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Fix night warrior, fix shadow strike, fix sneak.

colonelwingcolonelwing Posts: 244 Arc User
Untie sneak and shadow strike from night warrior, make both powers require a power point. (currently they are entirely free / slapped on because the framework got rushed out.) Turn shadow strike into an ultimate, that damage wise scales with focus and tie night warrior to MA / claw powers. Currently it can be used with any power and that's not good for the balance of the game.


Thank you.
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Comments

  • chaosdrgnz43chaosdrgnz43 Posts: 1,558 Arc User
    Just wait until they Fighting Claws get their revamp. Until then, just bear with everyone using it.
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  • jellycupsowbugjellycupsowbug Posts: 353 Arc User
    Wouldn't that allow Sneak and Shadow Strike on builds with defensive or support passives? It seems like you should at least tie Sneak to Night Warrior, given that the premise of Night Warrior is stealth.

    Also, Shadow Strike and the Night Hawk/Night Avenger powers were a mistake. I sort of like them, but they're terrible.
  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,210 Arc User
    PvP = nerf “Fix” everything that kills me
  • speanozspeanoz Posts: 71 Arc User
    I am quite pleased with Night Warrior as it is. I just think that Sneak's perception visibility threshold should be much greater and think that Shadow Strike is fairly set where it is.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    would it be better, to just ask for the passives to give out ability to see stealth, like Target computer and Way of the Warrior? with adv applied or something. instead of asking for something that will only benefit you?
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,407 Arc User
    edited October 4
    Untie sneak and shadow strike from night warrior, make both powers require a power point. (currently they are entirely free / slapped on because the framework got rushed out.) Turn shadow strike into an ultimate, that damage wise scales with focus and tie night warrior to MA / claw powers. Currently it can be used with any power and that's not good for the balance of the game.


    Thank you.
    No thanks.

    1. Shadow Strike: MA has enough ultimates and one is already literally a single target attack that scales with Focus. We don't need the redundancy of another. Ultimates that scale with only one type of form buff are pretty lame anyway because they limit build creativity. Hard pass on that one.
    2. Tying Night Warrior to Claws: Frankly, this is also pretty bad. WotW already covers MA's needs quite well, and that includes Claws. It'd have to be something better than NW in order to actually incentivize claw users to choose it over WotW, and that's basically power creep. NW is actually just fine as a general-purpose passive that covers power combinations that don't fit neatly into any of the others, even without Sneak/Shadow Strike.
    3. Sneak: This would be fine as its own power, however it probably shouldn't function as it does now. Rather, it should be something like this:
    • Has a cooldown of some kind that activates once you exit stealth
    • Cannot activate while in combat by default
    • AoE threat wipe advantage that increases its cooldown, but allows it to be usable in combat
    • It would need more abilities (a mix of melee and ranged) that gain bonus damage/effects when used from stealth. Or it should probably lose that effect entirely if using the threat wipe advantage.

    (Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,769 Arc User
    edited October 4
    Make NW a Gadgeteering passive. All the powers it works with are over there already.

    Get rid of Sneak. Make all the powers that interact with sneak's stealth currently get their bonuses when you attack while out of combat.

    Get rid of Shadow Strike.

    Make it no longer affect all damage; pick a few damage types that make sense. Slashing would probably be one, not sure about the others. Maybe crushing and piercing, I dunno.
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Posts: 244 Arc User
    I replied to all of you, in a nice and polite manner.. Yet my posts seem to be mysteriously disappearing.
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Posts: 244 Arc User
    Let's try again:
    would it be better, to just ask for the passives to give out ability to see stealth, like Target computer and Way of the Warrior? with adv applied or something. instead of asking for something that will only benefit you?

    It would still take no skill to use shadow strike and it doesn't require any form of set up + deals a flat amount of damage (too easy to use). It's not being abused by everybody and their grandparents for no reason.
    speanoz wrote: »
    I am quite pleased with Night Warrior as it is. I just think that Sneak's perception visibility threshold should be much greater and think that Shadow Strike is fairly set where it is.

    Not really, it requires no set up, other than tapping sneak and is an i win button power.
    Wouldn't that allow Sneak and Shadow Strike on builds with defensive or support passives? It seems like you should at least tie Sneak to Night Warrior, given that the premise of Night Warrior is stealth.

