do we always have to reply same thing over and over again to other classes. cant they read previous posts about GWF .
every GWF suggested that roar had bug , but bug was it passing through CC immunity , but now its nerfed to sh/t power which no1 will use.
florish can easily be dodged with eyes closed , takedown is easily dodge with current shifts , and after mod 4 all shift powers will be more responsive , now takedown became more useless with no real dmg , they cld have removed the feat which increased takedown dmg by 25% , but no DEV decreased whole base dmg , so sent dmg is nothing , all class will have sharp weapons and GWF will have a blunt weapon now.
we r not even getting faster florish animation , so SM will have slowdown(takedown doesnt do as the name intended) and slowrish(not florish cause its toooo damnslow) .
IV path is useless , the only reason player used IV path was due too threatning rush , cause no actual stamina consumption , now they made stamin last 40% more still other class crying , but they dont know stamina consumed by GWF to chase all ranged class is way too much , most of the time b4 IV path GWF wld use all stamina then just try to catch them by walking till there stamina is slightly regenerated.
any1 posing here that GWF nerfs are good , plz post a video of GWF killing equally geared player of any class except GWF ofc, any other class with PVP guild can decimate all GWF players even which are 2k + GS above them , and thats the truth. tested and seen.
now since u r presenting ur argument that GWF is still OP or balanced , so plz show us in ur video . dont comment on it when u have not seen any GWF player playing in preview in PVP. in PVP GWF is nothing now , and even in live plz check leaderboards and u will see except 3 or 4 GWf all top players are HR or TR . sure GWF has some bugs but he is not point holder now but its been done by HR and TR.
plz think about what u type b4 posting ur comment and try to understand GWF players and there build and where they cming from. dont post baseless things subjected to ur imaginations.
No one used Roar before it was bugged! The only reason you use it now is to abuse and exploit a bugged encounter... It speaks volumes about ones character.
Furthermore I am playing on Preview and I do play with and against GWF, they take more damage but seem to be fine!
As far as if GWF will still be OP, I cannot say. Right now they seem toned down some but still very capable at pretty much everything they are doing on live albeit tanking 3 players solo.
You have a Sprint and an Unstoppable and now 3 Threatening Rushes. It was also overly abused an at will to close distance that hit for 5k, now you will need to use things wiser!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited July 2014
Nah, guy. Nobody used Roar before it could be feated to reduce the cooldown to negligible levels. It's been bugged for yonks, but the recharge was still too long for it to be worth people abusing.
Not to say it isn't being abused, only that your explanation is a little backwards.
(Over time, it's gone in and out of PvE builds mostly for the sake of determination gain. During the Deep Gash era, it wasn't being used because it wouldn't help spread bleed damage.)
Nah, guy. Nobody used Roar before it could be feated to reduce the cooldown to negligible levels. It's been bugged for yonks, but the recharge was still too long for it to be worth people abusing.
Not to say it isn't being abused, only that your explanation is a little backwards.
(Over time, it's gone in and out of PvE builds mostly for the sake of determination gain. During the Deep Gash era, it wasn't being used because it wouldn't help spread bleed damage.)
Ok then, thanks for better clarity..
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
First at all, Rip just see us, GWF-players, as "whinners who doesnt want to get our class nerfed because we like to faceroll and being OP!".
this being said, i want to make a note about your coment: Right now, GWFs are on a really clear disadvantage, not only due the nerfs on the class, but also due the buffs on others classes. Right now (again, im talking on pure especulation using my own maths), a GF is more viable on PvE and PvP than a GWF, why? due "Knight" encounters. Right now, GWFs, on test/preview, does little to no damage at all so, the class itself cant contribute to any party's global performance: AoE DPS dealt by HRs, CC made by CWs, Heals made by DCs and tank, "kiting" and damage buffs by GFs. GWFs can AoE DPS with a more "tankines" than a HR, but will do less damage than HRs due the new buffs on the class (as i said, this is pure especulation based on my own maths). If they keep with these nerfs on GWFs, no one will pick them for PvE almost for sure, that is the reason i said "left GWF class as it is right now on LIVE (i should had added "with some buffs" from this patch), because "that" GWF is the "balanced class" meant for buffed classes as i see them all right now.
Hop on Preview... I'll meet ya in there if ya like? You're speculation is wrong! GWF are still pretty awesome man, at least right now preview changes are not set yet!
I think you are worrying to much over things you are "Speculating" on instead of actually testing. I am testing stuff on preview and we all stand in a circle talking to each other dueling etc. So we get input from every class on our team and against. Its actually very friendly, no ganking or anything, people actually stop to talk and ask you questions, and say let me hit your shield see how much damage you take, or lower you gurrd I wanna test IBS.
I urge you to copy a toon an come try.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I play against a GWF, and with GWF, and have many GWF in my guild whom which I collaborate with on GWF.
I don't need to be a politician to see the damage the do to society,and the collapse of our economy either. One can be a well informed bipartisan also...
EDIT: I may not be helping the thread in a positive manner for GWF, however I can be a counterpoint to people that have not actually played the changes.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
My main is GF, and I am stoked with the changes. I switch to a GWF during mod 2-3, because... well you know.
Takedown MUST be a prone. Leave flourish and FLS as stuns. Leave the TR/Sprint tradeoff. I am even ok with unstoppble now. (Saying these both as a GF and a GWF). But, takedown must be a prone. The name alone...
