I see a notice of a new post here from bluegrassbeast, but there's no post visible in my browser. Can anyone else read it?
As shadowfang said, BGB has been shadowbanned. They can make posts, and to them their posts appear in a thread and it all looks normal. Others can't see their posts though, so to BGB it just looks like no one is responding to them.
As shadowfang said, BGB has been shadowbanned. They can make posts, and to them their posts appear in a thread and it all looks normal. Others can't see their posts though, so to BGB it just looks like no one is responding to them.
I didn't even know that was a thing. That sounds like the most passive-aggressive method of forum moderation possible, but whatever works, I guess.
[Not to de-rail the OT any further, just found this interesting.]
While they may be rare in CO lore, this type of hero isn't entirely unkown in the comics genre as a whole. Here are a few "Demonic" themed superheroes from well-known Comics franchises.
Etrigan:
Demonoligist Jason Blood has been bonded with the Demon Etritgan. Can shift from human to demonic forms by chanting "Gone Gone the form of man. Become the Demon Etrigan".
Daimon Hellstrom:
The son of an arch-demon and a mortal woman. Struggles with his demonic nature.
Hellboy:
Everybody knows this guy right. Basically a demon pulled into our realm and raised as human.
Satana:
The sister of Damion Hellstrom. More of an anti-heroine as she's prone to devouring souls. But occasionally fights on the side of the good guys. A great archetype of a classic Succubus.
And of course various other examples like Raven, Illyana Rasputin, Blue Devil, and Ghost Rider. What's kind of cool about these sorts of characters, is their internal conflicts. They struggle to do good despite having inner demonic natures. Also, there's a variety of origin ideas for them. Everything from having a demonic parent, escaping from hell, and possession of a human host.
[I do agree with Bulgarex's rant. I see a lot of supernatural creatures hanging out in RenCen that are kind of out-of-place in supers game. But CO's character creator is so versatile, that's probably unavoidable. Plus, we do seem to be battling lots of supernatural threats lately. So I guess it evens out.
Oh yeah, here's my new character:
Pyrana takes heavy inspiration from the female villain-rank Fire Demons. But... since she's not a fire demon I decided to have her use Celestial powers with their default colors.... because it looks cool.
I'm rather curious: For those of you wanting to play a "good" demon, what's the appeal to that type of character for you? What sets it apart from any of the other extremely wide range of choices available in the supers genre?
Because demons are people too? honestly, part of my question was based on how the female Fire Demons remind me of Scorch in their "human" form.
Scorch wasn't really a hero, but she was written as a person with powers who was trying to figure out what to do with them.
because 3D entities that can choose their path for themselves are way more interesting than moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villains who never stray from the evil path?
Probably because of the room for inner, personal drama? I.e., the very nature of the creature is "evil" which means that trying to go good is inherently very difficult. Story telling usually involves some sort of conflict somewhere. At least, that's the line I use for my good vampire Deacon Blood.
because 3D entities that can choose their path for themselves are way more interesting than moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villains who never stray from the evil path?
But isn't that true of villains from any background? What does demonic heritage bring that other backgrounds don't, as you see it?
Probably because of the room for inner, personal drama? I.e., the very nature of the creature is "evil" which means that trying to go good is inherently very difficult. Story telling usually involves some sort of conflict somewhere. At least, that's the line I use for my good vampire Deacon Blood.
I understand that, and agree. But many characters, including superheroes, struggle with internal conflicts from a wide variety of causes. Clark Kent fights to maintain his self-control and principles against the temptation to use his vast power however he wants. Peter Parker is torn between his desire for a normal happy life and his dedication to using his abilities responsibly. Bruce Wayne strives to keep his obsession with justice from crossing into becoming judge and executioner. Tony Stark's huge ego impedes his efforts to move from a selfish world-view to a selfless one.
Having to fight internal evil because one is a creature which is "naturally" evil just seems, I dunno, kind of simplistic to me.
Enh, Peter Parker is a different character than Pyrana(who merely looks like a demon). He does different things for different reasons. This is a different set of reasons. Humans aren't naturally GOOD. Humans are at best neutral by nature.
It's rather compelling when you take a being who was CREATED to do evil but chooses not to. Like with Terminators.... SOME Terminators are forcibly reprogrammed to serve humans.... some rare cases CHOOSE to fight Skynet. Like the Terminator that assumed the identity of Catherine Weaver.... it simply didn't want to follow Skynet's orders. The T-1001 clearly wasn't a mindless machine. It CHOSE to take over managing a corporation.... and actually did a reasonably good job of it. Demons have the ability to make choices too.
