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  • psychicslugpsychicslug Posts: 609 Arc User
    Moon struck should probably have a glow effect on the ground and maybe light motes coming up mayvbe like the embers aura but with a white base color.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,535 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    Suggestion: Please consider giving ELECTRIC powers innate abilities/ADVs to apply Clinging flames in order to create synergy with Electricity-Fire

    My reasoning behind this is because Electricity thematically can cause Fire, both poweframes got revamped back to back and would create more elemental synergies beyond the typical Fire-Ice.
    Giving Negative Ions on Fireball so far isn't really exciting
    Gotta encourage the Elementalist theme

    overall I like what I'm reading so far, I hope there are more :+1:
    Now we just need a passive that boosts both Fire and Electricity. Currently, "Elemental" (Fiery Form) is Fire/Ice/Toxic and "Energy" (Electric Form) is Lightning/Particle/Sonic. :(​​
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  • avianosavianos Posts: 5,705 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    aesica wrote: »
    Now we just need a passive that boosts both Fire and Electricity. Currently, "Elemental" (Fiery Form) is Fire/Ice/Toxic and "Energy" (Electric Form) is Lightning/Particle/Sonic. :(
    We would benefit greatly a from Passive that increase ALL DAMAGE for Energy Projector powerframes (Force, Lighting, Wind, Fire, Ice)
    Basically a counterpart to Targeting Computer and Composure (which both boost all Technology powers) but for elementals, providing along elemental resistances


    Here is a suggestion from my part :+1:

    The downside from this suggestion? EARTH is left out because it's in Brick family and not Energy Projector​​
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  • nightr0dnightr0d Posts: 450 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    All we would need is a passive that buffes both elemental and physical dmg. That would make ice, toxic, fire work with slashing, piercing and crushing. This passive would also help sets that have powers that do elemental type dmg like incendiary grenade (or is it fiery grenade?) from munitions. Essentialy what holds synergies back are the passives IMO.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User
    I have to say, I was really hoping to see a Fire Self Heal which was range appropriate for ranged fire users, instead of mainly catering to mostly HW style builds.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Suggestion:
    Can Thermal Reverberation be adjusted to scale with either Endurance or Recovery (whichever is higher) or be changed to scale with Recovery primarily?


    Suggestion:
    Please consider allowing Meteor Blaze to feel a bit more like an ultimate and less like a regular power. Whilst the intent is to keep Fire mid range, I would hope that the following suggestion isn't too bad: Increase the range of Meteor Strike to 60ft and increase the area of effect to 25ft. Increase the size of the meteor summoned and allow the main target to be knocked down and the surrounding targets in range to be knocked back and/or repelled strongly..


    Suggestion: Consider going a more flame stream route with Incinerate. Right now it looks like two Chest Laser Beams firing. Some images and gifs using both hands are floating around. Here's two I particularly like:





    Post edited by theravenforce on
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User
    Bug: Meteor Blaze's description states that it deals "Area of Effect Particle Damage". This is not the case.

    Bug: Nova Flare's description contains a typo on the final "+" as 'Ranking' is spelt 'Ranknig'.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    nightr0d said:

    The issue with elementalist is that we have energy and elemental damage types. So unless we have a passive that buffs both that will be a problem (well NW buffs all dmg but that's not the point).

    But that is the point. You have NW, Quarry, WoTW, Unstoppable in offensive passive category....and since they have buffs for a massive selection of damage types that buff amount is lower. I would not want to make the decision to use a particular passive mostly a cosmetic one or to have the specialized offensive passives get nerfed to make up for covering a vast array of damage types. The passives that buff 1-3 damage types are for people who want to specialize in those sets.

    It makes sense that more specialized buffs are bigger than buffs that cover many powersets. If they weren't then you would actually have fewer meaningful choices and less diversity.
    nightr0d said:

    All we would need is a passive that buffes both elemental and physical dmg.

    We already have a freeform powers system + offensive passives that buff both to address that.

