T1 dungeons are Malabog, Valindra, Lostmauth. You cannot run these if you're not level 70.
I lump all the "epic" into t2. Saves on pain and misery.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
@dupeks what was that about the red wolf? That seems to be something that nobody I was running with seemed to know about because I thought the red wolf was just another add.
The game doesn't do a great job introducing this mechanic, but it's an important one. When the boss is in his "mega" invincible mode, the only way to get him out of it is to kill the red wolf when they are really close together. If you kill the wolf when they are far apart he'll continue being invincible and you have to wait for another wolf to spawn.
For what it's worth, new mechanics in CN were introduced much better. But this is an old dungeon so I forgive them.
That said, I find it very suspicious (if not impossible) that a 4k or even 3.5k ilvl player wouldn't know about this mechanic (especially since it's an old dungeon). Unless they literally bought all of their gear with $$$ and blindly assume all of the content in this game can be steamrolled. I guess that wouldn't be too far off, just eGWD and a couple others that pose a challenge haha.
For the record, this is the difference between knowing your class and being pro. Knowing your class just means you know how to fight, being pro means you know how all the bosses fight.
I respectfully but strongly disagree with your characterization. In my opinion:
Knowing your class requires understanding it's strengths, weaknesses, possible builds, and important interactions with party member and enemy mechanics.
Knowing the PvE game content requires understanding the mechanics for various dungeons or trials, the types of enemies, and their attack rotations.
"Being Pro" requires knowing most if not all of the classes and all of the game content in and out (and some might throw in PvP, which is almost an entirely different game altogether)
You certainly don't have to "be a pro" to be effective in a dungeon, but a foundation in PvE game mechanics and your own class mechanics is important. The content is not too challenging, the solution is not to make everything even easier.
EGWD requires more understanding than damage. It becomes easier with practice. Even if we introduce a packed 3k+ party into that dungeon for the first time, there's a good chance they will struggle.
Next, Item level is not everything, especially if you are still relatively new to the game. Do you have your boons? What's your build? Augment?
I've seen 3.5k+ GWF really suck in this game. Random Mythic artifacts that are supposed to be for support classes and Trans Dread.
"As the good archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself." -Danilo Thann[/quote]
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
I find it very suspicious (if not impossible) that a 4k or even 3.5k ilvl player wouldn't know about this mechanic (especially since it's an old dungeon). Unless they literally bought all of their gear with $$$ and blindly assume all of the content in this game can be steamrolled. I guess that wouldn't be too far off, just eGWD and a couple others that pose a challenge haha.
I have 4 Level 70 toons, 2 at 3.3K and I had no idea about the Red Wolf. Admittedly because I haven't run eGWD since Mod 5. Might have to give it a run
I'm in the camp that finds PvE too easy and hopes they introduce harder dungeons. But that means introducing new harder content, not making old content harder or nerfing classes to make the old content harder.
I agree with whoever made reference to the "Have's" and the "Have Not's", and I hope the Dev's keep in mind that the game needs to cater for the masses as well as the 97th percentile players that form the majority of the ppl that post on these forums.
This is a mix between the right build and 'have and have not'.
If you have the right build and know how to play, you can do it premade in a min IL party.
'Have' can compensate for not min maxed builds.
IMO two high IL players with gear and skill can carry the rest in any T2. Thing is, that many players never play with these ppl and think, that they have minmaxed their char, bc they are paingiver in PuG groups.
A friend of mine has a near BIS DC and asked me to run a dungeon with him and a 'hdps' CW, who, in his own opinion, was a seasoned near BIS player. The righteous DC did 3 times the dmg of the CW. My BUFF GF was 3rd in paingiver and not even that far away from the CW.
My GF is an alt with decent gear and build, but he cant compare to really good GFs. I dare to say, that due to the build and the gear I slapped on him, he is still more effective, then 80% of the GFs out there.
I am done. I will not run dungeons anymore until the final boss of every epic dungeon (excluding Kessel's Retreat) is nerfed. If the requirement for a dungeon is 2k iLevel, don't you think a party of 2.5k's should be able to run it? I just tried to run epic Grey Wolf Den with me (a 2.5k GF), a 2.4k DC, and 3 dps that were 3.5k+ (one of them was even 4k) and we failed the final boss. That boss should have been a cake walk with all that dps. And this is not the first time I have failed a dungeon with such spectacular offensive power. The dungeons as a whole are fine, but it's a waste of time to run them until you nerf the end bosses. You want to put in another tier of dungeons in the next module, yet you haven't even fixed the tiers we have. Please fix this before you start losing players.
Find it odd that no one pointed out that the only reason a party like that should fail is if this guy can't tank properly.
DCs are good pretty much independent of ilvl, the DPS is all super overgeared for content to the point that the boss wil drop in a minute or less and their tank probably kept getting squished because he had no idea what he was doing. But sure, blame it on how hard the content is.
I'm not just random newbie, I know how to play and I understand how my skills and stats work. I've seen a few guides and they don't tell me anything I don't already know. The point I am trying to make is that we shouldn't have to run the dungeon perfectly to succeed. I don't even run pubs, I run with my alliance, and we fail half our runs
eGWD is not easy if you're not familiar with some mechanics. Even if you know very well how your class works, you've to rely on some interactions, positioning, timing between your team members. It took a bit for me before I was able to complete eGWD with my group, in particular in the days when MoD 6 was released. eGWD was simply impossible for me and the team I used to play. I don't know how you play it, but sometimes you have to be close to perfect. It could be that you're not ready for it (forget the 2k Il requirement: you should consider it as a gate only): wait a bit, refine your stuff, improve your toon and then try it again later: a self-assessment helps a lot to understand your weak points if any. Pro players can destroy the eGWD boss by using the brute force, but it shouldn't be considered as the normal way to do it. Indeed you need a well equipped group where everyone needs to know what to do. Even eCC can be hard, if you don't know how to approach Blackdagger. Example: do you know that Blackdagger takes (and gives) +100% damages if you open the barrel? This is a tip you can use to develop your own strategy. Nerfing is not the solution: as soon as you - and your guildies - progress with your toons and you find your way, you will be here again complaining that the dungeons are too easy. And I'm sure you will find how to do them.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
I, personally, agree with the OP on epic dungeon difficulty.
