Who says that Wind is only going to get one pass? And the potential there for things other than direct damage means that the set is expandable. They recently added new powers to Gadgeteer; no reason they can't do the same for Wind.
And personally, I prefer a few power sets with broadly-defined powers to many power sets with narrowly-defined powers. The fewer boundaries you have to cross when mixing and matching, the easier it is to mix and match.
Look at how many passes Ice or Munitions or Archery have gotten.
They got token stuff added to them in F2P, then aren't even on the list to be looked at for the next year.
I'd imagine Wind, when introduced now, won't get looked at again til after all the existing passes and Munitions/Archery/Ice are looked at.
So, yeah. I'm not saying it won't get a pass. I'm saying it won't get a pass in at least the next two years, so I'd rather it be done right for now.
And given the limited Dev time, I figure they can either improve what's there, or change it to a different damage type that has no existing synergies and not have time to make the synergies it'd need to work.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, damage type != theme. The only purpose damage type even really serves in this game is to limit which buffs/debuffs interact with what powers. Just because Wind doesn't technically do Slashing damage, doesn't mean you can't pretend it does Slashing damage for the demands of your theme.
If you're building strictly by theme, you generally care more about what a power looks like than its actual mechanics, no?
Look at how many passes Ice or Munitions or Archery have gotten.
They got token stuff added to them in F2P, then aren't even on the list to be looked at for the next year.
I'd imagine Wind, when introduced now, won't get looked at again til after all the existing passes and Munitions/Archery/Ice are looked at.
So, yeah. I'm not saying it won't get a pass. I'm saying it won't get a pass in at least the next two years, so I'd rather it be done right for now.
And given the limited Dev time, I figure they can either improve what's there, or change it to a different damage type that has no existing synergies and not have time to make the synergies it'd need to work.
I'd much rather go with the former.
The next frameworks scheduled for review include 2 Slashing damage sets:
Power Armor>Celestial>Dual Blades>Claws
So we wouldn't have to wait for Munitions & Archery, and even then those are Piercing sets, not Slashing.
Now Slashing damage actually is the only damage type that has a general Form toggle in Aspect of the Bestial which doesn't distinguish between melee or ranged. The only reason people don't pick it is because there are currently no ranged Slashing powers in existance. That means if Wind is changed to Slashing Damage, it's actually a buff.
Wind powers could still be paired successfully with Force in that most of the applicable buffs effect all Physical damage types (Crushing/Slashing/Piercing) so powers like Kinetic Manipulation are still applicable.
Finally, all the MA Form powers don't actually buff Slashing, they are affecting by things like Critical Hits, charge attacks and Bleeds. So it's not really an issue. The only power that actually effects specifically Crushing is Demolish's advantage which is melee to begin with.
So changing it to Slashing is really a mechanical buff. While leaving it Crushing just makes it an mixed damage Force clone. So I'm really not understanding the current counter arguements regarding the Damage Type switch, this is the one case were it'd actually benefit a set to do so.
Something else to add is regarding powers that in direct buff powers for Knocks, the only one is Aspect of the Ethereal which is in the Supernatural set. Think about how effective a Bestial/Infernal build will be at that point with Wind powers. Much greater than with it's current Crushing damage type. Changing it to Slashing would not only be mechanically viable; it would also cater to many Ghostly themed concepts both mechanically and appropriately.
The next frameworks scheduled for review include 2 Slashing damage sets:
Power Armor>Celestial>Dual Blades>Claws
So we wouldn't have to wait for Munitions & Archery, and even then those are Piercing sets, not Slashing.
Now Slashing damage actually is the only damage type that has a general Form toggle in Aspect of the Bestial which doesn't distinguish between melee or ranged. The only reason people don't pick it is because there are currently no ranged Slashing powers in existance. That means if Wind is changed to Slashing Damage, it's actually a buff.
Wind powers could still be paired successfully with Force in that most of the applicable buffs effect all Physical damage types (Crushing/Slashing/Piercing) so powers like Kinetic Manipulation are still applicable.
Finally, all the MA Form powers don't actually buff Slashing, they are affecting by things like Critical Hits, charge attacks and Bleeds. So it's not really an issue. The only power that actually effects specifically Crushing is Demolish's advantage which is melee to begin with.
So changing it to Slashing is really a mechanical buff. While leaving it Crushing just makes it an mixed damage Force clone. So I'm really not understanding the current counter arguements regarding the Damage Type switch, this is the one case were it'd actually benefit a set to do so.
Aspect of the Bestial is hideous-enough that I don't want to do anything to even remotely encourage its use until the animation is fixed or changed.
And technically, Shuriken is ranged Slashing. It's just also buffed by melee stuff, and part of a melee set, so the issue of it being ranged doesn't come up very often.
And the MA Form powers build stacks by crits/charges/bleeds, but they buff only melee-tagged damage.
Basically...if Wind becomes Slashing damage (and Stormbringer is thus changed to buff Slashing, not Crushing):
-Wind gains the ability to benefit from Aspect of the Bestial
-Shuriken gets an additional passive to buff it besides Kinetic Manipulation and Quarry
-Wind can now be used with Bestial, Single Blade, Dual Blade, Chainsaw and Fighting Claws
- The potential synergies between Wind/Elec/Ice and Might/Heavy Weapons/Martial Arts/Force that Stormbringer would enable get removed.
I don't see that as a net positive for build variety. This is somewhat of a circular argument if viewed in a vacuum ("There are no slashing sets, so changing a set that has mixed damage types to slashing isn't a good idea"), but it takes into account the limited Dev time and the upcoming set of reviews.
If Wind becomes Slashing damage, then ranged Slashing damage will likely be ignored for quite a while ("Oh, there's a Wind set, it's covered"). And it kills potential synergies with a lot of sets. Keeping it Crushing damage kills some synergies too, but the difference there is that the sets that it can mix with using Crushing aren't nearly as self-contained as the Slashing sets.
I don't see the loss of those synergies across multiple sets being worth a token implementation of a "ranged Slashing" set. Especially since most of the Wind powers as they exist right now don't have the graphics to look like they're doing "Slashing" damage anyway.
Ranged slashing damage, at the moment, is a curiosity of the way damage types are handled. For it to be available as a fully-fledged mechanic for a broad variety of build types, it needs to be its own set. Not stapled on to a set that, in the Devs own words, was created as a collection of reskins.
I don't mean to but in but i think we all know that it is highly unlikely that the devs would make such a drastic change to wind as to change its damage type.
With wind AND earth scheduled for this month im sure that Ames hair is thinning at the thought of all the work that has to be done without having to make fundamental changes like switching the damage type of a new power set mid cycle.
you guys can argue all you want about the merits of a slashing wind set but i think we all know that wind will not be slashing regardless of how compelling an argument for it is made.
Aspect of the Bestial is hideous-enough that I don't want to do anything to even remotely encourage its use until the animation is fixed or changed.
And technically, Shuriken is ranged Slashing. It's just also buffed by melee stuff, and part of a melee set, so the issue of it being ranged doesn't come up very often.
And the MA Form powers build stacks by crits/charges/bleeds, but they buff only melee-tagged damage.
Basically...if Wind becomes Slashing damage (and Stormbringer is thus changed to buff Slashing, not Crushing):
-Wind gains the ability to benefit from Aspect of the Bestial
-Shuriken gets an additional passive to buff it besides Kinetic Manipulation and Quarry
-Wind can now be used with Bestial, Single Blade, Dual Blade, Chainsaw and Fighting Claws
- The potential synergies between Wind/Elec/Ice and Might/Heavy Weapons/Martial Arts/Force that Stormbringer would enable get removed.
I don't see that as a net positive for build variety. This is somewhat of a circular argument if viewed in a vacuum ("There are no slashing sets, so changing a set that has mixed damage types to slashing isn't a good idea"), but it takes into account the limited Dev time and the upcoming set of reviews.
If Wind becomes Slashing damage, then ranged Slashing damage will likely be ignored for quite a while ("Oh, there's a Wind set, it's covered"). And it kills potential synergies with a lot of sets. Keeping it Crushing damage kills some synergies too, but the difference there is that the sets that it can mix with using Crushing aren't nearly as self-contained as the Slashing sets.
I don't see the loss of those synergies across multiple sets being worth a token implementation of a "ranged Slashing" set. Especially since most of the Wind powers as they exist right now don't have the graphics to look like they're doing "Slashing" damage anyway.
Ranged slashing damage, at the moment, is a curiosity of the way damage types are handled. For it to be available as a fully-fledged mechanic for a broad variety of build types, it needs to be its own set. Not stapled on to a set that, in the Devs own words, was created as a collection of reskins.
I believe Shuriken is Piercing.
So, I'm hearing people don't want Aspect of the Bestial cause it looks ugly. I'm going to debunk any assumptions made that my intentions for argueing the Damage Type change are for "concept-only" purposes with that statement.
As stated MA form powers buff tagged Melee, so that doesn't discredit it not affecting Crushing builds, it just continues to reinforce that it wouldn't matter with the change.
Now here's why this arguement can be viewed in a vaccum; it's on the PTS and doesn't exist in LIVE. That means if Wind didn't ship; it would not change anything on LIVE currently. If it was changed to Slashing Damage; any pre-existing builds would not get nerfed as the set never existed prior. Any future builds concepts are really "in theory" as the powers to create those builds "technically" don't exist where it would matter. It's not like a review, that has the potential of hurting peoples pre-existing characters, it's a brand spanking new set.
Reskin or not; any changes to the set will not hurt pre-existing builds. Thus the vaccum.
Of the potential synergies; they all seem to rely on Stormbringer. None of the other powers within any of the mentioned sets are affected by the Damage type change. Which brought me to the question I asked earlier in that if Stormbringer alone; as it stands, were the only thing pushed to LIVE (no other wind powers); would it satisfy all potential build combinations that where discussed by those against the Damage Type change?
