how to make combat more entertaining?

reiwulf

First of all take this with a grain of salt because 1've only ever played ATs, (still have my empty FF slot deciding what to do with it) and I'm not great at end game stuff that may require better coordination and meta builds.

How can I make battles more exciting and agile? In other MMOs I play(ed), including older ones like WOW, I've always enjoyed fast and agile classes that require some strategy, usually thieves or rogues. It means a lot of hiding, positioning for backstab, teleport in and out of battle, using traps to encase/disorient/stun your oponent, using evade skills, swithing poisons/bleeds, etc. It means I'm constantly moving around my target. even in PVE (unless it's just a boss type bag of HP)

But in this game, I've found myself using pretty much always the same skill against enemies. (not counting the autoattack) either my strongest skill, or an AoE skill if I have more than 1 enemy around me. Occasionaly a few others to bleed, or heal, but feels really really static. Maybe It's the ATs I've tried, but I have tried at least 6 different ones and they all pretty much feel and play similar in that aspect.

So, is there a way to make combat more fun and entertaining? do some ATs have useful skills besides lunges and knocks that make battle a little more fun than standing in front of an enemy pressing the same 1 or 2 skills all the time? do FFs have more freedom in that aspect? is there any kind of teleport/grapple/backstab/hide that makes for more agile and mobile fights?

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spinnytop

Have you tried soloing missions in the QWZ? Fact is, "old content" isn't going to give you what you're looking for since the mobs are just too weak to really put up a fight. Soloing in QWZ with a glass cannon type character might give you what you're looking for though - I always find that to be the most entertaining content personally and I like a lot of the same things you say you like. The mobs there actually have dangerous attacks that you'll want to avoid getting hit by ( like powerful telegraphed attacks that you'll want to los, block, out-range or interrupt ), so it requires more moving around and using things like knocks and holds to prevent them from getting at you.

No matter how much you gimp yourself, stuff like alerts and old missions will never really be thrilling anymore cause you're basically just knocking over cardboard cutouts. QWZ is content that's actually balanced for the current power level of 40s.

flyingfinn

Lassos.
Motherfunkin' lassos.
'nuff said.​​

markhawkman

I'd like more stuff like Red Winter alert that gives you a reason to use TPS in the fight.

roughbearmattach

Areas with revamped mobs, like Elder Worms, DEMON members, and Horrors (including their cultists in VB) are much tougher than most other mobs.

I take my controllers into the Q Warzone solo. These are toons with poor damage output and not the best defenses. On the other hand, they have an array of control powers with cooldowns, plus some self-heals and utilities. I have to be careful in the warzone--use hit and run tactics, carefully controlling some mobs while attacking others. I use a combination of teleportation and acrobatics (w/versatility adv) to stay mobile. It's very challenging, and I cannot solo this area with really focusing on the game.

kamokami

For me, it's the fights that require movement....those really stand out as being the most fun. Right now that's really Gravitar in TA and Eidolon.

tempestorm76

I simply make the combat more fluid by NOT standing still. I am, with most characters, strafing around and staying mobile so that combat is not so static.

I also really like the powers that fall under Movement. My twin blade character, for example, uses Smoke Bomb Lunge and tosses a smoke bomb before reappearing next to my target. There are also the lunge away abilities like parting shot, which I love with my twin pistol gunfighter.

But, I know what you mean about mobility in general. I used to love playing my shadow stepping rogue in WoW.

reiwulf

maybe, part of the problem is that the game is too easy. why doing complex battle strategy if standing in fron of your enemy pressing skill 2 is enough?
I was playing another game, and battles were HARD and made me look for strategy for optimal survival. that's what makes it interesting too.
in here it's either it's too easy or you get oneshoted

roughbearmattach

reiwulf said:

maybe, part of the problem is that the game is too easy. why doing complex battle strategy if standing in fron of your enemy pressing skill 2 is enough?
I was playing another game, and battles were HARD and made me look for strategy for optimal survival. that's what makes it interesting too.
in here it's either it's too easy or you get oneshoted

Play the hard content--there isn't much, but it's there.

Try to solo Andrith. Play QWZ.

reiwulf

yeah when I'm leveled enough I'll go there, I'm still only lv 25 or so. Also I'll probably just be oneshoted XD

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reiwulf

well that sounds much better ;D

lifeline99

There is a deceptive combo system in the game, but honestly it isn't fully realized unless you are into dueling. However in PvE content (our) knocks are either too overpowered to combo, or too underpowered to matter so they are hardly ever used. Then you have other forms of CC which buy you an unnoticeable few second half the time because of how the mechanics work. I agree, with other people that movement helps to spice things up (As long as you are not the tank for High end content, but that's super rare.)

spinnytop

gradii said:

You won't be one shotted, just juggled and stunned until you die.