Give one power to prone. Its damage has been reduced. Unstoppable lowered some. Sprint I havent gotten to test enough on my GWF. TR not so OP. But you gotta have one prone.
I will conceed GWF is OP in PVP right now. Not compared to equal HR/TR, but to DC, GF, CW for sure. HR getting tweaked a ton, and TR next mod it sounds like. But if they are OP now, don't make them into the gutter/no fun. Not being able to hit anything is not fun.
No one used Roar before it was bugged! The only reason you use it now is to abuse and exploit a bugged encounter... It speaks volumes about ones character.
This statement pretty much sums up what i said before.
1) You know very little of what you speak about
2) Your opinion on the matter is biased and you seem to just be interested in attacking a whole class cause you have some problem with it.
Why i say this: You first statement is false. Let's get facts straight. Roar was used in module 1 before Iron Vanguard as the best way for a swordmaster to deal with a perma TR or a CW. And still used by good swordmasters till now cause it's a ranged stun that allows you to not be kited, in exchange for the little damage it deals. Only with Iron Vanguard introduction to GWFs and threat rush/ FLS, GWFs sentinels stopped using Roar. Roar have been there for a long time. Also: good destroyers used to use it in PvP. Cause the shorter cooldown on it from Destroyer Tree have always been there. So, for a squishy destroyer Roar was, and still is, the best way to CC, avoid being kited and such. Cause, let's get this straight, the WAI Roar does 4 things:
- little damage
- little knockback
- determination gain (not really useful in PvP since you rarely hit multiple enemies)
- Roots the enemy in place
The last effect is the reason GWFs used it in module 1 and use it now. It's bugged, yes, cause it goes through CC immunity and if i got it right, silences players for 2 seconds (?). But if you're standing there and a GWF hits you with roar, then takedown and IBS, he's just using it the way it's meant to be used since it's SUPPOSED to root you in place. Read its description on the wiki page...
So, you don't know much if you say it was never used before. I recall fighting a Destro from a strong guild in module 1, and he was using this same strategy: roar, takedown, IBS, sprint to evade/ buy time, then come back to roar/ takedown/ IBS. With shorter cooldowns, that's the proactive way for a Destroyer to make up for his lack of tankyness.
Second: you opinion is biased. And that's pretty clear in your last statement. You call out an entire class, claiming they all use Roar only cause it's bugged. Dear Sir, have EVER crossed your mind that few players have the time to test powers deeply and take a look if they are bugged or not? And that Roar is now used more perhaps cause Destroyer tree got buffed and many GWFs tried to make Destro viable in PvP, and that with the cooldown reduction they get from the feat, takedown and Roar were the best choices? That perhaps people just picked up the buffed tree and used the 2 best PvP powers in it, bugged or not? Even if Roar was not bugged, it would still be just as useful, rooting enemies from range with reduced cooldown.
If you could stop for a moment to unleash your river of hatred over the class, you could realize that many GWFs only use what is best for them like any other class, bugged or not, just like any other class. Like HRs do with pathfinder paragon and PvP sets, or TRs do with permastealth.
My main is GF, and I am stoked with the changes. I switch to a GWF during mod 2-3, because... well you know.
Takedown MUST be a prone. Leave flourish and FLS as stuns. Leave the TR/Sprint tradeoff. I am even ok with unstoppble now. (Saying these both as a GF and a GWF). But, takedown must be a prone. The name alone...
Give one power to prone. Its damage has been reduced. Unstoppable lowered some. Sprint I havent gotten to test enough on my GWF. TR not so OP. But you gotta have one prone.
I will conceed GWF is OP in PVP right now. Not compared to equal HR/TR, but to DC, GF, CW for sure. HR getting tweaked a ton, and TR next mod it sounds like. But if they are OP now, don't make them into the gutter/no fun. Not being able to hit anything is not fun.
Pretty much, a balanced opinion. Yes, GWFs are currently OP, and as you say, at least when it comes to holding points, not as much as BiS HRs or TRs. Just cause HRs can self heal like a DC and tank like a GWF, and TRs can go on-off node and hide in stealth forever.
Many changes i agree with, but as you say, takedown prone removal is not needed and increasing Flourish damage when it's still useless cause it's so slow people can dodge it with both eyes closed, is another not really useful change.
Would they keep Roar original rooting effect only fixing the bugs, it woud've been fair. With Roar gone, FLS prone gone and Takedown gone, there's a huge lack of an opening move. Which is needed. Cause it can be seen in the video i posted how it ends up CW vs GWF with just flourish as our mighty opening move...
No one used Roar before it was bugged! The only reason you use it now is to abuse and exploit a bugged encounter... It speaks volumes about ones character.
It's knockback has always been situationally useful especially in some pve areas.
i'm not on pts, but i think i agree with some of these posts, just from a theoretical standpoint
in regards to the new sentinel aegis feat
right now, unstoppable by default gives 10-20% (based on patch notes)...with sentinel aegis you can increase this by 5 times
meaning you end up with 50-100% damage reduction...that just doesn't seem right haha...replacing one broken mechanic with another
honestly it was probably better the way it is in live right now (possible 100% damage reduction with unstoppable vs increased AC and defense)
my suggestion:
leave unstoppable to give 15-30% by default
let aegis give you the possible 100% damage resistance, but, reduce dmg output by ~30% for like 8 seconds after activating unstoppable
i understand what devs are trying to do, make you think "ahh let me play tank and spec sent"....instead of the current "ahh let me spec tanky dps with sentinel"...i don't believe the current changes are going to accomplish this, it's just going to make sentinel dps even nastier, since overall damage will remain the same, while tankiness will go up, if not, stay the same
perspective: 14.5k sent/destr gwf, mostly pvp
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
I am new to neverwinter, and I chose GWF because I like the idea of a semi-tank classes with reasonable DPS. Melee class is the only class I enjoy. From the feedback, I see that this class has:
* No escape mechanism which is fine, but in exchange lacks insufficient damage reduction.
