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Other Things To Do While Waiting Out OMs
pwestolemyname
Posts: 978 Arc User
Due to the new OM features, every knows that having more than 10 per OM is a really, really bad idea. This means, it is nearly impossible to do the 3 OMs to open Eido with team numbers between 11 and 23. In some very rare cases, it might be possible to do it with some number between 15 and 23, but only if you have a very high percentage of top-tier players that can do an Om with very few combatants (I have been on a team that did Slug with 5, so it is possible).
But, to be realistic, there are two effective ways to complete the OMs and open Eido.
1) Have a small group (6-10) of powerful players run the three OMs one after another.
2) Have three groups of 8-10 each do all 3 simultaneously. For this, you need 6 tanks and at least 3 healers. Then, once Eido is open, you end up with too many tanks and possibly too many healers.
After significant testing, it has been determined that the first method is much more likely to succeed. I've been on any number of runs like the second method because one or more of the groups failed. Whereas about 90 percent of the first method succeeds, and only fails if unscheduled people show up.
One of the main issues with the second method is that, when one group finishes quickly, they tend to go try to "help" one of the slower groups. This, of course, results in that OM ramping way up, well above whatever help any of the individuals brings. This inevitably leads to screaming and failure.
One of the main benefits to the former method is that it frees everyone else up to do whatever. My recommendation is to do Alerts or QWZ Dailies or OV Dailies or UNITY. Or just hang around in Caprice for a bit. The cool thing is, if there are several people waiting around in QWZ for Eido, it will be a good time to team up and do the QWZ dailies! However, If you do decide to do that, please remember to stay away from the OM areas, so as not to slow the progress. Heck, you could even level up a new character.
Then, once Eido is opened up, you can come and just finish that off and get your GCR. Works out great for everyone.
But, to be realistic, there are two effective ways to complete the OMs and open Eido.
1) Have a small group (6-10) of powerful players run the three OMs one after another.
2) Have three groups of 8-10 each do all 3 simultaneously. For this, you need 6 tanks and at least 3 healers. Then, once Eido is open, you end up with too many tanks and possibly too many healers.
After significant testing, it has been determined that the first method is much more likely to succeed. I've been on any number of runs like the second method because one or more of the groups failed. Whereas about 90 percent of the first method succeeds, and only fails if unscheduled people show up.
One of the main issues with the second method is that, when one group finishes quickly, they tend to go try to "help" one of the slower groups. This, of course, results in that OM ramping way up, well above whatever help any of the individuals brings. This inevitably leads to screaming and failure.
One of the main benefits to the former method is that it frees everyone else up to do whatever. My recommendation is to do Alerts or QWZ Dailies or OV Dailies or UNITY. Or just hang around in Caprice for a bit. The cool thing is, if there are several people waiting around in QWZ for Eido, it will be a good time to team up and do the QWZ dailies! However, If you do decide to do that, please remember to stay away from the OM areas, so as not to slow the progress. Heck, you could even level up a new character.
Then, once Eido is opened up, you can come and just finish that off and get your GCR. Works out great for everyone.
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Or, maybe the devs can put some more thought into this so that Option 1 (elite death squad) isn't the only relatively manageable way to unlock Edio?
No, seriously, this is something to take notes of. One of the reason why the second method doesn't happen very frequently (aside from the fact that coordinating is a ****) is because 6 tanks and 3 healers are needed, and once the fight with Eido is unlocked, only 1-3 tanks are needed. So the extra tanks have to either switch to another toon quickly enough so as not to get locked out from the zone, or join the fight knowing that they won't be contributing much potentially.
Suggestion: Well, it's a bit late now because the fight was already designed around a core mechanic that would be hard to rework now, but Eidolon could summon a Shadow or sth around a certain point in the battle that would require some extra tanks to take apart from the group so that it doesn't gib everyone (Kinda like Teleiosaurus Hatchling). This way, both the OMs and the Eido fight require more or less the same number of roles and are more seamlessly integrated with each other.
Of course, the way the fight is designed to flow currently, this would bring trouble with orbs spawning on a faraway offtank.
Now if only we could have the orbs spawning on fixed locations independent of people mmmmm....
I mean, the point of the change was to force players to simultaneously attack all 3 OMs (that was the intent all along). Well, it's been determined that that option is less viable than the elite death squad option, which takes down the 3 OMs one after the other, not simultaneously. Hmm, so we are back to doing them non-simultaneously, but the only difference is that it is the best players doing it, rather than including the not-quite-so-best players. In effect, the change did nothing except reduce the number of players who can meaningfully contribute to Phase 1 (OMs).
