I'd like to refine the problem statement a bit. Bad Tanking is super obvious....the Tanks die or lose aggro and everyone wipes. Bad Healing is less obvious but still pretty apparent. It causes Tanks to slowly die, doesn't get the DPS up fast enough during Eido, or causes too many deaths at Kiga.
What's not obvious is Bad DPS. That needs to be evened out so that DPS feels as much pressure as those doing the Tanking and Healing.
I think that most people actually want to get better. But very few people like being told to get better by someone else.
So ideally the game itself could provide the feedback that amounts to "good job" or if not that then "get better". Maybe if you do your part during the DPS check...aka you deal more damage than the amount you scale the check by...you get a nice animation or burst of color around you.
So ideally the game itself could provide the feedback that amounts to "good job" or if not that then "get better". Maybe if you do your part during the DPS check...aka you deal more damage than the amount you scale the check by...you get a nice animation or burst of color around you.
** Earned 1 atta-boy! **
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
I'd like to refine the problem statement a bit. Bad Tanking is super obvious....the Tanks die or lose aggro and everyone wipes. Bad Healing is less obvious but still pretty apparent. It causes Tanks to slowly die, doesn't get the DPS up fast enough during Eido, or causes too many deaths at Kiga.
What's not obvious is Bad DPS. That needs to be evened out so that DPS feels as much pressure as those doing the Tanking and Healing.
I think that most people actually want to get better. But very few people like being told to get better by someone else.
So ideally the game itself could provide the feedback that amounts to "good job" or if not that then "get better". Maybe if you do your part during the DPS check...aka you deal more damage than the amount you scale the check by...you get a nice animation or burst of color around you.
This would be amusing to see personally, and would be good individual feedback to the person contributing dps well.
I also wonder if there needs to be a general guide to building for good dps, or a link that we can send folks if they want to learn how to build for good dps.
EDIT: Also in the powers section I've seen pinned guides on everything for threat, aggro, specializations, healing and even a discussion on damage layers. I've not seeing anything for building good dps. Maybe because its really easy to do so but maybe someone could point to a quick one?
And the critical thing here is IF people want to learn. It needs to be stressed to folks that what they currently may be rocking build-wise is great for the rest of 90% of CO's content, but just may not be adequate for something like DINO. If they are resistant to fixing their build . . . then can't really help them.
I'd like to refine the problem statement a bit. Bad Tanking is super obvious....the Tanks die or lose aggro and everyone wipes. Bad Healing is less obvious but still pretty apparent. It causes Tanks to slowly die, doesn't get the DPS up fast enough during Eido, or causes too many deaths at Kiga.
What's not obvious is Bad DPS. That needs to be evened out so that DPS feels as much pressure as those doing the Tanking and Healing.
I think that most people actually want to get better. But very few people like being told to get better by someone else.
So ideally the game itself could provide the feedback that amounts to "good job" or if not that then "get better". Maybe if you do your part during the DPS check...aka you deal more damage than the amount you scale the check by...you get a nice animation or burst of color around you.
Forum ate my last post. This is a great idea and would be fun to see personally.
I would also suggest perhaps a place (guide to be made or existing guide?) where we can point folks to on how to build a proper dps.
@kamokamiUntil all frameworks get revised, telling other's the equivalent of "Good Job", "Nice Try" or "Get Better/Git Good" is going to encourage meta/conformity, and kinda discriminate the experience (Considering circumstantial variables) for some that are based on Diversity/Theme, until everything is viable their is going to be a slant in power building.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
@kamokamiUntil all frameworks get revised, telling other's the equivalent of "Good Job", "Nice Try" or "Get Better/Git Good" is going to encourage meta/conformity
I don't know of any powersets incapable of adequate performance (possible celestial dps is a fail), the required thresholds for being an asset to a fight just aren't that high.
@kamokami Until all frameworks get revised, telling other's the equivalent of "Good Job", "Nice Try" or "Get Better/Git Good" is going to encourage meta/conformity
I don't know of any powersets incapable of adequate performance (possible celestial dps is a fail), the required thresholds for being an asset to a fight just aren't that high.
Powersets as wholes, not so much... but the individual mini-sets and build possibilities within the powersets that haven't been revised are quite inadequate.
