Requiring PvP to build Barracks is a Slap-in-the-Face to PvE Guilds

aandrethegiant · August 2015

This is a REALLY bone-headed decision by Cryptic. This gives PvPers an unfair and direct offensive advantage in all the hardest areas of the game for PvEers.

PvPing should not give you a buff to dominate on the PvE side of the game, at the expense of PvEers. It just makes no sense. An incredibly stupid idea if it makes it to live.

Seems odd that Devs singled out the power boon alone. What else could it be but a deliberate marketing move to achieve their goal of requiring PvP to build up what I consider to be a no brainer PvE option.

Not to mention it flies in the face of truth about what Cryptic has been saying all along about PvE guilds not being required to PvP in order to build their strongholds.

In short, this is a slap in the face to any PvE focused guild that DOES NOT WANT to PvP.

sangrine · August 2015

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Seems odd that Devs singled out the power boon alone. What else could it be but a deliberate marketing move to achieve their goal of requiring PvP to build up what I consider to be a no brainer PvE option.

1. This discussion is more appropriate in the preview section of the forum.
2. Are you saying that glory is required to build a barracks?
3. Are you saying that no other structures require glory?

The Mercenary Outpost gives + critical severity. Don't know the amount but it sounds like a worthy alternative.

tcarnce · August 2015

ooo nooo's the giant

we know pvp isn't the greatest thing for andre the giant, because he lost once from hulk hogan.
just kidding.
but the pvp you're talking about contains also pve right ? ;p
or not , i don't know. i thought you needed to pve quest also in there.
so if . then it would also not be 100% to the pvp player likings also.
guess both have to give and take some in the mixed area.

j0shi82 · August 2015

I think people have to accept that you no longer play the game on your own terms. You either do what they want you to do or fall behind.

j0shi82 · August 2015

sangrine wrote: »

The Mercenary Outpost gives + critical severity. Don't know the amount but it sounds like a worthy alternative.

No. Barracks is one of the best structure available.

jugger71 · August 2015

I would propose this is an oversight on their part. When IWD launched there was an uproar about something being acquired via PVP only(cant remember, ice belts maybe) and they responded fairly quickly by changing it.

Post your concern in the appropriate forum, explain your case and ask nicely for them to change it. I feel confident they will address it.

Im not positive but their record on not having to pvp if you dont want to has been pretty good imho.

regenerde · August 2015

They still have a week to change it... but i wouldn't be surprised, if this is on purpose, so that the PvP guilds get some fresh cannon fodder every day.
If this stays, i would like to read something from those, that were saying that the players don't have to PvP for Strongholds...

Unknown · August 2015

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aandrethegiant · August 2015

sangrine wrote: »

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Seems odd that Devs singled out the power boon alone. What else could it be but a deliberate marketing move to achieve their goal of requiring PvP to build up what I consider to be a no brainer PvE option.

1. This discussion is more appropriate in the preview section of the forum.
2. Are you saying that glory is required to build a barracks?
3. Are you saying that no other structures require glory?

The Mercenary Outpost gives + critical severity. Don't know the amount but it sounds like a worthy alternative.

1. I posted in general because I'm simply posting on information that was released to the general public already... This is knowledge anyone who is paying close attention already knows... and as a way to alert those not paying very close attention what is right around the corner.

2 and 3. "Glory and Conqueror’s Shards of Power are required for PvP-related structures (towers, siege structures, and for the straight power bonus on the barracks), but are not required on other structures or the guild hall."

According to the above Developers Q&A quote above, Glory and/or Conqueror’s Shards of Power are required for the Power Bonus boon. This is going to put PvE guilds and it's members behind the 8 ball, forcing them to play the game in a way they do not intend or enjoy, or else suffer the consequence of appx a 20% dps nerf.

PvPing should not give anyone DPS advantage to dominate on the PvE side of the game, at the expense of PvEers. It's illogical.

Unknown · August 2015

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aandrethegiant · August 2015

starbigamo wrote: »

The most absurd and STUPID thing EVER is make a "pvp side of the game" and a "PVE side of the game". Thats the biggest reason why the playerbase left.

Oh we are going to have to simply disagree there. Number one reason people left that I spoke to? BOREDOM. No reason to stay. Burnt out doing the same thing over and over again. Strongholds actually is the first thing they added to the game to give a REASON to stay beyond loving the character you built and how it plays. It gives reasons for LIKE MINDED players to not only hang around longer but WORK TOGETHER towards a COMMON GOAL.

This is why EVERY SINGLE EFFORT that Cryptic has devised to force PvPers and PvEers to play together has been a big fail. Guilds are built and grow based on the camaraderie of like minded players. Those of the same or similar playstyles. Those shooting for a common goal. Guilds wilt on drama and being forced to play a certain way.

This is why there needs to be CLEAR CUT choices in Strongholds for focused PvE and PvP guilds. This was supposed to be the way the system was supposed to work, as quoted by devs in official Strongholds marketing.

