So then after the fail, 10 minutes passed by and you organized a team and started your own run. Right?
If you're frustrated with how a run is being led then I'd highly suggest organizing your own so that you don't have to put up with things you consider bs.
What the heck is that nonsense? How is that "building community"?
You would have to ask that specific person that. Just keep in mind that if that's a vet with access to the vet community then they had a choice - go run stuff with the vets and just scoop up big handfuls of rewards easy, or spend their time organizing newbies and quite possibly not getting very much out of it other than teaching some new people how to do stuff. So yeah, maybe they weren't super gentle about it, but yeah they were helping to build the community up with their actions.
See I don't know who it was so I don't even know if it was a vet, or if they were a newbie themselves. A good general rule though is whoever is willing to be the organizer gets to call the shots. If you don't like it, leave their run and start your own later, like Vixy said.
Just remember, the vets always do this "teaching newbie" stuff at their own expense with the hope of a future return - if the vet doing the runs on the day you talk about is one of the ones I think it was then I'm pretty impressed because they're the type who think there is no possibility of future return. Honestly the best thing you can do in that case is be thick skinned and show them that they're wrong and that you are good enough to be there.
@pantagruel01Sounds like segregation, I haven't played OM's since the scaling patch, is it really that bad that you're willing to exclude fellow players from participating?
It is really that bad that we HAVE to exclude fellow players. I hate doing it, but I hate failing more. A few of us, 8-10 of the right people, can quickly clear out the OMs and allow more people to do Eddy.
If 20-30 people try to do the OMs, the failure rate is at least 80 percent, and even in the 20 percent of times that succeed, it takes 3-5x longer. This wastes everyone's time, even those who are waiting. As I started out in this thread, but doing it with the elite death-squad, this frees the other players up to do more productive things, like run alerts or farm stuff for costume unlocks or do OV dailies. Then, once Eddy is open, they just come and finish that out, get their GCR and everyone wins.
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The region around each open mission that triggers encounter scaling is significantly larger than the mission, but not the entire size of the subzone. It's probably the same as the radius at which Gravity is applied.
Encounter scaling starts below 10. In general you can keep an eye on the bosses' max hp to know how it's scaling, smallest I've seen is something like 2.6 million, and once it's over 4 million or so the tank's job becomes quite hard. Easiest team is probably around 8 (tank, off-tank, healers, 5 dps).
If 20-30 people try to do the OMs, the failure rate is at least 80 percent, and even in the 20 percent of times that succeed, it takes 3-5x longer. This wastes everyone's time, even those who are waiting. As I started out in this thread, but doing it with the elite death-squad, this frees the other players up to do more productive things, like run alerts or farm stuff for costume unlocks or do OV dailies. Then, once Eddy is open, they just come and finish that out, get their GCR and everyone wins.
It's weird that this is the result of the Warzone OM design. A couple smaller teams (maybe just one) do the OMs, while a pile of heroes waits to pile on for Eidolon. It definitely works, but it definitely wasn't the intent.
Of course, it you are in the middle of an alert or rampage when the come join the party cry goes out you run the risk of not making it in under the zone cap. Sure, sure you could start another try on the OMs in the other zone. I'm just commenting that doing these sorts of things, where you have to leave the Qzone, do come with the risk of missing out on the run you were aiming for. Too bad there isn't a "Defend the Alamo" activity right at the terminus base that can be done while waiting there.
You could form your own team and do the *other OMs* in the *same* zone. All in all.....there is really no excuse for jumping into a premade team currently doing an OM.
They're available every 10 minutes. And it only takes a team of 5 to do it....same makeup as TA. The "vets" are only that because they ran the OMs when they did not know what to do. When they did not expect success.....more than that actually....they ran the OMs when they *expected* failure.
So do the same thing. Stop waiting for other people to do stuff for you. Nobody is obligated to be inclusive and nobody is obligated to provide explanations.
Personally I do practice runs, write guides, provide build advice, and give away gear for very selfish reasons. I do it because I expect that more people will be available to play the content I like to play. I want more "elites" "vets"...etc...who, by the way, do these runs with garbage gear + unoptimized wacky builds + make lots of mistakes.
Literally the only thing that makes them "elite" is their willingness to try stuff while expecting it to fail. This gives them experience with challenging content that others lack.
If you're reading this thread, at least do this much: This week, *try* to get a team of five to come out and attempt an OM once. Just ask in Cosmic HQ. Or show up when the call goes out. That's it...don't need to succeed, be "good", etc.....just need to try.
If you do this, quote this post and say "I did it" in this thread and I will help in any way I can (I can help a lot) and include you in any run that I organize (I run them a lot).
