josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
> @xsayajinx1 said: > 400:1 is practically wrong on live because you can overpenetrate with the armorpen stat due to a so called bug. > > Ayroux took these numbers as proof that BiS can kill BiS on live - the wrong numbers... I don't agree to "balance" after practically wrong numbers. 400:1 is again WRONG on live.
Doubling down doesn't help your argument. Arpen is 400:1 in pvp on live. In pvp, you only get ~ 25% of the RI that you get in pve. Pve is ~100:1 . 100x4:1 = 400:1.
With the proposed changes, Arpen will be buffed to 200:1 (in general, vs everyone) and nerfed vs low dr targets. This means you will do more damage to dr-based builds (dc, gwf, op) and less damage to low-dr builds. But it's still 200:1. A reasonable nerf to tank survability and a buff to new players seems like what everyone wants, and these Arpen changes accomplish that objective.
Speculating (can't test yet) on the piercing change: This may nerf tr too much, and thus may not be appropriate until the larger pvp rework can be incorporated. Will test when these changes hit ptr.
HR combat damage nerf, perspective trapper varient damage buff halved... no change to twoshot gfs, gwf buff, and still insane amounts of c.c. around. Lol.
Oh well, I was planning to take a break from pvp anyway.
Seriously though, if TRs and HRs are going to have a few fangs removed, piercing wise, then GFs absolutely need a good strong kick to the fundamentals too. GFs have been two-shotting people since forever, and seemingly have flown right under the nerf hammer radar.
People can usually walk roll or run out of my plantgrowth, and live. With a GF though... miss that first dodge and you are dead. And if you were already cc'd, then goodnight Vienna.
Please fix GFs.
No idea what my toon is now.
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
HR combat damage nerf, perspective trapper varient damage buff halved... no change to twoshot gfs, gwf buff, and still insane amounts of c.c. around. Lol.
Oh well, I was planning to take a break from pvp anyway.
If you read what the dev wrote is that most changes are planned for the following mod these are just side effects of adjusting armor pen and there is a whole other thread for pvp to post stuff in ./....
just because hr or tr class got nerfed ( or a players favoured class) as a side effects of armor pen adjustment does not mean gfs need to be punished / reworked right away .. this is a not a class change thread
gwf buff was mention by dev by the way
cc was also mentioned as being on the table by the dev for next following mod did you actually read the thread ?
you want all these changes done instantly with no testing LOL ??
waaa my over power class with a broken overpowered piecing mechanic got nerfed as a side effect of the devs trying to make drastic changes at the ground level in pvp ... my sympathies do not go out to you ..
we have all these smart player in the thread and instead of trying to rework global pvp variables and suggestion that might help every one..THEY turn into a nerf my class buff my class thread ...,. THEY DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT IN ONE SHOT !!!! guys wake up
HRs were given, as you will remember kalina, you being around forever just like me, piercing damage as a hotfix pretty much, because prior to that our damage was laughably bad. The reason the devs gave us piercing still exists, I remember fighting you once on my stunbot trapper HR prior to the combat changes, I could keep you stunned for 3 rotations, but still NOT ACTUALLY HURT YOU AT ALL...
If piercing respects tenacity (which I thought was ultimately to be phased out???) then HR base damage needs a buff, which they can't do... because then our pve damage would blow all the little gwfs right out of the water.
So we'll be back in the old boat, no HRs in PvP, except the die-hard trapper stunbot support characters, which won't be me. Mid will be full of immortal DCs and OPs, with GFs popping out from behind their shields to two shot someone occasionally. And you of course, doing some pillar-sitting and shard-pushing. GG.
Doubling down doesn't help your argument. Arpen is 400:1 in pvp on live. In pvp, you only get ~ 25% of the RI that you get in pve. Pve is ~100:1 . 100x4:1 = 400:1.
I've tested it in IWD and it is ~100:1 (ignoring diminishing return). It's just that tenacity is making arpen much less effective.
Speaking for TR, class that relies way worse on piercing than HR.. at least I can tell it's going somewhere. Piercing only became too good when TR got so much left behind by layers of layers of DR, healing and endless nerf this and that.
75% AP resist down to 50% flat is not nothing. I'll take it. Curious to see if GF will still be two shotting players after the overpen bug fix though. I play light armored so I quickly grasped that bug meant they were doing 20~50% more to me just from AP and mark maybe.
Still, it's a nerf. Lots of TRs just gotta adapt or shed tears of blood. I know what you'd all prefer LOL
In the beginning (pre-tenacity), SE was rarely used with TR. Most of the really good pvp rogues ran some form of permastealth with high INT/r10 silvery and p. bilethorn. Along with Bloodbath and Lurker's. As far as I remember, SE was the only piercing damage IN THE WHOLE GAME. It was not a very good finishing move either, at the time. It was nerfed during open beta if I recall correctly.
I digress.
SE should retain a special damaging mechanic for its originally intended use, i.e. as an execution/finishing-off of weakened opponents with low HP %. They should change it so that <25% health, a boost kicks in exponentially: whether it's %RI boost, piercing, yadda yadda, you get the point. The classic DnD backstab (or in our case, head stab)
But, fix what you can Devs. I like the OP talk of getting rid of ArP mitigation in tenacity. That was a great start to a very long conversation.