* Once reaching an opponent it is unable to land it's attack
* Terrible DPS
* Opinionated Development team which insists that a class is over powered despite feedback and it's reflection in a ladder board.
Depending on the changes I may move on to other games, as the developers are taking drastic measurements to "apply balance" despite disagreements from it's users. I am no where near a built GW as I just started, can someone point me in the right directions? In general do you enjoy the game or do you regret spending time building your character?
I am guessing or hoping that the silence is because of drastic changes to GWF are coming - like what happened to the GF.
Massive buffs to alot of different powers and abilities, making each a big tradeoff with different specs - WONDERFUL! This makes true diversification in builds.
Even with that in mind, I would STRONGLY caution you on a few points:
- Remove CC immunity from Sprint, its rather ridiculous from a "cheese" standpoint. We can keep the DR - although dont be fooled that this really helps alot with tankiness, because once someone DOES control you, your out of sprint - so it really only curbs non-controlling attacks - which seems fitting.
- Give Takedown back its Prone AND damage. This is REALLY needed for a fighter melee class in PVP. I understand this allows to bypass deflect and should be more "rare" but a melee fighter class SHOULD be able to atleast have ONE prone. Maybe the solution here is to remove the "3 second CD if misses" but give it a 25% increased activation - making it harder to dodge.
- Focused Destroyer should be re-worked for more of a PVE focus. This removes some damage benefit from PVP, which is WHY giving takedown its prone back AND damage which THEN allows a deflect ignoring IBS makes sense - because it will ALL be at lower base damage, making it balanced.
I would also REALLY like to see all temporary "mark" abilities given a fixed short duration and not "removed when attacked" by the target... This will help players who choose, to balance their character around "mark" via Threat Rush and IBS.
i dont see any need to nerf new sprint or destroyer capstone since after fls and takedown nerfs we wont be able to so easy prone chain ppl and with newest changes to cw shiled we might to see final end of cw crying how gwf owns them easy in pvp
take down did do to much damage for prone skill same as fls but u cant nerf damage and remove prone they need to lose one of it not all and to high damage on them comes from trample
i'm not on pts, but i think i agree with some of these posts, just from a theoretical standpoint
in regards to the new sentinel aegis feat
right now, unstoppable by default gives 10-20% (based on patch notes)...with sentinel aegis you can increase this by 5 times
meaning you end up with 50-100% damage reduction...that just doesn't seem right haha...replacing one broken mechanic with another
honestly it was probably better the way it is in live right now (possible 100% damage reduction with unstoppable vs increased AC and defense)
my suggestion:
leave unstoppable to give 15-30% by default
let aegis give you the possible 100% damage resistance, but, reduce dmg output by ~30% for like 8 seconds after activating unstoppable
i understand what devs are trying to do, make you think "ahh let me play tank and spec sent"....instead of the current "ahh let me spec tanky dps with sentinel"...i don't believe the current changes are going to accomplish this, it's just going to make sentinel dps even nastier, since overall damage will remain the same, while tankiness will go up, if not, stay the same
perspective: 14.5k sent/destr gwf, mostly pvp
DR hard caps at 80% so you will never hit 100% damage reduction
I am new to neverwinter, and I chose GWF because I like the idea of a semi-tank classes with reasonable DPS. Melee class is the only class I enjoy. From the feedback, I see that this class has:
* No escape mechanism which is fine, but in exchange lacks insufficient damage reduction.
* Once reaching an opponent it is unable to land it's attack
* Terrible DPS
* Opinionated Development team which insists that a class is over powered despite feedback and it's reflection in a ladder board.
Depending on the changes I may move on to other games, as the developers are taking drastic measurements to "apply balance" despite disagreements from it's users. I am no where near a built GW as I just started, can someone point me in the right directions? In general do you enjoy the game or do you regret spending time building your character?
In general I have enjoyed playing my GWF for a long time. They have always had a great combination of tankiness and damage in PVP, and kind of in PVE.
If you are interested in running dungeons, I think the changes will affect you much less than in the PVP arena, where these changes will be detrimental to the class. I also think you are spot on, that while the class is arguable too strong against certain matchups, even on LIVE a good HR or TR can completely negate/counter a GWF.
As far as it needing a nerf, I have layed out very clearly what the issue is, why and how it can be fixed. The current changes are overboard and will make the class potentially sub-par in pvp. The only way to play a GWF will be with a decent group where you can focus on someone else controlling (like CW) for you to be able to land good damage. In theory that works, but in practice, PVP is alot more about "node holding" and if a GWF cant do that, other classes with more control/survivability will be favored.
GWF has always been the target of hate, even when TRs were kings, GWFs get the brunt end of the stick, even today as HRs are kings, GWFs are to blame...
