Dungeons are unrunnable

archangelzorak01

rinat114 said:

araneax said:

All i see in this thread is people trying to convince OP that he is a horrible player cos he can not complete a dungeon that needs a bit more of everything then an average T2

I don't think the OP is that horrible, I think the people he's running with are. The good players roflstomped the content in Mod 6 when the armpen bug was very present with no guild boons and no nothing. Most of my running buddies and officers were around the 2.5k - 3k mark, so yes, someone needs to learn how to play, whether it's the OP or the pugs he's running with. Join a good guild, find good running mates, get that tight knit group to run content with and learn from and you'll be fine. Nobody willing to teach him is one thing, him refusing to learn is another, I don't know which one is the case, but if you're the type to refuse to learn and listen to more experienced players and then complain about not succeeding give up and play cards/Farmville.

Do you have any 8's?

abrams121

I find that it makes the dungeons a lot easier if you yell MLG repeatedly into your headset while fighting. It really calms the other players and reassures them that they are playing with a real pro.

klangeddin

This thread highlights a few issues:

1 - NO MIDDLE GROUND
In every sense of the word, this game seems to be polarized by extremes. The content that comes before epic dungeon is so easy you could do it with your eyes closed, then you jump into the "real deal" and you get stomped because there's a spike up in difficulty (no matter how easy you find them, the difference between epic dungeons and pre-epic dungeons is undeniable). There's a lack of difficuly progression or content that you could use as a stepping stone from pre-epic to epic.
Another aspect of the lack of middle ground is the player dispairity between the haves and the havenots, the gulf is so large that the perceived difficulty drastically changes from "impossible" to "this is a joke". This problem has pretty much killed off PvP already, hopefully it won't become so bad to kill the game entirely.

2 - MISLEADING MECHANICS
Talking about item level here. It's worse than the old Gear Score. It doesn't take account of boons and companions, these two things can put a whole universe apart from two characters with the same item level. A 2k without boons and with a white companion is nothing compared to a 2k with full boons (including guild boons) and some legendary companion with bonding runestones.
As if this wasn't bad enough, not all pieces of gear have the same Item Level / Stats ratio, artifacts are the biggest example of this. So a player with 2k IL may have much better gear than another player with 2k IL, even if they have same boons and companions. Note that this is not counting the distribution of stats, just their amount only. So, it applies even if the distribution of stats is the same (although this scenario is very unlikely to happen).
It's clear that another mechanic should be used. I cannot, for the life of me, understand why they bothered to change Gear Score if they had to replace with a far worse indicator.

Potential solutions:

1) New power indicator that takes account of boons, companions AND overall dungeon experience (ie, how many dungeons have you successfully completed? If many, then you must be expert and know the fights, no?).

2) Reducing the gulf between new players and veterans. The old campaigns should take a much shorter time to complete (you can't expect a new player to be waiting weeks before setting foot in dungeons because he has no boons, of course he's gonna jump in, get roflstomped and be discouraged.) and the guild boons should be nerfed down (yeah, I know, impopular, but they are currently sick). Also bonding runestone and companion's impact should be nerfed down as well.

rapo973

klangeddin said:

2) Reducing the gulf between new players and veterans. The old campaigns should take a much shorter time to complete (you can't expect a new player to be waiting weeks before setting foot in dungeons because he has no boons, of course he's gonna jump in, get roflstomped and be discouraged.) and the guild boons should be nerfed down (yeah, I know, impopular, but they are currently sick). Also bonding runestone and companion's impact should be nerfed down as well.

Or the opposite: give veterans the right place to play the toons they invested in instead of "one thing fits all". They have boons because they have invested time and resources to get that point. By nerfing whatever you're not reducing the gulf, your simply taking away things designed to be where they are and get me mad for the time wasted to be where I am after 2+ years. The next step is a place where they can be challenged.

silverkelt

Largest broken things in game are actually buffs, not boons or bondings. Both of those of course add to power disparity.

Dc power sharing needs a fix or removed from game + GF needs a cap on ITF.

