i'd asked them this question. There wasn't a single one who admitted to being afraid of losing, which is understandable, because admitting you're afraid of something can be embarrassing for some, or perhaps they genuinely weren't afraid of losing. I thought it was interesting that some seemed so threatened by this question.
These are probably some of the reasons that certain builds are seen on such a regular basis, and I can understand your frustration, because we are spoiled for choice when it comes to our options in creating a build, I think it is a real shame that so many have ended up with near the same thing. Although i think we all know who is to blame for this really.
Anyone can take over, barely any skill is involved, and many people will eventually attempt to take place on the non-existant podium of CO's 'legendary' players, or the 'big boys' when they know the 'secret' for victory. (Or at least the simpliest way). The Zatzuken folks, Malware, and many others are perfect examples to that.
It will only make a very slight difference if you went from Unleashed AT to AoPM ruin compared to if you were FF with vast amounts of knowledge about every single powers and mechanics. There aren't much secrets that you can hide behind 'concept builds'.
And in what concerns the 'concept build' PvP'ers:
1) The ignorant community will laugh at you and only see your lack of performance.
2) Nobody will care about how cool you are if you're laying on the ground.
3) It will only reinforce your frustration.
So... yeah, going like this requires you to be a masochist with little to no care toward people. Most aren't. And at one point it gets ridiculous.
Those seeking to dominate will drop that and copy / build something exclusively to put up a fight against the average 'FotMers', the rest will just drop it, at all.
Well that explains why I hate you all so much right now.
Nepht and Dr Deflecto on primus
They all thought I was out of the game....But I'm holding all the lockboxes now..
I'll......FOAM FINGER YOUR BACK!
Asking people about winning and losing in pvp can be a tough one. I have done the same.
Hearing things like "Everybody else uses aopm and geyser, so why not me?" And when i ask them do you have any toons you made yourself? I get a lot of "Yes, but not for pvp".
It makes sense. Most folks don't want to crunch numbers or figure out for themselves what works. Rather, wait around for the hardcore pvpers to do the work for them.
I guess that's fine for some.
But the whole "Best in pvp" thing is what i find funny. I can find 100 builds just like the ones who claims to be "one of the big boys'. I will never understand that claim if it isn't your build to begin with.
I'm really not here to blame people for being clones of the next guy. I suppose if losing in a duel means that much to them they will do whatever it takes to win. Your findings and mine are just proof of that.
So... travesty? Can we all agree to replace "joke" with "travesty" ?
Defenition: A false, absurd, or distorted representation of something.
I tried it once. Everyone assumed I was accusing them of something and it turned into a rehash of every hurt feeling and bruised ego anyone had ever had in pvp. This forum is toxic when it comes to mature, objective conversation.
Champions Online: Be the hero you wish you could be in a better game.
Oh so Im not alone in this :biggrin: .. Its true lol, RenCen is polluted by AOPM + concentration and thats that, my theme tank(my main toon) who can solo some legendaries got destroyed in seconds by - AOPM+ Concentration build: cascade, evasive maneuvers, more cascade( i got hit with 9k cascade insane lol).. that was my fisrt encounter with a copy/paste build and since I had nvr seen it before I though " wow what a good pvp player "..well then I had a few more duels and pretty much saw what the deal was. Tbh I dont see the point in destroying my lvl 40 just to retcon it into a boring pvp build :cool:
A lot of so-called concept characters fail because some people stick so close to a concept that they feel the need to intentionally nerf their toon with weird super stats or excluding many good powers. I always choose propa (yes, propa! ^_~) super stats and alter my theme slightly or make exceptions for certain powers with a good explanation, if my character does fit a concept (I think all of my current ones do). Being a duelist doesn't necessarily mean you're good at pvp. In hero games there's no bubble that your opponent is trapped in, and there are other hostile targets you have to contend with. Trapping someone in a bubble and nerfing them so they can't see you or heal themselves doesn't take much skill at all.
