In my opinion, any buff to a hybrid spec or such a multi-role ability is nothing but a positive for both build diversity and player enjoyment.
Considering how widespread AoPM use is in endgame because it's considered the best overall aura, you shouldn't hold your breath for that buff. Vindicator is a dps spec, so it's also very unlikely they'll be trying to bring Aggressive Stance anywhere back to the tankish levels of dense it provided before.
I do have to ask though, what is it you like about it? Apart from how it worked with Wardicator.
PS - still waiting on those actual before/after defense numbers so I can do the math and show you you're probably only taking ~10% more damage
Sometimes I get the feeling that when some people say "theme" they actually mean "shallow building". I feel this way because all my builds are themed, but because their theme isn't skin deep they're still very strong.
I'm GUILTY for this years ago when I was starting playing with FF system and i was blindly defending this loop in the name of Themed builds to the point I got into arguements about this in both forums and ingame
I'm building 100% Themed builds to this day, but I grew over the years to understand the FF system better, game balance and more SPEC Combinations for the True Endgame
I have a lot of DPS who use Brawler and Avenger as well as Tanks who use Protector and farm the Cosmics just fine
Wardicator/Guardicator are still viable tho, im not ditching it any time soon
also I realized a lot of my Themed builds than use multiple powerframes together work better as TANKS (exception is my Magic-Darkeness, Warlock and Elementalist)
Overall the Loop made the playerbase kinda lazy with the building and refused to expand on other combos
All the powerframe revamps brought more tools to the table for more Themed builds options
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Still very very VERY glad that this fix happened. I was never a user of Wardicator/Guardicator, but I always dreaded it because everyone used it to try and cover lazy building. Now look at everyone, actually thinking about other options in their builds, while still practically staying the same theme they want to be and performing better than before.
The thing about Hybrid is that it takes clever building to master.
No it doesn't. It just takes knowing what hybrids are good at and switching out of hybrid role when not doing those things. Mostly, what hybrids are good at is soloing; in solo content:
With a defensive passive, soloing in hybrid role is almost always superior to tank role; the increase in dps and healing outweighs the reduction in mitigation and hit points.
With a support passive, soloing in hybrid role might be superior to support role, but is usually inferior to using a different passive.
With an offensive passive, soloing in hybrid role is usually inferior to dps role but may have specialized uses.
There are occasional situations where team content is effectively solo because you're expected to be doing something by yourself, such as offtanking and dog CC at kiga
It sounds like the problem there is the idea that AoPM is actually good for soloing.
No, the "problem "is he made a theme build. Typically, theme builds are not as...powerful, as cherry-picked builds designed for cosmics and such. In short, he built his power selection around his character's theme, for fun. Not for min/maxing. And because of that, this change hurt his build more than it would hurt those that min/max.
No, the "problem "is he made a theme build. Typically, theme builds are not as...powerful, as cherry-picked builds designed for cosmics and such. In short, he built his power selection around his character's theme, for fun. Not for min/maxing. And because of that, this change hurt his build more than it would hurt those that min/max.
This is so false. This is so ridiculously false. Themed builds can be very powerful. The "themed build" excuse has been falling flat for a long time now. Nearly everyone in the elite circle uses themed builds. Hell, I've even outperformed someone who was using a "cherry picked" build with a themed build - quite often in fact.
I will never understand people who Assume that Themed Build = WEAK, like WTF Archetypes are THEMED BUILDS in the first place and they contribute perfectly fine
I have themed builds that focus only on 1 powerframe and builds that use a combination of 3-4 powers
People underestimated me for building theme builds, and here I am playing DPS, TANK and Support in cosmics and SCORING https://youtu.be/4zCgbA1jdIo
Come and Tell me that my Power Armour, my Elementalist, Warlock DPSs are bad because they are "Themed:
or that my GANON-inspired TANK character who use Heavy Weapons+Darkness+Electricity is not a a good build because it's "Themed" and I will laugh at you while Im tanking and keeping agro on Cosmics
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergiesPlaying since 1 February 2011 98+ Characters (7 ATs, 91 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
I think, theme builds, can sometimes be less optimized / useful if you are adamant about picking certain powers in combination.
But, mostly theme builds can be very powerful, you just sometimes need to be willing to make some changes. You'll only run into problems if you ask for assistance with a theme build and refuse to change anything despite it "underperforming"
In short, you do not do actual theme building, you pick the powers to actually complement each other without real regard to the character's theme.
In short, you two do not know what actual theme building is.
I don't think it's necessary, nor fair to say that people who pick powers which don't complement each other are "obviously theme builders" and those who pick powers which compliment each other "clearly aren't theme builders".
That is a stupid argument and an over generalization of those who build for theme. Not to mention an insult to those who build for theme...and have builds which perform well.
I build for theme, but I can create builds and characters which fit in the theme I am going for in a creative manner and they perform well.
You'll know that there is always room for improvement for theme builds, so it's a constant process unless you are happy with what you've got.
Having a build which is FUN can also mean POWERFUL, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Side note: Have you seen Spinny's build vids? Those are in theme...and they rock...and look very fun. Whilst it's not something I'd run (I'd need a character idea first), I'd just be happy to see it in action.
I think, theme builds, can sometimes be less optimized / useful if you are adamant about picking certain powers in combination.
But, mostly theme builds can be very powerful, you just sometimes need to be willing to make some changes. You'll only run into problems if you ask for assistance with a theme build and refuse to change anything despite it "underperforming"
This was my point, the other two assumed I meant all themed builds.
In short, you do not do actual theme building, you pick the powers to actually complement each other without real regard to the character's theme.
In short, you two do not know what actual theme building is.
I don't think it's necessary, nor fair to say that people who pick powers which don't complement each other are "obviously theme builders" and those who pick powers which compliment each other "clearly aren't theme builders".
That is a stupid argument and an over generalization of those who build for theme. Not to mention an insult to those who build for theme...and have builds which perform well.
I build for theme, but I can create builds and characters which fit in the theme I am going for in a creative manner and they perform well.
You'll know that there is always room for improvement for theme builds, so it's a constant process unless you are happy with what you've got.
Having a build which is FUN can also mean POWERFUL, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Side note: Have you seen Spinny's build vids? Those are in theme...and they rock...and look very fun. Whilst it's not something I'd run (I'd need a character idea first), I'd just be happy to see it in action.