The sets it could mix with as Crushing only gain benefit by synergizing with the additional mechanics (disorient/repel/chill/negative ions) any buffs aside from Demolish>Below the Belt are either global Physical or specific to Crushing-Melee. Crushing sets not being neatly self contained has nothing to do with it's Damage Type. It has to do with things like Enrage mechanics. Any buffs they have to Crushing specifically are only for melee (again excluding Demolish>Below the Belt).
All reskined powers to date have had their damage type changed accordingly. Vile Chains; Ebon Void; Infernal Blast as well as the Particle Rifle powers. What makes an entire powerset devoted to Wind powers less significant in that it will only get the treatment of being Force power variants?
So, I'm hearing people don't want Aspect of the Bestial cause it looks ugly. I'm going to debunk any assumptions made that my intentions for argueing the Damage Type change are for "concept-only" purposes with that statement.
As stated MA form powers buff tagged Melee, so that doesn't discredit it not affecting Crushing builds, it just continues to reinforce that it wouldn't matter with the change.
Now here's why this arguement can be viewed in a vaccum; it's on the PTS and doesn't exist in LIVE. That means if Wind didn't ship; it would not change anything on LIVE currently. If it was changed to Slashing Damage; any pre-existing builds would not get nerfed as the set never existed prior. Any future builds concepts are really "in theory" as the powers to create those builds "technically" don't exist where it would matter. It's not like a review, that has the potential of hurting peoples pre-existing characters, it's a brand spanking new set.
Reskin or not; any changes to the set will not hurt pre-existing builds. Thus the vaccum.
Of the potential synergies; they all seem to rely on Stormbringer. None of the other powers within any of the mentioned sets are affected by the Damage type change. Which brought me to the question I asked earlier in that if Stormbringer alone; as it stands, were the only thing pushed to LIVE (no other wind powers); would it satisfy all potential build combinations that where discussed by those against the Damage Type change?
The sets it could mix with as Crushing only gain benefit by synergizing with the additional mechanics (disorient/repel/chill/negative ions) any buffs aside from Demolish>Below the Belt are either global Physical or specific to Crushing-Melee.
All reskined powers to date have had their damage type changed accordingly. Vile Chains; Ebon Void; Infernal Blast as well as the Particle Rifle powers. What makes an entire powerset devoted to Wind powers less significant in that it will only get the treatment of being Force power variants?
You're right, Shuriken is Piercing. It's bleeds that I was thinking of that do Slashing damage, but I'm not sure if they're tagged as ranged or melee.
Pushing Stormbringer to Live right now, as-is, and then changing Wind's damage type to Slashing would either require them to make another passive for Wind, or change Stormbringer to be all physical damage. Or have the situation of a set's passive not buffing all of its damage types. None of which I think they're going to do.
As for your last comment...this is the first full powerset we've had where the devs said it was specifically intended as a collection of reskinned powers.
It seems like I'm arguing to keep Wind/Stormbringer Crushing damage because it's easier (time spent changing it to Slashing damage takes time away from adding advantages and other stuff) and because I think that the Wind powers we currently have don't fit well with Slashing from an animation PoV; and you're arguing to change it to Slashing damage because we don't have a ranged Slashing damage set and because, as Slashing, it could get an additional damage buff by adding in AotB. Is that correct?
I'd actually like to see most of the crushing damage in wind changed to sonic damage. It puts in synergies, it's actually fairly reasonable (sound is basically about air pressure...), and there's already lots of crushing attacks out there.
I'd actually like to see most of the crushing damage in wind changed to sonic damage. It puts in synergies, it's actually fairly reasonable (sound is basically about air pressure...), and there's already lots of crushing attacks out there.
So change the "Electric" damage buff of Stormbringer to "all Energy damage"?
I still think it adds the most to the game overall by remaining Crushing, as most of the existing sonic attacks are all technological in nature.
Crushing gives you the widest variety of set synergies, and most of it's stuff that can't be equally buffed without going Enrage.
I don't expect very much from Wind attacks synergizing with other sets because it is specifically mentioned as a collection of reskins. But Stormbringer opens a lot of doors for a lot of different builds, and that'd be lost if it switches away from Crushing/Cold/Electric.
Your last few posts are becoming disparate because they offer up misinformation to fuel your point. You're talking about the "triggering events" on certain powers (aspects, forms) as if those triggers are what are being buffed, which is untrue. All of the aspect-type powers buff a specific damage type unilaterally, regardless of melee or ranged, not only Aspect of the Bestial, which you seem to have tunnel-visioned on. Mental Discipline buffs all Ego damage, Infernal Aspect buffs all Toxic damage. These are not unique or new.
You also seem to be implying/assuming that other debuffs will not function for Wind as it stand either, which puzzles me. For example, Demolish debuffs resistance to ALL Crushing damage, not just melee. Fire Snake also debuffs all elemental damage, giving a boost to the Cold damage attached to Wind.
Really, all I see in the argument to make Wind slashing damage is "it would be cool and we don't have a ranged slashing damage set yet!" Whereas the current implementation allows Wind to combine with appropriately thematic sets seamlessly. Changing the damage type to Slashing makes it just as clunky as trying to combine disparate types now. You say that this is acceptable because nothing changes on Live, the synergies remain incompatible. I consider this unacceptable because it equates to waste in the open power system. You ask if Stormbringer is the solution, and I say it is not, it is only a piece of the puzzle.
The current implementation gives the best range of out-of-set synergy options. What you're arguing for is a lot of work for very little actual benefit. I say a lot of work because, while changing the damage type might be easy, recreating all the VFX to visually communicate Slashing is extremely time consuming, and I can tell you right now it's not going to happen with everything else the CO team has going on in the background.
I still think it adds the most to the game overall by remaining Crushing, as most of the existing sonic attacks are all technological in nature.
There are very few sonic attacks in the game at all, and it means you have synergy with invocation of storm calling (a natural theme power for a wind build) and can use wind powers easily with electrical powers.
I agree with Pantagruel on this one. Force is already fine for synergies and as a whole set, it doesn't need another passive to go with it. On top of that I would hate to see Stormbringer become the next quarry, because that means a full wind build would be weaker in terms of damage than others. That sounds blunt and silly, but I mean as in raw %'s, I'd rather have an 80% boost to my wind powers than a 60% boost to powers I don't want.
You're right, Shuriken is Piercing. It's bleeds that I was thinking of that do Slashing damage, but I'm not sure if they're tagged as ranged or melee.
Pushing Stormbringer to Live right now, as-is, and then changing Wind's damage type to Slashing would either require them to make another passive for Wind, or change Stormbringer to be all physical damage. Or have the situation of a set's passive not buffing all of its damage types. None of which I think they're going to do.
No worries; thanks for answering that question; I mean't just Stormbringer as a power (ie attach it to Force/Electricity or Ice). No other Wind powers.
It seems like I'm arguing to keep Wind/Stormbringer Crushing damage because it's easier (time spent changing it to Slashing damage takes time away from adding advantages and other stuff) and because I think that the Wind powers we currently have don't fit well with Slashing from an animation PoV; and you're arguing to change it to Slashing damage because we don't have a ranged Slashing damage set and because, as Slashing, it could get an additional damage buff by adding in AotB. Is that correct?
I can understand that there's concern with risk to changing the Damage Type to development schedules though I believe any issues that could potential occur will mostly occur to spelling Slashing (or whatever) incorrectly in the transition I'm sure it's more of a repetitive task than rocket science. Note: No disrespect to the work involved; only pointing out that there are no inherent attributes or system mechanics associated with damage types. Plenty things can go wrong with just one typo.
Well, I'm arguing that there are both conceptual AND mechanical benefits to doing so with very little effect to to almost all the concieved potential pairings with Crushing power sets in terms of game balance. They could very well just change AotB to melee-Slashing only to place that point as moot. At which point the only benefit to keeping Wind as Crushing is that Demolish>Below the Belt can work well with it.
Also take Echo's Stick it was made with Wind being Slashing Damage. But then they could easily change that to Crushing and my points will be moot again.
Though as the Adantages haven't been fully developed; they're is potential to include Bleed as an optional mechanic in Wind powers. That would expand its use with other Slashing powers. There's potential to have Dual Blades to get changes to work well with Wind as it's power review is coming up. Most of those powers are named after wind phenomena so it wouldn't be a stretch to give them mechanical benefits as well.
Also Earth is most likely expected to work well with the Crushing Damage sets as it's in the Brick series. It's been stated that it'd be a Hybrid Melee/Range set though we won't know till we see it. Which also means it's likely to take advantage of Fire and Sonic effects; especially in synergizing with Might; Heavy Weapons and even Unarmed in some cases. That's "Crushing/Fire/Sonic" for a set and with Wind we'd have "Crushing/Ice/Electricity". When it comes time to look at Dual Blades and Claws; it'll likely be limited to just it's pairings with other martial arts sets and limit the Freeform aspect of this game further.
To those who think Sonic might work instead. I'm not a fan of it cause then we'd have "Crushing/Fire/Sonic" for Earth and then it'll be "Sonic/Ice/Electricity" for Wind. Mechanically there are too few of powers dealing with Sonic outside of it being Wind in that all build combinations for it would still fall in the Brick Family. I personally think they could do an awesome "Sound" set in the future that takes advantage of more power variations than just having Wind as it stands as the Sonic set. Though that being said, I'm not against the possibiltity. And feel there's a need for a Sonic Framework as well.
Something I haven't heard is options for a ranged Slashing set outside of Wind? I honestly can't think of anything that could be a full fledged set other than Wind. Any weapon throwing sets would likely be Piercing and seem like they'd just be made to cherry pick for existing builds than create brand new concepts.