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
Doubling down doesn't help your argument. Arpen is 400:1 in pvp on live. In pvp, you only get ~ 25% of the RI that you get in pve. Pve is ~100:1 . 100x4:1 = 400:1.
I've tested it in IWD and it is ~100:1 (ignoring diminishing return). It's just that tenacity is making arpen much less effective.
Yes.... this is what we have been saying..... LOL....
Your ARP is only ~25-30% effective because of ARP resist which is on average between 70-75%.... Which MEANS that its 1/4th - 1/3rd as effective In pvp.
So... in OTHER words.... ON LIVE its currently 333:1 - 400:1 in PVP. Its actually MUCH MUCH higher at the current LEVELs of ARP people are stacking BTW... So its actually probably MORE like 600:1%+
So not only does reducing it to 50% ARP Resist count as a significant improvement to the value of ARP (and the devalue of DR) but you ALSO dont have to get into super high Dim returns land, which even FURTHER increases its value....
I thought people here were smarter than this, so when someone says the NET impact, they didnt have to state the obvious:
ARP at 100:1 with 75% "Arp Resist" = 400:1% in PVP. If we REALLY wanna get analytical I can post the RI dim returns and the current levels of ARP people use to show how its even WORSE than 400:1% but for the sake of time I think everyone should be able to "get it" using just the fundamental:
100:1% * (1-ARp Resist) = NEW ARP RETURN. *insert 75 as current ARP resist)
100:1% * (1-75%) = 100: .25% OR in OTHER words..... 400:1%.....
This means you will do more damage to dr-based builds (dc, gwf, op) and less damage to low-dr builds.
Which is stupid as hell. squisy classes like TR and HR should receive more damage than armored classes like GWF and GF but well, let's see how this goes and where this change put us on...
Completely agree. Which is why ARP at 100:1% AND no ARP resist is pretty stupid because minimal ARP investment counters a HUGE investment in DR...
All classes will essentially be 0% DR in PVP without ARp Resist (or a better ARP curve for PVE and PVP as well) Which is silly.
DR should matter. It should be hard to fully counter 80% DR. That is a TON of DR..... It should take a considerable investment and "tradeoff" to counter DR.
Things like AC should be more valued... That and Defense are what "separate" the squishy from non squishy classes...
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kalina311Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,082Arc User
HRs were given, as you will remember kalina, you being around forever just like me, piercing damage as a hotfix pretty much, because prior to that our damage was laughably bad. The reason the devs gave us piercing still exists, I remember fighting you once on my stunbot trapper HR prior to the combat changes, I could keep you stunned for 3 rotations, but still NOT ACTUALLY HURT YOU AT ALL...
If piercing respects tenacity (which I thought was ultimately to be phased out???) then HR base damage needs a buff, which they can't do... because then our pve damage would blow all the little gwfs right out of the water.
So we'll be back in the old boat, no HRs in PvP, except the die-hard trapper stunbot support characters, which won't be me. Mid will be full of immortal DCs and OPs, with GFs popping out from behind their shields to two shot someone occasionally. And you of course, doing some pillar-sitting and shard-pushing. GG.
balancing classes around my immortal tanky 50% deflect Cw ( that was specialzed to be held and get tankier and self heal more so the more you hit me the more i healed / the tankier i got lol is not recommended lol
if you were holding me for 3 seconds and i could not do anything... why should it equate to damage then you were a trapper not combat hr ,.,
like i said before i would not mind there being something on all classes feat tree that puts a hard choice on damage vs control / vs control resist resist vs tankness etc .. On the Cw feat tree it forces you to pick single target damage or aoe damage to be buffed and the other nerfed ...
i would not mind see the same thing on tr and hr feat trees to make it fair for them and add flavor
100:1% * (1-ARp Resist) = NEW ARP RETURN. *insert 75 as current ARP resist)
100:1% * (1-75%) = 100: .25% OR in OTHER words..... 400:1%.....
Actually arp pen effectiveness gets reduced by DR, tenacity DR and crit resist as well, so if someone has max tenacity it's even less than 25% effective (See my post for details).
Removing arp resist and making arp 50% effective actually provides less protection than 50% arp resist. Some classes might suffer from this but I'm for it coz people don't freaking die.
100:1% * (1-ARp Resist) = NEW ARP RETURN. *insert 75 as current ARP resist)
100:1% * (1-75%) = 100: .25% OR in OTHER words..... 400:1%.....
Actually arp pen effectiveness gets reduced by DR, tenacity DR and crit resist as well, so if someone has max tenacity it's even less than 25% effective (See my post for details).
Removing arp resist and making arp 50% effective actually provides less protection than 50% arp resist. Some classes might suffer from this but I'm for it coz people don't freaking die.
Yes, im trying to stay out of the weeds - but yes. This is also why I am against all the "layers" here. We should have 2 layers: Normal DR (DR+AC+ARP/RI all affect this) Tenacity DR (a special layer that merely cuts all damage to compensate for PVE damage being so high).
Crit Resist should be changes to be a "Severity Modifier" rather than its own layer.... So something LIKE "75% reduction of your crit severity in PVP".
MEANING, only 25% of your severity applies in PVP.
In the beginning (pre-tenacity), SE was rarely used with TR. Most of the really good pvp rogues ran some form of permastealth with high INT/r10 silvery and p. bilethorn. Along with Bloodbath and Lurker's. As far as I remember, SE was the only piercing damage IN THE WHOLE GAME. It was not a very good finishing move either, at the time. It was nerfed during open beta if I recall correctly.