    Also, Shadow Strike and the Night Hawk/Night Avenger powers were a mistake. I sort of like them, but they're terrible.

    I mean untie as in,make it require a power point.
  • colonelwingcolonelwing Posts: 244 Arc User
    edited October 4
    aesica wrote: »
    No thanks.

    1. Shadow Strike: MA has enough ultimates and one is already literally a single target attack that scales with Focus. We don't need the redundancy of another. Ultimates that scale with only one type of form buff are pretty lame anyway because they limit build creativity. Hard pass on that one.
    2. Tying Night Warrior to Claws: Frankly, this is also pretty bad. WotW already covers MA's needs quite well, and that includes Claws. It'd have to be something better than NW in order to actually incentivize claw users to choose it over WotW, and that's basically power creep. NW is actually just fine as a general-purpose passive that covers power combinations that don't fit neatly into any of the others, even without Sneak/Shadow Strike.
    3. Sneak: This would be fine as its own power, however it probably shouldn't function as it does now. Rather, it should be something like this:

    You realize, NW is supposed to be a passive for fighting claws, right? Currently it can be used on ranged characters and that's not really healthy for the balance of the game because ranged characters already have a huge advantage over melee characters. Regarding shadow strike, it doesn't require any form of set up and just deals a flat amount of damage. If it was an ultimate and scaled with focus, this would not be an issue. A longer cooldown would also be great, since it's usable a bit too frequently.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,769 Arc User
    You realize, NW is supposed to be a passive for fighting claws, right?

    What it is "supposed to be" is subjective, and can change at a moment's notice. Nothing about "night" or "warrior" or the combination strikes me as particularly directed towards claw-type weapons.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    Let's try again:
    would it be better, to just ask for the passives to give out ability to see stealth, like Target computer and Way of the Warrior? with adv applied or something. instead of asking for something that will only benefit you?

    It would still take no skill to use shadow strike and it doesn't require any form of set up + deals a flat amount of damage (too easy to use). It's not being abused by everybody and their grandparents for no reason.


    1. you avoid the question there
    2. this whole game don't take no skill, it a 2009-08 of a game that got alot of exploit's that the devs themselves wish they can fix...
    3. what i mention would had fix your problem like by 80%, instead of it being more of a problem for everyone else
    4. SS isn't really a problem if you got a High con build, it a norm for PVP on this game now days, you know, and know how to block, also invest in alot of Active defense helps.
    5. stealth isn't a problem lot of PVPers used MSA, so you will need intel and that reveals stealth/hidden targets, unless threat wipe is used, so ether you doing something wrong, or just trolling.


  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited October 4
    > @colonelwing said:
    > (Quote)
    >
    > You realize, NW is supposed to be a passive for fighting claws, right? Currently it can be used on ranged characters and that's not really healthy for the balance of the game because ranged characters already have a huge advantage over melee characters. Regarding shadow strike, it doesn't require any form of set up and just deals a flat amount of damage. If it was an ultimate and scaled with focus, this would not be an issue. A longer cooldown would also be great, since it's usable a bit too frequently.


    That very false info on range vs melee, especially for a glass cannon concept, melee do more damage then range, for you to say that, show you don't know how this game works.

    also like spinny said nightwarrior don't have anything to do with claw, in fact nightwarrior is a ref to the bats and the fact he use stealth, nightwarrior only for melee? with that kinda thinking why not just get rid of Freeform then? If that the case.

    Better yet, might want to consider playing a different game, that truly more skill based and, not soo cheesy? :/
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,502 Arc User
    edited October 4
    Night Warrior/Sneak/Shadow Strike is a bit problematic from a balance perspective, but it's mostly exploited by melee builds; you see the occasional ranged night warrior build because night warrior is pretty good all by itself, but you can't use shadow strike without being in melee range, and shadow strike does gain the +25% benefit from melee dps role, those most other buffs do not affect it much.