Your last few posts are becoming disparate because they offer up misinformation to fuel your point. You're talking about the "triggering events" on certain powers (aspects, forms) as if those triggers are what are being buffed, which is untrue. All of the aspect-type powers buff a specific damage type unilaterally, regardless of melee or ranged, not only Aspect of the Bestial, which you seem to have tunnel-visioned on. Mental Discipline buffs all Ego damage, Infernal Aspect buffs all Toxic damage. These are not unique or new.
You also seem to be implying/assuming that other debuffs will not function for Wind as it stand either, which puzzles me. For example, Demolish debuffs resistance to ALL Crushing damage, not just melee. Fire Snake also debuffs all elemental damage, giving a boost to the Cold damage attached to Wind.
Really, all I see in the argument to make Wind slashing damage is "it would be cool and we don't have a ranged slashing damage set yet!" Whereas the current implementation allows Wind to combine with appropriately thematic sets seamlessly. Changing the damage type to Slashing makes it just as clunky as trying to combine disparate types now. You say that this is acceptable because nothing changes on Live, the synergies remain incompatible. I consider this unacceptable because it equates to waste in the open power system. You ask if Stormbringer is the solution, and I say it is not, it is only a piece of the puzzle.
The current implementation gives the best range of out-of-set synergy options. What you're arguing for is a lot of work for very little actual benefit. I say a lot of work because, while changing the damage type might be easy, recreating all the VFX to visually communicate Slashing is extremely time consuming, and I can tell you right now it's not going to happen with everything else the CO team has going on in the background.
In case no one ninja's me in time; I apologies for double posting in advance.
As I'm reading your post; it seems that I have been completely misunderstood in your reply. I've said nothing of what you state I did aside from the topics themselves. In fact, almost all of the things that I'm being quoted on in this post are almost the exact opposite of what I said.
So I implore you to take the time to re-read my arguements and ask any questions of me on any confusion or miscommunication before immediately attempting to discredit them.
Perhaps I misread what you wrote, or perhaps you did not communicate them well enough for me to understand your intent. A lot of what I read in earlier communiques appeared to be blatant falsifications.
A lot of your argument in the last post is based on speculation for what the future will bring, which, in my opinion, is foolish. We have no idea what sort of designs are going to occur for future power reviews or even earth, and desiring a change based on what "could be" implies not only changing Wind, but specifically impacting the designs coming down the line too. That's probably a little too far reaching for the scope we're looking at right now.
I'd rather have a set I know will mesh with what we already have, then have a disparate set that "could" work after additional changes to pre-existing sets. Considering how slow the framework reviews happen, I'll take the safer bet. What's the point of having Wind come out now if we'd have to wait 6 months (minimum) for it to mesh well with other sets?
Honestly, I wouldn't really mind Wind being slashing damage either way, I just think the risk involved is too great. Likewise with Sonic. I'd rather have sets built specifically for the purpose of exploiting those damage types, than having Wind retconned into a damage type that it may or may not support, at least without a great deal of extra work.
Personally, I think that wind dealing slashing damage is ridiculous conceptually. Sure, maybe things picked up in the wind might cut you if they're moving fast enough... but it's the Wind set, not the Wind-With-Debris set. However, the first time I step outside in high winds and am instantly flayed I'll come ba-.. No, nevermind
Perhaps I misread what you wrote, or perhaps you did not communicate them well enough for me to understand your intent. A lot of what I read in earlier communiques appeared to be blatant falsifications.
A lot of your argument in the last post is based on speculation for what the future will bring, which, in my opinion, is foolish. We have no idea what sort of designs are going to occur for future power reviews or even earth, and desiring a change based on what "could be" implies not only changing Wind, but specifically impacting the designs coming down the line too. That's probably a little too far reaching for the scope we're looking at right now.
I'd rather have a set I know will mesh with what we already have, then have a disparate set that "could" work after additional changes to pre-existing sets. Considering how slow the framework reviews happen, I'll take the safer bet. What's the point of having Wind come out now if we'd have to wait 6 months (minimum) for it to mesh well with other sets?
Honestly, I wouldn't really mind Wind being slashing damage either way, I just think the risk involved is too great. Likewise with Sonic. I'd rather have sets built specifically for the purpose of exploiting those damage types, than having Wind retconned into a damage type that it may or may not support, at least without a great deal of extra work.
Thanks for at least considering that it was misread. What I was implying is that after reviewing the mechanics of each selectable power in the game, as it stands on the PTS, switching the damage type actually only comes down to 2 powers being effected. It boils down to a choice between Demolish with it's advantage Below the Belt; or Aspect of the Bestial.
Everything else would not be affected by the damage type change as it either assists all Physical damage globally or is restricted to only effecting melee powers, which Wind has none. I couldn't say the same thing about Sonic as that would actually change the category of damage types it's compatible with, I also did not review the mechanics of the Piercing damage powers as the request wasn't asking for that Damage Type.
I have no say on what gets implemented in the end, I'm only attempting to plead a well researched case for my request, and I wouldn't even go through half of the effort I've just exerted in debating this if they're weren't others that feel the same way. So calling it foolish to express potential benefits down the road in order to plead a case; well... you are entitled to your opinion, but just like you disagree with mine, it goes both ways. I just don't consider calling your opinions as such.
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So going back at the comparison between those two powers it's a choice between a target debuff when performing a specific melee attack or a toggle buff that universally buffs a specific damage type.
Beyond that it boils down to Stormbringer. That's why I asked that question; if only Stormbringer released to LIVE as is; with no other Wind powers. Is that all people really wanted from this set? I was attempting to isolate what everyone who resists a damage type change was really arguing wtih.
Again, I'm not asking for it to be Particle; or Toxic or Ego Damage. That would really screw things up. And I wouldn't ask based solely on that I feel Wind should be Slashing conceptually, I gave it some thought and I reviewed the powers thoroughly with the information I have available to me. And if I saw how it could break anyone's builds; I would say to myself; "Oh that's why they made it Crushing!" and call it a day.
The only other arguement is that it would be significant amount of work that would detract from the release of the set or any other changes planned. That's valid; While I don't feel it would, I'm not the one doing the work, so I'm not one to say. Though from all the information I have available, I personally don't see it as the major change that others seem to think it is.
I also don't see myself as having Aspect of the Bestial tunnel vision as what I've been accused of. Aside from it's looks all I was looking at was from a gameplay standpoint; would I want a single target melee attack w/ the advantage of debuffing said target to Crushing damage for X seconds? Or would I want a consistant boost to my damage output regardless if I used melee or ranged powers? Even with that, Aspect is an option; it's not part of the Wind set and the set as a whole would not be balanced around AotB. If anything, development could just say, "It's crushing cause I say it's crushing; and oh...just out of spite; AotB will now only buff Melee Slashing from now on". - Which would be rubbing salt in the wound as there are no ranged Slashing powers currently.
There are very few sonic attacks in the game at all, and it means you have synergy with invocation of storm calling (a natural theme power for a wind build) and can use wind powers easily with electrical powers.
I'd go even as far as saying Cryptic should not just be considering what it would fit best with re: our existing powersets, but to have a sit down and think roughly as to what Radiation, Sonic, Bo-Staff and what other future powersets would most probably use - then allocate a new powerset to fit.
If a very rough outline and projection going forwards of frameworks and synergies could be laid down, then it would help with the larger picture of where things would fit. Its limited doing it piece-meal bit by bit and then find you are having to change superstats to even things out later on.
I'd put Wind as slashing ('cutting-winds' after all) - I know thematically they could be freezing, slashing or crushing, but seeing as though Earth has to be crushing really, then I'd go with Slashing personally.
I would have went with slashing as well for wind instead of crushing.
But that's because I would not have made Wind a re-skinned powerset.
Anyway, I have played more with a build running Resistance in Very Hard.
All my attacks were mainly wind and some utility (1 heal r2, 1 act.deff r2, 1 act.off + IDF r3)
I'm not at home so I don't remember all wind power I took.
Superstats were REC/INT with both value between 200/210 (so nothing fancy here or even remotely min/max)
**Feedback**
i didn't took gust, I really like the animation but this T0 is really useless once you're high enough (meaning lvl 14)
I didn't took wind breath, because I'm not a big fan of breath attack
I didn't took Updraft and the the hold power.
So run went smoothly the only time i was defeated was because I didn't used the heal and the act.defense.
So I had the energy builder, dust devil, squall, Typhoon, Whirlwind.
For testing purpose I took wall of Ice+Adv. and Thunderstrike.
I usually used wall of Ice + Adv. with Squall, but squall being very good on it's own it's not really needed (except that look cool).
I didn't used Thunderstrike muck being on Very hard there is a lot of dodge.
During the run I mainly used Dust devil and squall; i kept Typhoon for more challenging fight.
I felt like Whirldwind kind of underperforming as well (especially if compared to squall)
I love Dust Devil as well, i didn't took it but with superstat INT, I think it can work well with MSA
I don't know if it's possible to do it but one thing I don't like with split damage power like Typhoon is that instead of a big number we have 2 smaller. in the end it's the same but having 1 big number feel more impressive.
Also the reason it went smoothly was most of the time thanks to IDF.
**Conclusion**
What i would like to see:
- Gust being made useful and worth the power slot (i had better count to tap or partially charged Typhoon)
- A wind defensive toggle, something like IDF but only against ranged attack and only for the character using it. Of course both power should be exclusive and the energy penalty should be less for the new toggle.
The reason is that IDF was very useful, and i think a more thematic power would be nice.
- An advantage to a power to actually chatter Ice structure and consume Neg. ions
Parallel, independent evolution from two of the boards greatest minds? (or is that greatest goof-offs :rolleyes:?)
That's it, the debate is OVER. "the Storm" it is!
I've simply thought that "The Storm" was stepping on the toes of the copyrighted char "Storm"...?
