So... I think this thread suffers from one major flaw that hasn't been adequately but to rest - it's a complaint that a single feature of a single structure that isn't explicitly PvP requires some PvP currency to build, which is unfair to all the PvE players out there who refuse to do any PvP at all. The problem is, the opposite is true as well - if you assume most PvE players refuse to do PvP, then you must also assume the opposite is true, (in fact, neither assumption is really true, both are dicto simpliciter fallacies) which makes nearly the entirety of Strongholds unfair and unfun for PvPers who are now forced to grind PvE content over and over to earn all that currency.
However, that massive bit of hypocrisy aside, the proposed solution (Marks of Power as a single currency) is a very good one and would put this whole "fun and fair" issue aside completely. Personally, I find the massive prolififeration of currencies bewildering and a little absurd. I recall STO suffered from a similar malady many years ago until they learned their lesson and did away with the vast majority of their currencies and combined most into a small number of currencies instead. NW's developers should perhaps see about learning that lesson themselves.....
... weren't most of the former NWO Devs fired right after Elemental Evil, and are not the STO Devs or the STO Team now in charge of NWO too?
And isn't there a lot of feedback from players, suggesting to more or less separate PvE and PvP even more... but looks like that feedback is ignored as well.
So... I think this thread suffers from one major flaw that hasn't been adequately but to rest - it's a complaint that a single feature of a single structure that isn't explicitly PvP requires some PvP currency to build, which is unfair to all the PvE players out there who refuse to do any PvP at all. The problem is, the opposite is true as well - if you assume most PvE players refuse to do PvP, then you must also assume the opposite is true, (in fact, neither assumption is really true, both are dicto simpliciter fallacies) which makes nearly the entirety of Strongholds unfair and unfun for PvPers who are now forced to grind PvE content over and over to earn all that currency.
Oh there is no hypocrisy at all intended kvet. Our focus is on PvE guilds simply because we are a PvE guild and that's where our focus is for guilds that are built and play like us. I felt the voice of the PvE focused guilds were not being heard, hence the need to be absolutely clear that this is hurting PvE guilds greatly. If you read my comments, multiple times I state that PvPers are also affected in the opposite way.
However, as a few have alluded to, there are other reasons reasons why PvEers request not to deal with PvP, most specifically to avoid the immature PvPers, and all the e-peening that goes along with it. Naturally this doesn't label all or even most PvPers, but to be 100% real & honest here, in this game and any other officially licensed D&D product, this will be a real and present phenomenon.
However, that massive bit of hypocrisy aside, the proposed solution (Marks of Power as a single currency) is a very good one and would put this whole "fun and fair" issue aside completely. Personally, I find the massive prolififeration of currencies bewildering and a little absurd. I recall STO suffered from a similar malady many years ago until they learned their lesson and did away with the vast majority of their currencies and combined most into a small number of currencies instead. NW's developers should perhaps see about learning that lesson themselves.....
With PvPers its mostly about the PvE content, with PvEers, its about the non-D&D concepts of PvP as well as avoiding the Epeen fluff.
Regardless what your reasoning is, Marks of Power as a single currency seem to be the way that both sides can shake their hands on. And that's MY PERSONAL goal for the thread was to get everyone, or almost everyone shaking their hands on a subject that was, is and always will be, a thorny one for all sides.
So everyone is crystal clear, I'm simply for playing the game the way you want to play, whether you're PvE, PvP or one who likes to dabble in both.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited August 2015
It would be simpler to just have one kind of shard, and it would alleviate a lot of concerns for small guilds as well.
Collecting enough dungeoneer shards to upgrade the guildhall high enough to make rank 2 buildings (and thus be able to buy the beginner guild armor from the market) on a small guild is going to be very difficult.
It would be simpler to just have one kind of shard, and it would alleviate a lot of concerns for small guilds as well.
Collecting enough dungeoneer shards to upgrade the guildhall high enough to make rank 2 buildings (and thus be able to buy the beginner guild armor from the market) on a small guild is going to be very difficult.
This is a very, very good point. Small guilds should be Priority One for Cryptic, as there will be MANY MANY more of these types of guilds. Many of them I fear will puff into nothing if Cryptic does not address this single issue properly now, BEFORE this goes live.
rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
Or especially like me in my guild. Yes, there are 21 accounts in the guild, but right now I am the only active one in it. I personally do not like PvP nor do I like the dungeons. I just prefer to run campaign content. So the multiple types of shards is going to make it almost impossible for me to level up my stronghold.