I digress.
SE should retain a special damaging mechanic for its originally intended use, i.e. as an execution/finishing-off of weakened opponents with low HP %. They should change it so that <25% health, a boost kicks in exponentially: whether it's %RI boost, piercing, yadda yadda, you get the point. The classic DnD backstab (or in our case, head stab)
But, fix what you can Devs. I like the OP talk of getting rid of ArP mitigation in tenacity. That was a great start to a very long conversation.</p>
I agree with this. I do think SE should be a cool finisher and I think that it should get a mechanic LIKE Anvil of Doom - where it deals double damage under an HP treshhold... Likely the same treshhold in which it refills your AP...
Then it could be used very well as a proper finisher
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josiahiyonMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 396Arc User
100:1% * (1-ARp Resist) = NEW ARP RETURN. *insert 75 as current ARP resist)
100:1% * (1-75%) = 100: .25% OR in OTHER words..... 400:1%.....
Actually arp pen effectiveness gets reduced by DR, tenacity DR and crit resist as well, so if someone has max tenacity it's even less than 25% effective (See my post for details).
Removing arp resist and making arp 50% effective actually provides less protection than 50% arp resist. Some classes might suffer from this but I'm for it coz people don't freaking die.
Exactly. The proposed 50% Arpen effectiveness will be a nerf to tank dr-classes like DC, GWF, and OP. It will increase number of deaths. I support this, even though it is a nerf to my class.
Iyon the Dark
1
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited June 2017
I have a question why so much complaining about the damage resistance when that stat it never was the priority in pvp? i am playing this game since module 2 and i always remember all classes focus to stack hp and deflect what is this all about the damage resistance? thanks.
https://prnt.sc/fovli9 and here with proof the armor penetration is not 100 : 1% for every penetration number after some point https://prnt.sc/fovmc7 here again resist ignore is 46.8% for 5000 penetration. unlike dr is always 400: 1 for any defence number.
I have a question why so much complaining about the damage resistance when that stat it never was the priority in pvp? i am playing this game since module 2 and i always remember all classes focus to stack hp and deflect what is this all about the damage resistance? thanks.
https://prnt.sc/fovli9 and here with proof the armor penetration is not 100 : 1% for every penetration number after some point https://prnt.sc/fovmc7 here again resist ignore is 46.8% for 5000 penetration. unlike dr is always 400: 1 for any defence number.
When we say 100:1, we are ignoring the diminishing return impact (for simplicity).
When we say 400:1 in pvp, we are keeping the above simplification and incorporating the ~75% tenacity Arpen resistance that is on live for bis toons. I think this has been stated several times in this thread, so hopefully it is clear by now.
@rgutscheradev i think that we have 2 different problems... and i think that the only solution should bring back Hard diminishing returns and 80% capstats for PvP only.
Something like this COULD work... I think @josiahiyon 's version is the best I have seen where he created the pre-mod 6 "formulas" for stats in PVP. Which would more or less "equalize" gear to a large extent.
I linked that thread earlier in this thread but I see this is one of the most probably and easiest to do solutions to the pvp problem of gear gap issues in NW....
icyphishMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,255Arc User
I totally agree with @xsayajinx1 post, I play actively in both PvP and PvE too. Closing the gap would help bring more players to PvP and help more players to enjoy the best of both worlds.
While we have loadouts that can help us switch the builds and gears, it doesnt change the fact that the enchaments required for both modes are very different, and this could easily push more players to stick with either just PvP or PvE.
I would really love to see more players being able to enjouy both modes and will strongly advocate for xsayajinx's suggestion.
However, I do think we need a pool of resistance that AP negates, and another pool that it doesn't affect. For sure, Armor Class and Defense go in that first pool. For sure, Tenacity and GF/P shields go in that second pool.
@rgutscheradev this is the second time you've stated that the Paladin shield is a separate layer of defence so I'm assuming this is actually what you think and not just a typing oversight.
The OP shield is not a separate layer (feel free to check for yourself) but it was something strongly requested by Paladin players during the last round of adjustments.
The general feeling of paladins commenting was that as it's a 360 degree shield it should be a separate layer but at a much lower value than the GF shield; somewhere around 40-45% DR.
Please Do Not Feed The Trolls
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
In my opinion, the real gate for lots of players are SH boons. You simply cant be in a smaller guild and compete in PvP because the 8k offensive stats and defensive stats are creating the huge gaps between players. You can have two players with the exact same gear and the one in a small guild wont have a fair fight against the one in a bigger guild.
The release of Stronghold did some real damage to the PvP community because some pure PvP players didn't want to invest time in so much PvE grinding to level up Strongholds and by not doing that, they couldn't compete on equal ground.
Now you might not be able to simply just deactivate the SH boons in PvP, because some classes depends more on stats than others and that would create new balance issues. The boons do cover up some problems with some classes. But another way to go would be to unlock all SH boons at highest rank in PvP for everyone. This will maintain the current balance and it will make a huge difference in closing the gap between players. Also this would solve problems for PvP players that are in PvE guilds with boons focused on PvE and take the pressure of PvP guilds for doing lots of PvE SH farming that rather drives them away from the game.
Or bring Back diminishing returns like others suggested.
All the campaign boons are not that big of a deal except for a few ones like cold shoulder and endless consumption (that cant be nerfed without hurting GWF).