    And to be clear, you are just talking about offensive passives.
  • kamokamikamokami Posts: 1,633 Arc User
    Waiting on next patch that fixes some of the obvious broken stuff already reported to do dps tests, but....


    Suggestion:
    Please consider allowing Meteor Blaze to feel a bit more like an ultimate and less like a regular power.

    This. It's pretty ho-hum right now. Needs a much more Ultimate feel...I mean the Expulse adv looks more ultimate than Meteor atm.


    Now that looks like it would hurt.
  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,535 Arc User
    avianos wrote: »
    We would benefit greatly a from Passive that increase ALL DAMAGE for Energy Projector powerframes (Force, Lighting, Wind, Fire, Ice)
    Basically a counterpart to Targeting Computer and Composure (which both boost all Technology powers) but for elementals, providing along elemental resistances


    Here is a suggestion from my part :+1:

    The downside from this suggestion? EARTH is left out because it's in Brick family and not Energy Projector​
    Yeah, leaving Earth out is why I think it'd be better off boosting specific damage types, specifically Fire, Electrical, Cold, and Crushing. This would include all energy projector types, Earth, and even leave the door open for other build options, given how widespread (almost too widespread) crushing damage extends.​​
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    I'd prefer to roaring SFX on incinerate to continue for the full maintain.

    The updated vfx is a lot better, 2d beams are not noticeable at all now.

  • nbkxsnbkxs Posts: 751 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Fan the flames is having issues refreshing engulf, either on it's own, or by the meteor.

    The update to nyctophobia seems to have had no effect, darkness dps didn't seem to go up at all, even after a reroll, remains the same.​​
    Post edited by nbkxs on
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  • aesicaaesica Posts: 2,535 Arc User
    Just some thoughts on a few more things:

    Meteor Blaze
    Mathing it out a bit, the raw damage is only barely better than Fireball. Specifically (with an incomplete gear setup and no form/ranks/passive/etc, here's the values I'm getting, adjusting by cast times for the DPS value:

    Meteor Blaze: 1668 (834 DPS)
    Fireball: 2423 (807.6... DPS)
    Gravity Driver: 2481 (827 DPS)

    So while it's technically the highest in terms of raw DPS, both Fireball and Gravity Driver (a good example of a charged-up ultimate) are superior opening strikes. Gravity Driver especially because it also debuffs the resistance of targets and has a huge (40') radius, whereas Meteor Blaze only has a 15' radius and creates a pyre patch--something many other fire powers can do.

    So, to make it more of an ultimate:
    • Increase the radius to 40 feet, or at least something that feels more ultimate-worthy.
    • Either multiple hits or a single, heavier hit would help. In terms of aesthetics, I think several quick meteor strikes (0.5 sec for 2-3 sec) would make it look and feel a lot more impressive.
    • A guaranteed clinging flames application, some sort of damage debuff (3 stacks of engulfing flames or the same debuff used by Gravity Driver/Crashing Incantation/etc), and/or the stronger Unstable Accelerant would be good things to consider.

    Engulfing Flames
    It'd be really cool if this was available on a few additional powers as a baseline effect (not advantage). Specifically, Pyromancer's Blades, Fire Strike, and Fireball. This way, people have options on how they want to apply the debuff rather than everyone using the same thing.

    Unstable Accelerant
    Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a bit underwhelming, and on top of that, seems to be pretty scarce. This would be a good effect for Fire Breath (at least half maintain), Pyre, and of course Fireball (as is). I haven't mathed it out, but could it use a buff of some kind? The current list of "Burning" effects are all pretty weak by themselves.