I've also thought that eventually Archetypes might deliver on multiple framework concepts, and "Tornado" or "Hurricane" seem like they would be natural fits for a melee combo for that (I'm not aware of a copyright for them, at least without additional words), or might be so generally thematically useful that avoiding them seemed prudent...?
If something of the like is indeed the case (because I do also find them all otherwise more appealing than "Squall"), maybe adding something to it like "Storm Rider" or "Storm Watcher", or even the simple twist of "Windstorm" might serve?
This whole thread has gone in an interesting direction lol but I'll cast my vote. I think Stormbringer needs to STAY cold/elec/crushing because Energy Projection is already unsynergistic as it is and this passive helps bring it together a little more alongside A LOT of other builds. I think before we can argue what wind is or isn't we need to see the Earth passive (hopefully there IS one) and see what constitutes earth damage. I have the strangest hunch that it might be fire/slashing/crushing. Maybe even piercing if you consider an earth spike jetting out of the ground into your body.
I'm opposed to it being sonic quite heavily because I find that what wind does and what sound does are two very different things. Wind can throw a person, it's the movement of air molecules. Sonic is the vibration of those molecules and how that vibration bounces from one molecule to the next without the molecules actually leaving far from their original positions. These vibrations, at the right pitch, can destroy anything. Wind can't use the power of vibration to do that, wind is the power of motion. It's a terrible example but look up the "earthquake machine." Maybe that will help, it hypothetically used sound and vibrations to create an earthquake. Crushing makes a lot more sense for wind and until I see the animations revolving around super-compressed air (in blades or bullets, even discs), I'm opposed to slashing as well.
My basic reason for wanting wind to be sonic damage is because wind has a natural synergy with electrical powers (what weather character doesn't take both?), and making wind into sonic damage allows you to use energy damage buffs for both your wind and your lightning powers. In particular, it lets you use Invocation of Storm Calling (clearly a windy special effect -- affects sonic damage, does not affect crushing damage) and Electric Form (if you prefer its sfx). It also makes Energy Storm (which does particle damage) a more coherent choice.
Im in favour of wind being slashing, allowing for a wider synergy.
Most of all id like to see the while looked at and some kind of stacking repell that does some serious KB and consumes the stack. This would similate the losing battle of walking info a storm. More strength means a higher stack is needed.
Other than that, id would like wind breath to affect melee more, maybe by being a cilinder or the vind starting slightly behind you.
Hmm thinking of those repell stacks: maybe the effect could get stronger with added stacks untill the mob is knocked and the stack is consumed.
My vote is to stay crushing, in general there's already a ton of set that do slashing. There's really not a lot that do crushing, and to be honest crushing makes more since. Unless there's depris wind really doesn't do slashing at all.
Eh.. I'm in favor of Crushing damage sticking with Wind. In general, you're less worried about wind cutting you, then you are knocking you over or otherwise facilitating your immediate crushing against a hard surface of your choice.
The majority of property damage in hurricane and tornadoes (discounting stuff being knocked into other stuff) is weak structures being flattened, crumpled, or crushed outright through the force of the wind. This is also technically how things like sandblasting work - they pulverize the surface into the desired shape by bombarding it with high-speed particles. It's the same concept behind waterjets (that also commonly have an abrasive substance added into it). Both are designed to simulate the natural effects of erosion in a greatly sped up fashion - they're not so much 'cutting' any specific surface, they're pummeling a very small area with extreme force and absurd repetition until it gives. It's a similar logic process to using a gatling gun to cut down a tree. :U Cut in this instance is a bit of a misnomer.
While slashing may work for more precisely controlled wind attacks, I think that should be more left up to advantages or the like. None of the animations in game so far suggest that these are exactly 'precise' attacks, and are more just gross blasts of raw elemental power more akin to what one would see in extremely high-powered natural events (albeit on a generally smaller scale). It works in anime and other places again, mostly because those are winds manipulated to present a quasi-surface of hardened air (or because it's referencing something else entirely). And I really feel that's far too limiting an application for the general damage type.
Eh.. I'm in favor of Crushing damage sticking with Wind. In general, you're less worried about wind cutting you, then you are knocking you over or otherwise facilitating your immediate crushing against a hard surface of your choice.
The majority of property damage in hurricane and tornadoes (discounting stuff being knocked into other stuff) is weak structures being flattened, crumpled, or crushed outright through the force of the wind. This is also technically how things like sandblasting work - they pulverize the surface into the desired shape by bombarding it with high-speed particles. It's the same concept behind waterjets (that also commonly have an abrasive substance added into it). Both are designed to simulate the natural effects of erosion in a greatly sped up fashion - they're not so much 'cutting' any specific surface, they're pummeling a very small area with extreme force and absurd repetition until it gives. It's a similar logic process to using a gatling gun to cut down a tree. :U Cut in this instance is a bit of a misnomer.
While slashing may work for more precisely controlled wind attacks, I think that should be more left up to advantages or the like. None of the animations in game so far suggest that these are exactly 'precise' attacks, and are more just gross blasts of raw elemental power more akin to what one would see in extremely high-powered natural events (albeit on a generally smaller scale). It works in anime and other places again, mostly because those are winds manipulated to present a quasi-surface of hardened air (or because it's referencing something else entirely). And I really feel that's far too limiting an application for the general damage type.
Debris gets pushed away in the process of the abrassive force colliding with the flat surface area. It's kinda why most boards and such remain intact or split in two. Crushing or really Smashing requires direct non-penetrating force. All cutting tools require abrasion. The Gattling Gun example you mentioned have the bullets piercing through, and should they not. Repeated blows chip away, yes; also resulting in an abrasive force against the object. Which is why the chainsaw power makes sense as slashing rather than piercing even if the the sawblade is jabbed directly into a person. The abrasion is what cuts through. Otherwise a chainsaw is really just a glorified hammer. The sharpness of the object is to localize the area of the abrasion, but like a knife is still a club to an iron plate.
I will conceed that this is going to end up as a circular debate cause we can use the exact same evidence to describe two separate adjectives. Even when I ask a broad group of people outside this forum what they think of of Wind; Slashing or Smashing. They said Slashing. Though "can" be Crushing as it's just an adjective to describe the same action. Even Crushing isn't appropriate unless we take into account it's resulting effects.
Debris gets pushed away in the process of the abrassive force colliding with the flat surface area. It's kinda why most boards and such remain intact or split in two. Crushing or really Smashing requires direct non-penetrating force. Which is why the chainsaw power makes sense as slashing rather than piercing even if the the sawblade is jabbed directly into a person. The abrasion is what cuts through. Otherwise a chainsaw is really just a glorified hammer.
Chainsaws actually incorporate small blades in the chain to perform the cutting action, though. :U Unless you're using some real weird chainsaws out in your area, they're mostly doing damage by cutting through something, or hooking angled portions in and tearing it apart that way (generally producing a gash in the process). That's exactly why they're called... chainsaws. They're your standard saw, on a chain. Which is beside the point anyway, and I'm not even sure why you brought them up in the first place.
Your first 'physical example' isn't a good case example, either - it's a planed surface being used to do the cutting, which in order to be replicated by wind would require a similar planar surface of air. Which is a higher level of control then the animations for the current Wind power animations suggest (in animations and power FX), and similarly that of the descriptions themselves. The second one involves a lot of direct crushing/smashing as well, so I'm not really sure if you're in agreement or disagreement with my point. :U The third video from the first section with the train also demonstrates just raw, brute force smashing into things. The first video from that segment (I didn't get through the second - not sitting through 11 minutes when the first 20s suggests it's going to contain irrelevant data) also demonstrates... more direct smashing/ripping.
I will admit - I had forgotten to factor various angles of attack into the original statement, but the first video kind of supports it's not exactly 'cutting' the house apart. It's forcibly smashing into and tearing apart any surface it can latch onto. Admittedly, though, it's hard to see much of anything once the action starts there. :U
I still feel 'Crushing' better fits the damage type generally associated with wind.
EDIT: Though, I'm also fully willing to state it's just my personal subjective opinion. I may not have made that clear when attempting to provide additional data on how I formed that opinion. My bad - I'm down for discussing the bejeebus out of it, though. Sounds like a fun time!
Realistically, wind damage, to humans, occurs either by the wind picking stuff up and hurling it about (damage type depends on what gets picked up; it's frequently going to be cutting because broken glass is easy to pick up, quite damaging for its weight, and does cutting damage) or because the wind picks people up and smashes them into things (same damage type as falling, and really implies an attack that does zero damage but lots of knockback). An object that is attached to the ground or another object will be undamaged unless wind force is sufficient to break the attachment, but it's not obvious that prying damage is the same as crushing damage and it isn't really relevant to characters anyway.
A 'wind' wave sufficient to cause direct damage requires a shock wave and considerable overpressure, which is basically sonic damage.
Realistically, wind damage, to humans, occurs either by the wind picking stuff up and hurling it about (damage type depends on what gets picked up; it's frequently going to be cutting because broken glass is easy to pick up, quite damaging for its weight, and does cutting damage) or because the wind picks people up and smashes them into things (same damage type as falling, and really implies an attack that does zero damage but lots of knockback). An object that is attached to the ground or another object will be undamaged unless wind force is sufficient to break the attachment, but it's not obvious that prying damage is the same as crushing damage and it isn't really relevant to characters anyway.
Agreed. I'm assuming, however, that in general there's enough control to force rough shaping/condensing (similar to Gust or Typhoon on the PTS) to create basically a 'cannonball' of semi-solid air here. To be fair, that doesn't really happen all that much (if at all) in nature, though, and you're fully correct.
A 'wind' wave sufficient to cause direct damage requires a shock wave and considerable overpressure, which is basically sonic damage.