This would fix some of the broken mess we have atm.

abrams121

I like the way STO handles their queued "dungeons". There are at least 3 different difficulty levels for each with slightly better rewards at each level. A daily featured instance. And more than 20 different queued zones you can choose from. The only thing this game has over STO is the people here are a lot more active and this game actually forces you to think about your team composition before you queue.

bitt3rnightmar3

I feel like instead of 'Nerf the boss' and virtually making the game even easier for veteran players this game really needs multiple tiers of dungeons.

Grey wolf den is probably the most difficult dungeon if you don't know how the boss mechanics go.. Even orcus is easier because the tank isn't really even necessary if you have a tank companion and ranged dps. If you don't dodge/kill stuff in the right order and make sure the red wolf dies next to Marrowslake it's possible to fail if your dps doesn't dodge and the stormcallers kill you. It's been just as difficult back when it was a t1 dungeon because it was annoying to farm gear out of their even before the rework/level cap increase. Everything else in the game is pretty easy. I liked tiamat because you could Fail and fail hard.. even now you get a consolation prize for new skirmishes and demogorgon.

lantern22

rapo973 said:

klangeddin said:

2) Reducing the gulf between new players and veterans. The old campaigns should take a much shorter time to complete (you can't expect a new player to be waiting weeks before setting foot in dungeons because he has no boons, of course he's gonna jump in, get roflstomped and be discouraged.) and the guild boons should be nerfed down (yeah, I know, impopular, but they are currently sick). Also bonding runestone and companion's impact should be nerfed down as well.

Or the opposite: give veterans the right place to play the toons they invested in instead of "one thing fits all". They have boons because they have invested time and resources to get that point. By nerfing whatever you're not reducing the gulf, your simply taking away things designed to be where they are and get me mad for the time wasted to be where I am after 2+ years. The next step is a place where they can be challenged.

I actually think klangeddin's idea isn't that bad. Maybe make the boons slightly less grindy or time consuming as they get older. I mean if this game goes on for another 3 years are we expecting new players to take 2 years just to get all their boons. I'm not saying give them boons for free, but perhaps reduce the old stuff by a little with every mod (which adds another set of boons anyway) so its doesn't take quite so long. Anyway boons are one thing but saving up for all the enchants etc. takes ages anyway.

urabask

lantern22 said:

rapo973 said:

klangeddin said:

2) Reducing the gulf between new players and veterans. The old campaigns should take a much shorter time to complete (you can't expect a new player to be waiting weeks before setting foot in dungeons because he has no boons, of course he's gonna jump in, get roflstomped and be discouraged.) and the guild boons should be nerfed down (yeah, I know, impopular, but they are currently sick). Also bonding runestone and companion's impact should be nerfed down as well.

Or the opposite: give veterans the right place to play the toons they invested in instead of "one thing fits all". They have boons because they have invested time and resources to get that point. By nerfing whatever you're not reducing the gulf, your simply taking away things designed to be where they are and get me mad for the time wasted to be where I am after 2+ years. The next step is a place where they can be challenged.

I actually think klangeddin's idea isn't that bad. Maybe make the boons slightly less grindy or time consuming as they get older. I mean if this game goes on for another 3 years are we expecting new players to take 2 years just to get all their boons. I'm not saying give them boons for free, but perhaps reduce the old stuff by a little with every mod (which adds another set of boons anyway) so its doesn't take quite so long. Anyway boons are one thing but saving up for all the enchants etc. takes ages anyway.

The only one that really needs a rework is ToD because it takes like seven weeks to get the arcane pages for the first five boons, and god knows how long for the linus favor.

minotaur2857

urabask said:

beckylunatic said:

urabask said:

Find it odd that no one pointed out that the only reason a party like that should fail is if this guy can't tank properly.

(or they don't have a clue about the fight mechanics, apparently)

Honestly I still don't know the mechanics for eGWD because in guild runs the tank just needs to hold aggro for a bit and everything melts. That's what should've happened in OP's scenario so I'm assuming he just couldn't tank it.

This isn't even true if you're all 4K as the boss will go perma immune unless you can kill him with the bugged SW set first. I understand the problem though because I was on about my 10th CN when somebody mentioned the rifts. I'd never seen them, Orcus hadn't lasted long enough for them to spawn in the previous runs.

beckylunatic

bitt3rnightmar3 said:

Grey wolf den is probably the most difficult dungeon if you don't know how the boss mechanics go.. Even orcus is easier because the tank isn't really even necessary if you have a tank companion and ranged dps. If you don't dodge/kill stuff in the right order and make sure the red wolf dies next to Marrowslake it's possible to fail if your dps doesn't dodge and the stormcallers kill you. It's been just as difficult back when it was a t1 dungeon because it was annoying to farm gear out of their even before the rework/level cap increase. Everything else in the game is pretty easy. I liked tiamat because you could Fail and fail hard.. even now you get a consolation prize for new skirmishes and demogorgon.