    Chemical Fire (Fire Breath)
    Plasma isn't really a chemical, but the next highest energy state of matter after gas, at least that's the simplified explanation. Something like "Superheated" might be a bit more scientifically accurate. Yes, I fully realize that this is just a nitpick. ;)

    Fan the Flames (Flashfire and in general)
    A few things about this:
    • Since this effect extends to all pyre patches, not just the one attached to Flashfire, could this advantage also be made available on something more generic, such as Fiery Will (the form) or Fiery Form (the passive)? This way, people could benefit from the pyre patch refresh mechanic even if they don't want to use Flashfire. (Note that I don't mean to remove it from Flashfire, just that it also be an option in a more universally-accessible way)
    • In line with the previous point, I'd suggest having all pyre patches refresh using half-duration rather than half for Flashfire and full for everything else. That way, the effect is standardized.

    Fire Shield
    Any possibility of a 1 point advantage to add a very small per-second heal while blocking to Fire Shield? I don't mean anything big and fancy, just something on par with what Ebon Void currently does baseline. It'd be nice to have that option through something besides Ebon Void.

    - - -

    Also, I'm still willing to trade my first born for a melee-based fire sword utility power. Please don't forget to add it! :D​​
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  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,316 Arc User
    Yea, still doesn't seem like Incinerate's Burninator adv is working on ERuin w/ the dmg boost via Clinging Flames.

    Might I add that I find this inclusion a bit weird. A power boosts a specific power from a completely diff set, while the original power doesn't even have the base application itself for that interaction (here, Clinging Flames). At least w/ Moonstruck and Regen or Howl it was in-set, but I'm not sure I like this trend. Cross-set stuff is nice, but I guess its just a bit too.. specific? I dunno.. perhaps Wisp w/ Ghost Fire is good for ERuin w/ this now.

    It may be nice to get an outline in one of the basic power's tooltips somewhere (perhaps Fiery Will and/or Fiery Form) what all the Burning effects exactly are for procing purposes, just to have an easy in-game reference.

    Bug: Fiery Escalation seems to still expire when using a Fire power and under the effects of Immolation at R2 or R3.

    Bug: Flame Prison doesn't seem to be flagged as AoE. (neat visuals, btw)

    Bug?: Fire Strike consumes Avenger Mastery, despite not having a charge time.

    Typo: Nova Flare's tooltip says that ranking lowers the damage, when it lowers its healing.

    Atm I'm not really against bumping up Incinerate's dmg a bit, even if it means increasing its energy cost (per tick cost seems to be on the lower-end for an ST maintain, oddly). I assume Fire is meant to be more of a DoT and AoE set, but at the same time this attack is already a 50ft self-root.

    Nice to see more thematic ally heals in the mix. I always thought Empathic in TP looked like heat energy if re-colored, so I guess Warmth is a natural addition.
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  • jaazaniah1jaazaniah1 Posts: 5,087 Arc User
    Could Absorb Heat have a built in ability called Cauterize Wounds that stops bleeds. Not and Adv to spend points on, just something intrinsic to give it a unique aspect.
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  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    VERY glad to see a thematic heal for Fire which is friendly to ranged Fire users. Thank you very much!

    Warmth - New Self and Other Healing Ability in Fire (think Empathic Healing)

    Suggestion - Warmth
    Can Warmth's healing values be looked at? If it is based off Empathic Healing, it is currently a weaker choice in terms of heal strength (at least according to tool tips and healing values). Please consider making it stronger or decrease its cost if it is going to heal for less.


    Suggestion - Warmth
    This is probably a bit silly, but can Warmth use a different animation for healing self and other? I'd really like to see it use Fireball's charging stance for healing self with a sphere of fire and Arcane Vitality's stance for healing others with the flame stream.


    Suggestion - Warmth
    Another alternative for Warmth is to have it gain bonus healing from Thermal Reverberation stacks on you? Would have to be significant enough to warrant current energy cost (which isn't much but it makes me think that Empathic Healing is going to receive a gutting soon if the two have to match.)


    Bug - Warmth
    When taking damage and trying to heal it back.
    Warmth heals self fine but something it does seems to be attacking an invisible object in the Defensive Laser testing room, and continues to spawn some sort of flame burst on the X spot.