This, though, I think is going way too deep into semantics territory (since there it's not the thing creating the shockwave, but the shockwave itself that is producing the damage) and would require an evaluation on just exactly we're considering 'Sonic' damage to be. By that definition, it should be more in the 'Physical' range of things, but the game currently classifies it as 'Energy'. I assume that means we're more looking at the 'vibrate the heck out of things until they fall apart' aspect of things, or 'shattering sensitive things' aspect of raw air vibration. I could be wrong, though - I suppose what really matters is what the original concept behind setting up the damage types that landed it in energy. :U
A 'wind' wave sufficient to cause direct damage requires a shock wave and considerable overpressure, which is basically sonic damage.
I absolutely agree with that. However, I noticed before you were talking about Invocation and I checked the wiki, it is electrical damage. In it's current form, Stormbringer boosts Invocation. However, if you meant the debuff that Invocation causes then nvm.
I absolutely agree with that. However, I noticed before you were talking about Invocation and I checked the wiki, it is electrical damage. In it's current form, Stormbringer boosts Invocation. However, if you meant the debuff that Invocation causes then nvm.
Even then, it's adding a debuff to Energy resistance, which still buffs Electrical damage (in addition to Particle and Sonic). Assuming the wiki is correct, anyway.
Even then, it's adding a debuff to Energy resistance, which still buffs Electrical damage (in addition to Particle and Sonic). Assuming the wiki is correct, anyway.
And if you took gust then you'd be bummed cause invorcation doesn't buff that.
The point isn't regarding the passive and buffing invorcation, its about changing the rest of the powers to benefit. If it was sonic damage one could have electric form instead.
And if you took gust then you'd be bummed cause invorcation doesn't buff that.
The point isn't regarding the passive and buffing invorcation, its about changing the rest of the powers to benefit. If it was sonic damage one could have electric form instead.
Bringing up the question of why the set would need Stormbringer, outside of the buff to Cold damage? I dunno, I think the set is pretty well put together as-is, or at least as well put together thematically and mechanically as I can expect from a first-public-draft attempt at it. :U I don't think arbitrarily changing it to Sonic damage makes thematic sense (as I don't get how an 'overpressure shockwave' is anything but Crushing damage, as physics details that's exactly what that sort of thing is from both explosions and sonic booms - which is the sound associated with a direct shockwave created by air pressure changes from an object moving faster then the speed of sound, and not what actually does any of the grunt work).
Sonic weapons, both in real life and in science-fiction, do most of their damage by disruption of bodily or mechanical functions through harmonic resonance, and that's something that's generally supported through most of the powers that use them as a main damage component (Sonic Blaster, Sonic Device, and even Sonic Boom Generator which specifically states it's a concentrated sonic-energy pulse of deafening proportions as opposed to producing any actual shockwave for the most part [and it only disorients, not KBs]).
Yes, I was referring to the debuff from invocation of storm calling. In terms of physics, we've already got a bunch of TK powers inexplicably doing ego damage instead of crushing damage, making wind damage be sonic is less weird than that, and it opens up a lot of thematic synergies.
Reposting this here in the main thread, because I think it's relevant.
Originally Posted by Dr.Sage
Since this set is a reskin of Force, could we get a reskin of Protection Field with a swirling wind graphic?
Kinda like a larger version of the orbs on your hands during Squall, or the chargeup of Gust.
And then, to make me super-duper-ultra happy, make it scale off of End instead of Pre for protection value.
I'd you long time, devs!
Thoughts? I suggested not scaling on Pre due to lol-triple-bubbles. And End really need some sort of defensive option available, somewhere.
Heck to the yes! End needs some love. Plus more bubbles never hurt nobody, in fact, it protected them.
I was wanting a bubble too to give some love support side but I wasn't sure how. This works nicely.
Making Typhoon (or Gust, to give it an edge over the former) able to destroy ice structures would make perfect sense: the wind 'blast' is so strong it would tear apart those ice cages.
As for the Crushing vs Slashing damage, here's an example of what IMO the devs wanted Wind to look and act like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj_BjUZiNKs
If you're still seeing this as Slashing and not Crushing, then .....:rolleyes: (btw I just realized that combo was totally doable in the game )
To start, the crushing part of wind (the wind itself) isn't that damaging, it just pushes really hard. I mean by that, you can stand in a storm (with difficulty i agree) that pushes down trees without getting hurt, as long as there are no objects flung at you.
To me this discountts crushing dmg.
Now a sandblaster I'd most definitly type aas slashing damage: look at the surface, after blasting it: it isn't pitted because of particles hitting it hard, it displays lines; each particle cuts a little into the surface.
Anyway both crushing and slashing are more or less valid for wind,so lets look at another argument tomake a decision
The argument that it might take too much time fo the devs is a valid one, but can only answered by the devs, so lets let them answer it, and in the mean time debate wether it would benefite the gameplay.
Big question is actually with what do we want wind to synergize with, and does that increase the flexibility of the game the most.
Personally I don;t thihk wind meshes well with any crushing set other thaan force; wind and might for instance don't seem logically compatible (juggernaut with wind powers?)
Wind and slashing seems a better choice to me, wind is flexible, subtle and feels more in place with the elegance of bladed weapons.
Mechanic-wise i'm torn: stormbringer is nice, but doesn't sway me one wayor another, so what else do we have: the slashing passives and buffs would need a looking at to buff wind, but then again, slashing sets are getting a pass.
Making Typhoon (or Gust, to give it an edge over the former) able to destroy ice structures would make perfect sense: the wind 'blast' is so strong it would tear apart those ice cages.
As for the Crushing vs Slashing damage, here's an example of what IMO the devs wanted Wind to look and act like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj_BjUZiNKs
If you're still seeing this as Slashing and not Crushing, then .....:rolleyes: (btw I just realized that combo was totally doable in the game )
If you look closely toad gets some falling damage when repelled, but no more than that...
IMO: Slashing makes no sense for wind, because of the references that have been made for the cause are all about how the "wind cuts right through you"
And that's not a reference to Slashing, thats a Refernce to the Cold Damage we already have.
And lets not forget one other thing. Force, one of the sets that still after its pass isn't that great, and we get a complimentary set of skills and now you want to take it away? What the hell?
And lets not forget one other thing. Force, one of the sets that still after its pass isn't that great, and we get a complimentary set of skills and now you want to take it away? What the hell?
Outside of PFF and that silly CC bubble, what exactly is wrong with force?
Force Cascade? The archetypical OMGWTFBBQ huge attack?
Inertial Dampening Field? The mandatory defense stacking toggle?
Force Shield? With Force Sheath for one of the best blocking options?
Force Geyser? The 100' ranged knockup that makes PvPers cry in their pillows?
Kinetic Manipulation? Well, it needs a ranged slashing set to work fully~ (This is a hint: Ranged Slashing Damage would still fully work with Force, just use this passive instead of Stormbringer)
Force may not be the "best" set, but to call it "Not that great" is a gross misrepresentation.
It has an attack for nearly every situation, including unique options not available to other sets.
It has great buffs for self and team use.
It has some of the best CC options in the game, using the one form of CC that is actually effective.
It is also very fun to use and watch. (One of the sets I like to show off when I show my friends CO, mostly for the "toss enemies around like so much trash" effect)
Outside of PFF and that silly CC bubble, what exactly is wrong with force?
Force Cascade? The archetypical OMGWTFBBQ huge attack?
Inertial Dampening Field? The mandatory defense stacking toggle?
Force Shield? With Force Sheath for one of the best blocking options?
Force Geyser? The 100' ranged knockup that makes PvPers cry in their pillows?
Kinetic Manipulation? Well, it needs a ranged slashing set to work fully~ (This is a hint: Ranged Slashing Damage would still fully work with Force, just use this passive instead of Stormbringer)
Force may not be the "best" set, but to call it "Not that great" is a gross misrepresentation.
It has an attack for nearly every situation, including unique options not available to other sets.
It has great buffs for self and team use.
It has some of the best CC options in the game, using the one form of CC that is actually effective.
It is also very fun to use and watch. (One of the sets I like to show off when I show my friends CO, mostly for the "toss enemies around like so much trash" effect)
Crushing Wave is pretty bad at actually killing things (the repel gets in the way). Force Cascade is expensive and requires not using an energy form to get full effect. IDF, Force Shield and Protection Field are awesome, and Kinetic Manipulation is good, but KM works best outside of Force. Force Geyser is great in PvP but lackluster in PvE, and Force Eruption is like Geyser but worse. Force Snap is functionally useless.
Force as a buff, a passive, a block enhancer and a toggle is great. Aside from that, it's very bad at actually killing things in PvE, unless you build specifically for Force Cascade. And building specifically for Force Cascade means not using the Force Passive.
Force as a buff, a passive, a block enhancer and a toggle is great. Aside from that, it's very bad at actually killing things in PvE, unless you build specifically for Force Cascade. And building specifically for Force Cascade means not using the Force Passive.
Yeah .. Force is really one of sets i never got into. I have a lot characters with Force Shield and IDF, but never
really played one with offensive powers from force for longer.
Comments
Look at how many passes Ice or Munitions or Archery have gotten.
They got token stuff added to them in F2P, then aren't even on the list to be looked at for the next year.
I'd imagine Wind, when introduced now, won't get looked at again til after all the existing passes and Munitions/Archery/Ice are looked at.
So, yeah. I'm not saying it won't get a pass. I'm saying it won't get a pass in at least the next two years, so I'd rather it be done right for now.
And given the limited Dev time, I figure they can either improve what's there, or change it to a different damage type that has no existing synergies and not have time to make the synergies it'd need to work.
I'd much rather go with the former.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, damage type != theme. The only purpose damage type even really serves in this game is to limit which buffs/debuffs interact with what powers. Just because Wind doesn't technically do Slashing damage, doesn't mean you can't pretend it does Slashing damage for the demands of your theme.