It's like the old nature/nurture debate. How much of a person's personality is what they were born to be and how much is what they choose to be?
I'm rather curious: For those of you wanting to play a "good" demon, what's the appeal to that type of character for you? What sets it apart from any of the other extremely wide range of choices available in the supers genre?
I actually have one character that's supposed to be an evil demon, which I made as a bit of a "challenge" since I don't play evil/bad/villain characters. I wanted to try out the Darkness powerset and, thinking it would be odd if a "good" hero would tap into "dark" powers to mete out justice, I went for a bad guy that was forced to do good. So the character is named Thrall, and he uses a combination of classic villain colors (black, green, purple), but as a contrast and for theme, he's got shining, golden bracers that are kind of mystical shackles that compel him to use his powers for good.
I dunno how any of that sits with Champions lore but I thought it was a pretty decent way to try out the "evil" type of powers on a "good" guy.
So I made the new character(Pyrana). And here she is pondering the nature of the place where Kigatilik was sealed away....Is this even part of the "real" world?
Yeah, but the ice is melted into water. It is in the southeast part of Canada, with lots of floating purple spirits and stuff all around.
I actually have one character that's supposed to be an evil demon, which I made as a bit of a "challenge" since I don't play evil/bad/villain characters. I wanted to try out the Darkness powerset and, thinking it would be odd if a "good" hero would tap into "dark" powers to mete out justice, I went for a bad guy that was forced to do good. So the character is named Thrall, and he uses a combination of classic villain colors (black, green, purple), but as a contrast and for theme, he's got shining, golden bracers that are kind of mystical shackles that compel him to use his powers for good.
I dunno how any of that sits with Champions lore but I thought it was a pretty decent way to try out the "evil" type of powers on a "good" guy.
Thank you for your input. I can't think of anything official that says you can't make a character like that. FWIW I think it's a clever idea, and an interesting role-reversal challenge from a role-playing perspective.
Just FYI, genre-wise darkness powers don't necessarily have to be "evil" just by virtue of being "dark." Sure, you have the likes of Cloak from Cloak and Dagger, for whom that's true; but several comic-book true heroes use some form of dark matter/energy, e.g. Darkstar, Nightshade, the Shroud. In the Champions Universe the leader of the famous Sentinels hero team, Black Rose, has dark powers.
My research suggests hints of corrupting Darkforce influence in relation to specific users, e.g. Cloak and Darkhawk; but not generally or definitively stated.
The dark energy wielded by the previously mentioned Champs hero Black Rose does have a "spiritually corrosive" side effect, but a strong disciplined will can withstand that.
My reasoning (for the one demonic character I ever created) was that demons were originally created without much self-will - they're dedicated instruments of evil, not "people" as such - but since they arise from the Imaginal Realms, as humans began broadening their tastes in fantasy to include new paradigms, the concept of the Risen Demon became, well, a thing. Risen came in response to this concept; in essence, humanity "dreamed" him into existence. The downside, of course, is that the dream still includes his personal immortality - and one day, the dream could turn again, and he could be forced to return to his former existence as a servant of Evil, to be tormented eternally by memories of when he was something more...
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Thank you for your input. I can't think of anything official that says you can't make a character like that. FWIW I think it's a clever idea, and an interesting role-reversal challenge from a role-playing perspective.
Just FYI, genre-wise darkness powers don't necessarily have to be "evil" just by virtue of being "dark." Sure, you have the likes of Cloak from Cloak and Dagger, for whom that's true; but several comic-book true heroes use some form of dark matter/energy, e.g. Darkstar, Nightshade, the Shroud. In the Champions Universe the leader of the famous Sentinels hero team, Black Rose, has dark powers.
I actually had the wrong powerset, it was the Infernal powerset that the character had. I don't know much at all about the sorcery sets, I just knew it was some evil-sounding stuff. :P
I'm rather curious: For those of you wanting to play a "good" demon, what's the appeal to that type of character for you? What sets it apart from any of the other extremely wide range of choices available in the supers genre?
A couple of reasons for my Luna Dusksoul. First, she's an homage to the devil/demon/fiend becomes hero archtype as I indicated before.
Secondly, Luna's "redemption" is a theme that appealed to me. Sure, that can be done with a regular person too. But when an inspiring concept pops into my head I just need to run with it.
