The GWF will be harder, I agree but in comparison to other Melee he will still be king... You can filibuster or interpret what I say to justify your means all you want. The GWF has been a MONSTER for a long time! You are getting some nerfs, but you will still be king. You want survivability spec for it, the fact you guys could spec for survival and massive DPS was not WAI. You have the option to roll DPS , or Tank choose your path or decide on a hybrid build like everyone else.
Sorry if you take everything I say as anything but the mere truth, GWF are a wrecking force and had to much, now they will have some weakness heaven forbid!
I know what those subsequent classes can do to us the GF your castaway brothers and Yes, it sucks a good HR can completely nullify me. I have a block when thats gone I can Villains to try and gain ground unlike you that can Sprint or unstoppable. So in terms of GF vs HR and GWF vs HR you are still better!
Your suggested changes in the SM paragon would also benefit the GF as we too, are stuck with the same paragons remember...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited July 2014
ripyourlipsoff, seriously, just let it go, you are foul.
pando83, I don't get just how many times we have to repeat all those simple facts to everyone until they understand.
Yea well in another thread Pando said this! Heaven forbid you guys have a challenge.
Well I'm not going to defend someone just because I agreed with his last post here. But if anything, I wasn't talking about Live. I know GWF is pretty stong (but no, HRs are lame and ridiculously OP and if you can take one down easily he's not built properly) and perhaps need to be toned down, but instead of nerfing damage or defense (well they did, both) they go ahead and change the gameplay mechanics dramatically, for a much much worse outcome. The points pando83 made in this last post were all solid and that's on what I commented on.
Yea well in another thread Pando said this! Heaven forbid you guys have a challenge.
Yeah, and forbid you actually stop just rageposting and try to give useful feedback.
About your quote on me:
ow, i usually take down with my GWF most players easily, and usually can hold my own even against BiS players from other classes
the fact i can take down most players easily means just i have
strong attack
experience
and means my attack is good, usually.
Being a destroyer hybrid my attack power is usually enough to take down even tanky opponents. Which does not mean i am also very survivable or can tank multiple enemies. The thread was about a HR being able to tank me plus 1-2 other players, so it's quite obvious for me to talk about my attack.
So what you basically can read in my quote is that i have good attack and i am experienced enough to "hold my own" against BiS enemies (which, again, does not mean i win, just i can keep them occupied for long enough).
But obviously for you that is some kind of "i can beat anyone easily".
Please, stop trolling and, again, try to actually read what people say instead of writing your own conclusion.
Can you? So we can go back to feedback and don't have to clarify every wrong assumption you make in your own crusade against GWFs.
I am posting feedback in counter to yours, I too have Experience and a Strong attack, that's moot... You guys wont be happy until they revert your class to Faceroll again! It's nauseating
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
I am posting feedback in counter to yours, I too have Experience and a Strong attack, that's moot... You guys wont be happy until they revert your class to Faceroll again! It's nauseating
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
Thats fair, however if the GF was facerolling everyone with ease for the last year, you would have some game play experience against them and see what their strengths / weaknesses were. So feedback is not just for the class and he whom plays it its also about the classes that play against it. Just like in this thread another user asks for buffs because of HRs...
You cannot deny GWF have been TOP DOG for the last year? I think there is a difference between you guys playing well, and slotting burst powers to destroy people in 3-4 hits! I think the class has become so complacent with being so powerful now, you will actually have to be tactful!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited July 2014
Simmer down please, before I have to end up sending half of this thread to the depths. Thanks!
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl PWE Community Moderator
Thats fair, however if the GF was facerolling everyone with ease for the last year, you would have some game play experience against them and see what their strengths / weaknesses were. So feedback is not just for the class and he whom plays it its also about the classes that play against it. Just like in this thread another user asks for buffs because of HRs...
You cannot deny GWF have been TOP DOG for the last year? I think there is a difference between you guys playing well, and slotting burst powers to destroy people in 3-4 hits! I think the class has become so complacent with being so powerful now, you will actually have to be tactful!
Some changes to unstoppable were needed for pvp, however everything else is wrong. Good pvp'ers were able to dodge fls, takedown, and ibs with dodge or block. TR probably needed something. I would have just gone for a damage nerf or a charges nerf not both however. Have you actually watched the GWF and seen how long the animations are before they hit?
