We're no more in the 90s when spending 3 months to farm gears was the norm.
Correct, we're in CO, where that's still not the norm. 3 months? lol. hyperbole has clearly run amok.
Indeed, as I never stated it was the norm in CO either, try to read the full explanation next time, rather than extrapolating words out of context. You're definitely running amok here.
(...) Your duty as a gamer begins and ends at "having fun" (...)
Where did you got your definition of a "gamer's duty"? And how your definition of a gamer's duty suddenly became the definition of every gamer's duty? Another hyperbole, apparently...
You wanna know what a game that's really in trouble looks like? Abandoned forums, abandoned servers.
Maybe we don't want this to happen? Many players are unhappy with this new pricings, some already left. Right, to quit is certainly the wisest choice to do for them, but is it for CO? That's why I believe that it is the player's duty to provide this kind of feedbacks and discussions.
Time will tell, but I'm not too sure the Lair will ever be for me. There's 'just get on the rollercoaster already' and there's 'practice makes perfect' but then there's also 'doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results is...' well, you know.
Yes, Spinny, my duty begins and ends at "having fun". And it would seem that in order to play this new content, I would need to grind myself up at least some Heroic gear - which would require me to run the same handful of missions on a single character (since Recognition can't be shared) until I'm ready to puke. Maybe to you that's "fun", I can't say, but it sure isn't for me.
Now, I recognize that it's too late for this particular lair, it is what it is, and I'm all for letting the tryhards have a place to have their version of "fun". I'm just raising my voice repeatedly in the hopes that, unlike past changes, this is not going to be the way of things going forward.
I Whether you agree or not, there is no point in replying to this post, i won't see the reply. I'm just going to modify the primary post and clear out of here - and out of anything PWE/Cryptic/CO related as fast as possible.
Papa Bless
I'll believe when you delete this account, as well as your game account.
Quite. You'll be back, emp - if you didn't like the game to start with, you wouldn't have been so peeved by this increase, you'd have just quit and we'd never have heard from you again. (Much like the way I myself left both WoW and SWTOR - no fuss, no dramatic "goodbye" posts online, just uninstalled and never looked back.)
Gear in SWTOR never seemed grindy to me, although I must admit I never got overly acquainted with the endgame stuff, was planning on using pvp vendor gear till I figured the system out since pvp there is actually decent and rewards commendations very quickly, with prices in the vendor shop being reasonable.
I never even got involved with the grind there - SWTOR drove me away with their lousy broken excuse for F2P. When even your ability to use the in-game mail system is limited by whether or not you've given them any money - gods below, they were starting to make the Hutt look like philanthropists!
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Indeed, as I never stated it was the norm in CO either, try to read the full explanation next time, rather than extrapolating words out of context. You're definitely running amok here.
Ah okay, so you're just randomly pointing out things that don't happen anymore and it's in no way connected to CO. Gotcha.
Where did you got your definition of a "gamer's duty"? And how your definition of a gamer's duty suddenly became the definition of every gamer's duty? Another hyperbole, apparently...
I got it from the great big book of common sense. What's your definition of a gamer's duty?
Maybe we don't want this to happen? Many players are unhappy with this new pricings, some already left. Right, to quit is certainly the wisest choice to do for them, but is it for CO? That's why I believe that it is the player's duty to provide this kind of feedbacks and discussions.
Oh i agree, feedback and discussions are very useful. Endless whining, accusations, demonization, and calls to get people fired on the other hand are garbage. I'd love to think that people are doing this "for the good of the game", but quite frankly it just comes off as people trying to use threats to get their in-game stuff faster.
You think the devs didn't know there would be complaints about this? Hell they probably had an office pool about how many people would threaten to quit and not follow through. They know by now that people complaining about a video game is nothing new, and is also not a sign that things are going in the wrong direction. You really want to convince them? You're going to have to try harder, not complain louder.
Ah okay, so you're just randomly pointing out things that don't happen anymore and it's in no way connected to CO. Gotcha.
Nope. If I was pointing something, then I was pointing at biffsmackwell's post. In that post, he believes that this change will affect the new players the least while I believe the opposite. Then I explained why and in context. Buf if you got it and it's in no way connected to CO then tell us since when we're no more gamers? Keep twisting words out of context and in a way that extrapolate the sentence outside of its meaning so we can all see the lack of validity of your great book of common sense. Also i've a bad news for you : since the last patch, you'll have to troll me 420% more to get your Award now.
Endless whining, accusations, demonization, and calls to get people fired on the other hand are garbage.
Stop doing it, then.
Or at least, stop misrepresenting what other people are saying. There's very little hyperbole in this conversation, most of it is just concern for the game and people's enjoyment of it. People are saying they'd prefer a different direction, that's all. If the Devs are being told to milk the game for all it's worth, that's not their fault, but robust feedback is a part of modern life, and we all have to deal with it in some form. (It could be worse. It could be Twitter.)
Fun story: in NWO, you're just *given* your level 70 starter endgame weapons for completing a quest (that you could complete pre-70 if you wanted to).
Starter endgame gear is just something you're given or get in a few days.
I'm not going to say NWO doesn't have problems. It does. But it also does give you your starter endgame weapons (emphasis starter) as a handout for completing a quest. (And its vastly faster to get to that quest and finish it than it is to level from 60 to 70, and the quests along the way give you quite reasonable gear for doing the easier level 70 content too). Oh, they also hand you an endgame chest armor piece for doing the starter quest to Sharandar (easiest epic zone), so that's a third starter endgame gear piece you are basically given on a silver platter shortly after you hit max level.
The problem with that is that the "starter" weapons, in itself, RNG the stat for you and you have to level up or pay to get the correct stat. Speaking of leveling up, the grind on leveling up the weapon was completely unnecessary, especially that grindy 10 level cap increase. Why adding more grind on top of grind? Sharandar, was for the most part, made for level 60 and they screw this up by bumping up to level 70. Sure you can go there during the mid 60s, but the last time I was there, getting 1 shot isn't fun at all. These aren't on a silver platter, they're on a rusted iron plate.
