What's the value of an offensive passive

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

One of the things I'm doing is re-doing a lot of the tests I did back when I was here before. One of the tests I did was to determine how much an offensive passive was worth in DPS. Last time I did this I found offensive passives were worth between 12-24% dps depending on advantages (IE if they were bonus or base increases) and role. I wonder if this is still the case, as a lot of the small mechanics seem to be different, and I figured I'd let anyone who wants to help out get involved this time to broaden the sample sizes and build varieties.

So here's the experiment:

1. Run all parses with the same items until DPS stabilizes out as much as possible
2. There should be 5 parses done:
3. With form stacked, damage role, passive slotted
4. Form stacked, damage role, no passive
5. No form, damage role, no passive
6. Form stacked, hybrid role, damage passive
7. Form stacked, hybrid role, no passive

It will be interesting to see if different build styles get different results, or if there will be a similar size gap in effective health and effective healing as the gap in damage output.

spinnytop · August 2018

Yeah it's about 20%

warcanch · August 2018

I'm sure I'm not the only one, but I have a number of tanks, healers, and some that just have defensive passives cuz "theme". Additionally, like many, since most of these don't have a second passive, I have a build or 2 set to ranged or melee dps but minus any passive.

Since most offensive passives don't add that much to: dps or survivability ( yeah, ok, +20%), these characters do fine in regular content and at the cosmics.

Of course, most of the tanks and healers have a second set of gear (usually just merc or basic blue quality) for when they are in DPS stance.

pantagruel01 · August 2018

warcanch wrote: »

Since most offensive passives don't add that much to: dps or survivability ( yeah, ok, +20%), these characters do fine in regular content and at the cosmics.

They actually add about 50% to dps, because they permit you to use a dps role. Actual difference is usually larger because people with defensive passives usually slot some con instead of things that help with damage.

spinnytop · August 2018

pantagruel01 wrote: »

They actually add about 50% to dps, because they permit you to use a dps role.

Well no that's not technically true. You can use DPS role without a dps passive. This is relevant because, say someone has a tank character but no tanks are needed, they can hop into DPS role and deal more damage. What a dps passive contributes on its own would be important information to someone who is considering making a dual passive toon, and is deciding if they want to actually make a dual passive toon, or just a tank with dps gear who hops into dps role without a passive and use that power slot for something else.

kamokami · August 2018

blkjackwilliams wrote: »

2. There should be 5 parses done:
3. With form stacked, damage role, passive slotted
4. Form stacked, damage role, no passive
5. No form, damage role, no passive
6. Form stacked, hybrid role, damage passive
7. Form stacked, hybrid role, no passive

You can just do 2 parses: #3 and #4. Keep the stats/specs the same, keep the attack power the same, use an energy circle, use an attack power that ticks really fast so you can squeeze as many ticks of damage into each parse as possible and reduce variance between their activation.

Use an attack power that cannot crit to leave crit chance and sev variance out of the calculation if you are measuring this for a passive that doesn't boost sev and chance.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

pantagruel01 wrote: »

warcanch wrote: »

Since most offensive passives don't add that much to: dps or survivability ( yeah, ok, +20%), these characters do fine in regular content and at the cosmics.

They actually add about 50% to dps, because they permit you to use a dps role. Actual difference is usually larger because people with defensive passives usually slot some con instead of things that help with damage.

This actually makes me hopeful. When I did the experiment before, Circa 2012, the role and passive was only worth about 24% more damage (that's where that number actually came from was the first set of tests I did way back when). Funny thing, role damage didn't actually do what it said and only gave about 1.2x damage when you swapped to it (unless you had no other buffs), and the offensive passive was only around 4% increase to damage thanks to SS damage buffs and form buffs saturating your damage buffs, causing the DR curve to kick in hard. That's why Arrowhead has Lightning reflexes, because targeting computer was bugged so much, and other offensive passives just didn't give enough damage to justify the loss of damage.