The issue is other classes shine better in top end pvp, but the majority of players dont understand 1) how to pvp or 2) how to counter GWFs.
This gets WORSE when players get mis-matched (other threads on this) and you have a 10k GS CW versus a 16kGS+ GWF who knows how to play and kills the CW in 1 rotation. The GWF has cc immunity so the CW is literally helpless - for 99% of the CW population (there are a few who can really play their class!)
Overall, THIS mod is a turn for the worse, I think there has been plenty of feedback here and I would encourage you to keep at it, GWFs have always been strong, and I think for your purposes youll do just fine. Now once you get into top end PVP and have all rank 10s, perfect enchants, playing against the top 1% of the game population, youll notice your lacking a few things, but for the most part I think youll be just fine
i dont see any need to nerf new sprint or destroyer capstone since after fls and takedown nerfs we wont be able to so easy prone chain ppl and with newest changes to cw shiled we might to see final end of cw crying how gwf owns them easy in pvp
take down did do to much damage for prone skill same as fls but u cant nerf damage and remove prone they need to lose one of it not all and to high damage on them comes from trample
just wanted to clarify that FLS was such high damage because when you got IV it was still working off GF base damage and not GWF however the 15% damage to marked target and trample did also effect this
i dont see any need to nerf new sprint or destroyer capstone since after fls and takedown nerfs we wont be able to so easy prone chain ppl and with newest changes to cw shiled we might to see final end of cw crying how gwf owns them easy in pvp
take down did do to much damage for prone skill same as fls but u cant nerf damage and remove prone they need to lose one of it not all and to high damage on them comes from trample
Then need to nerf the NEW sprint is because it is only going to be abused and honestly make the class not fun. Trust me, there are builds being tested to abuse the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of CC immunity in sprint. Also this makes sprint > Unstoppable at max determination.
I am asking for Takedown to be UN-nerfed. I ma not asking for capstone to be touched. takedown only did good damage from the T4 feat PLUS full capstone. -> Look at a Sent who uses Takedown, how much did they do? Its a joke....
FLS -> I am fine with this nerf. It is an AOE which is why its better suited for stun and not Prone. Its also an AOE for damage hence why its supposed to hit less.
just wanted to clarify that FLS was such high damage because when you got IV it was still working off GF base damage and not GWF however the 15% damage to marked target and trample did also effect this
Isnt a character with almost double the base weapon damage SUPPOSED to deal almost double the damage on an encounter that another class dealt?
Thats more of an issue of the GF having too LOW weapon damage which caused them to scale the power up too high which then caused GWfs to deal too much damage with FLS. Its not that it wasnt WAI it is PROOF the GF weapon damage is too low.
Then need to nerf the NEW sprint is because it is only going to be abused and honestly make the class not fun. Trust me, there are builds being tested to abuse the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of CC immunity in sprint. Also this makes sprint > Unstoppable at max determination.
I am asking for Takedown to be UN-nerfed. I ma not asking for capstone to be touched. takedown only did good damage from the T4 feat PLUS full capstone. -> Look at a Sent who uses Takedown, how much did they do? Its a joke....
FLS -> I am fine with this nerf. It is an AOE which is why its better suited for stun and not Prone. Its also an AOE for damage hence why its supposed to hit less.
sentinel can hit very hard with takedown to and it is not ty to destroyer capstone or rank 4 feat or u forgoted about esay damage boost form con is 15%+from mark feat15% +15% from trample and this 45% damage boost in pvp on its encounters and it is tank
Isnt a character with almost double the base weapon damage SUPPOSED to deal almost double the damage on an encounter that another class dealt?
Thats more of an issue of the GF having too LOW weapon damage which caused them to scale the power up too high which then caused GWfs to deal too much damage with FLS. Its not that it wasnt WAI it is PROOF the GF weapon damage is too low.
sort of what i was getting at but it did effect the damage of FLS because of scaleing either way FLS is reworked now so it should be in line.
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nezraalMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then need to nerf the NEW sprint is because it is only going to be abused and honestly make the class not fun. Trust me, there are builds being tested to abuse the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of CC immunity in sprint. Also this makes sprint > Unstoppable at max determination.
I am asking for Takedown to be UN-nerfed. I ma not asking for capstone to be touched. takedown only did good damage from the T4 feat PLUS full capstone. -> Look at a Sent who uses Takedown, how much did they do? Its a joke....
FLS -> I am fine with this nerf. It is an AOE which is why its better suited for stun and not Prone. Its also an AOE for damage hence why its supposed to hit less.
Thank you for the response. At the end of the day I don't want to switch classes say HR because they are stronger. I want to play something which I "enjoy". Having balanced classes make a game enjoyable and the developers are lacking direction for game balance, and self-opinionated cutting off parts of player feedback and implementing partial changes. I will give it a shot for another week but already it seems like a class where you move around berseker style with hp, but in reality end up being a punch bag and can't land damages... because you can't really "catch" your opponents. And to make it worse they nerf the damages further and made it less tank. I am a newbie what do I know? But on the top it seems this way.
Can you point me to some guides and gear build up? From the responses I see that you are fine tuned in your class and know the ins and outs. Also may I add you to my friend list in-game?
sentinel can hit very hard with takedown to and it is not ty to destroyer capstone or rank 4 feat or u forgoted about esay damage boost form con is 15%+from mark feat15% +15% from trample and this 45% damage boost in pvp on its encounters and it is tank
Yes but one thing your missing is now that you cant prone, and have 3 charges on TR its going to be VERY hard to get a hit one someone with mark up.