I rarely had to replay the grindy quests. You do each of the repeatables (actually, you don't even have to do all of them) once, advance to the next stage of the mission chain, do another batch of repeatables, and so on until you finish the zone. Occasionally you'll have to repeat some to catch your level up to the quest level, but by and large it's more of a quest progressions where you *can* go back and replay them. (I strongly recommend being part of a guild so you can get your guild dailies done while doing this too - one of them is worth a good chunk of xp). Now, I did do the last few levels during the double xp weekend we had recently, so it may be a little grindier normally, but certainly not that much.
(The 60-70 areas are like this: There are 4 zones with 3 areas in each zone, each of which starts with 'do 8 of these repeatable quests', then has a couple other quests before sending you to the next area, culminating in a boss fight at the end of the 3rd area.
The way they were made, it seem that Cryptic wanted the players to go to those area. Sure you can do the chain once but you're killing lots and lots of monsters on top of another lists of monsters to kill, all the while, being limited with how many quest you can take per hour. The guild part wasn't so much of a help for me and god forbid all those players that are playing alone, and I came across a lot of those players. For god sake, many players figure out that by not doing all the quest before level 60s, they can do those to get a large chuck of experience points from it. Cryptic caught wind of this and not only nerf those experience but increase the experience require for leveling up a +60 level character.
But you can also still productively do normal dungeons and skirmishes, and have Tyranny of Dragons campaign dailies in lower zones to get materials needed to progress the campaign. And i suppose PvP, for people who care about that sort of thing).
Dungeons doesn't give out a lot of exp and skirmishes? HA. Before that update that made Aberrant Assault's level req to level 70, you're stuck with Master of the Hunt and Dread Legion and do you know what happen to level 60 players there? They get oneshot to death by trash mobs. For those level 70s players? Good luck carrying up to 4 60s players in those Skrimishes. Cryptic did not even address this problem until mid fall and you're pretty much lock out of that AD daily because of this nonsense. Even after the Aberrant Assault update, it still left a bad aftertaste. PvP is P2W and more broken than any other mmo I seen in my lifetime.
Now, once you get to endgame, i really hate epic dungeons. With a passion. Especially pub queue. And starter endgame gear is woefully insufficient for them. *shrug*. NWO is built around a gear climb that actually matters, unlike CO. But that doesn't make Heroic in CO anything but starter endgame gear, and i'd guestimate its about as far below top tier gear (in tiers) as NWO's starter endgame gear. The difference is just starker in terms of balance points. But if CO did something similar, it would be like handing you a heroic gear piece for doing each of your (first) quest completion of Vikorin, Therakiel, and Bronze King - making you 'endgame ready' after having completed the major quest lines.
The path they're taking with the Heroic Armor seem like the start of the path they took with NWO. The system to get the Heroic Armor was already perfect and there no need for this update or the "handed on the silver plate" with Vikorin, Therakiel, and Bronze King. The way I see it, that whole trinket set you get from the Vibora Bay Apocalypse is already good enough start with.
Also, the easier endgame areas in NWO (sharandar, dread ring) are perfectly playable in the gear you got from the quests from 60 to 70 and the starter endgame weapons you get handed. Icewind Dale and Tyranny of Dragons are pretty rough, but you can gear climb from the areas you can play in. (And there are multiple tiers of endgame gear). And you can progress the Underdark campaign just by doing your dailies in Dread Ring, and can skip right to reasonably top tier gear pretty easily.
(You can pick up farees and demon ichor in the demonic heroic encounters, which you get a daily for in Dread Ring and Icewind Dale, which are the Underdark campaign currencies - enough that you can farm the top tier drow gear and progress the campaign without ever playing the campaign content. And you get elemental seals which let you buy 2nd tier Alliance gear. And the farm needed is arguably less than justice gear, too, especially since you want to do the dailies to progress the Dread Ring campaign anyway, even if you weren't farming gear currencies at the same time).
Or maybe, hear me out, or maybe they shouldn't have jack up the level in those area from level 60 to 70 or maybe, don't even increase the level cap and just build around with what the game has around. This is just an excuse just to play a content that will give you junk that you will throw out later because a junk level 80 blue armor still has better armor overall. Imagine how piss people were when they did those content before the level cap update.
My big complaint about NWO, besides epic dungeons, is that all the endgame gear is boringly similar. About half the stats never appear on any of it, and it emphasizes stats that not all builds/classes are going to particularly care for. (I'm playing a great weapon fighter, and gear seems to want to hand me boatloads of recovery, which affects cooldowns, despite gwf cooldowns not being terribly long and there being a bunch of other stats they'd much rather have. There's literally like 6 choices for gwf top tier endgame artifact weapons, and all of them have the exact same stats and only differ on set bonus - that's depressingly boring, especially when one of those stats barely helps them)
My complaint is that they increase the level cap, increase the level of all expansion from 60 to 70, make elemental area the only area for the players in the 60s do to, and screwing up the end gear at level 60 while adding many level 70 armor tier. The enchantment grind does not even comprehend how much more grind on top of grind on top of more grind. Oh and those alts? Yeah, this might be fine for one of your character but all your other alt characters are either left in the dust or you work more grinding hours to level them up. As chaelk mention, if you level up a wrong class, you just wasted your time because nobody would want that class in their epic dungeon.
Cryptic has done this to NWO and I do NOT want to see this happening in Champions Online, but I fear that history will repeat itself.
This decision doesn't really effect me much, I usually level a toon to 40 and then start on a new toon, but this update has really put a damper on my enthusiasm for the game. I might have never geared up another toon with heroic gear, but with this update that choice not to bother feels like it's been effectively taken away from me.
Now I don't mind grinding to get rare items, to get special unlocks, to get costume pieces, but the problem with these new prices is that they're turning farming what used to be basic items into grinding. As I've pointed out, a complete set of Heroic gear used to be about 5 to 6 hours over 6 days to get, now I doubt you could get a complete set with 18 hours over 9 days. I'll grind for new items, rare items, but when you turn something that was readily available and turn that into a grind, well, I start to lose interest.