Having whatever the latest flavor is doesn't mean you'll understand how to use it. I've seen people with an "elite pvp build" get killed in almost one hit by a concept character. They forget to heal themselves or what have you. This is why ppl get knocked around like billiard balls by a real tank. ^_~
^ This right here! SOOOOOO true it hurts! That's the biggest deal to me, fighting someone who can't fight back? Why not just go into the powerhouse and fight those "Dummies" in the battle room? (the ones that don't fight back) They just stand there.
Is that fun? Do you get a challenge from that?
I mean think about it. Isn't that what people are attempting to do? Smoke bomb. Geyser.
Can't see. Stunned. Blast away! Done. Repeat.
now, if you watch two "real"(no smoke bombs or geyser) melee builds go at it...you have to actually fight! Some ranged as well. They can see you, you can see them. Game on.
You have to counter and react based on what you "SEE". They have a chance. You have a chance. Comes down to skill at this point, imo. Unless, the two are aopm, geyser clones. One side will have a greater advantage then the other in most cases.
If they cant see...or react...well, it doesn't take much skill to kill them, does it.
I would say no. A non moving, seeing target is easy prey. No challenge at all. Fact.
A blinded opponent thoguh similar is not equitable to a test dummy. A player has the option to stun his/her opponent before they can use smoke. He/She may also activate a stealth power like teleport provided the opponent does not have stealth sight. Or you may also use smoke grenade as a counter which may of course leave a bad aftertaste. If you are aware of the problems melee face due to the series of attacks mention afore, then I see the challenge is in coming up with a melee build to counter that. I can empathise the pain as I used to be at the receiving end of such attacks. Solution? Try to find a build to counter it. I do have a solution but then where is the fun to see the counter being an attack of the perma MD clones.
AoPM is overpowered, everyone knows it, you can't argue. Its the most used passive because it gives high amounts of everything to yourself and teammates. That and the fact it lets you hit silly amounts of one stat while providing good stat numbers to everything else causing you to approach DRs on most things, bringing your DPS up, effectively...and defense...and support. This straight up needs a nerf, you should be getting anymore than +50 to self and to teammates. Even then its still better than most passives because it still grants everything.
Force Geyser? Are we still arguing? Its still one of the most overpowered utilities, its a 100' knock up that hits more often that not and its a NTTG with a snare advantage. It has a jokingly short cooldown letting you get the full out of MSA, not to mention the knock itself is strong enough to give you good setup to most attacks. Pre On-Alert it was the alternative to maintained holds, or the biggest compliment to one. Its half of what made melee able to compete in PvP, pre On-Alert, as much as I hate to say that. FG simply needs a range nerf, and maybe a longer cooldown/weaker knock. But I believe most utility attacks, omit lunges, should be 50 feet, not 100.
Smoke Grenade? Well...this is more debateable, what truly makes Smoke grenade OP is the binary function of it. Either it Stealthes you completely, or it doesn't. If you use R3 smoke grenade and shadowform and your opponent doesn't have perception gear, you are completely invisible and therefore breaking the game. If they do have perception gear, however...you're completely useless and suck ****. This is really more of an issue with the game's stealth mechanics itself. Stealth (like Crowd Control) deserves a much larger rework than what Nighthawk update has done. My quick fix suggestion would be to remove the entire -perception deal. make it a placate with a 45(or 60) base cooldown that lasts 5/7/10 seconds at R1/2/3.
Your analysis of the different advantages of the different powers are spot on accurate but I am cautious about nerfing. As I mentioned before in another thread, one of the main attractons of CO is the vast range of options be it costume or powers with varying functions. Admittedly, some powers seem useless, some broken but the variety is there. Some may gimp themselves for aesthetic or thematic reasons too. I also fear that the only way for "balance" given the freeform system is to simply have different skins for different power sets but they function the same. I dread the day that happens. Rather than nerf some of the powers, we may wish to buff or repair those which are broken.