Force without Cascade
Wind as a whole
Telepathy as a whole
Ranged Telekinesis
Pet builds
Sorcery Sigils
Gadgeteer Pistols
Non-toggle Power Armor (Yes, this is a real thing)
Celestial DPS
Earth as a whole
Powersets as wholes, not so much... but the individual mini-sets and build possibilities within the powersets that haven't been revised are quite inadequate.
To the degree they're inadequate, they're inadequate for all content. The only ones that are specifically ineffective in cosmics, vs generically ineffective, are pets and sigils.
Powersets as wholes, not so much... but the individual mini-sets and build possibilities within the powersets that haven't been revised are quite inadequate.
To the degree they're inadequate, they're inadequate for all content. The only ones that are specifically ineffective in cosmics, vs generically ineffective, are pets and sigils.
To clarify: you mean they are bad in cosmics specifically. Cause sigils and pets don't seem all that ineffective to me in nearly every other situation in the game.
EDIT: I guess it depends on what you mean "ineffective". Is the baseline running alerts? Not being able to solo? what specifically? And compared to what? Wardicator builds? Full on Offensive builds? Full on defensive builds? Controller type builds that specialize in high Presence? Builds that can Solo QWZ content? ATs?
EDIT: I guess it depends on what you mean "ineffective". Is the baseline running alerts? Not being able to solo? what specifically? And compared to what? Wardicator builds? Full on Offensive builds? Full on defensive builds? Controller type builds that specialize in high Presence? Builds that can Solo QWZ content? ATs?
Builds that are reasonably designed. Yes, you can make terrible builds. There are even legitimate reasons to want to do that. Just don't use them for endgame content.
I also wonder if there needs to be a general guide to building for good dps, or a link that we can send folks if they want to learn how to build for good dps.
That's a great idea. I'd be happy to write such a guide.
And the critical thing here is IF people want to learn.
I think that's the big one. The people who want to learn typically also run adequate builds. And if not then they quickly make adjustments.
I still believe that most people want to learn. Just not if they are told to by someone else, which makes them respond defensively instead of keeping an open mind.
It needs to be stressed to folks that what they currently may be rocking build-wise is great for the rest of 90% of CO's content, but just may not be adequate for something like DINO. If they are resistant to fixing their build . . . then can't really help them.
I know of more than a few players who have the absolute best gear in the game running high dps builds that have been made for them....but they continue to have some of the highest death counts in every fight and very low dps output.
Conversely there are also lots of players running Merc gear with r5 mods and concept builds that a min-maxer like me cringes at....but they do more than their share during DPS checks.
It's mostly about knowing the fight and timing things correctly. If someone is motivated to learn the fight and practice then they are also able to figure out slight adjustments to their build that fit within their theme to help them do better.
@kamokamiUntil all frameworks get revised, telling other's the equivalent of "Good Job", "Nice Try" or "Get Better/Git Good" is going to encourage meta/conformity, and kinda discriminate the experience (Considering circumstantial variables) for some that are based on Diversity/Theme, until everything is viable their is going to be a slant in power building.
I don't think the options are so few that this would happen. Many more themes are viable than not. And maybe some themes should not be viable? I don't expect my super smart scientist to withstand getting bitten by the Dino.
Also the people who choose to ignore the feedback can continue to do so. But I think it would benefit those who want to improve...by having that feedback come from the game instead of their fellow players.
I'm going to write a guide for Cosmic DPS....and I think it'll be inclusive enough to encompass a very large variety of builds. Much much larger than what gets excluded.
As another note, I think the Cosmic revamp has by and large been a massive success. So I am glad it's not instanced content because participation has been very high.
I'd like more instanced content too, but I think that given the resources it was the right call to make. And is not so inaccessible as people make it out to be. Cosmic runs fill entire zones on an almost daily basis. It's not like all those people are running full Justice with r9 mods.....very few are and it makes very little difference.
So ideally the game itself could provide the feedback that amounts to "good job" or if not that then "get better". Maybe if you do your part during the DPS check...aka you deal more damage than the amount you scale the check by...you get a nice animation or burst of color around you.