Some changes to unstoppable were needed for pvp, however everything else is wrong. Good pvp'ers were able to dodge fls, takedown, and ibs with dodge or block. TR probably needed something. I would have just gone for a damage nerf or a charges nerf not both however. Have you actually watched the GWF and seen how long the animations are before they hit?
Yes, but IV is a tanking paragon its from the Tank Class the Guardian Fighter, I don't know why they gave you guys the tanking paragon but buffed all the damage by 3 times the amount. I think they are reverting it back to a tanking path.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Yes, but IV is a tanking paragon its from the Tank Class the Guardian Fighter, I don't know why they gave you guys the tanking paragon but buffed all the damage by 3 times the amount. I think they are reverting it back to a tanking path.
There is no tanking in this game though. IV is a pvp path imo. Talking about tanking is why the GF is in bad shape. In a game that has been designed to not require using the trinity, a tank is just a substandard class that can't clear content well.
There is no tanking in this game though. IV is a pvp path imo. Talking about tanking is why the GF is in bad shape. In a game that has been designed to not require using the trinity, a tank is just a substandard class that can't clear content well.
Well there we agree! It looks like GF will not get much in the DR or DPS department. You guys can still do both though... I may swap to Warlock if the GF still isn't viable in end game pvp / pve
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well there we agree! It looks like GF will not get much in the DR or DPS department. You guys can still do both though... I may swap to Warlock if the GF still isn't viable in end game pvp / pve
Have you seen the changes for GF announced today? They will be wanted for end game if it stays like this, for sure.
This is exactly correct. I have posted here several times what the EXACT issues were with GWFs in LIVE. YOu make excellent points however one of the biggest reasons for the nerf is the matchmaking system.
It pits high ELO with low ELO to "balance teams" this causes a 16k+GS with perfects to face a 10k GS CW with lessers. Who then gets 1 rotation killed, or crit for 18k+ with IBS who complains they cant handle GWFs. GWFs are probably the easiest class to play TBH - mainly because of Unstoppable.
All that said, I 100% agree with you and am fearful for the future of GWFs. I know I DONT want to play my GWf mod 4, not because they wont be OP, but because they will feel helpless. Helpless in the sense that they wont be able to control things in order to hit them. Sentinels will have the ability to withstand damage but with all these crazy nerfs to damage like FLS and takedown, that really just hurts the other specs. The issue was never the SKILLS damage abilities but the feats of the Destroyer itself.
I too will post this one last time and let it go. Hopefully the DEVs will listen, probably not.
THE REAL ISSUE WITH GWFS:
1) Roar was a stun that gave determination, and has a LOW CD. This not only stunned characters for 2 seconds, but also built our ability to use unstoppable more often without taking damage. With the stun fix, less GWFs will slot this and HAVE to slot FLS - meaning LESS often stuns, LESS determination = LESS tanky GWFs (also less damage too since it was roar+takedown that delt alot and VERY often!)
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting HD. Many times I have ACT this and this one feat provided an INSANE amount of healing. Frankly this is what makes GWFs FEEL so tanky. NOW that this is gone, you will see a BIG difference in the GWFs ability ti live long duration fights.
3) Destroyer's Purpose Stacks. This one feat combined with the Capstone is what gave IBS and takedown their insane damage. If they re-focus this feat BACK to a PVE feat, removing it from PVP alligns GWFs damage to where it should probably be. Take this ONE feat off, and GWFs lose the ability to (by themsevles) get even over 10k takedowns. If the target has debuffs thats different. All you need here is to less the proc chance to 10% off ANY attack and itll be only used in PVE.
If you REALLY feel the need to nerf GWFs tankiness further, do the 15-30% Unstoppable. Im fine with that nerf as well eventhough its honestly not needed.
Im honestly even fine with prones moving to stuns due to deflect issue. Thats fine with me too. But you should realize thats a damage nerf to GWFs who heavily relied on prones to deal alot of damage.
You SHOULDNT nerf takedown or FLS damage at all TBH.
What I find is REALLY funny, GWFs have a massive 2h sword but their at wills and encounters (base) hit weaker than all the other classes... Its ONLY through the capstone feat that Destroyers really get damage. Sure Strike hits for what 600? My GFs at will hits for 2x that.... With half the weapon damage. A TR with little daggers hits for north of 1000, heck even "cloud of steel" hits harder and thats throwing a little dagger......
GWFs NEED close combat "control" abilities to be able to deal damage, sure they dont need prones. But overall I think some of these nerfs are a little overbaord.
I will reply to you because your not a troll.