It's weird that this is the result of the Warzone OM design. A couple smaller teams (maybe just one) do the OMs, while a pile of heroes waits to pile on for Eidolon.
You can reasonably use the same team for the OMs as you use for the Eidelon -- if you have, say, 15-20 people, you split them in half for OMs, the team that finishes first does the third OM (while the other team sits), and then everyone goes to the Eidelon.
It's weird that this is the result of the Warzone OM design. A couple smaller teams (maybe just one) do the OMs, while a pile of heroes waits to pile on for Eidolon. It definitely works, but it definitely wasn't the intent.
It would be weird in another MMO, but it's not weird in our little community of gamers o3o
What would be REALLY nice, in ALL the Cosmics, would be if there were a little counter next to your character, that only you could see, that would tell you your current score on the cosmic. That way, people would know when they got to 100,000. Then, those not pulling their weight could step off and let everyone else finish up, but still get credit. This would speed things up for everyone. It would mean that everyone could get credit without having to wait for so long.
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Yeah, let's DO talk about yesterday. That "leader" you speak of organized not 1, but 2 learning runs. The first one where he explained and gave tips over zone chat, all of them failed as expected, but then he went on a 2nd run so that people could put what they learned into practice. Since the OMs all failed cause of timeout, that's a minimum of 1 hour that "leader" dedicated to teaching people how to do the OMs. Certainly more time that you put into writing your post and thinking it was a helpful contribution for the community. Thank you.
And again, what has been said countless times in this thread. You don't like the way someone runs the show, then don't show up. You start your own runs. After they do theirs or parallel to it, it doesn't matter. But you take actions into your hands, cause again, what sort of entitlement do you possess that not only do you want vets to organize learning/succesful runs for you, but also in a way that satisfies your standards? Wanna know what the result of your behavior will have? The vets will get tired and organize private runs, or leave. This has been discussed before in this topic: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1205756/evaporative-cooling-of-cosmics/p1 (which incidentally is why I no longer organize runs, nor go out of my way to cover the essential roles such as tanking or CCing)
If said "leader" was being irrational at wanting 2 teams of 5 people to do the OMs and wouldn't listen to you pointing out how irrational he was, then you organize your own raid with what you think would be optimal and include/exclude as many players as you want.
"Well, if you aren't good enough then you'll just have to leave the zone and make room for someone else" or something very close to that.
What the heck is that nonsense? How is that "building community"?
Let's make a bad extrapolation into a fast food chain. You have 20 customers on a tight schedule waiting for their hamburger, but the employee you currently have working the grill is slow af. You, as a leader, with 20 people expecting you to fulfill their demands will a) tell the current employee working the grill to switch places with someone faster or b) do nothing because you might hurt his feelings? If you choose b, then I'm afraid you are not cut out to be a leader, because you are putting the feelings of the one over the needs of the many. In warzone you have 20+ players with limited playtime wanting to have a succesful run and not spend 1 hour bashing their heads against a wall. Being a leader is hard and sometimes you have to make a hard choice. What the leader of the run did was the right choice in this case.
The region around each open mission that triggers encounter scaling is significantly larger than the mission, but not the entire size of the subzone. It's probably the same as the radius at which Gravity is applied.
To be more precise:
- Portal Guardian only scales within the area of the team up - Oubliette scales further than the teamup option, until you are no longer affected by the Gravity Debuff - Slug scales further than the Team Up cube: south all the way to the arch, and all around the 6 pillars, aka. the quest zone. So in the case of Slug, he gets buffed by people doing quests in that area.
If said "leader" was being irrational at wanting 2 teams of 5 people to do the OMs and wouldn't listen to you pointing out how irrational he was, then you organize your own raid with what you think would be optimal and include/exclude as many players as you want.
So, first of all, let's be realistic here. Wanting 2 teams of 5 to do OMs is in no way irrational. In actuality, it is the best way to do it. Well, if you mean that each team of 5 does a different OM. That is the best way. It is especially the best way to practice.
5 people are enough to take down any of the OMs. By practicing with 5, it gives more flexibility. That means that the OMs can be unlocked with any number from 15 to 30 people, or even as low as 5, if they are fast. Just gives everyone more options.
Practicing with 5 per OM is definitely not irrational.
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So, first of all, let's be realistic here. Wanting 2 teams of 5 to do OMs is in no way irrational. In actuality, it is the best way to do it. Well, if you mean that each team of 5 does a different OM. That is the best way. It is especially the best way to practice.
5 people are enough to take down any of the OMs. By practicing with 5, it gives more flexibility. That means that the OMs can be unlocked with any number from 15 to 30 people, or even as low as 5, if they are fast. Just gives everyone more options.