Also now they stun instead of prone, because of tencity that 2 seconds turns into about 1 on a halfling (most of the pvp community). So your +15 trample lasts about as long as your IBS windup.
Also all GWFs run high Con and all players have damage boosts so your +15% from Con is negligible.
So TLDR: Its +15% +15% (30%) and only under VERY short duration and improbable situations will you get BOTH of those boosts.
If mark was swapped (my recommendation) to a 4-5 second base duration, this would help Sents hit harder via mark feat. (BTW you forgot mark already adds 8% -DR so its +23% damage not 15% with the feat).
Then bringing BACK the prone on Takedown makes Trample a MUCH more viable option again. -> again helps BOTH.
Yes but one thing your missing is now that you cant prone, and have 3 charges on TR its going to be VERY hard to get a hit one someone with mark up.
Also now they stun instead of prone, because of tencity that 2 seconds turns into about 1 on a halfling (most of the pvp community). So your +15 trample lasts about as long as your IBS windup.
Also all GWFs run high Con and all players have damage boosts so your +15% from Con is negligible.
So TLDR: Its +15% +15% (30%) and only under VERY short duration and improbable situations will you get BOTH of those boosts.
If mark was swapped (my recommendation) to a 4-5 second base duration, this would help Sents hit harder via mark feat. (BTW you forgot mark already adds 8% -DR so its +23% damage not 15% with the feat).
Then bringing BACK the prone on Takedown makes Trample a MUCH more viable option again. -> again helps BOTH.
real destroyers dose not have high con they have dex+str and bring prones back would not solve anything all what this would bring is another list of nerf on all gwf builds because gwf is high ranked in pvp ranking
yeah i forgot about 8% base from mark
im more for improveing base stuns times to 3.5 sec from 2 this would make it some 1.5- 2 sec on tentacy and controll resist players
let me emphasize this: focused destroyer is not a original pvp feet . BECAME strong in pvp thanks to the "tr". "tr" is iv. The iv must be individualized for gwf (that is nerf? no, CHANGE).
if you are thinking about "balancing pvp or pve", you should think of "gwf". the "gwf" is SUPERIOR to your tree / paragon. The tree / Paragon needs to be an arrangement and only that.
All agree that, whether in pvp or pve, the gwf doing more damage is fun. Similarly, all agree that, in live, the destroyer is resistant enough for pve and pvp.
Conclusion: the base damage of the class must be increased and consequentlyreduced the destroyer / sentinel feets . While that happens, powers / class features need to become more interesting, with different relations with each tree, including instigator.
This is precisely what is happening with the other classes while we stayed here bargaining damage for prone / unstoppable. No. The real work is being neglected.
I do not know if there's different people working on the balance of the classes. that is what it seems.
"time" is not an excuse. was not done NOTHING substantial to gwf health in the last module, and a lot of (creative) things for cw / gf +hr+new class. there is a vast difference in treatment in relation to classes of this game, since the beta.
by the way, strong or week, gwf die to me after lose the wms cancelation (and now sure strike).
real destroyers dose not have high con they have dex+str and bring prones back would not solve anything all what this would bring is another list of nerf on all gwf builds because gwf is high ranked in pvp ranking
yeah i forgot about 8% base from mark
im more for improveing base stuns times to 3.5 sec from 2 this would make it some 1.5- 2 sec on tentacy and controll resist players
If you PVP and dont have high Con, your doing it wrong.
Cong grants ARP and HP - the two best stats you can ask for... Only PVE destroyers dont have high Con. Since this is PVP discussion, good destroyers (or GWFs in general) all have high con.
Increasing stun to 3-3.5sec would be probably too strong for PVE then, it would be better than a prone.
Why do HRs/GFs/CWs all have prone abilities but not a melee fighter? Why are you against lettings GWFs have ONE prone so they can properly attack. Keeping it on Takedown means it HAS to be used in melee range, not a ranged prone. Which makes it MUCH harder to land.
Again, If you start nerfing all the damage of the GWF, might as well just delete the class. The two paths are horribly out of sync right now.
Destroyers: Deal great damage, have no control, and not very tanky.
Setns: Deal zero damage, haven o control and SUPER tanky.
They need to balance the two somewhere near the middle. Why is a Sentinel MORE tanky than the Prot GF?
Im fine with nerfs, but THIS IS A FIGHTER CLASS. They are supposed to "You are very tough and have the exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee."
What i dont understand is why the vast majority of these posts are about pvp.
There is so little pvp in this game and it is implemented poorly, yet the "balancing" seems to be all about what will some change do to pvp.
What i dont understand is why the vast majority of these posts are about pvp.
There is so little pvp in this game and it is implemented poorly, yet the "balancing" seems to be all about what will some change do to pvp.
because you didn't read most of the comments clearly, to find that the reason of all this changes started from the pvp whiners who whine about gwf being to op in pvp ..
ok any news about the gwf? and chrush did you fix the perfect elven battle?