Most of the posts in this thread are taking the wrong tack because the OP admitted that his entire party did not understand the mechanics of the fight at all, and they need to go back to the fight with some understanding of specific strategy to see if his complaints even hold water.

But, it's a good opportunity to argue and pick on each other so whatever....

deathbeez

lantern22 said:

I agree with whoever made reference to the "Have's" and the "Have Not's", and I hope the Dev's keep in mind that the game needs to cater for the masses as well as the 97th percentile players that form the majority of the ppl that post on these forums.

I really want to doubt they'll pull a Mod 6 for the second time.
If they do, this game is toast.

The voice of this board is really disconnected to the majority of the player base.
I do mostly pugs because alot of my guild is in different time-zones.
I still see wipes in Shores of Tuern and Lair of Lostmauth all the time.

kreatyve

I have attempted to clean this thread of the flaming and the off topic stuff. I may have missed a comment or 2, or a quote here or there. There was a lot. Please try to be considerate of your fellow players, and instead of attacking each other, how about trying to offer helpful advice? Keep the PvP in game and off the forums. Thanks.

koneko5678

OK guys I get it. Yes when I made the post I was frustrated and I exaggerated the overall difficulty of the dungeons. There are some that i have been able to run, and I do appreciate the advice on how to beat eGWD. Though I want to make one thing clear, I do know how to tank though I will certainly admit to not being the best. I managed to survive for about 15 minutes, died, revived, and went another 5 or 10, holding aggro the whole time. Everybody is saying the boss should have been down in under a minute but that is clearly not the case.

plasticbat

koneko5678 said:

OK guys I get it. Yes when I made the post I was frustrated and I exaggerated the overall difficulty of the dungeons. There are some that i have been able to run, and I do appreciate the advice on how to beat eGWD. Though I want to make one thing clear, I do know how to tank though I will certainly admit to not being the best. I managed to survive for about 15 minutes, died, revived, and went another 5 or 10, holding aggro the whole time. Everybody is saying the boss should have been down in under a minute but that is clearly not the case.

For eGWD, you need to know about red wolf (you probably do now) and need to know the boss is healed by the other wolf. It is not a simple let us hack the boss event. I don't see everybody say the boss should have been down under a minute. The example was based on the right combo of party with right combo attack. It is 15 minutes is way too long. My assumption is your party let the boss be healed (just a wild guess).

Unknown

This content has been removed.

thefabricant

koneko5678 said:

OK guys I get it. Yes when I made the post I was frustrated and I exaggerated the overall difficulty of the dungeons. There are some that i have been able to run, and I do appreciate the advice on how to beat eGWD. Though I want to make one thing clear, I do know how to tank though I will certainly admit to not being the best. I managed to survive for about 15 minutes, died, revived, and went another 5 or 10, holding aggro the whole time. Everybody is saying the boss should have been down in under a minute but that is clearly not the case.

Under 1 min is not what I would expect from a 2.5k il group, so don't feel too bad. A good 3k group does it in under a minute, not a 2.5k group.

jaysun1977

kalindra said:

Yep, so few here get that by far the most players never reach even the 2.5k IL to be allowed to enter every dungeon, and how seldom you get a party - even when all have in excess of 3k IL - who get's a dungeon done in the estimated time, because usually at least one gets frequently killed by lag spikes, latency > void + reaction time, disconnects or crashes, requiring reformation or wipes; and few seem to care how frustrating it gets to finally finish a dungeon after such ordeal with only a single blue **** item as loot or even nothing at all...

How is that a valid argument, though? The dungeons are mechanically fine. You can complete them at the minimum required item Level (with maybe the exception of CN, which I'd put at 2.5K, personally) and none of the mechanics are unfair or bugged.