Practicing with 5 per OM is definitely not irrational.
I know. I even said so yesterday during the practice runs that the best way to learn attack patterns is in smaller groups since there's less Skill FX covering up the bosses animations.
What I was pointing out is that if mithros thought this was irrational, then he can start his own rational raids instead of 1) disrupting the current raid, and 2) coming to the forums to do...whatever the hell his original post intended to do
What would be REALLY nice, in ALL the Cosmics, would be if there were a little counter next to your character, that only you could see, that would tell you your current score on the cosmic. That way, people would know when they got to 100,000. Then, those not pulling their weight could step off and let everyone else finish up, but still get credit. This would speed things up for everyone. It would mean that everyone could get credit without having to wait for so long.
I get the feeling this is something they don't actually want happening. After all, the contribution award was put in place to prevent leeching - your counter would then once again promote it leeching. Get my 100k and then sit back and wait for my free rewards!
Personally I'm not comfortable with the idea of people accepting the idea that they're "dead weight" and then doing what you suggest, because that means that they have accepted a process that will never see them improving.
Not to mention that it's preeeetty preeety easy to tell if you already made the 100k contribution or not just by knowing the average DPS of your toon. For instance on my PA I know that by the 3rd AoE of Qwyjibo at worst (depending on number of debuffs/auras, generally at 2nd AoE I already made it) I already have enough credit for contribution.
Personally I'm not comfortable with the idea of people accepting the idea that they're "dead weight" and then doing what you suggest, because that means that they have accepted a process that will never see them improving.
Actually, this is a good point. Vet players want more people to learn and succeed. I so often see vets organizing, putting out the call in the public Cosmic HQ channel, being patient. I've done it a bit myself, but after a day of herding cats teaching high school students, I don't usually have the energy for it.
Anyway, how about a mission with some rewards for beating a Nightmare Colossus? Would give people something to do while waiting, and could give folks some teamup practice in QWZ, too, with lower stakes.
Let's have the best of both worlds. Have one of those Nightmare Colossi attack the Terminus Base and the heroes hanging out there have to defend it. The NC itself doesn't scale up with more heroes present, but more lesser creatures show up to assist it. This attack would only happen if there are some number of players at one of the OMs. Give it the same rewards as a daily.
Let's have the best of both worlds. Have one of those Nightmare Colossi attack the Terminus Base and the heroes hanging out there have to defend it. The NC itself doesn't scale up with more heroes present, but more lesser creatures show up to assist it. This attack would only happen if there are some number of players at one of the OMs. Give it the same rewards as a daily.
That would be cool. Even a "survive and keep folks alive" scenario--just hold the beast off.
This is actually a good idea. You defeat one OM and mobs from that OM start attacking the Until base. While one or two teams are doing the OMs, a third team needs to help defend the Until base. One you defeat the 2nd OM, that OM's mobs start attacking Until base too. Eidolon unlocks if Until Base is still up when the 3 OMs are down.
This way, it opens up more possibilities like a) first team to beat an OM goes to the 3rd one, and the 2nd team to beat OM retreats back to help defend Until or b) 1 death squad team does all the OMs, while the players that are not familiar with the OMs defend Until Base.
What would be REALLY nice, in ALL the Cosmics, would be if there were a little counter next to your character, that only you could see, that would tell you your current score on the cosmic. That way, people would know when they got to 100,000. Then, those not pulling their weight could step off and let everyone else finish up, but still get credit. This would speed things up for everyone. It would mean that everyone could get credit without having to wait for so long.
Honestly, anyone who isn't pulling their weight shouldn't get credit; the only reason they do is because the tools for detecting who is pulling their weight are limited.
@pantagruel01Sounds like segregation, I haven't played OM's since the scaling patch, is it really that bad that you're willing to exclude fellow players from participating?
It is really that bad that we HAVE to exclude fellow players. I hate doing it, but I hate failing more. A few of us, 8-10 of the right people, can quickly clear out the OMs and allow more people to do Eddy.
If 20-30 people try to do the OMs, the failure rate is at least 80 percent, and even in the 20 percent of times that succeed, it takes 3-5x longer. This wastes everyone's time, even those who are waiting. As I started out in this thread, but doing it with the elite death-squad, this frees the other players up to do more productive things, like run alerts or farm stuff for costume unlocks or do OV dailies. Then, once Eddy is open, they just come and finish that out, get their GCR and everyone wins.
Except, as mentioned earlier, with the smaller zone cap and the infrequency of Eidolon runs, people generally will not do anything "productive".