Wow, someone saw that post before it got ate up by the forum?
Well, that wasn't really my point. I wasn't meaning that people that build that way are obviously theme builders, there will always be the rare new player to free form that doesn't know how to make decent builds till they learn.
But, I'll admit one thing, I am not very good at choosing words to convey what I really mean. Hence why some times what I say is not what I am really trying to say.
And seriously, you are falling into the trap of assuming something I said to mean something I did not say, but, again, I am not that good at choosing words to mean what I mean and typically say only half of what I mean.
People need to stop assuming what someone is saying. It would be better to ask for clarification from people of what they mean.
If that is the case...and this happens frequently, I'd recommend checking your post before you actually post.
Read it over and try to read it from another person's perspective.
This can be difficult to do, especially if you are arguing a point and you are passionate about it, but it can help to avoid unnecessary escalations in the course of an argument if you are as clear as possible.
If that is the case...and this happens frequently, I'd recommend checking your post before you actually post.
Read it over and try to read it from another person's perspective.
This can be difficult to do, especially if you are arguing a point and you are passionate about it, but it avoid unnecessary escalations in the course of an argument if you are as clear as possible.
Then again, no one's perfect.
Fair enough points all around. I'll try to do that in the future...along with perhaps typing them in word or something, so they do not get lost when the forum eats my post.
As it just did with a post.
Which was where I was saying I don't normally watch videos on youtube, but the few I've seen from Spinny I did enjoy. And if you could point the direction to her vids, that would be appreciated.
I think, theme builds, can sometimes be less optimized / useful if you are adamant about picking certain powers in combination.
But, mostly theme builds can be very powerful, you just sometimes need to be willing to make some changes. You'll only run into problems if you ask for assistance with a theme build and refuse to change anything despite it "underperforming"
I have actually seen people bemoan the fact they can't have TWO energy builders simply because they felt it was theme appropriate.
I don't recall ever coming across a theme where hybrid AoPM was the best match for the theme. Really, it's a super generic passive.
That is the issue here I am having with people over theme building. We have different ideas of what a theme build is composed of. In truth, what the original person of the build was thinking at the time, is currently known only to him. But, if no other passive fit his theme, than, that would be a solid choice.
Lovely to see the Elite Circle creating drama where there was none. Stay Classy, kids.
The problem with Wardicator wasn't the bug, as such, it was the fact that the effect of the bug had no soft cap or Diminishing Returns applied to it; so every new gear set which gave increased defence or offence bonuses simply caused an exponential increase in potential damage or defence. This is why you can find the same people arguing that the bug caused players to be OP and that the effects of nerfing it aren't worth worrying about - both outcomes are true, it just depended on what resources the player had available.
It's a bit of a shame that the fix couldn't be amended to apply some form of DR so that lower level/lower geared characters gained an initially stronger benefit from Wardicator which didn't continue to increase in the same way as it did, but I guess the devs don't have time for that sort of thing. Wardicator was a good fulcrum to build hybrids around, but I guess that has to be kicked into touch to prevent the excesses of players who maxed it out above all common sense. Other options are available (and I'm loving seeing Spinny recommend people swapping AoPM for Invuln.....).
I will never understand people who Assume that Themed Build = WEAK, like WTF Archetypes are THEMED BUILDS in the first place and they contribute perfectly fine
I have themed builds that focus only on 1 powerframe and builds that use a combination of 3-4 powers
You're generalizing a bit here. Of course not all themed builds are weak, but also, it's important to understand the following:
Some sets mix together way better than others
Offensive passives limit the performance of anything outside their coverage, and Night Warrior is only okay if you don't care about any of the secondary benefits provided by other offensive passives. You'd also have to be okay with doing subpar damage against anything with little/no resistances.
Offense-based damage roles limit the performance of anything that tries to cross the range-vs-melee divide and Hybrid is too potato to be an acceptable alternative. Thankfully, tanks and supports don't have to deal with this kind of crap.
Energy unlocks limit the viability of many combinations because you have to pay the energy taxman somehow. This can sometimes mean working some corny ability into the mix that you otherwise wouldn't have taken.
Because CO apparently needs its unnecessary redundancies and mechanics bloat, Forms limit the performance of anything crossing the range-vs-melee divide even further, as well as by imposing further restrictions via activation criteria, although thankfully some forms still exist that are more lenient in this regard.
So yeah, when you begin building, say, an elemental archmage, you'll quickly notice that fire, wind, earth, and ice (because we don't have water yet) don't really mix well. Unless you want to compromise half of your powers, you're stuck with Night Warrior as your passive. Then you have to figure out how to keep your energy unlock running, and given the state of ice and wind's energy unlock, as well as earth's complete lack of one, expect to be using some easy applicator for clinging flames. In the end, what you end up with might work, but it's unlikely to be better or even on par with a generic all-the-right-powers-from-only-one-framework printing press build. That is, unless it turns into a printing press build (all the fire powers) with a bunch of fluff for all the other aspects (ice block, wind CC, earth...I don't even know) which would be unfortunate. Oh, and when picking earth powers, the melee options are most likely out because your role and form are saying, "stick to ranged only or gtfo"
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
I will never understand people who Assume that Themed Build = WEAK, like WTF Archetypes are THEMED BUILDS in the first place and they contribute perfectly fine
I have themed builds that focus only on 1 powerframe and builds that use a combination of 3-4 powers
You're generalizing a bit here. Of course not all themed builds are weak, but also, it's important to understand the following:
Some sets mix together way better than others
Offensive passives limit the performance of anything outside their coverage, and Night Warrior is only okay if you don't care about any of the secondary benefits provided by other offensive passives. You'd also have to be okay with doing subpar damage against anything with little/no resistances.
Offense-based damage roles limit the performance of anything that tries to cross the range-vs-melee divide and Hybrid is too potato to be an acceptable alternative. Thankfully, tanks and supports don't have to deal with this kind of crap.
Energy unlocks limit the viability of many combinations because you have to pay the energy taxman somehow. This can sometimes mean working some corny ability into the mix that you otherwise wouldn't have taken.