It is wrong to expect everyone to do well. Some will always struggle, because their grasp of game mechanics is flawed and/or they have no learning orientation. The problem appears to be more ego than mechanics. It is okay, if saomepeople struggle to complete a dungeon. It is even okay, if there are dungeons that the majority lack the qualifications to enter. It provides a goal to strive for, a goal to work towards.

Now, when it comes to rewards, oh boy don't get ,me started on that. Plenty of things to fix there. But the mechanics themselves are alright.
What the game is lacking content wise, is not easier dungeons (there are plenty easy dungens already, like MC, VT, eLoL) but harder ones. We need 3K dungeons, 3.5K dungeons, even 4K dungeons. Not because I would qualify, helly I wouldn't even make it into the 3.5K dungeon, but because there are players who are so far beyond the power curve that the existing content offers no challenge to them anymore. And there needs to be a reasyon to improve your gear. I am not sitting below 3.5K because I couldn't afford it but because I saw no need for a real effort. There is no challenge left that I currently can't beat, even with Pugs, and I am by far not the best player around. Upper middle class, I'd recon personally.

It's the same problem we had with every Module so far: Dvelopers and players alike seem to expect that everyone should be able to participate and succeed in new contetn right away. Why? It makes no sense! You put 3 months of effort into your new modul just to have it beaten and obsolete two weeks later, all the while peaople pissing and moaning for the next module to come, so they get something new to do.

There is currently no goal to work towards. There are boons and enchants way more powerful than the content requires and that blows balance right out of the water. It's terrible game design and a rookie mistake. Give people something to work towards and don't pamper the low end. The players will take care of papmering the low end for you (not everyone, of course, but there are pleanty of friendly and helpful players around, still).

EDIT: About players never reaching iL 2.5K: That is by choice or lack of motivation on their part. We have players in our guild that went to 4K iL in 6 months, starting from scratch, no money investment, working a full time job. Sure, that's the extreme other end but it shows that it is certainly possible. It is therefore that I don't think we should even cater towards players with less than 2.5K anymore. They already have the vast majority of the content available to them. If they want it all, they may have to work for it.

ktrelis

I'd like to point out a few things. This is long and opinionated, so I apologies, this is not directed at any one in specific and is in no way a bash on dev, new player, or any one else that may take offense to anything I say. it is simply my personal observation on the state of things from my own personal experience and may not accurately reflect that of any other player.

To long didn't read said:

1.campaigns HAVE gotten shorter the older they have gotten, AND significantly easier(200% completion with sharandar), and simpler to complete, I honestly feel as though it is so stream lined to catch new players up it's almost a joke, but they do still take some time and I'm pretty sure cryptic would like to keep the option of selling 100% completion for campaigns for $50 still temping to new players. So I highly doubt they are in a hurry to make them TOO short, TOO fast, TOO easy.

2. gear is worthless at this point. The very few HAMSTER pieces of BoE gear left sell for their salvage cost, So all you need is to earn a little AD and you can buy 2.5k iL off the AH just out of the few AD you probably got praying leveling to 70(I know it as fact since I have done it myself on my alts.). New players might now know which gear is better and why? since they are buying things at near salvage value there is little actual loss in purchasing poorly if they can't be bothered to go look up how gear works or stats. And furthermore the cost of buying masterwork equipment if that is your poison is actually often cheaper to buy on AH than the combined component cost after factoring in even with a forged hammer you waste most of your components 1/4 times. So the only gear in this game that isn't "cheap" is the combined cost to upgrade leveling gear/runes, and mounts. and neither of those you NEED to get a high iL, in fact leveling arti equipment gives practically NO increase to your item level(+.005k per tier(15 levels)).

3. Also if you can run any dungeon T1/T2 your can farm seals to buy any T1/T2 gear so the only point in mixing up your dungeons you run is for fun, because it's not efficient or worth the risk of wasting your time failing on a dungeon you struggle with since the removal of armor items sets and the accompanying drop tables in mod 6.(which is probably still to this date the biggest rub for veteran players, because there is no longer a point in running most dungeons because most drops are not unique there is so few things left to sell on the AH from running dungeons).