It's possible to like CO but be unhappy with certain aspects of the game. Not everything is black and white.
I know, I'm in that boat. I see a lot of problems with CO. Unfortunately every time one of them gets fixed, the forums explode into a waterfall of salty tears from all the people who were enjoying the problems
It's possible to like CO but be unhappy with certain aspects of the game. Not everything is black and white.
I know, I'm in that boat. I see a lot of problems with CO. Unfortunately every time one of them gets fixed, the forums explode into a waterfall of salty tears from all the people who were enjoying the problems
What was so problematic about how the Heroic SCR costs were in the beginning that a drastic price increase was needed to even qualify it as a "fix"?
What was so problematic about how the Heroic SCR costs were in the beginning that a drastic price increase was needed to even qualify it as a "fix"?
It was too easy to pick up Heroics. 3-6 days to deck out a single Lv40 per Lv40 character you had available is incredibly fast. If you run alts like I do, you wind up building up like 5 sets of the stuff a day. Tell me, how is that NOT in need of a fix?
Believe me, I'm a little uncomfortable with the changes too. However, this change was absolutely needed. Heroics being so easy to get was a joke. It was dirt cheap. I gave sets away for an entire month and didn't break a sweat doing so, at least until the PC gave its last breath. As unhappy as I am that it's become harder for me to provide equipment period, something needed to happen. We can argue if it was too much or not all we like, but at the end of the day, what's done is done. Tweaks will happen here and there for sure, but only if we can justify that they're needed. A simple complaint or rant doesn't have much weight if there's no solid reasoning to why something should be adjusted.
I lost something that I enjoyed doing because of these changes, and you know what? I'm happy with it.
None of this however correlates to the rest of the Recognition shop, namely Travels and SCR Devices. I personally believe those are considerably overpriced.
It was too easy to pick up Heroics. 3-6 days to deck out a single Lv40 per Lv40 character you had available is incredibly fast. If you run alts like I do, you wind up building up like 5 sets of the stuff a day. Tell me, how is that NOT in need of a fix?
It wasn't in need of a fix because Heroics aren't even considered top-tier gear in the first place for a level 40; just entry-level.
EDIT: Not everyone is able to run a whole bunch of alts either to farm for the SCRs like you do without first buying that many extra slots, and buying extra slots to make alts for the sake of just farming for extra SCRs to unlock more Heroics more quickly hardly comes off as something to justify the need of a "fix".
Believe me, I'm a little uncomfortable with the changes too. However, this change was absolutely needed. Heroics being so easy to get was a joke. It was dirt cheap. I gave sets away for an entire month and didn't break a sweat doing so, at least until the PC gave its last breath. As unhappy as I am that it's become harder for me to provide equipment period, something needed to happen. We can argue if it was too much or not all we like, but at the end of the day, what's done is done. Tweaks will happen here and there for sure, but only if we can justify that they're needed. A simple complaint or rant doesn't have much weight if there's no solid reasoning to why something should be adjusted.
So what if you're able to give away extra heroic gear you don't need that you personally feel takes an "incredibly fast" time to get? It is no doubt a selfless act of generosity and kudos to whoever's getting them for free, but that's besides the point and doesn't justify why entry-level non top-tier level 40 gear suddenly needs an average of 3 weeks to get.
Complaints with solid reasonings already have been repeatedly made if you actually even bothered to read them.
It could be argued that when they first went live, they weren't just entry-level gear, since they were basically the stuff. But nowadays, yeah, there's better gear and this is close to bottom-rung.
Right, back in the day they were the top and I don't recall there having been a huge uproar about how quick it was to get them, because the grind was still significant.
Now that they're now much lower down the list, with better gear out there, suddenly they're too easy to get and too readily available that a fix was needed. That logic is absurd.
What was so problematic about how the Heroic SCR costs were in the beginning that a drastic price increase was needed to even qualify it as a "fix"?
It was too easy to pick up Heroics. 3-6 days to deck out a single Lv40 per Lv40 character you had available is incredibly fast. If you run alts like I do, you wind up building up like 5 sets of the stuff a day. Tell me, how is that NOT in need of a fix?
Believe me, I'm a little uncomfortable with the changes too. However, this change was absolutely needed. Heroics being so easy to get was a joke. It was dirt cheap. I gave sets away for an entire month and didn't break a sweat doing so, at least until the PC gave its last breath. As unhappy as I am that it's become harder for me to provide equipment period, something needed to happen. We can argue if it was too much or not all we like, but at the end of the day, what's done is done. Tweaks will happen here and there for sure, but only if we can justify that they're needed. A simple complaint or rant doesn't have much weight if there's no solid reasoning to why something should be adjusted.
I lost something that I enjoyed doing because of these changes, and you know what? I'm happy with it.
None of this however correlates to the rest of the Recognition shop, namely Travels and SCR Devices. I personally believe those are considerably overpriced.
What was so problematic about that gear being quick to get? Because Q gear and some gear in lairs that few people run for whatever reason were being ignored? How about instead of making an absurd grind, fix the gear that is being ignored, make it worth getting. Increase the drop rates, add mod slots, adjust the stat ratings anything would have been better.
Instead they chose the easy way out and made everything in the recog vendors cost an absurd amount.
Right, back in the day they were the top and I don't recall there having been a huge uproar about how quick it was to get them, because the grind was still significant.
Now that they're now much lower down the list, with better gear out there, suddenly they're too easy to get and too readily available that a fix was needed. That logic is absurd.
I don't think the grind for Heroics was ever significant. I think the only factors affecting this change is just that it's a different team of developers with different standards.
It does seem silly to me that now, when new, better gear is out there, they make the old gear take longer to get. I don't follow their reasoning for it. Can't say that they're wrong and I'm right, but I definitely don't follow.
Balancing a game around hard core players does nothing but screw over the average player. Heroics before the grind addition were still 100g+. That's not exactly cheap for most players.