    Bug - Warmth
    Seems to have no audible SFX when healing self. Empathic Healing's roaring SFX may be appropriate however, some campfire SFX's in the game have a nicer sound to them that might work better for Warmth.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User
    Bug - Empathic Healing
    Empathic Healing at Rank 2 & Rank 3 has lost it's SFX when healing self.
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    General Point / Question regarding the Fire Power Set: Could Engulfing Flames debuff be placed on an offensive power like Fireball or Fire Strike, to avoid it being tied to powers with high cooldowns (high relative to other sets which can apply set debuffs without cool downs attached)?

    Having it on Fire Snake could be a potential problem in some Cosmic situations if the movements are now somewhat random and it jumps onto a heart by mistake.

    Also Flame Prison is an incapacitate instead of a charged paralyze. There's the potential for that to be problematic when trying to reliably apply the debuff. (Up side of being an incapacitate is, though...we'll see Supervillains trapped in Flaming prisons for a while, which is cool). For the max target cap and the way it is cast, it would make more sense (to me) to be a charged paralyze.

    In light of that, I make two more suggestions:

    Suggestion - Engulfing Flames debuff
    Please consider making this available on more than just two powers within the entire set, both of which have base cool downs which are significantly longer than the duration of the debuff. Options could be: Flashfire as an innate or advantage,
    Fire Strike or Fireball.


    Suggestion - Flame Prison
    Please change this from an Incapacitate to a Charged Paralyze. Fire Set already has one Incapacitate, it could do with a charged paralyze to get better use out of engulfing flames if it is preferred for application over Fire Snake.
  • kaiserin#0958 kaiserin Posts: 2,832 Cryptic Developer
    edited November 2017
    flowcyto wrote: »
    Might I add that I find this inclusion a bit weird. A power boosts a specific power from a completely diff set, while the original power doesn't even have the base application itself for that interaction (here, Clinging Flames). At least w/ Moonstruck and Regen or Howl it was in-set, but I'm not sure I like this trend. Cross-set stuff is nice, but I guess its just a bit too.. specific? I dunno.. perhaps Wisp w/ Ghost Fire is good for ERuin w/ this now.

    The adv wasn't mentioned in the patch notes as it isn't quite done, it's tooltip is just a copy of Ebon Ruin's.


    nbkxs wrote: »
    The update to nyctophobia seems to have had no effect, darkness dps didn't seem to go up at all, even after a reroll, remains the same.

    Cannot reproduce, it's properly buffing the power for me. Can you provide any parses?​​
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,316 Arc User
    kaizerin said:


    The adv wasn't mentioned in the patch notes as it isn't quite done, it's tooltip is just a copy of Ebon Ruin's.

    Fair enough; thanks for the clarification.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    Suggestion:
    Give Incinerate some mobility, at the level of Assault Riffle
  • jamesbonnelljamesbonnell Posts: 169 Arc User
    Suggestion
    Would it be possible for Fiery Will to scale off more than just Recovery? Most of the older Forms allow choice of two stats...
  • theravenforcetheravenforce Posts: 6,964 Arc User

    Suggestion
    Would it be possible for Fiery Will to scale off more than just Recovery? Most of the older Forms allow choice of two stats...

    It seems to be the new pattern for forms to have one main scaling stat that the set is forced to use if you are building mostly in set.

    Whilst this is okay as long as "wider" choices exist (Concentration, Compassion, Manipulator), if the generic choices vanish...well who knows?

    I like to think each set is just being given something as an alternative to "the main three", without removing them as choices. But only time will tell there.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    With the 15% base damage advantage, incinerate is outperforming other ranged dps (except PA) a bit. The difference between fire and other sets seem to be mostly the resistance debuff. While most other sets get -18 or -15, fire gets -(6+2)*3=-24.


    Post edited by aiqa on
  • I really think that things like the range at which powers can be used and the ablity to move while using them should affect the different powersets damage potential, even if it's a slight difference.
    These are obvious advantages that make one powerset easier to use compared to others:
    100ft with the ability to move > 100ft self-root > 50ft with the ability to move > 50ft self-root
    kaizerin said:


    Conflagration

    • Reduced damage to fall in line with other area effect powers.
    Was the energy cost for Conflagration also reduced or was there no need for that?