I'd actually combine this with @coach's suggestion:
- Increase Death Penalty by a lot (genuinely consider 100k penalty to be fair, but 50k would work too) - Hitting a heart reflects 50k damage back (with the exception of mentalist powers) - Eidolon could be done in a way that when an Enervating Crystal spawns, everyone gets a debuff. If they fail to hit a Crystal within 10 seconds, they take 50k unblockable damage. Tanks and split should get a dummy "buff" from taking direct hits from Eidolon that makes them invulnerable to this debuff. - For Dino I cannot think of anything that would appropiately punish DPS that are slacking without accidentally also punishing healers and tanks
With this minor tweaks, people who are not contributing to the raids objective or are being harmful will get appropiately punished and their score would take enough of a hit for them not to get rewards, encouraging them to get better.
I haven't done Cosmics in ages. I don't like raids and I don't like how people get incredibly uptight about"winning" them. CO is a casual game. Like it or not. That means most players have less than maxed builds. Open content that everyone can do is part of that. For those players that want a more controlled min-max experience there is CO's gift to you: Teleios Ascendant.
But open world content is meant to have a relatively medium barrier to entry. If that is dissatisfying there are plenty of other games with protections like "gear check" that may be more to your liking. But that game isn't a casual game like CO.
Also, who says raids are supposed to succeed every single time? It's a game. In games sometimes you don't win. The entire possibility of not winning is what raises the stakes and excitement. Who wants to play somethig where they are guaranteed a win every time?
I don't like how people get incredibly uptight about"winning" them. CO is a casual game. Like it or not. That means most players have less than maxed builds. Open content that everyone can do is part of that.
Pretty much nailed it. It gets pretty tiresome to see the same people lobbying to change this game into something it'll never become due to its lack of development budget. If you (generic you, not the person I quoted) want a hardcore raid experience, maybe CO isn't for you. Perhaps you'd like something like WoW better, since it has a steady stream of closed-instance raid content with new and creative boss mechanics with every new raid. Get yourselves into mythic raiding and you'll have all the minmax challenge you could ever want. No leechers, either!
(Hopefully) Useful CO Resources: HeroCreator (character planner), Cosmic Timers/Alert Checklist, Blood Moon Map, Anniversary Cat Map, and more (eventually, anyway).
As another note, I think the Cosmic revamp has by and large been a massive success. So I am glad it's not instanced content because participation has been very high.
I'd like more instanced content too, but I think that given the resources it was the right call to make. And is not so inaccessible as people make it out to be. Cosmic runs fill entire zones on an almost daily basis. It's not like all those people are running full Justice with r9 mods.....very few are and it makes very little difference.
I at first wanted it to be instanced, but I hear they are working on that. Making the cosmics public was a good idea in the long run.
Lol suggesting increasing the death penalty when by all rights it should be removed.
I think the death penalty should stay the way it is. There are other suggestions made for improving participation. Whether we like it or not the cosmics are open missions.
EDIT: I guess it depends on what you mean "ineffective". Is the baseline running alerts? Not being able to solo? what specifically? And compared to what? Wardicator builds? Full on Offensive builds? Full on defensive builds? Controller type builds that specialize in high Presence? Builds that can Solo QWZ content? ATs?
Builds that are reasonably designed. Yes, you can make terrible builds. There are even legitimate reasons to want to do that. Just don't use them for endgame content.
A pet build is not automatically a terrible build. Nor is one with sigils. Yes they should not be brought into endgame content, but as I said they fine in 90% of the rest of the game. Just cause they can't rock in cosmic encounters doesn't mean they are terrible builds.
It just means there is some content certain builds can't do. That is in every game and that's fine. The bar for a good build should not be something that is meant as mostly 35+ content. The game doesn't start at 35.
Actually quite a few games make it very difficult if not impossible to have non functional builds for endgame. the freedom CO's build system gives you makes CO one of the few games where this is not the case.
Yes and those games have the staff and budget to make sure that is the case. CO stopped being a game with that luxury years ago. I should have clarified that "That is in every game of CO's level". Level as in with a small staff and budget.
City of Heroes also had the issue for some builds for some of the Incarnate Trials.
I haven't done Cosmics in ages. I don't like raids and I don't like how people get incredibly uptight about"winning" them. CO is a casual game. Like it or not.