They will get to the base and wait because running alerts or knocking out that nemesis mission or whatever else they could be doing now might very well mean that they can not enter the zone later.
And some people don't do so good with the waiting thing.
There's another problem. The OM kill perks are tied to items in the GCR store. So, for some players the very recognition they're farming for, for stuff to buy, might just be a waste of time when all is said and done. If they're told to sit out.
So, remove the perk requirement or things continue to be borked at best.
There's another problem. The OM kill perks are tied to items in the GCR store. So, for some players the very recognition they're farming for, for stuff to buy, might just be a waste of time when all is said and done. If they're told to sit out.
Let's be honest here: if you organize a run, you're not going to be told to sit out. Sitting out is for people who want to attach themselves to a run someone else organized -- and while those people might be nice enough to help you get what you want, they're under no obligation to do so.
There's another problem. The OM kill perks are tied to items in the GCR store. So, for some players the very recognition they're farming for, for stuff to buy, might just be a waste of time when all is said and done. If they're told to sit out.
So, remove the perk requirement or things continue to be borked at best.
Eh, how is that a problem? The OMs are available to you all day long, all you have to do is say "Hey guys let's farm OMs for perks". You could grab a few of your buddies and do it and have all the perks you need in short order. Are people not aware that the OMs unlock again just a few minutes after being completed? Are people under the impression that you need vets there to do them? Cause you don't.
What would be REALLY nice, in ALL the Cosmics, would be if there were a little counter next to your character, that only you could see, that would tell you your current score on the cosmic. That way, people would know when they got to 100,000. Then, those not pulling their weight could step off and let everyone else finish up, but still get credit. This would speed things up for everyone. It would mean that everyone could get credit without having to wait for so long.
Honestly, anyone who isn't pulling their weight shouldn't get credit; the only reason they do is because the tools for detecting who is pulling their weight are limited.
Would you rather them hang around and make it impossible for the rest of us to get rewards, too?
Honestly, I really couldn't give a flip if the power-challenged get credit, as long as they do not keep me from doing so. And I mean that in the good way. This pretty much solves every single problem. In this way, the casuals, the RPers, the newbies, the theme builders and other non-hardcore players can get credit without having to go through the mayhem for hours on end. They could jump in, do their 100,000, then jump back out and let the rest of us finish it off quickly. Everyone is happy.
The claim that this would lead to no new hunters is nonsense. There are enough people who want to be 7334 and stomp Cosmics just for the fun of it, that we would continually have new hunters join the ranks. So that is a non-issue.
It would mean that theme-builders, PvPers and RPers would not need to tweak their builds to maximum DPS output, they could continue to do creative and interesting builds. And it would mean that hardcore folks would not have to suffer through 2 hours of fails to get our rewards. It really is a win for everyone.
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this change made sure that I will never get the 10-kill perks for any future character
DARN i wanted the auras for certain characters
POWERFRAME REVAMPS, NEW POWERS and BUG FIXES > Recycled Content and Events and even costumes at this point Introvert guy who use CO to make his characters playable and get experimental with Viable FF Theme builds! Running out of Unique FF builds due to the lack of updates and synergies! Playing since 1 February 2011 128 + Characters (21 ATs, 107 FFs) ALTitis for Life!
Theme builders, PvPers, and RPers can still be useful in cosmics. I'm all 3 of those and I do fine. As long as you can tank, heal, cc, or do enough damage for dps checks, there is nothing wrong with having a weird build.
It would mean that theme-builders, PvPers and RPers would not need to tweak their builds to maximum DPS output, they could continue to do creative and interesting builds. And it would mean that hardcore folks would not have to suffer through 2 hours of fails to get our rewards.
This is already the case. Not sure how you people get any idea otherwise in your heads.
It would mean that theme-builders, PvPers and RPers would not need to tweak their builds to maximum DPS output, they could continue to do creative and interesting builds. And it would mean that hardcore folks would not have to suffer through 2 hours of fails to get our rewards.
This is already the case. Not sure how you people get any idea otherwise in your heads.
Oh, I dunno, maybe it's the 3 hour dino runs.
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Let's be honest here: if you organize a run, you're not going to be told to sit out. Sitting out is for people who want to attach themselves to a run someone else organized -- and while those people might be nice enough to help you get what you want, they're under no obligation to do so.
Then the solution is not to announce that Eido is up in the Cosmic HQ chat channel. At all. A solution on Cryptic's part is not to include Eidon as a cosmic daily at all since Eido is currently the only fight that has the prerequisite of the OM's being brought down first before he can be accessed. Another solution on their part would be to introduce a gear/build rating system a la Wow Raids to ensure people qualify to hit the 100k score mark before they're even allowed into the fights.
