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What's the value of an offensive passive
blkjackwilliams
Posts: 256 Arc User
One of the things I'm doing is re-doing a lot of the tests I did back when I was here before. One of the tests I did was to determine how much an offensive passive was worth in DPS. Last time I did this I found offensive passives were worth between 12-24% dps depending on advantages (IE if they were bonus or base increases) and role. I wonder if this is still the case, as a lot of the small mechanics seem to be different, and I figured I'd let anyone who wants to help out get involved this time to broaden the sample sizes and build varieties.
So here's the experiment:
1. Run all parses with the same items until DPS stabilizes out as much as possible
2. There should be 5 parses done:
3. With form stacked, damage role, passive slotted
4. Form stacked, damage role, no passive
5. No form, damage role, no passive
6. Form stacked, hybrid role, damage passive
7. Form stacked, hybrid role, no passive
It will be interesting to see if different build styles get different results, or if there will be a similar size gap in effective health and effective healing as the gap in damage output.
So here's the experiment:
1. Run all parses with the same items until DPS stabilizes out as much as possible
2. There should be 5 parses done:
3. With form stacked, damage role, passive slotted
4. Form stacked, damage role, no passive
5. No form, damage role, no passive
6. Form stacked, hybrid role, damage passive
7. Form stacked, hybrid role, no passive
It will be interesting to see if different build styles get different results, or if there will be a similar size gap in effective health and effective healing as the gap in damage output.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Since most offensive passives don't add that much to: dps or survivability ( yeah, ok, +20%), these characters do fine in regular content and at the cosmics.
Of course, most of the tanks and healers have a second set of gear (usually just merc or basic blue quality) for when they are in DPS stance.
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Well no that's not technically true. You can use DPS role without a dps passive. This is relevant because, say someone has a tank character but no tanks are needed, they can hop into DPS role and deal more damage. What a dps passive contributes on its own would be important information to someone who is considering making a dual passive toon, and is deciding if they want to actually make a dual passive toon, or just a tank with dps gear who hops into dps role without a passive and use that power slot for something else.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
You can just do 2 parses: #3 and #4. Keep the stats/specs the same, keep the attack power the same, use an energy circle, use an attack power that ticks really fast so you can squeeze as many ticks of damage into each parse as possible and reduce variance between their activation.
Use an attack power that cannot crit to leave crit chance and sev variance out of the calculation if you are measuring this for a passive that doesn't boost sev and chance.
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This actually makes me hopeful. When I did the experiment before, Circa 2012, the role and passive was only worth about 24% more damage (that's where that number actually came from was the first set of tests I did way back when). Funny thing, role damage didn't actually do what it said and only gave about 1.2x damage when you swapped to it (unless you had no other buffs), and the offensive passive was only around 4% increase to damage thanks to SS damage buffs and form buffs saturating your damage buffs, causing the DR curve to kick in hard. That's why Arrowhead has Lightning reflexes, because targeting computer was bugged so much, and other offensive passives just didn't give enough damage to justify the loss of damage.
If that's not the case anymore I'm looking forward to re-testing. And you reminded me to check targeting computer. If it's fixed it should be a serious over-performer. Now I need to check to see if mini-mines is better or not.
The reason that 2, 5, and 6 exist is to show just how much offensive passives are trashed by DR, even when accounting for role.
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re: #5, as far as sustained dps goes you'll be at 8 form stacks the vast majority of the time. There is no practical reason to test this.
re: #6, role doesn't factor into DR in the bonus layer that offensive passives buff. There is no point to repeatedly testing it.
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All of the characters I bring to Cosmics can meet or exceed the requirements. Even at Dino, I know my tanks, when in "dps & no passive" role, can meet the DPS check.
Obviously, someone with a dps passive should be pumping out more.
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"Okay, you're DEAD, what do you do NEXT?"
> re: #2, in your list is just directions....not sure what you mean by "reason" for that to exist.
> re: #5, as far as sustained dps goes you'll be at 8 form stacks the vast majority of the time. There is no practical reason to test this.
> re: #6, role doesn't factor into DR in the bonus layer that offensive passives buff. There is no point to repeatedly testing it.
You're right i goofed saying 2. Shouldn't try to alt tab and post when running alerts.
As to the role bonus, it actually did used to dr to a point with bonuses, just not as much. Gentlemen crush wouldn't confirm my numbers, but it was easy enough to find.
I happen to be testing DPS stuff on PTS today so if not then I'll go ahead and figure out some numbers.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Looks like some stuff was changed in the numbers, the role bonus was 20% even, whenever the offensive passive was slotted, which is an improvement from what I saw way back. When I tested without the passive slotted it was back to 25% bonus, so cool more consistent is nice.
Damage role with passive was 1.5x more damage than the hybrid without passive, and 1.2x more damage than hybrid with the same passive.
So a lot of differences from the last time I did this, it will be interesting to keep looking.
Damage role buffs have been stabilized and don't vary anymore in the presence of other damage buffs, but are reduced to 1.2x when an offensive passive is present. The role buff is the full 1.25x damage when not using an offensive passive. Either some of the damage buff of an offensive passive is the same type as the role damage buff, or some other interaction is occurring.
Damage buffs are only being DR'd once now. I didn't notice this at first, but the global DR that made 10% effects show 9.1% and smoke grenade drop from 500% to 83% way back, isn't there anymore, so that's probably why I was seeing role plus passive damage at 1.5x hybrid damage unslotted when before I was seeing 1.24x max.
I need to check the DR curve for damage buffs now to make sure it hasn't changed, but this all looks good and has been consistent through tests, so I'm happy with it. If anyone sees anything that they can show as mistaken, I'd be happy to hear.