Thirdly, the idea of having a devil character using the Radiant AT just made me giggle.
My demon and devil are small, child-like beings. L'il Imp was left behind by a DEMON summoning, and even forgotten by the heroes that blew the DEMON chantry into rubble. That Little Devil ("I'M NOT A DEMON!") was summoned by an idiot that wanted a succubus, and instead got a pretty useless devil, and tried (and failed, because idiot) to kill her. Neither are 'EVIL', but Imp is mischievous, and Devil is hyper and wants to ask questions all the time. I play them because they are cute, and fun to RP with.
The origin I eventually settled on for Pyrana ws that she's actually more like an Irradiate, just not murderously insane, and with powers based on heat and radiation manipulation. And her appearance looks like a demon as a coincidence really.
Daemon is a word that was twisted by certain religious factions into the word demon it is today. A daemon is a spirit of nature that is no more inherently evil than humanity. Many mythical creatures have been turned into evil monsters simply because one religion wanted another one stamped out.
My lvl 40 champs in random order.
=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=Lung the punch drunk monk=
=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
=Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=
My FF is a daemon. I play zombie/cursed type toons for the most part. A big reason for this is to show that doing evil/ bad is not a look but an act. Just like an act of kindness. I firmly believe there are no absolutes.
My lvl 40 champs in random order.
=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=Lung the punch drunk monk=
=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
=Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=
My FF is a daemon. I play zombie/cursed type toons for the most part. A big reason for this is to show that doing evil/ bad is not a look but an act. Just like an act of kindness. I firmly believe there are no absolutes.
My point is there are people that are more prone to "evil" but that does not mean they are incapable of ever doing a good deed. Even a liar can tell the truth. An evil act does not equate to an evil being. I have a mandate. I don't like mandates. lol! Ah the duality of humanity .....
My lvl 40 champs in random order.
=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=Lung the punch drunk monk=
=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
=Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=
Daemon is a word that was twisted by certain religious factions into the word demon it is today. A daemon is a spirit of nature that is no more inherently evil than humanity. Many mythical creatures have been turned into evil monsters simply because one religion wanted another one stamped out.
That is unquestionably true. However, that process has a very practical impact on the cosmology of the Champions Universe. The "demons" and "gods" of all stripes that people on Champions Earth may interact directly with, are generated by the collective imagination and belief of the human race. That doesn't mean there can't be "real" versions of gods -- Champions lore takes no religious stand. Most demons, especially the "devils" of the Abrahamic faiths, are true embodiments of evil, because that's what most people imagine them to be. Moreover, as the way people conceive of these entities evolves over time, their form, personality, even memories, mutate to conform to the newer conception. Hence while the prevalent daemons of the past were almost certainly as you describe them, contemporary demons usually conform to the pattern of popular belief. To elaborate on your own example, some prominent devils of today were gods in ancient Canaan who were "demonized" by their neighbors the Israelites, and as the Abrahamic religions spread those gods were transformed.
That being said, there's no reason exceptions can't exist. Human belief, even in a particular religion, is never monolithic -- variations occur among particular populations or across distinct regions, following popular ideas more than literate orthodoxy. In fact, the concept of a "redeemable" demon is rather fashionable in current pop culture in the Western world, which in all likelihood has impacted the way some demons behave, or even spawned a corner of the Netherworld (the Astral dimension that's a mosaic of all the Hells known to Man) where such demons congregate.
(The above cosmology is described in detail in The Mystic World, the PnP source book for the occult side of the Champions Universe.)
My FF is a daemon. I play zombie/cursed type toons for the most part. A big reason for this is to show that doing evil/ bad is not a look but an act. Just like an act of kindness. I firmly believe there are no absolutes.
As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I see many "cursed" types of supernatural creatures among the PCs in Champions Online, and as a trend that saddens me. While such characters definitely aren't unknown in the comic-book superhero genre, they've always been the exception, which is part of what makes them special. I realize that many gamers come to CO from other RPGs, notably fantasy; and as they frequently lack much experience with comic books their instinct is to translate what they're familiar with to this game. But there's such vastly wider potential for character backgrounds in this setting, as in comic books in general, that I feel players are missing out on many other role-playing opportunities.
That's one big reason why I make "lore" posts to these forums -- to apprise players of the range of choices available to them.
My last post is gone/deleted so I guess the topics closed lol. Sad.