I take great issue with your #3.
Removing Destroyers Purpose from the PvP Destroyer would wreck the Destroyer as much as any of the current Mod 4 changes. I'm not sure why you would even suggest that TBH. Before Destroyers Purpose, Sentinel was literally the only viable spec for PvP, as a Destroyer I certainly can't support that.
If you understand that it's a gear related issue certainly you know that VS people in Profound: IBS+DEST PURP crits for around 7.5k average with Peferct Vorpal. With a way lower average when you include non crits which are about 65% of IBS strikes since only 30-40% of attacks will actually be crits. (yes I have parsed many matches)
The big 18k hits people talk about really only happen on people with little to no tenacity and low defense when the attacker is using P.Vorp. or G.Pla., and are not actually the norm.
I'm not looking to make GWF PvP Sentinel only again i'd rather keep the mod 4 changes than remove Destroyers Purpose.
This is exactly correct. I have posted here several times what the EXACT issues were with GWFs in LIVE. YOu make excellent points however one of the biggest reasons for the nerf is the matchmaking system.
It pits high ELO with low ELO to "balance teams" this causes a 16k+GS with perfects to face a 10k GS CW with lessers. Who then gets 1 rotation killed, or crit for 18k+ with IBS who complains they cant handle GWFs. GWFs are probably the easiest class to play TBH - mainly because of Unstoppable.
All that said, I 100% agree with you and am fearful for the future of GWFs. I know I DONT want to play my GWf mod 4, not because they wont be OP, but because they will feel helpless. Helpless in the sense that they wont be able to control things in order to hit them. Sentinels will have the ability to withstand damage but with all these crazy nerfs to damage like FLS and takedown, that really just hurts the other specs. The issue was never the SKILLS damage abilities but the feats of the Destroyer itself.
I too will post this one last time and let it go. Hopefully the DEVs will listen, probably not.
THE REAL ISSUE WITH GWFS:
1) Roar was a stun that gave determination, and has a LOW CD. This not only stunned characters for 2 seconds, but also built our ability to use unstoppable more often without taking damage. With the stun fix, less GWFs will slot this and HAVE to slot FLS - meaning LESS often stuns, LESS determination = LESS tanky GWFs (also less damage too since it was roar+takedown that delt alot and VERY often!)
2) Unstoppable Recovery was NOT respecting HD. Many times I have ACT this and this one feat provided an INSANE amount of healing. Frankly this is what makes GWFs FEEL so tanky. NOW that this is gone, you will see a BIG difference in the GWFs ability ti live long duration fights.
3) Destroyer's Purpose Stacks. This one feat combined with the Capstone is what gave IBS and takedown their insane damage. If they re-focus this feat BACK to a PVE feat, removing it from PVP alligns GWFs damage to where it should probably be. Take this ONE feat off, and GWFs lose the ability to (by themsevles) get even over 10k takedowns. If the target has debuffs thats different. All you need here is to less the proc chance to 10% off ANY attack and itll be only used in PVE.
If you REALLY feel the need to nerf GWFs tankiness further, do the 15-30% Unstoppable. Im fine with that nerf as well eventhough its honestly not needed.
Im honestly even fine with prones moving to stuns due to deflect issue. Thats fine with me too. But you should realize thats a damage nerf to GWFs who heavily relied on prones to deal alot of damage.
You SHOULDNT nerf takedown or FLS damage at all TBH.
What I find is REALLY funny, GWFs have a massive 2h sword but their at wills and encounters (base) hit weaker than all the other classes... Its ONLY through the capstone feat that Destroyers really get damage. Sure Strike hits for what 600? My GFs at will hits for 2x that.... With half the weapon damage. A TR with little daggers hits for north of 1000, heck even "cloud of steel" hits harder and thats throwing a little dagger......
GWFs NEED close combat "control" abilities to be able to deal damage, sure they dont need prones. But overall I think some of these nerfs are a little overbaord.
I honestly don't think you should bring the TR. Daggers and knife logic in to this because it's a fantasy game and in this fantasy game they're supposed to be the hardest hitting class. But if we're bringing logic in then so be it. No halfling GWFs. FLS is impossible because the shield isn't even there.. What kind of warrior gets scared by another dude roaring. How does take down even work on GFs and other GWFs who have heavy armor in fact how does it work on anyone if the actual blade doesn't hurt or take them down they why should the hilt... Why aren't the GWFs fatigue after they turned in to a big red monster and unleashed everything they got?