    What's the point of making new forms if they are mostly going to be ignored? Endurance and Recovery don't look like good stats for form scaling.
    I would understand if Power Armor got a form that scales with Endurance, where investing in an energy stat would help users overcome the high costs of the powers and balance the damage in the same time. But lightning and fire don't really need all the extra endurance/recovery.
    This might not be an issue now, since anyone can get Concentration or Chilled Form instead. But if those forms get altered, sets like fire and lightning are going to suffer the most (not considering sets that don't have a toggle form yet). If Chilled Form was released these days it would probably work with applying the ice debuffs and scale with one stat only.

    Suggestions:
    Make a new fire themed threat wipe.
    Add a self resurrection power to the fire powerset.
    Maybe use the animation from the device and setup different effects. It would be nice to have this as a power instead of having a device as the only option for the fire theme.
    Add a more useful effect to Fiery Form, like a small Heal or 2% fire resistance reduction to enemies affected by clinging flames. The damage done to foes in melee range is not that useful for ranged users.
  • Also about the recent archetype changes. Did you give up on trying to improve ATs builds?
    Having the Recovery PSS specialization was always an issue for the Inerno and the Scourge. The stat probably has the worst spec choices for any type of build. Even Endurance has some more interesting choices like Hardened and Readiness. The only thing that directly affects your damage has the silly requirement of keeping your energy over 90%, and even then it's inferior to other PSS specializations.
    Few things that can be done to make the AT better:
    -Improve the Recovery PSS spec,
    most of it would need to get it's choices replaced with something useful
    -Make Ego the PSS for the Inferno AT and replace Endurance with a more useful stat (Con or Dex). Dexterity would fit better since "The Inferno" innate talent gives 5 extra points to Dex.There would be no need for having both energy stats, especially since Recovery is used to scale the form, at that point i don't see existing energy isues, the EU also scales with Recovery.

    One of the things I'm most dissapointed about is not adding Absorb Heat and Electrical Siphon to the Inferno and the Tempest ATs. You have 2 builds that are all about applying a specific debuff and powers that consume those debuffs to restore healt. They fit the theme and are easy to use. If ranged users are expected to get in closer range to use the sets ultimate, getting closer to enemies to use the heals is not a problem. Plus you don't have to force people to take them, it can always be an option in the power progression. Electrical Siphon could have easily replaced Electrocute for the Tempest AT. Aborb Heat could be a replacement for Flame Prison or maybe alternative choice at Lv35.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    Bug:
    When using flight (and probably others, but flight is obvious), Fiery Form and Absorb Heat, flight speed stays at in-combat speed.
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 133 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    aiqa said:

    With the 15% base damage advantage, incinerate is outperforming other ranged dps (except PA) a bit. The difference between fire and other sets seem to be mostly the resistance debuff. While most other sets get -18 or -15, fire gets -(6+2)*3=-24.


    It's a mid range ranged DPS set. You kind of expect it to do more damage than electricity for that reason.
    EDIT: I forgot to add, it still doesn't do more than electricity @ 100 ft like this though.
  • yeah, if they aren't going to change the range on most of the fire powers to where i'm not constantly having to get into melee range with ape because the 25 foot area is covered by the meleer's lava pools or constantly getting hit by both dino's AND baby's bubble spam...i'd better be doing a hell of a lot more damage than what fire currently puts out​​
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    aiqa said:

    With the 15% base damage advantage, incinerate is outperforming other ranged dps (except PA) a bit. The difference between fire and other sets seem to be mostly the resistance debuff. While most other sets get -18 or -15, fire gets -(6+2)*3=-24.


    It's a mid range ranged DPS set. You kind of expect it to do more damage than electricity for that reason.
    Why does everything have to be compared to Lightning? That is getting a bit old. I've posted parses of all the recently changed sets except PA, and they are all very similar. But still, Lighting this Lightning that, when ever there is a discussion about balance.