4. For BoE and BoA equipment the rings give the same odds to a failure as to a success so you might as well queue for edemo and afk 95% of it to farm rings, because unless you need twisted ichor to got your twisted main/offhand the biggest thing you gain from not afking and getting gold is you probably get to leave 5mins or so quicker (which by the way is dumb that phase 1 doesn't end upon getting gold and forces you afk for 2-3 mins in a decent party that can clear in good time). With that I am not promoting gaming the system in fact I'm going to tell you right now not to because it would make you a terrible human being and possibly get you in trouble thought the report system of all the people raging at you as they struggle to try?( I know nothing of how it works)

5. I'd like to point out that most newer content has been aimed at the newer players with things like the event arti's that can be obtained/and upgrade often up to epic quality fairly easily and made available for people at low levels(usually above 15ish?).

6. Also some one pointed people were talking about using stats rather than Item level. They used to it was called gear score, there is really very little gained between one system or the other.

Either way they both under rate my High Prophet set, and increase the flaming I receive when I play with newer players. You honestly don't know how much HAMSTER I put up with on people crying anytime there was a problem with the party and how much blame I got thrown at me because of me "low GS/iL" until some higher teir players took note of my skill, invited me to one elite private group after another. To this day I still can queue up for edemo with random people and have people rage at my cleric that has 40k power and gives about 30k bonus power to my allies and all buffs/debuffs combined raises party dps by about +300%, random 2k players will still say things like "cleric to bad" if party fails to earn gold. on same note if I run with people on my level, we can clear 2nd stage before he charges the first time(I think it's about 4:46 or so time left?). But then again I am specced for speed runs rather than babysitting which is what most low and mid tier clerics actually have to do.


What I think they should do is remove the Item level restrictions altogether from premade party, a full premade party can easily carry some 1k iL players in some dungeons, there is no reason to restrict them from doing so if they wanted to. And if the restriction to this was that the run has to be set to private then there is no risk of enraging people solo queuing because they wont be placed in a private run even if some one drops. If they did that would farther raising the iL requirements for public queuing be viable? I can't say since it wouldn't effect me or any of my alts since as stated above raising a char's item level to 2.5k can easily be done only a few hours at the very most if you understand how to do it even for a brand new account on their first char that just hit 70.

But a new player wouldn't understand enough to be able to do so in fact most people playing probably wouldn't understand all the math well enough to. But the fact remains that it is do-able for with the current state of things. I will admit as some have state that the boards may not accurately reflect the average player. But that neverwinter has made the game increasingly more streamlined with things like the maze engines check list. There is still improvements that probably could be made But I personally feel as though they are not in the area of making dungeons easier, but without a doubt at some point they will to assist lower players to leap frog forward into later content as they release it.

Honestly if they reintroduced a gear that was decent late games like the old mod 5 gear was to the dungeons but made it BoP in normal runs but made BoE version that was identical(or only marginally better) obtained at just a increased stats version of current dungeons. Depending on how the drop tables worked which what numbers would make things still rewarding but without flooding the markets I don't know. But it is probably the simplest way to appease both 2k and 4k player at the same time. For drop tables I'd probably not make them class specific for either, so that in the low Tier version the BoP gear they would get randomly not for their class would just be more RAD fodder(much like more or less everything currently already is). But this is just how I would personally revisit that topic which is shifting from the purpose of this thread, but is still worth noting because it would give increase incentive for some higher tier player to queue with lower tier to finish out a set. Which would assist in alleviating some lower iL players struggle in building a strong party. And would revitalizes a lot of existing content with very low developmental investment, and would help close the gap in late game players, without frustrating most late game players, I view it as an all around win(or a win/win/win scenario).

klangeddin

rapo973 said:

klangeddin said:

2) Reducing the gulf between new players and veterans. The old campaigns should take a much shorter time to complete (you can't expect a new player to be waiting weeks before setting foot in dungeons because he has no boons, of course he's gonna jump in, get roflstomped and be discouraged.) and the guild boons should be nerfed down (yeah, I know, impopular, but they are currently sick). Also bonding runestone and companion's impact should be nerfed down as well.

Or the opposite: give veterans the right place to play the toons they invested in instead of "one thing fits all". They have boons because they have invested time and resources to get that point. By nerfing whatever you're not reducing the gulf, your simply taking away things designed to be where they are and get me mad for the time wasted to be where I am after 2+ years. The next step is a place where they can be challenged.