I honestly don't think you should bring the TR. Daggers and knife logic in to this because it's a fantasy game and in this fantasy game they're supposed to be the hardest hitting class. But if we're bringing logic in then so be it. No halfling GWFs. FLS is impossible because the shield isn't even there.. What kind of warrior gets scared by another dude roaring. How does take down even work on GFs and other GWFs who have heavy armor in fact how does it work on anyone if the actual blade doesn't hurt or take them down they why should the hilt... Why aren't the GWFs fatigue after they turned in to a big red monster and unleashed everything they got?
the point is: gwf has by far and handily, the worst base damage of the game. class needs to "A" - a lot of stacks created in special conditions, "B" the opportunity to "grind the enemy slowly." (what is sad by a 2 hands sword)
yes, the old iv have both, but the "New gwf" nothing. seems to me that the idea of balance is "if the class has an excess of it, you cut, and improves other aspect (dilemmas?). BUT lost utility in Module 2 to preserve damage (destroyer only) now lose control, "tank" and damage (13% in past and now takedown/iv) to gain... nothing.
ah, now i run like the wind ... but the wind dont do dps ...
ps: now i see the new changes in gf/ranger... that gwf thread is a big joke... for what, my good lord, you need a sentinel to "tank" or destroyer for dps?
Good pvp'ers were able to dodge fls, takedown, and ibs with dodge or block.
Blunt lie all i all. Since gwf got IV path dodges was just a time delay from landing Take down and once you got Take down in the FS and IBS followed or FS into a crowd you always got at least one and the cc chain followed.
TR was a game changer and before bleed was changed and module 3 we all used FS instead of roar.
TR does 2-4 k and can be spammed until the poor victim ran out of dodges and then take down landed as it only had 3 sec cold down if missed.
That changed to something even more efficient the famous roar with 6-7 sec cool down instead of FS whish made it even easer to land Take down and IBS.
I stopped playing gwf just because it was to OP plain and simple. Going out of most pvp matches 12+kills and 0-2 kills and that being at enemy base most of the time just got a bit boring much like eating stake every day to much of the good tend to take the thrill out of it.
There are always talk about players that can handle gwfs just dont know how to play and that is some serious bull****.
We will have to watch and see what these changes will bring in terms of balance but i have no hopes what so ever that gwfs will be easier to handle in pvp after stam change and run immunity/30%dr change.
Gwfs is a crafty bunch and from those changes I seen so far adapting overcome and conquer is exactly what the gwfs will do. (in fact am pretty sure that as movability is a key factor and so is cc immunity in pvp gwfs will once they changed around some feats/powers and gear come out even stronger then before even if they require some more skill then facrolling keyboard in future).
If right now, we, GWF-players, have a lot of hard times dealing with TRs, HRs, CWs and GFs, afters these buffs on them (yes, applied on us too... "wow") i dont want to imagine how harder it will become after these buffs... TBH, right now, you are unbalancing and even broken the game.
Dam clonkyo1 you never let me down when i need a laugh :rolleyes:.
I just went pugging with my gwf just for the fun of it as i dont play him any more and let me see mm 21-0, 18-1, 27-0, 9-5(hard one that we lost) was my score so much for *hard time dealing with whatever just lol.
That the changed hr to the worse, nerfed cws dam given you the ability to shift trough immunity to ccs between sprint and unstop + 40% less stam drain when sprinting, completely missed your radar naturally as usal..
Why not suggest that they reverse the all the nerfs and keep 40% less stam when sprinting and the 30%DR/immunity while doing so also, am sure you going to need it badly now that they buffed all the other classes so hard.
Dont forget to visit the DCs forum and suggest they lessen their dam so they hurt you to much :eek:.....
I won't disagree that the top 20 is not a totally accurate picture of the whole, but I don't have a way to parse the leaderboard better with out posting dozens of pictures. And I am not saying GWF isn't powerful, I'm just saying it's not the total GWF domination people say it is. I'm not even saying GWF doesn't need some adjustments. I'm just saying they need to be less than the current MOD 4 amount.
I'm mostly fine with 15/30, i'm also ok with a minor reduction in damage.
The only thing I really am suggesting for is a lessening of the FLS damage reduction, perhaps 10-15% vs 30%, FLS is also PVE tool and regularly equals around 15% of my damage in PvE second only to Wicked Strike. And I feel Takedown needs to prone because Destroyer GWF's really need at least one reliable lead into IBS. The damage on Takedown can be reduced as long as the net effect is that it's still has a function.