If someone feels obligated to announce it in the channel then it's an open invitation for anyone and everyone to jump right in, even if they haven't been involved in taking down the OMs.
I'm not saying this to take any form of goodwill from any vets announcing it to promote community participation, but if a public invitation is announced to get anyone and everyone joining in just at Eidon itself, then they'd obviously want to be engaged in the fight at all times and wouldn't take any demands of "sit out" thrown at them lightly without causing a dramatic crapfest in zone chat, nor would I expect them to automatically oblige just because they're told to.
Then the solution is not to announce that Eido is up in the Cosmic HQ chat channel.
Not sure what this is a reaction to. The issue is telling people to stay out of the OMs.
If we're talking specifically about OMs then what I've said pretty much applies to them as well, which is simply just not announce that OMs are being done at the moment in Cosmic HQ, restrict LFM roles announcements to private channels or tells. If you really want people to stay out of OMs and don't want to have to deal with telling people to sit out, then simply keep it discreet.
I mean, if certain groups of players doing the OMs want to be selective about who they want to group up with to ensure a fluid process and the best chances of success then why announce LFMs in public chat anyway? Also considering that there is no gear-gating system at the moment and that the WZ is a public zone.
Then the solution is not to announce that Eido is up in the Cosmic HQ chat channel.
Not sure what this is a reaction to. The issue is telling people to stay out of the OMs.
If we're talking specifically about OMs then what I've said pretty much applies to them as well, which is simply just not announce that OMs are being done at the moment in Cosmic HQ, restrict LFM roles announcements to private channels or tells. If you really want people to stay out of OMs and don't want to have to deal with telling people to sit out, then simply keep it discreet.
I mean, if certain groups of players doing the OMs want to be selective about who they want to group up with to ensure a fluid process and the best chances of success then why announce LFMs in public chat anyway? Also considering that there is no gear-gating system at the moment and that the WZ is a public zone.
Then the solution is not to announce that Eido is up in the Cosmic HQ chat channel.
Not sure what this is a reaction to. The issue is telling people to stay out of the OMs.
If we're talking specifically about OMs then what I've said pretty much applies to them as well, which is simply just not announce that OMs are being done at the moment in Cosmic HQ, restrict LFM roles announcements to private channels or tells. If you really want people to stay out of OMs and don't want to have to deal with telling people to sit out, then simply keep it discreet.
I mean, if certain groups of players doing the OMs want to be selective about who they want to group up with to ensure a fluid process and the best chances of success then why announce LFMs in public chat anyway? Also considering that there is no gear-gating system at the moment and that the WZ is a public zone.
This is exactly how it has been happening for a while. The difference, there are a group of people who put together their own runs and then there is a much larger group of people that sit around and whine about never having OM runs. The OMs, and even Eido, are not like the regular Cosmics which spawn every 4 hours, the OMs and Eido spawn ever 10 minutes. This means that pretty much ANY time someone wants to do an OM/Eido run, they can just organize it themselves. There is no reason to sit around whining that nobody ever invites you on an OM run. If you want to do an OM run, there is about a 99% chance that they are up and ready to be beat on.
Don't want to invite every yahoo to the party? Great, just start PMing the people on your friends list. You only need like 8 people (or less) to farm some OMs, surely you can get together that many people. Gather up and roll on out!
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The basic problem with the private run as a solution is that it's not solving the problem I want to solve.
I would like to be able to invite people who are not in some private circle of people to join in on open missions (or whatever). The problem is that I want to invite, say, 3 people, because I think I can handle that number of novices, and not invite 10 people, because I can't handle the larger number. The only real way of doing that is for people to respect "sorry, we're full now, please do something other than coming here".
You're blaming RPers and theme builders for that? I think you're way off the mark there.
Well, there's the morons, too, of course, but my point stays the same. Having the people not contributing to winning move off after they got their 100,000 would solve a lot of problems.
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You're blaming RPers and theme builders for that? I think you're way off the mark there.
Well, there's the morons, too, of course, but my point stays the same. Having the people not contributing to winning move off after they got their 100,000 would solve a lot of problems.
So you are saying that RPers and theme builders can't contribute to winning? I know for a fact that they can. Well, unless their theme is something like "normal human with no powers or weapons" but a character like that probably wouldn't be fighting cosmics anyway.
Well, there's the morons, too, of course, but my point stays the same. Having the people not contributing to winning move off after they got their 100,000 would solve a lot of problems.
My personal preference would be that people only count towards difficulty if their score is high enough to get a reward; then just adjust the way scoring works so the people not contributing towards winning don't get a reward. This would require changes to the way cc and tanking credit work, though, and possibly even healing credit.