Gotta say that the change really did not accomplish what the devs wanted, so why not roll it back rather than set up card tables at the base?
What is currently happening is that "the best players" as you put it are the ones that are doing the OMs while "the not-quite-so-best" players much rather wait to jump in on a free ride when they see "the best players" doing OMs, instead of, for example right now that none of said "best players" are online, attempting to form a raid and do the OMs by themselves.
Sure the first times you will fail a lot. But so did "the best players", that's how they became "the best", by repetitiveness and trial and error.
It's not currently a thing that "the best players" and the "not quite so best players" are both doing the OMs, but only the runs by "the best players" succeed. The "not quite so best players" are not attempting at all. That's where the problem lays.
Personally I do agree that the current way to buff it was bad, rushed and lazy. I would have much rather have the 2 other bosses start gaining scaling buffs after the first and 2nd OM are completed, like the FnI bosses do (like a stack per minute, and a 2nd stack per minute for the 3rd OM) so that it would be doable by a solo raid of 20 people but incredibly way more harder and challenging than if you had splitted; or have the other OMs gain reinforcement adds; or gain new mechanics (for example kill PG first, Oub and Slug now also have the Enervating Crystal mechanic, kill Slug next, now Oub has Ennervating Crystal and Confuse mechanic on top of all her other attacks); or each OM gives the other 2 a specific buff upon defeat (Kill Slug first the other 2 gain a huge buff to power, Kill Oub first the other 2 gain a huge buff to Hp, kill PG first the other 2 gain a huge buff to damage resistance); or be even lazier and reduce the time to complete each OM to 5 minutes instead of 10 while keeping the old stats.
But if the current buff is the way the devs are gonna roll, then yeah, they need to buff it even more.
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
- Open missions were designed with the intent you'd bring a tank, a mezzer/offtank (for the ads), a healer and the rest dps/whatevs. Those respawning ads can be mezzed, and I haven't really seen people taking advantage of that.
- Eidolon was intended to have 3~4 tanks (3 to split attacks, 1 as backup), 2~3 mezzers, 2~3 healers, and the rest dps/whatevs. Meaning that you shouldn't have to switch characters if you're tackling the OMs. This is currently not how teams are set up, and I do have some changes in the works for Eidolon, but they may take a little while longer due to the current pts updates being worked on and as I wait to get some tech ported into the game that will make certain aspects of his phases easier to make work on my end.
- Eidolon will likely see some adjustments to rewards when we're able to roll out some changes to justify the extra amount of work it takes to get to him and defeat him.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
> What is currently happening is that "the best players" as you put it are the ones that are doing the OMs while "the not-quite-so-best" players much rather wait to jump in on a free ride when they see "the best players" doing OMs, instead of, for example right now that none of said "best players" are online, attempting to form a raid and do the OMs by themselves.
FWIW, yes well your are offline and not there players do and have attempted OM. Some organized, some zergy. Fairly sure they've not even intended to unlocked Eldy yet, mostly playing OM.
As for waiting for the free ride, 'best players' hardly have their hands clean of poor behavior with respect to their own made up cosmic rule. But that's another fight for another thread. Most people just want to play the dumb game, that's OM an Eldy.
> @kaizerin said:
> * Eidolon will likely see some adjustments to rewards when we're able to roll out some changes to justify the extra amount of work it takes to get to him and defeat him.
*Big Stop Sign* Wrong direction IMO, problem isn't Eldy (well there's problems there too), problem is OM (changes, as well as players attitudes). Like @pantagruel01 pointed out the 'watevs', scaling and players-being-jerks (to put it nicely) really don't mix.
Better rewards only make the current situation worse with the elitism to unlock Eld.
Not sure how fine the scaling can be but I'll propose a SS like DR curve for player size, rather than linear.
0-5: No scaling same as 10 man, or even reverse penalty if this is truly a 10 man job (if we can't play you can't either rule?)
6-10: Neutral, no per person change
10-15: Very light scaling, make room for whatevs, new people, oddballs, and tourists
15-20: About Current scaling (or a bit less)
20-30: The no you can't do them 1 by 1 scaling to unlock, but OM is playable.
Prevents 30 man rush, allows for desired 3 way split, allows for leeway with 15 man (1 then split to 2), puts needed wiggle room in game design (too much math, not enough flexibility-playability), tempers death squad.
I would say that getting all those roles in place is relatively rare and takes quite a bit of waiting and cat herding on the organizational side. So it doesn't happen much. If the design intends for that level of organization and wait time then ok. Just so you know..that's what's happening.
It'd be great if there was some way to help on the organizing side. Could the private queue system from rampages be used for each OM?