    And as for Fire being mid range, there is no precedence for lower ranged sets having stronger resistance debuffs. Melee doesn't have -40% debuffs or anything like that.
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 133 Arc User
    aiqa said:

    aiqa said:

    With the 15% base damage advantage, incinerate is outperforming other ranged dps (except PA) a bit. The difference between fire and other sets seem to be mostly the resistance debuff. While most other sets get -18 or -15, fire gets -(6+2)*3=-24.


    It's a mid range ranged DPS set. You kind of expect it to do more damage than electricity for that reason.
    Why does everything have to be compared to Lightning? That is getting a bit old. I've posted parses of all the recently changed sets except PA, and they are all very similar. But still, Lighting this Lightning that, when ever there is a discussion about balance.

    And as for Fire being mid range, there is no precedence for lower ranged sets having stronger resistance debuffs. Melee doesn't have -40% debuffs or anything like that.
    Melee also doesn't really need debuffs like that. People compare it to electricity because electricity is the new OP that got through despite being obviously high. It does 6.8k DPS now.

    That being said, you expect damage to increase the closer you get to your target due to risk involved. You even said it yourself that blocking reduces DPS, and say, at Teleiosaurus electricity doesn't have to block baby. Fire does.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    aiqa said:

    aiqa said:

    With the 15% base damage advantage, incinerate is outperforming other ranged dps (except PA) a bit. The difference between fire and other sets seem to be mostly the resistance debuff. While most other sets get -18 or -15, fire gets -(6+2)*3=-24.


    It's a mid range ranged DPS set. You kind of expect it to do more damage than electricity for that reason.
    Why does everything have to be compared to Lightning? That is getting a bit old. I've posted parses of all the recently changed sets except PA, and they are all very similar. But still, Lighting this Lightning that, when ever there is a discussion about balance.

    And as for Fire being mid range, there is no precedence for lower ranged sets having stronger resistance debuffs. Melee doesn't have -40% debuffs or anything like that.
    Melee also doesn't really need debuffs like that. People compare it to electricity because electricity is the new OP that got through despite being obviously high. It does 6.8k DPS now.

    That being said, you expect damage to increase the closer you get to your target due to risk involved. You even said it yourself that blocking reduces DPS, and say, at Teleiosaurus electricity doesn't have to block baby. Fire does.
    I've never seen anyone post any comparison parses doing 6.8k with Lightning, and doing far lower with other recently reviewed sets. Nor have I seen any explanations why Lightning would get so much more out of stuff like using Imbue at low health, or other generic buffs, than other sets. Both flow and me did post comparison parses, which showed very similar dps for a set like telekinesis. But that is all ignored, and Lightning is the set we all have to complain about.

    Also, for Dino most of the time it's better to be closer to your target, due to auras doing far more for your dps than blocking. And for all other cosmic fights range either makes very little difference or it's better to be well within 50 feet of the boss.

    And while it's certainly an advantage to have higher range, for that to justify a significant dps difference there will need to be very different boss fights. And development is certainly not going in that direction, many years ago ranged had it far easier on lots of bossfights, but that has been changed these last few years (which you should already know, why do I have to explain this?).

    If you really want to complain about a ranged set doing far higher dps than others, there is always Power Armor. How can you even thing Lightning is THE OP set when there is something like Power Armer that is far stronger than anything else ranged. Where are your complaints about that? Why are you not comparing Fire to PA?
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 133 Arc User
    No one needs to post it, people can simply just do it on live now. I've seen it on live and it's factually overpowered. No one says anything about power armor because that actually requires more management than electricity does. Additionally, I think if range didn't change how damage gets higher, then melee probably wouldn't be doing as much damage as it does, and we wouldn't have advantages that force you into 50 ft to melee range on ranged attacks to increase your damage.

    Also, you block less at 100 ft range at Teleiosaurus, and you can't sit here and tell me being closer at all cosmics or fights in general doesn't involve more risk. There's risks with being closer at each fight that doesn't just involve needing to block.