Because CO apparently needs its unnecessary redundancies and mechanics bloat, Forms limit the performance of anything crossing the range-vs-melee divide even further, as well as by imposing further restrictions via activation criteria, although thankfully some forms still exist that are more lenient in this regard.
So yeah, when you begin building, say, an elemental archmage, you'll quickly notice that fire, wind, earth, and ice (because we don't have water yet) don't really mix well. Unless you want to compromise half of your powers, you're stuck with Night Warrior as your passive. Then you have to figure out how to keep your energy unlock running, and given the state of ice and wind's energy unlock, as well as earth's complete lack of one, expect to be using some easy applicator for clinging flames. In the end, what you end up with might work, but it's unlikely to be better or even on par with a generic all-the-right-powers-from-only-one-framework printing press build. That is, unless it turns into a printing press build (all the fire powers) with a bunch of fluff for all the other aspects (ice block, wind CC, earth...I don't even know) which would be unfortunate. Oh, and when picking earth powers, the melee options are most likely out because your role and form are saying, "stick to ranged only or gtfo"
I actually do have an elemental mage. With night warrior as their passive even. Concentration for the form, since it is one of the few forms that allow ease of use across many power sets (for ranged mostly). I took the one EU that works off of cool downs, and took a heavy amount of powers with cool downs from the elemental trees. It works and is fun. But, it is hard to work with.
If the tl;dr on that is that you admit you were wrong when you said that and you take it back, I accept.
Half right on that. For what my original post was trying to say is that it is true that theme builds can be strong. But, it is also true they can be weak. Which, for some reason you seemed to not believe. I hope that is not the case. I also admited that I am not good at conveying what I am meaning with my words. Sometimes, I omit what my actual point is/was at the time.
All right, I'm listening. Tell me why this isn't a theme build
*Pushes up glasses*
ACKCHYUALLY
You're not using the Electric Teleport or Electric Speed powers, and you're using Conviction.
*Deep inhale snort*
And you're probably using Spec Trees and Stats that a REAL Electric theme wouldn't use.
In my opinion, any buff to a hybrid spec or such a multi-role ability is nothing but a positive for both build diversity and player enjoyment.
Considering how widespread AoPM use is in endgame because it's considered the best overall aura, you shouldn't hold your breath for that buff. Vindicator is a dps spec, so it's also very unlikely they'll be trying to bring Aggressive Stance anywhere back to the tankish levels of dense it provided before.
I do have to ask though, what is it you like about it? Apart from how it worked with Wardicator.
PS - still waiting on those actual before/after defense numbers so I can do the math and show you you're probably only taking ~10% more damage
Sorry for the late reply - here's before and afters (Unsure how to attach images on this forum, I noted the image button at the top but I can't see where it goes in preview and using BBCode doesn't display the image)
*EDIT*
And to add on, I absolutely adore anything that gives me the potential to spread out my stats/boosts everything else. I've always hated focusing in x y z aspects in games, so AoPM giving everything a solid boost is nice. I don't have to pick an energy regen passive/worry too much about it, and I can get some overall usage out of every attribute without opening my character sheet to see that outside of 3 the rest are useless.
In my opinion, any buff to a hybrid spec or such a multi-role ability is nothing but a positive for both build diversity and player enjoyment.
Considering how widespread AoPM use is in endgame because it's considered the best overall aura, you shouldn't hold your breath for that buff. Vindicator is a dps spec, so it's also very unlikely they'll be trying to bring Aggressive Stance anywhere back to the tankish levels of dense it provided before.
I do have to ask though, what is it you like about it? Apart from how it worked with Wardicator.
PS - still waiting on those actual before/after defense numbers so I can do the math and show you you're probably only taking ~10% more damage
Sorry for the late reply - here's before and afters (Unsure how to attach images on this forum, I noted the image button at the top but I can't see where it goes in preview and using BBCode doesn't display the image)
*EDIT*
And to add on, I absolutely adore anything that gives me the potential to spread out my stats/boosts everything else. I've always hated focusing in x y z aspects in games, so AoPM giving everything a solid boost is nice. I don't have to pick an energy regen passive/worry too much about it, and I can get some overall usage out of every attribute without opening my character sheet to see that outside of 3 the rest are useless.
That is quite the drop in defense, not even my characters dropped like that...
All right, I'm listening. Tell me why this isn't a theme build
*Pushes up glasses*
ACKCHYUALLY
You're not using the Electric Teleport or Electric Speed powers, and you're using Conviction.
*Deep inhale snort*
And you're probably using Spec Trees and Stats that a REAL Electric theme wouldn't use.
Theme-building primarily has to do with building based on character concept. A character concept might involve taking a number of powers that fit the concept while making sure the selection of powers / advantages / specs keep the toon viable and practical in combat, regardless of what actual tree those powers belong to.
Just because a toon uses one or two electrical powers doesn't mean it has to also take an electric-based TP to qualify the build as a themed one, because the character concept might have a reason for picking other TPs. What does "using spec trees and stats that a REAL electric theme wouldn't use" mean anyway? I don't recall seeing any stats and specs that have their descriptions in bold saying "THIS IS FOR ELECTRIC DUM-DUM!". This is completely arbitrary and absurd.
Conviction universally fits in any build anyway as a soft heal so it's ridiculously nitpicky to criticize any theme-builder for using that power.
I will never understand people who Assume that Themed Build = WEAK, like WTF Archetypes are THEMED BUILDS in the first place and they contribute perfectly fine
I have themed builds that focus only on 1 powerframe and builds that use a combination of 3-4 powers
People underestimated me for building theme builds, and here I am playing DPS, TANK and Support in cosmics and SCORING https://youtu.be/4zCgbA1jdIo
Come and Tell me that my Power Armour, my Elementalist, Warlock DPSs are bad because they are "Themed:
or that my GANON-inspired TANK character who use Heavy Weapons+Darkness+Electricity is not a a good build because it's "Themed" and I will laugh at you while Im tanking and keeping agro on Cosmics
I think you're all misunderstanding, though I haven't clarified before this either - theme comes in various qualities. As an example, my main character is a spellsword who uses single blade and ego blade techniques. I'm working to upkeep ego leech and bleed stacks to make it work together. Actually came out alright, but its missing some synergy/ancillary skills that would be a better boon but due to the theme, I'm mixing powersets that generally don't mix. Or another example is a might sword user with poison/ice/whathave you abilities, things like that.