In two years, I visited 2 epic dungeons (that's not by accident). The first one long ago, something Valindra from Dread Ring. My all epics 2.5IL ungilded trapper HR needed to be carried from legit channel, as I found. And last weekend Malabog PuG. Malabog was a series of fails, until a 4k GWF joined. My still all epics 2.5IL HR (meanwhile able to solo Big Grins) was second on damage hit parade, the GWF first with 500% more points. Well. Bad party? Maybe.
I guess I won't be visiting any epic dungeons any more. I admit, I don't have a large sample of epic dungeon visits. And usually enjoy some of the scripted events unknown to me on first visit. But I have a strong feeling (and reading the forums to me suggests so, too), enjoying NWO epic dungeons comes down to either big stats or accurately studying classes, compositions and epic dungeon scripts. When what I am looking for is some entertainment with some obstacles not so big to make me tap dance the character progress manufactoring line (typ'n an click'n).
Hmmm. Seems, epic dungeons are just not entertaining to me. No complains. There are other things I enjoy in NWO.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
unknowndramaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 115Arc User
Dungeons are easy whit the right party but..worth playing them?NO!!! I got like 500 chest keys from Vip and i havent use them becose i dont have any motivation to do any of dungeons becose are unrewarding and boring..who want to go tier 2 dungeons like grey wolf den,cragmire crypts,temple of spiders for a piece of salavage armor and few seals!!!not me..only dungeon worth playing is valindra towerand elol for that 0.00001 % on artiftacts or the new CN in rest not worth playing.. The dungeon needs to return like it whas before mod 6 when you needed to play difrent type of dungeons to get armor pieces and when you got the chance to get a piece of armor and sell on AH.. The game now has turned in to a "neverdrop" run on all dungeons and bosses..you might be lucky to get something in 1000 runs..By the way have anyone so the color of a legendary ring?...make a screenshot and post it in forum.. All game has turned in to a slot machine..more lockboxes and cutscenes please less gameplay...
Find it odd that no one pointed out that the only reason a party like that should fail is if this guy can't tank properly.
(or they don't have a clue about the fight mechanics, apparently)
Honestly I still don't know the mechanics for eGWD because in guild runs the tank just needs to hold aggro for a bit and everything melts. That's what should've happened in OP's scenario so I'm assuming he just couldn't tank it.
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drkbodhiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,378Arc User
I am posting this without reading all of the other posts and I don't care if this was covered.
I have duo'd eToS, all the way to Syndryth... on my 4k TR. In guild runs we have taken Orcus down in about 30 seconds. I have watched 3 ranged guildies take Orcus down from 60% health... without a Tank, 2.7k DPS DC, 3.7 CW and a 2.6 buff DC.
Are T2s "unrunnable"? Nope... maybe look at the group, builds and rotations. I actually find them to be too easy even on my 2.5k DPS OP.
FYI... eGWD was the last t2 conquered after Mod 6 was released. They are do able... and iL has VERY little to do with it. Having a build that actually works is more important than iL. 4k with a HAMSTER build, can, and has, be out DPS'd by a 2.5k with an awesome build. The only changes on my journey from 2.5 to 4.1, has been very little DPS and a lot of survivability. The problem with using a cookie cutter build is this... unless you have exactly what they use... it will not work. I spent 50+ hours on my TR build... on the preview server.
So iL... has very little to do with anything, but survivability.
Just my $.02...
Atwil "At" - Tiefling TR / Saardush - Black Dragonborn GWF / White - Tiefling OP
Leadership Council of Civil Anarchy
SYNERGY Alliance
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
For the record, this is the difference between knowing your class and being pro. Knowing your class just means you know how to fight, being pro means you know how all the bosses fight.
Ok, I do want to comment on this in more depth than my mild snark of earlier.
I can understand wanting to initially experience content unspoiled, so that it's surprising and fresh. *But*, if you fail at something repeatedly, what on earth is stopping you from looking up a guide, watching a video, or asking people to explain what you're doing wrong? (And the purpose of this thread appears to have been to throw a snit rather than ask for guidance, though guidance has been offered.)
You are effectively stating that learning mob and boss mechanics should not be expected of players, that this is somehow beyond reasonable. You're not "pro"? The only thing stopping you from learning how to be "pro" by your own definition is your conception that you shouldn't have to, for some reason.
Kill or disable the healers, break the immunity phase, evade the instant death attack or physical hazards....
When these types of strategies are not necessary because brute force gets the job done just fine, the game suffers.
mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
https://postimg.org/image/uhfo6a7bb/ CRyptic give hints as you can see but who reads the lore? lf for more gray wolf dens and ecc type dungeons and rewarding ofcourse.
I am posting this without reading all of the other posts and I don't care if this was covered.
I have duo'd eToS, all the way to Syndryth... on my 4k TR. In guild runs we have taken Orcus down in about 30 seconds. I have watched 3 ranged guildies take Orcus down from 60% health... without a Tank, 2.7k DPS DC, 3.7 CW and a 2.6 buff DC.