If that's not the case anymore I'm looking forward to re-testing. And you reminded me to check targeting computer. If it's fixed it should be a serious over-performer. Now I need to check to see if mini-mines is better or not.

kamokami wrote: »

You can just do 2 parses: #3 and #4. Keep the stats/specs the same, keep the attack power the same, use an energy circle, use an attack power that ticks really fast so you can squeeze as many ticks of damage into each parse as possible and reduce variance between their activation.

Use an attack power that cannot crit to leave crit chance and sev variance out of the calculation if you are measuring this for a passive that doesn't boost sev and chance.

The reason that 2, 5, and 6 exist is to show just how much offensive passives are trashed by DR, even when accounting for role.

pantagruel01 · August 2018

If you aren't using an offensive passive that does something beyond boost damage, all you need to do is stack your form and compare tooltips. For example, on my electric build with 8 stacks, it boosted my max charge gigabolt from 6730 to 7610 (+13%)

kamokami · August 2018

blkjackwilliams wrote: »

The reason that 2, 5, and 6 exist is to show just how much offensive passives are trashed by DR, even when accounting for role.

re: #2, in your list is just directions....not sure what you mean by "reason" for that to exist.
re: #5, as far as sustained dps goes you'll be at 8 form stacks the vast majority of the time. There is no practical reason to test this.
re: #6, role doesn't factor into DR in the bonus layer that offensive passives buff. There is no point to repeatedly testing it.

warcanch · August 2018

I don't know the hard numbers of: dps passive vs no passive, in a dps role. I know I don't worry about it too much since the damage form is where the big numbers come from (if I did it correctly). Your form should be giving you +10% (very low) to 20%+ (there ya go) per stack.

All of the characters I bring to Cosmics can meet or exceed the requirements. Even at Dino, I know my tanks, when in "dps & no passive" role, can meet the DPS check.

Obviously, someone with a dps passive should be pumping out more.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

> @kamokami said:

> re: #2, in your list is just directions....not sure what you mean by "reason" for that to exist.
> re: #5, as far as sustained dps goes you'll be at 8 form stacks the vast majority of the time. There is no practical reason to test this.
> re: #6, role doesn't factor into DR in the bonus layer that offensive passives buff. There is no point to repeatedly testing it.

You're right i goofed saying 2. Shouldn't try to alt tab and post when running alerts.

As to the role bonus, it actually did used to dr to a point with bonuses, just not as much. Gentlemen crush wouldn't confirm my numbers, but it was easy enough to find.

spinnytop · August 2018

So uh... did you do the test yet? o3o

I happen to be testing DPS stuff on PTS today so if not then I'll go ahead and figure out some numbers.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

This will be a late night project for me, and im at work no, so not yet, but im doing it regardless of who else does, just thought I'd mention it to see if anyone else wants to increase the sample size

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

So I got bored an did some initial runs. Tested with same builds and made sure the crit result was the same for both.

Looks like some stuff was changed in the numbers, the role bonus was 20% even, whenever the offensive passive was slotted, which is an improvement from what I saw way back. When I tested without the passive slotted it was back to 25% bonus, so cool more consistent is nice.

Damage role with passive was 1.5x more damage than the hybrid without passive, and 1.2x more damage than hybrid with the same passive.

So a lot of differences from the last time I did this, it will be interesting to keep looking.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

Did some more testing and a couple things I can confirm:

Damage role buffs have been stabilized and don't vary anymore in the presence of other damage buffs, but are reduced to 1.2x when an offensive passive is present. The role buff is the full 1.25x damage when not using an offensive passive. Either some of the damage buff of an offensive passive is the same type as the role damage buff, or some other interaction is occurring.

Damage buffs are only being DR'd once now. I didn't notice this at first, but the global DR that made 10% effects show 9.1% and smoke grenade drop from 500% to 83% way back, isn't there anymore, so that's probably why I was seeing role plus passive damage at 1.5x hybrid damage unslotted when before I was seeing 1.24x max.

I need to check the DR curve for damage buffs now to make sure it hasn't changed, but this all looks good and has been consistent through tests, so I'm happy with it. If anyone sees anything that they can show as mistaken, I'd be happy to hear.

