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Heroic demons in CO?

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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    I suspect they changed the look because the original was too hard to make in-game.
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    Nah. We've got wings, and we've got walking rotting corpses. Cryptic just made an aesthetic choice reflecting a different concept.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    Nah. We've got wings, and we've got walking rotting corpses. Cryptic just made an aesthetic choice reflecting a different concept.
    I meant having different left/right. It'd probably need a unique animation just to make one wing droop while the other is normal.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    screenshot_2018_06_18_23_09_00_by_marhawkman-dceuwq7.jpg

    So I made the new character(Pyrana). And here she is pondering the nature of the place where Kigatilik was sealed away....Is this even part of the "real" world?
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  • morigosamorigosa Posts: 696 Arc User
    I think there's a cave like that somewhere to the far east/south-east side of Canada. But I'm not sure if it's exactly the same one.

    As for heroic demons, I've got one that I think is reasonably lore-appropriate; she's designed as an ancient Sumerian demon (daemon?) whose morality does not entirely align with modern attitudes, but she's smart enough to avoid doing the sorts of things that would make enemies out of modern superheroes. ...On the other hand, it's debatable whether her origin is really the Netherworld or - as was mentioned previously - just an appropriate section of Faerie or Babylon.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    So I made the new character(Pyrana). And here she is pondering the nature of the place where Kigatilik was sealed away....Is this even part of the "real" world?

    There's a cave that's sacred to the Inuit that led or opened to the Frost Tomb, "a dimension of impenetrable ice," as it's described in both Champions Of The North and Champions Villains Vol. 1. That dimension was Kigatilik's prison.
    Post edited by bulgarex on
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    morigosa wrote: »
    As for heroic demons, I've got one that I think is reasonably lore-appropriate; she's designed as an ancient Sumerian demon (daemon?) whose morality does not entirely align with modern attitudes, but she's smart enough to avoid doing the sorts of things that would make enemies out of modern superheroes. ...On the other hand, it's debatable whether her origin is really the Netherworld or - as was mentioned previously - just an appropriate section of Faerie or Babylon.

    Well, there were a lot of demons in all Mesopotamian mythologies, many very cruel and destructive, a high percentage of them involved with spreading disease. Many of them dwelt in the Underworld, known to the Sumerians as Kur, a dreary cavern where the spirits of the dead resided. According to The Mystic World that Underworld is still part of the Champions Netherworld today, although after thousands of years without worship or much remembrance, there isn't a lot left of it.

    But the spirits which dwelt in Kur were not all evil -- some were benevolent and protective. Spirits which escaped Kur, evil or good, were called utukku. So there's precedent for the kind of "demon" you want.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    BTW The Mystic World also notes that many of the famous Abrahamic demons were once gods of peoples in Canaan, cast in that light by their Israelite rivals, with that interpretation spreading as the religions inspired by Judaism spread. How this played out metaphysically, is that those former gods, denied the sustenance of worship, transitioned to sustaining their existence and power the way most demons do -- by feeding upon the souls of the damned. (And sometimes on other lesser demons, if their underlings displease them.)

  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    which abrahamic demons are we talking about here? entities like lilith, azazel, asmodeus - stuff like that?​​
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    In this case I was referring to former gods of the peoples the Israelites shared the region with, who were "demonized" by them and their successors because they weren't the "true God," e.g. Beelzebub (Baal), Astaroth (Astarte), Moloch, and Dagon.

    The Mystic World notes that Beelzebub is the leader of these former gods in the Netherworld, and gained the title, "Emperor of Envy," due to jealousy of the God who supplanted him. (The "Sin Emperors" are the preeminent devils in the Descending Hierarchy, each an exemplar of one form of evil.)
    Post edited by bulgarex on
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    morigosa wrote: »
    I think there's a cave like that somewhere to the far east/south-east side of Canada. But I'm not sure if it's exactly the same one.
    bulgarex wrote: »
    So I made the new character(Pyrana). And here she is pondering the nature of the place where Kigatilik was sealed away....Is this even part of the "real" world?
    There's a cave that's sacred to the Inuit that led or opened to the Frost Tomb, "a dimension of impenetrable ice," as it's described in both Champions Of The North and Champions Villains Vol. 1. That dimension was Kigatilik's prison.
    OK, so that place Morigosa described is the entry point then? It looks radically different in the man game than the crisis but it seems to be the same place.
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Champions demon lore includes a selection of "ethnic" demonic opponents for heroic PCs from traditions around the world, over and above Kigatilik and Tilingkoot. Samhain, who has literally spread fear across the British Isles since time immemorial, is a corrupted form of the Wild Huntsman from Celtic mythology. Eretsun is a Xloptuny, a creature from Russian folklore, who preys on present-day Russians. The fearsome Living Sphinx more specifically hunts magical and spell-using beings; he hails from the Egyptian mythic realm, Ma'at. Survalesh of India left the Hindu hell of Naraka because he was bored with tormenting souls of the dead, and wanted to "play" with the living. Li Chun the Destroyer is a powerful Chinese demon possessing the body of a Taoist sorcerer-monk. The murderous Kagamishoki haunts Japan, manifesting from within and through mirrors. Marmoo is the master of insects in the legends of the aboriginal Anangu people of Australia, who wants to destroy everything beautiful in the world. The terrible Eclipsar wields vast powers of darkness, and is connected to the pre-Columbian cultures of the Andes Mountains. Baykok is a demon from the tradition of the Chippewa indigenous people of America, who hates and hunts all heroes; he's an especial enemy of the superhero Tomahawk of the Justice Squadron.