My lvl 40 champs in random order.
=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=Lung the punch drunk monk=
=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
=Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=
My last post is gone/deleted so I guess the topics closed lol. Sad.
Not as far as I can tell, unless you posted something between April 18 and today which isn't on the thread. But plainly it's still open should anyone have more to contribute.
I always ask the epistemological question: how do you know?
Take, for example, the heroine who believes she was given her powers directly from God (I don't remember her name). Was she? It is unlikely you or I will ever know for sure. There are certainly any number of entities capable of posing as God long enough to fool someone (as well as any number who actually believe they are God with a capital G). There are certainly any number of groups whose interests might be served by altering someone's memories to think they met with a god and forgot how they really got their powers. And there are certainly any number of rather ordinary lunatics who are convinced they've met or are God for no particular reason. Any or even several of these could be true.
In the latter wise, I have often been fascinated by what I consider to be the core question for any hero: why on Earth would you risk your life and spend lots of time and energy being a 'hero' when you could much more easily profit off your abilities or even do nothing and watch TV and eat pizza? This was the question interrogated by the original 'Watchmen' comic (insanity of various degrees was often the answer) and to a lesser extent by the 'Wild Cards' series (their answer was that most actually don't... you just don't hear of them so much).
If someone wakes up one day with red skin and horns and LITERALLY ON FIRE, they're not likely to think, "Huh. That's odd." They will probably believe they'd in some way been possessed, warped, or touched by a demon, and they'll probably be treated in that way by most people whether they are or not. Working as a file clerk is probably out of the question. In this way all the elves, demons, and even Batmen we see around Millennium City may not be a manifestation of portals to other universes, but rather an expression of the common man's inability to explain the uncommon. Are you going to tell a ten-foot wall of muscle that he's nuts?
In our normal world we already see normal crazy people who have beliefs that they will not be shaken out of. "I am a robot." "You look just like a person." "I am like the Terminator... it's just superficial." "Here is an x-ray... you are human all the way through." "I was built to fool x-rays." "You eat food and make waste, and don't use energy." "I have a VERY advanced system."
In this way almost any deviation can be explained even when it contradicts with how people think the universe is (and how do they know THAT anyway?) and I don't find it farfetched to agree with 'Watchmen' that most heroes are at least a little nuts. It may seem like a cop-out or a cheat, but ask yourself: how do you know that you're a human? Maybe you aren't but the circumstances which reveal the difference just haven't arrived yet...
Demons tend to have their demonic tendencies (and memories) right along; if you just wake up one day with horns and wings and hooves in a superheroic world, you're more likely to assume you've undergone some sort of mutation. As for superheroes being "nuts", well, I suppose if altruism and a genuine desire to make the world a better place than you found it is foreign to you, superheroes might seem crazy. To others, however, it might seem the rational response - "with great power comes great responsibility", and all that. (What made the heroes in Watchmen seem crazy was that none of them actually had powers, just fancy costumes.)
The question, incidentally, was also posed in the player's section of the Champions 3rd Edition rulebook. Quoting from memory (and I have no doubt that if my memory is flawed, someone will correct me):
The air conditioning is out in your building. It's been a long day, but the lovely person of the opposite gender who lives across the hall has agreed to come over for dinner. Wine is on ice, and romance is in the air - that is, until the Crimson Death and the Chartreuse Doom kidnap the Mayor. What motivates your character to abandon a promising evening to go and rescue a mayor who maintains that all superheroes are costumed vigilantes who deserve a jail cell?
(That section also has my favorite description of the essence of a character as "more than just a pile of points that indicates your character can pick up a car, eat the tires, and throw the rest a country mile.")
As for motivations? The Risen, my own "heroic demon", aspires to "rise" to the status of angel, and perhaps be allowed access to a Heaven in the Imaginal Realms. (For more normal characters, Starfall is atoning for his despair after losing his family to the 2009 Qularr Invasion; Sonrise seeks to honor his late father's legacy; Shadowbringer wants to defend the realm of his birth from the threat of the Qliphothic, from whence he received his power; Happifun Security System X-4 is following its preprogrammed directives; and so on - each one has his or her own reasons.)
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
In the latter wise, I have often been fascinated by what I consider to be the core question for any hero: why on Earth would you risk your life and spend lots of time and energy being a 'hero' when you could much more easily profit off your abilities or even do nothing and watch TV and eat pizza? This was the question interrogated by the original 'Watchmen' comic (insanity of various degrees was often the answer) and to a lesser extent by the 'Wild Cards' series (their answer was that most actually don't... you just don't hear of them so much).