Or especially like me in my guild. Yes, there are 21 accounts in the guild, but right now I am the only active one in it. I personally do not like PvP nor do I like the dungeons. I just prefer to run campaign content. So the multiple types of shards is going to make it almost impossible for me to level up my stronghold.
There are many, many guilds just like yours rickcase, and you are sitting on gold, potentially. If Cryptic plays their cards right, guilds just like yours might begin to see activity again. They are MOST LIKELY TO CONTINUE PLAYING NEVERWINTER if they see their old friends. No question about it. This is why Cryptic needs to cater to all guilds, but especially to small guilds.
You are a perfect case in point for the model they are using. Cryptic does not want itty bitty tiny guilds
How dare you insult another player or guild for simply playing the game the way they want to play or who they wish to play it with. Guilds promote pride and fun and teamwork. All are ingredients in RE-PLAYABILITY, which if this isn't GOAL #1 for Cryptic, then they are IN THE WRONG BUSINESS. Quality always trumps quantity in the guild world. Re-playability is goal number one for almost every guild leader I ever met, and I met them in the THOUSANDS over the years.
Cryptic can really do a solid for guild leaders if they revisit the Power shard/currency issue before this mod goes live.
There are also PVE guilds that have groups within the guild that love to PVP together. Allowing them to contribute to the Stronghold by obtaining the SAME marks as the PVE focused majority of the guild would also be a win win. Same marks, same value, same "fairness". The solution is right there in front of the Devs.
rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
Well honestly for me, I really am not too concerned about the power boon anyway. Out of my 16 characters maybe 3-4 are in real need of more power, most honestly need more armor pen. And do you have anything that shows you that the majority of guilds are in the 20+ size? I rather doubt that they are, I suspect there are many many more family only guilds out there than are there uber guilds.
Yes, that is their model for the expansion, but that does not mean it is the best way to go. The adapt or die mentality you are showing is as bad as the "learn to play" mentality. That is why the game is in the problems it is now, Mod6 issues come to mind. There has to be a middle ground from guilds with 5 accounts to guilds with 150 accounts. If they only want 20+ account guilds to participate, then they need to make 20 active accounts the minimum to maintain a guild. Until they do that, then it needs to be accessible, with minimum effort, to ALL size guilds.
No one, not even the Devs should be able to tell anyone how they should play their game. All we are trying to do is get them to rethink a few things, which is never a bad thing.
As allready mentioned in another thread, Stronghold is all about getting people into guilds, then tying them to their guilds, and in the end to ensure that people stay ingame and continue/start spending money.
And the Devs, or rather the Managment, is going to continue on that path.
Same goes for the PvP requirement within the Strongholds. Just remember the PvP league event... nice rewards for playing PvP, to get the players onto that treadmill.
And of course, no real matchmaking system behind all this... they want to keep their big spenders happy with fresh cannon fodder.
So much for all the player feedback given this far... the Devs, or the Managment, are telling the players exactly how to play their game.
rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
edited August 2015
Yes, I would say that their analysis was skewed. But even if most of the smaller guilds are closer to 20-30 people, that does not mean all are. They should have balanced it from the smallest possible size guild (5 accounts) to the largest (150 accounts). That would have been the most fair, and most sensible. Then they should have balanced to exactly in between, not skewed more towards the top as it appears to be now. And I already said I do not really care about the power boon anyway, as I need the armor pen one more, and that comes from a different building and at level 1.
And dungeoneer's shards of power are required to level up the guild hall, and there are people playing the game that can not or do not like to run dungeons. Because of time, internet connection etc.
I enjoy this banter back and forth with you. Yet you still do not have a rebuttal for the Cryptic Designed it for 20+ to 150 Accounts argument. Cryptic does not want itty bitty tiny guilds
RevJimJones, you have every right to feel that way and play your way, but telling other people to play the game within your understanding of situation or "suck it up"/"you arent good enough" is not going to work for most folks in the game.
*** The reality is more players are NOT in a guild than are IN a guild. There are also more people in small guilds (under 20 active) than in medium or large guilds. There is no question in my mind. Take it from the person who has run the Guild Directories for the original Founders Guilds and the current guild directory. I hear from the guild leaders in and out of game what the challenges of the guild leaders are in game.
Forcing guilds to "GET TO 20 ACTIVE or YOU CANT PLAY" is suicidal for this mod. There are some AWESOME family and friend guilds THAT PLAY FOR YEARS. They don't need to be as big as Tyrs Paladium (a medium sized guild) or the Greycloaks (a large sized guild) to have fun and spend money. Keeping these LOYAL GUILDS excluded from arguably the best structure (or any structure really) is nonsensical. Just let people play, and they will pay.