Are T2s "unrunnable"? Nope... maybe look at the group, builds and rotations. I actually find them to be too easy even on my 2.5k DPS OP.
FYI... eGWD was the last t2 conquered after Mod 6 was released. They are do able... and iL has VERY little to do with it. Having a build that actually works is more important than iL. 4k with a **** build, can, and has, be out DPS'd by a 2.5k with an awesome build. The only changes on my journey from 2.5 to 4.1, has been very little DPS and a lot of survivability. The problem with using a cookie cutter build is this... unless you have exactly what they use... it will not work. I spent 50+ hours on my TR build... on the preview server.
So iL... has very little to do with anything, but survivability.
Just my $.02...
This only really applies in dying games like Neverwinter. In games that have active player populations every class has a guide like the one Sharpedge wrote for CWs so it gets to the point where you're just re-doing work someone else has already done.
The ilvl thing is nonsense and you know it. The only reason it's remotely true is because there's so much that you can invest in that has no effect on your ilvl but significantly increase performance.
IMO, the OP is asking for dungeons that even beginners can sleep walk through. The OP is not asking for help/guidance (some great advice given from the community). Posters like this should be flamed and ignored. The content is hard enough for beginners and extremely easy for 85% of the PVE population who have had 3 years of practice with this content to make it a cake walk. I am hopeful (fingers crossed) that the "new" (hopefully not recycled) T3 dungeon requires the majority here to use all the power/boons/ect. that have been piled upon our toons to it's fullest. Make it hard, make us work for it!
IMO, the OP is asking for dungeons that even beginners can sleep walk through. The OP is not asking for help/guidance (some great advice given from the community). Posters like this should be flamed and ignored. The content is hard enough for beginners and extremely easy for 85% of the PVE population who have had 3 years of practice with this content to make it a cake walk. I am hopeful (fingers crossed) that the "new" (hopefully not recycled) T3 dungeon requires the majority here to use all the power/boons/ect. that have been piled upon our toons to it's fullest. Make it hard, make us work for it!
Strum skirted around the idea of "new" dungeons during the livestream and only said that there's a new tier. Assuming that means recycled dungeons but it could just be him toeing the line because of an NDA.
lol to the guys that saied content is too easy for a new level 70 player. The Op makes some points.
I took a break from the forums since the things are talked are no interesting to me and do not affect me ,but the replies in this thread are laughable and ridiculous.Also soooo may lies and liars here.Also half truths ,hidden factors from the equation of the problem. In nearly of every post that scorns the op there is some dubious ,false or incomplete statement.
And because in reality, I did ECC legit,during arp bug ,with no pally of any path on team,on 3rd or 4th day of hitting level70, seeing people here that say did it while 99% of them just glitched the dungeon ,and even worst come here and play superior,it annoys me.These in general.
I am adamant againt any elitism attitude and arrogance,and this thread is full of it.
Some observations more spesific.
--------------------------------------------
"my base defense is 22k , it goes up to 28k with sudden defense + rising + some other procs, I then hit paladin sigal for 15% more dr, then ITF. "
How much is your defense with out the Holy Crusaders boon? Do you asked the OP if he has access to 16k stats for free as you have? Do you think all he players run in maxed near max guild boons as you? @silverkelt
"Im using two dusk + two dragonflight as armor" 80% of players do not have access to dragonflight armor and dusk is only obtainable through tradebar store
"Popular to contrary belief, we were smashing these things , with no bondings at all + arp bug."
Do you "smashing" eCC with out Paladins during arp bug? You meaning with out jumping through the nets,covering in barels or going extreme left and then jump in the attic..right? Nothing personal @silverkelt you just mentioned some things.You know i like you
"I have videos of all the T2s done, in a 2k ilvl team, WHEN THE ARP BUG WAS PRESENT without bonding stones and without a paladin. " @thefabricant
Nice!!i would like to see your video of doing Ecc during arp bug with out paladins at 2k Il ,as you just stated! the video yuo posted with Isaac is after arp bug fix (15th sept).Also in that video you do not say us how many hours and tries you were there. Can you post please? i am waiting....Pleae post that video ..you did it ..RIGHT?You just claimed to be.I wait eagerly
"Strongholds spends up to 8k defense or power to a player. That´s about 11 rank 12 enchants." @schietindebux
+1 .We agree here. 11 rank12 enchants hidden from Il.if they would be added.that would be....800-900 IL. Ofcourse nobody mentions this . Not to mention the companions ,,the mounts and the gear that they have.Add more than 1000IL stats.yeah sure the guys are just 2k Il..lol
"So join a guild" .None higher guild will take him in first phase cause he is low Il.You know that.
"The exploiters and whales cried for nerf so long and hard" @kalindra +1.Actually some of them,are here on these forums ,few even on this thread.Now they think the content too easy.1 1/2 year ago of course what they were writing is another story.
"That said, I think your post elicited a lot of responses because it touches on a very sensitive topic with a lot of the seasoned PvE crowd. This content is both overwhelming / difficult to learn for new folks while seasoned players feel it's been trivialized into a fine powder with few challenges to be found in the end-game. " @dupeks
+1000!!!
"and as a tank I have no problem holding aggro, but the bosses in t2 dungeons can kill me in 3 hits, 5 with my shield up. That's with my build being more defense than anything. Heals from my equipment or from a healer make me last longer but even then there is a limit. Against the boss in gwd I can last for 15-20 minutes before I fall and the DPS you need to kill him in that time is easy to much."