As far as nerfing goes, I've noticed a pattern, there are Good nerfs and there are Bad nerfs.
Example of a bad nerf: Forum rant: "Dragon's Wrath is overpowered, my concept fire tank who doesn't dodge and refuses healing dies from it, I should not be able to die. Nerf it into the ground."
Note, player did not make any numerical arguement, player incompetantly pointed out his tank itself is horribly underpowered by mentioned "doesn't heal" and "doesn't dodge" also he has the mentality that he cannot die, even though his build is (obviously) complete garbage.
Example of a good nerf: "I've noticed an excessive use of AoPM in this game recently, I've been wondering why, so I investigated. I first noted, AoPM grants fairly large sums of stat to every stat, around +70. 70 stats to all 8 stats is a total of 70x8 560 stat total, this is almost as much as I get with all my gear, aswell as its spread out so I hit well enough into each stat to get the best of their benefits. For example I reach the soft cap of Ego, Strength, and Pre bonuses. I also noticed that this works well with stat based specs, especially intelligence, boosting the worth of each stat point combined with boosts my total stat pool is an obvious combo. Finally, because of all the stat boost, my damage increases considerably more than appropriate, partially because the stat growth effects form bonuses, aswell as bonuses from superstats themselves. Along with the free end/rec boosts making my energy return ridiculously strong. In my opinion, I find AoPM to be Overpowered, I think the numbers should be lowered from +70 to at most +50 to teammates and self. This would lower the total stat growth to 50x8 = 400 stat. This should be open to adjustment if based on the resulting change."
Now here the player went very specific, testing the power for themselves gave numbers and interactions they've noticed and instead of saying "Nerf into ground pls" They gave an opinion and stated what they felt to be an appropriate nerf.
Edit: Nevermind I figured it out after playing 1 PVP match lol it's that purple aura and yeah you are right everyone has it lol...I do not think it should be nerfed though because it allows for more freedom for hybrid builds. Also nerfing powers because of PVP is dumb anyways, since PVP is always going to be unbalanced.
Get real, and please don't cry "nerf!" blademaster's DW comparison is no different from his actual argument.
Someone is angry :rolleyes:
Its not just the PvPers, either, its ******n near everyone. So the arguement isn't "Everyone is using it, it must be OP." This is the question. "Since everyone is using AoPM...why? Is it OP? Is it just a fad?" We all know invul/defiance/stacking defensives is OP anyway, as is...most ranged spikes. Its not like they're going to nerf it, I doubt they even read this forum.
I don't have the artistic creativity of someone like yourself. My creativity is more mechanical, and applies to the numbers side of the game, with my "themes" being reversed justified around arithmetic combinations that I like. But these days the numbers side of the game is simple, and widely known to everyone. The part of character building that I enjoyed most was flattened, and made shallow.
I don't have exceptional skill at operating the game; in fact I'd rate my skill as poor. The only advantage I ever had that allowed me to PvP at the highest levels was knowing the ins and outs of the game better than most people did during 2009-2010. During that time, my superior knowledge of stats allowed me to get away with using sub-optimal builds, while still having them be viable enough.
I am a nice person, and was reasonably generous with sharing advanced knowledge when I had it, and was also reluctant to abuse that knowledge against others. I computed all the optimal stat configurations for the various buffs and passives. I spent hundreds of hours in the power house to see what the powers truly did, beyond their tooltips. I constantly pushed for more people to use INT and stealth sight. I'm lucky that many people still remember and appreciate these past actions. I don't use FoTM to help my reputation, in fact it only damages it, especially because I end up losing most of the time anyway. Good thing I don't care about winning, or score. I just want to run around and push buttons.
Clone, back to the kitchen, you, I don't get why you feel threatened. Won't you just jump on whatever will rule PvP next when AoPM ever gets taken care of and keep attempting to inflate your ego and try to leave a mark in this game anyways?