In short, if a PvEer wants to PvP, or a PvPer wants to PvP, it should be THEIR CHOICE, without penalty, because at the end of the day, if people can not play the game the way they want to play it, they simply will not play, and that has been the biggest downfall for Neverwinter since it began in my opi, has been all the gating. Play it OUR WAY, not YOUR WAY. Neverwinter devs in the past never saw it that way, but this is how many players I've spoken to over the years have experienced it.

Utter failures of PvP Matchmaking (typical or casual players are not efficiently protected by the matchmaking from being stomped) and PvE Grouping (Looking-for-group system or lack thereof is much more like it) are the biggest development flaws and omissions to this game. That is also why the decline. That's why people feel they are doing the same thing over and over again. They aren't enjoying the entire game experience, because they can't.

Lastly, ignoring the majority of the playerbase, who are PvErs, by releasing PvP update after PvP update has disenfranchised MANY who bought into this game because of potential of sharing great D&D adventures with others through a great storyline and ESPECIALLY THE FOUNDRY, has been what looks like a costly mistake.

aandrethegiant · August 2015

revjimjones wrote: »

aandrethegiant wrote: »

sangrine wrote: »

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Seems odd that Devs singled out the power boon alone. What else could it be but a deliberate marketing move to achieve their goal of requiring PvP to build up what I consider to be a no brainer PvE option.

you will have to suck it up and perform the daily SH PvP mission as required for the Structure. Or you could recruit a PvPer or 2 an hope that the infestation doesn't spread.

Thank you but no thank you. People play games because they want to, the way they want to. There is no harm to the PvP community if the PvE community does not have to PvP in order to acquire the Barracks. It is illogical to propose a PvPer's DPS is superior to a PvEers DPS by 1%, none the less 20%. It goes against the whole concept of providing PvE and PvP gear.

This decision has no redeeming value for anyone, is a net negative for PvE guilds, and will cause a ton of unnecessary strife. You will ABSOLUTELY see guildies breaking apart from their current guild just to get that 20% DPS boost.

This is NOT why guilds are created, nor exist. This needs to be addressed BEFORE it hits live.

sangrine · August 2015

why are so many people assuming that +power is a better boon than + critical severity?
All my pve characters are built for high critical chance and high crit severity, including my DC.

There is also the group stat bonus boon which could potentially be even better than +power and +crit severity.

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aandrethegiant · August 2015

revjimjones wrote: »

aandrethegiant wrote: »

Thank you but no thank you. People play games because they want to, the way they want to. There is no harm to the PvP community if the PvE community does not have to PvP in order to acquire the Barracks. It is illogical to propose a PvPer's DPS is superior to a PvEers DPS by 1%, none the less 20%. It goes against the whole concept of providing PvE and PvP gear.

This decision has no redeeming value for anyone, is a net negative for PvE guilds, and will cause a ton of unnecessary strife. You will ABSOLUTELY see guildies breaking apart from their current guild just to get that 20% DPS boost.

This is NOT why guilds are created, nor exist. This needs to be addressed BEFORE it hits live.

Don't want to do PvP then don't build the Optional Building, no one is forcing you to PvP if you don't want to PvP then you obviously don't want the building or the boons with it. If someone wants that Boon they will obviously leave a guild that refuses to pvp to build it and JOIN with like minded people who have built it or are working towards building it.
Decisions have to be made on the individual level on whether your moral high ground is worth not having the boon or not.

There's actually more than one side to the coin Jim. The #1 reason people join guilds should be the PEOPLE. Friendships are actually made in guilds. Why then, should friends need to split just because of a buff? Its absurd. I will go so far to suggest this one decision will negatively affect the global re-playability factor in the game.

The boons we choose to build will naturally best match our playstyle. However, we didn't form because of a buff, we formed and continue to co-exist because of the friendships made and the camaraderie we share. This is numero uno why Tyrs Paladium is still here and still going strong. Its why MANY guilds are still here and going strong.

Telling someone to "suck it up" is not how to keep your guildies happy.

My suggested fix: A 20% DPS boost should not go just to PvPers, either let both PvEers and PvPers have (actually earn) the buff, or take it out entirely.

Im simply suggesting more discussion needs to be had now, before it hits live, because this one issue WILL come to haunt some guild leaders down the road. And it wont only affect PvE guilds, but PvE guilds which choose to dabble in PvP (Something that is near impossible due to the systems behind Neverwinter PvP), and smaller guilds in general.

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aandrethegiant · August 2015

revjimjones wrote: »

So you are basically against the Fact that a single Structure is both PvP and PvE? Why not have 2 Completely different methods of Paying for each building and Level since it is obviously unfair that the PvPer have to do PvE Content to build their Strongholds.