If you play poorly, or go in expecting to be able to do well while playing poorly - same thing I guess.

reiwulf

but wasn't is designed for group play?

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championshewolf

gradii said:

spinnytop said:

gradii said:

You won't be one shotted, just juggled and stunned until you die.

If you play poorly, or go in expecting to be able to do well while playing poorly - same thing I guess.

You know I don't play poorly, you've run stuff with me.

Just because you've run with other people doesn't mean you are a good player. First of al, considering how rude and obnoxious you get when things don't go your way, I'd hardly call that being a good player. The fact you are heavily against team play and do everything to talk down in the content, that everyone else carried you through while proclaiming it was too hard after finishing runs in 30 minutes suggests you are a poor player.

magpieuk2014

I don't think CO's architecture is capable of delivering a console-style fluid combat experience, or even of matching the best, newer, MMOs. The client is a bit flaky, the server response often poor, the AI of enemies really, really dumb, and the issues with the huge variation in character and NPC power / potential makes it very difficult to balance - what can one-shot one level 40 through a block will be a gnat's bite on another. To counter that they've introduced any number of unblockable, undefendable mechanics, which (of course) just makes the slaughter of lower-powered characters faster. There's also the very dated and odd game world mechanics to consider, which makes the whole experience a bit off if you've not normalised it. In short... for challenging combat mechanics, go play another game.

Thoughbut: The QWZ does contain some hints at how they can improve things, but they'd have to make it less OP. In that zone there are enemies that use a measure of tactical nous, area denial weapons, summons, traps and self-heals..... but the damage levels are so high, the pace so rapid and the interface so poor* that unless your character already
can can survive it, you've got no chance of living long enough to work out how you might (it is, essentially, a turn based game in which most people get one turn, hence the lack of players in the zone).

* This is such an issue.... even in the normal game, there are enemies which have special attacks which can do quite significant damage and which need a particular approach. Good luck figuring out what they are, though, 'cause the game won't tell you. Qularr Bug-keepers using you as an incubator, an attack that takes 50% of your HP? Looks just like everything else.....

spinnytop

gradii said:

spinnytop said:

gradii said:

You won't be one shotted, just juggled and stunned until you die.

If you play poorly, or go in expecting to be able to do well while playing poorly - same thing I guess.

You know I don't play poorly, you've run stuff with me.

If you're getting "juggled and stunned until you die" in the QWZ then you're playing poorly.

ps - those who think themselves incapable of performing poorly are often the ones doing it most often since an inability to see your own mistakes makes it difficult to address them.

reiwulf said:

but wasn't is designed for group play?

Yes, and that's why it's fun figuring out how to solo it ( without going for the obvious, easy route of using a tanky character ).

magpieuk2014

those who think themselves incapable of performing poorly are often the ones doing it most often since an inability to see your own mistakes makes it difficult to address them

I thought you didn't believe in the Dunning-Kreuger effect? You seemed quite sniffy about it a while ago....

If you are going to use it as a line of argument, though, you do need to be objective and understand that high-skill and high-experience players often underestimate their relative competence and how difficult others might find things that they find easy. It's why they shouldn't be allowed to provide assessments of difficulty on content that's not intended for them.

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sterga

Not really. There would need to be AI changes and base code updates which I doubt is going to happen. Seems like the current solution is to make players take one more power for a debuff as a way to make combat more interesting and giving enemies obnoxious + massive damage powers.

It doesn't require too much for a build to solo through the Warzone. At that point, the control spam is just obnoxious... Well, it's obnoxious even with a weak character, but it won't kill you with a stronger one. When it was possible to nab objectives with stealth, people whined that it was cheating. That went bye-bye. But one-shotting the healer / bubbler npc with ranged attacks to instantly make the fight much easier isn't, of course.

Challenge comes from AI improvements not just giving enemies piles of damage. But that's basically what CO does in addition to forcing loss of character control so enemies can do more damage to you. If you want challenging or engaging content, it's not here in CO. This game was created in a time where AI was bad and combat restricted by what could be done with an online game. No significant improvements have been done to the core code of the game as far as I know, so all of those 2009 restrictions are still in play.