That's really up to the developers now isn't it? Signs show that they are quite dilligently making it "not just a casual game".
That means most players have less than maxed builds.
And as has been repeatedly pointed out, this is not an issue. Also, the suggestions made are by and large not the type of thing that would require "maxed builds" (whatever you think that means). The suggestions require better play, not building - in case there's any confusion, "play" refers to pushing buttons at the right time, and paying attention and learning so that you know when the right time is.
Open content that everyone can do is part of that.
Sure, except for people who just refuse to pay attention and refuse to learn the fights. I'm all for inclusiveness, but not when it comes to people who are barely even really participating.
But open world content is meant to have a relatively medium barrier to entry. If that is dissatisfying there are plenty of other games with protections like "gear check" that may be more to your liking. But that game isn't a casual game like CO.
Yes, medium barrier. Currently it has a low barrier, so that barrier could do with some raising. I mean, the very fact that people can do things like afk through the fight, or participate for about a minute and then go sit on a hill watching youtube videos should indicate to anyone that the barrier is very very low... or practically nonexistent.
Also, who says raids are supposed to succeed every single time? It's a game. In games sometimes you don't win. Who wants to play somethig where they are guaranteed a win every time?
You're kind of contradicting yourself here. You don't want guaranteed wins, but you do want guaranteed rewards? Since you're okay with players not succeeding every time then that would logically mean that you're okay with players not getting rewarded every time if they didn't do well enough, wouldn't it?
Also, who says raids are supposed to succeed every single time? It's a game. In games sometimes you don't win. Who wants to play somethig where they are guaranteed a win every time?
You're kind of contradicting yourself here. You don't want guaranteed wins, but you do want guaranteed rewards? Since you're okay with players not succeeding every time then that would logically mean that you're okay with players not getting rewarded every time if they didn't do well enough, wouldn't it?
I don't see it as contradictory in the least. If you participate in a succuessfull cosmic fight then you should get a reward. But just because you participated in the fight doesnt mean the fight will always be a success.
That said, they can easily deal with AFKers by putting a decay on their contribution. Honestly it could even be a persistent decay through the whole fight to encourage people to put forth a real effort and learn the mechanics properly.
I don't see it as contradictory in the least. If you participate in a succuessfull cosmic fight then you should get a reward. But just because you participated in the fight doesnt mean the fight will always be a success.
I would say 'if you contributed to the success of a successful cosmic fight'.
That said, they can easily deal with AFKers by putting a decay on their contribution. Honestly it could even be a persistent decay through the whole fight to encourage people to put forth a real effort and learn the mechanics properly.
I get the feeling that the open mission code is quite limited, but if it were possible I'd do something like:
General: all scores decay by 1,000 per second.
Tanking: there is no credit for damage taken. Instead, Cosmic primary attacks apply or refresh Tanking, which is a credit over time effect (probably about 2,000/s for 10s).
Support: running support role AoRP, AoPM, or AoAC grants 500 score per second. Medical nanites and ebon destruction already have passive score gain, so don't need any further bonus.
Crowd Control: CC credit on dogs is increased to 500 per second per dog. CC credit on hearts is increased to 750 per second per heart. Eidelon CC credit might need to be very high or set oddly.
DPS: double credit for damage during dino DPS checks and damage to ice tombs, enervating crystals, shadow crystals, shadow portals. Zero credit for damage to hearts, dogs, hatchling, spawned portal guardians.
How about we forget about this ridiculous notion of a minimum threshold for open world content altogether and start asking for instanced fights if were so worried about leechers?
Go.Make.The.Topic
I was ignoring your posts for the last page because I considered after mentioning once that "this is not a topic to request for instanced content" I shouldn't have to do it again. But boy are you dense.
Also, who says raids are supposed to succeed every single time? It's a game. In games sometimes you don't win. The entire possibility of not winning is what raises the stakes and excitement.
I think you are confusing games with gambling, or PvE with PvP. In games where a boss has a scripted AI and as such are predictable on what they can do and when, winning every time is not only possible, but normal for people who bother to learn the fight.
And in the scenarios discussed in this topic where a handful of players who know the fight and are prepared for it end up having to hit their heads against a wall for 40 minutes because the wrong people showed up, if you consider that raids are like gambling it's more a case of you having a winning hand at poker and a random coming by and flipping the table on you.