If you're building strictly by theme, you generally care more about what a power looks like than its actual mechanics, no?
The next frameworks scheduled for review include 2 Slashing damage sets:
Power Armor>Celestial>Dual Blades>Claws
So we wouldn't have to wait for Munitions & Archery, and even then those are Piercing sets, not Slashing.
Now Slashing damage actually is the only damage type that has a general Form toggle in Aspect of the Bestial which doesn't distinguish between melee or ranged. The only reason people don't pick it is because there are currently no ranged Slashing powers in existance. That means if Wind is changed to Slashing Damage, it's actually a buff.
Wind powers could still be paired successfully with Force in that most of the applicable buffs effect all Physical damage types (Crushing/Slashing/Piercing) so powers like Kinetic Manipulation are still applicable.
Finally, all the MA Form powers don't actually buff Slashing, they are affecting by things like Critical Hits, charge attacks and Bleeds. So it's not really an issue. The only power that actually effects specifically Crushing is Demolish's advantage which is melee to begin with.
So changing it to Slashing is really a mechanical buff. While leaving it Crushing just makes it an mixed damage Force clone. So I'm really not understanding the current counter arguements regarding the Damage Type switch, this is the one case were it'd actually benefit a set to do so.
Something else to add is regarding powers that in direct buff powers for Knocks, the only one is Aspect of the Ethereal which is in the Supernatural set. Think about how effective a Bestial/Infernal build will be at that point with Wind powers. Much greater than with it's current Crushing damage type. Changing it to Slashing would not only be mechanically viable; it would also cater to many Ghostly themed concepts both mechanically and appropriately.
Aspect of the Bestial is hideous-enough that I don't want to do anything to even remotely encourage its use until the animation is fixed or changed.
And technically, Shuriken is ranged Slashing. It's just also buffed by melee stuff, and part of a melee set, so the issue of it being ranged doesn't come up very often.
And the MA Form powers build stacks by crits/charges/bleeds, but they buff only melee-tagged damage.
Basically...if Wind becomes Slashing damage (and Stormbringer is thus changed to buff Slashing, not Crushing):
-Wind gains the ability to benefit from Aspect of the Bestial
-Shuriken gets an additional passive to buff it besides Kinetic Manipulation and Quarry
-Wind can now be used with Bestial, Single Blade, Dual Blade, Chainsaw and Fighting Claws
- The potential synergies between Wind/Elec/Ice and Might/Heavy Weapons/Martial Arts/Force that Stormbringer would enable get removed.
I don't see that as a net positive for build variety. This is somewhat of a circular argument if viewed in a vacuum ("There are no slashing sets, so changing a set that has mixed damage types to slashing isn't a good idea"), but it takes into account the limited Dev time and the upcoming set of reviews.
If Wind becomes Slashing damage, then ranged Slashing damage will likely be ignored for quite a while ("Oh, there's a Wind set, it's covered"). And it kills potential synergies with a lot of sets. Keeping it Crushing damage kills some synergies too, but the difference there is that the sets that it can mix with using Crushing aren't nearly as self-contained as the Slashing sets.
I don't see the loss of those synergies across multiple sets being worth a token implementation of a "ranged Slashing" set. Especially since most of the Wind powers as they exist right now don't have the graphics to look like they're doing "Slashing" damage anyway.
Ranged slashing damage, at the moment, is a curiosity of the way damage types are handled. For it to be available as a fully-fledged mechanic for a broad variety of build types, it needs to be its own set. Not stapled on to a set that, in the Devs own words, was created as a collection of reskins.
With wind AND earth scheduled for this month im sure that Ames hair is thinning at the thought of all the work that has to be done without having to make fundamental changes like switching the damage type of a new power set mid cycle.
you guys can argue all you want about the merits of a slashing wind set but i think we all know that wind will not be slashing regardless of how compelling an argument for it is made.
/Just my 2 cents
I believe Shuriken is Piercing.
So, I'm hearing people don't want Aspect of the Bestial cause it looks ugly. I'm going to debunk any assumptions made that my intentions for argueing the Damage Type change are for "concept-only" purposes with that statement.
As stated MA form powers buff tagged Melee, so that doesn't discredit it not affecting Crushing builds, it just continues to reinforce that it wouldn't matter with the change.
Now here's why this arguement can be viewed in a vaccum; it's on the PTS and doesn't exist in LIVE. That means if Wind didn't ship; it would not change anything on LIVE currently. If it was changed to Slashing Damage; any pre-existing builds would not get nerfed as the set never existed prior. Any future builds concepts are really "in theory" as the powers to create those builds "technically" don't exist where it would matter. It's not like a review, that has the potential of hurting peoples pre-existing characters, it's a brand spanking new set.
Reskin or not; any changes to the set will not hurt pre-existing builds. Thus the vaccum.
Of the potential synergies; they all seem to rely on Stormbringer. None of the other powers within any of the mentioned sets are affected by the Damage type change. Which brought me to the question I asked earlier in that if Stormbringer alone; as it stands, were the only thing pushed to LIVE (no other wind powers); would it satisfy all potential build combinations that where discussed by those against the Damage Type change?
The sets it could mix with as Crushing only gain benefit by synergizing with the additional mechanics (disorient/repel/chill/negative ions) any buffs aside from Demolish>Below the Belt are either global Physical or specific to Crushing-Melee. Crushing sets not being neatly self contained has nothing to do with it's Damage Type. It has to do with things like Enrage mechanics. Any buffs they have to Crushing specifically are only for melee (again excluding Demolish>Below the Belt).
All reskined powers to date have had their damage type changed accordingly. Vile Chains; Ebon Void; Infernal Blast as well as the Particle Rifle powers. What makes an entire powerset devoted to Wind powers less significant in that it will only get the treatment of being Force power variants?
You're right, Shuriken is Piercing. It's bleeds that I was thinking of that do Slashing damage, but I'm not sure if they're tagged as ranged or melee.
Pushing Stormbringer to Live right now, as-is, and then changing Wind's damage type to Slashing would either require them to make another passive for Wind, or change Stormbringer to be all physical damage. Or have the situation of a set's passive not buffing all of its damage types. None of which I think they're going to do.
As for your last comment...this is the first full powerset we've had where the devs said it was specifically intended as a collection of reskinned powers.
It seems like I'm arguing to keep Wind/Stormbringer Crushing damage because it's easier (time spent changing it to Slashing damage takes time away from adding advantages and other stuff) and because I think that the Wind powers we currently have don't fit well with Slashing from an animation PoV; and you're arguing to change it to Slashing damage because we don't have a ranged Slashing damage set and because, as Slashing, it could get an additional damage buff by adding in AotB. Is that correct?
So change the "Electric" damage buff of Stormbringer to "all Energy damage"?
I still think it adds the most to the game overall by remaining Crushing, as most of the existing sonic attacks are all technological in nature.
Crushing gives you the widest variety of set synergies, and most of it's stuff that can't be equally buffed without going Enrage.
I don't expect very much from Wind attacks synergizing with other sets because it is specifically mentioned as a collection of reskins. But Stormbringer opens a lot of doors for a lot of different builds, and that'd be lost if it switches away from Crushing/Cold/Electric.
Your last few posts are becoming disparate because they offer up misinformation to fuel your point. You're talking about the "triggering events" on certain powers (aspects, forms) as if those triggers are what are being buffed, which is untrue. All of the aspect-type powers buff a specific damage type unilaterally, regardless of melee or ranged, not only Aspect of the Bestial, which you seem to have tunnel-visioned on. Mental Discipline buffs all Ego damage, Infernal Aspect buffs all Toxic damage. These are not unique or new.
You also seem to be implying/assuming that other debuffs will not function for Wind as it stand either, which puzzles me. For example, Demolish debuffs resistance to ALL Crushing damage, not just melee. Fire Snake also debuffs all elemental damage, giving a boost to the Cold damage attached to Wind.
Really, all I see in the argument to make Wind slashing damage is "it would be cool and we don't have a ranged slashing damage set yet!" Whereas the current implementation allows Wind to combine with appropriately thematic sets seamlessly. Changing the damage type to Slashing makes it just as clunky as trying to combine disparate types now. You say that this is acceptable because nothing changes on Live, the synergies remain incompatible. I consider this unacceptable because it equates to waste in the open power system. You ask if Stormbringer is the solution, and I say it is not, it is only a piece of the puzzle.
The current implementation gives the best range of out-of-set synergy options. What you're arguing for is a lot of work for very little actual benefit. I say a lot of work because, while changing the damage type might be easy, recreating all the VFX to visually communicate Slashing is extremely time consuming, and I can tell you right now it's not going to happen with everything else the CO team has going on in the background.
No worries; thanks for answering that question; I mean't just Stormbringer as a power (ie attach it to Force/Electricity or Ice). No other Wind powers.
I can understand that there's concern with risk to changing the Damage Type to development schedules though I believe any issues that could potential occur will mostly occur to spelling Slashing (or whatever) incorrectly in the transition
Well, I'm arguing that there are both conceptual AND mechanical benefits to doing so with very little effect to to almost all the concieved potential pairings with Crushing power sets in terms of game balance. They could very well just change AotB to melee-Slashing only to place that point as moot. At which point the only benefit to keeping Wind as Crushing is that Demolish>Below the Belt can work well with it.
Also take Echo's Stick it was made with Wind being Slashing Damage. But then they could easily change that to Crushing and my points will be moot again.
Though as the Adantages haven't been fully developed; they're is potential to include Bleed as an optional mechanic in Wind powers. That would expand its use with other Slashing powers. There's potential to have Dual Blades to get changes to work well with Wind as it's power review is coming up. Most of those powers are named after wind phenomena so it wouldn't be a stretch to give them mechanical benefits as well.