You could ask much the same question of a police officer, or firefighter, or professional soldier. Those jobs are inherently dangerous, without a lot of financial remuneration, and for most of them not much fame or glory. As with most human beings their motivations are probably mixed; but I'm confident one big commonality is their desire to be of service, to protect people, and to make the world a better place. Superheroes just have the means to do so on a larger scale than the average person. In mainstream comic-book worlds, which the Champions Universe was built to evoke, the colorful costumes and code names are just a convention that's been built up since WW II, to the point where it's natural for people to expect them.
BTW the Champions Universe source book notes that many people with superhuman powers don't have the type or magnitude of powers suiting them for the superhero (or villain) lifestyle, and even those who do often choose not to follow that career path. It's estimated there are about 6,000 people worldwide with super-powers. Of those roughly 40% both have the level of power to become costumed supers, and actually do. But others have found other ways to be of service to society and/or themselves. For example, Jeff Baker, a mutant with the power to transform inanimate matter, founded his own construction company, Trans-City Construction, which has become very successful and highly regarded, specializing in extremely rapid construction projects, and repairs/cleanup after damaging events, including super battles. Dr. Jeremiah Mugumbe's healing powers have done more to diminish the threat of AIDS in Africa than all the pharmaceutical companies of the world combined.
So I was talking to someone in game of a Supernatural detective agency. His words was Scooby Doo theme, but Supernatural characters instead. His character was a Frankenstein and I have a Wiccan. I believe that couldn’t fit because MCPD would be very skeptical on supernatural solving cases. Is the Hellboy/Supernatural theme agency possible?
Honestly, I don't see why it wouldn't be. Police forces are always skeptical of "amateurs" trying to solve serious cases; but that doesn't stop them from trying to do it. As long as they don't break any laws or interfere with police investigations, the police really can't prevent them from acting. And as you pointed out with your example, the amateur sleuth is a feature of a popular and well-established genre of fiction. All you need for your concept is a world in which the supernatural exists, and which has people who know it and understand it. Which is the world this community plays in.
Perfect. Thank you! Just seeing your comment on supernatural being superheroes bums me. I love the supernatural world of vampires, werewolves, etc in genres, but it’s hard to insert in a world such as CO. Also, with doing so, would the agency need to be a secret? Magic according to humans isn’t real, so how would a vampire or werewolf explain if they were caught?
Why would they? The Vampire/Werewolf could be a super with powers that mimic a part particular concept of Werewolf/Vampire. How would anyone prove they weren't?
mordray001 makes a very good point. There are all sorts of mutants, mutates, aliens, constructs in the CU who happen to resemble classic supernatural entities, but aren't based on magic at all. The world has gotten rather used to that reality over the past eight decades. But while the majority of people on Champions Earth don't believe in the supernatural, that's very different from banning or ostracizing people who do. In the real world we have people who believe in magic, ghosts, the power of crystals, and similar things, and they're allowed to practice their beliefs. Even much of modern religion is in a real sense "supernatural." Governmental and supra-governmental organizations devote resources to studying and countering threats from the occult, so at least some official organs know this stuff exists.
That said, for centuries the members of the Mystic World subculture have kept their activities secret from the inhabitants of the mundane world, and that tradition mostly persists to this day. OTOH the Age of Superheroes has seen the rise of powerful sorcerers, and the return of gods and other mythic creatures, who openly proclaim their presence and nature. Bottom line, if you want your group to be public a la Ghostbusters, most people will probably think you're crackpots, but if you keep your noses clean they shouldn't give you trouble. But there are also enough believers around that if you're looking for contacts or clients, you should be able to find them.
It's even possible to earn a living within this subculture, if you know the right channels. As one example, the supervillain Harpy (Champions Villains. Vol. 3) uses alchemy to transform herself into a powerful half-bird-woman, and often hires herself out to mystic supervillains who want extra muscle to use against fellow spell-casters who aren't used to countering physical threats.
Sorry. I think I may have answered my own question. So if someone is able to “magically” control fire, humans could see it as a man dressed as a wizard able to control fire through technology, but they will never know if it’s technology or possibly something else of science.
I may have answered my question, but forgot the meaning of that previous comment.