Other things to consider is potions/foods. I mean why not limit the total amount of pots/foods instead of letting players stack up enough stats from these that adds up to like 10 x rank 12s or so. Or just remove them all together.
Solo and private queu system will do more for pvp then the rest of the changes, implementing a item lvl system would also help.
Right now the last changes with piercing etc has not gone live as for as I know and need to be tested.
There is a big issue with the suggestion about arpen and that it would require huge amount of RI making pve players that dont adjust still suffer from same gap and that is if stacking defence or having classes that relay on defence get something for that against low armored classes.
The light armored classes has some built in advantages against heavy armored like cc dodges more deflect etc and if you nullify the benifit from heavy armor with all having high enough RI that defence is useless it will give light armored classes unfair upper hand.
One HUGE factor that as far as I can see have not been tested yet is how much crit severity changes will effect the damage outcome from some classes.
Gwf and and Hr in particular can reach much higher crit severity then others the second will over 200% mark with trance dread so again we need t test these changes with devs before we know exactly the outcome.
What I do know is that if piercing severity hits a 50% resist is that Hr will go trapper and Tr will go full perma/cc with a never ending red smoke cb preventing anything that resembles pvp.
If nothing is done with the cc system as it is and new pve gear will allow recovery stats of 20k+ you will not see 4 Tr/ 10 match domination you will see 5-6 and can as well go afk as no one will be able to fight.
Dailies need to have an idc of at least 1 min for all major game inpacts like exe(maby not after change hard to say) cb etc etc most classes has some that can be abused except maby Pal and Hr....
Break up resist, give lighter armored classes less and heavy armored more would be an easy road to take.
Most games have alot more resist like magic, fire/ice(elemental), poison etc which in turn makes it better when you give different resist to different classes(more magic to cws more damage to tanks etc) but I dont think this is going to happen in NW.
As for now I think we need to wait for testing result to come in something are bound to be broken and some we might find works perfectly fine.
@kalina311 then you didn't understand my post. Every PvE player will aim for 100% crit + highest crit severity, for 60% RI (75% next mod) and after that for as much power as possible.
A PvP player will avoid every single point of crit to stack up Power + armorpen (there are of course exceptions like SS CW or combat HR etc.) But the majority will stack power + pen to be effective in PvP.
Why? Because crits are mitigated multiple times by Tenacity including armpen resist which makes it obselete to stack on live. Your ROI of a pen + power build is way better.
So far we agree man. The solution is to fix crits - like I have proposed in this thread many times over. Crit Resist should NOT be another layer of reduction "*(1-crit resist)" but RATHER should be changed so that it multiplies your critical SEVERITY by ~25%.
Currently on live. 43% Crit Resist and an attacker with 75% Severity will deal (1.75*(1-43%)) = 99.75% damage of a NON crit (yes less damage).
So you have an issue where crits are not worth it. (btw this doesnt factor in effectiveness - but assumes you are high enough effectiveness to matter). What I mean by this is if your non crits are only 30% effective, your crits are floored at 20% effective, so the closer you get to 20% effective, the MORE damage your crits do in relation to non crits. The higher your effectiveness, the LESS your crits do in relation.
So what should happen is a change. Where crit severity is reduced by 75% in PVP. Based on YOUR severity. This would mean a 75% severity player, a crit would deal 18.75% more damage - regardless of damage resist or effectiveness or ARP values.
1. You don't need to overstack armpen to deal effective damage in PvP and the necessary amount of armpen in PvP & PvE got as close as never before.
2. Crits were finally doing more damage than a non-crit even at 75% base severity.
You do realize, that when everyone has higher ARP = higher effectiveness = crits are WORSE in relation correct? The ARP change does nothing to impact crit damage... unless you took OFF tenacity % down to 40% then crits would deal more, OR stacked more crit severity... But make no mistake, more effectiveness = the less crits matter.
@rgutscheradev I would really like to hear your opinion about getting PvE & PvP closer together in terms of stats needed (which is easily doable through Tenacity changes as mentioned above) and then balance the classes on the base of that. Is it even a realistic suggestion, something devs can consider possible?
I 100% agree. This is the #1 issue in PVP. PVE players stack crit. So crit resist needs a rework - to not be a double layer of tenacity but merely an adjustment to severity. This lowers the gap.
ARP resist will need to go at a later point when ARP is changed to a 200:1 or 300:1 curve. Making it 100:1 in PVP is just silly as it makes higher DR (tanks classes) take WAY more damage, where as the squishy classes have been given I-frames to counter not having DR, so the "easy ARP returns" would be a buff to low DR targets (who ALREADY got a MAJOR buff with ARP not overpenetrating).
Tenacity needs to be removed altogether on gear and just placed on character sheet.
Those would go a LONG way to fixing the "bridge" although unless they address the massive power creep attained through all the modules via boons, itll never be "in a good spot". Boons create tens of thousands of stat gap between players base. So THIS is where diminishing returns could work in PVP - to reduce the "advantage" of stacking 30k of stat - where a casual player, normaly player, or PVE player might not have the luxury of stacking those high values of PVP stats (another example would be things like HP or Lifesteal - where PVE players dont really stack those stats).
Solo and private queu system will do more for pvp then the rest of the changes, implementing a item lvl system would also help.
Right now the last changes with piercing etc has not gone live as for as I know and need to be tested.