Also Earth is most likely expected to work well with the Crushing Damage sets as it's in the Brick series. It's been stated that it'd be a Hybrid Melee/Range set though we won't know till we see it. Which also means it's likely to take advantage of Fire and Sonic effects; especially in synergizing with Might; Heavy Weapons and even Unarmed in some cases. That's "Crushing/Fire/Sonic" for a set and with Wind we'd have "Crushing/Ice/Electricity". When it comes time to look at Dual Blades and Claws; it'll likely be limited to just it's pairings with other martial arts sets and limit the Freeform aspect of this game further.
To those who think Sonic might work instead. I'm not a fan of it cause then we'd have "Crushing/Fire/Sonic" for Earth and then it'll be "Sonic/Ice/Electricity" for Wind. Mechanically there are too few of powers dealing with Sonic outside of it being Wind in that all build combinations for it would still fall in the Brick Family. I personally think they could do an awesome "Sound" set in the future that takes advantage of more power variations than just having Wind as it stands as the Sonic set. Though that being said, I'm not against the possibiltity. And feel there's a need for a Sonic Framework as well.
Something I haven't heard is options for a ranged Slashing set outside of Wind? I honestly can't think of anything that could be a full fledged set other than Wind. Any weapon throwing sets would likely be Piercing and seem like they'd just be made to cherry pick for existing builds than create brand new concepts.
In case no one ninja's me in time; I apologies for double posting in advance.
As I'm reading your post; it seems that I have been completely misunderstood in your reply. I've said nothing of what you state I did aside from the topics themselves. In fact, almost all of the things that I'm being quoted on in this post are almost the exact opposite of what I said.
So I implore you to take the time to re-read my arguements and ask any questions of me on any confusion or miscommunication before immediately attempting to discredit them.
A lot of your argument in the last post is based on speculation for what the future will bring, which, in my opinion, is foolish. We have no idea what sort of designs are going to occur for future power reviews or even earth, and desiring a change based on what "could be" implies not only changing Wind, but specifically impacting the designs coming down the line too. That's probably a little too far reaching for the scope we're looking at right now.
I'd rather have a set I know will mesh with what we already have, then have a disparate set that "could" work after additional changes to pre-existing sets. Considering how slow the framework reviews happen, I'll take the safer bet. What's the point of having Wind come out now if we'd have to wait 6 months (minimum) for it to mesh well with other sets?
Honestly, I wouldn't really mind Wind being slashing damage either way, I just think the risk involved is too great. Likewise with Sonic. I'd rather have sets built specifically for the purpose of exploiting those damage types, than having Wind retconned into a damage type that it may or may not support, at least without a great deal of extra work.
Thanks for at least considering that it was misread. What I was implying is that after reviewing the mechanics of each selectable power in the game, as it stands on the PTS, switching the damage type actually only comes down to 2 powers being effected. It boils down to a choice between Demolish with it's advantage Below the Belt; or Aspect of the Bestial.
Everything else would not be affected by the damage type change as it either assists all Physical damage globally or is restricted to only effecting melee powers, which Wind has none. I couldn't say the same thing about Sonic as that would actually change the category of damage types it's compatible with, I also did not review the mechanics of the Piercing damage powers as the request wasn't asking for that Damage Type.
I have no say on what gets implemented in the end, I'm only attempting to plead a well researched case for my request, and I wouldn't even go through half of the effort I've just exerted in debating this if they're weren't others that feel the same way. So calling it foolish to express potential benefits down the road in order to plead a case; well... you are entitled to your opinion, but just like you disagree with mine, it goes both ways. I just don't consider calling your opinions as such.
--
So going back at the comparison between those two powers it's a choice between a target debuff when performing a specific melee attack or a toggle buff that universally buffs a specific damage type.
Beyond that it boils down to Stormbringer. That's why I asked that question; if only Stormbringer released to LIVE as is; with no other Wind powers. Is that all people really wanted from this set? I was attempting to isolate what everyone who resists a damage type change was really arguing wtih.
Again, I'm not asking for it to be Particle; or Toxic or Ego Damage. That would really screw things up. And I wouldn't ask based solely on that I feel Wind should be Slashing conceptually, I gave it some thought and I reviewed the powers thoroughly with the information I have available to me. And if I saw how it could break anyone's builds; I would say to myself; "Oh that's why they made it Crushing!" and call it a day.
The only other arguement is that it would be significant amount of work that would detract from the release of the set or any other changes planned. That's valid; While I don't feel it would, I'm not the one doing the work, so I'm not one to say. Though from all the information I have available, I personally don't see it as the major change that others seem to think it is.
I also don't see myself as having Aspect of the Bestial tunnel vision as what I've been accused of. Aside from it's looks all I was looking at was from a gameplay standpoint; would I want a single target melee attack w/ the advantage of debuffing said target to Crushing damage for X seconds? Or would I want a consistant boost to my damage output regardless if I used melee or ranged powers? Even with that, Aspect is an option; it's not part of the Wind set and the set as a whole would not be balanced around AotB. If anything, development could just say, "It's crushing cause I say it's crushing; and oh...just out of spite; AotB will now only buff Melee Slashing from now on". - Which would be rubbing salt in the wound as there are no ranged Slashing powers currently.
Parallel, independent evolution from two of the boards greatest minds? (or is that greatest goof-offs :rolleyes:?)
That's it, the debate is OVER. "the Storm" it is!
I'd go even as far as saying Cryptic should not just be considering what it would fit best with re: our existing powersets, but to have a sit down and think roughly as to what Radiation, Sonic, Bo-Staff and what other future powersets would most probably use - then allocate a new powerset to fit.
If a very rough outline and projection going forwards of frameworks and synergies could be laid down, then it would help with the larger picture of where things would fit. Its limited doing it piece-meal bit by bit and then find you are having to change superstats to even things out later on.
I'd put Wind as slashing ('cutting-winds' after all) - I know thematically they could be freezing, slashing or crushing, but seeing as though Earth has to be crushing really, then I'd go with Slashing personally.
But that's because I would not have made Wind a re-skinned powerset.
Anyway, I have played more with a build running Resistance in Very Hard.
All my attacks were mainly wind and some utility (1 heal r2, 1 act.deff r2, 1 act.off + IDF r3)
I'm not at home so I don't remember all wind power I took.
Superstats were REC/INT with both value between 200/210 (so nothing fancy here or even remotely min/max)
**Feedback**
i didn't took gust, I really like the animation but this T0 is really useless once you're high enough (meaning lvl 14)
I didn't took wind breath, because I'm not a big fan of breath attack
I didn't took Updraft and the the hold power.
So run went smoothly the only time i was defeated was because I didn't used the heal and the act.defense.
So I had the energy builder, dust devil, squall, Typhoon, Whirlwind.
For testing purpose I took wall of Ice+Adv. and Thunderstrike.
I usually used wall of Ice + Adv. with Squall, but squall being very good on it's own it's not really needed (except that look cool).
I didn't used Thunderstrike muck being on Very hard there is a lot of dodge.
During the run I mainly used Dust devil and squall; i kept Typhoon for more challenging fight.
I felt like Whirldwind kind of underperforming as well (especially if compared to squall)
I love Dust Devil as well, i didn't took it but with superstat INT, I think it can work well with MSA
I don't know if it's possible to do it but one thing I don't like with split damage power like Typhoon is that instead of a big number we have 2 smaller. in the end it's the same but having 1 big number feel more impressive.
Also the reason it went smoothly was most of the time thanks to IDF.
**Conclusion**
What i would like to see:
- Gust being made useful and worth the power slot (i had better count to tap or partially charged Typhoon)
- A wind defensive toggle, something like IDF but only against ranged attack and only for the character using it. Of course both power should be exclusive and the energy penalty should be less for the new toggle.
The reason is that IDF was very useful, and i think a more thematic power would be nice.
- An advantage to a power to actually chatter Ice structure and consume Neg. ions
I've simply thought that "The Storm" was stepping on the toes of the copyrighted char "Storm"...?
I've also thought that eventually Archetypes might deliver on multiple framework concepts, and "Tornado" or "Hurricane" seem like they would be natural fits for a melee combo for that (I'm not aware of a copyright for them, at least without additional words), or might be so generally thematically useful that avoiding them seemed prudent...?
If something of the like is indeed the case (because I do also find them all otherwise more appealing than "Squall"), maybe adding something to it like "Storm Rider" or "Storm Watcher", or even the simple twist of "Windstorm" might serve?
I'm opposed to it being sonic quite heavily because I find that what wind does and what sound does are two very different things. Wind can throw a person, it's the movement of air molecules. Sonic is the vibration of those molecules and how that vibration bounces from one molecule to the next without the molecules actually leaving far from their original positions. These vibrations, at the right pitch, can destroy anything. Wind can't use the power of vibration to do that, wind is the power of motion. It's a terrible example but look up the "earthquake machine." Maybe that will help, it hypothetically used sound and vibrations to create an earthquake. Crushing makes a lot more sense for wind and until I see the animations revolving around super-compressed air (in blades or bullets, even discs), I'm opposed to slashing as well.
Most of all id like to see the while looked at and some kind of stacking repell that does some serious KB and consumes the stack. This would similate the losing battle of walking info a storm. More strength means a higher stack is needed.
Other than that, id would like wind breath to affect melee more, maybe by being a cilinder or the vind starting slightly behind you.
Hmm thinking of those repell stacks: maybe the effect could get stronger with added stacks untill the mob is knocked and the stack is consumed.
The majority of property damage in hurricane and tornadoes (discounting stuff being knocked into other stuff) is weak structures being flattened, crumpled, or crushed outright through the force of the wind. This is also technically how things like sandblasting work - they pulverize the surface into the desired shape by bombarding it with high-speed particles. It's the same concept behind waterjets (that also commonly have an abrasive substance added into it). Both are designed to simulate the natural effects of erosion in a greatly sped up fashion - they're not so much 'cutting' any specific surface, they're pummeling a very small area with extreme force and absurd repetition until it gives. It's a similar logic process to using a gatling gun to cut down a tree. :U Cut in this instance is a bit of a misnomer.