Sorry for the late reply - here's before and afters (Unsure how to attach images on this forum, I noted the image button at the top but I can't see where it goes in preview and using BBCode doesn't display the image)
*EDIT*
And to add on, I absolutely adore anything that gives me the potential to spread out my stats/boosts everything else. I've always hated focusing in x y z aspects in games, so AoPM giving everything a solid boost is nice. I don't have to pick an energy regen passive/worry too much about it, and I can get some overall usage out of every attribute without opening my character sheet to see that outside of 3 the rest are useless.
So you like that it saves you 1 power slot, and gives you a bit of knock resist. Well, I did ask.
I think you're all misunderstanding, though I haven't clarified before this either - theme comes in various qualities. As an example, my main character is a spellsword who uses single blade and ego blade techniques. I'm working to upkeep ego leech and bleed stacks to make it work together. Actually came out alright, but its missing some synergy/ancillary skills that would be a better boon but due to the theme, I'm mixing powersets that generally don't mix. Or another example is a might sword user with poison/ice/whathave you abilities, things like that.
Non-themed builds come in varying qualities as well. I've seen some ridiculous frankenbuilds where the person in question clearly had no idea what they were doing - simply choosing to not build according to a theme does not suddenly confer some greater power level on a character and in fact can lead to some of the most gimped builds imaginable. So, no matter if you're themed or not your build might be strong or weak. Ultimately, which one it is is up to the player, their knowledge of the game, and their play ability. Themed or not themed does not factor.
Nah, like I said, I also like utilizing every stat as much as I can. Being a jack of all trades if possible is the route I will always go in an MMO, though sadly not many allow you to do that. Mabinogi was amazing for that aspect.
Was expecting a bigger drop than 7%, where are these numbers from and how does Cryptic mitigation work? It's jarring as hell, but on the flip much better than 25%.
Some themed builds can be extremely weak. Staredown, for instance, is limited (by me, obviously) to powers that can be set to emanate from the face (so it can look like he's firing them from his eyes). Force and Fire powers can work well for that, as well as tying into Gail Simone's ongoing Twitter joke about Cyclops' eye beams being heat-based; but it limits the other powers I can take rather severely, so he's never going to be going into any serious queues or anything. (Heck, unless inspiration strikes, he may not make it to level 30!)
On the other hand, Captain Mercaptan, who's built around a theme of noxious gases (he's a man/skunk hybrid), seems to be able to melt his opponents easily, at least so far. We'll see how he does when he makes it to someplace tougher than the Lynx Fold region... However, what I have to watch with him is the fact that most of his powers are AoE. I understand there are some cosmics where he wouldn't be particularly welcome.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
As I build people left and right to suit their theme,
I make sure they have fun with the build before making it good and viable for endgame, and I stand by that.
Feel free to test me in that regard, I can definitely show you how to make anything happen and prove theme builds are not weak, no matter the theme.
Pretty much all players play themed builds. Just like all players have CO accounts... that doesn't mean having a CO account makes you ineffective. Just like having a themed build does not make you ineffective.
Not knowing what you are doing makes you ineffective. Or if you know what you are doing and you willfully ignore being effective then that can make you ineffective too.
Stop discouraging people who want play their themed characters from doing so. Most people are able to have a theme and be effective. There's nothing elite about it. Themed effective characters are super common.
"This means that a hit for 10,000 damage would before have hit you for 4900, and will now hit you for 5600. That's only 14% more damage taken."
14% more damage per hit is quite an issue in situations where you take damage from multiple enemies, and that has to be made up somehow. It'll be interesting to see how the Save The Earth alert pans out under the new specs, as that's the sort of content where being overwhelmed is more of an issue than being one-shotted.
"Oh, and when picking earth powers, the melee options are most likely out because your role and form are saying, "stick to ranged only or gtfo" "
You mean you don't use Enrage?
You...did read the whole thing, right?
If your theme is elemental (fire, ice/water, wind, and earth) then taking enrage is only going to be good for the earth portion. It'd be far wiser to follow soulforger's example, taking Concentration + ranged earth powers.
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
Side note: Have you seen Spinny's build vids? Those are in theme...and they rock...and look very fun
Those are not "theme" builds - they are "themed" on a single framework so, of course those work, because Cryptic made those work.
When people say theme builds they mean themes other than those directly endorsed by a single framework.
It can be difficult to optimize something that visually [so no, Masterful Dodge, etc. is not enough] combines 2 or 3 frameworks especially if they are built on different roles:
I will never understand people who Assume that Themed Build = WEAK, like WTF Archetypes are THEMED BUILDS in the first place and they contribute perfectly fine
I have themed builds that focus only on 1 powerframe and builds that use a combination of 3-4 powers
You're generalizing a bit here. Of course not all themed builds are weak, but also, it's important to understand the following:
Some sets mix together way better than others
Offensive passives limit the performance of anything outside their coverage, and Night Warrior is only okay if you don't care about any of the secondary benefits provided by other offensive passives. You'd also have to be okay with doing subpar damage against anything with little/no resistances.
Offense-based damage roles limit the performance of anything that tries to cross the range-vs-melee divide and Hybrid is too potato to be an acceptable alternative. Thankfully, tanks and supports don't have to deal with this kind of crap.
Energy unlocks limit the viability of many combinations because you have to pay the energy taxman somehow. This can sometimes mean working some corny ability into the mix that you otherwise wouldn't have taken.
Because CO apparently needs its unnecessary redundancies and mechanics bloat, Forms limit the performance of anything crossing the range-vs-melee divide even further, as well as by imposing further restrictions via activation criteria, although thankfully some forms still exist that are more lenient in this regard.
So yeah, when you begin building, say, an elemental archmage, you'll quickly notice that fire, wind, earth, and ice (because we don't have water yet) don't really mix well. Unless you want to compromise half of your powers, you're stuck with Night Warrior as your passive. Then you have to figure out how to keep your energy unlock running, and given the state of ice and wind's energy unlock, as well as earth's complete lack of one, expect to be using some easy applicator for clinging flames. In the end, what you end up with might work, but it's unlikely to be better or even on par with a generic all-the-right-powers-from-only-one-framework printing press build. That is, unless it turns into a printing press build (all the fire powers) with a bunch of fluff for all the other aspects (ice block, wind CC, earth...I don't even know) which would be unfortunate. Oh, and when picking earth powers, the melee options are most likely out because your role and form are saying, "stick to ranged only or gtfo"
Great post.