There is a big issue with the suggestion about arpen and that it would require huge amount of RI making pve players that dont adjust still suffer from same gap and that is if stacking defence or having classes that relay on defence get something for that against low armored classes.
The light armored classes has some built in advantages against heavy armored like cc dodges more deflect etc and if you nullify the benifit from heavy armor with all having high enough RI that defence is useless it will give light armored classes unfair upper hand.
One HUGE factor that as far as I can see have not been tested yet is how much crit severity changes will effect the damage outcome from some classes.
Gwf and and Hr in particular can reach much higher crit severity then others the second will over 200% mark with trance dread so again we need t test these changes with devs before we know exactly the outcome.
What I do know is that if piercing severity hits a 50% resist is that Hr will go trapper and Tr will go full perma/cc with a never ending red smoke cb preventing anything that resembles pvp.
If nothing is done with the cc system as it is and new pve gear will allow recovery stats of 20k+ you will not see 4 Tr/ 10 match domination you will see 5-6 and can as well go afk as no one will be able to fight.
Dailies need to have an idc of at least 1 min for all major game inpacts like exe(maby not after change hard to say) cb etc etc most classes has some that can be abused except maby Pal and Hr....
Break up resist, give lighter armored classes less and heavy armored more would be an easy road to take.
Most games have alot more resist like magic, fire/ice(elemental), poison etc which in turn makes it better when you give different resist to different classes(more magic to cws more damage to tanks etc) but I dont think this is going to happen in NW.
As for now I think we need to wait for testing result to come in something are bound to be broken and some we might find works perfectly fine.
I agree with your intended point, i.e. that ArP changes could possibly create "control-based, striker-lite DPSers, and that different Q's are a great idea. However, I disagree with your conclusion (all due respect ) about heavy armor vs light armor control and cc resist.
GF is one of the most cc resistant/controlling classes in pvp. Prone, stun, DING, that daily that hits you from a million feet away (sensationalized of course lol)...dead. GF should be able to do a lot of that. Shield bashing, etc is an actually thing from real sword and board fighting. GF are a mix of tank/dps/control. This should be balanced though. I think what you meant is courage breaker, but this is the only way that I know to kill a skilled GF (with a dazing/high recovery/SoD TR). If CB gets changed (as it probably should) then the GF shield/OP tempHP/DC whatever they do to be able to just stand there and laugh at me , should be easier to break through. Infinite GF shield needs a diminishing return with respect to guard amount or dropped DR. SB doesn't work very well vs GF unless you daze then drop it. Infinite encounter spamming IS HAMSTER pvp up. More positional strategy and teamwork needs to be the focal shift. Once they have correctly implemented ArP changes, CC should indeed be super-balanced.
Marnival, you're pretty much hitting the nail on the head, it's just that it seems that the DEVs have little resources to take on tenacity/ArP balance/cc/individual class issues.
We need a fund drive..."We'll WASH YOUR CAR, play nekkid matches, pimp out our toons wearing courtesan outfits , HELP SAVE NWO PVP NOW!!!" Good idea?
(Disclaimer: I know that I'm not even close to being "skilled", but I am similar to the majority that play TR in pvp, i.e. mediocre. )
P.S. The majority is what fleshes out this community though, think about the group not just individual. (not directed at you Marnival)
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" - Frank Zappa
1
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
However, I do think we need a pool of resistance that AP negates, and another pool that it doesn't affect. For sure, Armor Class and Defense go in that first pool. For sure, Tenacity and GF/P shields go in that second pool.
@rgutscheradev this is the second time you've stated that the Paladin shield is a separate layer of defence so I'm assuming this is actually what you think and not just a typing oversight.
The OP shield is not a separate layer (feel free to check for yourself) but it was something strongly requested by Paladin players during the last round of adjustments.
The general feeling of paladins commenting was that as it's a 360 degree shield it should be a separate layer but at a much lower value than the GF shield; somewhere around 40-45% DR.
TBH, I'm almost certain he's referring to the paladin shields that show up as a blue bar over your hitpoints... y'know, the Bulwark mechanics that not many people actually use. Sanctuary isn't a shield.
Ed: Any OP ability where the tooltip says "you/party/allies are shielded".
a Pve player is getting 100% crit with bonding rune stones ... there are not pets in pvp the average pve player (without a class mechanic) has 40-60% crit they are not wasting build points on as much crit as you would have us believe
classes that dont need crit/ can t suppress thier crits would not/need to be stacking it anyways are we not trying to balance pvp based on average player stats and curves to encourage more people providing tenacity is removed it would not be that hard for a pve player to swap around a few pieces .. also given the new 500 item level stuff coming out that can be grinded by pve
we all want new blood to face in pvp just saying i think its all going to balance out also with bracketing you would not be facing such players with bad gear distribution anyways they would be facing their own kind.. isnt the fairest system for pvp for players rankings / brackets to actually not be based on gear or powers but on how they perform with what they have ?
With brackets we wont be stuck with afkers campers, kickers and botters where they can all be happy together in their own pvp hell
@ROYINEVER it appears your posts are being shadow banned no doubt you have positive things to say again lol do you still think and I quote from you ... "elites" have some real life issues that they come here and try feel good about them self in pixel game with pixel toons , feeling "important" and "powerfull"
are you trying to get this thread locked to sabotage pvp feedback again *sigh* is that it?