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every GWF suggested that roar had bug , but bug was it passing through CC immunity , but now its nerfed to sh/t power which no1 will use.
florish can easily be dodged with eyes closed , takedown is easily dodge with current shifts , and after mod 4 all shift powers will be more responsive , now takedown became more useless with no real dmg , they cld have removed the feat which increased takedown dmg by 25% , but no DEV decreased whole base dmg , so sent dmg is nothing , all class will have sharp weapons and GWF will have a blunt weapon now.
we r not even getting faster florish animation , so SM will have slowdown(takedown doesnt do as the name intended) and slowrish(not florish cause its toooo damnslow) .
IV path is useless , the only reason player used IV path was due too threatning rush , cause no actual stamina consumption , now they made stamin last 40% more still other class crying , but they dont know stamina consumed by GWF to chase all ranged class is way too much , most of the time b4 IV path GWF wld use all stamina then just try to catch them by walking till there stamina is slightly regenerated.
any1 posing here that GWF nerfs are good , plz post a video of GWF killing equally geared player of any class except GWF ofc, any other class with PVP guild can decimate all GWF players even which are 2k + GS above them , and thats the truth. tested and seen.
now since u r presenting ur argument that GWF is still OP or balanced , so plz show us in ur video . dont comment on it when u have not seen any GWF player playing in preview in PVP. in PVP GWF is nothing now , and even in live plz check leaderboards and u will see except 3 or 4 GWf all top players are HR or TR . sure GWF has some bugs but he is not point holder now but its been done by HR and TR.
plz think about what u type b4 posting ur comment and try to understand GWF players and there build and where they cming from. dont post baseless things subjected to ur imaginations.
Furthermore I am playing on Preview and I do play with and against GWF, they take more damage but seem to be fine!
As far as if GWF will still be OP, I cannot say. Right now they seem toned down some but still very capable at pretty much everything they are doing on live albeit tanking 3 players solo.
You have a Sprint and an Unstoppable and now 3 Threatening Rushes. It was also overly abused an at will to close distance that hit for 5k, now you will need to use things wiser!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Not to say it isn't being abused, only that your explanation is a little backwards.
(Over time, it's gone in and out of PvE builds mostly for the sake of determination gain. During the Deep Gash era, it wasn't being used because it wouldn't help spread bleed damage.)
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Ok then, thanks for better clarity..
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Hop on Preview... I'll meet ya in there if ya like? You're speculation is wrong! GWF are still pretty awesome man, at least right now preview changes are not set yet!
I think you are worrying to much over things you are "Speculating" on instead of actually testing. I am testing stuff on preview and we all stand in a circle talking to each other dueling etc. So we get input from every class on our team and against. Its actually very friendly, no ganking or anything, people actually stop to talk and ask you questions, and say let me hit your shield see how much damage you take, or lower you gurrd I wanna test IBS.
I urge you to copy a toon an come try.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I don't need to be a politician to see the damage the do to society,and the collapse of our economy either. One can be a well informed bipartisan also...
EDIT: I may not be helping the thread in a positive manner for GWF, however I can be a counterpoint to people that have not actually played the changes.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Takedown MUST be a prone. Leave flourish and FLS as stuns. Leave the TR/Sprint tradeoff. I am even ok with unstoppble now. (Saying these both as a GF and a GWF). But, takedown must be a prone. The name alone...
Give one power to prone. Its damage has been reduced. Unstoppable lowered some. Sprint I havent gotten to test enough on my GWF. TR not so OP. But you gotta have one prone.
I will conceed GWF is OP in PVP right now. Not compared to equal HR/TR, but to DC, GF, CW for sure. HR getting tweaked a ton, and TR next mod it sounds like. But if they are OP now, don't make them into the gutter/no fun. Not being able to hit anything is not fun.
This statement pretty much sums up what i said before.
1) You know very little of what you speak about
2) Your opinion on the matter is biased and you seem to just be interested in attacking a whole class cause you have some problem with it.
Why i say this: You first statement is false. Let's get facts straight. Roar was used in module 1 before Iron Vanguard as the best way for a swordmaster to deal with a perma TR or a CW. And still used by good swordmasters till now cause it's a ranged stun that allows you to not be kited, in exchange for the little damage it deals. Only with Iron Vanguard introduction to GWFs and threat rush/ FLS, GWFs sentinels stopped using Roar. Roar have been there for a long time. Also: good destroyers used to use it in PvP. Cause the shorter cooldown on it from Destroyer Tree have always been there. So, for a squishy destroyer Roar was, and still is, the best way to CC, avoid being kited and such. Cause, let's get this straight, the WAI Roar does 4 things:
- little damage
- little knockback
- determination gain (not really useful in PvP since you rarely hit multiple enemies)
- Roots the enemy in place
The last effect is the reason GWFs used it in module 1 and use it now. It's bugged, yes, cause it goes through CC immunity and if i got it right, silences players for 2 seconds (?). But if you're standing there and a GWF hits you with roar, then takedown and IBS, he's just using it the way it's meant to be used since it's SUPPOSED to root you in place. Read its description on the wiki page...
So, you don't know much if you say it was never used before. I recall fighting a Destro from a strong guild in module 1, and he was using this same strategy: roar, takedown, IBS, sprint to evade/ buy time, then come back to roar/ takedown/ IBS. With shorter cooldowns, that's the proactive way for a Destroyer to make up for his lack of tankyness.