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Spectre beats Eido in an SG run: VIDEO HERE
- Most Mezzes are AoE, max target of 5, there are 6 adds per OM
- If the intention is to mezz targets one by one with single target mezzes, you are asking for a very very veeeeeeeeeeery specific Tank CCer build that would only be useful for this particular situation.
I mean, there is a very valid reason as to why the curve gets so steep with players past 10, and it's cause of the number of debuffs the boss will get. A theoretical team of 15 people all with DPS around the 2.5k mark could burn through all OMs, but you will never find such homogenous group, not even within "Elite" players.
3) One group starts at slug, one group starts at oub, whoever finishes first does pb
I dunno, it's almost like you just gotta work with what you have and not limit yourself to one way of doing things O3o
Last boss in TA has 6 adds and I've managed to have all of them mezzed at once without even having a single target CC. This other guy I knew managed to keep them all CC'd while he was the healer with no off tank. So, it's likely quite possible.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
> Not sure how fine the scaling can be but I'll propose a SS like DR curve for player size, rather than linear.
>
> OMs already scale that way. 0-10th player add 100-200k each, 11th~12th player add 400k, 13+ player add 500k each, haven't checked how much it scales for bigger teams.
>
> I mean, there is a very valid reason as to why the curve gets so steep with players past 10, and it's cause of the number of debuffs the boss will get. A theoretical team of 15 people all with DPS around the 2.5k mark could burn through all OMs, but you will never find such homogenous group, not even within "Elite" players.
So partially miss informed / can't math (hard to do live with people running in/out). But what I was typing is essentially shifted 1 easier than scaling you provided.
0-10: 0 [acts as 10 man] / 11-13 200k / 14-16 400k / 17+ OMG
A small issue with duffs tipping at 14 vs 10, (I'm balancing to a different player-base than devs are sadly) but the +1 GCR for Eldy isn't worth the stupidity-drama the OM scaling/players created. Either way a pointless attempt for less drama and spazzing out, and too optimistic to co-ordinate into 2 separate groups.
Thinking late last night the more likely successful option to be able to actually play the zone a total nuke:
Eldy - reduced to 4 hour zone cosmic boss. We can put a RNG QWZ boss in front of him if he needs a timer, but then fail cool down is reduced. Timer accounts for the extra +1 GCR
OM - 10 to 20 man Rampage style OM. Daily gives 1GCR or if fancy some new QWZ token for use to buy BOE QWZ gear for your alts or sell to players to not be naked at cosmics. (Sadly won't happen cause they'll loose merc gear money). Large # QWZ tokens = 1 rampage token? Plus random drops + Q at OM.
Way back when we were splitting up with one group doing PG, another doing Slug, then joining up at Oubliette.
This is basically a variation of that with the difference being that they never meet at the third OM. The first one done just does the third OM while the others wait.
But I have not taken part in any Eidolon attempt, never mind takedown, since the changes.
Only been online while one or two were attempted.
It really seems to have dried up from where it was before I took my month+ hiatus.
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All that said, it still seems like it is pushing people towards "You guys do nothing and do not unlock the perks for defeating PG, Slug, or Oubliette. Leave that to these specific people/characters that have defeated them many times in the past because we trust them and do not have the patience for anyone else's failures".
Because there are some people that I just can not see sitting around in the Q Warzone for long if those other players struggle with the OMs.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
For OMs, the prime group is 1 main tank, 1 offtank, 1 healer and 2+ DPS.
The vast majority of mezzers cannot handle adds because 1) there's too many, and 2) they spawn too far apart and 3) If one guy gets loose from the mezz, he can squash the mezzer in one hit. The the real problem 4) is that a mezzer cannot "pull" mobs. Look at PG. Mobs spawn very far apart and then immediately head towards PG or the closes DPS/Healer. Mezzing stops them where they stand. That would mean mobs standing all over the place. And if any were ever accidentally hit, they would wake up. Without aggro control, a mezzer cannot place the mobs where necessary. Of course, if we had any useful powers like "Wormhole" this might be a problem we could manage, but we don't. Conversely, an off-tank can tag them with aggro, turtle up and pull them off to the side where they aren't in the way. That latter tactic is so far much better than the former that it is just preposterous to even suggest it.
For Eddy, the above suggested team make-up is just literally insane. From lots of experience, you need 1 or 2 tanks, *maybe* if they suck. But, then again, if you have sucky tanks, it doesn't really matter how many you have, you're just gonna wipe eventually, anyway, or they'll lose aggro.