These artificial restrictions just create power niche whack a mole. Frameworks should be an organization tool to help players find powers. Restriction by framework makes little sense. It feels like Cryptic, especially since the cosmic release, are pursuing framework de-diversification as a goal unto itself.
The entire point of game balance is to make diverse choices not feel like punishment.
Ok, a little question here... the key question actually... Are Offense and Defense affected by diminishing returns?
If they are, like nearly every other stat in this game, then if you lost more than 20 or 30 points of offense/defense due to this fix, you were well above the point where diminishing returns made that insignificant.
The Forumite formerly known as Galeforce.
If you want my money, there is a fairly simple way to get it since I am fairly free with how I spend it. First, produce something I consider to be worth buying. Second, offer it up for sale. Don't lock it behind a gambling scam. If I want something, I am perfectly happy to pay for it. But I will not purchase a CHANCE to get it, When I pay money, I have a perfectly logical right to expect to get what I want.
When people say theme builds they mean themes other than those directly endorsed by a single framework.
So now nobody's build qualifies as "themed" unless it uses more than one framework? So if I roll out a build that uses 2 frameworks that's strong, are you going to roll that back to "no wait, what I meant was three frameworks"?
It's starting to sound like this isn't about theme at all, and the phrase you should be using is "multi-framework builds".
Here's a build that picks from 3 frameworks. It's themed themey theme is "Conjurer". This is also an example of a build that was directly enabled by the changes the current team have made to frameworks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8nfZh0eU6E
When people say theme builds they mean themes other than those directly endorsed by a single framework.
So now nobody's build qualifies as "themed" unless it uses more than one framework? So if I roll out a build that uses 2 frameworks that's strong, are you going to roll that back to "no wait, what I meant was three frameworks"?
It's starting to sound like this isn't about theme at all, and the phrase you should be using is "multi-framework builds".
Here's a build that picks from 3 frameworks. It's themed themey theme is "Conjurer". This is also an example of a build that was directly enabled by the changes the current team have made to frameworks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8nfZh0eU6E
Going to have to side with you on this one. For I was not meaning that at all when I said theme builds. Cause, yes, a build centered around a single power frame because that is the character's theme, is a theme build. Of course, not everyone who does that does that for theme. They do that for optimal power. And it is easier to build for optimal power in a single power set, in most cases anyways.
Though, of course, some people will consider things like forms, passives, self heals, etc, to be thematic for their purposes. So, sometimes something you'd think could fit in most builds won't fit into a person's theme.
The entire point of game balance is to make diverse choices not feel like punishment.
The point of game balance depends on what you're balancing for. It's not actually possible to make all options viable unless options become meaningless, people can always shoot themselves in the feet, but the usual objective is some combination of two (somewhat conflicting) choices:
Though, of course, some people will consider things like forms, passives, self heals, etc, to be thematic for their purposes. So, sometimes something you'd think could fit in most builds won't fit into a person's theme.
I still don't get why someone would limit themselves for the sake of an icon. It's fine that they do of course, but they have to accept that that limitation is self-imposed and not a fault of the game. They even took all the VFX off of passives/forms to make them theme-neutral.
Side note: Have you seen Spinny's build vids? Those are in theme...and they rock...and look very fun
Those are not "theme" builds - they are "themed" on a single framework so, of course those work, because Cryptic made those work.
I'll post a list of my toons:
Fenrir - Bestial
Fenris Ω Mk.XIII: PA
Ifrit: Fire
Galen: Unarmed
Spirit of CoX: TK Blade
Spirit of ToS: Laser Sword
Those all use a single framework. They are mono"themed" builds. For example, Fenrir is a wolf, his theme is that he is a wolf and thus he uses Bestial because that fits his theme. Should I give him Dual Pistols because otherwise he doesn't qualify as a theme?
Anyways, let's move on. Then for dual themed builds I have:
Here you'll probably say that Fire/Ice were built to work together, and Gadgeteer/Munitions is too same-y. So let's move on
Kaiser Behemoth: Might/Earth/Lightning
Griever: Lightning/Wind/Force
Madeen: Telepathy/Telekinetic/Sorcery
You've probably seen these toons of mine. One is my main tank that I used to run Cosmics all day long with ez pz (though at the time he was Infernal/Earth/Lightning). The last one is my CC. All viable builds
And finally:
Belphegor: Might/Fighting Claws/Bestial/Unarmed/"Chains" if that counts as a different powerframe
This one I just went nuts ^_^
All of the characters I listed here have functional builds that are able to perform above average in Cosmics and I had a theme in mind for all of them when I created.
So I think it's high time we drop the "muh theme" argument as an excuse for not knowing how to make a build.
I still don't get why someone would limit themselves for the sake of an icon. It's fine that they do of course, but they have to accept that that limitation is self-imposed and not a fault of the game. They even took all the VFX off of passives/forms to make them theme-neutral.
^^^ this x 100000. I have a lot of people telling me "No, I don't take that passive cause muh theme.", "I went with X form instead of X form cause MUUUh theme", "No, I can't pick that spec tree cause M U H T H E M E"
Mofo spec tree??? really? You do know that your passive, form or spec tree do not affect the way your toon looks or behaves at all.
It's one thing to say "look, these bullets do not fit my gun" but this is a case of having a completely functional pistol and shooting yourself in the foot with a banana. I'll let you figure out how that would work.
most of what am about to say is what some of you are slowly starting to get...
begin rant!
group 1: "i build around a theme and blah blah"
group 2: "i build around a theme too but i don't blah blah"
YOU BOTH ARE BOZOS
every single bum that plays this game has a theme
the pvper who wants to leave everyone rekt and min max... that is a theme
the blackredder... yeah that is a theme too
even the doofus who doesn't understand the difference between copyright infringement and homage... is a theme sadly
here's the thing, these are the two groups in a general view:
Group 1's definition of theme: visual appeal + whatever their head cannon (and that is usually IT)
Group 2's definition of theme: everything in Group 1 + mechanical / synergy appeal
to further elaborate, here's a group 1's example:
biiiiig huuuuuuge strong dumbo that uses invuln+enrage because he supposed to be super strong and tough and ANGRY
but uses something like pistols to fight...