This is not a solution because you're making the game effectively worse for newcomers.
In PvP it goes without saying that the dispairity would grow even further, but even in PvE, casual puggers would pretty much lose the occasional 3k-4k that drags them along a dungeon that they could never finish (not without joining a good guild and farming boons for weeks, unless they bolt out of the game before even considering it).
It's also not very lungimirant as you're giving content only for a small portion of the player base. Why should the devs put so much effort in something that only the top notch folks will ever play? This does nothing to solve the gap between newcomers and veterans and actually makes it even worse.

rapo973 said:

1.campaigns HAVE gotten shorter the older they have gotten, AND significantly easier (200% completion with sharandar), and simpler to complete, I honestly feel as though it is so stream lined to catch new players up it's almost a joke, but they do still take some time and I'm pretty sure cryptic would like to keep the option of selling 100% completion for campaigns for $50 still temping to new players. So I highly doubt they are in a hurry to make them TOO short, TOO fast, TOO easy.

This is irrilevant because:

1) Dungeons back then (before mod 6) were a joke and much easier than they are now. Yes, even after the arp bug fix the dungeons are still harder now than before mod 6 where the only challenge was "keep a wave of adds occupied while the rest nukes down the boss" (that was literally the same strategy for every single epic dungeon boss out there, they were all a carbon copy of each other, strategically speaking). Boons were not a requirement to be competitive in anything. Actually, boons were weaker than they are now, if I recall correctly.
2) when we did those campaigns (before some of them were shortened), we did them serially, newcomers have to do them all at once. That is dailies of Sharandar, Dread Ring, Tiranny of Dragons, Icewind Dale, Underdark, Guild Stronghold, Maze Engine every day. We didn't have this problem when they came out. We took em on one by one.
3) Because of the reasons above, they are still way too slow for a newcomer who is pit in both the PvE (yes, there's competition in PvE where if you're not seeing as a performing member you eventually get kicked out) and PvP world against players who are far ahead of her/him in progression. Too many boons and too powerful boons (along with the too powerful companions) have creater a far greater gap than there was before. Guild boons especially took this to a whole new level.
4) The 50$ completing tokens, last time I checked, were not available for every campaign, but only for the first ones, Sharandar, Dread Ring and Icewind Dale. Now, I have to say I didn't check the Zen Store in a long time... but even if they did shorten all the campaigns they could just reprice them and rework those bundles to give lots of campaign resources (something they already do, if I recall correctly) for guild coffers. I'm sure they would stil sell a lot, if properly done.

thefabricant

klangeddin said:

rapo973 said:

klangeddin said:

2) Reducing the gulf between new players and veterans. The old campaigns should take a much shorter time to complete (you can't expect a new player to be waiting weeks before setting foot in dungeons because he has no boons, of course he's gonna jump in, get roflstomped and be discouraged.) and the guild boons should be nerfed down (yeah, I know, impopular, but they are currently sick). Also bonding runestone and companion's impact should be nerfed down as well.

Or the opposite: give veterans the right place to play the toons they invested in instead of "one thing fits all". They have boons because they have invested time and resources to get that point. By nerfing whatever you're not reducing the gulf, your simply taking away things designed to be where they are and get me mad for the time wasted to be where I am after 2+ years. The next step is a place where they can be challenged.

This is not a solution because you're making the game effectively worse for newcomers.
In PvP it goes without saying that the dispairity would grow even further, but even in PvE, casual puggers would pretty much lose the occasional 3k-4k that drags them along a dungeon that they could never finish (not without joining a good guild and farming boons for weeks, unless they bolt out of the game before even considering it).
It's also not very lungimirant as you're giving content only for a small portion of the player base. Why should the devs put so much effort in something that only the top notch folks will ever play? This does nothing to solve the gap between newcomers and veterans and actually makes it even worse.

rapo973 said:

1.campaigns HAVE gotten shorter the older they have gotten, AND significantly easier (200% completion with sharandar), and simpler to complete, I honestly feel as though it is so stream lined to catch new players up it's almost a joke, but they do still take some time and I'm pretty sure cryptic would like to keep the option of selling 100% completion for campaigns for $50 still temping to new players. So I highly doubt they are in a hurry to make them TOO short, TOO fast, TOO easy.