If getting heroics was such a problem, they should have made lesser gear like Vik's stuff drop more often. Make it appealing to run that content. I've been running that more often now and I get Vik's gear about as often as I get his costume bits. Even after the supposed increase in drop rate, I normally just get a crappy r4 mod. In a level 42 lair. I doubt that many people have builds to solo it. I can't even imagine anyone bothering to get a group together. Vik is only worth running for speed runners, not for the people who actually want gear drops. You can get r4 mods from a burst with a whole lot less effort. And you get more SCR from the daily anyway. Oh, and even more Q.
It's not just grinding for Heroics, it's grinding for gear AND all of the new stuff. Those 975 SCR items must be save for exclusively. Heroics are now in competition for a whole lot of other, new stuff. Not everyone can or wants to no-life CO.
What happened is exactly what you get when a hardcore player who knows everything around the game gets to influence development of the game. The game starts being adjusted precisely to this one segment of the playerbase and their way.
And we're talking about the player who was always ignoring any point of view except for their own, so expect more changes like this one. Enjoy your future, lol. With an occasional costume fix or adjustment as a smokescreen to pacify the masses.
What Cryptic did this time was also their final statement about inability to produce anything new for CO. An entire tier of old gear had to be taken away, because CO simply will never get enough support to produce new tiers of content for new tiers of gear without creating even bigger power creep. It was basically Cryptic admitting that Teleos is the best they can do now and will always do. Recycle.
Because they will never be able to do anything more for CO. That's final.
IIRC the only game ever that went through this kind of nerf as straight taking away things from players was SW Galaxies. Well, Cryptic's in good company, at least.
Still have fun watching this very cryptic trainwreck. Even more fun watching players brown nosing devs in hope for... Hmm, thb, I don't know for what.
So what if you're able to give away extra heroic gear you don't need that you personally feel takes an "incredibly fast" time to get? It is no doubt a selfless act of generosity and kudos to whoever's getting them for free, but that's besides the point and doesn't justify why entry-level non top-tier level 40 gear suddenly needs an average of 3 weeks to get.
Yep, apparently generosity is a major flaw which required this "fix". Careful players, stop being generous or we'll get the same "fix" that CoX had (the community was so generous there).
It's possible to like CO but be unhappy with certain aspects of the game. Not everything is black and white.
I know, I'm in that boat. I see a lot of problems with CO. Unfortunately every time one of them gets fixed, the forums explode into a waterfall of salty tears from all the people who were enjoying the problems
What was so problematic about how the Heroic SCR costs were in the beginning that a drastic price increase was needed to even qualify it as a "fix"?
Gee I dunno, I guess all these conversations about power creep and how people don't have rewards to chase we had over the past few years were actually about what flavor of ice cream everyone likes best.
It could be argued that when they first went live, they weren't just entry-level gear, since they were basically the stuff. But nowadays, yeah, there's better gear and this is close to bottom-rung.
Except for the rungs below it that everyone was ignoring. Yes, people have gotten used to the broken state of things, but just because people got used to things being broken doesn't mean you don't fix them. You've actually said that yourself before.. it surprises me that this is where you suddenly switched sides to the "we like it broken, leave it broken" mentality.
Gee I dunno, I guess all these conversations about power creep and how people don't have rewards to chase we had over the past few years were actually about what flavor of ice cream everyone likes best.
Yes, people have gotten used to the broken state of things, but just because people got used to things being broken doesn't mean you don't fix them. You've actually said that yourself before.. it surprises me that this is where you suddenly switched sides to the "we like it broken, leave it broken" mentality.
Nope, you're wrong. The difference here is that there was zero indication that this gear was "broken" in any way. It's simply a different development team now that considered the gear too easy to get, so they changed it. It's not a fix, it's a change. I don't remember it being labeled as a bug or an exploit while on PTS. There's a big difference between a set of gear that's been there for years that changes when a new set of developers has a new vision for the game, and a weapon that's so obviously overpowered that basically everyone is bringing it to a boss fight, and it's literally breaking the content. Also, look at Two Gun Mojo, easily one of the most popular powers in the game because it looks cool and was hamfistedly fixed from underpowered to overpowered. I fully expect this power to get nerfed, even though it's been the way it is for years, because it doesn't fall in line with other powers of the same type. And guess what? I won't be complaining about it, because I'm not the "we like it broken, leave it broken" type (unless they nerf it into near uselessness, then I might have something to say about it). Have you heard me say a peep about the change to the Teleport to Renaissance Center device? That was one of my favorite broken things, knew it was going to be fixed sooner or later, and I have no complaints or demands to have it changed further. So please, don't be so "surprised" that I'm switching sides on this issue, because nothing's changed on my end.
Also, way to take a post I made that's actually mostly in defense of their changing the prices (because, for the dozenth-and-a-halfth time, I'm not saying the developers made a mistake or they're wrong in any way, and just saying how this affects me personally), and try to argue against it.
Furthermore, I'm not telling anyone to leave anything broken or change anything. For crap's sake, how many times do I have to repeat that before you stop with the stupid accusations?
Furthermore, I'm not telling anyone to leave anything broken or change anything. For crap's sake, how many times do I have to repeat that before you stop with the stupid accusations?
Starting to see a pattern here. We just keep repeating the same arguments and we don't seem to be going anywhere.
Spinny, someone who doesn't make alts and believes cryptic to be the end-all-be-all of gaming companies(I honestly hate to say it, but he/she is acting very much like a shill). Believes this price for casuals(not spinny, real ones who don't get to play and get heroics in weeks(and since they say everyone who wants to know exactly how long they played to get their heroics in a week is a hardcore gamer) those who go to school/work, especially.)). is deserved because it was easy to get heroics(3 tiers lower now than new gear).
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Gosh, folks sure are making a big nasty stink about this, what with all the wild accusations being leveled at both sides(though there are far more on one side then the other, and the majority is making the wildest of the accusations I would say.) Getting a little personal don't you think?
Starting to see a pattern here. We just keep repeating the same arguments and we don't seem to be going anywhere.