    A coherent revamp would probably split it into two powers:
    Night Warrior: offensive passive. Grants persistent minor stealth bonus (similar to shadow form).
    Sneak: toggle, grants stealth. Ends if you take damage. If you attack, grants a damage bonus and ends (there are several ways this could be done mechanically).
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    Let say this get this out and over with, hopefully, 1 if the untie stealth and shadow strike from nightwarrior, it would NOT! make it more fair for PVP or better for PVE, because tanks and healer will be able to use it, CCing a target is like the best way to Shadow strike, and a healer Crowed control can be hard to breakout,regardless how you broke out the first time, tank as anyone should know will have a fun time knowing they don't have to have 2 passives now, like, Hey! if you fail, all have to worry about is tanking a Few couple of shots, then wait for your turn again, also you can combine both! yay Freeform!

    ALSO NOTE: to my analysis you can not increase it damage by Via Forms regardless what they are, unless something special applied, like being melee passive form that give out a over amount of 20k, it works better in melee still! yay! so there really no reason to make it works for only melee. :)

    [in layman terms]: the damage stay the same no matter what unless you are complete Melee build.


    Would it be a better case for them to just remove it completely? [NO!]
    because that will just lead to them thinking it okay to just Remove powers because some peoples don't like them.

    "we remove this [Power] because a group of people say it was overperforming or not balanced"
    "we heard some people ingame saying this [Power] is "OP" we removed it for balance reasons"
    "this [Power] was removed because it was overperforming"

    Heck i wouldn't be surprised at them remove a [Power] it because it was underperforming. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    im to say is: if you give them an inch they'll may take a mile...


    if yall want a fix for this, here a small idea.... Make shadow strike 1 to 5 Feet instead of it being 10 ft it a Slit Throat Type of attack anyway, and we have to bear in mind of those Drag lag of range this game love to give out

    otherwise any other fix for this power\passive would be a waste of time. that could had been on something that way more important. :/
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,502 Arc User
    Let say this get this out and over with, hopefully, 1 if the untie stealth and shadow strike from nightwarrior, it would NOT! make it more fair for PVP or better for PVE
    The point of separating it is that it shouldn't be built into a passive. That doesn't mean additional balancing might not be needed.
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,769 Arc User
    because that will just lead to them thinking it okay to just Remove powers because some peoples don't like them.

    "we remove this [Power] because a group of people say it was overperforming or not balanced"
    "we heard some people ingame saying this [Power] is "OP" we removed it for balance reasons"
    "this [Power] was removed because it was overperforming"

    Heck i wouldn't be surprised at them remove a [Power] it because it was underperforming. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    None of this lines up with reality in any way whatsoever. They've never made any change to the game for any of these reasons, and it's unlikely they ever will.

    If they decide to remove Shadow Strike or any other power, it'll be because they determined that it's better for the makeup of the game, not because any given player or group of players said they should.
  • jellycupsowbugjellycupsowbug Posts: 353 Arc User
    That messes with the Night Avenger AT pretty hard. It's a paid AT, too. People are going to feel cheated when their major thematic powers are removed in a forced retcon, and they have to choose which other powers they have to give up to get them back. Then there is also the power tiers and progression. Which powers will get removed entirely in order to shoehorn Sneak and Shadow Strike back in?
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited October 5
    Let say this get this out and over with, hopefully, 1 if the untie stealth and shadow strike from nightwarrior, it would NOT! make it more fair for PVP or better for PVE
    The point of separating it is that it shouldn't be built into a passive. That doesn't mean additional balancing might not be needed.

    see that the problem... if it do get separated it going to be more of a headache for what reason? it going to be more problematic for people mostly in the PVP for what reason? because it shouldn't be built into a passive? is that really a bad thing? basically you saying, we don't need power that give out more then one, like no more C4 type powers, and powers with ability to change Other powers, with thinking like that it no wonder why we don't have anything interesting or unique in this game if that is the case here.

    the balance in this game as of Now is to be compare to a car on a rock.
    ZpI1l1S.jpg



  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,769 Arc User
    That messes with the Night Avenger AT pretty hard. It's a paid AT, too. People are going to feel cheated when their major thematic powers are removed in a forced retcon, and they have to choose which other powers they have to give up to get them back. Then there is also the power tiers and progression. Which powers will get removed entirely in order to shoehorn Sneak and Shadow Strike back in?

    Changing the power progression of an AT when its powers see a major update isn't unusual at all, often losing access to some powers and gaining access to new ones. The Night Avenger will see changes just like any other AT has, so I don't see why you're portraying this as some sort of disastrous outcome.
    with thinking like that it no wonder why we don't have anything interesting or unique in this game if that is the case here.