There needs to be a better way Cryptic. Guild leaders TAKING ON THE RESPONSIBILITY to become a guild leader need to feel their effort will be successful. They can't start with 20 or 50 or 100 members. They often begin with just THEMSELVES, or maybe one person and their hubby/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend and grow from there. But if THEY don't believe they will be successful, then it will show in their recruitment and they will get NO MEMBERS... or new recruits will just quit.
Everybody starts as an "itty bitty tiny guild". Many guilds have become "itty bitty tiny guild" because of the way this game plays.
It's time for Cryptic to give back and throw these up and coming guilds, and the ghost town guilds (They are still standing because of Pride) a chance to be great, or be great once again.
Many guilds have become "itty bitty tiny guild" because of the way this game plays.
It's time for Cryptic to give back and throw... the ghost town guilds (They are still standing because of Pride) a chance to be great, or be great once again.
Gosh, that sounds familiar.
I talked to my players. I told them it's going to be hard for us to get anywhere. I let them know some good options for larger guilds to check out and told them that there would be no resentment if that's what they wanted.
And they told me they were behind me and didn't want to leave.
Membership stands at 96 accounts. 20 of those have logged in within the last month. Only a handful of those are playing actively. And they are excited about strongholds and excited about the idea of building something together... and they want to do it as part of the guild they've been in for years, that they joined for the sake of the people in it... not somewhere else.
Many guilds have become "itty bitty tiny guild" because of the way this game plays.
It's time for Cryptic to give back and throw... the ghost town guilds (They are still standing because of Pride) a chance to be great, or be great once again.
Gosh, that sounds familiar.
I talked to my players. I told them it's going to be hard for us to get anywhere. I let them know some good options for larger guilds to check out and told them that there would be no resentment if that's what they wanted.
And they told me they were behind me and didn't want to leave.
Membership stands at 96 accounts. 20 of those have logged in within the last month. Only a handful of those are playing actively. And they are excited about strongholds and excited about the idea of building something together... and they want to do it as part of the guild they've been in for years, that they joined for the sake of the people in it... not somewhere else.
A perfect example. Becky is a very experienced guild leader, with great ideas. I'm so glad to see her still around representing with her guild. Anyone looking for a guild would do swell in her guild.
Bottom line... Cryptic needs guilds like Becky's onboard with this update.
Comments
However, that massive bit of hypocrisy aside, the proposed solution (Marks of Power as a single currency) is a very good one and would put this whole "fun and fair" issue aside completely. Personally, I find the massive prolififeration of currencies bewildering and a little absurd. I recall STO suffered from a similar malady many years ago until they learned their lesson and did away with the vast majority of their currencies and combined most into a small number of currencies instead. NW's developers should perhaps see about learning that lesson themselves.....
Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
And isn't there a lot of feedback from players, suggesting to more or less separate PvE and PvP even more... but looks like that feedback is ignored as well.
Oh there is no hypocrisy at all intended kvet. Our focus is on PvE guilds simply because we are a PvE guild and that's where our focus is for guilds that are built and play like us. I felt the voice of the PvE focused guilds were not being heard, hence the need to be absolutely clear that this is hurting PvE guilds greatly. If you read my comments, multiple times I state that PvPers are also affected in the opposite way.
However, as a few have alluded to, there are other reasons reasons why PvEers request not to deal with PvP, most specifically to avoid the immature PvPers, and all the e-peening that goes along with it. Naturally this doesn't label all or even most PvPers, but to be 100% real & honest here, in this game and any other officially licensed D&D product, this will be a real and present phenomenon.
With PvPers its mostly about the PvE content, with PvEers, its about the non-D&D concepts of PvP as well as avoiding the Epeen fluff.
Regardless what your reasoning is, Marks of Power as a single currency seem to be the way that both sides can shake their hands on. And that's MY PERSONAL goal for the thread was to get everyone, or almost everyone shaking their hands on a subject that was, is and always will be, a thorny one for all sides.