Comments
> 400:1 is practically wrong on live because you can overpenetrate with the armorpen stat due to a so called bug.
>
> Ayroux took these numbers as proof that BiS can kill BiS on live - the wrong numbers... I don't agree to "balance" after practically wrong numbers. 400:1 is again WRONG on live.
Doubling down doesn't help your argument. Arpen is 400:1 in pvp on live. In pvp, you only get ~ 25% of the RI that you get in pve. Pve is ~100:1 . 100x4:1 = 400:1.
With the proposed changes, Arpen will be buffed to 200:1 (in general, vs everyone) and nerfed vs low dr targets. This means you will do more damage to dr-based builds (dc, gwf, op) and less damage to low-dr builds. But it's still 200:1. A reasonable nerf to tank survability and a buff to new players seems like what everyone wants, and these Arpen changes accomplish that objective.
Speculating (can't test yet) on the piercing change: This may nerf tr too much, and thus may not be appropriate until the larger pvp rework can be incorporated. Will test when these changes hit ptr.
Iyon the Dark
Oh well, I was planning to take a break from pvp anyway.
Seriously though, if TRs and HRs are going to have a few fangs removed, piercing wise, then GFs absolutely need a good strong kick to the fundamentals too. GFs have been two-shotting people since forever, and seemingly have flown right under the nerf hammer radar.
People can usually walk roll or run out of my plantgrowth, and live. With a GF though... miss that first dodge and you are dead. And if you were already cc'd, then goodnight Vienna.
Please fix GFs.
these are just side effects of adjusting armor pen and there is a whole other thread for pvp to post stuff in ./....
just because hr or tr class got nerfed ( or a players favoured class) as a side effects of armor pen adjustment does not mean gfs need to be punished / reworked right away .. this is a not a class change thread
gwf buff was mention by dev by the way
cc was also mentioned as being on the table by the dev for next following mod did you actually read the thread ?
you want all these changes done instantly with no testing LOL ??
waaa my over power class with a broken overpowered piecing mechanic got nerfed as a side effect of the devs trying to make drastic changes at the ground level in pvp ... my sympathies do not go out to you ..
we have all these smart player in the thread and instead of trying to rework global pvp variables and suggestion that might help every one..THEY turn into a nerf my class buff my class thread ...,. THEY DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO THAT IN ONE SHOT !!!!
guys wake up
I'm comfortable with that.
HRs were given, as you will remember kalina, you being around forever just like me, piercing damage as a hotfix pretty much, because prior to that our damage was laughably bad. The reason the devs gave us piercing still exists, I remember fighting you once on my stunbot trapper HR prior to the combat changes, I could keep you stunned for 3 rotations, but still NOT ACTUALLY HURT YOU AT ALL...
If piercing respects tenacity (which I thought was ultimately to be phased out???) then HR base damage needs a buff, which they can't do... because then our pve damage would blow all the little gwfs right out of the water.
So we'll be back in the old boat, no HRs in PvP, except the die-hard trapper stunbot support characters, which won't be me. Mid will be full of immortal DCs and OPs, with GFs popping out from behind their shields to two shot someone occasionally. And you of course, doing some pillar-sitting and shard-pushing. GG.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
75% AP resist down to 50% flat is not nothing. I'll take it. Curious to see if GF will still be two shotting players after the overpen bug fix though. I play light armored so I quickly grasped that bug meant they were doing 20~50% more to me just from AP and mark maybe.
Still, it's a nerf. Lots of TRs just gotta adapt or shed tears of blood. I know what you'd all prefer LOL
I digress.
SE should retain a special damaging mechanic for its originally intended use, i.e. as an execution/finishing-off of weakened opponents with low HP %. They should change it so that <25% health, a boost kicks in exponentially:
whether it's %RI boost, piercing, yadda yadda, you get the point. The classic DnD backstab (or in our case, head stab)
But, fix what you can Devs. I like the OP talk of getting rid of ArP mitigation in tenacity. That was a great start to a very long conversation.
Your ARP is only ~25-30% effective because of ARP resist which is on average between 70-75%.... Which MEANS that its 1/4th - 1/3rd as effective In pvp.
So... in OTHER words.... ON LIVE its currently 333:1 - 400:1 in PVP. Its actually MUCH MUCH higher at the current LEVELs of ARP people are stacking BTW... So its actually probably MORE like 600:1%+
So not only does reducing it to 50% ARP Resist count as a significant improvement to the value of ARP (and the devalue of DR) but you ALSO dont have to get into super high Dim returns land, which even FURTHER increases its value....
I thought people here were smarter than this, so when someone says the NET impact, they didnt have to state the obvious:
ARP at 100:1 with 75% "Arp Resist" = 400:1% in PVP. If we REALLY wanna get analytical I can post the RI dim returns and the current levels of ARP people use to show how its even WORSE than 400:1% but for the sake of time I think everyone should be able to "get it" using just the fundamental:
100:1% * (1-ARp Resist) = NEW ARP RETURN.
*insert 75 as current ARP resist)
100:1% * (1-75%) = 100: .25% OR in OTHER words..... 400:1%.....
Completely agree. Which is why ARP at 100:1% AND no ARP resist is pretty stupid because minimal ARP investment counters a HUGE investment in DR...
All classes will essentially be 0% DR in PVP without ARp Resist (or a better ARP curve for PVE and PVP as well) Which is silly.