@koneko5678 You seem a good tank to me if you can stay 15 minutes alive in EGWD.Contrary to the others i think ,it is nbot your fault but tactics and Dc/Buffer problem.Also DPS can be lacking.
----------------------------
Koneko,ignore the haters and the elitists here.Strip them of the Sh boons ,their mounts and their -secretly-used buff combos,the broken copy cat builds, and half of these guys could not compete grimak in sharandar.HAMSTER poor hand -eye coordination and reflexes. (The times i needed to ressurect a DC alt of a re known forumer of a famous-infamous guild in one eDemo run,is beyond counting) In mod10 most of them will return to "4k Il Cw-GWF-etc looking for Gnarlroot ,pls" :P :P \o/ /o\
Yeah I watched the live stream and he was vague on most every answer. I would like to see new content but I am ok (getting use to...) with just adding harder tier to exsisting content (which should have been in game eons ago).
my base defense is 22k , it goes up to 28k with sudden defense + rising + some other procs, I then hit paladin sigal for 15% more dr, then ITF. "
How much is your defense with out the Holy Crusaders boon? Do you asked the OP if he has access to 16k stats for free as you have? Do you think all he players run in maxed near max guild boons as you?
"Im using two dusk + two dragonflight as armor" 80% of players do not have access to dragonflight armor and dusk is only obtainable through tradebar store
"Popular to contrary belief, we were smashing these things , with no bondings at all + arp bug."
Do you "smashing" eCC with out Paladins during arp bug? You meaning with out jumping through the nets,covering in barels or going extreme left and then jump in the attic..right? Nothing personal @silverkelt you just mentioned some things.You know i like you
A 2.5k GF will have around 10,000 defense without an augment if they've done their boons (and all the defense boons are easy to get so no excuse there). If they've got an augment then you're looking at 14,000. This is assuming green artifact equipment, T1 armor, rank 7 enchants, epic artifacts etc. So the only really significant difference would be the guild boon and you could get into a guild with rank 4 boons pretty easily so even there you're only looking at around 4800k def which is all of a 12% difference. Just having a DC use AS will result a larger difference. I've been in similar runs with undergeared GFs from alliance guilds and they've done fine.
and as a tank I have no problem holding aggro, but the bosses in t2 dungeons can kill me in 3 hits, 5 with my shield up. That's with my build being more defense than anything. Heals from my equipment or from a healer make me last longer but even then there is a limit. Against the boss in gwd I can last for 15-20 minutes before I fall and the DPS you need to kill him in that time is easy to much."
koneko5678
You seem a good tank to me if you can stay 15 minutes alive in EGWD.Contrary to the others i think ,it is nbot your fault but tactics and Dc/Buffer problem.Also DPS can be lacking.
Seriously? Do you really think three 3.5k DPS and a DC would take fifteen minutes to take down a T2 boss?
Not sure we should be so quick to criticise the OP's tanking, what if the DC isn't supporting the tank with heals etc.
That's the thing, the way most people play DC should be more than sufficient if the tank has a clue. I mean ffs this guy is talking about heals from his equipment when all of a GF's heals should be coming from Fighter's recovery, boons, and maybe a bit from crushing surge.
All i see in this thread is people trying to convince OP that he is a horrible player
It's simplier: the OP is asking to nerf the dungeons. Imo the answer is no at the moment because it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of a game which is not weighted and designed to scale along 3 dimensions: - IL - builds and equipment - interactions (i.e. group composition)
I'm reading many arguments where the 3 things are confused and mixed up. Dungeons are sorted by IL (and this is the source of many misunderstandings), players lfg use IL as a requirement to arrange a group, but if you know how to take advantage of the builds and interactions, then IL is not so relevant. The reality is that builds & interactions - and a bit of experience - make the real difference. If you have a problem to complete a dungeon nowadays, I can only suggest to review/improve your build, check your party composition and try to play with experienced players asking questions...and that's it. With the alliance system, many players and small guilds have access to the upgraded markets, can run DF more efficiently and many other opportunities. As an example, I'm in a lvl 14 guild, we are open to recruit fresh 70 players but then it's up to them to learn and improve. The problem is that there are so few new players now the even high rank guilds are reducing the requirements to enter.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
All i see in this thread is people trying to convince OP that he is a horrible player
It's simplier: the OP is asking to nerf the dungeons. Imo the answer is no at the moment because it doesn't solve the fundamental problem of a game which is not weighted and designed to scale along 3 dimensions: - IL - builds and equipment - interactions (i.e. group composition)
I'm reading many arguments where the 3 things are confused and mixed up. Dungeons are sorted by IL (and this is the source of many misunderstandings), players lfg use IL as a requirement to arrange a group, but if you know how to take advantage of the builds and interactions, then IL is not so relevant. The reality is that builds & interactions - and a bit of experience - make the real difference. If you have a problem to complete a dungeon nowadays, I can only suggest to review/improve your build, check your party composition and try to play with experienced players asking questions...and that's it. With the alliance system, many players and small guilds have access to the upgraded market, can run DF more efficiently and many other opportunities. As an example, I'm in a lvl 14 guild, we are open to recruit fresh 70 players but then it's up to them to learn and improve. The problem is that there are so few new players now the even high rank guilds are lowering the requirements to enter.
And that is totally fine ! I have no problem with that!
" If you have a problem to complete a dungeon nowadays, I can only suggest to review/improve your build, check your party composition and try to play with experienced players asking questions...and that's it. "
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
My complain is that people are being overly angry , rude and really seriously acting like little kids , when what OP said was IL for this particular dungeon is not scaled with IL requirements for it. He was not talking about boons, sh boons, companion boons, mount bonuses or etc. The requirement does not states you need any of the stuff you should have.