    What's so interesting about Night Warrior? It increases your damage, gives you an attack, and gives you a self-buff that makes other attacks do more damage. Yawn. There are much more interesting things than that in the game.
  • jellycupsowbugjellycupsowbug Posts: 353 Arc User
    Easy to say when you don't have to do any of the work, or take any of the abuse when it upsets players.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited October 5
    spinnytop wrote: »
    with thinking like that it no wonder why we don't have anything interesting or unique in this game if that is the case here.

    What's so interesting about Night Warrior? It increases your damage, gives you an attack, and gives you a self-buff that makes other attacks do more damage. Yawn. There are much more interesting things than that in the game.

    well...
    1. it give you ability to play as a commando, it give you ability to one shot or severely damaged a target, it's a passive of opportunity can you name one or so that like that?
    2.name me 20 interesting powers within this game that not a device.
    3. hitting the snow hard lately?
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,769 Arc User
    edited October 5
    Easy to say when you don't have to do any of the work, or take any of the abuse when it upsets players.

    Ah, so since I don't have to do any of the work or deal with the reaction of the players, I'm not allowed to make suggestions for changes? Well then, perhaps you should lead by example and start following this ideal yourself and immediately vacate the suggestions section permanently? It's not like you're doing any of the work.
    well...
    1. it give you ability to play as a commando, it give you ability to one shot or severely damaged a target, it's a passive of opportunity can you name one or so that like that?
    2.name me 20 interesting powers within this game that not a device.
    3. hitting the snow hard lately?

    1. ...play as a commando? eh? not sure what that has to do with shadow strike. Also I can one shot or severely damage a target with lots of powers in the game, and those powers aren't tied to a given passive. If being able to do a lot of damage quickly to a target makes something interesting then the game has a ton of interesting powers in it, many of which are more interesting then "Click button, does damage" Shadow Strike.

    2. Click the bottom link in my sig, every power I use in the builds in that post is at least as interesting as Night Warrior, and most of them are more interesting. There's probably more than 20.

    3. I don't ski.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Easy to say when you don't have to do any of the work, or take any of the abuse when it upsets players.

    and you do?

    Anyways, keep this in mind the next time you make a suggestion. You don't have to do any of the work or take any of the abuse when your suggestion isn't the one someone wants, so you have no right to make any sort of suggestion. Right? See ya.

    the thing is you not at risk if this game goes down or get even more hated, by the people who playing this game, for the point of this discussion, also you reply without given the Answer and give out half-hearted reply only to try justified the means vs telling how it could had work with such action was to taken in place.
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    spinnytop wrote: »
    because that will just lead to them thinking it okay to just Remove powers because some peoples don't like them.

    "we remove this [Power] because a group of people say it was overperforming or not balanced"
    "we heard some people ingame saying this [Power] is "OP" we removed it for balance reasons"
    "this [Power] was removed because it was overperforming"

    Heck i wouldn't be surprised at them remove a [Power] it because it was underperforming. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

    None of this lines up with reality in any way whatsoever. They've never made any change to the game for any of these reasons, and it's unlikely they ever will....

    I was hypothetically speaking of course BTW. Of Course it wont happen, but then again it could happen, but there's really isn't any good reason for them to listen to the playerbase if you think about like, silly ideas that will only make things worst for themselves, or ideas that just One-Sided that can backfired, that adds up in to making something more complex then it needed to be... so no they wont really remove something by Public Demands like that however, don't mean they wont do that, and said the did that for that reason, let be real you don't work for this company, you don't know how that company works, let alone within the past 2 years of changes that didn't really help much some powers like, Impressive Physique Before it got it buff [I still think it going to be underused and forgotten] and rocket launcher with the 20 second force full charge to fire, and i never knew rocket launcher need a nerf, hmm also raining lance 25 seconds same story of rocket launcher... that got to be get with Villain tokens that's alot.... wow okay... lot of good choice for that better makeup for the game, huh?

    however i understand why rocket launcher was Nerf, it was to be done to funnel players to pay for FreeForm or another AT, besides The soldier AT is free, at least it adds up that way in my head, it a free AT why not make it worst so someone else feel like they need to invest in that Freeform or so, i mean The Night Avenger is a premium, so i don't think it ever going to get a nerf, at least not Nigthwarrior at least not for the way that his topic is on about. i truly think this, and that's sad because people on the Steam starting to look like they are right... it starting to look like a pay to win\not look like you are a leech, kinda game, i guess they need that kinda money i huh?
  • mastercontrol7mastercontrol7 Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited October 11
    spinnytop wrote: »
    Easy to say when you don't have to do any of the work, or take any of the abuse when it upsets players.

    Ah, so since I don't have to do any of the work or deal with the reaction of the players, I'm not allowed to make suggestions for changes? Well then, perhaps you should lead by example and start following this ideal yourself and immediately vacate the suggestions section permanently? It's not like you're doing any of the work.

    but yet you are? and your suggestions sucks, don't have anything good to come from it, like at all...
    spinnytop wrote: »
    well...
    1. it give you ability to play as a commando, it give you ability to one shot or severely damaged a target, it's a passive of opportunity can you name one or so that like that?
    2.name me 20 interesting powers within this game that not a device.
    3. hitting the snow hard lately?

    1. ...play as a commando? eh? not sure what that has to do with shadow strike. Also I can one shot or severely damage a target with lots of powers in the game, and those powers aren't tied to a given passive. If being able to do a lot of damage quickly to a target makes something interesting then the game has a ton of interesting powers in it, many of which are more interesting then "Click button, does damage" Shadow Strike.

    "play as a commando? eh? not sure what that has to do with shadow strike."
    of course not, you don't know much about military, nor you good at reading a reply, or are you good at reading anything? you just that dumb? or you only playing dumb? anyway because i just said how i look at shadow strike at the 3rd reply, take a second read at that, instead of going bonkers over small details, that you can't even prove that is true, also those attack powers BTW that not untie to a passive could you snapshot those for me or give me the parser for them? since you already saying they can do more damage then 16k without the need of of stacking up the form, can you do that? cause a lot info on that number 1 reply got a lot of false info, also i was getting at power that can do other things with power, Again you misreading the whole subject, if you trying to be a white-knight at least do a better job at it...

    spinnytop wrote: »
    2. Click the bottom link in my sig, every power I use in the builds in that post is at least as interesting as Night Warrior, and most of them are more interesting. There's probably more than 20.

    they lame and boring they using merely one powerset type, don't have a AD , and out of date, your Munitions build is very terrible using Breaching Round, Mind the Uniform on shotgun but yet you got listen to reason on Gatling gun, your assault rifle is a single attack instead of using mow em down, yet all your Specializations is focus on Area of Effects, I don't know if i should feels sorry for you, because that is a silly build design at best, that Also only scream: "i want to be top score even if it makes it hard for me." if not just screaming Greed.

    I pass. 3o3
    spinnytop wrote: »
    3. I don't ski.

    We all know that. u3u

    Post edited by mastercontrol7 on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 6,502 Arc User
    That messes with the Night Avenger AT pretty hard.
    You'd change the power progression, but the night avenger has already had several of its powers nerfed (appropriately; Gentleman Crush was bad at power balance).
  • spinnytopspinnytop Posts: 15,769 Arc User
    they lame and boring they using merely one powerset type, don't have a AD , and out of date, your Munitions build is very terrible using Breaching Round, Mind the Uniform on shotgun but yet you got listen to reason on Gatling gun, your assault rifle is a single attack instead of using mow em down, yet all your Specializations is focus on Area of Effects, I don't know if i should feels sorry for you, because that is a silly build design at best, that Also only scream: "i want to be top score even if it makes it hard for me." if not just screaming Greed.

    RemorsefulGiddyJabiru-size_restricted.gif

    Okay then, thanks for the good laugh but I think we're done here XD
  • jellycupsowbugjellycupsowbug Posts: 353 Arc User
    That messes with the Night Avenger AT pretty hard.
    You'd change the power progression, but the night avenger has already had several of its powers nerfed (appropriately; Gentleman Crush was bad at power balance).

    In the post that you quoted I mentioned the need to change the power progression if Night Warrior is split. The post is short, so it seems strange that you would either miss that, or disregard it.

    I would like to see a change to the Night Avenger powers, but not that particular change. I don't like the current stealth-state mechanics, and I don't like Shadow Strike, or Strafing Run.

    I don't expect any change in the near future, if ever, because the changes that you mention are relatively recent.
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