For everyone claiming that this topic is looking to make Cosmics l33t only (just because I was the OP and you are making extrapolation by association) in no way has anyone suggested making Cosmics harder, only changing the way credit is awarded. With the changes people have suggested in this thread, a player who is not getting credit when he begins doing Cosmics but wants to learn the fights will be able to measure the progress he has made and eventually be rewarded for it; whereas a player who doesn't want to learn the fights and just wants to leech will be discouraged from doing so.
How about we forget about this ridiculous notion of a minimum threshold for open world content altogether and start asking for instanced fights if were so worried about leechers?
NO! That would result in Cosmics only being completed by elitists and SGs again. People who are in small or inactive SGs won't have much opportunity as forming PUGs for instanced Cosmics would be next to impossible, and when a PUG does manage to get formed it would almost always result in hours waisted on a failed run.
With the changes people have suggested in this thread, a player who is not getting credit when he begins doing Cosmics but wants to learn the fights will be able to measure the progress he has made and eventually be rewarded for it; whereas a player who doesn't want to learn the fights and just wants to leech will be discouraged from doing so.
I am all for this. It is frustrating and annoying for players to show up and not bother to learn (especially with zero chat), or wait while afk. I also am a believer in fair rewards--even if it has no impact on my rewards, and does not harm the chance of the run being successful, I do not want folks to get rewards who didn't participate in a helpful way.
Yes, when people get the same reward as me, but did nothing, it does take away from my enjoyment. It just does.
Shrug. if you design a boss properly its entirely possible for it to be difficult yet puggable/ I'm playing a game which accomplishes that at every turn and having a blast.
Do you post on that game's forum as much as you post in here? I'm also playing such a game and it's called Champions Online. Just because something can be improved doesn't mean it's terrible.
Why is it that most of the people who passionately oppose changes to Cosmic fights are also the people who don't participate in them?
Shrug. if you design a boss properly its entirely possible for it to be difficult yet puggable/ I'm playing a game which accomplishes that at every turn and having a blast.
Either your definition of 'difficult' or your definition of 'pug' needs some work. Fundamentally, unless you have a ladder or similar means of filtering potential players for skill and dedication, puggable content needs to be doable with one or more players underperforming, and/or a mix of characters that are poorly suited to the challenge. This means the same content, done by a premade group, will not be difficult.
How about we forget about this ridiculous notion of a minimum threshold for open world content altogether and start asking for instanced fights if were so worried about leechers?
I acknowledge your request, and decline it. Maybe figuring out a score system that prevents leachers is too complicated a topic for you, but clearly there are people willing to tackle it. So, how about you stop participating in the thread if you so vehemently oppose its purpose? We get it, you voted "No" on the entire concept. Vote counted.
How about we forget about this ridiculous notion of a minimum threshold for open world content altogether and start asking for instanced fights if were so worried about leechers?
Go.Make.The.Topic
I was ignoring your posts for the last page because I considered after mentioning once that "this is not a topic to request for instanced content" I shouldn't have to do it again. But boy are you dense.
Also, who says raids are supposed to succeed every single time? It's a game. In games sometimes you don't win. The entire possibility of not winning is what raises the stakes and excitement.
I think you are confusing games with gambling, or PvE with PvP. In games where a boss has a scripted AI and as such are predictable on what they can do and when, winning every time is not only possible, but normal for people who bother to learn the fight.
And in the scenarios discussed in this topic where a handful of players who know the fight and are prepared for it end up having to hit their heads against a wall for 40 minutes because the wrong people showed up, if you consider that raids are like gambling it's more a case of you having a winning hand at poker and a random coming by and flipping the table on you.
For everyone claiming that this topic is looking to make Cosmics l33t only (just because I was the OP and you are making extrapolation by association) in no way has anyone suggested making Cosmics harder, only changing the way credit is awarded. With the changes people have suggested in this thread, a player who is not getting credit when he begins doing Cosmics but wants to learn the fights will be able to measure the progress he has made and eventually be rewarded for it; whereas a player who doesn't want to learn the fights and just wants to leech will be discouraged from doing so.