More unhappy people does not equate to a fix. I believe everyone should be able to play the way they see fit, in the guild of their choosing. A PvP and PvE currency is not the worst idea, however the system they have in place seems to be excellent. I'm proposing one change, because of the power of the buff (Pun purely on purpose).

jugger71 · August 2015

Thats a false dichotomy. Pver's not wanting pvp does equate to pvpers not wanting to pve.

cambo1682 · August 2015

Limiting such a juicy boon to being gained through "PVP only" content will, as has been cited above, force people and guilds to make a choice about that building. I doubt my guild will bother chasing that boon, the majority dislike PVP. Reasoning with those people is fruitless. Human nature will prevail and ultimately the PVE'ers that refuse to do PVP will, frankly, be pissed off about it. I don't think Cryptic can afford to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that many people off again after the Mod 6 incident. It's correct noone would be forced to take it, but Andre is correct that is it is no skin off the rear of the PVP guilds if PVE'ers can get it to run dungeons, HE's and the like. It would be a far safer move for Cryptic Devs to rethink the means by which that building is accessed. I'm sure they have their 'Roadmap' for how the game will look, but somewhere around Mod 3 they took a wrong turn at Albuquerque.

hustin1 · August 2015

This is a big problem. As guild leader, my policy is that I will never pressure any members to PvP. However, I can see PvE dungeon groups looking only for people who have the power boon. Power is not tenacity -- it affects all aspects of play, not just PvP.

Devs, we need an official response on this one. This is a big deal.

beckylunatic · August 2015

sangrine wrote: »

why are so many people assuming that +power is a better boon than + critical severity?
All my pve characters are built for high critical chance and high crit severity, including my DC.

There is also the group stat bonus boon which could potentially be even better than +power and +crit severity.

Analytically, the Barracks is the BEST boon structure available. If you don't build one, you're making a choice to gimp your guild. If the structures were balanced better then there'd be alternatives, but a lot of the buffs are really situational and this one is universal. And it's not only about the power, but whether or not every buff on your buildings of choice is useful.

Edit: The one that gets me... there's a bonus to Glory gain on a structure that apparently *doesn't* require PvP to build. That's ridonkulous.

juleadream · August 2015

Simple solution would be to simply remove the "prefix" from all the Shards of Power... no "adventurers" or "conquest", just simply, "shard of power", which can be earned through any and all activity in the game. This would allow PvE guilds to do ONLY PvE, and PvP guilds to do ONLY PvP. Either that or just remove the cancerous tumour that is PvP entirely :P

beck54 · August 2015

Is there a bad thing if everyone has to pve and pvp?

I know people like their comfort zones but with everyone participating it will keep things watered down. Just the NCL.

I wish they added the 2x ad for dungeons/skirmish/foundry/salvage for permanant.

Then there is a real reward for playing all content.

Unknown · August 2015

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rickcase276 · August 2015

There is plenty of PvE. All the campaign zones are end-game PvE, more or less, and those can all be done solo. And honestly there are many many people playing this game that hate PvP, and for many different reasons. I do because I do not feel that trying to kill other players really fits with the whole D&D concept, nor do I think it is respectful to other players to try to kill them. Everyone plays this game for their own reasons, and to do what they want to do.

adent086 · August 2015

As stated above, and in MANY other places, by MANY other people: The BEST fix to this is to simply make "Shards of Power". Period. No different kinds of any sort. They have already done this for other secondary currencies in Strongholds (i.e. Influence, Research, etc. etc.) I don't see why it can't be done here.

This one step solves ALL of these problems and debates; AND it actually gives an advantage to Guilds that do ALL in game activities as they will be able to gain (the new singular kind of) Power Shards more quickly, as they will be willing to do more of the available dailies. While at the same time, guilds that don't want to have to do any particular kind of content, don't have to. Everyone, even Cryptic because of the players this will bring back into the game, wins.

Either way, this NEEDS to be addressed; OFFICIALLY, by the devs. Maybe in the new "Community Corner" as that was designed for just for this purpose.

Continued silence only leads to the belief that they are trying to "stealth" this one in.

Please respond to this ASAP devs. Lots of potential customers are hanging on this decision. As stated above, this IS a big deal to a lot of people.

Peace all.

aandrethegiant · August 2015

Wow some great feedback by all!

I want Cryptic devs to think long and hard about what I am going to type next...

PvEers and PvPers in guilds OF FRIENDS will stay playing Neverwinter for YEARS. PvPers don't typically have the same loyalty towards games that are not built from the ground up to be a PvP game (Exhibit A: Neverwinter), but they too, in guilds OF FRIENDS, are more likely to stay playing Neverwinter for years if Cryptic hits a home run with Strongholds.

Buffs alone ARE NOT ENOUGH to keep guilds together over the long haul.

There is plenty in this Strongholds content to be enjoyed by all. Don't kill it by gating and forcing PvP onto unwilling gamers. It won't work.

adent086 wrote: »

As stated above, and in MANY other places, by MANY other people: The BEST fix to this is to simply make "Shards of Power". Period. No different kinds of any sort.

This is the undisputed best solution in my eyes. Let's re-think this Devs and let guilds and players play the game the way they want to. And that means to allow them to build the Stronghold they want to.

two30 · August 2015

PvP isn't strictly necessary for Glory coffers. You'll be able to acquire bind-on-pickup random vouchers from the new lockbox. If you're lucky, you'll get Glory vouchers. That makes everyone happy, right?

umsche · August 2015

This building also needs PvE marks, right?

Requiring PvP to build Barracks is a Slap-in-the-Face to PvE Guilds

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