And I have done as much testing as I can on the test server, though what I can really test is limited since the PVP que never runs.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Blunt lie all i all. Since gwf got IV path dodges was just a time delay from landing Take down and once you got Take down in the FS and IBS followed or FS into a crowd you always got at least one and the cc chain followed.
TR was a game changer and before bleed was changed and module 3 we all used FS instead of roar.
TR does 2-4 k and can be spammed until the poor victim ran out of dodges and then take down landed as it only had 3 sec cold down if missed.
That changed to something even more efficient the famous roar with 6-7 sec cool down instead of FS whish made it even easer to land Take down and IBS.
I stopped playing gwf just because it was to OP plain and simple. Going out of most pvp matches 12+kills and 0-2 kills and that being at enemy base most of the time just got a bit boring much like eating stake every day to much of the good tend to take the thrill out of it.
There are always talk about players that can handle gwfs just dont know how to play and that is some serious bull****.
We will have to watch and see what these changes will bring in terms of balance but i have no hopes what so ever that gwfs will be easier to handle in pvp after stam change and run immunity/30%dr change.
Gwfs is a crafty bunch and from those changes I seen so far adapting overcome and conquer is exactly what the gwfs will do. (in fact am pretty sure that as movability is a key factor and so is cc immunity in pvp gwfs will once they changed around some feats/powers and gear come out even stronger then before even if they require some more skill then facrolling keyboard in future).
It is not a lie. That is the truth. I can do that, consistantly on live right now, and have been. As I said plenty of times concerning this. the only problem I ever had was the garranteed cc chain rotation with no way out of it because prones do not respect tenacity. Once you're hit with one, you're at the mercy at every single one of those skills back to back. But you can dodge consistantly from getting hit from them. Only trouble is stamina isnt always in your favor in those encounters.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
I have both a GF and a GWF. Rip's analysis is (mostly) spot-on. My impression of most GWFs is that since they do not have anything to compare it to they do not see how their class is OP. That unstoppable is likely better than villians menace and fighter's recovery combined and procs twice as often. That their dailies 'are'nt that good' even though avalanch has more potential DPS than any daily in the game. And I am sure most encouters have dissapointing outcomes compared to IBS. Because they do. Basically the GWF for the last 2 mods has been easy mode. And again I have one and I use him. And if you don't also have a GF to compare it to you are likely blind to this.
I am posting feedback in counter to yours, I too have Experience and a Strong attack, that's moot... You guys wont be happy until they revert your class to Faceroll again! It's nauseating
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
Many GWFs already proposed several nerfs and changes to the class. Plus, all that's being said is that some stuff must be changed such as faster animation on flourish and other things i already explained in detail to you above. I really explained how things work and why some changes to flourish and FLS are needed. Plus, i also explained how Roar original effect (rooting) being removed ON TOP of the fixes to the bugs, was not really needed.
Yet you wrote a false statement, saying that "we want our class reverted to faceroll", even though the proposed changes do not suggest it.
Right now HRs and even perma TRs are ALREADY more survivable and able to troll multiple enemies compared to GWFs. On live. You'd have more experience, you'd have noticed this. Permas can go on-off point and keep trolling the enemy base against multiple enemies way longer than any tank GWF does. GWFs are not used as "point holders" anymore. The job is done by TRs, HRs and tank DCs.
Also, i already explained why Unstoppable DR is not really an issue if you know how to play. Simple reason is, GWFs already can't tank multiple enemies due to healing depression, and in 1v1 the enemy is not supposed to be hitting you during unstoppable. If people knew how to play (not use encounters on an Unstoppable GWF), they wouldn't have a problem with unstoppable and the slower determination gain would have been enough. Even in Mod 4, if you're going to use your encounters on an Unstoppable GWF even with just 15% more DR, you'd be a ****, wasting your DPS.
There are many things that are out of reality in your "feedback", and people tried to tell you this multiple times.
As for the changes WE proposed on flourish and the other stuff, it's a simple matter: if you play a GWF, you know few things.
1) you can't compare it to a HR or TR. These classes have tools to avoid damage entirely (TR has ITC, stealth and dodge roll immunities, HR is RANGED CLASS with 5 immunity dodges), while GWFs are a melee class with no immunity to damage. Which means, they are being hit all the time. Of course even Destroyers are more tanky than a HR or TR. Else, they would not even reach the enemy. But if you want to give them stealth or real ranged powers, you're free to drop their survivability to such levels.