Spinny, someone who doesn't make alts and believes cryptic to be the end-all-be-all of gaming companies(I honestly hate to say it, but he/she is acting very much like a shill). Believes this price for casuals(not spinny, real ones who don't get to play and get heroics in weeks(and since they say everyone who wants to know exactly how long they played to get their heroics in a week is a hardcore gamer) those who go to school/work, especially.)). is deserved because it was easy to get heroics(3 tiers lower now than new gear).
Think that's a bit much to assume. Personally, I think think they're here to kick up as much s*** as they can while everyone else is too busy trying to prove themselves to someone who really doesn't care.
So what if you're able to give away extra heroic gear you don't need that you personally feel takes an "incredibly fast" time to get? It is no doubt a selfless act of generosity and kudos to whoever's getting them for free, but that's besides the point and doesn't justify why entry-level non top-tier level 40 gear suddenly needs an average of 3 weeks to get.
Here's the thing, it doesn't necessarily take three weeks to get. If one is dedicated enough, you can get a single heroic once every couple of days. People seem to be basing their assumptions on solely the prices that were raised and that the rate of SCR via UNITY was dropped. Now, that on its own would really make it take nearly three weeks to get a single piece, but there are more sources for SCR now. Rampages, Adventure Packs, Steel Crusade, even just the Alert Dailies. You can rack up quite a bit of SCR with a single character.
More sources for SCR are being considered too, so it's just a matter of sitting tight while things are being developed. I'm sure soon enough we will be able to get as much SCR as we want to work for. There's nothing wrong with raising the bar when we are getting more options to go about it, and it's not like things are getting harder unless you run alts. Just sit tight for now and wait until there's some sort of word about the next set of SCR changes. This is just a prelude, or so we've been told.
Here's the thing, it doesn't necessarily take three weeks to get. If one is dedicated enough, you can get a single heroic once every couple of days. People seem to be basing their assumptions on solely the prices that were raised and that the rate of SCR via UNITY was dropped. Now, that on its own would really make it take nearly three weeks to get a single piece, but there are more sources for SCR now. Rampages, Adventure Packs, Steel Crusade, even just the Alert Dailies. You can rack up quite a bit of SCR with a single character.
More sources for SCR are being considered too, so it's just a matter of sitting tight while things are being developed. I'm sure soon enough we will be able to get as much SCR as we want to work for. There's nothing wrong with raising the bar when we are getting more options to go about it, and it's not like things are getting harder unless you run alts. Just sit tight for now and wait until there's some sort of word about the next set of SCR changes. This is just a prelude, or so we've been told.
It's not an assumption, it's a math : 420% grind inflation either in quantity (pricings) or time (AP takes way longer to finish than an UNITY mission) and ratio 30/35 before vs 35/150 now. There's definitely something about how the bar had been raised. You don't fingersnap a 420% inflation and expect people to shut up and swallow. There's a name for this kind of attitude, I'm sure you know how it's called.
No point trying to reason with people who will infer all sorts of nasty things about you for doing nothing more than offering an alternative outlook on a not yet perfect situation.
I don't think anyone has stated that they are 100% happy rainbows and sunshine about the change...yet any response other than outrage has been instantly vilified by the irate majority. Jezy petes you guys...is there no middle ground?
There's no middle ground with most people because both "sides" of this discussion have people saying "no, you're playing dumb, so your opinion is wrong." I mean, how many times have I been attacked already just because I'm saying "this takes longer, and that makes me want to make less alts"?
People are free to post their opinions, good or bad, and this thread will likely keep going until it becomes a flame war, because insulting people for having a preferred playstyle that differs than someone else's is obviously the smart thing to do.
Why did it matter that heroic gear, which as people have been pointing out is no longer the top teir, was easy to get at this stage of the games lifespan? Increasing the cost doesn't benefit the playerbase any, people aren't going to suddenly re-run lairs they've been running for 3+ years to the point they are bored of the lairs. Those who wanted to run the lairs were already doing so.
It doesn't strengthen any aspects of the game, in fact it is doing the exact opposite. Those who wanted to run team content were already doing so, those who were doing unity missions were already doing so. Those who didn't want to still won't want to run any of these.
Why was it necessary to make the costs so absurd, if they plan to add more content that awards SCR they should have had that in place before raising the cost.
Why did it matter that heroic gear, which as people have been pointing out is no longer the top teir, was easy to get at this stage of the games lifespan? Increasing the cost doesn't benefit the playerbase any, people aren't going to suddenly re-run lairs they've been running for 3+ years to the point they are bored of the lairs. Those who wanted to run the lairs were already doing so.
It doesn't strengthen any aspects of the game, in fact it is doing the exact opposite. Those who wanted to run team content were already doing so, those who were doing unity missions were already doing so. Those who didn't want to still won't want to run any of these.
Why was it necessary to make the costs so absurd, if they plan to add more content that awards SCR they should have had that in place before raising the cost.
Adding content that awards Silver Champions Recognition doesn't mean that it's going to make it quicker to get the gear. You have more options, but ultimately you'll still be spending more time, albeit perhaps time you'd be spending doing things you'd normally be doing anyways, so it would maybe be a "passive" way of earning the stuff.
This change encourages running content that, maybe, most players aren't running. And adding a lot of different ways to get that gear other than just running alerts and UNITY all day and then calling it a day with a character is a way to help keep people immersed and doing different content than they're used to. They're seemingly trying to spread the love, as it were, which is good for the game. Get more people to do more content instead of everyone just sitting in one place and waiting for the next Alert to pop.
Why did it matter that heroic gear, which as people have been pointing out is no longer the top teir, was easy to get at this stage of the games lifespan? Increasing the cost doesn't benefit the playerbase any, people aren't going to suddenly re-run lairs they've been running for 3+ years to the point they are bored of the lairs. Those who wanted to run the lairs were already doing so.
It doesn't strengthen any aspects of the game, in fact it is doing the exact opposite. Those who wanted to run team content were already doing so, those who were doing unity missions were already doing so. Those who didn't want to still won't want to run any of these.