Or the person could have a psionic pyrokinetic power. Or secretes and expels inflammatory chemicals. Or emits radiation that stimulates molecules to ignition temperature. Or any other comic-book science rationale. In a world where that sort of "science" is known and understood (at least by some), it often seems a much more reasonable explanation than magic.
Perfect. Thank you! Just seeing your comment on supernatural being superheroes bums me. I love the supernatural world of vampires, werewolves, etc in genres, but it’s hard to insert in a world such as CO. Also, with doing so, would the agency need to be a secret? Magic according to humans isn’t real, so how would a vampire or werewolf explain if they were caught?
Actually, CO is much easier to insert such things into than most comic-book worlds, because while the PnP Champions Earth allows for their existence, in CO they're common and running around openly terrorizing people. Whether or not the average person believes they're supernatural, their existence is undeniable.
Well, a tabletop RPG group need to all be on the same page for it to function. An MMO is a random smorgasbord of people, and its players will play what they want, whether it makes sense setting-wise or not.
Comments
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My characters
As shadowfang said, BGB has been shadowbanned. They can make posts, and to them their posts appear in a thread and it all looks normal. Others can't see their posts though, so to BGB it just looks like no one is responding to them.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
O.O
Edit; Damn you ratface, I actually had to go check the forums without being logged on to see if this was true
*shakes fist*
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
I didn't even know that was a thing. That sounds like the most passive-aggressive method of forum moderation possible, but whatever works, I guess.
[Not to de-rail the OT any further, just found this interesting.]
Beez is basically a girl hellboy.
Pyrana takes heavy inspiration from the female villain-rank Fire Demons. But... since she's not a fire demon I decided to have her use Celestial powers with their default colors.... because it looks cool.
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My characters
Scorch wasn't really a hero, but she was written as a person with powers who was trying to figure out what to do with them.
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My characters
Probably because of the room for inner, personal drama? I.e., the very nature of the creature is "evil" which means that trying to go good is inherently very difficult. Story telling usually involves some sort of conflict somewhere. At least, that's the line I use for my good vampire Deacon Blood.
But isn't that true of villains from any background? What does demonic heritage bring that other backgrounds don't, as you see it?
I understand that, and agree. But many characters, including superheroes, struggle with internal conflicts from a wide variety of causes. Clark Kent fights to maintain his self-control and principles against the temptation to use his vast power however he wants. Peter Parker is torn between his desire for a normal happy life and his dedication to using his abilities responsibly. Bruce Wayne strives to keep his obsession with justice from crossing into becoming judge and executioner. Tony Stark's huge ego impedes his efforts to move from a selfish world-view to a selfless one.
Having to fight internal evil because one is a creature which is "naturally" evil just seems, I dunno, kind of simplistic to me.
It's rather compelling when you take a being who was CREATED to do evil but chooses not to. Like with Terminators.... SOME Terminators are forcibly reprogrammed to serve humans.... some rare cases CHOOSE to fight Skynet. Like the Terminator that assumed the identity of Catherine Weaver.... it simply didn't want to follow Skynet's orders. The T-1001 clearly wasn't a mindless machine. It CHOSE to take over managing a corporation.... and actually did a reasonably good job of it. Demons have the ability to make choices too.
It's like the old nature/nurture debate. How much of a person's personality is what they were born to be and how much is what they choose to be?
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My characters
I actually have one character that's supposed to be an evil demon, which I made as a bit of a "challenge" since I don't play evil/bad/villain characters. I wanted to try out the Darkness powerset and, thinking it would be odd if a "good" hero would tap into "dark" powers to mete out justice, I went for a bad guy that was forced to do good. So the character is named Thrall, and he uses a combination of classic villain colors (black, green, purple), but as a contrast and for theme, he's got shining, golden bracers that are kind of mystical shackles that compel him to use his powers for good.
I dunno how any of that sits with Champions lore but I thought it was a pretty decent way to try out the "evil" type of powers on a "good" guy.
Yeah, but the ice is melted into water. It is in the southeast part of Canada, with lots of floating purple spirits and stuff all around.
Edit: Here's the place:
Thank you for your input.
Just FYI, genre-wise darkness powers don't necessarily have to be "evil" just by virtue of being "dark." Sure, you have the likes of Cloak from Cloak and Dagger, for whom that's true; but several comic-book true heroes use some form of dark matter/energy, e.g. Darkstar, Nightshade, the Shroud. In the Champions Universe the leader of the famous Sentinels hero team, Black Rose, has dark powers.