AoPM give endurance and recovery, because it you don't need take this worst stats with super stat to use high cost powers. The real problem here is MSA, MSA raise very easy your energy to full.
Nerf MSA and our problems end.
@becca_black
Interesting direction of your rage. I wonder why? Why I should care. You seem to have a shattered ego, the way you constantly try to start fights on forums with me. Being rude is your only mastery. Class is something you are lacking.
We *just* got a form review. I'd rather not see them get re-nerfed.
RIP Caine
Wait, why are people raging again?
Is it really AoPM or the fact that in order to be competitive, you must build a certain way?
What needs to happen is that the lower performing abilities need to be brought in line with the "OP" abilities.
This is a game about super heroes not super wimps. :biggrin:
I want to be able to make a concept char that does 21k spikes.
I want to be able to use my concept char while aggro-ing everything in nemcon.
The problem isn't AoPM. The problems are all the under-performing powers.
@Scrizz :biggrin:
Not that it's likely to happen but sometimes I wonder if many powers should get two versions of effect like Crippling Challenge does, one for PvE one for PvP
Otherwise PvP will keep f-ing up otherwise good PvE powers and good PvE powers will keep f-ing up PvP
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
It seems a good idea on paper. But in practice it simply divides builds further and further apart.
As it is, you all but get lambasted for taking a concept build into PVP. You divide the powers youll end up with cases where folks go..."How come my perfectly viable build suddenly sucks in PVP?" Or you simply distill PVP further into proven copycat builds.
I dont like it when PVP nerfs effect my PVE game anymore then anyone else. But Im honestly not sure if further separation of the powers is going to produce a worse fix then the problem.
Well what we're doing now certainly isn't working. I've seen this FotM mess go round for the entire time the games been live.
I've proposed, mostly in jest, a PvP power-set with a large set of generic powers so the balance crap can stop hurting the core game, PvE.
Frankly I'm sick of PvP messing up PvE powers and it needs to stop. I believe PvP is a good part of the game, but a secondary one. This isn't a PvP centered game and we're just goign to have to live with that.. .somehow.
Here we are now going to the West Side
Weapons in hand as we go for a ride
Some may come and some may stay
Watching out for a sunny day
Where there's love and darkness and my sidearm
In game as @forgemccain
Ego storm was "broken" for long before I started from what I've read of past threads. The problem is how they blanketed it to all holds and reduced their general effectiveness. 50ft range is usually more than enough penalty as far as pvp goes.
Well let me educate you, I fancy dropping random comments here and there on which noone will ever care about, the only one who does is... you, don't try to include fake cynism of accusate my nonexistant rage you barely have a clue about the use of to answer to me whenever you're deeply upset for being put back where you belong and not wherever you dream to be (which provocates one hell of a laugh by the way for all your desperate attempts including the very threads you made). I'm never rude to 2nd degree people and anyone who knows what's at stake in this game, which is for now, absolutely nothing. I don't judge people because they use Single Blade and not AoPM ruin or whatever unevolved form of it you're actually using.
Get your feet back on earth, stop being an asshat, swallow that non-existant pride along with your stuck up attitude toward 'people being better than you (and that's alot) / non PvP'ers / fun peeps'.
I know you can't live without me, that you need to win that war only you thought about against me as I'm only a lvl 6 silver bored of Gold time being resumed to smashing you, random people and fighting overpowered builds with an overpowered build, I'm not masochist enough to camp the Hero Games and getting wacked with the few builds I really enjoy playing, by stuck up people like you, though these days, there are only a few of those as more and more get to understand the PvP feature of this game making it more relaxed, but only idiots never get to change eh? ... Idiot.
If you need to unleash all your frustration for failing to reach the heights where the few people there really marked this game, then go for it, answer me back, I'm here, don't worry. Although I'm sure you'll find enough courage to substract these facts and just insult me again to get your nonexistant ego in check but it's okay, do so, and no problems, in advance.
I'd just like to point out.. no one ever hated Ego Storm, even when it was mobile. They hate Malevolent Manifestation.