Arrowhead might be getting his offensive passive back

aiqa · August 2018

blkjackwilliams wrote: »

Damage role buffs have been stabilized and don't vary anymore in the presence of other damage buffs, but are reduced to 1.2x when an offensive passive is present. The role buff is the full 1.25x damage when not using an offensive passive. Either some of the damage buff of an offensive passive is the same type as the role damage buff, or some other interaction is occurring.

Probably because you are comparing hybrid to offense role. Those don't have the same damage bonus scaling from superstats. If you compare melee to ranged damage role you'll see exactly 25%.

joltrabbit · August 2018

So in other words... we need a much better reason for Hybrid role to exist outside of an AT that's stuck with it?

aiqa · August 2018

No.

pantagruel01 · August 2018

joltrabbit
joltrabbit#1208
wrote: »

So in other words... we need a much better reason for Hybrid role to exist outside of an AT that's stuck with it?

I would be happy tossing hybrid role. I do somewhat think that the role bonuses for ranged dps and melee dps should be toned down (maybe reduce to 10%) and offensive passives boosted to make up the difference, though.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

aiqa wrote: »

blkjackwilliams wrote: »

Damage role buffs have been stabilized and don't vary anymore in the presence of other damage buffs, but are reduced to 1.2x when an offensive passive is present. The role buff is the full 1.25x damage when not using an offensive passive. Either some of the damage buff of an offensive passive is the same type as the role damage buff, or some other interaction is occurring.

Probably because you are comparing hybrid to offense role. Those don't have the same damage bonus scaling from superstats. If you compare melee to ranged damage role you'll see exactly 25%.

Shouldn't be that, because when I used congress of selves in hybrid and damage roles I got 25%. EDIT: Just to add, I did hybrid unslotted and damage unslotted as well, and that was 25%, so if the SS damage bonus scaling was the issue it should have been 20% then too.

joltrabbit
joltrabbit#1208
wrote: »

So in other words... we need a much better reason for Hybrid role to exist outside of an AT that's stuck with it?

What aiqa said.

Hybrid is really strong, and it doesn't seem weaker than the last time I did this test, it just seems like the DR curves were made more generous, which is one of the two things that I wanted done to make offensive passives worth it.

spinnytop · August 2018

joltrabbit
joltrabbit#1208
wrote: »

So in other words... we need a much better reason for Hybrid role to exist outside of an AT that's stuck with it?

For tanks, just the ability to raise your damage while maintaining the use of a defensive passive and increasing your healing makes hybrid very strong. For dps only losing 25% damage for a decent increase in self healing can also be very strong. Support trade in some healing power for more damage. Every role can benefit from hybrid in some way in a variety of endgame situations. What more do you think Hybrid needs to be considered worth using for you?

aiqa · August 2018

blkjackwilliams wrote: »

Shouldn't be that, because when I used congress of selves in hybrid and damage roles I got 25%. EDIT: Just to add, I did hybrid unslotted and damage unslotted as well, and that was 25%, so if the SS damage bonus scaling was the issue it should have been 20% then too..

I tried to reproduce your results, but I get different results.

ranged damage role

without passive 
without form
gigabolt damage 4676

with passive 
without form
gigabolt damage 6200

with passive 
with form x8
gigabolt damage 7610

melee damage role

without passive 
without form
gigabolt damage 3741

with passive 
without form
gigabolt damage 4960

with passive 
with form x8
gigabolt damage 6088

hybrid role

without passive 
without form
gigabolt damage 3932

with passive 
without form
gigabolt damage 5091

with passive 
with form x8
gigabolt damage 6161

compare melee damage to ranged damage role

without passive 
without form
4676/3741=1.25

with passive 
without form
6200/4960=1.25

with passive 
with form x8
7610/6088=1.25

Conclusion
With ranged attacks the ranged damage role always gets exactly 25% higher damage than melee damage role.