2) To deal damage, you should know, you've to actually catch the enemy. And fast, since a GWF can't sit there and block like a GF. Now, with all ranged CC gone and FLS stun not being enough to link a takedown, how would you catch a perma TR, a HR or a CW. Let me hear.
Takedown is dodged with both eyes closed by any good CW/ TR/ HR and even GWF if you use it as your opening move. Any TR/ HR and CW also can dodge flourish, timing their dodge immunity move with its slow animation. IBS is not even to mention. It can land only if it follows a prone move. But with all prones gone, it can land only if following a takedown.
Now please, let us hear how your imaginary GWF would catch a CW/ HR/ or, even more difficult, permastealth TR in end game PvP, in module 4.
Comments
Sorry if you take everything I say as anything but the mere truth, GWF are a wrecking force and had to much, now they will have some weakness heaven forbid!
I know what those subsequent classes can do to us the GF your castaway brothers and Yes, it sucks a good HR can completely nullify me. I have a block when thats gone I can Villains to try and gain ground unlike you that can Sprint or unstoppable. So in terms of GF vs HR and GWF vs HR you are still better!
Your suggested changes in the SM paragon would also benefit the GF as we too, are stuck with the same paragons remember...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
pando83, I don't get just how many times we have to repeat all those simple facts to everyone until they understand.
Yea well in another thread Pando said this! Heaven forbid you guys have a challenge.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well I'm not going to defend someone just because I agreed with his last post here. But if anything, I wasn't talking about Live. I know GWF is pretty stong (but no, HRs are lame and ridiculously OP and if you can take one down easily he's not built properly) and perhaps need to be toned down, but instead of nerfing damage or defense (well they did, both) they go ahead and change the gameplay mechanics dramatically, for a much much worse outcome. The points pando83 made in this last post were all solid and that's on what I commented on.
Yeah, and forbid you actually stop just rageposting and try to give useful feedback.
About your quote on me:
the fact i can take down most players easily means just i have
strong attack
experience
and means my attack is good, usually.
Being a destroyer hybrid my attack power is usually enough to take down even tanky opponents. Which does not mean i am also very survivable or can tank multiple enemies. The thread was about a HR being able to tank me plus 1-2 other players, so it's quite obvious for me to talk about my attack.
So what you basically can read in my quote is that i have good attack and i am experienced enough to "hold my own" against BiS enemies (which, again, does not mean i win, just i can keep them occupied for long enough).
But obviously for you that is some kind of "i can beat anyone easily".
Please, stop trolling and, again, try to actually read what people say instead of writing your own conclusion.
Can you? So we can go back to feedback and don't have to clarify every wrong assumption you make in your own crusade against GWFs.
Destroyers shouldn't be able to be tanky, your a DPS class that does 40% more DPS then a tanky HR. You could go low DPS high survival too!
As far as HR I totally agree with you they're ridiculous atm, but that doesn't mean GWF need to be boosted!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This does not happen on my GWF. Its a bonus DR from what you already have, so I would assume Sentinel's Aegis works the same.
But you don't play it. There is a reason I don't post in the GF feedback threads. I don't play it and I don't have a good understanding of all the abilities and requirements of the class. You don't understand how the GWF works, how it's feats work, what gear it needs to make things work, what is required to play one well, how to counter one well.
Have to agree with this.
Thats fair, however if the GF was facerolling everyone with ease for the last year, you would have some game play experience against them and see what their strengths / weaknesses were. So feedback is not just for the class and he whom plays it its also about the classes that play against it. Just like in this thread another user asks for buffs because of HRs...
You cannot deny GWF have been TOP DOG for the last year? I think there is a difference between you guys playing well, and slotting burst powers to destroy people in 3-4 hits! I think the class has become so complacent with being so powerful now, you will actually have to be tactful!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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Some changes to unstoppable were needed for pvp, however everything else is wrong. Good pvp'ers were able to dodge fls, takedown, and ibs with dodge or block. TR probably needed something. I would have just gone for a damage nerf or a charges nerf not both however. Have you actually watched the GWF and seen how long the animations are before they hit?
Yes, but IV is a tanking paragon its from the Tank Class the Guardian Fighter, I don't know why they gave you guys the tanking paragon but buffed all the damage by 3 times the amount. I think they are reverting it back to a tanking path.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
There is no tanking in this game though. IV is a pvp path imo. Talking about tanking is why the GF is in bad shape. In a game that has been designed to not require using the trinity, a tank is just a substandard class that can't clear content well.
