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Heroic demons in CO?

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  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,348 Arc User
    because 3D entities that can choose their path for themselves are way more interesting than moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villains who never stray from the evil path?​​
  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,077 Arc User
    Because #demonlivesmatter?

    Probably because of the room for inner, personal drama? I.e., the very nature of the creature is "evil" which means that trying to go good is inherently very difficult. Story telling usually involves some sort of conflict somewhere. At least, that's the line I use for my good vampire Deacon Blood.
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    Thank you for your input, folks. :)
    because 3D entities that can choose their path for themselves are way more interesting than moustache-twirling saturday morning cartoon villains who never stray from the evil path?​​

    But isn't that true of villains from any background? What does demonic heritage bring that other backgrounds don't, as you see it?
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    jaazaniah1 wrote: »
    Probably because of the room for inner, personal drama? I.e., the very nature of the creature is "evil" which means that trying to go good is inherently very difficult. Story telling usually involves some sort of conflict somewhere. At least, that's the line I use for my good vampire Deacon Blood.

    I understand that, and agree. But many characters, including superheroes, struggle with internal conflicts from a wide variety of causes. Clark Kent fights to maintain his self-control and principles against the temptation to use his vast power however he wants. Peter Parker is torn between his desire for a normal happy life and his dedication to using his abilities responsibly. Bruce Wayne strives to keep his obsession with justice from crossing into becoming judge and executioner. Tony Stark's huge ego impedes his efforts to move from a selfish world-view to a selfless one.

    Having to fight internal evil because one is a creature which is "naturally" evil just seems, I dunno, kind of simplistic to me.

  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,446 Arc User
    Enh, Peter Parker is a different character than Pyrana(who merely looks like a demon). He does different things for different reasons. This is a different set of reasons. Humans aren't naturally GOOD. Humans are at best neutral by nature.

    It's rather compelling when you take a being who was CREATED to do evil but chooses not to. Like with Terminators.... SOME Terminators are forcibly reprogrammed to serve humans.... some rare cases CHOOSE to fight Skynet. Like the Terminator that assumed the identity of Catherine Weaver.... it simply didn't want to follow Skynet's orders. The T-1001 clearly wasn't a mindless machine. It CHOSE to take over managing a corporation.... and actually did a reasonably good job of it. Demons have the ability to make choices too.

    It's like the old nature/nurture debate. How much of a person's personality is what they were born to be and how much is what they choose to be?
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  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,701 Community Moderator
    edited June 2018
    bulgarex wrote: »
    I'm rather curious: For those of you wanting to play a "good" demon, what's the appeal to that type of character for you? What sets it apart from any of the other extremely wide range of choices available in the supers genre?

    I actually have one character that's supposed to be an evil demon, which I made as a bit of a "challenge" since I don't play evil/bad/villain characters. I wanted to try out the Darkness powerset and, thinking it would be odd if a "good" hero would tap into "dark" powers to mete out justice, I went for a bad guy that was forced to do good. So the character is named Thrall, and he uses a combination of classic villain colors (black, green, purple), but as a contrast and for theme, he's got shining, golden bracers that are kind of mystical shackles that compel him to use his powers for good.

    I dunno how any of that sits with Champions lore but I thought it was a pretty decent way to try out the "evil" type of powers on a "good" guy.
    So I made the new character(Pyrana). And here she is pondering the nature of the place where Kigatilik was sealed away....Is this even part of the "real" world?

    Yeah, but the ice is melted into water. It is in the southeast part of Canada, with lots of floating purple spirits and stuff all around.

    Edit: Here's the place:
    0FZRfN9.png
    Post edited by biffsmackwell on
    biffsig.jpg
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    I actually have one character that's supposed to be an evil demon, which I made as a bit of a "challenge" since I don't play evil/bad/villain characters. I wanted to try out the Darkness powerset and, thinking it would be odd if a "good" hero would tap into "dark" powers to mete out justice, I went for a bad guy that was forced to do good. So the character is named Thrall, and he uses a combination of classic villain colors (black, green, purple), but as a contrast and for theme, he's got shining, golden bracers that are kind of mystical shackles that compel him to use his powers for good.

    I dunno how any of that sits with Champions lore but I thought it was a pretty decent way to try out the "evil" type of powers on a "good" guy.