There's an idea, having the system more dynamically evaluate people during the fight rather than just at the end. Then you could throw in score deductions for things like hitting a CC'd heart, or a CC'd dog... maybe even make it so that after a certain amount of those particular deductions you get teleported out of the zone and back to m-city... or have a banish-like effect cast on you that prevents you from interacting with any of the entities in the fight . I like the idea that people who are just generating slack won't upscale the boss, and that people who are either trolling or screwing up so much that it might as well be trolling are gotten rid of entirely. The idea that these folks would then not get a reward would mean that the system is actually delivering a "contribution threshold". Would really motivate people to either start asking questions and paying attention, or if they're not willing to do that then not show up entirely.
Let's make a bad extrapolation into a fast food chain. You have 20 customers on a tight schedule waiting for their hamburger, but the employee you currently have working the grill is slow af. You, as a leader, with 20 people expecting you to fulfill their demands will a) tell the current employee working the grill to switch places with someone faster or b) do nothing because you might hurt his feelings? If you choose b, then I'm afraid you are not cut out to be a leader, because you are putting the feelings of the one over the needs of the many. In warzone you have 20+ players with limited playtime wanting to have a succesful run and not spend 1 hour bashing their heads against a wall. Being a leader is hard and sometimes you have to make a hard choice. What the leader of the run did was the right choice in this case.
There wasn't anyone else there. Not in numbers great enough to matter. I think the grand total was 13 over the two runs, and one of the "extra" bodies was a tank that was only there for one run.
I can fire that slow guy on the grill but if there is no one there to take their place then what have I solved? What do I accomplish by threatening someone with an action that makes zero sense to take?
Never mind that the person organizing the run doesn't have absolute power. The person organizing the run can not "fire" anyone. If I wanted someone else on the grill and had someone ready to step in then asking if they would mind switching out is my best recourse.
I know that I have some bad days, and I know that I have some toons not as good as others, but if I think I am dragging a group down I will usually excuse myself. I don't need some wannabe dictator telling me that I "have to" leave an open game area. Anyone telling me that is not helping improve the odds that I will leave.
And now?
All I have seen this weekend is "Eidolon is up". No one is even announcing OMs on the channel because they don't want to deal with the random people. Even while other cosmics were happening. Whatever folks thought that they would spend their time trying to organize others were soon dissuaded of that notion it seems.
It was announced last night and someone asked if they meant the OMs or Eidolon himself. That is not a person that sounds like they care about the OMs. They just want the main event and nothing else is more important than whatever else they have going on, even if it may be standing around Rencen waiting for a queue to pop.
But yeah, I'll see what I can do about getting people into the Q to run OMs. I expect most folks will be waiting for someone else to do the work.
Not the "work" of organizing. The work of defeating the OMs so that they can try to join for the Eidolon.
I thought that more people would care about helping with the OMs than appear to do so.
I said at the start that I felt this would move towards the same few people doing the OMs because they wouldn't want to deal with any setbacks, and that is what I have seen over the weekend. Only instead of people being told to wait at the base while the same few people do the OMs, the people doing the OMs aren't even telling anyone else it is happening so all of the "waiting" is done in Rencen or alerts or wherever.
Never mind that the person organizing the run doesn't have absolute power. The person organizing the run can not "fire" anyone.
The person organizing the run has the option of "this isn't worth the aggravation, I'm leaving". If you want people to organize runs, you have to make sure that doing so is actually enjoyable.
Whatever folks thought that they would spend their time trying to organize others were soon dissuaded of that notion it seems.
I've tried it. It's rather annoyingly time consuming, and it winds up with people leaving when they realize they aren't going to unlock the Eidelon because they aren't beating the OMs fast enough (or at all).
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If you're frustrated with how a run is being led then I'd highly suggest organizing your own so that you don't have to put up with things you consider bs.
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or you cry doom, run away, and come back when things are going smoothly.
You would have to ask that specific person that. Just keep in mind that if that's a vet with access to the vet community then they had a choice - go run stuff with the vets and just scoop up big handfuls of rewards easy, or spend their time organizing newbies and quite possibly not getting very much out of it other than teaching some new people how to do stuff. So yeah, maybe they weren't super gentle about it, but yeah they were helping to build the community up with their actions.
See I don't know who it was so I don't even know if it was a vet, or if they were a newbie themselves. A good general rule though is whoever is willing to be the organizer gets to call the shots. If you don't like it, leave their run and start your own later, like Vixy said.