My problem is I just don't think the devs could implement anything in a way that wouldn't be broken for weeks or months at a time. Whatever they do needs to be done cautiously. And as someone else pointed out I'm not too sure the open mission code is all that advanced. The decaying contribution idea (if doable) and the visual cue that you are doing a good job are the best suggestions to come out of this so far.
Not everyone optimizes their characters or minmaxes. Yes that is a problem with any of those terrible suggestions.
Not everyone includes con, dex, or ego in their super stats. Not everyone uses vind/ward or guard/vind. Just because someone isn't willing/able (*due to retcon costs*) to change their build to fit what you consider good/optimized doesn't mean they don't care or aren't trying. Those players shouldn't be barred from getting the rewards because they don't met your 'criteria' or meet your 'standards'.
I was wondering about scaling the rewards a bit depending on certain thresholds being met. I.e., you show up and do the minimum and you get the minimum. You do more and you get more. Maybe 3 stages, with the last one being reasonably attainable by those putting in effort to learn the fight and participate all the way through. A straight line, not logarithmic progression. I say this because even beginners like to get some reward for their efforts (not a cruddy piece of green gear). If a beginner shows up for dino and stays for an entire 2 hour effort and gets nothing for his/her effort it might turn that person off from trying again. Some people respond better to a carrot than a stick.
almost on the 4th page...have we accomplished anything yet??
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
I was wondering about scaling the rewards a bit depending on certain thresholds being met. I.e., you show up and do the minimum and you get the minimum. You do more and you get more. Maybe 3 stages, with the last one being reasonably attainable by those putting in effort to learn the fight and participate all the way through. A straight line, not logarithmic progression. I say this because even beginners like to get some reward for their efforts (not a cruddy piece of green gear). If a beginner shows up for dino and stays for an entire 2 hour effort and gets nothing for his/her effort it might turn that person off from trying again. Some people respond better to a carrot than a stick.
I was wondering about scaling the rewards a bit depending on certain thresholds being met. I.e., you show up and do the minimum and you get the minimum. You do more and you get more. Maybe 3 stages, with the last one being reasonably attainable by those putting in effort to learn the fight and participate all the way through. A straight line, not logarithmic progression. I say this because even beginners like to get some reward for their efforts (not a cruddy piece of green gear). If a beginner shows up for dino and stays for an entire 2 hour effort and gets nothing for his/her effort it might turn that person off from trying again. Some people respond better to a carrot than a stick.
So... going back to the "your score determines your rewards" thing that we had that everyone complained about for years and cheered when they stopped doing? I guess it would have to depend on what thresholds you're talking about, but this sounds like the kind of thing that would make people feel like they need to make min/max builds in order to attain the highest tier of rewards, otherwise it's "not worth it".
A "begginer" who's been at the fight for 2 hours should logically have attained any sort of "minimum contribution threshold" that any suggestion puts forth, so implying someone in that scenario might only be "getting a stick" seems unrealistic.
Not everyone optimizes their characters or minmaxes. Yes that is a problem with any of those terrible suggestions.
Not everyone includes con, dex, or ego in their super stats. Not everyone uses vind/ward or guard/vind. Just because someone isn't willing/able (*due to retcon costs*) to change their build to fit what you consider good/optimized doesn't mean they don't care or aren't trying. Those players shouldn't be barred from getting the rewards because they don't met your 'criteria' or meet your 'standards'.
Everyone has a block, and movement keys. You don't need to build for those.
So... going back to the "your score determines your rewards" thing that we had that everyone complained about for years and cheered when they stopped doing?
yeah, because that is EXACTLY what is proposing, except it isn't... but you know that, you just like to see yourself type...
lets see... old way... score highest get a biggest prize, current way score 100k+ get a reward, all or nothing. What he's proposing, score 100k get minimal reward, score 200k get med reward, score 300k get full reward or whatever is reasonable for a normal run for someone who is actually participating...
100k - 300k wouldn't be a wide enough spread to be meaningful. Point is, rewards used to be based on your score, which essentially means that players are competing against each other at the event, and people generally seemed to dislike it.