Second: you opinion is biased. And that's pretty clear in your last statement. You call out an entire class, claiming they all use Roar only cause it's bugged. Dear Sir, have EVER crossed your mind that few players have the time to test powers deeply and take a look if they are bugged or not? And that Roar is now used more perhaps cause Destroyer tree got buffed and many GWFs tried to make Destro viable in PvP, and that with the cooldown reduction they get from the feat, takedown and Roar were the best choices? That perhaps people just picked up the buffed tree and used the 2 best PvP powers in it, bugged or not? Even if Roar was not bugged, it would still be just as useful, rooting enemies from range with reduced cooldown.
If you could stop for a moment to unleash your river of hatred over the class, you could realize that many GWFs only use what is best for them like any other class, bugged or not, just like any other class. Like HRs do with pathfinder paragon and PvP sets, or TRs do with permastealth.
Pretty much, a balanced opinion. Yes, GWFs are currently OP, and as you say, at least when it comes to holding points, not as much as BiS HRs or TRs. Just cause HRs can self heal like a DC and tank like a GWF, and TRs can go on-off node and hide in stealth forever.
Many changes i agree with, but as you say, takedown prone removal is not needed and increasing Flourish damage when it's still useless cause it's so slow people can dodge it with both eyes closed, is another not really useful change.
Would they keep Roar original rooting effect only fixing the bugs, it woud've been fair. With Roar gone, FLS prone gone and Takedown gone, there's a huge lack of an opening move. Which is needed. Cause it can be seen in the video i posted how it ends up CW vs GWF with just flourish as our mighty opening move...
It's knockback has always been situationally useful especially in some pve areas.
in regards to the new sentinel aegis feat
right now, unstoppable by default gives 10-20% (based on patch notes)...with sentinel aegis you can increase this by 5 times
meaning you end up with 50-100% damage reduction...that just doesn't seem right haha...replacing one broken mechanic with another
honestly it was probably better the way it is in live right now (possible 100% damage reduction with unstoppable vs increased AC and defense)
my suggestion:
leave unstoppable to give 15-30% by default
let aegis give you the possible 100% damage resistance, but, reduce dmg output by ~30% for like 8 seconds after activating unstoppable
i understand what devs are trying to do, make you think "ahh let me play tank and spec sent"....instead of the current "ahh let me spec tanky dps with sentinel"...i don't believe the current changes are going to accomplish this, it's just going to make sentinel dps even nastier, since overall damage will remain the same, while tankiness will go up, if not, stay the same
perspective: 14.5k sent/destr gwf, mostly pvp
* No escape mechanism which is fine, but in exchange lacks insufficient damage reduction.
* Once reaching an opponent it is unable to land it's attack
* Terrible DPS
* Opinionated Development team which insists that a class is over powered despite feedback and it's reflection in a ladder board.
Depending on the changes I may move on to other games, as the developers are taking drastic measurements to "apply balance" despite disagreements from it's users. I am no where near a built GW as I just started, can someone point me in the right directions? In general do you enjoy the game or do you regret spending time building your character?
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non so più quel che dico e quel che faccio!
Eppure... è d'uopo... sforzati!
Bah, seti tu forse un uom?
day by day, wait for a real change. or maybe a releveant response, and not "iam "read" this thread, but i will ignore".
Tu sei Pagliaccio!
i dont see any need to nerf new sprint or destroyer capstone since after fls and takedown nerfs we wont be able to so easy prone chain ppl and with newest changes to cw shiled we might to see final end of cw crying how gwf owns them easy in pvp
take down did do to much damage for prone skill same as fls but u cant nerf damage and remove prone they need to lose one of it not all and to high damage on them comes from trample
DR hard caps at 80% so you will never hit 100% damage reduction
In general I have enjoyed playing my GWF for a long time. They have always had a great combination of tankiness and damage in PVP, and kind of in PVE.
If you are interested in running dungeons, I think the changes will affect you much less than in the PVP arena, where these changes will be detrimental to the class. I also think you are spot on, that while the class is arguable too strong against certain matchups, even on LIVE a good HR or TR can completely negate/counter a GWF.
As far as it needing a nerf, I have layed out very clearly what the issue is, why and how it can be fixed. The current changes are overboard and will make the class potentially sub-par in pvp. The only way to play a GWF will be with a decent group where you can focus on someone else controlling (like CW) for you to be able to land good damage. In theory that works, but in practice, PVP is alot more about "node holding" and if a GWF cant do that, other classes with more control/survivability will be favored.
GWF has always been the target of hate, even when TRs were kings, GWFs get the brunt end of the stick, even today as HRs are kings, GWFs are to blame...
The issue is other classes shine better in top end pvp, but the majority of players dont understand 1) how to pvp or 2) how to counter GWFs.
This gets WORSE when players get mis-matched (other threads on this) and you have a 10k GS CW versus a 16kGS+ GWF who knows how to play and kills the CW in 1 rotation. The GWF has cc immunity so the CW is literally helpless - for 99% of the CW population (there are a few who can really play their class!)
Overall, THIS mod is a turn for the worse, I think there has been plenty of feedback here and I would encourage you to keep at it, GWFs have always been strong, and I think for your purposes youll do just fine. Now once you get into top end PVP and have all rank 10s, perfect enchants, playing against the top 1% of the game population, youll notice your lacking a few things, but for the most part I think youll be just fine
just wanted to clarify that FLS was such high damage because when you got IV it was still working off GF base damage and not GWF however the 15% damage to marked target and trample did also effect this
Then need to nerf the NEW sprint is because it is only going to be abused and honestly make the class not fun. Trust me, there are builds being tested to abuse the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of CC immunity in sprint. Also this makes sprint > Unstoppable at max determination.