OP said was IL for this particular dungeon is not scaled with IL requirements for it. He was not talking about boons, sh boons, companion boons, mount bonuses or etc. The requirement does not states you need any of the stuff you should have.
you're right but at the same time this is the source of the confusion. Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements, but to some extent you can overcome the problem taking into account the other two dimensions: builds and interactions. They are not linked to the IL. The DC is a clear example of this: it's very difficult to evaluate such a class by IL only, there are no efficient indicators. Dps?..uhm..not sure, heals? not enough... efficiency in creating interesting interactions regardless the IL? That would be nice, but there's nothing to measure it directly. Every 2k DC with AS and HG can create an interaction with ITF and the result is always powerful. Is it enough to finish eGWD? Cannot tell..it depends on many other variables, but at least you know where to focus more to progress, develop your own playstyle and maybe try it later.
Post edited by rapo973 on
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
OP said was IL for this particular dungeon is not scaled with IL requirements for it. He was not talking about boons, sh boons, companion boons, mount bonuses or etc. The requirement does not states you need any of the stuff you should have.
you're right but at the same time this is the source of the confusion. Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements, but to some extent you can overcome the problem taking into account the other two dimensions: builds and interactions. They are not linked to the IL. The DC is a clear example of this: it's very difficult to evaluate such a class, there are no efficient indicators. Dps?..uhm..not sure, heals? not enough... efficiency in creating interesting interactions regardless the IL? That would be nice, but there's nothing to measure it directly. Every 2k DC with AS and HG can create an interaction with ITF and the results is always powerful. Is it enough to finish eGWD? Cannot tell..it depends on many other variables, but at least you know where to focus more to progress and develop your own playstyle.
That is true. As i do main a DC i do know what you are talking about. XD I am not denying the fact people need to learn how to do things. But not all people want to run a certain build or have certain skills. Yet it should not be forbidden for them to run things ot finish things just like everyone else, just cos they would like to use unique play-styles.
I for example instead of HG prefer AA. It is my personal choice. Does it effect the party and the outcome of the dungeons? Certainly. Is it always positive ? No it is not. Do people adjust to my play style when i do not feel like running the same thing over and over again? Yes they do. I was lucky enough to find an amazing guild who do not mind me changing encounters / at will's / daily's rotation every now and then.
It can be negative as well. But no one can force me to use something if i do not want to use it.
But the topic was not overcoming the problem of bad IL requirements. He merely stated Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements. He did not say anything wrong. The requirement for somethings should be higher or maybe lower . Yes his party had a 3.5 DC and could not finish gwd.
Is it his fault? We do not know. We where not there. Is it his party's fault in the way of approaching this dungeon ? Again, we do not know, we where not a part of that party.
So going for OP like hell hounds is ridiculous to me. While boosting how " i can do it " and " you suck " , is even worse.
. But the topic was not overcoming the problem of bad IL requirements. He merely stated Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements. He did not say anything wrong. The requirement for somethings should be higher or maybe lower .
I would say lower A 2k team at eGWD is a hard task, but the 2k gate is low enough for other purposes, like carrying a low IL guildie in a pro group and give the chance to find a piece of a gear set and improve a bit his/her life. I use this approach when I want to improve my alts. I would like to have edemo at 2k so it would be easier to take the twisted weapon set. There are pro and cons...like everything in this life: if there is a threat, try to transform it in an opportunty when possible.
Oltreverso guild leader Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
. But the topic was not overcoming the problem of bad IL requirements. He merely stated Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements. He did not say anything wrong. The requirement for somethings should be higher or maybe lower .
I would say lower A 2k team at eGWD is hard task, but the 2k gate is low enough for other purposes, like carrying a low IL guildie in a pro group and give the chance to find a piece of a gear set and improve a bit his/her life. I use this approach when I want to improve my alts. I would like to have edemo at 2k so it would be easier to take the twisted weapon set. There are pro and cons...like everything in this life: if there is a threat, try to transform it in an opportunity when possible.
I am not competent enough to discuss the scaling. To me , right now, with 3.5 DC and guildies i run with, everything seems easy. However i am not saying it is....i still remember the dreadful way we did dungeons and the amount of fails we did at first On an improvement of alts subject , that i would agree with as well. My guild is using the same approach of leveling, with all of our little guildies to get them up. It is kind of a standard procedure in order to get them to see the dungeons and level them up , collecting gear from T1 to T2 then protector seals . Same approach we use for dragonflight gear and doing dragons with the little ones, without any problems.. But in honesty i have all the amazing guild members who are up there, to thank to. Without them and the effort we all are putting in running stuff and the low level people, it would not be possible to achieve such things so easily.
And on a side note : OP you can join our guild . Guild name is NeverGuild. We ll welcome you in, if you need a guild.
To continue , i expected much more from you, skilled, pro, i can solo , my build is awesome and i am awesome players. I see you all , every day here, teaching new people about proper ways of doing dungeons, watching topics and new builds, reporting bugs and suggesting brilliant ideas.
And usually you guys are decent human beings. respectable and i do not mind learning from you guys.
But this is just disgusting. Really.
The thing you're missing here is that OP is saying that with a 2.4k DC and three 3.5k-4k DPS, he could not finish the dungeon and that because of that dungeons are unplayable. He's running a party where he has literally said he is expecting to be carried and he weaves this story of him tanking for fifteen minutes with mechanics that don't really allow a GF to do that (especially given that he's said that he dies in five hits with his guard up). Then he blames it on DPS who at 3.5k-4k have so much in the way of excess stats that it's ridiculous to imply that they'd take fifteen minutes.