100k - 300k wouldn't be a wide enough spread to be meaningful.
guess you glossed over this part... "or whatever is reasonable for a normal run for someone who is actually participating... "
That reasonable amount is one number. We don't need a tier system, we just need one threshold and mechanics that make players have to actively participate to achieve it. I don't really like the idea of a system that slows down a player's progression when they're already behind, and them being behind is the basis for slowing it down. If you actively contributed, you get the reward. Tiered system just reinforces the idea of people needing to "min/max" their builds, and that's something I don't want.
Comments
What's not obvious is Bad DPS. That needs to be evened out so that DPS feels as much pressure as those doing the Tanking and Healing.
I think that most people actually want to get better. But very few people like being told to get better by someone else.
So ideally the game itself could provide the feedback that amounts to "good job" or if not that then "get better". Maybe if you do your part during the DPS check...aka you deal more damage than the amount you scale the check by...you get a nice animation or burst of color around you.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
I also wonder if there needs to be a general guide to building for good dps, or a link that we can send folks if they want to learn how to build for good dps.
EDIT: Also in the powers section I've seen pinned guides on everything for threat, aggro, specializations, healing and even a discussion on damage layers. I've not seeing anything for building good dps. Maybe because its really easy to do so but maybe someone could point to a quick one?
And the critical thing here is IF people want to learn. It needs to be stressed to folks that what they currently may be rocking build-wise is great for the rest of 90% of CO's content, but just may not be adequate for something like DINO. If they are resistant to fixing their build . . . then can't really help them.
I would also suggest perhaps a place (guide to be made or existing guide?) where we can point folks to on how to build a proper dps.
That is IF folks are willing to learn!!!!
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
SIGNATURE:
Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Powersets as wholes, not so much... but the individual mini-sets and build possibilities within the powersets that haven't been revised are quite inadequate.
Force without Cascade
Wind as a whole
Telepathy as a whole
Ranged Telekinesis
Pet builds
Sorcery Sigils
Gadgeteer Pistols
Non-toggle Power Armor (Yes, this is a real thing)
Celestial DPS
Earth as a whole
And various combinations of powersets.
To clarify: A bad build in terms of what may be needed for SOME Cosmics.
It's MAY be just just fine in 90% of the rest of the game.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
EDIT: I guess it depends on what you mean "ineffective". Is the baseline running alerts? Not being able to solo? what specifically? And compared to what? Wardicator builds? Full on Offensive builds? Full on defensive builds? Controller type builds that specialize in high Presence? Builds that can Solo QWZ content? ATs?
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I still believe that most people want to learn. Just not if they are told to by someone else, which makes them respond defensively instead of keeping an open mind. I know of more than a few players who have the absolute best gear in the game running high dps builds that have been made for them....but they continue to have some of the highest death counts in every fight and very low dps output.
Conversely there are also lots of players running Merc gear with r5 mods and concept builds that a min-maxer like me cringes at....but they do more than their share during DPS checks.
It's mostly about knowing the fight and timing things correctly. If someone is motivated to learn the fight and practice then they are also able to figure out slight adjustments to their build that fit within their theme to help them do better.
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Also the people who choose to ignore the feedback can continue to do so. But I think it would benefit those who want to improve...by having that feedback come from the game instead of their fellow players.
I'm going to write a guide for Cosmic DPS....and I think it'll be inclusive enough to encompass a very large variety of builds. Much much larger than what gets excluded.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
I'd like more instanced content too, but I think that given the resources it was the right call to make. And is not so inaccessible as people make it out to be. Cosmic runs fill entire zones on an almost daily basis. It's not like all those people are running full Justice with r9 mods.....very few are and it makes very little difference.
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
- Increase Death Penalty by a lot (genuinely consider 100k penalty to be fair, but 50k would work too)
- Hitting a heart reflects 50k damage back (with the exception of mentalist powers)
- Eidolon could be done in a way that when an Enervating Crystal spawns, everyone gets a debuff. If they fail to hit a Crystal within 10 seconds, they take 50k unblockable damage. Tanks and split should get a dummy "buff" from taking direct hits from Eidolon that makes them invulnerable to this debuff.
- For Dino I cannot think of anything that would appropiately punish DPS that are slacking without accidentally also punishing healers and tanks
With this minor tweaks, people who are not contributing to the raids objective or are being harmful will get appropiately punished and their score would take enough of a hit for them not to get rewards, encouraging them to get better.