DR should matter. It should be hard to fully counter 80% DR. That is a TON of DR..... It should take a considerable investment and "tradeoff" to counter DR.
Things like AC should be more valued... That and Defense are what "separate" the squishy from non squishy classes...
if you were holding me for 3 seconds and i could not do anything... why should it equate to damage then you were a trapper not combat hr ,.,
like i said before i would not mind there being something on all classes feat tree that puts a hard choice on damage vs control / vs control resist resist vs tankness etc .. On the Cw feat tree it forces you to pick single target damage or aoe damage to be buffed and the other nerfed ...
i would not mind see the same thing on tr and hr feat trees to make it fair for them and add flavor
Actually arp pen effectiveness gets reduced by DR, tenacity DR and crit resist as well, so if someone has max tenacity it's even less than 25% effective (See my post for details).
Removing arp resist and making arp 50% effective actually provides less protection than 50% arp resist. Some classes might suffer from this but I'm for it coz people don't freaking die.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Normal DR (DR+AC+ARP/RI all affect this)
Tenacity DR (a special layer that merely cuts all damage to compensate for PVE damage being so high).
Crit Resist should be changes to be a "Severity Modifier" rather than its own layer.... So something LIKE "75% reduction of your crit severity in PVP".
MEANING, only 25% of your severity applies in PVP.
Right now @40% crit resist.
CURRENTLY:
75% severity = only 5% more damage on crits.
100% severity = 20% more damage on crits.
If they did something like 75% OF your crit severity applies in PVP
75% severity = 18.75% more damage
100% severity = 25% more damage
So its a bump to all crit damage, and also removed the "inverse" relationship between RI and Crits due to layering. I agree with this. I do think SE should be a cool finisher and I think that it should get a mechanic LIKE Anvil of Doom - where it deals double damage under an HP treshhold... Likely the same treshhold in which it refills your AP...
Then it could be used very well as a proper finisher
Exactly. The proposed 50% Arpen effectiveness will be a nerf to tank dr-classes like DC, GWF, and OP. It will increase number of deaths. I support this, even though it is a nerf to my class.
Iyon the Dark
i am playing this game since module 2 and i always remember all classes focus to stack hp and deflect what is this all about the damage resistance? thanks.
https://prnt.sc/fovli9 and here with proof the armor penetration is not 100 : 1% for every penetration number after some point https://prnt.sc/fovmc7 here again resist ignore is 46.8% for 5000 penetration.
unlike dr is always 400: 1 for any defence number.
When we say 400:1 in pvp, we are keeping the above simplification and incorporating the ~75% tenacity Arpen resistance that is on live for bis toons. I think this has been stated several times in this thread, so hopefully it is clear by now.
Iyon the Dark
I linked that thread earlier in this thread but I see this is one of the most probably and easiest to do solutions to the pvp problem of gear gap issues in NW....
While we have loadouts that can help us switch the builds and gears, it doesnt change the fact that the enchaments required for both modes are very different, and this could easily push more players to stick with either just PvP or PvE.
I would really love to see more players being able to enjouy both modes and will strongly advocate for xsayajinx's suggestion.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
The OP shield is not a separate layer (feel free to check for yourself) but it was something strongly requested by Paladin players during the last round of adjustments.
The general feeling of paladins commenting was that as it's a 360 degree shield it should be a separate layer but at a much lower value than the GF shield; somewhere around 40-45% DR.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
In my opinion, the real gate for lots of players are SH boons. You simply cant be in a smaller guild and compete in PvP because the 8k offensive stats and defensive stats are creating the huge gaps between players. You can have two players with the exact same gear and the one in a small guild wont have a fair fight against the one in a bigger guild.
The release of Stronghold did some real damage to the PvP community because some pure PvP players didn't want to invest time in so much PvE grinding to level up Strongholds and by not doing that, they couldn't compete on equal ground.
Now you might not be able to simply just deactivate the SH boons in PvP, because some classes depends more on stats than others and that would create new balance issues. The boons do cover up some problems with some classes. But another way to go would be to unlock all SH boons at highest rank in PvP for everyone. This will maintain the current balance and it will make a huge difference in closing the gap between players. Also this would solve problems for PvP players that are in PvE guilds with boons focused on PvE and take the pressure of PvP guilds for doing lots of PvE SH farming that rather drives them away from the game.
Or bring Back diminishing returns like others suggested.
All the campaign boons are not that big of a deal except for a few ones like cold shoulder and endless consumption (that cant be nerfed without hurting GWF).
Other things to consider is potions/foods. I mean why not limit the total amount of pots/foods instead of letting players stack up enough stats from these that adds up to like 10 x rank 12s or so. Or just remove them all together.
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Right now the last changes with piercing etc has not gone live as for as I know and need to be tested.
There is a big issue with the suggestion about arpen and that it would require huge amount of RI making pve players that dont adjust still suffer from same gap and that is if stacking defence or having classes that relay on defence get something for that against low armored classes.
The light armored classes has some built in advantages against heavy armored like cc dodges more deflect etc and if you nullify the benifit from heavy armor with all having high enough RI that defence is useless it will give light armored classes unfair upper hand.
One HUGE factor that as far as I can see have not been tested yet is how much crit severity changes will effect the damage outcome from some classes.
Gwf and and Hr in particular can reach much higher crit severity then others the second will over 200% mark with trance dread so again we need t test these changes with devs before we know exactly the outcome.