Why was it necessary to make the costs so absurd, if they plan to add more content that awards SCR they should have had that in place before raising the cost.
Adding content that awards Silver Champions Recognition doesn't mean that it's going to make it quicker to get the gear. You have more options, but ultimately you'll still be spending more time, albeit perhaps time you'd be spending doing things you'd normally be doing anyways, so it would maybe be a "passive" way of earning the stuff.
This change encourages running content that, maybe, most players aren't running. And adding a lot of different ways to get that gear other than just running alerts and UNITY all day and then calling it a day with a character is a way to help keep people immersed and doing different content than they're used to. They're seemingly trying to spread the love, as it were, which is good for the game. Get more people to do more content instead of everyone just sitting in one place and waiting for the next Alert to pop.
It would be nice if APs gave a competitive reward for the time they take. In the >1 hour it takes to run a full AP, you can get far more than 10SCR from other sources.
This change encourages running content that, maybe, most players aren't running. And adding a lot of different ways to get that gear other than just running alerts and UNITY all day and then calling it a day with a character is a way to help keep people immersed and doing different content than they're used to. They're seemingly trying to spread the love, as it were, which is good for the game. Get more people to do more content instead of everyone just sitting in one place and waiting for the next Alert to pop.
Good luck with that. It won't work. If the content is poor, uninvolving or just takes too darn long, the devs won't be able to persuade people to play it, regardless of how hard they may try to twist people's arms. You would think they'd know that the players have all the time in the world to crowdsource solutions to what ever challenges they can come up with - just like they did to the tedious mechanics of Onslaught - but they're still trying to push people into playing things they just don't actually like very much, and why would anyone go along with that?
UNITY wasn't that great, to be honest - it was only really challenging for low power ATs - but it was quick, repeatable content which could be slotted in on demand around other things - yup, even standing around in Ren Cen nattering - and it did give a reasonable rate of return for some equipment of value. And that's what most of the players in the game want. Perhaps we are a lazy bunch of dress-up loving, game-skill deficient duffers.... but we're keeping the game going.
I'm just unwilling to modify the definition of it according to self interest like some people. You know, like people who are happy to point out things that need to be fixed until something they like gets fixed, then suddenly it's not something that needs to be fixed. Right?
The changes pretty much killed any incentive I have to make alts. Full stop.
That's fine. People who enjoyed making alts because they enjoyed making new characters will continue to do so. People who only made alts to have additional characters to farm stuff on now have the opportunity to analyze what they spend their time doing in game and spend more time doing stuff because they enjoy it, rather than because it's profitable.
No point trying to reason with people who will infer all sorts of nasty things about you for doing nothing more than offering an alternative outlook on a not yet perfect situation.
I don't think anyone has stated that they are 100% happy rainbows and sunshine about the change...yet any response other than outrage has been instantly vilified by the irate majority. Jezy petes you guys...is there no middle ground?
It would help if the 'heroic prices are fine now' crowd would acknowledge that *time is valuable*. It's not about theoretical tokens per day, it's about minutes per heroic piece. I could play 50 rampages/day, and get a heroic each day, but that would involve playing *50 rampages in a day*. That's a lot of time. Before the changes a heroic piece took 30-40 minutes. Now it's like 4-8 hours (depending on what content and how many days you're willing to wait).
But all the 'it's fine' crowd wants to talk about is theoretical tokens per day. That's not even the relevant metric. There can't be middle ground when they won't even talk about the same thing.
50 rampages is also the same order of magnitude as the number of rampages needed for a piece of justice gear. Why farm heroics again?
50 rampages is also the same order of magnitude as the number of rampages needed for a piece of justice gear. Why farm heroics again?
Pretty sure this is the point that the "this is fine" squad just keeps on not getting. The time and effort spent in trying to get heroics can be better spent getting even better gear within the same timeframe with a little give and take. It comes off as absurd.
Why did it matter that heroic gear, which as people have been pointing out is no longer the top teir, was easy to get at this stage of the games lifespan? Increasing the cost doesn't benefit the playerbase any, people aren't going to suddenly re-run lairs they've been running for 3+ years to the point they are bored of the lairs. Those who wanted to run the lairs were already doing so.
It doesn't strengthen any aspects of the game, in fact it is doing the exact opposite. Those who wanted to run team content were already doing so, those who were doing unity missions were already doing so. Those who didn't want to still won't want to run any of these.
Why was it necessary to make the costs so absurd, if they plan to add more content that awards SCR they should have had that in place before raising the cost.
Adding content that awards Silver Champions Recognition doesn't mean that it's going to make it quicker to get the gear. You have more options, but ultimately you'll still be spending more time, albeit perhaps time you'd be spending doing things you'd normally be doing anyways, so it would maybe be a "passive" way of earning the stuff.
This change encourages running content that, maybe, most players aren't running. And adding a lot of different ways to get that gear other than just running alerts and UNITY all day and then calling it a day with a character is a way to help keep people immersed and doing different content than they're used to. They're seemingly trying to spread the love, as it were, which is good for the game. Get more people to do more content instead of everyone just sitting in one place and waiting for the next Alert to pop.
Rather then making the prices absurd, they should be increasing the rewards/xp gain/ect from lairs, aps, ect to be on par with Alerts. Fixing why players aren't running those missions, lairs, ect and fixing that would have been the better option. Those who want to run lairs were already doing so, those who don't want to will likely continue to not run them.
Adding more content to grind SCR will also increase the burn out rate with the prices set as they are.
Okay, Spinny, let's get specific. Who exactly was saying that the pricing for Heroic gear was "broken" before, and needed to be "fixed" via a drastic increase? Because I sure don't recall that conversation.
"Science teaches us to expect -- demand -- more than just eerie mysteries. What use is a puzzle that can't be solved? Patience is fine, but I'm not going to stop asking the universe to make sense!"
Okay, Spinny, let's get specific. Who exactly was saying that the pricing for Heroic gear was "broken" before, and needed to be "fixed" via a drastic increase? Because I sure don't recall that conversation.