Well there we agree! It looks like GF will not get much in the DR or DPS department. You guys can still do both though... I may swap to Warlock if the GF still isn't viable in end game pvp / pve
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Have you seen the changes for GF announced today? They will be wanted for end game if it stays like this, for sure.
Yea, but we will be an under powered buff bot! Not much fun.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
ummm please enlighten me when it ever said this
because as long as i've been playing it has always said this
"Unleash a mighty battle roar in front of you, interrupting and pushing your opponents back, and building Determination for every target hit."
nowhere does it say Root
I will reply to you because your not a troll.
I take great issue with your #3.
Removing Destroyers Purpose from the PvP Destroyer would wreck the Destroyer as much as any of the current Mod 4 changes. I'm not sure why you would even suggest that TBH. Before Destroyers Purpose, Sentinel was literally the only viable spec for PvP, as a Destroyer I certainly can't support that.
If you understand that it's a gear related issue certainly you know that VS people in Profound: IBS+DEST PURP crits for around 7.5k average with Peferct Vorpal. With a way lower average when you include non crits which are about 65% of IBS strikes since only 30-40% of attacks will actually be crits. (yes I have parsed many matches)
The big 18k hits people talk about really only happen on people with little to no tenacity and low defense when the attacker is using P.Vorp. or G.Pla., and are not actually the norm.
I'm not looking to make GWF PvP Sentinel only again i'd rather keep the mod 4 changes than remove Destroyers Purpose.
I honestly don't think you should bring the TR. Daggers and knife logic in to this because it's a fantasy game and in this fantasy game they're supposed to be the hardest hitting class. But if we're bringing logic in then so be it. No halfling GWFs. FLS is impossible because the shield isn't even there.. What kind of warrior gets scared by another dude roaring. How does take down even work on GFs and other GWFs who have heavy armor in fact how does it work on anyone if the actual blade doesn't hurt or take them down they why should the hilt... Why aren't the GWFs fatigue after they turned in to a big red monster and unleashed everything they got?
the point is: gwf has by far and handily, the worst base damage of the game. class needs to "A" - a lot of stacks created in special conditions, "B" the opportunity to "grind the enemy slowly." (what is sad by a 2 hands sword)
yes, the old iv have both, but the "New gwf" nothing. seems to me that the idea of balance is "if the class has an excess of it, you cut, and improves other aspect (dilemmas?). BUT lost utility in Module 2 to preserve damage (destroyer only) now lose control, "tank" and damage (13% in past and now takedown/iv) to gain... nothing.
ah, now i run like the wind ... but the wind dont do dps ...
ps: now i see the new changes in gf/ranger... that gwf thread is a big joke... for what, my good lord, you need a sentinel to "tank" or destroyer for dps?
TR was a game changer and before bleed was changed and module 3 we all used FS instead of roar.
TR does 2-4 k and can be spammed until the poor victim ran out of dodges and then take down landed as it only had 3 sec cold down if missed.
That changed to something even more efficient the famous roar with 6-7 sec cool down instead of FS whish made it even easer to land Take down and IBS.
I stopped playing gwf just because it was to OP plain and simple. Going out of most pvp matches 12+kills and 0-2 kills and that being at enemy base most of the time just got a bit boring much like eating stake every day to much of the good tend to take the thrill out of it.
There are always talk about players that can handle gwfs just dont know how to play and that is some serious bull****.
We will have to watch and see what these changes will bring in terms of balance but i have no hopes what so ever that gwfs will be easier to handle in pvp after stam change and run immunity/30%dr change.
Gwfs is a crafty bunch and from those changes I seen so far adapting overcome and conquer is exactly what the gwfs will do. (in fact am pretty sure that as movability is a key factor and so is cc immunity in pvp gwfs will once they changed around some feats/powers and gear come out even stronger then before even if they require some more skill then facrolling keyboard in future).
Dam clonkyo1 you never let me down when i need a laugh :rolleyes:.
I just went pugging with my gwf just for the fun of it as i dont play him any more and let me see mm 21-0, 18-1, 27-0, 9-5(hard one that we lost) was my score so much for *hard time dealing with whatever just lol.
That the changed hr to the worse, nerfed cws dam given you the ability to shift trough immunity to ccs between sprint and unstop + 40% less stam drain when sprinting, completely missed your radar naturally as usal..