Group 2 is usually gonna have a fit when they see that
bottom line: theme is not the issue... it never WAS the issue
mechanical / synergy that supports a wide array of themes is the issue and that is limited by what is available from the game and whatever group 2 buildmasters can cook up (and group 2 does have some very good builders right here in this thread)
stop being bozos and arguing about theme (BOTH GROUPS) and instead of playing heroes in a game, be actual heroes by:
1) asking for mechanical / synergy help to make your theme work, if you wanna do harder content
2) providing mechanical / synergy help with absolute minimum power replacement (keep input concise)
(yes some of you do all that but this is for those who can't get past the theme detour roadblock)
theme is just a distraction from the actual issue, because themes are just way too much fun
Comments
Considering how widespread AoPM use is in endgame because it's considered the best overall aura, you shouldn't hold your breath for that buff. Vindicator is a dps spec, so it's also very unlikely they'll be trying to bring Aggressive Stance anywhere back to the tankish levels of dense it provided before.
I do have to ask though, what is it you like about it? Apart from how it worked with Wardicator.
PS - still waiting on those actual before/after defense numbers so I can do the math and show you you're probably only taking ~10% more damage
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I do think that this change though, does give me a chance to play around with something different.
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I'm building 100% Themed builds to this day, but I grew over the years to understand the FF system better, game balance and more SPEC Combinations for the True Endgame
I have a lot of DPS who use Brawler and Avenger as well as Tanks who use Protector and farm the Cosmics just fine
Wardicator/Guardicator are still viable tho, im not ditching it any time soon
also I realized a lot of my Themed builds than use multiple powerframes together work better as TANKS (exception is my Magic-Darkeness, Warlock and Elementalist)
Overall the Loop made the playerbase kinda lazy with the building and refused to expand on other combos
All the powerframe revamps brought more tools to the table for more Themed builds options
And i'm just lazy.
Good thing i'm on the "elite".
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
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- With a defensive passive, soloing in hybrid role is almost always superior to tank role; the increase in dps and healing outweighs the reduction in mitigation and hit points.
- With a support passive, soloing in hybrid role might be superior to support role, but is usually inferior to using a different passive.
- With an offensive passive, soloing in hybrid role is usually inferior to dps role but may have specialized uses.
There are occasional situations where team content is effectively solo because you're expected to be doing something by yourself, such as offtanking and dog CC at kigaEpic Stronghold
Block timing explained
No, the "problem "is he made a theme build. Typically, theme builds are not as...powerful, as cherry-picked builds designed for cosmics and such. In short, he built his power selection around his character's theme, for fun. Not for min/maxing. And because of that, this change hurt his build more than it would hurt those that min/max.
But, there are alternatives he can build for.
This is so false. This is so ridiculously false. Themed builds can be very powerful. The "themed build" excuse has been falling flat for a long time now. Nearly everyone in the elite circle uses themed builds. Hell, I've even outperformed someone who was using a "cherry picked" build with a themed build - quite often in fact.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I have themed builds that focus only on 1 powerframe and builds that use a combination of 3-4 powers
People underestimated me for building theme builds, and here I am playing DPS, TANK and Support in cosmics and SCORING
Come and Tell me that my Power Armour, my Elementalist, Warlock DPSs are bad because they are "Themed:
or that my GANON-inspired TANK character who use Heavy Weapons+Darkness+Electricity is not a a good build because it's "Themed" and I will laugh at you while Im tanking and keeping agro on Cosmics
But, mostly theme builds can be very powerful, you just sometimes need to be willing to make some changes. You'll only run into problems if you ask for assistance with a theme build and refuse to change anything despite it "underperforming"
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I don't think it's necessary, nor fair to say that people who pick powers which don't complement each other are "obviously theme builders" and those who pick powers which compliment each other "clearly aren't theme builders".
That is a stupid argument and an over generalization of those who build for theme. Not to mention an insult to those who build for theme...and have builds which perform well.
I build for theme, but I can create builds and characters which fit in the theme I am going for in a creative manner and they perform well.
You'll know that there is always room for improvement for theme builds, so it's a constant process unless you are happy with what you've got.
Having a build which is FUN can also mean POWERFUL, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Side note: Have you seen Spinny's build vids? Those are in theme...and they rock...and look very fun. Whilst it's not something I'd run (I'd need a character idea first), I'd just be happy to see it in action.
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This was my point, the other two assumed I meant all themed builds.
Wow, someone saw that post before it got ate up by the forum?
Well, that wasn't really my point. I wasn't meaning that people that build that way are obviously theme builders, there will always be the rare new player to free form that doesn't know how to make decent builds till they learn.
But, I'll admit one thing, I am not very good at choosing words to convey what I really mean. Hence why some times what I say is not what I am really trying to say.
And seriously, you are falling into the trap of assuming something I said to mean something I did not say, but, again, I am not that good at choosing words to mean what I mean and typically say only half of what I mean.
People need to stop assuming what someone is saying. It would be better to ask for clarification from people of what they mean.
Read it over and try to read it from another person's perspective.
This can be difficult to do, especially if you are arguing a point and you are passionate about it, but it can help to avoid unnecessary escalations in the course of an argument if you are as clear as possible.
Then again, no one's perfect.
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I am @RavenForce in game
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Fair enough points all around. I'll try to do that in the future...along with perhaps typing them in word or something, so they do not get lost when the forum eats my post.
As it just did with a post.
Which was where I was saying I don't normally watch videos on youtube, but the few I've seen from Spinny I did enjoy. And if you could point the direction to her vids, that would be appreciated.
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My characters
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
That is the issue here I am having with people over theme building. We have different ideas of what a theme build is composed of. In truth, what the original person of the build was thinking at the time, is currently known only to him. But, if no other passive fit his theme, than, that would be a solid choice.
I reported that loop on the day after On alert hit.
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I personally did not know about the loop until the following year. I also reported it at that point.
The problem with Wardicator wasn't the bug, as such, it was the fact that the effect of the bug had no soft cap or Diminishing Returns applied to it; so every new gear set which gave increased defence or offence bonuses simply caused an exponential increase in potential damage or defence. This is why you can find the same people arguing that the bug caused players to be OP and that the effects of nerfing it aren't worth worrying about - both outcomes are true, it just depended on what resources the player had available.