Just remember, the vets always do this "teaching newbie" stuff at their own expense with the hope of a future return - if the vet doing the runs on the day you talk about is one of the ones I think it was then I'm pretty impressed because they're the type who think there is no possibility of future return. Honestly the best thing you can do in that case is be thick skinned and show them that they're wrong and that you are good enough to be there.
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If 20-30 people try to do the OMs, the failure rate is at least 80 percent, and even in the 20 percent of times that succeed, it takes 3-5x longer. This wastes everyone's time, even those who are waiting. As I started out in this thread, but doing it with the elite death-squad, this frees the other players up to do more productive things, like run alerts or farm stuff for costume unlocks or do OV dailies. Then, once Eddy is open, they just come and finish that out, get their GCR and everyone wins.
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Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
They're available every 10 minutes. And it only takes a team of 5 to do it....same makeup as TA. The "vets" are only that because they ran the OMs when they did not know what to do. When they did not expect success.....more than that actually....they ran the OMs when they *expected* failure.
So do the same thing. Stop waiting for other people to do stuff for you. Nobody is obligated to be inclusive and nobody is obligated to provide explanations.
Personally I do practice runs, write guides, provide build advice, and give away gear for very selfish reasons. I do it because I expect that more people will be available to play the content I like to play. I want more "elites" "vets"...etc...who, by the way, do these runs with garbage gear + unoptimized wacky builds + make lots of mistakes.
Literally the only thing that makes them "elite" is their willingness to try stuff while expecting it to fail. This gives them experience with challenging content that others lack.
If you're reading this thread, at least do this much:
This week, *try* to get a team of five to come out and attempt an OM once. Just ask in Cosmic HQ. Or show up when the call goes out. That's it...don't need to succeed, be "good", etc.....just need to try.
If you do this, quote this post and say "I did it" in this thread and I will help in any way I can (I can help a lot) and include you in any run that I organize (I run them a lot).
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Still, it frequently doesn't work that way. If more than 20 folks are there, it is just easier to have a bunch sit out and wait.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
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And again, what has been said countless times in this thread. You don't like the way someone runs the show, then don't show up. You start your own runs. After they do theirs or parallel to it, it doesn't matter. But you take actions into your hands, cause again, what sort of entitlement do you possess that not only do you want vets to organize learning/succesful runs for you, but also in a way that satisfies your standards? Wanna know what the result of your behavior will have? The vets will get tired and organize private runs, or leave. This has been discussed before in this topic: http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/championsonline#/discussion/1205756/evaporative-cooling-of-cosmics/p1
(which incidentally is why I no longer organize runs, nor go out of my way to cover the essential roles such as tanking or CCing)
If said "leader" was being irrational at wanting 2 teams of 5 people to do the OMs and wouldn't listen to you pointing out how irrational he was, then you organize your own raid with what you think would be optimal and include/exclude as many players as you want. Let's make a bad extrapolation into a fast food chain. You have 20 customers on a tight schedule waiting for their hamburger, but the employee you currently have working the grill is slow af. You, as a leader, with 20 people expecting you to fulfill their demands will a) tell the current employee working the grill to switch places with someone faster or b) do nothing because you might hurt his feelings? If you choose b, then I'm afraid you are not cut out to be a leader, because you are putting the feelings of the one over the needs of the many. In warzone you have 20+ players with limited playtime wanting to have a succesful run and not spend 1 hour bashing their heads against a wall. Being a leader is hard and sometimes you have to make a hard choice. What the leader of the run did was the right choice in this case. Hey, I will not tolerate this diss to Captain Casual >:( To be more precise:
- Portal Guardian only scales within the area of the team up
- Oubliette scales further than the teamup option, until you are no longer affected by the Gravity Debuff
- Slug scales further than the Team Up cube: south all the way to the arch, and all around the 6 pillars, aka. the quest zone. So in the case of Slug, he gets buffed by people doing quests in that area.
5 people are enough to take down any of the OMs. By practicing with 5, it gives more flexibility. That means that the OMs can be unlocked with any number from 15 to 30 people, or even as low as 5, if they are fast. Just gives everyone more options.
Practicing with 5 per OM is definitely not irrational.
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What I was pointing out is that if mithros thought this was irrational, then he can start his own rational raids instead of 1) disrupting the current raid, and 2) coming to the forums to do...whatever the hell his original post intended to do
Personally I'm not comfortable with the idea of people accepting the idea that they're "dead weight" and then doing what you suggest, because that means that they have accepted a process that will never see them improving.