Why not suggest that they reverse the all the nerfs and keep 40% less stam when sprinting and the 30%DR/immunity while doing so also, am sure you going to need it badly now that they buffed all the other classes so hard.
Dont forget to visit the DCs forum and suggest they lessen their dam so they hurt you to much :eek:.....
I'm mostly fine with 15/30, i'm also ok with a minor reduction in damage.
The only thing I really am suggesting for is a lessening of the FLS damage reduction, perhaps 10-15% vs 30%, FLS is also PVE tool and regularly equals around 15% of my damage in PvE second only to Wicked Strike. And I feel Takedown needs to prone because Destroyer GWF's really need at least one reliable lead into IBS. The damage on Takedown can be reduced as long as the net effect is that it's still has a function.
And I have done as much testing as I can on the test server, though what I can really test is limited since the PVP que never runs.
It is not a lie. That is the truth. I can do that, consistantly on live right now, and have been. As I said plenty of times concerning this. the only problem I ever had was the garranteed cc chain rotation with no way out of it because prones do not respect tenacity. Once you're hit with one, you're at the mercy at every single one of those skills back to back. But you can dodge consistantly from getting hit from them. Only trouble is stamina isnt always in your favor in those encounters.
I have both a GF and a GWF. Rip's analysis is (mostly) spot-on. My impression of most GWFs is that since they do not have anything to compare it to they do not see how their class is OP. That unstoppable is likely better than villians menace and fighter's recovery combined and procs twice as often. That their dailies 'are'nt that good' even though avalanch has more potential DPS than any daily in the game. And I am sure most encouters have dissapointing outcomes compared to IBS. Because they do. Basically the GWF for the last 2 mods has been easy mode. And again I have one and I use him. And if you don't also have a GF to compare it to you are likely blind to this.
Many GWFs already proposed several nerfs and changes to the class. Plus, all that's being said is that some stuff must be changed such as faster animation on flourish and other things i already explained in detail to you above. I really explained how things work and why some changes to flourish and FLS are needed. Plus, i also explained how Roar original effect (rooting) being removed ON TOP of the fixes to the bugs, was not really needed.
Yet you wrote a false statement, saying that "we want our class reverted to faceroll", even though the proposed changes do not suggest it.
Right now HRs and even perma TRs are ALREADY more survivable and able to troll multiple enemies compared to GWFs. On live. You'd have more experience, you'd have noticed this. Permas can go on-off point and keep trolling the enemy base against multiple enemies way longer than any tank GWF does. GWFs are not used as "point holders" anymore. The job is done by TRs, HRs and tank DCs.
Also, i already explained why Unstoppable DR is not really an issue if you know how to play. Simple reason is, GWFs already can't tank multiple enemies due to healing depression, and in 1v1 the enemy is not supposed to be hitting you during unstoppable. If people knew how to play (not use encounters on an Unstoppable GWF), they wouldn't have a problem with unstoppable and the slower determination gain would have been enough. Even in Mod 4, if you're going to use your encounters on an Unstoppable GWF even with just 15% more DR, you'd be a ****, wasting your DPS.
There are many things that are out of reality in your "feedback", and people tried to tell you this multiple times.
As for the changes WE proposed on flourish and the other stuff, it's a simple matter: if you play a GWF, you know few things.
1) you can't compare it to a HR or TR. These classes have tools to avoid damage entirely (TR has ITC, stealth and dodge roll immunities, HR is RANGED CLASS with 5 immunity dodges), while GWFs are a melee class with no immunity to damage. Which means, they are being hit all the time. Of course even Destroyers are more tanky than a HR or TR. Else, they would not even reach the enemy. But if you want to give them stealth or real ranged powers, you're free to drop their survivability to such levels.
2) To deal damage, you should know, you've to actually catch the enemy. And fast, since a GWF can't sit there and block like a GF. Now, with all ranged CC gone and FLS stun not being enough to link a takedown, how would you catch a perma TR, a HR or a CW. Let me hear.
Takedown is dodged with both eyes closed by any good CW/ TR/ HR and even GWF if you use it as your opening move. Any TR/ HR and CW also can dodge flourish, timing their dodge immunity move with its slow animation. IBS is not even to mention. It can land only if it follows a prone move. But with all prones gone, it can land only if following a takedown.
Now please, let us hear how your imaginary GWF would catch a CW/ HR/ or, even more difficult, permastealth TR in end game PvP, in module 4.