While slashing may work for more precisely controlled wind attacks, I think that should be more left up to advantages or the like. None of the animations in game so far suggest that these are exactly 'precise' attacks, and are more just gross blasts of raw elemental power more akin to what one would see in extremely high-powered natural events (albeit on a generally smaller scale). It works in anime and other places again, mostly because those are winds manipulated to present a quasi-surface of hardened air (or because it's referencing something else entirely). And I really feel that's far too limiting an application for the general damage type.
Lots of repel, disorent, interrupt, confuse, KB, KD.
Would make an excellent debuff set.
Also, an excellent excuse for a sonic detection power that increases stealth sight.
They actually get torn apart by abrasive winds. Like so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAPnbzHvIKs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgyIU4tlIgI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYubpuIe3cw
Rather than smashed or crushed by impact:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpJTJ5OA4HU
Two good physical example of what winds do would be this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9_gJp3zF1k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfat_p-pepc
Debris gets pushed away in the process of the abrassive force colliding with the flat surface area. It's kinda why most boards and such remain intact or split in two. Crushing or really Smashing requires direct non-penetrating force. All cutting tools require abrasion. The Gattling Gun example you mentioned have the bullets piercing through, and should they not. Repeated blows chip away, yes; also resulting in an abrasive force against the object. Which is why the chainsaw power makes sense as slashing rather than piercing even if the the sawblade is jabbed directly into a person. The abrasion is what cuts through. Otherwise a chainsaw is really just a glorified hammer. The sharpness of the object is to localize the area of the abrasion, but like a knife is still a club to an iron plate.
I will conceed that this is going to end up as a circular debate cause we can use the exact same evidence to describe two separate adjectives. Even when I ask a broad group of people outside this forum what they think of of Wind; Slashing or Smashing. They said Slashing. Though "can" be Crushing as it's just an adjective to describe the same action. Even Crushing isn't appropriate unless we take into account it's resulting effects.
Chainsaws actually incorporate small blades in the chain to perform the cutting action, though. :U Unless you're using some real weird chainsaws out in your area, they're mostly doing damage by cutting through something, or hooking angled portions in and tearing it apart that way (generally producing a gash in the process). That's exactly why they're called... chainsaws. They're your standard saw, on a chain. Which is beside the point anyway, and I'm not even sure why you brought them up in the first place.
Your first 'physical example' isn't a good case example, either - it's a planed surface being used to do the cutting, which in order to be replicated by wind would require a similar planar surface of air. Which is a higher level of control then the animations for the current Wind power animations suggest (in animations and power FX), and similarly that of the descriptions themselves. The second one involves a lot of direct crushing/smashing as well, so I'm not really sure if you're in agreement or disagreement with my point. :U The third video from the first section with the train also demonstrates just raw, brute force smashing into things. The first video from that segment (I didn't get through the second - not sitting through 11 minutes when the first 20s suggests it's going to contain irrelevant data) also demonstrates... more direct smashing/ripping.
I will admit - I had forgotten to factor various angles of attack into the original statement, but the first video kind of supports it's not exactly 'cutting' the house apart. It's forcibly smashing into and tearing apart any surface it can latch onto. Admittedly, though, it's hard to see much of anything once the action starts there. :U
I still feel 'Crushing' better fits the damage type generally associated with wind.
EDIT: Though, I'm also fully willing to state it's just my personal subjective opinion. I may not have made that clear when attempting to provide additional data on how I formed that opinion. My bad - I'm down for discussing the bejeebus out of it, though.
A 'wind' wave sufficient to cause direct damage requires a shock wave and considerable overpressure, which is basically sonic damage.
Agreed. I'm assuming, however, that in general there's enough control to force rough shaping/condensing (similar to Gust or Typhoon on the PTS) to create basically a 'cannonball' of semi-solid air here. To be fair, that doesn't really happen all that much (if at all) in nature, though, and you're fully correct.
This, though, I think is going way too deep into semantics territory (since there it's not the thing creating the shockwave, but the shockwave itself that is producing the damage) and would require an evaluation on just exactly we're considering 'Sonic' damage to be. By that definition, it should be more in the 'Physical' range of things, but the game currently classifies it as 'Energy'. I assume that means we're more looking at the 'vibrate the heck out of things until they fall apart' aspect of things, or 'shattering sensitive things' aspect of raw air vibration. I could be wrong, though - I suppose what really matters is what the original concept behind setting up the damage types that landed it in energy. :U
I absolutely agree with that. However, I noticed before you were talking about Invocation and I checked the wiki, it is electrical damage. In it's current form, Stormbringer boosts Invocation. However, if you meant the debuff that Invocation causes then nvm.
Even then, it's adding a debuff to Energy resistance, which still buffs Electrical damage (in addition to Particle and Sonic). Assuming the wiki is correct, anyway.
The point isn't regarding the passive and buffing invorcation, its about changing the rest of the powers to benefit. If it was sonic damage one could have electric form instead.
Bringing up the question of why the set would need Stormbringer, outside of the buff to Cold damage? I dunno, I think the set is pretty well put together as-is, or at least as well put together thematically and mechanically as I can expect from a first-public-draft attempt at it. :U I don't think arbitrarily changing it to Sonic damage makes thematic sense (as I don't get how an 'overpressure shockwave' is anything but Crushing damage, as physics details that's exactly what that sort of thing is from both explosions and sonic booms - which is the sound associated with a direct shockwave created by air pressure changes from an object moving faster then the speed of sound, and not what actually does any of the grunt work).
Sonic weapons, both in real life and in science-fiction, do most of their damage by disruption of bodily or mechanical functions through harmonic resonance, and that's something that's generally supported through most of the powers that use them as a main damage component (Sonic Blaster, Sonic Device, and even Sonic Boom Generator which specifically states it's a concentrated sonic-energy pulse of deafening proportions as opposed to producing any actual shockwave for the most part [and it only disorients, not KBs]).
I'm not convinced here, either. :U
Thoughts? I suggested not scaling on Pre due to lol-triple-bubbles. And End really need some sort of defensive option available, somewhere.
Most AWESOME IDEA EVAR.
Heck to the yes! End needs some love. Plus more bubbles never hurt nobody, in fact, it protected them.
I was wanting a bubble too to give some love support side but I wasn't sure how. This works nicely.
As for the Crushing vs Slashing damage, here's an example of what IMO the devs wanted Wind to look and act like: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj_BjUZiNKs
If you're still seeing this as Slashing and not Crushing, then .....:rolleyes: (btw I just realized that combo was totally doable in the game
To me this discountts crushing dmg.
Now a sandblaster I'd most definitly type aas slashing damage: look at the surface, after blasting it: it isn't pitted because of particles hitting it hard, it displays lines; each particle cuts a little into the surface.
Anyway both crushing and slashing are more or less valid for wind,so lets look at another argument tomake a decision
The argument that it might take too much time fo the devs is a valid one, but can only answered by the devs, so lets let them answer it, and in the mean time debate wether it would benefite the gameplay.
Big question is actually with what do we want wind to synergize with, and does that increase the flexibility of the game the most.
Personally I don;t thihk wind meshes well with any crushing set other thaan force; wind and might for instance don't seem logically compatible (juggernaut with wind powers?)
Wind and slashing seems a better choice to me, wind is flexible, subtle and feels more in place with the elegance of bladed weapons.
Mechanic-wise i'm torn: stormbringer is nice, but doesn't sway me one wayor another, so what else do we have: the slashing passives and buffs would need a looking at to buff wind, but then again, slashing sets are getting a pass.
so...no...still dont know LOL
If you look closely toad gets some falling damage when repelled, but no more than that...
Now is DEFINITELY the time to make that happen!
YES! Please make this happen. I'm still holding off on buying that TP because it looks so off the way it currently is.
And that's not a reference to Slashing, thats a Refernce to the Cold Damage we already have.
And lets not forget one other thing. Force, one of the sets that still after its pass isn't that great, and we get a complimentary set of skills and now you want to take it away? What the hell?
Outside of PFF and that silly CC bubble, what exactly is wrong with force?
Force Cascade? The archetypical OMGWTFBBQ huge attack?
Inertial Dampening Field? The mandatory defense stacking toggle?
Force Shield? With Force Sheath for one of the best blocking options?
Force Geyser? The 100' ranged knockup that makes PvPers cry in their pillows?
Kinetic Manipulation? Well, it needs a ranged slashing set to work fully~ (This is a hint: Ranged Slashing Damage would still fully work with Force, just use this passive instead of Stormbringer)
Force may not be the "best" set, but to call it "Not that great" is a gross misrepresentation.
It has an attack for nearly every situation, including unique options not available to other sets.
It has great buffs for self and team use.
It has some of the best CC options in the game, using the one form of CC that is actually effective.
It is also very fun to use and watch. (One of the sets I like to show off when I show my friends CO, mostly for the "toss enemies around like so much trash" effect)
Crushing Wave is pretty bad at actually killing things (the repel gets in the way). Force Cascade is expensive and requires not using an energy form to get full effect. IDF, Force Shield and Protection Field are awesome, and Kinetic Manipulation is good, but KM works best outside of Force. Force Geyser is great in PvP but lackluster in PvE, and Force Eruption is like Geyser but worse. Force Snap is functionally useless.
Force as a buff, a passive, a block enhancer and a toggle is great. Aside from that, it's very bad at actually killing things in PvE, unless you build specifically for Force Cascade. And building specifically for Force Cascade means not using the Force Passive.
Yeah .. Force is really one of sets i never got into. I have a lot characters with Force Shield and IDF, but never
really played one with offensive powers from force for longer.