So everyone is crystal clear, I'm simply for playing the game the way you want to play, whether you're PvE, PvP or one who likes to dabble in both.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Collecting enough dungeoneer shards to upgrade the guildhall high enough to make rank 2 buildings (and thus be able to buy the beginner guild armor from the market) on a small guild is going to be very difficult.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
This is a very, very good point. Small guilds should be Priority One for Cryptic, as there will be MANY MANY more of these types of guilds. Many of them I fear will puff into nothing if Cryptic does not address this single issue properly now, BEFORE this goes live.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
There are many, many guilds just like yours rickcase, and you are sitting on gold, potentially. If Cryptic plays their cards right, guilds just like yours might begin to see activity again. They are MOST LIKELY TO CONTINUE PLAYING NEVERWINTER if they see their old friends. No question about it. This is why Cryptic needs to cater to all guilds, but especially to small guilds.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
How dare you insult another player or guild for simply playing the game the way they want to play or who they wish to play it with. Guilds promote pride and fun and teamwork. All are ingredients in RE-PLAYABILITY, which if this isn't GOAL #1 for Cryptic, then they are IN THE WRONG BUSINESS. Quality always trumps quantity in the guild world. Re-playability is goal number one for almost every guild leader I ever met, and I met them in the THOUSANDS over the years.
Cryptic can really do a solid for guild leaders if they revisit the Power shard/currency issue before this mod goes live.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Yes, that is their model for the expansion, but that does not mean it is the best way to go. The adapt or die mentality you are showing is as bad as the "learn to play" mentality. That is why the game is in the problems it is now, Mod6 issues come to mind. There has to be a middle ground from guilds with 5 accounts to guilds with 150 accounts. If they only want 20+ account guilds to participate, then they need to make 20 active accounts the minimum to maintain a guild. Until they do that, then it needs to be accessible, with minimum effort, to ALL size guilds.
No one, not even the Devs should be able to tell anyone how they should play their game. All we are trying to do is get them to rethink a few things, which is never a bad thing.
And the Devs, or rather the Managment, is going to continue on that path.
Same goes for the PvP requirement within the Strongholds. Just remember the PvP league event... nice rewards for playing PvP, to get the players onto that treadmill.
And of course, no real matchmaking system behind all this... they want to keep their big spenders happy with fresh cannon fodder.
So much for all the player feedback given this far... the Devs, or the Managment, are telling the players exactly how to play their game.
And dungeoneer's shards of power are required to level up the guild hall, and there are people playing the game that can not or do not like to run dungeons. Because of time, internet connection etc.
RevJimJones, you have every right to feel that way and play your way, but telling other people to play the game within your understanding of situation or "suck it up"/"you arent good enough" is not going to work for most folks in the game.
*** The reality is more players are NOT in a guild than are IN a guild. There are also more people in small guilds (under 20 active) than in medium or large guilds. There is no question in my mind. Take it from the person who has run the Guild Directories for the original Founders Guilds and the current guild directory. I hear from the guild leaders in and out of game what the challenges of the guild leaders are in game.
Forcing guilds to "GET TO 20 ACTIVE or YOU CANT PLAY" is suicidal for this mod. There are some AWESOME family and friend guilds THAT PLAY FOR YEARS. They don't need to be as big as Tyrs Paladium (a medium sized guild) or the Greycloaks (a large sized guild) to have fun and spend money. Keeping these LOYAL GUILDS excluded from arguably the best structure (or any structure really) is nonsensical. Just let people play, and they will pay.
There needs to be a better way Cryptic. Guild leaders TAKING ON THE RESPONSIBILITY to become a guild leader need to feel their effort will be successful. They can't start with 20 or 50 or 100 members. They often begin with just THEMSELVES, or maybe one person and their hubby/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend and grow from there. But if THEY don't believe they will be successful, then it will show in their recruitment and they will get NO MEMBERS... or new recruits will just quit.
Everybody starts as an "itty bitty tiny guild". Many guilds have become "itty bitty tiny guild" because of the way this game plays.
It's time for Cryptic to give back and throw these up and coming guilds, and the ghost town guilds (They are still standing because of Pride) a chance to be great, or be great once again.
There's your rebuttal Rev.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
Gosh, that sounds familiar.
I talked to my players. I told them it's going to be hard for us to get anywhere. I let them know some good options for larger guilds to check out and told them that there would be no resentment if that's what they wanted.
And they told me they were behind me and didn't want to leave.
Membership stands at 96 accounts. 20 of those have logged in within the last month. Only a handful of those are playing actively. And they are excited about strongholds and excited about the idea of building something together... and they want to do it as part of the guild they've been in for years, that they joined for the sake of the people in it... not somewhere else.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
A perfect example. Becky is a very experienced guild leader, with great ideas. I'm so glad to see her still around representing with her guild. Anyone looking for a guild would do swell in her guild.
Bottom line... Cryptic needs guilds like Becky's onboard with this update.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!