It didn't happen by an official dev thats for sure.
Buffing everything to stupid high levels and nerfing everything to piss poor levels yields the same results, but not the same community reactions.
Comments
Many players are unhappy with this new pricings, some already left. Right, to quit is certainly the wisest choice to do for them, but is it for CO? That's why I believe that it is the player's duty to provide this kind of feedbacks and discussions.
I enjoyed the first two floors though.
Epic Stronghold
Block timing explained
Now, I recognize that it's too late for this particular lair, it is what it is, and I'm all for letting the tryhards have a place to have their version of "fun". I'm just raising my voice repeatedly in the hopes that, unlike past changes, this is not going to be the way of things going forward. I never even got involved with the grind there - SWTOR drove me away with their lousy broken excuse for F2P. When even your ability to use the in-game mail system is limited by whether or not you've given them any money - gods below, they were starting to make the Hutt look like philanthropists!
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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Oh i agree, feedback and discussions are very useful. Endless whining, accusations, demonization, and calls to get people fired on the other hand are garbage. I'd love to think that people are doing this "for the good of the game", but quite frankly it just comes off as people trying to use threats to get their in-game stuff faster.
You think the devs didn't know there would be complaints about this? Hell they probably had an office pool about how many people would threaten to quit and not follow through. They know by now that people complaining about a video game is nothing new, and is also not a sign that things are going in the wrong direction. You really want to convince them? You're going to have to try harder, not complain louder.
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If I was pointing something, then I was pointing at biffsmackwell's post. In that post, he believes that this change will affect the new players the least while I believe the opposite. Then I explained why and in context.
Buf if you got it and it's in no way connected to CO then tell us since when we're no more gamers?
Keep twisting words out of context and in a way that extrapolate the sentence outside of its meaning so we can all see the lack of validity of your great book of common sense.
Also i've a bad news for you : since the last patch, you'll have to troll me 420% more to get your Award now. I agree. It's up to everyone to act her words (boycott and stop to log in, for example).
Or at least, stop misrepresenting what other people are saying. There's very little hyperbole in this conversation, most of it is just concern for the game and people's enjoyment of it. People are saying they'd prefer a different direction, that's all. If the Devs are being told to milk the game for all it's worth, that's not their fault, but robust feedback is a part of modern life, and we all have to deal with it in some form. (It could be worse. It could be Twitter.)
Cryptic has done this to NWO and I do NOT want to see this happening in Champions Online, but I fear that history will repeat itself.
Now I don't mind grinding to get rare items, to get special unlocks, to get costume pieces, but the problem with these new prices is that they're turning farming what used to be basic items into grinding. As I've pointed out, a complete set of Heroic gear used to be about 5 to 6 hours over 6 days to get, now I doubt you could get a complete set with 18 hours over 9 days. I'll grind for new items, rare items, but when you turn something that was readily available and turn that into a grind, well, I start to lose interest.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
42 40s, LTSer.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
It was too easy to pick up Heroics. 3-6 days to deck out a single Lv40 per Lv40 character you had available is incredibly fast. If you run alts like I do, you wind up building up like 5 sets of the stuff a day. Tell me, how is that NOT in need of a fix?
Believe me, I'm a little uncomfortable with the changes too. However, this change was absolutely needed. Heroics being so easy to get was a joke. It was dirt cheap. I gave sets away for an entire month and didn't break a sweat doing so, at least until the PC gave its last breath. As unhappy as I am that it's become harder for me to provide equipment period, something needed to happen. We can argue if it was too much or not all we like, but at the end of the day, what's done is done. Tweaks will happen here and there for sure, but only if we can justify that they're needed. A simple complaint or rant doesn't have much weight if there's no solid reasoning to why something should be adjusted.
I lost something that I enjoyed doing because of these changes, and you know what? I'm happy with it.
None of this however correlates to the rest of the Recognition shop, namely Travels and SCR Devices. I personally believe those are considerably overpriced.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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EDIT: Not everyone is able to run a whole bunch of alts either to farm for the SCRs like you do without first buying that many extra slots, and buying extra slots to make alts for the sake of just farming for extra SCRs to unlock more Heroics more quickly hardly comes off as something to justify the need of a "fix". So what if you're able to give away extra heroic gear you don't need that you personally feel takes an "incredibly fast" time to get? It is no doubt a selfless act of generosity and kudos to whoever's getting them for free, but that's besides the point and doesn't justify why entry-level non top-tier level 40 gear suddenly needs an average of 3 weeks to get.
Complaints with solid reasonings already have been repeatedly made if you actually even bothered to read them.
Now that they're now much lower down the list, with better gear out there, suddenly they're too easy to get and too readily available that a fix was needed. That logic is absurd.
It was too easy to pick up Heroics. 3-6 days to deck out a single Lv40 per Lv40 character you had available is incredibly fast. If you run alts like I do, you wind up building up like 5 sets of the stuff a day. Tell me, how is that NOT in need of a fix?
Believe me, I'm a little uncomfortable with the changes too. However, this change was absolutely needed. Heroics being so easy to get was a joke. It was dirt cheap. I gave sets away for an entire month and didn't break a sweat doing so, at least until the PC gave its last breath. As unhappy as I am that it's become harder for me to provide equipment period, something needed to happen. We can argue if it was too much or not all we like, but at the end of the day, what's done is done. Tweaks will happen here and there for sure, but only if we can justify that they're needed. A simple complaint or rant doesn't have much weight if there's no solid reasoning to why something should be adjusted.
I lost something that I enjoyed doing because of these changes, and you know what? I'm happy with it.
None of this however correlates to the rest of the Recognition shop, namely Travels and SCR Devices. I personally believe those are considerably overpriced.
What was so problematic about that gear being quick to get? Because Q gear and some gear in lairs that few people run for whatever reason were being ignored? How about instead of making an absurd grind, fix the gear that is being ignored, make it worth getting. Increase the drop rates, add mod slots, adjust the stat ratings anything would have been better.