OP didn't just say that OMG DUNGEONS CAN'T BE BEAT AT 2k. He said that even with characters far past the 2k ilvl minimum that dungeons are too difficult. This just isn't true and his whole story is pretty hard to believe.
I mean the only thing that would make it even more ridiculous is saying one of the DPS was a warlock.
All i see in this thread is people trying to convince OP that he is a horrible player cos he can not complete a dungeon that needs a bit more of everything then an average T2
I don't think the OP is that horrible, I think the people he's running with are. The good players roflstomped the content in Mod 6 when the armpen bug was still there with no guild boons and no nothing. Most of my running buddies and officers were around the 2.5k - 3k mark and we did just fine. So yes, someone needs to learn how to play, whether it's the OP or the pugs he's running with. Join a good guild, find good running mates, get that tight knit group to run content with and learn from and you'll be fine. Nobody willing to teach you is one thing, you refusing to learn is another, I don't know which one is the case (could be none at all and you're actually excellent and everybody else sucks), but if you're the type to refuse to learn and listen to more experienced players and then complain about not succeeding give up and play cards/Farmville.
Comments
For what it's worth, new mechanics in CN were introduced much better. But this is an old dungeon so I forgive them.
That said, I find it very suspicious (if not impossible) that a 4k or even 3.5k ilvl player wouldn't know about this mechanic (especially since it's an old dungeon). Unless they literally bought all of their gear with $$$ and blindly assume all of the content in this game can be steamrolled. I guess that wouldn't be too far off, just eGWD and a couple others that pose a challenge haha. I respectfully but strongly disagree with your characterization. In my opinion:
Knowing your class requires understanding it's strengths, weaknesses, possible builds, and important interactions with party member and enemy mechanics.
Knowing the PvE game content requires understanding the mechanics for various dungeons or trials, the types of enemies, and their attack rotations.
"Being Pro" requires knowing most if not all of the classes and all of the game content in and out (and some might throw in PvP, which is almost an entirely different game altogether)
You certainly don't have to "be a pro" to be effective in a dungeon, but a foundation in PvE game mechanics and your own class mechanics is important. The content is not too challenging, the solution is not to make everything even easier.
Next, Item level is not everything, especially if you are still relatively new to the game. Do you have your boons? What's your build? Augment?
I've seen 3.5k+ GWF really suck in this game. Random Mythic artifacts that are supposed to be for support classes and Trans Dread.
I'm in the camp that finds PvE too easy and hopes they introduce harder dungeons. But that means introducing new harder content, not making old content harder or nerfing classes to make the old content harder.
I agree with whoever made reference to the "Have's" and the "Have Not's", and I hope the Dev's keep in mind that the game needs to cater for the masses as well as the 97th percentile players that form the majority of the ppl that post on these forums.
If you have the right build and know how to play, you can do it premade in a min IL party.
'Have' can compensate for not min maxed builds.
IMO two high IL players with gear and skill can carry the rest in any T2. Thing is, that many players never play with these ppl and think, that they have minmaxed their char, bc they are paingiver in PuG groups.
A friend of mine has a near BIS DC and asked me to run a dungeon with him and a 'hdps' CW, who, in his own opinion, was a seasoned near BIS player. The righteous DC did 3 times the dmg of the CW. My BUFF GF was 3rd in paingiver and not even that far away from the CW.
My GF is an alt with decent gear and build, but he cant compare to really good GFs. I dare to say, that due to the build and the gear I slapped on him, he is still more effective, then 80% of the GFs out there.
DCs are good pretty much independent of ilvl, the DPS is all super overgeared for content to the point that the boss wil drop in a minute or less and their tank probably kept getting squished because he had no idea what he was doing. But sure, blame it on how hard the content is.
I don't know how you play it, but sometimes you have to be close to perfect. It could be that you're not ready for it (forget the 2k Il requirement: you should consider it as a gate only): wait a bit, refine your stuff, improve your toon and then try it again later: a self-assessment helps a lot to understand your weak points if any.
Pro players can destroy the eGWD boss by using the brute force, but it shouldn't be considered as the normal way to do it.
Indeed you need a well equipped group where everyone needs to know what to do. Even eCC can be hard, if you don't know how to approach Blackdagger.
Example: do you know that Blackdagger takes (and gives) +100% damages if you open the barrel? This is a tip you can use to develop your own strategy.
Nerfing is not the solution: as soon as you - and your guildies - progress with your toons and you find your way, you will be here again complaining that the dungeons are too easy.
And I'm sure you will find how to do them.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
In two years, I visited 2 epic dungeons (that's not by accident). The first one long ago, something Valindra from Dread Ring. My all epics 2.5IL ungilded trapper HR needed to be carried from legit channel, as I found. And last weekend Malabog PuG. Malabog was a series of fails, until a 4k GWF joined. My still all epics 2.5IL HR (meanwhile able to solo Big Grins) was second on damage hit parade, the GWF first with 500% more points. Well. Bad party? Maybe.
I guess I won't be visiting any epic dungeons any more. I admit, I don't have a large sample of epic dungeon visits. And usually enjoy some of the scripted events unknown to me on first visit. But I have a strong feeling (and reading the forums to me suggests so, too), enjoying NWO epic dungeons comes down to either big stats or accurately studying classes, compositions and epic dungeon scripts. When what I am looking for is some entertainment with some obstacles not so big to make me tap dance the character progress manufactoring line (typ'n an click'n).