What in Odin's name would you do with 3 mezzers? Maaaaaaaybe 2, but really only 1. Their only real use is they mezz the shadow crystals to slow down the healing. The rest of the time, they basically stand around not contributing much. Whee. The Shadow Crystals can easily be mezzed by 1 person. 2-3 healzors, yeah, that's actually about right.
But NONE of that is the issue. I mean, if people need to swap toons to go from OMs to Eddy, it's not that much of a big deal. The real issue is coordination. It turns out to be nearly impossible to coordinate people from across the zone. For whatever reason, only a minuscule percent of the participants pay any attention to what is going on. This is, of course, because the rest of the game is a solo-lovers faceroll. It has become clear that there is no intent to fix that, so we end up with this situation.
Basically, without revamping the entire game to be a cooperative team-based system, nothing will fix the problem. Rolling it back to where it was more doable by everyone, that, at least, would allow everyone to participate. Maybe reduce the awards in that case. Otherwise, it is going to be much more efficient to let the elite death-squad clear out the OMs and then invite everyone to partake in Eddy (much to my chagrin).
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Used to be coach on the forums. Still @coach in game.
*Slow Claps sarcastically*
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
The Elite Death Squad model is not the only way to work this, but it seems the easiest to organize, and has a high success rate.
Basic behavioral economics would suggest that this strategy comes to dominate. The side effect is a pile of SCR for the death squad.
Some changes would be nice to shake things up a bit.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
It's spoken of earlier in this thread.
Basically a hand-picked team of 10 proven characters/players and that same small group goes out and beats all three OMs while the other 20 wait around and only join in for the actual Eidolon fight.
It's one of the general problems with encounters that scale with the group size: adding a person adds power to your group, but also increases the power needed. If the increase in power needed is greater than the power that person adds, that person is a liability and should be excluded if possible. If you're a novice and don't know the fight, or have a limited character list and your role is already filled, you're almost certainly a net liability -- but the only way to become not a novice is practice, ideally along with people who already know the fight and can show you what to do.
If the open mission scaling were less severe, there would be a lot more room to add people who are learning, but then you wind up with the roving death band of 30 people. You could cut down on that by, say, limiting how many people can get rewards, but the open mission scoring system is dubious enough that you'd almost certainly wind up excluding people who deserve credit (in particular, off-tank/CC tends to have low score relative to their value to the mission).
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
I take this quote from a review that I agree with.
"customisation is so linear; everyone is after the optimal dps:survivability ratio with 0 reliance on other players = autonomous gameplay... Players don't need each other anymore... which in my opinion is a bad thing."
And, of course, that's looking at things from the perspective that Eidolon kills are the only important part; if you have a character that needs SCR, or is trying to get the OM perks... well, that's pretty much not going to happen anymore. The OM changes are pretty solidly bad all around.
Conversely, vets could host some "grab a bunch of newbies and do a few rotations of OMs to get better at them" events since apparently vets are the only players with any motivation to actually do anything proactive u3u
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Hm. Ponder running open training; have a veteran or two and the rest public, with no expectation of unlocking Eidolon or even winning the OMs.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Before you would gather a team to farm OMs, stating beforehand that the objective was to farm OMs and only OMs, and you accidentally ended up unlocking Eido, and everyone would leave to bash their heads against Eido for 1 hour and fail, after which point interest in farming OMs would have died.
Right now there is absolutely nothing stopping people from announcing a group for OM farming in Cosmic Chat, since as the people above me have stated, you have 10 minutes as opposed to 4, and can even spare to bring an extra healer to be safer.
Hell, you don't even have to assemble a huge team. Yesterday just for shits and giggles we decided to tackle Slug with a team of 5 people: tank (Me), offtank, healer and 2 DPS. It took us around 6 mins but despite having run Slug a thousand times already, running it with such a little team allowed me to pay more attention (and actually be able to see due to not being covered in ten thousand skills FX) to Slug's attack pattern and find some neat tells to it's attacks (need to update guide with this).
Unlike Cosmics, the OMs are always up for practice runnings due to their short cooldowns.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It just isn't happening that way. Organizing a group takes a skill not all possess. Also, there is simply the convenience factor of logging in, poking around, and joining a run in progress.
It is possible that vets running this mission will tire of others hopping in and taking spaces, wrecking a run, or being the only ones to organize. If that happens, maybe the mission will change again in some way.
It is also possible that more folks could figure out the mission and organize runs themselves. That is what happened with Kiga, Telei, and Qwijy.
Guess we'll see.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
I'm actually wondering... if "the vets" just stopped announcing eido runs wholesale, would the rest of the population start doing their own runs?
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
They will be willing to work towards the goal and not worry so much about whether it happens now or not.