Instead they chose the easy way out and made everything in the recog vendors cost an absurd amount.
It does seem silly to me that now, when new, better gear is out there, they make the old gear take longer to get. I don't follow their reasoning for it. Can't say that they're wrong and I'm right, but I definitely don't follow.
If getting heroics was such a problem, they should have made lesser gear like Vik's stuff drop more often. Make it appealing to run that content. I've been running that more often now and I get Vik's gear about as often as I get his costume bits. Even after the supposed increase in drop rate, I normally just get a crappy r4 mod. In a level 42 lair. I doubt that many people have builds to solo it. I can't even imagine anyone bothering to get a group together. Vik is only worth running for speed runners, not for the people who actually want gear drops. You can get r4 mods from a burst with a whole lot less effort. And you get more SCR from the daily anyway. Oh, and even more Q.
It's not just grinding for Heroics, it's grinding for gear AND all of the new stuff. Those 975 SCR items must be save for exclusively. Heroics are now in competition for a whole lot of other, new stuff. Not everyone can or wants to no-life CO.
[at]riviania Member since Aug 2009
What happened is exactly what you get when a hardcore player who knows everything around the game gets to influence development of the game. The game starts being adjusted precisely to this one segment of the playerbase and their way.
And we're talking about the player who was always ignoring any point of view except for their own, so expect more changes like this one. Enjoy your future, lol. With an occasional costume fix or adjustment as a smokescreen to pacify the masses.
What Cryptic did this time was also their final statement about inability to produce anything new for CO. An entire tier of old gear had to be taken away, because CO simply will never get enough support to produce new tiers of content for new tiers of gear without creating even bigger power creep. It was basically Cryptic admitting that Teleos is the best they can do now and will always do. Recycle.
Because they will never be able to do anything more for CO. That's final.
IIRC the only game ever that went through this kind of nerf as straight taking away things from players was SW Galaxies. Well, Cryptic's in good company, at least.
Still have fun watching this very cryptic trainwreck. Even more fun watching players brown nosing devs in hope for... Hmm, thb, I don't know for what.
Careful players, stop being generous or we'll get the same "fix" that CoX had (the community was so generous there).
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
Also, way to take a post I made that's actually mostly in defense of their changing the prices (because, for the dozenth-and-a-halfth time, I'm not saying the developers made a mistake or they're wrong in any way, and just saying how this affects me personally), and try to argue against it.
Furthermore, I'm not telling anyone to leave anything broken or change anything. For crap's sake, how many times do I have to repeat that before you stop with the stupid accusations?
Good luck with that one Biff.
Click here to check out my costumes/milleniumguardian (MG) in-game/We need more tights, stances and moods
42 40s, LTSer.
Here's the thing, it doesn't necessarily take three weeks to get. If one is dedicated enough, you can get a single heroic once every couple of days. People seem to be basing their assumptions on solely the prices that were raised and that the rate of SCR via UNITY was dropped. Now, that on its own would really make it take nearly three weeks to get a single piece, but there are more sources for SCR now. Rampages, Adventure Packs, Steel Crusade, even just the Alert Dailies. You can rack up quite a bit of SCR with a single character.
More sources for SCR are being considered too, so it's just a matter of sitting tight while things are being developed. I'm sure soon enough we will be able to get as much SCR as we want to work for. There's nothing wrong with raising the bar when we are getting more options to go about it, and it's not like things are getting harder unless you run alts. Just sit tight for now and wait until there's some sort of word about the next set of SCR changes. This is just a prelude, or so we've been told.
And I will always be @DZPlayer122.
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There's definitely something about how the bar had been raised. You don't fingersnap a 420% inflation and expect people to shut up and swallow. There's a name for this kind of attitude, I'm sure you know how it's called.
I don't think anyone has stated that they are 100% happy rainbows and sunshine about the change...yet any response other than outrage has been instantly vilified by the irate majority. Jezy petes you guys...is there no middle ground?
My guess at this point is:
Nope, probably not.
People are free to post their opinions, good or bad, and this thread will likely keep going until it becomes a flame war, because insulting people for having a preferred playstyle that differs than someone else's is obviously the smart thing to do.
Full stop.
It doesn't strengthen any aspects of the game, in fact it is doing the exact opposite. Those who wanted to run team content were already doing so, those who were doing unity missions were already doing so. Those who didn't want to still won't want to run any of these.
Why was it necessary to make the costs so absurd, if they plan to add more content that awards SCR they should have had that in place before raising the cost.
This change encourages running content that, maybe, most players aren't running. And adding a lot of different ways to get that gear other than just running alerts and UNITY all day and then calling it a day with a character is a way to help keep people immersed and doing different content than they're used to. They're seemingly trying to spread the love, as it were, which is good for the game. Get more people to do more content instead of everyone just sitting in one place and waiting for the next Alert to pop.
Good luck with that. It won't work. If the content is poor, uninvolving or just takes too darn long, the devs won't be able to persuade people to play it, regardless of how hard they may try to twist people's arms. You would think they'd know that the players have all the time in the world to crowdsource solutions to what ever challenges they can come up with - just like they did to the tedious mechanics of Onslaught - but they're still trying to push people into playing things they just don't actually like very much, and why would anyone go along with that?
UNITY wasn't that great, to be honest - it was only really challenging for low power ATs - but it was quick, repeatable content which could be slotted in on demand around other things - yup, even standing around in Ren Cen nattering - and it did give a reasonable rate of return for some equipment of value. And that's what most of the players in the game want. Perhaps we are a lazy bunch of dress-up loving, game-skill deficient duffers.... but we're keeping the game going.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
My super cool CC build and how to use it.
But all the 'it's fine' crowd wants to talk about is theoretical tokens per day. That's not even the relevant metric. There can't be middle ground when they won't even talk about the same thing.
50 rampages is also the same order of magnitude as the number of rampages needed for a piece of justice gear. Why farm heroics again?
Adding more content to grind SCR will also increase the burn out rate with the prices set as they are.
- David Brin, "Those Eyes"
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42 40s, LTSer.