Hmmm. Seems, epic dungeons are just not entertaining to me. No complains. There are other things I enjoy in NWO.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I got like 500 chest keys from Vip and i havent use them becose i dont have any motivation to do any of dungeons becose are unrewarding and boring..who want to go tier 2 dungeons like grey wolf den,cragmire crypts,temple of spiders for a piece of salavage armor and few seals!!!not me..only dungeon worth playing is valindra towerand elol for that 0.00001 % on artiftacts
or the new CN in rest not worth playing..
The dungeon needs to return like it whas before mod 6 when you needed to play difrent type of dungeons to get armor pieces and when you got the chance to get a piece of armor and sell on AH..
The game now has turned in to a "neverdrop" run on all dungeons and bosses..you might be lucky to get something in 1000 runs..By the way have anyone so the color of a legendary ring?...make a screenshot and post it in forum..
All game has turned in to a slot machine..more lockboxes and cutscenes please less gameplay...
I have duo'd eToS, all the way to Syndryth... on my 4k TR. In guild runs we have taken Orcus down in about 30 seconds. I have watched 3 ranged guildies take Orcus down from 60% health... without a Tank, 2.7k DPS DC, 3.7 CW and a 2.6 buff DC.
Are T2s "unrunnable"? Nope... maybe look at the group, builds and rotations. I actually find them to be too easy even on my 2.5k DPS OP.
FYI... eGWD was the last t2 conquered after Mod 6 was released. They are do able... and iL has VERY little to do with it. Having a build that actually works is more important than iL. 4k with a HAMSTER build, can, and has, be out DPS'd by a 2.5k with an awesome build. The only changes on my journey from 2.5 to 4.1, has been very little DPS and a lot of survivability. The problem with using a cookie cutter build is this... unless you have exactly what they use... it will not work. I spent 50+ hours on my TR build... on the preview server.
So iL... has very little to do with anything, but survivability.
Just my $.02...
I can understand wanting to initially experience content unspoiled, so that it's surprising and fresh. *But*, if you fail at something repeatedly, what on earth is stopping you from looking up a guide, watching a video, or asking people to explain what you're doing wrong? (And the purpose of this thread appears to have been to throw a snit rather than ask for guidance, though guidance has been offered.)
You are effectively stating that learning mob and boss mechanics should not be expected of players, that this is somehow beyond reasonable. You're not "pro"? The only thing stopping you from learning how to be "pro" by your own definition is your conception that you shouldn't have to, for some reason.
Kill or disable the healers, break the immunity phase, evade the instant death attack or physical hazards....
When these types of strategies are not necessary because brute force gets the job done just fine, the game suffers.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The ilvl thing is nonsense and you know it. The only reason it's remotely true is because there's so much that you can invest in that has no effect on your ilvl but significantly increase performance.
The Op makes some points.
I took a break from the forums since the things are talked are no interesting to me and do not affect me ,but the replies in this thread are laughable and ridiculous.Also soooo may lies and liars here.Also half truths ,hidden factors from the equation of the problem.
In nearly of every post that scorns the op there is some dubious ,false or incomplete statement.
And because in reality, I did ECC legit,during arp bug ,with no pally of any path on team,on 3rd or 4th day of hitting level70, seeing people here that say did it while 99% of them just glitched the dungeon ,and even worst come here and play superior,it annoys me.These in general.
I am adamant againt any elitism attitude and arrogance,and this thread is full of it.
Some observations more spesific.
--------------------------------------------
"my base defense is 22k , it goes up to 28k with sudden defense + rising + some other procs, I then hit paladin sigal for 15% more dr, then ITF. "
How much is your defense with out the Holy Crusaders boon? Do you asked the OP if he has access to 16k stats for free as you have?
Do you think all he players run in maxed near max guild boons as you? @silverkelt
"Im using two dusk + two dragonflight as armor"
80% of players do not have access to dragonflight armor and dusk is only obtainable through tradebar store
"Popular to contrary belief, we were smashing these things , with no bondings at all + arp bug."
Do you "smashing" eCC with out Paladins during arp bug? You meaning with out jumping through the nets,covering in barels or going extreme left and then jump in the attic..right?
"I have videos of all the T2s done, in a 2k ilvl team, WHEN THE ARP BUG WAS PRESENT without bonding stones and without a paladin. " @thefabricant
Nice!!i would like to see your video of doing Ecc during arp bug with out paladins at 2k Il ,as you just stated!
the video yuo posted with Isaac is after arp bug fix (15th sept).Also in that video you do not say us how many hours and tries you were there.
Can you post please? i am waiting....Pleae post that video ..you did it ..RIGHT?You just claimed to be.I wait eagerly
"Strongholds spends up to 8k defense or power to a player. That´s about 11 rank 12 enchants."
@schietindebux
+1 .We agree here. 11 rank12 enchants hidden from Il.if they would be added.that would be....800-900 IL.
Ofcourse nobody mentions this .
Not to mention the companions ,,the mounts and the gear that they have.Add more than 1000IL stats.yeah sure the guys are just 2k Il..lol
"So join a guild" .None higher guild will take him in first phase cause he is low Il.You know that.
"The exploiters and whales cried for nerf so long and hard" @kalindra
+1.Actually some of them,are here on these forums ,few even on this thread.Now they think the content too easy.1 1/2 year ago of course what they were writing is another story.
"That said, I think your post elicited a lot of responses because it touches on a very sensitive topic with a lot of the seasoned PvE crowd. This content is both overwhelming / difficult to learn for new folks while seasoned players feel it's been trivialized into a fine powder with few challenges to be found in the end-game. " @dupeks
+1000!!!