    Baykok, Eclipsar, Li Chun, the Living Sphinx, and Samhain are all written up in Champions Villains Vol. 3: Solo Villains. Eretsun and Survalesh get the same treatment in Champions Worldwide. Marmoo is detailed in Hidden Lands. Kagamishoki is only briefly described in Champions Universe, but got a full write-up in a book for the previous incarnation of the CU, called Watchers of the Dragon.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    Thank you for that, 'Beast. Twelve, yes. I briefly mentioned the Zodiac Working, and one of its products, the superhero Pagan, earlier on this thread, in the context of human/demon hybrids; but that was easy to overlook. Canonically only two offspring of that union have been identified. It need not be the only such demonic mating ever, of course, but was the biggest mass ceremony of its type, and using it would allow one to tie a PC into the larger legacy of Archimago. You can read more about the Zodiac Working in Champions Universe, or just go to the first post on my Unique Character Origins thread (which I recently updated and expanded BTW).

    I realize someone might look at the date of the Zodiac Working -- 1979 -- and think that's earlier than they would want their character to be born. But that can depend on a few factors. For one, The Mystic World p. 62 notes that, since the Ban prevents god-level beings from fully manifesting on Earth, they need human male seed as well to produce a child. So the demonic potential in one of these women could lie "fallow" until she becomes pregnant. While this next isn't officially stated anywhere, I don't think it would be unreasonable to take a cue from real genetics, and have that potential "skip a generation," manifesting in a grandchild of one of these women rather than a child. Particularly handy if you want a devilish pre-teen running around. :naughty:
  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 741 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    BTW The Mystic World also notes that many of the famous Abrahamic demons were once gods of peoples in Canaan, cast in that light by their Israelite rivals, with that interpretation spreading as the religions inspired by Judaism spread. How this played out metaphysically, is that those former gods, denied the sustenance of worship, transitioned to sustaining their existence and power the way most demons do -- by feeding upon the souls of the damned. (And sometimes on other lesser demons, if their underlings displease them.)

    Kind of like a reverse-order Milton mythology, then? Gods become demons, rather than demons being worshipped as gods.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    Milton is, not surprisingly, one of the many sources The Mystic World's author Dean Shomshak drew upon for his definition of the Netherworld. E.g. the administrative center of the Descending Hierarchy is the town-sized palace of Pandemonium. ;)

    How you perceive the situation definitely applies in a number of cases. But the line between "god" and "demon" can get blurry at times. Several "ethnic hells" from earlier mythologies exist in the Netherworld, ruled by beings who are technically still gods, such as the Greek Hades and Norse Hel. Conversely, demons have been worshiped as gods in the past, on Champions Earth as on real Earth; but in the former the past extends a great deal farther back, and that worship could be very widespread. On Champs Earth enough worship over a long enough period can transform another type of being into a god. At the height of his ancient empire Takofanes was worshiped by millions, which actually translated into godly power for him.

    Dean Shomshak never tried to lawyer all the details too closely. Like the other Hero Games authors, he wanted to leave room for exceptions suiting the desires of individual Game Masters and their players. An entertaining story is more important than a legally binding one. :)
  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,133 Arc User
    The unspoken bit here is that Champions uses the same idea as some fantasy tales - that the power of a given god depends on the number and fervor of his worshipers. When enough worshipers are lost, the god becomes no more than a demon or demigod.

    I took advantage of this in creating Kilbern Skyfather - at his height, during the Turakian Age, he was the chief of the gods, but bound most of his power into his sword Aurelia in order to seal the tomb of Takofanes the Undying. He'd retired to a quiet corner of Elysium, slowly losing power as his worshipers died out... Then, in 1987, the Tomb was opened. Kilbern could feel the disturbance as Aurelia was removed and the Lich-King's tomb opened. He spent most of his remaining power crossing the Elysian fields against the wishes of the other gods there, leaving him weak enough to evade the Ban. He manifested directly on Earth, but with only the power of a beginning superhero. Now he strives to become famous enough (the modern equivalent of worship) to gain the power to defeat Takofanes permanently.