It's a bit of a shame that the fix couldn't be amended to apply some form of DR so that lower level/lower geared characters gained an initially stronger benefit from Wardicator which didn't continue to increase in the same way as it did, but I guess the devs don't have time for that sort of thing. Wardicator was a good fulcrum to build hybrids around, but I guess that has to be kicked into touch to prevent the excesses of players who maxed it out above all common sense. Other options are available (and I'm loving seeing Spinny recommend people swapping AoPM for Invuln.....).
xx all
So yeah, when you begin building, say, an elemental archmage, you'll quickly notice that fire, wind, earth, and ice (because we don't have water yet) don't really mix well. Unless you want to compromise half of your powers, you're stuck with Night Warrior as your passive. Then you have to figure out how to keep your energy unlock running, and given the state of ice and wind's energy unlock, as well as earth's complete lack of one, expect to be using some easy applicator for clinging flames. In the end, what you end up with might work, but it's unlikely to be better or even on par with a generic all-the-right-powers-from-only-one-framework printing press build. That is, unless it turns into a printing press build (all the fire powers) with a bunch of fluff for all the other aspects (ice block, wind CC, earth...I don't even know) which would be unfortunate. Oh, and when picking earth powers, the melee options are most likely out because your role and form are saying, "stick to ranged only or gtfo"
You mean you don't use Enrage?
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My characters
All right, I'm listening. Tell me why this isn't a theme build:
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Question...did you only stop at that quote and not read the rest of the convo?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I actually do have an elemental mage. With night warrior as their passive even. Concentration for the form, since it is one of the few forms that allow ease of use across many power sets (for ranged mostly). I took the one EU that works off of cool downs, and took a heavy amount of powers with cool downs from the elemental trees. It works and is fun. But, it is hard to work with.
Half right on that. For what my original post was trying to say is that it is true that theme builds can be strong. But, it is also true they can be weak. Which, for some reason you seemed to not believe. I hope that is not the case. I also admited that I am not good at conveying what I am meaning with my words. Sometimes, I omit what my actual point is/was at the time.
*Pushes up glasses*
ACKCHYUALLY
You're not using the Electric Teleport or Electric Speed powers, and you're using Conviction.
*Deep inhale snort*
And you're probably using Spec Trees and Stats that a REAL Electric theme wouldn't use.
Sorry for the late reply - here's before and afters (Unsure how to attach images on this forum, I noted the image button at the top but I can't see where it goes in preview and using BBCode doesn't display the image)
Before:
https://imgur.com/a/314xf27
After:
https://imgur.com/a/W60Tg1z
*EDIT*
And to add on, I absolutely adore anything that gives me the potential to spread out my stats/boosts everything else. I've always hated focusing in x y z aspects in games, so AoPM giving everything a solid boost is nice. I don't have to pick an energy regen passive/worry too much about it, and I can get some overall usage out of every attribute without opening my character sheet to see that outside of 3 the rest are useless.
That is quite the drop in defense, not even my characters dropped like that...
Theme-building primarily has to do with building based on character concept. A character concept might involve taking a number of powers that fit the concept while making sure the selection of powers / advantages / specs keep the toon viable and practical in combat, regardless of what actual tree those powers belong to.
Just because a toon uses one or two electrical powers doesn't mean it has to also take an electric-based TP to qualify the build as a themed one, because the character concept might have a reason for picking other TPs. What does "using spec trees and stats that a REAL electric theme wouldn't use" mean anyway? I don't recall seeing any stats and specs that have their descriptions in bold saying "THIS IS FOR ELECTRIC DUM-DUM!". This is completely arbitrary and absurd.
Conviction universally fits in any build anyway as a soft heal so it's ridiculously nitpicky to criticize any theme-builder for using that power.
I think you're all misunderstanding, though I haven't clarified before this either - theme comes in various qualities. As an example, my main character is a spellsword who uses single blade and ego blade techniques. I'm working to upkeep ego leech and bleed stacks to make it work together. Actually came out alright, but its missing some synergy/ancillary skills that would be a better boon but due to the theme, I'm mixing powersets that generally don't mix. Or another example is a might sword user with poison/ice/whathave you abilities, things like that.
This drop means that you lost about 7% damage mitigation. Before you were taking 49% of incoming damage, now you are taking 56% of incoming damage.
This means that a hit for 10,000 damage would before have hit you for 4900, and will now hit you for 5600. That's only 14% more damage taken.
Now that you know the minor effect the change had on your character, you know how little you have to adjust.
So you like that it saves you 1 power slot, and gives you a bit of knock resist. Well, I did ask.
Non-themed builds come in varying qualities as well. I've seen some ridiculous frankenbuilds where the person in question clearly had no idea what they were doing - simply choosing to not build according to a theme does not suddenly confer some greater power level on a character and in fact can lead to some of the most gimped builds imaginable. So, no matter if you're themed or not your build might be strong or weak. Ultimately, which one it is is up to the player, their knowledge of the game, and their play ability. Themed or not themed does not factor.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Was expecting a bigger drop than 7%, where are these numbers from and how does Cryptic mitigation work? It's jarring as hell, but on the flip much better than 25%.
On the other hand, Captain Mercaptan, who's built around a theme of noxious gases (he's a man/skunk hybrid), seems to be able to melt his opponents easily, at least so far. We'll see how he does when he makes it to someplace tougher than the Lynx Fold region... However, what I have to watch with him is the fact that most of his powers are AoE. I understand there are some cosmics where he wouldn't be particularly welcome.
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I make sure they have fun with the build before making it good and viable for endgame, and I stand by that.
Feel free to test me in that regard, I can definitely show you how to make anything happen and prove theme builds are not weak, no matter the theme.
Not knowing what you are doing makes you ineffective. Or if you know what you are doing and you willfully ignore being effective then that can make you ineffective too.
Stop discouraging people who want play their themed characters from doing so. Most people are able to have a theme and be effective. There's nothing elite about it. Themed effective characters are super common.