    And just to emphasize, I don't compare fire to PA because PA also kinda has that thing where the highest possible DPS for it needs a circle, whereas lightning's DPS all comes from being in set.

    You also should probably chill out. With how you're responding you'd think I was attacking you or something.
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 133 Arc User
    Now with that said.
    This is looking a bit better! Still kind of low compared to live, but it's getting there. I still reeeeeeally feel like the 60% debuff should make a comeback on heatwave, though. Equally because it was unique, and equally because I'd just like to see fire do what it does on live.
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    aiqa said:

    Why does everything have to be compared to Lightning?

    Because that and PA are what are currently OP, and comparing to PA requires dealing with quite annoying rotations.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,316 Arc User
    I guess I'll have to parse some more, but its worth noting that LArc is one of the most costly ST maintains, ranged TK matches or beats it and has an easier time of it (imo), and that 2-slot PA can still put out good numbers (esp if you can occasionally throw in a 3rd slot when energy is high). Most of the revamped ranged sets have been relatively well balanced for dps, imo. One can always do tweaking, ofc, but I don't see things as wildly off thus far.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    aiqa said:

    Why does everything have to be compared to Lightning?

    Because that and PA are what are currently OP, and comparing to PA requires dealing with quite annoying rotations.
    Ok, show me some parses where Lightning greatly outperforms TK ranged. Using the same build and buffs?
    In my own tests tmg gets really close to those too, or even beats them using the damage adv.
    And that the damage adv on tgm is not really functional shouldn't be a balance consideration for other sets.
    And PA has really easy rotations these days 1233....1233.....1233....1233....1233....1233 (33 so minigun keeps in sync)

    Here is a PA parse without circles, using just that 1233 rotation.


    I did have to change my build a bit to work for PA. The other sets were all parsed with a ego/dex/rec or ego/dex/end build (depending on the EU). PA had to go with ego/end/rec, and changed from justice efficiency to a distinguised efficiency. But that just means it has more headroom in crit chance. So AoPM will help the PA build far more than the builds with dex.
    Post edited by aiqa on
  • pantagruel01pantagruel01 Posts: 7,091 Arc User
    The problem with LA is that it has a 20% base damage boost from neg ions that you don't have to pay anything for. If it were a 2 point advantage for +30% it would be more comparable to other powers.
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,316 Arc User
    Okay, one thing I immediately notice is that Fiery Will's energy return is scaling w/ End instead of Rec.

    Makes parsing a proper rotation w/ in-set stuff tough since you have less energy than intended and may pull more stats away from dps for it. The dmg scaling on the form seems fine, so its just a bit odd.
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    The problem with LA is that it has a 20% base damage boost from neg ions that you don't have to pay anything for. If it were a 2 point advantage for +30% it would be more comparable to other powers.

    Again, show the parses. Using the same build (as far as possible), testing multiple sets. Making claims based on a single property of a power, or on parses that have no comparison to other sets using that same gear and buffs setup, is not overly convincing. I think I have done just that. I posted parses of tk ranged, tgm, lightning and now PA.

    And here is an ice parse I've done recently, even that is already quite close to the other sets. And lightning is doing 5825/5696=2.3% higher dps than ice. 2.3% is the difference between OP and weak sets these days? Also note that ice (charge attack) gets a far greater dps boost from AoAC than the sets that depend on maintains.