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The dark energy wielded by the previously mentioned Champs hero Black Rose does have a "spiritually corrosive" side effect, but a strong disciplined will can withstand that.
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- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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I actually had the wrong powerset, it was the Infernal powerset that the character had. I don't know much at all about the sorcery sets, I just knew it was some evil-sounding stuff. :P
A couple of reasons for my Luna Dusksoul. First, she's an homage to the devil/demon/fiend becomes hero archtype as I indicated before.
Secondly, Luna's "redemption" is a theme that appealed to me. Sure, that can be done with a regular person too. But when an inspiring concept pops into my head I just need to run with it.
Thirdly, the idea of having a devil character using the Radiant AT just made me giggle.
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My characters
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=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
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=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
=Nimravid=Buzzard Kill=Lorenzini=Schema=
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=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
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=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=
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That is unquestionably true. However, that process has a very practical impact on the cosmology of the Champions Universe. The "demons" and "gods" of all stripes that people on Champions Earth may interact directly with, are generated by the collective imagination and belief of the human race. That doesn't mean there can't be "real" versions of gods -- Champions lore takes no religious stand. Most demons, especially the "devils" of the Abrahamic faiths, are true embodiments of evil, because that's what most people imagine them to be. Moreover, as the way people conceive of these entities evolves over time, their form, personality, even memories, mutate to conform to the newer conception. Hence while the prevalent daemons of the past were almost certainly as you describe them, contemporary demons usually conform to the pattern of popular belief. To elaborate on your own example, some prominent devils of today were gods in ancient Canaan who were "demonized" by their neighbors the Israelites, and as the Abrahamic religions spread those gods were transformed.
That being said, there's no reason exceptions can't exist. Human belief, even in a particular religion, is never monolithic -- variations occur among particular populations or across distinct regions, following popular ideas more than literate orthodoxy. In fact, the concept of a "redeemable" demon is rather fashionable in current pop culture in the Western world, which in all likelihood has impacted the way some demons behave, or even spawned a corner of the Netherworld (the Astral dimension that's a mosaic of all the Hells known to Man) where such demons congregate.
(The above cosmology is described in detail in The Mystic World, the PnP source book for the occult side of the Champions Universe.)
As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I see many "cursed" types of supernatural creatures among the PCs in Champions Online, and as a trend that saddens me. While such characters definitely aren't unknown in the comic-book superhero genre, they've always been the exception, which is part of what makes them special. I realize that many gamers come to CO from other RPGs, notably fantasy; and as they frequently lack much experience with comic books their instinct is to translate what they're familiar with to this game. But there's such vastly wider potential for character backgrounds in this setting, as in comic books in general, that I feel players are missing out on many other role-playing opportunities.
That's one big reason why I make "lore" posts to these forums -- to apprise players of the range of choices available to them.
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=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=
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=By the sword=Scild Truma=Shadow Puppet=Lu-7=Erysichthon=
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Not as far as I can tell, unless you posted something between April 18 and today which isn't on the thread. But plainly it's still open should anyone have more to contribute.
Take, for example, the heroine who believes she was given her powers directly from God (I don't remember her name). Was she? It is unlikely you or I will ever know for sure. There are certainly any number of entities capable of posing as God long enough to fool someone (as well as any number who actually believe they are God with a capital G). There are certainly any number of groups whose interests might be served by altering someone's memories to think they met with a god and forgot how they really got their powers. And there are certainly any number of rather ordinary lunatics who are convinced they've met or are God for no particular reason. Any or even several of these could be true.
In the latter wise, I have often been fascinated by what I consider to be the core question for any hero: why on Earth would you risk your life and spend lots of time and energy being a 'hero' when you could much more easily profit off your abilities or even do nothing and watch TV and eat pizza? This was the question interrogated by the original 'Watchmen' comic (insanity of various degrees was often the answer) and to a lesser extent by the 'Wild Cards' series (their answer was that most actually don't... you just don't hear of them so much).
If someone wakes up one day with red skin and horns and LITERALLY ON FIRE, they're not likely to think, "Huh. That's odd." They will probably believe they'd in some way been possessed, warped, or touched by a demon, and they'll probably be treated in that way by most people whether they are or not. Working as a file clerk is probably out of the question. In this way all the elves, demons, and even Batmen we see around Millennium City may not be a manifestation of portals to other universes, but rather an expression of the common man's inability to explain the uncommon. Are you going to tell a ten-foot wall of muscle that he's nuts?