There is a CLEAR and DISTINCT difference:
Someone PLZ give Healers a place >.<
You really think a lot about me, at least looking at this long-winded thing you replied with. Lots of emotion... Way too much in fact. Your obsession with attacking me is reaching all new heights. Congratulations, you are only outdoing yourself with this.
In regards to... Whatever your insinuations are, let me say this: I play Hero Games for fun. I want to be a balancing force in free-for-all environments such as BASH where one group that usually outnumbers another group decide to pick on solely that other group for the entire duration of the match. I am the guy that pisses off both sides causing them to be forced to "work together" to take me out. I think what I do for BASH is 100% the opposite of whatever you think I am trying to achieve other than pure neutrality.
Your unending rage permanently directed at me is getting old. I don't care anymore about why you dislike me so much nor do I care if you like me or continue to put upon me any further on these forums. Whatever ?point? you have to make, I am assuming, has long since been made. You don't like me. You think I am some kind of "elitist living in a world comprised of my own imagination" but honestly, really, sincerely, I know there is absolutely a very thin & delicate PvP community that is either talking mad **** to each other, or they are using extreme build-types to battle one another and the odd in-betweener passerby gets destroyed and rages on the forums in this process. Well I am against that, I want to even the playfield. I want to not farm those new to the world of Hero Games. I want to leave the ArcheTypes alone and help the one guy getting farmed by the many.
So really, Forz, why do you persist? I don't care about you. Does that upset you?
The AoPM Malvan will win because he is tankier than the UR tank and spikier than the Night Warrior spiker, lol, not to mention he is ranged and sees through Night Warrior's pathetic stealth.
Oh and the healer will just stand there laughing as they all futilely try to kill her when they can't do anything to her.
My test in PTS is done and I have to say Night Warrior is bit OP for now. Depends on how someone build but I can't say AoPM Malvan will always win.
AoPM with Malvan can't be so tanky like as recent days cause of Recharge speed problem.
I think next stage will be the battle field of Peeper with AoPM, Stalker, and some self touching ppl. This sounds bit abnormal. xD
I'm sure one of my toon will be fixed to NW.
Nerf nerfing :P
Before holds got the massive nerf, you're right it was the combination of ego storm and the adv since it would reapply the hold but allow the original user to act. But ultimately, it was the fact that it would reapply the effect making it nearly unbreakable without a breakfree from an active offense/defense.
You, are the guy who insults everyone who doesn't talk build or PvP in a channel noone stopped caring about and taunting the lot of peeps mashing you so you could feel better about yourself. And that is merely an annoyance to anyone. So yeah, you sure piss everyone off but not in the Hero Games unfortunately, you're barely a random like me, and alot of people using an obselete overpowered build to try to be the "King of PvP" or whatever weird dream you have. It explains as much when you refuse to make videos of you not having the upper hand, you want to help people out or try to mind**** them so they believe you're kind of badass?
Second: I expected as much that you wouldn't read what I said and just blatantly insult me so there it's almost okay.
Third: You don't get to care about me but you keep insisting on insulting me with passion, it's not like you like much things anyways except yourself. I'll never understand that one. Well, keep contradicting yourself and continue, keep caring about me, I know you'll do so!
______________________
Well sorry for having the hands full with that one drooling on me but what promknight actually said is part of true, INT is one hell of an awesome stat if you know what I mean, but I don't think that splitting its awesome features and powers between END and REC would be a good idea, and it would even reinforce the use of Aura of Alphabet Soup.
I don't get it. Are you jealous for some reason? And then you say I'm the "one drooling" over you..
HahahahahaHahahahaha! :biggrin:
The only one "passionately insulting" the other here is you, over and over. Your replies are getting a bit hard to read as well, so full of rage and horrible sentence structures. If you are going to carry on being my biggest troll, at least be legible. Thanks.
:biggrin:
@Scrizz :biggrin: