Well, I'm not a UI designer, but I'm pretty sure that a character list that changes its order on its own is a really flawed concept. Especially in this game where people have like 20 characters (and quite some far beyond that) they often or occasionally log in to.
Let us move characters up and down manually or at least add a sort button which switches the list between "last logged in" and "date of character creation".
I am a UI designer, and have been doing it for 25 years, and explained exactly why this was an awful decision in the PTR thread. I hate having to pull out the Tell Other Developers Their Business Bat, but when so many players opposed the change and nobody supported it, well call me “Negan” and pass the barbed wire.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Wait.. so that means I should use one character only, because the others will be moved around in the character select when I log them in each time I play them?
Wow..what did the players do to deserve this punishment?
This also means that even if I move them back to where I want them, they will still be moved if I use any of them. That bites!
I don't remember the forums burning up about not being able to access their most played characters quickly.
As far as Defender's Training Contest, I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand, it sounds fun; however, on the other hand it seems like a *Pay to Win* contest because players who buy items to boost XP will finish before players who play the content without them. Just sayin'.
I like the 120 character slot boost, thank you for that. I still say that Lifetime Members should not have fully lost their perk of infinite character slots; if anything, it should be at least 300 or so. ALL Lifetime Perks should be above all other memberships to make Lifetime Memberships worth having and saving up for to obtain.
As far as Defender's Training Contest, I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand, it sounds fun; however, on the other hand it seems like a *Pay to Win* contest because players who buy items to boost XP will finish before players who play the content without them. Just sayin'.
It's not a contest, it's a challenge (there are no limits to how many people can do it, and other than slightly earlier access, no benefits to doing it faster as long as you beat the time limit). That said, I'm sure Cryptic will not be sad if people buy level-up packs.
Yeah this sorting change is as useless and annoying as I thought it'd be. I posted this in another thread, but figured I'd post it here as well:
This is how this sorting change should've been implemented, so it could be used as a useful sorting tool rather than a chaos grenade that only mucks everything up.
Please either revert it or make it a choice. I mean really, who thought it was necessary and useful in the first place?
Yes, please, this. If manual sorting is too hard to code, having choices and options would please everyone. People who like this change would be able to stick with this and those of us against the change, who have been far more vocal about it, could revert back. I mean, it is possible to add that UI option right? Why this could even be useful both ways. When trying to find characters you know where they are in static positions from creation date, you can go right to them based on your memory. If you're running events or something and want to know who you used at a very quick glance, this sorting would be nice.
If this wasn't a forced change called QoL, but an option, there wouldn't even be a single complaint because everyone would choose what they want. Win-win, right?
Sorry, but this new character sorting was a bad idea. If you want to make it easier for altaholics, just turn the sorting to creation date newest first would have been a much better alternative.
Can we make this guy lead dev instead of what we have???
Eww, no. I don't want to be the target of everyones hate just because they want to hate before even trying the changes. Seen that often enough with the CO community.
Anyway, now seing it in action for a bit I still thnk the sorting change was a bad idea, but it's really not *that* apocalyptic. It's annoying if you want to play random characters and when doing serial dailies you need to be careful loging into a character for something else in between, since that messes up the sequence.
Still kind of confusing as to why they did this when it was never even asked for or hinted at.
The majority of changes are things players never thought to ask for. If they only made changes players asked for this game would be an even bigger mess, lol
Characters in the select screen will now be sorted by last logged in.
Who is this change aimed to benefit? It objectively doesn't benefit long time players who play all of their characters and thus know exactly what page, and what slot, to look for; akin to someone knowing where to look for a certain scene in their favorite movie, book, or comic.
Of the changes I've witnessed in the last decade, this is objectively false.
Wow, a positive statement on these forums saying the devs actually do what the players want? We need more people like you.
It could theoretically also mean some combination of....
- he didn't see any changes
- the changes he did see were things only one player wanted while everyone else disagreed
- he thought of all changes in advance, but never actually posted them for the devs to see
After a few days with this character selection update, I can confirm that its still pretty bad. Its quite annoying just to find one particular character because of the character being lost within pages after pages of characters. The game take quite a while to load up all the character avatar, and with a combination of this update, it just makes searching a particular character frustrating. There was no need to add this change if the Created by Date was doing a fine job at it.
I only have 2 pages worth of toons so I don't expect that the new UI arrangement will bother me much. However a sorting filter would have been a better implementation by a huge degree.
Still waiting on an open / close all bags button...
That reminds me of another reason I hate this change: Inventory management is going to be a major problem now. With more mods than bank account space s lot of us have been resorting to keeping stuff on characters. I used to know where all my characters were. Now I got 13 pages to look through.
That reminds me of another reason I hate this change: Inventory management is going to be a major problem now. With more mods than bank account space s lot of us have been resorting to keeping stuff on characters. I used to know where all my characters were. Now I got 13 pages to look through.
That is actually a problem for me. I purposely have the first page full of characters with max level crafting and dedicated personal bank for certain items, like event items and mods. Now, they're all over the place.
Wow, a positive statement on these forums saying the devs actually do what the players want? We need more people like you.
The vast majority of improvements to the game (particularly QOL stuff) was either stuff directly suggested by players (either in-game or on one of several old chat channels) or stuff posted on PTS in raw form and improved in conjunction with player feedback.
The flip side to that is there have been a number of changes that ignored feedback entirely and, well, stuff like this character select change is often the result. Not always, but often enough to be disconcerting.
The feedback on this was either "don't do this" or "do it differently". That's not really useful feedback so it's no surprise it was ignored.
It's great that we finally nailed down the fact that yes, in fact, the vast majority of these changes are things that we the players asked for. Not sure why I tried to say that the majority of stuff is things we didn't ask for, glad you corrected me on that. Majority is stuff we asked for, and the rest is stuff we didn't know we wanted. And also we need a drop down menu or something that lets us pick the sorting method.
The feedback on this was either "don't do this" or "do it differently". That's not really useful feedback so it's no surprise it was ignored.
I'd say something similar to "hey don't shoot yourself in the face please, we like you not dead" is helpful feedback. At least it's helpful advice.
can't wait for spinny to arrive with their word of the month
you know it's comin
also lmao yeah people don't need to offer a completely different solution to an issue when the issue is "it works better the way it currently is", what
The feedback on this was either "don't do this" or "do it differently". That's not really useful feedback so it's no surprise it was ignored.
When you're dealing with quality of life changes, "don't do this" is useful feedback. It tells you that your idea may not actually improve quality of life, and should therefore be rethought or not done. It's less useful when the purpose of the change isn't to improve QoL, since what people claim to want is not necessarily the same as what's good for the game, but user feedback really is the best way to measure QoL.
The feedback on this was either "don't do this" or "do it differently". That's not really useful feedback ...
As someone who deals with feedback professionally for decades, "don't do this" is often the exact type of feedback you want. It's clear and concise in telling you something is unwanted. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is more than an idiom, it's often sound advice in a culture of change for the sake of change (looking directly at this login change as an example).
Hey guys, I gave the same feedback as you on PTS. We all went nuts together and forgot that saying "don't!" doesn't stop anything once it's on PTS. We all gave the same pointless feedback. Arguing with me about it is pointless, I was on your side remember? I have no reason to justify anything, I'm just pointing out what the reality of the situation is. Don't play, you guys know that's how it is too, I've seen at least some of you say it yourselves.
Everyone was just pointing out that it was stupid for you to say that we gave "useless" feedback. The fact that you (correctly) point out that it ended up being "pointless" feedback is an entirely different issue, and gets to the heart of the real problem: We give useful feedback that ends up being pointless feedback merely because nobody listens to it. We want them to listen to us.
The feedback on this was either "don't do this" or "do it differently". That's not really useful feedback so it's no surprise it was ignored.
In other words, you’re expecting customers to possess the specialized domain knowledge the developers are supposed to have learned and applied to the problem as part of their chosen career.
Well I do happen to have that domain knowledge by way of working in a closely-related industry, and I happen to have a well-worn copy of the first edition of About Face: The Essentials of User Interface Design by Alan Cooper* on a shelf directly to my left. So allow me, with apologies to the Cryptic developers who shouldn’t need to be told their jobs but are acting on poorly-considered orders from management, to call out a few of Cooper’s tips that directly apply to the situation at hand.
Never bend your interface to fit a metaphor.
No matter how cool your interface is, less of it would be better.
All idioms have practical limits.
Consistency is not necessarily a virtue.
If it’s worth asking the user, it’s worth the program remembering.
Make everything reversible.
Directly offer enough information for the user to avoid mistakes.
All of Chapters 33 and 34 of the 1st ed.
I’ll end my rant with an excerpt from Ch. 33:
On the other hand, people like to change things around to suit themselves. Even beginners, not to mention perpetual intermediates, like to put their own personal stamp on a program, changing it so that it looks or acts uniquely their own. You can see this in any office, where, even though everyone has an identical little gray cubicle, you can tell them apart by the pictures of spouses and kids, plants, favorite paintings or quotes, and Dilbert cartoons.
Actually, those pictures and cartoons are serious aids to navigation because, although they may not be permanent objects themselves, they are decorations placed on permanent objects. Decorating the permanent objects — the walls — gives them individuality without removing them. It allows you to recognize one hallway as being different from dozens of identical hallways because it is the one with the big poster of Christie Brinkley, Brad Pitt, or Opus. I use the term personalization to describe the decoration of permanent objects.
Personalization makes the places in which we work more likable and familiar. It makes them more human and pleasant to be in. The same is true of software, and giving the user the ability to decorate his personal program is good, both for fun and for practical purpose.
On the other hand, actually moving a permanent object around can really hamper navigation. If the facilities people come into your office over the weekend and rearrange all of the cubicles, Dilbert cartoons notwithstanding, finding your office again on Monday morning will be tough.
Is this an apparent contradiction? Not really. Adding decoration to permanent objects helps navigation, while moving the permanent objects hinders navigation.
Useful enough for you, Spinny?
* The book is now in its fourth edition, retitled About Face: The Essentials of Interaction Design, and has added three more contributors beside Cooper.
Choose your enemies carefully, because they will define you / Make them interesting, because in some ways they will mind you
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
In other words, you’re expecting customers to possess the specialized domain knowledge the developers are supposed to have learned and applied to the problem as part of their chosen career.
No, quite the opposite, I'm acknowledging the fact that they don't. There are quite a few people here who won't acknowledge that. I'm not one of them.
No, quite the opposite, I'm acknowledging the fact that they don't. There are quite a few people here who won't acknowledge that. I'm not one of them.
No, the problem is that you think the feedback on PTS wasn't actually valuable, as opposed to being valuable and ignored. Proper software development involves a feedback loop between developers and potential consumers, and in the case of UX, valuable feedback from consumers is basically a like/dislike statement, plus noting use cases that the new design makes better or worse.
"Don't do the thing that is on PTS" is useless. We know once it's on PTS, it's going live. Hey, I don't want it to be that way, and I'm certainly not defending it, but that's clearly how it is. Prove me wrong.
"Don't do the thing that is on PTS" is useless. We know once it's on PTS, it's going live. Hey, I don't want it to be that way, and I'm certainly not defending it, but that's clearly how it is. Prove me wrong.
Due to some issues with this lair, we are going to be temporarily disabling players from entering it. Stay tuned, it will be back up and running soon with new rewards!
Are you saying that any feedback given by customers about things on PTS is pointless? Kind of sounds like it. Why even have a PTS then (other than for players to test builds) if the Devs are going to ignore what players tell them? Just slap it on live and forget PTS entirely. This often happens anyway when things are posted on PTS on Wednesday and go live on Thursday; there is no time for any changes based on feedback at that point. Posting something to PTS a day before it goes live always feels to me like an insult since everything has already been decided and they are clearly not looking for any player feedback at that point. Why stick with the pretense then?
"Don't do the thing that is on PTS" is useless. We know once it's on PTS, it's going live. Hey, I don't want it to be that way, and I'm certainly not defending it, but that's clearly how it is. Prove me wrong.
Due to some issues with this lair, we are going to be temporarily disabling players from entering it. Stay tuned, it will be back up and running soon with new rewards!
Yeah, I remember all those people saying "Don't go live with Destroyer Factory, we hate it!".
Oh wait no I remember a bunch of people making cynical jokes about them disabling it on live because of PTS issues, because that's the thing that actually happened. So this isn't even an example of them not going live with something, this is an example of them disabling something on live, and people not liking that. Not a very good example of people getting something they don't like to not go live.
Are you saying that any feedback given by customers about things on PTS is pointless?
No. Turns out you could have just stopped after typing this question. Wouldn't have even needed to ask it if you'd read what I actually typed, which is that specifically "Don't do this" feedback is pointless. Any other questions?
Due to some issues with this lair, we are going to be temporarily disabling players from entering it. Stay tuned, it will be back up and running soon with new rewards!
Yeah, I remember all those people saying "Don't go live with Destroyer Factory, we hate it!".
Just did a solo run of the factory. Issues I found:
- Foxbat doesn't follow players sometimes.
- The big presses that squish you can be flown through while they are down. They don't have any collision on their sides.
- Dr. D resets his health randomly during the fight to 1/3 or 2/3 for no apparent reason.
- Dr. D says stuff when he hits 2/3 health, but he says it twice and the dialogue lines overlap each other.
- Everything before Dr. D is totally wimp-sauce. Total steamroll fest compared to Dr. D.
Didn't see any geometry out of place or anything, lair looks intact in regards to that.
PS - plz make boss drop SCR for lvl 40 peeps o3o you was probably gonna do that already
i mean you don't have to hate it to point out that it shouldn't go live.
When you're dealing with quality of life changes, "don't do this" is useful feedback. It tells you that your idea may not actually improve quality of life, and should therefore be rethought or not done.
i mean you don't have to hate it to point out that it shouldn't go live.
My bug report doesn't magically turn this into an example of something that didn't go to live.
Btw before you waste your time, bug reports are always useful feedback, that much should be obvious, as should be the fact that that's not what I'm referencing when I say "don't do this" comments. My linked example will give you plenty of examples of what I am talking about.
I don't want to put words in your mouth by assuming the point you're trying to make with that comment. Could you expand and explain further please with the relevant context?
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I think we can all agree that right now, most of us don't see the point behind this change nor any evidence it was something suggested QoL wise.
The fact of the matter is, that it has been implemented and there doesn't seem to be much room for negotiation on it (since I don't recall seeing any dev response on the topic so far).
Comments
I am a UI designer, and have been doing it for 25 years, and explained exactly why this was an awful decision in the PTR thread. I hate having to pull out the Tell Other Developers Their Business Bat, but when so many players opposed the change and nobody supported it, well call me “Negan” and pass the barbed wire.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
Wait.. so that means I should use one character only, because the others will be moved around in the character select when I log them in each time I play them?
Wow..what did the players do to deserve this punishment?
This also means that even if I move them back to where I want them, they will still be moved if I use any of them. That bites!
I don't remember the forums burning up about not being able to access their most played characters quickly.
As far as Defender's Training Contest, I'm on the fence about it. On the one hand, it sounds fun; however, on the other hand it seems like a *Pay to Win* contest because players who buy items to boost XP will finish before players who play the content without them. Just sayin'.
I like the 120 character slot boost, thank you for that. I still say that Lifetime Members should not have fully lost their perk of infinite character slots; if anything, it should be at least 300 or so. ALL Lifetime Perks should be above all other memberships to make Lifetime Memberships worth having and saving up for to obtain.
What is this, pedantry?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Yes, please, this. If manual sorting is too hard to code, having choices and options would please everyone. People who like this change would be able to stick with this and those of us against the change, who have been far more vocal about it, could revert back. I mean, it is possible to add that UI option right? Why this could even be useful both ways. When trying to find characters you know where they are in static positions from creation date, you can go right to them based on your memory. If you're running events or something and want to know who you used at a very quick glance, this sorting would be nice.
If this wasn't a forced change called QoL, but an option, there wouldn't even be a single complaint because everyone would choose what they want. Win-win, right?
Eww, no. I don't want to be the target of everyones hate just because they want to hate before even trying the changes. Seen that often enough with the CO community.
Anyway, now seing it in action for a bit I still thnk the sorting change was a bad idea, but it's really not *that* apocalyptic. It's annoying if you want to play random characters and when doing serial dailies you need to be careful loging into a character for something else in between, since that messes up the sequence.
I alt around a lot and it’s become an unnecessary annoyance trying to figure out who still needs dailies.
╚╗╔╝
╔╝(¯v´¯)
╚══.¸Menagerie
The majority of changes are things players never thought to ask for. If they only made changes players asked for this game would be an even bigger mess, lol
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Who is this change aimed to benefit? It objectively doesn't benefit long time players who play all of their characters and thus know exactly what page, and what slot, to look for; akin to someone knowing where to look for a certain scene in their favorite movie, book, or comic.
