Deft Strike, one of our encounters, used to be an At-Will in the place of Cloud of Steel. Why the devs changed it, I have no clue. Impact Shot is no longer usable so there's not much point in nerfing it further or replacing it.
Probably some time in alpha as I remember using Cloud of Steel on closed beta weekend one. (I was getting it confused with the GF's second at will for a while so pretty much used it in the worst way possible, but I did use it.)
Neverwinter players are stubborn things....until you strip them down to bone. (Cursed players, my flowers, MINE!) Oh how I plotted their demise.
Tell me, when CW's chain-CC people from an 80' range and your opponents can't do anything to react while they get sent to spawn, this is what you describe as an unfair advantage, right? So by your standards, your own class is cheating. Goodness, that's just atrocious and should be nerfed.
Not with that mindset, no.
It's like this, friend. The TR's Stealth simply eliminates your "range" and allow ourselves to close in on you. We have skills and feats that allow us to extend Stealth, and when built in a certain way, we can extend this even further. In order to attack you, we need to use our At-Wills, sacrificing burst DPS for low sustained DPS. And sometimes we have to go into melee range to attack you, thereby risking our "unfair advantage" towards your class.
Your CW class is a long-ranged, cloth-wearing glass cannon. You're having troubles with us because we eliminate your supposed "advantage" towards the other classes; your range, DPS AND CC, three very deadly factors in PVP when combined. If the chain CC's hit a TR without Stealth, which is the next most squishy class after the CW, they get sent to spawn. But we don't want to get sent into spawn, therefore we use our tools to get rid of your advantage towards us which is Stealth; our ability to negate your range, reduce it to 10' (melee range), and prevent your CC's from landing which is pretty much your main mode of offense and defense. We can do all of that, simply because we are the antithesis of your class, its supposed "perfect counter" because of Stealth.
Obviously this does not pose much of a problem for melee classes who can hold their own ground thanks to their mitigation (HR's, GWF's, DC's, GF's), and it's actually an advantage for them to have the TR close in on melee with the exception of the DC. It's just you guys that tend to have the problems with TR's of mostly any build, not just "permas" (the real ones, mind you), because TR's are the natural counter for CW's.
A CW cannot chain-CC and kill someone without them being able to do anything. Maybe pre-patch, but not anymore now that CC is nerfed as well as damage.
A perma-rogue can and regularly kills someone without them being able to do anything.
"If the chain CC's hit a TR without Stealth, which is the next most squishy class after the CW, they get sent to spawn."
Not if the rogue is in ITC, which they always are if they're not in stealth.
The picture you're presenting would be fine if it were true. If it was only a matter of locating and CC'ing a rogue in stealth for a CW to be able to hurt him, then it would at least be a winnable fight.
With things like ITC though, it turns what would be an interesting disadvantage into a hopeless cause.
A CW cannot chain-CC and kill someone without them being able to do anything. Maybe pre-patch, but not anymore now that CC is nerfed as well as damage.
A perma-rogue can and regularly kills someone without them being able to do anything.
"If the chain CC's hit a TR without Stealth, which is the next most squishy class after the CW, they get sent to spawn."
Not if the rogue is in ITC, which they always are if they're not in stealth.
The picture you're presenting would be fine if it were true. If it was only a matter of locating and CC'ing a rogue in stealth for a CW to be able to hurt him, then it would at least be a winnable fight.
With things like ITC though, it turns what would be an interesting disadvantage into a hopeless cause.
Plenty of cw pwn me on my rogue because they know how to play their class and they know how a rogue play... just saying
This is not a discussion about ''cw is weaker than tr so nerf the tr'' this is a discussion about the tr perma stealth ability, not a place to whine about how you cant cc everything to death ....