    (Fortunately, I had the advice of Bulgarex in working all this out. I'd have had no clue otherwise. :smile: )
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    I'm glad that worked out for you, Jon. =)

    Declining worship can be fatal for a god. If they're deprived of it for long enough they can spiritually "starve to death." Many of the gods from the antediluvian eras of Earth's forgotten prehistory dissipated long ago. OTOH a god may evolve as the nature of its worshipers' belief in it evolves. For example, Ares was the war god of the Atlanteans when they ruled the surface world, but their conception of him was more of a brave, noble warrior; and he was also god of the dead and ruler of the Underworld. It's quite possible many of the gods alive today are in a sense much older than recorded history. But gods always "remember" their own past as most of their worshipers imagine it.

    I've pondered that process in the case of Therakiel. The outcome of Lucifer's rebellion against God isn't specifically referenced anywhere else in Champions books; but it may be that Therakiel isn't exactly who and what he thinks he is, and his fall didn't happen, or happened differently from what he remembers. But Therakiel behaves as though all of that is true, so in practical terms it makes no difference.
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    I see a notice of a new post here from bluegrassbeast, but there's no post visible in my browser. Can anyone else read it? :/
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,341 Arc User
    shadowbanned, just like gradii​​
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    yeah, I got notified of 3 new posts, but only see two.
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  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,105 Arc User
    bulgarex wrote: »
    I see a notice of a new post here from bluegrassbeast, but there's no post visible in my browser. Can anyone else read it? :/

    As shadowfang said, BGB has been shadowbanned. They can make posts, and to them their posts appear in a thread and it all looks normal. Others can't see their posts though, so to BGB it just looks like no one is responding to them.

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  • ealford1985ealford1985 Posts: 3,029 Arc User
    I thought I saw MG post in here...hmmm that’s odd.
  • themightyzeniththemightyzenith Posts: 4,105 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    I thought I saw MG post in here...hmmm that’s odd.

    O.O


    Edit; Damn you ratface, I actually had to go check the forums without being logged on to see if this was true

    *shakes fist*

    Post edited by themightyzenith on
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  • jonesing4jonesing4 Posts: 741 Arc User
    As shadowfang said, BGB has been shadowbanned. They can make posts, and to them their posts appear in a thread and it all looks normal. Others can't see their posts though, so to BGB it just looks like no one is responding to them.

    I didn't even know that was a thing. That sounds like the most passive-aggressive method of forum moderation possible, but whatever works, I guess.

    [Not to de-rail the OT any further, just found this interesting.]
  • beezeezebeezeeze Posts: 915 Arc User
    riverocean wrote: »
    While they may be rare in CO lore, this type of hero isn't entirely unkown in the comics genre as a whole. Here are a few "Demonic" themed superheroes from well-known Comics franchises.

    Etrigan:
    220px-Etrigan_batman_tas.jpg
    Demonoligist Jason Blood has been bonded with the Demon Etritgan. Can shift from human to demonic forms by chanting "Gone Gone the form of man. Become the Demon Etrigan".

    Daimon Hellstrom:
    latest?cb=20131219071947
    The son of an arch-demon and a mortal woman. Struggles with his demonic nature.

    Hellboy:
    latest?cb=20140726153114
    Everybody knows this guy right. Basically a demon pulled into our realm and raised as human.

    Satana:
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    The sister of Damion Hellstrom. More of an anti-heroine as she's prone to devouring souls. But occasionally fights on the side of the good guys. A great archetype of a classic Succubus.

    And of course various other examples like Raven, Illyana Rasputin, Blue Devil, and Ghost Rider. What's kind of cool about these sorts of characters, is their internal conflicts. They struggle to do good despite having inner demonic natures. Also, there's a variety of origin ideas for them. Everything from having a demonic parent, escaping from hell, and possession of a human host.

    [I do agree with Bulgarex's rant. I see a lot of supernatural creatures hanging out in RenCen that are kind of out-of-place in supers game. But CO's character creator is so versatile, that's probably unavoidable. Plus, we do seem to be battling lots of supernatural threats lately. So I guess it evens out. :D

    Beez is basically a girl hellboy.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    Oh yeah, here's my new character:
    flamingcutscenec_by_marhawkman-dcf76ax.png
    Pyrana takes heavy inspiration from the female villain-rank Fire Demons. But... since she's not a fire demon I decided to have her use Celestial powers with their default colors.... because it looks cool. :D
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,534 Arc User
    I'm rather curious: For those of you wanting to play a "good" demon, what's the appeal to that type of character for you? What sets it apart from any of the other extremely wide range of choices available in the supers genre?
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,435 Arc User
    Because demons are people too? :p honestly, part of my question was based on how the female Fire Demons remind me of Scorch in their "human" form.
    latest?cb=20120602055051
    Scorch wasn't really a hero, but she was written as a person with powers who was trying to figure out what to do with them.
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