In our normal world we already see normal crazy people who have beliefs that they will not be shaken out of. "I am a robot." "You look just like a person." "I am like the Terminator... it's just superficial." "Here is an x-ray... you are human all the way through." "I was built to fool x-rays." "You eat food and make waste, and don't use energy." "I have a VERY advanced system."
In this way almost any deviation can be explained even when it contradicts with how people think the universe is (and how do they know THAT anyway?) and I don't find it farfetched to agree with 'Watchmen' that most heroes are at least a little nuts. It may seem like a cop-out or a cheat, but ask yourself: how do you know that you're a human? Maybe you aren't but the circumstances which reveal the difference just haven't arrived yet...
The question, incidentally, was also posed in the player's section of the Champions 3rd Edition rulebook. Quoting from memory (and I have no doubt that if my memory is flawed, someone will correct me):
The air conditioning is out in your building. It's been a long day, but the lovely person of the opposite gender who lives across the hall has agreed to come over for dinner. Wine is on ice, and romance is in the air - that is, until the Crimson Death and the Chartreuse Doom kidnap the Mayor. What motivates your character to abandon a promising evening to go and rescue a mayor who maintains that all superheroes are costumed vigilantes who deserve a jail cell?
(That section also has my favorite description of the essence of a character as "more than just a pile of points that indicates your character can pick up a car, eat the tires, and throw the rest a country mile.")
As for motivations? The Risen, my own "heroic demon", aspires to "rise" to the status of angel, and perhaps be allowed access to a Heaven in the Imaginal Realms. (For more normal characters, Starfall is atoning for his despair after losing his family to the 2009 Qularr Invasion; Sonrise seeks to honor his late father's legacy; Shadowbringer wants to defend the realm of his birth from the threat of the Qliphothic, from whence he received his power; Happifun Security System X-4 is following its preprogrammed directives; and so on - each one has his or her own reasons.)
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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You could ask much the same question of a police officer, or firefighter, or professional soldier. Those jobs are inherently dangerous, without a lot of financial remuneration, and for most of them not much fame or glory. As with most human beings their motivations are probably mixed; but I'm confident one big commonality is their desire to be of service, to protect people, and to make the world a better place. Superheroes just have the means to do so on a larger scale than the average person. In mainstream comic-book worlds, which the Champions Universe was built to evoke, the colorful costumes and code names are just a convention that's been built up since WW II, to the point where it's natural for people to expect them.
BTW the Champions Universe source book notes that many people with superhuman powers don't have the type or magnitude of powers suiting them for the superhero (or villain) lifestyle, and even those who do often choose not to follow that career path. It's estimated there are about 6,000 people worldwide with super-powers. Of those roughly 40% both have the level of power to become costumed supers, and actually do. But others have found other ways to be of service to society and/or themselves. For example, Jeff Baker, a mutant with the power to transform inanimate matter, founded his own construction company, Trans-City Construction, which has become very successful and highly regarded, specializing in extremely rapid construction projects, and repairs/cleanup after damaging events, including super battles. Dr. Jeremiah Mugumbe's healing powers have done more to diminish the threat of AIDS in Africa than all the pharmaceutical companies of the world combined.
That said, for centuries the members of the Mystic World subculture have kept their activities secret from the inhabitants of the mundane world, and that tradition mostly persists to this day. OTOH the Age of Superheroes has seen the rise of powerful sorcerers, and the return of gods and other mythic creatures, who openly proclaim their presence and nature. Bottom line, if you want your group to be public a la Ghostbusters, most people will probably think you're crackpots, but if you keep your noses clean they shouldn't give you trouble. But there are also enough believers around that if you're looking for contacts or clients, you should be able to find them.
It's even possible to earn a living within this subculture, if you know the right channels. As one example, the supervillain Harpy (Champions Villains. Vol. 3) uses alchemy to transform herself into a powerful half-bird-woman, and often hires herself out to mystic supervillains who want extra muscle to use against fellow spell-casters who aren't used to countering physical threats.
Could you clarify a bit more what you mean by this comment?
I may have answered my question, but forgot the meaning of that previous comment.
Actually, CO is much easier to insert such things into than most comic-book worlds, because while the PnP Champions Earth allows for their existence, in CO they're common and running around openly terrorizing people. Whether or not the average person believes they're supernatural, their existence is undeniable.