CO is the game you play to live out your power fantasy and make cool looking toons. It's never really been that game with involved combat mechanics.​​

reiwulf

thanks for the reply spinny, I wasn't sure
also I DO think the engine is capable of more fluid battlesystem, after all it's the same one as for NW (albeit an earlier version)

roughbearmattach

sterga said:

When it was possible to nab objectives with stealth, people whined that it was cheating. That went bye-bye. But one-shotting the healer / bubbler npc with ranged attacks to instantly make the fight much easier isn't, of course.

​​

Many of the QWZ missions can be stealth completed, still. I used that strategy a ton with my CCer, Sleight of Mind. In combination with strong CC, stealth is great.

spinnytop

magpieuk2014 said:

I thought you didn't believe in the Dunning-Kreuger effect? You seemed quite sniffy about it a while ago....

You sure that was me? Wouldn't be the first time someone has mistakenly attributed something someone else did to me due to being on the other side of a debate.

magpieuk2014 said:

If you are going to use it as a line of argument, though, you do need to be objective and understand that high-skill and high-experience players often underestimate their relative competence and how difficult others might find things that they find easy. It's why they shouldn't be allowed to provide assessments of difficulty on content that's not intended for them.

What does this have to do with this thread? Are you saying QWZ isn't intended for me? Not really sure where you're going with this... almost seems like you're trying to start a tangential debate.

gradii said:

Q zone damage definitely needs to come down. attacks which do so much damage need to be made avoidable.

They are avoidable, and avoiding them is what makes it fun for me.

sterga said:

But one-shotting the healer / bubbler npc with ranged attacks to instantly make the fight much easier isn't, of course.

You can do it with melee attacks as well. This method feels less cheaty because you actually have to fight the NPCs - stealth nabbing avoided that and didn't feel very heroic.

championshewolf

gradii said:

I'll remind you that wild, ad hominem attacks on other players, especially ones so ridiculous are not allowed.

Glad you know the rules then. But, please stop trying to back peddle and quit using words you obviously don't know the meaning of.

BTW, trying to impersonate a moderator or other such being of PWE is also against the rules. Just saying. So are threats if your intent is to some how scare me with your factually wrong misinformation.

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aesica

sterga wrote: »

Challenge comes from AI improvements not just giving enemies piles of stuns, knocks, and damage.

Fixed.

reiwulf wrote: »

also I DO think the engine is capable of more fluid battlesystem, after all it's the same one as for NW (albeit an earlier version)

That's the problem--CO is a MUCH earlier version. Both STO and NW have made significant improvements to the engine, but at this point, there's absolutely no guarantee that those improvements could be brought back to CO and pasted in. I'd actually be surprised if they could.

It's a lot like biological evolution, really. We may share a common ancestor with chimpanzees, but that doesn't mean we can produce viable offspring with them because our two species have drifted too far apart.

championshewolf wrote: »

BTW, trying to impersonate a moderator or other such being of PWE is also against the rules. Just saying. So are threats if your intent is to some how scare me with your factually wrong misinformation.

Here. I think this video belongs to you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95gwpIRbyig​​

reaperwithnoname

I would enjoy it if the game would, when your attacks are out of range, move you to within range instead of sitting there spamming messages telling you that you are out of range. We know it can be done because "run to target" exists.

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reaperwithnoname

If you're trying to attack while out of range, then you're clearly not trying to get out of the bad place.

spinnytop

I don't think it's too much to ask of the player to press the W key.

avianos

spinnytop wrote: »

I don't think it's too much to ask of the player to press the W key.

Gamepad's direction stick*​​

reaperwithnoname

spinnytop said:

I don't think it's too much to ask of the player to press the W key.

It's not an issue of it being too much to ask; it's an issue of time. That fraction of a second means a lot in some battles, eidolon being a major example.

But anyway, that's just something I'd do to make battles better.

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reiwulf

SOL?

pantagruel01

gradii said:

That's exactly the point, if you happened to be attacking at that second the circles appear you're SOL.

Well, it's probably no worse than if you happen to be using a self-rooting power, which you can generally release and move for. However, pretty sure it would require changes to a huge number of powers (basically every melee power in the game would have to become a combo power), so it seems like a non-starter.

roughbearmattach

S h i t O u t t a L u c k

SOL

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reiwulf

XD thanks

pantagruel01

gradii said:

roughbearmattach said:

S h i t O u t t a L u c k

SOL

So Out of Luck

Sorry, roughbearmattach is correct. I guess someone came up with a bowdlerized version.

magpieuk2014

spinnytop said:

You sure that was me? Wouldn't be the first time someone has mistakenly attributed something someone else did to me due to being on the other side of a debate.