What I do know is that if piercing severity hits a 50% resist is that Hr will go trapper and Tr will go full perma/cc with a never ending red smoke cb preventing anything that resembles pvp.
If nothing is done with the cc system as it is and new pve gear will allow recovery stats of 20k+ you will not see 4 Tr/ 10 match domination you will see 5-6 and can as well go afk as no one will be able to fight.
Dailies need to have an idc of at least 1 min for all major game inpacts like exe(maby not after change hard to say) cb etc etc most classes has some that can be abused except maby Pal and Hr....
Break up resist, give lighter armored classes less and heavy armored more would be an easy road to take.
Most games have alot more resist like magic, fire/ice(elemental), poison etc which in turn makes it better when you give different resist to different classes(more magic to cws more damage to tanks etc) but I dont think this is going to happen in NW.
As for now I think we need to wait for testing result to come in something are bound to be broken and some we might find works perfectly fine.
Currently on live. 43% Crit Resist and an attacker with 75% Severity will deal (1.75*(1-43%)) = 99.75% damage of a NON crit (yes less damage).
So you have an issue where crits are not worth it. (btw this doesnt factor in effectiveness - but assumes you are high enough effectiveness to matter). What I mean by this is if your non crits are only 30% effective, your crits are floored at 20% effective, so the closer you get to 20% effective, the MORE damage your crits do in relation to non crits. The higher your effectiveness, the LESS your crits do in relation.
So what should happen is a change. Where crit severity is reduced by 75% in PVP. Based on YOUR severity. This would mean a 75% severity player, a crit would deal 18.75% more damage - regardless of damage resist or effectiveness or ARP values. You do realize, that when everyone has higher ARP = higher effectiveness = crits are WORSE in relation correct? The ARP change does nothing to impact crit damage... unless you took OFF tenacity % down to 40% then crits would deal more, OR stacked more crit severity... But make no mistake, more effectiveness = the less crits matter.
I 100% agree. This is the #1 issue in PVP. PVE players stack crit. So crit resist needs a rework - to not be a double layer of tenacity but merely an adjustment to severity. This lowers the gap.
ARP resist will need to go at a later point when ARP is changed to a 200:1 or 300:1 curve. Making it 100:1 in PVP is just silly as it makes higher DR (tanks classes) take WAY more damage, where as the squishy classes have been given I-frames to counter not having DR, so the "easy ARP returns" would be a buff to low DR targets (who ALREADY got a MAJOR buff with ARP not overpenetrating).
Tenacity needs to be removed altogether on gear and just placed on character sheet.
Those would go a LONG way to fixing the "bridge" although unless they address the massive power creep attained through all the modules via boons, itll never be "in a good spot". Boons create tens of thousands of stat gap between players base. So THIS is where diminishing returns could work in PVP - to reduce the "advantage" of stacking 30k of stat - where a casual player, normaly player, or PVE player might not have the luxury of stacking those high values of PVP stats (another example would be things like HP or Lifesteal - where PVE players dont really stack those stats).
GF is one of the most cc resistant/controlling classes in pvp. Prone, stun, DING, that daily that hits you from a million feet away (sensationalized of course lol)...dead. GF should be able to do a lot of that. Shield bashing, etc is an actually thing from real sword and board fighting. GF are a mix of tank/dps/control. This should be balanced though. I think what you meant is courage breaker, but this is the only way that I know to kill a skilled GF (with a dazing/high recovery/SoD TR). If CB gets changed (as it probably should) then the GF shield/OP tempHP/DC whatever they do to be able to just stand there and laugh at me
Marnival, you're pretty much hitting the nail on the head, it's just that it seems that the DEVs have little resources to take on tenacity/ArP balance/cc/individual class issues.
We need a fund drive..."We'll WASH YOUR CAR, play nekkid matches, pimp out our toons wearing courtesan outfits , HELP SAVE NWO PVP NOW!!!" Good idea?
(Disclaimer: I know that I'm not even close to being "skilled", but I am similar to the majority that play TR in pvp, i.e. mediocre. )
P.S. The majority is what fleshes out this community though, think about the group not just individual. (not directed at you Marnival)
Ed: Any OP ability where the tooltip says "you/party/allies are shielded".
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
a Pve player is getting 100% crit with bonding rune stones ... there are not pets in pvp
the average pve player (without a class mechanic) has 40-60% crit they are not wasting build points on as much crit as you would have us believe
classes that dont need crit/ can t suppress thier crits would not/need to be stacking it anyways
are we not trying to balance pvp based on average player stats and curves to encourage more people providing tenacity is removed it would not be that hard for a pve player to swap around a few pieces .. also given the new 500 item level stuff coming out that can be grinded by pve
we all want new blood to face in pvp just saying i think its all going to balance out also with bracketing you would not be facing such players with bad gear distribution anyways they would be facing their own kind.. isnt the fairest system for pvp for players rankings / brackets to actually not be based on gear or powers but on how they perform with what they have ?
With brackets we wont be stuck with afkers campers, kickers and botters where they can all be happy together in their own pvp hell
@ROYINEVER it appears your posts are being shadow banned no doubt you have positive things to say again lol
do you still think and I quote from you ...
"elites" have some real life issues that they come here and try feel good about them self in pixel game with pixel toons , feeling "important" and "powerfull"
are you trying to get this thread locked to sabotage pvp feedback again *sigh* is that it?