compare hybrid to ranged damage role

without passive 
without form
4676/3932=1.189

with passive 
without form
6200/5091=1.218

with passive 
with form x8
7610/6161=1.235

Conclusion
The higher the additional damage bonus, the closer ranged damage role gets to 25% higher damage over hybrid role.
That makes sense. When the total damage bonus gets higher the additional damage from SS scaling from hybrid role is a smaller part. And hybrid gets a higher total damage bonus so it pushes further into DR.

passive and form in ranged damage role

damage increase from using a passive
6200/4676=1.326

damage increase from using a passive and form
7610/4676=1.627

passive and form in hybrid role

damage increase from using a passive
5091/3932=1.295

damage increase from using a passive and form
6161/3932=1.567

Conclusion
Hybrid role scales a bit worse with passives and forms.
Which again makes sense, hybrid role starts with higher damage bonus so it pushes into DR further.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

I don't trust the tooltips for as many times as I've seen them make no sense.

I just double checked, and I was getting 1.2x exact (1026 hyb and 1267 dam) when parsing hybrid vs damage using R3 offensive passive and R3 Star barrage (10% crits for both), and 1.25x with congress of selves (with the three DoTs) hybrid vs offense.

So what I'm getting from parsed DPS is different than what the tooltip is saying I should get, but it's been consistent every time.

aiqa · August 2018

Tooltips are only wrong in so far that powers have variable damage. The only power that gets you exactly what the tooltip says, without any variation, is sniper rifle. I probably should have used that, but I am fairly sure it would be the same.

nbkxs · August 2018

Hybrid is meh, and only good for CCers pulling, or OTing. For everything else, it's bad; and the role specific passives are always better.

blkjackwilliams · August 2018

aiqa wrote: »

Tooltips are only wrong in so far that powers have variable damage. The only power that gets you exactly what the tooltip says, without any variation, is sniper rifle. I probably should have used that, but I am fairly sure it would be the same.

I was able to match your results parsing with sniper rifle (1.22x hybrid to damage; 1.25x melee to ranged), but my other parses were still the same.

Either way, I'm glad offensive passives are in a position where they do what they say they should.

spinnytop · August 2018

nbkxs wrote: »

Hybrid is meh, and only good for CCers pulling, or OTing. For everything else, it's bad; and the role specific passives are always better.

Hybrid is better than tankrole for soloing, and can also be used to maintank when you're certain you'll still have enough threat to hold aggro. Hybrid is meh because that's how it's designed, it's not great at any one thing but good at a bunch of them. That's why it's good.

pantagruel01 · August 2018

blkjackwilliams wrote: »

So what I'm getting from parsed DPS is different than what the tooltip is saying I should get, but it's been consistent every time.

If you're getting consistent results from parsing, you're probably doing something wrong. Even on a quite long parse, you should have random variance of a couple percent.

pwestolemyname · August 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

nbkxs wrote: »

Hybrid is meh, and only good for CCers pulling, or OTing. For everything else, it's bad; and the role specific passives are always better.

Hybrid is better than tankrole for soloing,

From what I have seen, this is generally true for tankrole and less so for supportrole, but not so true for damagerole. It depends on build, of course, but it does not seem like the additional self-healing is going to outweigh kill-speed.

Hybrid w/ def passive is great for soloing leveling content, but underperforms everything in end-game group content.

spinnytop · August 2018

pwestolemyname wrote: »

From what I have seen, this is generally true for tankrole and less so for supportrole, but not so true for damagerole. It depends on build, of course, but it does not seem like the additional self-healing is going to outweigh kill-speed.

I mean hey, #thuglyfe, you know I be supportin' dat lifestyle of soloin' in dps role Yoyoyo just click da bottom link in da sig, nowadamsayin?

pwestolemyname wrote: »

Hybrid w/ def passive is great for soloing leveling content, but underperforms everything in end-game group content.

It underperforms in Dino and Eido. It makes those cries of "Please stop dying" die down at Kiga, and is completely irrelevant at ape.

pwestolemyname · August 2018

spinnytop wrote: »

It makes those cries of "Please stop dying" die down at Kiga

Because of the increased self-healing?

What's the value of an offensive passive

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