Arrowhead might be getting his offensive passive back
Probably because you are comparing hybrid to offense role. Those don't have the same damage bonus scaling from superstats. If you compare melee to ranged damage role you'll see exactly 25%.
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Shouldn't be that, because when I used congress of selves in hybrid and damage roles I got 25%. EDIT: Just to add, I did hybrid unslotted and damage unslotted as well, and that was 25%, so if the SS damage bonus scaling was the issue it should have been 20% then too.
What aiqa said.
Hybrid is really strong, and it doesn't seem weaker than the last time I did this test, it just seems like the DR curves were made more generous, which is one of the two things that I wanted done to make offensive passives worth it.
For tanks, just the ability to raise your damage while maintaining the use of a defensive passive and increasing your healing makes hybrid very strong. For dps only losing 25% damage for a decent increase in self healing can also be very strong. Support trade in some healing power for more damage. Every role can benefit from hybrid in some way in a variety of endgame situations. What more do you think Hybrid needs to be considered worth using for you?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I tried to reproduce your results, but I get different results.
ranged damage role
melee damage role
hybrid role
compare melee damage to ranged damage role
Conclusion
With ranged attacks the ranged damage role always gets exactly 25% higher damage than melee damage role.
compare hybrid to ranged damage role
Conclusion
The higher the additional damage bonus, the closer ranged damage role gets to 25% higher damage over hybrid role.
That makes sense. When the total damage bonus gets higher the additional damage from SS scaling from hybrid role is a smaller part. And hybrid gets a higher total damage bonus so it pushes further into DR.
passive and form in ranged damage role
passive and form in hybrid role
Conclusion
Hybrid role scales a bit worse with passives and forms.
Which again makes sense, hybrid role starts with higher damage bonus so it pushes into DR further.
I just double checked, and I was getting 1.2x exact (1026 hyb and 1267 dam) when parsing hybrid vs damage using R3 offensive passive and R3 Star barrage (10% crits for both), and 1.25x with congress of selves (with the three DoTs) hybrid vs offense.
So what I'm getting from parsed DPS is different than what the tooltip is saying I should get, but it's been consistent every time.
I was able to match your results parsing with sniper rifle (1.22x hybrid to damage; 1.25x melee to ranged), but my other parses were still the same.
Either way, I'm glad offensive passives are in a position where they do what they say they should.
Hybrid is better than tankrole for soloing, and can also be used to maintank when you're certain you'll still have enough threat to hold aggro. Hybrid is meh because that's how it's designed, it's not great at any one thing but good at a bunch of them. That's why it's good.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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Hybrid w/ def passive is great for soloing leveling content, but underperforms everything in end-game group content.
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I mean hey, #thuglyfe, you know I be supportin' dat lifestyle of soloin' in dps role Yoyoyo just click da bottom link in da sig, nowadamsayin?
It underperforms in Dino and Eido. It makes those cries of "Please stop dying" die down at Kiga, and is completely irrelevant at ape.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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That and because the defensive passive makes the snowstorms not kill you as fast.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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Exactly, I used the term "underperforming", but perhaps I should have said "suboptimal"
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That was the point of this statement? Not sure how it could be, as this statement, the one I responded to, was about Hybrid w/ def passive.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I am not seeing the problem with that. As long as you don't have to spend significant effort staying alive, higher damage options will always be better. And clearly damage roles will be doing to highest damage.
He's not saying it's a problem, he's pointing it out as a reality of the combination of hybrid and offensive passive. You've basically just repeated the point he's making.
A dpser who has consistent self-healing who is having trouble staying alive at Kiga could see some benefit from swapping into Hybrid role. His dps would drop but he would be healing Kiga less, so there would be a net benefit. Certainly better to be proactive in this way than criticize the healers, which there may not be enough of. I even have a dps who has some aoe healing and can help out if other people are having trouble staying up. It would be neat if there were more endgame encounters where doing stuff like that matters, but alas we often have enough healers.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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You would do best by doing both of these things together.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
This post is weeks old so sorry for bringing it up so late:
Hybrid is great for characters that still want to use a tank or support aura when soloing but can't do so in a DPS role. I'm mainly looking for a balanced passive or toggle. The Automaton one is wonky and others that balance range vs melee damage usually have low damage numbers because their main job is something else (CC, healing, etc).
I want something to make other than a Nightwarrior or AoPM hybrid toon that has to do one type of attack for damage and the other is just utility or theme.
Uh... isn't that backwards? Night Warrior and AoPM builds don't have that issue.
I'm not really sure what it is that you're trying to get here anyways. Is this the "I want all my attacks to have the same damage bonus" thing again?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Grind? All you have to do is select ranged and melee attacks on a character, where's the grind?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Even by non-gaming definitions that doesn't make sense, so apology not required because you're not actually doing the thing you're apologizing for.
Also if the builds are taking a lot of extra effort then that's probably more an issue of the specific builds involved. Awkward builds will play awkwardly, but mixed range/melee builds don't have to be awkard.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
But in respect of the mixed range and Melee characters... Generally players will encounter issues with optimisation unless they go down the quite limited power and stat paths which do synergise properly. While there certainly are passives to buff both sorts of damage you also tend to run into issues with roles and forms, especially with the latter tending to buff one damage type over another and having trigger conditions which are difficult to meet while using a particular attack type. It's a bit clunky.
Again, if it's clunky it's because that's the way you built it. Don't wanna drive a clunker? Don't build a clunker. Clunk clunk!
My super cool CC build and how to use it.