Not all perma tr use ITC
You can do something about a tr.. find some ways pls.. Plenty of cw did already... Haa you cant use entangling force, **** lets nerf the stealth so we can entangle them..... NOT
Some people talk about showing the rogue the time he hit the enemy... That mean a rogue attack = a dead rogue... worst idea ever.. I dont mind removing the permastealth, make a full rework and stop the nerf party. Make em viable in pve for a first why not? Remove the perma but give em something back to fight because as it is, remove the stealth you wont see much TR alive in pvp.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Plenty of cw pwn me on my rogue because they know how to play their class and they know how a rogue play... just saying
Well yeah in mediocre group vs mediocre group PVP games.
Go on twitch, go on youtube. Look up the top PVP guilds fighting each other in premade vs premade.
How many times did a good CW "pwn" a good TR in 1vs1 node battles? Now what about the opposite, how many times did that happen?
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2014
hamletswords, you'd better get familiar with using that lantern and Steal Time/Icy Terrain AoEs. There's plenty of this advice in the forums, so I assume it's extremely good and working perfectly against TRs.
Well yeah in mediocre group vs mediocre group PVP games.
Go on twitch, go on youtube. Look up the top PVP guilds fighting each other in premade vs premade.
How many times did a good CW "pwn" a good TR in 1vs1 node battles? Now what about the opposite, how many times did that happen?
again, this is not a 1v1 pvp matchup, its 5v5 if you send your CW to defend the point you lost because your strategie is bad. Send a Healer or a gwf they would be way more effective.
As you may already know, CW are made of paper, witch make them the perfect target for a TR. Tr are the worst class for a cw to fight againts. They wont nerf the tr just so the cw have no more enemy, cw are already the master of pve cant be the master of all...
Tr cant kill a good gwf as they cant kill a good DC
If there is a fire in my appartment (tr) i would not go and throw paper at them(cw) i would use water or sand ( dc or gwf).
Use different strategy than sending the CW witch is a nuke damage no defense class to fight on the 1v1 againts a class that can kill a cw fast enought. The cw will win if he find the tr quick enought but in any other case the tr might kill him before he find him, send a gwf witch have more way to find and more time (defense/hp) to find em.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
again, this is not a 1v1 pvp matchup, its 5v5 if you send your CW to defend the point you lost because your strategie is bad. Send a Healer or a gwf they would be way more effective.
As you may already know, CW are made of paper, witch make them the perfect target for a TR. Tr are the worst class for a cw to fight againts. They wont nerf the tr just so the cw have no more enemy, cw are already the master of pve cant be the master of all...
Tr cant kill a good gwf as they cant kill a good DC
If there is a fire in my appartment (tr) i would not go and throw paper at them(cw) i would use water or sand ( dc or gwf).
Use different strategy than sending the CW witch is a nuke damage no defense class to fight on the 1v1 againts a class that can kill a cw fast enought. The cw will win if he find the tr quick enought but in any other case the tr might kill him before he find him, send a gwf witch have more way to find and more time (defense/hp) to find em.
The current PVP meta promotes a lot of 1 vs 1 node battles. That is what WINS games. A team sends either a GWF or TR on enemy node and 1 GWF or TR on their node. The CW is relegated to rotation between nodes because he instantly loses against either class. Also, if the CW is the only one left on mid, he dies. Once stealth is almost gone, TRs pop impossible to catch. And by the way, the CW is also extremely vulnerable to GWFs
Also, the fact that you use imbalance in PVE as an excuse for PVP imbalance is laughable. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Plenty of cw pwn me on my rogue because they know how to play their class and they know how a rogue play... just saying
This is not a discussion about ''cw is weaker than tr so nerf the tr'' this is a discussion about the tr perma stealth ability, not a place to whine about how you cant cc everything to death ....
Not all perma tr use ITC
You can do something about a tr.. find some ways pls.. Plenty of cw did already... Haa you cant use entangling force, **** lets nerf the stealth so we can entangle them..... NOT
Some people talk about showing the rogue the time he hit the enemy... That mean a rogue attack = a dead rogue... worst idea ever.. I dont mind removing the permastealth, make a full rework and stop the nerf party. Make em viable in pve for a first why not? Remove the perma but give em something back to fight because as it is, remove the stealth you wont see much TR alive in pvp.