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14% more damage per hit is quite an issue in situations where you take damage from multiple enemies, and that has to be made up somehow. It'll be interesting to see how the Save The Earth alert pans out under the new specs, as that's the sort of content where being overwhelmed is more of an issue than being one-shotted.
If your theme is elemental (fire, ice/water, wind, and earth) then taking enrage is only going to be good for the earth portion. It'd be far wiser to follow soulforger's example, taking Concentration + ranged earth powers.
Those are not "theme" builds - they are "themed" on a single framework so, of course those work, because Cryptic made those work.
When people say theme builds they mean themes other than those directly endorsed by a single framework.
It can be difficult to optimize something that visually [so no, Masterful Dodge, etc. is not enough] combines 2 or 3 frameworks especially if they are built on different roles:
Darkness / Heavy
Telepathy / Unarmed
Gadgeteer / Darkness / Electricity
Ice / Might / Earth
Etc.
Great post.
These artificial restrictions just create power niche whack a mole. Frameworks should be an organization tool to help players find powers. Restriction by framework makes little sense. It feels like Cryptic, especially since the cosmic release, are pursuing framework de-diversification as a goal unto itself.
The entire point of game balance is to make diverse choices not feel like punishment.
If they are, like nearly every other stat in this game, then if you lost more than 20 or 30 points of offense/defense due to this fix, you were well above the point where diminishing returns made that insignificant.
The Forumite formerly known as Galeforce.
If you want my money, there is a fairly simple way to get it since I am fairly free with how I spend it. First, produce something I consider to be worth buying. Second, offer it up for sale. Don't lock it behind a gambling scam. If I want something, I am perfectly happy to pay for it. But I will not purchase a CHANCE to get it, When I pay money, I have a perfectly logical right to expect to get what I want.
Or perhaps they are theme builds, and their theme only needed one framework. Why does that make them invalid?
So now nobody's build qualifies as "themed" unless it uses more than one framework? So if I roll out a build that uses 2 frameworks that's strong, are you going to roll that back to "no wait, what I meant was three frameworks"?
It's starting to sound like this isn't about theme at all, and the phrase you should be using is "multi-framework builds".
Here's a build that picks from 3 frameworks. It's themed themey theme is "Conjurer". This is also an example of a build that was directly enabled by the changes the current team have made to frameworks.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Going to have to side with you on this one. For I was not meaning that at all when I said theme builds. Cause, yes, a build centered around a single power frame because that is the character's theme, is a theme build. Of course, not everyone who does that does that for theme. They do that for optimal power. And it is easier to build for optimal power in a single power set, in most cases anyways.
Though, of course, some people will consider things like forms, passives, self heals, etc, to be thematic for their purposes. So, sometimes something you'd think could fit in most builds won't fit into a person's theme.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I still don't get why someone would limit themselves for the sake of an icon. It's fine that they do of course, but they have to accept that that limitation is self-imposed and not a fault of the game. They even took all the VFX off of passives/forms to make them theme-neutral.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
I'll post a list of my toons:
Fenrir - Bestial
Fenris Ω Mk.XIII: PA
Ifrit: Fire
Galen: Unarmed
Spirit of CoX: TK Blade
Spirit of ToS: Laser Sword
Those all use a single framework. They are mono"themed" builds. For example, Fenrir is a wolf, his theme is that he is a wolf and thus he uses Bestial because that fits his theme. Should I give him Dual Pistols because otherwise he doesn't qualify as a theme?
Anyways, let's move on. Then for dual themed builds I have:
Tiamat: Fire/Ice
Chief Alistar: Gadgeteer/Munitions
Here you'll probably say that Fire/Ice were built to work together, and Gadgeteer/Munitions is too same-y. So let's move on
Kaiser Behemoth: Might/Earth/Lightning
Griever: Lightning/Wind/Force
Madeen: Telepathy/Telekinetic/Sorcery
You've probably seen these toons of mine. One is my main tank that I used to run Cosmics all day long with ez pz (though at the time he was Infernal/Earth/Lightning). The last one is my CC. All viable builds
And finally:
Belphegor: Might/Fighting Claws/Bestial/Unarmed/"Chains" if that counts as a different powerframe
This one I just went nuts ^_^
All of the characters I listed here have functional builds that are able to perform above average in Cosmics and I had a theme in mind for all of them when I created.
So I think it's high time we drop the "muh theme" argument as an excuse for not knowing how to make a build.
^^^ this x 100000. I have a lot of people telling me "No, I don't take that passive cause muh theme.", "I went with X form instead of X form cause MUUUh theme", "No, I can't pick that spec tree cause M U H T H E M E"
Mofo spec tree??? really? You do know that your passive, form or spec tree do not affect the way your toon looks or behaves at all.
It's one thing to say "look, these bullets do not fit my gun" but this is a case of having a completely functional pistol and shooting yourself in the foot with a banana. I'll let you figure out how that would work.
begin rant!
group 2: "i build around a theme too but i don't blah blah"
YOU BOTH ARE BOZOS
every single bum that plays this game has a theme
the pvper who wants to leave everyone rekt and min max... that is a theme
the blackredder... yeah that is a theme too
even the doofus who doesn't understand the difference between copyright infringement and homage... is a theme sadly
here's the thing, these are the two groups in a general view:
Group 1's definition of theme: visual appeal + whatever their head cannon (and that is usually IT)
Group 2's definition of theme: everything in Group 1 + mechanical / synergy appeal
to further elaborate, here's a group 1's example:
biiiiig huuuuuuge strong dumbo that uses invuln+enrage because he supposed to be super strong and tough and ANGRY
but uses something like pistols to fight...
Group 2 is usually gonna have a fit when they see that
bottom line: theme is not the issue... it never WAS the issue
mechanical / synergy that supports a wide array of themes is the issue and that is limited by what is available from the game and whatever group 2 buildmasters can cook up (and group 2 does have some very good builders right here in this thread)
stop being bozos and arguing about theme (BOTH GROUPS) and instead of playing heroes in a game, be actual heroes by:
1) asking for mechanical / synergy help to make your theme work, if you wanna do harder content
2) providing mechanical / synergy help with absolute minimum power replacement (keep input concise)
(yes some of you do all that but this is for those who can't get past the theme detour roadblock)
theme is just a distraction from the actual issue, because themes are just way too much fun
P.S.: I mostly fall under group 1 category >.>