    If there is really some thing that scales far better for Lighting, that has to be something very specific. Generic buffs should just apply to all powers more or less equally. So if there is build that can reach close to 7k dps on Lightning and does 6k on tk ranged, it would be very interesting to find out what exactly makes that difference. And that should then be fixed.
    But we'll never find out what that thing is if the people that see those big differences don't show exactly what they are doing, and test multiple sets.
  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    Bug:
    Flashfire regularly fails to refresh the resistance debuff
  • stergasterga Posts: 2,353 Arc User
    Shouldn't sets use specially tailored builds and buffs to show off how much damage they can do instead of a generic build which may or may not favor a certain set anyway? The only thing that should be equal is the gear level.​​
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    sterga said:

    Shouldn't sets use specially tailored builds and buffs to show off how much damage they can do instead of a generic build which may or may not favor a certain set anyway? The only thing that should be equal is the gear level.​​

    How would you improve over an ego/dex/rec or ego/dex/end build (apart from PA), in a way that has some specific in set synergy and that ends up with better performance? And if you do end up with a bit higher dps on say dex/ego/rec or dex/ego/end, how would that be tied to 1 set?
    Post edited by aiqa on
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,316 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Well, going to switch to Ego primary gearing w/ Chilled Form, since that's more what I was testing before anyways..

    EGO/Dex/End: 524 Ego, 90 Dex, 109 End, 72 Rec.
    3/3 Follow Through, 2/3 6th Sense. Guardicator. 29.7% crit, 124.4% sev.

    Powers: R3+Burninator Incinerate, R2+FtF Flashfire, R2+Tb Firesnake. R3 Fiery Form, Chilled Form, TReverb.

    'Simplest' rotation: Channel Incinerate in-between using Flashfire & Firesnake.


    Based on my last tests w/ this kind of stat & spec setup, those numbers are already at or above the level of Elec and Ranged TK for ST dps-



    .. and I could have found a better way to boost its dps even more by having better 3x EF uptime (it was at 3 stacks most of the time, but it was a bit finicky). This is while also having quite abundant energy (same deal w/ TK, not w/ Elec- due to LArc's high cost).

    Problem w/ Fire, being a 50ft set, is that you can potentially add stuff like Hydra or Pyro Blades, so I'm not sure where that 'intended' line falls.

    'Pet' rotation: add R3 Hydra and R3 Pyro Blades to the mix.


    (Incin crit rng is a tad worse on this one, and I prob could have done the rotation more optimally, but its still a boost).
    -

    For the helluvit, throwing some other 50fts in there:

    TGM + Frag Nade (EGO/Dex/Rec, R3 Targeting Comp, KI).


    50ft Sorc w/ Hex and Pillar buff (EGO/Dex/Int, R3 Enchanter, Conjuring).


    Sorc can obv go up to 100ft, though then you have to refresh Hexed some other way (Wisp is easiest, or use Eld Blast + AvMastery), and ofc Sorc has pets/sigils and more versatility, and TGM has mobility + an easy setup + Willpower. But I think Fire is doing pretty well for itself thus far.

    -
    edit: throwing in 100ft Sorc w/ Wisp + Guide and Cursed, cause I was curious:

    Pretty much like the 50ft version- lost time w/ Pillar is made up for w/ Hex's DoT, which Wisp lacks. 100ft version is very straightforward, tho.
    Post edited by flowcyto on
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  • aiqaaiqa Posts: 2,620 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    To underline the point about comparing parses. This is what you can get when really pushing for TK dps. Just added a 3rd AO, lowered health to buff imbue, and took Ebon Circle.


    Of course it's completely meaningless to compare this to my earlier parses, you can't say "oh so now TK does higher dps than Fire". The fire parse was done with less buffs and such. But unless there is some significant difference in how things scale or a bug, the difference in dps should still be more or less the same.

    Like there is actually a very good reason why Flowcyto's tests show TK a bit higher than lightning, and mine show Lightning a bit higher. The rupture from tk lance does not work with a DUC. That is something you can pinpoint and say, alright that is what is happening.
    Post edited by aiqa on
  • sergeantmahoff1sergeantmahoff1 Posts: 133 Arc User
    Lyn, why do you never post the full screen of your parses?
  • flowcytoflowcyto Posts: 12,316 Arc User
    I'm all for more people testing their own stuff to add more data- not trying to shut other people out here. Just want to reduce the amount of potential confounding variables I have between sets to lower potential bias, so I tend to keep it simple. But that's just my approach to it.
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