Of the changes I've witnessed in the last decade, this is objectively false.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
Wow, a positive statement on these forums saying the devs actually do what the players want? We need more people like you.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It could theoretically also mean some combination of....
- he didn't see any changes
- the changes he did see were things only one player wanted while everyone else disagreed
- he thought of all changes in advance, but never actually posted them for the devs to see
There we go, that is properly negative again.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Still waiting on an open / close all bags button...
The vast majority of improvements to the game (particularly QOL stuff) was either stuff directly suggested by players (either in-game or on one of several old chat channels) or stuff posted on PTS in raw form and improved in conjunction with player feedback.
The flip side to that is there have been a number of changes that ignored feedback entirely and, well, stuff like this character select change is often the result. Not always, but often enough to be disconcerting.
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
It's great that we finally nailed down the fact that yes, in fact, the vast majority of these changes are things that we the players asked for. Not sure why I tried to say that the majority of stuff is things we didn't ask for, glad you corrected me on that. Majority is stuff we asked for, and the rest is stuff we didn't know we wanted. And also we need a drop down menu or something that lets us pick the sorting method.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'd say something similar to "hey don't shoot yourself in the face please, we like you not dead" is helpful feedback. At least it's helpful advice.
can't wait for spinny to arrive with their word of the month
you know it's comin
also lmao yeah people don't need to offer a completely different solution to an issue when the issue is "it works better the way it currently is", what
are you mad libbing or something
There have been quite a number of posts with feedback that is constructive and more detailed than what you're asserting.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
As someone who deals with feedback professionally for decades, "don't do this" is often the exact type of feedback you want. It's clear and concise in telling you something is unwanted. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is more than an idiom, it's often sound advice in a culture of change for the sake of change (looking directly at this login change as an example).
My Amazon author page
How to build a freeform character...the Kenpo way
Demon Keypo's Building Guide
Freeform Builds Directory (Last updated: 04/23/2016)
Serving since September, 2009 / 65 Characters, 63 Level 40's
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
In other words, you’re expecting customers to possess the specialized domain knowledge the developers are supposed to have learned and applied to the problem as part of their chosen career.
Well I do happen to have that domain knowledge by way of working in a closely-related industry, and I happen to have a well-worn copy of the first edition of About Face: The Essentials of User Interface Design by Alan Cooper* on a shelf directly to my left. So allow me, with apologies to the Cryptic developers who shouldn’t need to be told their jobs but are acting on poorly-considered orders from management, to call out a few of Cooper’s tips that directly apply to the situation at hand.
I’ll end my rant with an excerpt from Ch. 33:
Useful enough for you, Spinny?
* The book is now in its fourth edition, retitled About Face: The Essentials of Interaction Design, and has added three more contributors beside Cooper.
They're not there in the beginning, but when your story ends / Gonna last with you longer than your friends
No, quite the opposite, I'm acknowledging the fact that they don't. There are quite a few people here who won't acknowledge that. I'm not one of them.
Considering it was mostly irrelevant to the topic, no not really. I want my 30 seconds back.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
ok.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
also
Yeah, I remember all those people saying "Don't go live with Destroyer Factory, we hate it!".
Oh wait no I remember a bunch of people making cynical jokes about them disabling it on live because of PTS issues, because that's the thing that actually happened. So this isn't even an example of them not going live with something, this is an example of them disabling something on live, and people not liking that. Not a very good example of people getting something they don't like to not go live.
No. Turns out you could have just stopped after typing this question. Wouldn't have even needed to ask it if you'd read what I actually typed, which is that specifically "Don't do this" feedback is pointless. Any other questions?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
lol
i mean you don't have to hate it to point out that it shouldn't go live.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
My bug report doesn't magically turn this into an example of something that didn't go to live.
Btw before you waste your time, bug reports are always useful feedback, that much should be obvious, as should be the fact that that's not what I'm referencing when I say "don't do this" comments. My linked example will give you plenty of examples of what I am talking about.
Sample size matters.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I don't want to put words in your mouth by assuming the point you're trying to make with that comment. Could you expand and explain further please with the relevant context?
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
WHY? Just why?
The fact of the matter is, that it has been implemented and there doesn't seem to be much room for negotiation on it (since I don't recall seeing any dev response on the topic so far).
So in conclusion...
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.