I am asking for Takedown to be UN-nerfed. I ma not asking for capstone to be touched. takedown only did good damage from the T4 feat PLUS full capstone. -> Look at a Sent who uses Takedown, how much did they do? Its a joke....
FLS -> I am fine with this nerf. It is an AOE which is why its better suited for stun and not Prone. Its also an AOE for damage hence why its supposed to hit less.
Isnt a character with almost double the base weapon damage SUPPOSED to deal almost double the damage on an encounter that another class dealt?
Thats more of an issue of the GF having too LOW weapon damage which caused them to scale the power up too high which then caused GWfs to deal too much damage with FLS. Its not that it wasnt WAI it is PROOF the GF weapon damage is too low.
sentinel can hit very hard with takedown to and it is not ty to destroyer capstone or rank 4 feat or u forgoted about esay damage boost form con is 15%+from mark feat15% +15% from trample and this 45% damage boost in pvp on its encounters and it is tank
sort of what i was getting at but it did effect the damage of FLS because of scaleing either way FLS is reworked now so it should be in line.
Thank you for the response. At the end of the day I don't want to switch classes say HR because they are stronger. I want to play something which I "enjoy". Having balanced classes make a game enjoyable and the developers are lacking direction for game balance, and self-opinionated cutting off parts of player feedback and implementing partial changes. I will give it a shot for another week but already it seems like a class where you move around berseker style with hp, but in reality end up being a punch bag and can't land damages... because you can't really "catch" your opponents. And to make it worse they nerf the damages further and made it less tank. I am a newbie
Can you point me to some guides and gear build up? From the responses I see that you are fine tuned in your class and know the ins and outs. Also may I add you to my friend list in-game?
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Yes but one thing your missing is now that you cant prone, and have 3 charges on TR its going to be VERY hard to get a hit one someone with mark up.
Also now they stun instead of prone, because of tencity that 2 seconds turns into about 1 on a halfling (most of the pvp community). So your +15 trample lasts about as long as your IBS windup.
Also all GWFs run high Con and all players have damage boosts so your +15% from Con is negligible.
So TLDR: Its +15% +15% (30%) and only under VERY short duration and improbable situations will you get BOTH of those boosts.
If mark was swapped (my recommendation) to a 4-5 second base duration, this would help Sents hit harder via mark feat. (BTW you forgot mark already adds 8% -DR so its +23% damage not 15% with the feat).
Then bringing BACK the prone on Takedown makes Trample a MUCH more viable option again. -> again helps BOTH.
real destroyers dose not have high con they have dex+str and bring prones back would not solve anything all what this would bring is another list of nerf on all gwf builds because gwf is high ranked in pvp ranking
yeah i forgot about 8% base from mark
im more for improveing base stuns times to 3.5 sec from 2 this would make it some 1.5- 2 sec on tentacy and controll resist players
if you are thinking about "balancing pvp or pve", you should think of "gwf". the "gwf" is SUPERIOR to your tree / paragon. The tree / Paragon needs to be an arrangement and only that.
All agree that, whether in pvp or pve, the gwf doing more damage is fun. Similarly, all agree that, in live, the destroyer is resistant enough for pve and pvp.
Conclusion: the base damage of the class must be increased and consequentlyreduced the destroyer / sentinel feets . While that happens, powers / class features need to become more interesting, with different relations with each tree, including instigator.
This is precisely what is happening with the other classes while we stayed here bargaining damage for prone / unstoppable. No. The real work is being neglected.
I do not know if there's different people working on the balance of the classes. that is what it seems.
"time" is not an excuse. was not done NOTHING substantial to gwf health in the last module, and a lot of (creative) things for cw / gf +hr+new class. there is a vast difference in treatment in relation to classes of this game, since the beta.
by the way, strong or week, gwf die to me after lose the wms cancelation (and now sure strike).
If you PVP and dont have high Con, your doing it wrong.
Cong grants ARP and HP - the two best stats you can ask for... Only PVE destroyers dont have high Con. Since this is PVP discussion, good destroyers (or GWFs in general) all have high con.
Increasing stun to 3-3.5sec would be probably too strong for PVE then, it would be better than a prone.
Why do HRs/GFs/CWs all have prone abilities but not a melee fighter? Why are you against lettings GWFs have ONE prone so they can properly attack. Keeping it on Takedown means it HAS to be used in melee range, not a ranged prone. Which makes it MUCH harder to land.
Again, If you start nerfing all the damage of the GWF, might as well just delete the class. The two paths are horribly out of sync right now.
Destroyers: Deal great damage, have no control, and not very tanky.
Setns: Deal zero damage, haven o control and SUPER tanky.
They need to balance the two somewhere near the middle. Why is a Sentinel MORE tanky than the Prot GF?
Im fine with nerfs, but THIS IS A FIGHTER CLASS. They are supposed to "You are very tough and have the exceptional ability to contain enemies in melee."
CONTAIN IN MELEE!
There is so little pvp in this game and it is implemented poorly, yet the "balancing" seems to be all about what will some change do to pvp.
because you didn't read most of the comments clearly, to find that the reason of all this changes started from the pvp whiners who whine about gwf being to op in pvp ..
ok any news about the gwf? and chrush did you fix the perfect elven battle?