    Thank you for your input. :) I can't think of anything official that says you can't make a character like that. FWIW I think it's a clever idea, and an interesting role-reversal challenge from a role-playing perspective.

    Just FYI, genre-wise darkness powers don't necessarily have to be "evil" just by virtue of being "dark." Sure, you have the likes of Cloak from Cloak and Dagger, for whom that's true; but several comic-book true heroes use some form of dark matter/energy, e.g. Darkstar, Nightshade, the Shroud. In the Champions Universe the leader of the famous Sentinels hero team, Black Rose, has dark powers.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,446 Arc User
    Note: Darkforce energy in Marvel comics is apparently evil somehow and tapping into can drive a person insane.
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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    My research suggests hints of corrupting Darkforce influence in relation to specific users, e.g. Cloak and Darkhawk; but not generally or definitively stated.

    The dark energy wielded by the previously mentioned Champs hero Black Rose does have a "spiritually corrosive" side effect, but a strong disciplined will can withstand that.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,446 Arc User
    Yeah there are methods to tap into it that are safe, and methods that aren't.
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  • jonsillsjonsills Posts: 6,138 Arc User
    My reasoning (for the one demonic character I ever created) was that demons were originally created without much self-will - they're dedicated instruments of evil, not "people" as such - but since they arise from the Imaginal Realms, as humans began broadening their tastes in fantasy to include new paradigms, the concept of the Risen Demon became, well, a thing. Risen came in response to this concept; in essence, humanity "dreamed" him into existence. The downside, of course, is that the dream still includes his personal immortality - and one day, the dream could turn again, and he could be forced to return to his former existence as a servant of Evil, to be tormented eternally by memories of when he was something more...
    "Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"

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  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    So, I get the impression an "evil" background works particularly well for players who like their PCs angst-ridden.
  • biffsmackwellbiffsmackwell Posts: 4,701 Community Moderator
    bulgarex wrote: »
    Thank you for your input. :) I can't think of anything official that says you can't make a character like that. FWIW I think it's a clever idea, and an interesting role-reversal challenge from a role-playing perspective.

    Just FYI, genre-wise darkness powers don't necessarily have to be "evil" just by virtue of being "dark." Sure, you have the likes of Cloak from Cloak and Dagger, for whom that's true; but several comic-book true heroes use some form of dark matter/energy, e.g. Darkstar, Nightshade, the Shroud. In the Champions Universe the leader of the famous Sentinels hero team, Black Rose, has dark powers.

    I actually had the wrong powerset, it was the Infernal powerset that the character had. I don't know much at all about the sorcery sets, I just knew it was some evil-sounding stuff. :P
    biffsig.jpg
  • kallethenkallethen Posts: 1,545 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    bulgarex wrote: »
    I'm rather curious: For those of you wanting to play a "good" demon, what's the appeal to that type of character for you? What sets it apart from any of the other extremely wide range of choices available in the supers genre?

    A couple of reasons for my Luna Dusksoul. First, she's an homage to the devil/demon/fiend becomes hero archtype as I indicated before.

    Secondly, Luna's "redemption" is a theme that appealed to me. Sure, that can be done with a regular person too. But when an inspiring concept pops into my head I just need to run with it.

    Thirdly, the idea of having a devil character using the Radiant AT just made me giggle.​​
    Post edited by kallethen on
    100% of the world is crazy, 95% are in denial.

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  • sapphiechusapphiechu Posts: 147 Arc User
    edited June 2018
    My demon and devil are small, child-like beings. L'il Imp was left behind by a DEMON summoning, and even forgotten by the heroes that blew the DEMON chantry into rubble. That Little Devil ("I'M NOT A DEMON!") was summoned by an idiot that wanted a succubus, and instead got a pretty useless devil, and tried (and failed, because idiot) to kill her. Neither are 'EVIL', but Imp is mischievous, and Devil is hyper and wants to ask questions all the time. I play them because they are cute, and fun to RP with.
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  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Posts: 4,446 Arc User
    The origin I eventually settled on for Pyrana ws that she's actually more like an Irradiate, just not murderously insane, and with powers based on heat and radiation manipulation. And her appearance looks like a demon as a coincidence really.
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  • scildtrumascildtruma Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited April 18
    Daemon is a word that was twisted by certain religious factions into the word demon it is today. A daemon is a spirit of nature that is no more inherently evil than humanity. Many mythical creatures have been turned into evil monsters simply because one religion wanted another one stamped out.
    My Champs in random order=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=M.M.A.I. Dragondroid=By the sword=Grim Harvest=