But a lot of people?
They want the payoff.
They may be willing to come along for this run and that run, but after a while the interest will drop.
That will vary from person to person, but everyone that has been involved in cosmic hunting for any time at all has seen the sort of thing that can happen.
=============
It's funny in a sense that success breeds impatience, but it is true.
It varies from person to person, but as people learn what is "supposed" to happen they get more and more frustrated when it doesn't.
So the OMs?
Some amount of vets might get out there and try to teach folks, and some may become "vets" themselves, but how long will they stick it out when things go poorly?
How many times will they tell people to block if they are rooted before Oubliette heals one time too many?
How many times will they tell people to take out the mind worms before deciding that they have died one time too many?
How many times will they accept that extra people came into the area raising the difficulty of the fight? And this could be anything from over-eager people wanting to learn the fights to people just passing through for their own reasons.
And with no chance at getting to the Eidolon himself (or no real chance of success if they do happen to unlock him)?
I think for many people the patience will run out sooner rather than later.
And I am not putting myself above anyone here.
I think I am reasonably patient in most regards, certainly involving the game.
I have no problem beating my head against some walls as long as I feel the attempts are being done in earnest.
But that Qwyjibo mess last night?
I was standing on a hillside, and had been for a while, when the call went out looking for Eidolon fighters last night and I was all too happy to leave.
I had zero reason to believe that there was any success to be had, I had "taught" all that I could teach but it seemed some people refused to learn, and was at a point where I felt that people just had to be trolling because there was no good explanation for the amount of stupid happening in that fight otherwise.
And there will no doubt be the same sort of thing happening in these training runs, where a few people can mess them up for everyone.
What may end up being trained is that the fights are too much trouble to bother with.
Personally I think your horror story of 'mass give up' is a bit melodramatic. I have my doubts that it would be quite as apocalyptic as that. After all, I'm sure there's at least 20 people out there who aren't classified as vets who just play this game to have fun, don't really take it that seriously, and are up to a challenge - and those people would find each other in the process ( and I think there's likely more than 20 ). The huffy pants would do what they usually do - run away and eventually return when things are smooth again, being of little consequence in the process.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Whoever you are, be that person one hundred percent. Don't compromise on your identity.
At the end of the day they are, I assume, trying to create content to both draw in and retain customers who put some money into the game. Is the Qzone helping to do that? If not, do they tweak it to make it in some way more desirable for more people to play there? I don't know. If, say, 20 people do Qzone regularly, is that enough to justify additional development there, or similar content elsewhere? These are just things I wonder about.
Advertising in zone, advertising in Cosmic HQ. Trying to put together teams for the OMs.
Hey, I had nothing better to do, so sure, I'll join in.
So the person that took lead decided that five was the number.
Even though the real buffing doesn't happen until after the 11th person appears, they wanted five at Oubliette and five at Slug, with whoever got finished first to go on to PG. Considering the poor turnout, deciding to go at five wasn't bad unto itself, but we'll get back to that in a bit.
So we eventually get the right mix. Two tanks, a healer, and two DPS at each location.
One of those players says "I just want Slug and Eidolon for the perks/unlocks, but I am not very good".
So what does this "leader", doing things "out of the kindness of their heart" say?
"Well, if you aren't good enough then you'll just have to leave the zone and make room for someone else" or something very close to that.
What the heck is that nonsense? How is that "building community"?
And then two people show up after the Oubliette fight started and the "leader" is telling them to go away. That they have to leave.
Now that only made seven and the fight is going on with the timer counting down, and I was laying in the dirt at that time. I figured "no harm, I'll leave, and there will still only be six of them", but even that wasn't good enough.
I'm all the way back at base, two other people were right there, but the "leader" is telling me to come back. What was wrong with one (or both) of those other DPSers?
By then round 1 had pretty much failed though, so I decided that for round 2 I would go to Slug.
You even showed up for that and tanked everything but we ended up running out of time.
Might have been nice to have had some extra DPS. You know? Person 6-10 that the "leader" was hell-bent on chasing away.
That whole thing yesterday reeked of "You noobs stay out. The leets will let you know when you are allowed to participate".
But with the sort of people skills (or lack thereof) demonstrated by the "leader", I do not know how many others would have been around to join in for the Eidolon.
But hey, maybe other folks from Cosmic_HQ would have come running at that point, right?
Shame there weren't more trying to help (and maybe helping try to moderate the "leader") with the OMs, though.
If a few extra bodies with name recognition, even if not one of the "leets" would have shown at Slug and Oubliette saying that 10 and under was fine, that they did not have to limit the fight to five, it might have helped a lot.