"and as a tank I have no problem holding aggro, but the bosses in t2 dungeons can kill me in 3 hits, 5 with my shield up. That's with my build being more defense than anything. Heals from my equipment or from a healer make me last longer but even then there is a limit. Against the boss in gwd I can last for 15-20 minutes before I fall and the DPS you need to kill him in that time is easy to much."
@koneko5678
You seem a good tank to me if you can stay 15 minutes alive in EGWD.Contrary to the others i think ,it is nbot your fault but tactics and Dc/Buffer problem.Also DPS can be lacking.
----------------------------
Koneko,ignore the haters and the elitists here.Strip them of the Sh boons ,their mounts and their -secretly-used buff combos,the broken copy cat builds, and half of these guys could not compete grimak in sharandar.HAMSTER poor hand -eye coordination and reflexes.
(The times i needed to ressurect a DC alt of a re known forumer of a famous-infamous guild in one eDemo run,is beyond counting)
In mod10 most of them will return to "4k Il Cw-GWF-etc looking for Gnarlroot ,pls" :P :P \o/ /o\
For any advice join the Gf channel http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1210494/gf-channel
kemi is there,futmashroom is there and others.if they are online they can give any advice they are good guys and GFs.
This isn't true. There are a lot of relatively high ranked guilds with low or no ilvl requirements. Seriously? Do you really think three 3.5k DPS and a DC would take fifteen minutes to take down a T2 boss?
- IL
- builds and equipment
- interactions (i.e. group composition)
I'm reading many arguments where the 3 things are confused and mixed up. Dungeons are sorted by IL (and this is the source of many misunderstandings), players lfg use IL as a requirement to arrange a group, but if you know how to take advantage of the builds and interactions, then IL is not so relevant.
The reality is that builds & interactions - and a bit of experience - make the real difference.
If you have a problem to complete a dungeon nowadays, I can only suggest to review/improve your build, check your party composition and try to play with experienced players asking questions...and that's it.
With the alliance system, many players and small guilds have access to the upgraded markets, can run DF more efficiently and many other opportunities.
As an example, I'm in a lvl 14 guild, we are open to recruit fresh 70 players but then it's up to them to learn and improve. The problem is that there are so few new players now the even high rank guilds are reducing the requirements to enter.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
" If you have a problem to complete a dungeon nowadays, I can only suggest to review/improve your build, check your party composition and try to play with experienced players asking questions...and that's it. "
I wholeheartedly agree with that.
My complain is that people are being overly angry , rude and really seriously acting like little kids , when what OP said was IL for this particular dungeon is not scaled with IL requirements for it.
He was not talking about boons, sh boons, companion boons, mount bonuses or etc.
The requirement does not states you need any of the stuff you should have.
Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements, but to some extent you can overcome the problem taking into account the other two dimensions: builds and interactions. They are not linked to the IL.
The DC is a clear example of this: it's very difficult to evaluate such a class by IL only, there are no efficient indicators. Dps?..uhm..not sure, heals? not enough... efficiency in creating interesting interactions regardless the IL? That would be nice, but there's nothing to measure it directly. Every 2k DC with AS and HG can create an interaction with ITF and the result is always powerful. Is it enough to finish eGWD? Cannot tell..it depends on many other variables, but at least you know where to focus more to progress, develop your own playstyle and maybe try it later.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
As i do main a DC i do know what you are talking about. XD
I am not denying the fact people need to learn how to do things.
But not all people want to run a certain build or have certain skills. Yet it should not be forbidden for them to run things ot finish things just like everyone else, just cos they would like to use unique play-styles.
I for example instead of HG prefer AA. It is my personal choice.
Does it effect the party and the outcome of the dungeons? Certainly. Is it always positive ? No it is not. Do people adjust to my play style when i do not feel like running the same thing over and over again? Yes they do. I was lucky enough to find an amazing guild who do not mind me changing encounters / at will's / daily's rotation every now and then.
It can be negative as well. But no one can force me to use something if i do not want to use it.
But the topic was not overcoming the problem of bad IL requirements.
He merely stated Dungeons are not scaled with IL requirements.
He did not say anything wrong. The requirement for somethings should be higher or maybe lower .
Yes his party had a 3.5 DC and could not finish gwd.
Is it his fault? We do not know. We where not there.
Is it his party's fault in the way of approaching this dungeon ?
Again, we do not know, we where not a part of that party.
So going for OP like hell hounds is ridiculous to me. While boosting how " i can do it " and " you suck " , is even worse.
There are pro and cons...like everything in this life: if there is a threat, try to transform it in an opportunty when possible.
Oltreverso guild leader
Maga Othelma - DC | Svalvolo - SW | Dente Avvelenato- GWF
On an improvement of alts subject , that i would agree with as well. My guild is using the same approach of leveling, with all of our little guildies to get them up. It is kind of a standard procedure in order to get them to see the dungeons and level them up , collecting gear from T1 to T2 then protector seals . Same approach we use for dragonflight gear and doing dragons with the little ones, without any problems..
But in honesty i have all the amazing guild members who are up there, to thank to. Without them and the effort we all are putting in running stuff and the low level people, it would not be possible to achieve such things so easily.
And on a side note : OP you can join our guild . Guild name is NeverGuild. We ll welcome you in, if you need a guild.
OP didn't just say that OMG DUNGEONS CAN'T BE BEAT AT 2k. He said that even with characters far past the 2k ilvl minimum that dungeons are too difficult. This just isn't true and his whole story is pretty hard to believe.
I mean the only thing that would make it even more ridiculous is saying one of the DPS was a warlock.
The Holy Crusaders guild leader ♚ Mod 10 PVE Destroyer GWF guide ♚ Founding member of the Relentless Alliance