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I so often see vets organizing, putting out the call in the public Cosmic HQ channel, being patient. I've done it a bit myself, but after a day of
herding catsteaching high school students, I don't usually have the energy for it.Anyway, how about a mission with some rewards for beating a Nightmare Colossus? Would give people something to do while waiting, and could give folks some teamup practice in QWZ, too, with lower stakes.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
This way, it opens up more possibilities like a) first team to beat an OM goes to the 3rd one, and the 2nd team to beat OM retreats back to help defend Until or b) 1 death squad team does all the OMs, while the players that are not familiar with the OMs defend Until Base.
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They will get to the base and wait because running alerts or knocking out that nemesis mission or whatever else they could be doing now might very well mean that they can not enter the zone later.
And some people don't do so good with the waiting thing.
So, remove the perk requirement or things continue to be borked at best.
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Honestly, I really couldn't give a flip if the power-challenged get credit, as long as they do not keep me from doing so. And I mean that in the good way. This pretty much solves every single problem. In this way, the casuals, the RPers, the newbies, the theme builders and other non-hardcore players can get credit without having to go through the mayhem for hours on end. They could jump in, do their 100,000, then jump back out and let the rest of us finish it off quickly. Everyone is happy.
The claim that this would lead to no new hunters is nonsense. There are enough people who want to be 7334 and stomp Cosmics just for the fun of it, that we would continually have new hunters join the ranks. So that is a non-issue.
It would mean that theme-builders, PvPers and RPers would not need to tweak their builds to maximum DPS output, they could continue to do creative and interesting builds. And it would mean that hardcore folks would not have to suffer through 2 hours of fails to get our rewards. It really is a win for everyone.
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DARN i wanted the auras for certain characters
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If someone feels obligated to announce it in the channel then it's an open invitation for anyone and everyone to jump right in, even if they haven't been involved in taking down the OMs.
I'm not saying this to take any form of goodwill from any vets announcing it to promote community participation, but if a public invitation is announced to get anyone and everyone joining in just at Eidon itself, then they'd obviously want to be engaged in the fight at all times and wouldn't take any demands of "sit out" thrown at them lightly without causing a dramatic crapfest in zone chat, nor would I expect them to automatically oblige just because they're told to.
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I mean, if certain groups of players doing the OMs want to be selective about who they want to group up with to ensure a fluid process and the best chances of success then why announce LFMs in public chat anyway? Also considering that there is no gear-gating system at the moment and that the WZ is a public zone.
Don't want to invite every yahoo to the party? Great, just start PMing the people on your friends list. You only need like 8 people (or less) to farm some OMs, surely you can get together that many people. Gather up and roll on out!
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I would like to be able to invite people who are not in some private circle of people to join in on open missions (or whatever). The problem is that I want to invite, say, 3 people, because I think I can handle that number of novices, and not invite 10 people, because I can't handle the larger number. The only real way of doing that is for people to respect "sorry, we're full now, please do something other than coming here".
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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My super cool CC build and how to use it.
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I think the grand total was 13 over the two runs, and one of the "extra" bodies was a tank that was only there for one run.
I can fire that slow guy on the grill but if there is no one there to take their place then what have I solved?
What do I accomplish by threatening someone with an action that makes zero sense to take?
Never mind that the person organizing the run doesn't have absolute power.
The person organizing the run can not "fire" anyone.
If I wanted someone else on the grill and had someone ready to step in then asking if they would mind switching out is my best recourse.
I know that I have some bad days, and I know that I have some toons not as good as others, but if I think I am dragging a group down I will usually excuse myself.
I don't need some wannabe dictator telling me that I "have to" leave an open game area. Anyone telling me that is not helping improve the odds that I will leave.
And now?
All I have seen this weekend is "Eidolon is up". No one is even announcing OMs on the channel because they don't want to deal with the random people. Even while other cosmics were happening.
Whatever folks thought that they would spend their time trying to organize others were soon dissuaded of that notion it seems.
It was announced last night and someone asked if they meant the OMs or Eidolon himself. That is not a person that sounds like they care about the OMs. They just want the main event and nothing else is more important than whatever else they have going on, even if it may be standing around Rencen waiting for a queue to pop.
But yeah, I'll see what I can do about getting people into the Q to run OMs.
I expect most folks will be waiting for someone else to do the work.
Not the "work" of organizing. The work of defeating the OMs so that they can try to join for the Eidolon.
I thought that more people would care about helping with the OMs than appear to do so.
I said at the start that I felt this would move towards the same few people doing the OMs because they wouldn't want to deal with any setbacks, and that is what I have seen over the weekend.
Only instead of people being told to wait at the base while the same few people do the OMs, the people doing the OMs aren't even telling anyone else it is happening so all of the "waiting" is done in Rencen or alerts or wherever.
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