  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Posts: 1,348 Arc User
    and then there are mythical creatures that end up being EVERYONE'S scapegoat​​
  • scildtrumascildtruma Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited April 18
    My FF is a daemon. I play zombie/cursed type toons for the most part. A big reason for this is to show that doing evil/ bad is not a look but an act. Just like an act of kindness. I firmly believe there are no absolutes.
    My Champs in random order=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=M.M.A.I. Dragondroid=By the sword=Grim Harvest=

  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 3,077 Arc User
    Now that sounds pretty "absolute" to me ;)
    scildtruma wrote: »
    My FF is a daemon. I play zombie/cursed type toons for the most part. A big reason for this is to show that doing evil/ bad is not a look but an act. Just like an act of kindness. I firmly believe there are no absolutes.

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  • scildtrumascildtruma Posts: 70 Arc User
    edited April 18
    My point is there are people that are more prone to "evil" but that does not mean they are incapable of ever doing a good deed. Even a liar can tell the truth. An evil act does not equate to an evil being. I have a mandate. I don't like mandates. lol! Ah the duality of humanity .....
    My Champs in random order=Pieces of Stuff=Knock Dead=Cruel Yule=Cremator=Toys from the Attic=Gnosis Arcanum=Twenty Seven=Kama D=Critic=Creep Freeze=Mangled Man=G.I. John Doe=2D.=M.M.A.I. Dragondroid=By the sword=Grim Harvest=

  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    scildtruma wrote: »
    Daemon is a word that was twisted by certain religious factions into the word demon it is today. A daemon is a spirit of nature that is no more inherently evil than humanity. Many mythical creatures have been turned into evil monsters simply because one religion wanted another one stamped out.

    That is unquestionably true. However, that process has a very practical impact on the cosmology of the Champions Universe. The "demons" and "gods" of all stripes that people on Champions Earth may interact directly with, are generated by the collective imagination and belief of the human race. That doesn't mean there can't be "real" versions of gods -- Champions lore takes no religious stand. Most demons, especially the "devils" of the Abrahamic faiths, are true embodiments of evil, because that's what most people imagine them to be. Moreover, as the way people conceive of these entities evolves over time, their form, personality, even memories, mutate to conform to the newer conception. Hence while the prevalent daemons of the past were almost certainly as you describe them, contemporary demons usually conform to the pattern of popular belief. To elaborate on your own example, some prominent devils of today were gods in ancient Canaan who were "demonized" by their neighbors the Israelites, and as the Abrahamic religions spread those gods were transformed.

    That being said, there's no reason exceptions can't exist. Human belief, even in a particular religion, is never monolithic -- variations occur among particular populations or across distinct regions, following popular ideas more than literate orthodoxy. In fact, the concept of a "redeemable" demon is rather fashionable in current pop culture in the Western world, which in all likelihood has impacted the way some demons behave, or even spawned a corner of the Netherworld (the Astral dimension that's a mosaic of all the Hells known to Man) where such demons congregate.

    (The above cosmology is described in detail in The Mystic World, the PnP source book for the occult side of the Champions Universe.)
  • bulgarexbulgarex Posts: 1,539 Arc User
    scildtruma wrote: »
    My FF is a daemon. I play zombie/cursed type toons for the most part. A big reason for this is to show that doing evil/ bad is not a look but an act. Just like an act of kindness. I firmly believe there are no absolutes.

    As I mentioned earlier on this thread, I see many "cursed" types of supernatural creatures among the PCs in Champions Online, and as a trend that saddens me. While such characters definitely aren't unknown in the comic-book superhero genre, they've always been the exception, which is part of what makes them special. I realize that many gamers come to CO from other RPGs, notably fantasy; and as they frequently lack much experience with comic books their instinct is to translate what they're familiar with to this game. But there's such vastly wider potential for character backgrounds in this setting, as in comic books in general, that I feel players are missing out on many other role-playing opportunities.

    That's one big reason why I make "lore" posts to these forums -- to apprise players of the range of choices available to them. :)
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