But open world content is meant to have a relatively medium barrier to entry. If that is dissatisfying there are plenty of other games with protections like "gear check" that may be more to your liking. But that game isn't a casual game like CO.
Also, who says raids are supposed to succeed every single time? It's a game. In games sometimes you don't win. The entire possibility of not winning is what raises the stakes and excitement. Who wants to play somethig where they are guaranteed a win every time?
It just means there is some content certain builds can't do. That is in every game and that's fine. The bar for a good build should not be something that is meant as mostly 35+ content. The game doesn't start at 35.
City of Heroes also had the issue for some builds for some of the Incarnate Trials.
ps - "less than maxed" =/= "terrible build"
Sure, except for people who just refuse to pay attention and refuse to learn the fights. I'm all for inclusiveness, but not when it comes to people who are barely even really participating.
TA doesn't require min-maxing in the least. So no, it's not.
Yes, medium barrier. Currently it has a low barrier, so that barrier could do with some raising. I mean, the very fact that people can do things like afk through the fight, or participate for about a minute and then go sit on a hill watching youtube videos should indicate to anyone that the barrier is very very low... or practically nonexistent.
You're kind of contradicting yourself here. You don't want guaranteed wins, but you do want guaranteed rewards? Since you're okay with players not succeeding every time then that would logically mean that you're okay with players not getting rewarded every time if they didn't do well enough, wouldn't it?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
That said, they can easily deal with AFKers by putting a decay on their contribution. Honestly it could even be a persistent decay through the whole fight to encourage people to put forth a real effort and learn the mechanics properly.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I was ignoring your posts for the last page because I considered after mentioning once that "this is not a topic to request for instanced content" I shouldn't have to do it again. But boy are you dense. I think you are confusing games with gambling, or PvE with PvP. In games where a boss has a scripted AI and as such are predictable on what they can do and when, winning every time is not only possible, but normal for people who bother to learn the fight.
And in the scenarios discussed in this topic where a handful of players who know the fight and are prepared for it end up having to hit their heads against a wall for 40 minutes because the wrong people showed up, if you consider that raids are like gambling it's more a case of you having a winning hand at poker and a random coming by and flipping the table on you.
For everyone claiming that this topic is looking to make Cosmics l33t only (just because I was the OP and you are making extrapolation by association) in no way has anyone suggested making Cosmics harder, only changing the way credit is awarded. With the changes people have suggested in this thread, a player who is not getting credit when he begins doing Cosmics but wants to learn the fights will be able to measure the progress he has made and eventually be rewarded for it; whereas a player who doesn't want to learn the fights and just wants to leech will be discouraged from doing so.
NO! That would result in Cosmics only being completed by elitists and SGs again. People who are in small or inactive SGs won't have much opportunity as forming PUGs for instanced Cosmics would be next to impossible, and when a PUG does manage to get formed it would almost always result in hours waisted on a failed run.
Yes, when people get the same reward as me, but did nothing, it does take away from my enjoyment. It just does.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Why is it that most of the people who passionately oppose changes to Cosmic fights are also the people who don't participate in them?
PARSER USAGE GUIDE: click here for an easy how-to ٩(๑･ิᴗ･ิ)۶٩(･ิᴗ･ิ๑)۶
Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Not everyone includes con, dex, or ego in their super stats. Not everyone uses vind/ward or guard/vind. Just because someone isn't willing/able (*due to retcon costs*) to change their build to fit what you consider good/optimized doesn't mean they don't care or aren't trying. Those players shouldn't be barred from getting the rewards because they don't met your 'criteria' or meet your 'standards'.
Courage is doing what is right even when it isn't popular or safe. Honor is retaining the dignity and virtue in one's self, so it can light the way for others in the darkest of times. Compassion is showing patience and mercy towards others, even when it isn't returned or deserved. A hero is defined by these 3 words, they set him apart from others as a beacon of hope and excellence.
A "begginer" who's been at the fight for 2 hours should logically have attained any sort of "minimum contribution threshold" that any suggestion puts forth, so implying someone in that scenario might only be "getting a stick" seems unrealistic.
Everyone has a block, and movement keys. You don't need to build for those.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
yeah, exactly the same as the old way....
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.