Quite sure, ta.

spinnytop said:

What does this have to do with this thread? Are you saying QWZ isn't intended for me? Not really sure where you're going with this... almost seems like you're trying to start a tangential debate.

What I'm saying is that increasing difficulty - through increasing villain damage and the necessity of rote learning their attack patterns - is one way of making content more challenging, but maybe not more interesting. People say "I spend all my time pressing 2" because CO is a bit misleading in the game variety it offers. You would think that a game with a whole pile of power sets, roles and gear variations would provide lots of variation and accounting for permutations.... but it doesn't. In the end it all boils to down to damage, defence and healing, and whatever combination provides the best numbers. The game doesn't provide enough power variety for enemies, doesn't make them resistant enough to certain power types so that you have to build more broadly, doesn't make the player think that "I have to do something different here..." it's all a bit Yoda, do or do not...

magpieuk2014

For variety there needs to be an end to universal defence boosts and passives.... Invulnerability, for example, should be reduced to an Active Defense, capable of effecting a reduction in all damage for 30 seconds at a time. The passive for that set should be Armor Plated - massive increases in defence against physical damage and elemental forms such as ice, wind, fire... not so much against mental or supernatural powers. Every set should have its own specific defence orientated passive, and general ones should give a much lower benefit...

The same applies with gear. Instead of allowing people to stack general "defence", you could extend the mod system to make people collect and use special defence mods against specific damage types... that would mean a value to having multiple builds and prevent the acquisition of certain gear sets becoming game changing.

Without all that, you have the current situation... a superhero game which allows you to be Superman in a world without Kryptonite. Go figure....

aesica

magpieuk2014 wrote: »

Without all that, you have the current situation... a superhero game which allows you to be Superman in a world without Kryptonite. Go figure....

Except Invulnerability's "kryptonite" is anything that deals really large hits, since 150ish flat damage reduction means nothing against a 10,000 damage hit, and Invulnerability's percent-based damage reduction is inferior to that of Defiance or even AoRP.

While I can see why someone might like the idea of defensive passives with weaknesses, what that would actually do to players is force them to respec every time they wanted to engage in content that dealt damage their passive was weak against. Or they'd just have 2 or more different defensive passives to swap out, tying up advantage points and power slots. That's like giving bosses huge resistances to certain damage types and expecting DPS to switch out their powers all the time. It's just not reasonable for this type of game.​​

opalflame

magpieuk2014 said:

For variety there needs to be an end to universal defence boosts and passives.... Invulnerability, for example, should be reduced to an Active Defense, capable of effecting a reduction in all damage for 30 seconds at a time. The passive for that set should be Armor Plated - massive increases in defence against physical damage and elemental forms such as ice, wind, fire... not so much against mental or supernatural powers. Every set should have its own specific defence orientated passive, and general ones should give a much lower benefit...

The same applies with gear. Instead of allowing people to stack general "defence", you could extend the mod system to make people collect and use special defence mods against specific damage types... that would mean a value to having multiple builds and prevent the acquisition of certain gear sets becoming game changing.

Without all that, you have the current situation... a superhero game which allows you to be Superman in a world without Kryptonite. Go figure....

Yeah I'd rather not have to grind out a separate set of gear for each cosmic and shove in a bunch of powers that don't fit my theme just so that I can survive and damage everything. Honestly I'd probably quit if that happened.

opalflame

magpieuk2014 said:

For variety there needs to be an end to universal defence boosts and passives.... Invulnerability, for example, should be reduced to an Active Defense, capable of effecting a reduction in all damage for 30 seconds at a time. The passive for that set should be Armor Plated - massive increases in defence against physical damage and elemental forms such as ice, wind, fire... not so much against mental or supernatural powers. Every set should have its own specific defence orientated passive, and general ones should give a much lower benefit...

The same applies with gear. Instead of allowing people to stack general "defence", you could extend the mod system to make people collect and use special defence mods against specific damage types... that would mean a value to having multiple builds and prevent the acquisition of certain gear sets becoming game changing.

Without all that, you have the current situation... a superhero game which allows you to be Superman in a world without Kryptonite. Go figure....

Yeah I'd rather not have to grind out a separate set of gear for each cosmic and shove in a bunch of powers that don't fit my theme just so I can survive and do damage to everything. I'd probably quit if that happened.

reiwulf

many games have different defenses without that meaning needing a new set for everything.

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