This is irrilevant because:

1) Dungeons back then (before mod 6) were a joke and much easier than they are now. Yes, even after the arp bug fix the dungeons are still harder now than before mod 6 where the only challenge was "keep a wave of adds occupied while the rest nukes down the boss" (that was literally the same strategy for every single epic dungeon boss out there, they were all a carbon copy of each other, strategically speaking). Boons were not a requirement to be competitive in anything. Actually, boons were weaker than they are now, if I recall correctly.
2) when we did those campaigns (before some of them were shortened), we did them serially, newcomers have to do them all at once. That is dailies of Sharandar, Dread Ring, Tiranny of Dragons, Icewind Dale, Underdark, Guild Stronghold, Maze Engine every day. We didn't have this problem when they came out. We took em on one by one.
3) Because of the reasons above, they are still way too slow for a newcomer who is pit in both the PvE (yes, there's competition in PvE where if you're not seeing as a performing member you eventually get kicked out) and PvP world against players who are far ahead of her/him in progression. Too many boons and too powerful boons (along with the too powerful companions) have creater a far greater gap than there was before. Guild boons especially took this to a whole new level.
4) The 50$ completing tokens, last time I checked, were not available for every campaign, but only for the first ones, Sharandar, Dread Ring and Icewind Dale. Now, I have to say I didn't check the Zen Store in a long time... but even if they did shorten all the campaigns they could just reprice them and rework those bundles to give lots of campaign resources (something they already do, if I recall correctly) for guild coffers. I'm sure they would stil sell a lot, if properly done.

The issue is, that people see it as a case of, "we need a random 3k to queue in for us to do this dungeon." Maybe if random 3ks weren't queuing for those dungeons, they would actually L2P instead of leeching off of someone else.

klangeddin

That's a far fetched assumption, they're more likely to either join a guild/channel filled with generous 3k (so in that sense, it's just as much as leeching as doing it from a pug) or quit the game entirely.

durugudesu

thefabricant said:

The issue is, that people see it as a case of, "we need a random 3k to queue in for us to do this dungeon." Maybe if random 3ks weren't queuing for those dungeons, they would actually L2P instead of leeching off of someone else.

Well said, but sadly i dont think people who hate "speed runs" will get your point.

gankdalf

lol nerf dungeons? They need be x2 harder than they are. If the epic ones are to hard then go do the lower ones instead.

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commanderdata002

Whatever difficulty settings they are planning to use in Tier3 dungeons...double it!

rapo973

klangeddin said:

This is not a solution because you're making the game effectively worse for newcomers.
[...]
It's also not very lungimirant as you're giving content only for a small portion of the player base. Why should the devs put so much effort in something that only the top notch folks will ever play? This does nothing to solve the gap between newcomers and veterans and actually makes it even worse.

Or it gives newcomers an horizon and a sense of progression. Given all the stuff you can collect in this game (SH boons, insigna bonus, etc), newcomers would have to do a lot of things before touching the end game, like it was for CN in Mod 3. At that time finishing CN was very challenging and no players complained about it as the rewards were very good.
The new layout of the campaign GUI shows exactly this: progression.

A small portion of the players base? I respect your assumption even if I don't know where it comes from, but I play with and see so many 3k+ players around.

klangeddin said:

This is irrilevant because:
[...]

Imo you're mixing up too many things. But ok...

tripsofthrymr

loboguild said:

I wouldn't say though that the dungeons are too hard, but the game is atrocious in telling players what they need to contribute appropriately. All due respect to Sharp and others, but that highly experienced players can run stuff in 2k groups and very specific setups and comps doesn't "prove" anything.

I run a guild specifically geared toward newer players. We have been able to beat all of the 5 man content, at or near the minimum item level with the only "geared and experienced" player being my DC or GF and sometimes a 2.5Kish from the alliance to fill the party. I did spend time helping my guildies make good builds (not bug-optimized ones).

My guild is very new. We beat those dungeons before even having the first guild boon. My DC is also new, only about 2/3 through the boons.

It is a good thing that there is some challenging content in the game that requires some thought and coordination. It is also a good thing that there is plenty of easy content in the game for super-casual players or those that just want to zone out for a bit. Please though, don't further trivialize end-game content for players that know their class well and have spent some time building out their character.

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