You must be really horrible if you're dying to CWs often as a perma-rogue.
"Not all perma tr use ITC"
Why not? I can't imagine anyone giving up invincibility.
"You can do something about a tr.. find some ways pls.. Plenty of cw did already..."
No they didn't. There are no ways. Not against a competent perma-rogue that stays in stealth or ITC all the time.
Perma stealth turns a TR into a WoW Rogue, totally lame-o in the DnD universe because the only way a rogue could be completely invisible was with a magic ring and those were hard to come by. No necros, no paladins, no blackguards, no Cavaliers, no choice of good or evil or chaotic alignment. The only real link besides the Lore to DnD is rolling ability scores. Lame-O. Class customization is boosauce, wizards can't choose between being evokers, illusionists, diviners etc. Comeon.
You must be really horrible if you're dying to CWs often as a perma-rogue.
"Not all perma tr use ITC"
Why not? I can't imagine anyone giving up invincibility.
"You can do something about a tr.. find some ways pls.. Plenty of cw did already..."
No they didn't. There are no ways. Not against a competent perma-rogue that stays in stealth or ITC all the time.
You saying 'there is no way' show how bad you are as a cw, there is always a way, just change your **** skill load-out for once and try something new, plenty of cw said themself here that there had plenty of way to kill a tr, some just want to be mega super cc/singletarget burst and dont want to change anything in order to fight certain situation. If you don't try something well you stay where you're at... sadly
And please stop acting like you know all CW and how they did or did not fight a TR before, i know for a fact that a cw can kick tr easy with their new loadout they specificaly changed in order to kill trs easily
And about ITC it is a choice, either you sacrifice ALL your damage and take itc or you keep some damage and don't..
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
The current PVP meta promotes a lot of 1 vs 1 node battles. That is what WINS games. A team sends either a GWF or TR on enemy node and 1 GWF or TR on their node. The CW is relegated to rotation between nodes because he instantly loses against either class. Also, if the CW is the only one left on mid, he dies. Once stealth is almost gone, TRs pop impossible to catch. And by the way, the CW is also extremely vulnerable to GWFs
Also, the fact that you use imbalance in PVE as an excuse for PVP imbalance is laughable. Two wrongs do not make a right.
so the cw sucks, lets nerf the TR ? If you so want to complain about how the cw is bad, make a thread called '' My Thaum cw cant fight in pvp please make em super strong '' or something like that... And everyone is vulnerable to a gwf
And i bring this up because here all everyone is asking is Nerf the rogue so op omg ''Crys'' while nerfing a rogue like it been done before will simply just kill the pve even more, this is a pve/pvp environement as they did not change the way encounter/feat/daily/at-will work in either environement, you cant ask for something to be change w/o thinking about the way it affect both pvp and pve. I did not say it make it right so please dont put word in my mouth that i did not say.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
You saying 'there is no way' show how bad you are as a cw, there is always a way, just change your **** skill load-out for once and try something new, plenty of cw said themself here that there had plenty of way to kill a tr, some just want to be mega super cc/singletarget burst and dont want to change anything in order to fight certain situation. If you don't try something well you stay where you're at... sadly
And please stop acting like you know all CW and how they did or did not fight a TR before, i know for a fact that a cw can kick tr easy with their new loadout they specificaly changed in order to kill trs easily
And about ITC it is a choice, either you sacrifice ALL your damage and take itc or you keep some damage and don't..
They said they have plenty of ways sarcastically. There are no ways. I've tried everything and so have other CWs.
"i know for a fact that a cw can kick tr easy with their new loadout they specificaly changed in order to kill trs easily"
If you think there's any CW that kills a competent perma-rogue "easily" with any loadout, even one only designed to fight perma-rogues and nothing else, you're just plain wrong. If there's some CW saying they can easily kill perma-rogues, they're full of **** or playing really bad perma-rogues.
And besides, changing your whole loadout to fight one class means you suck against the rest of the team, so it's not an viable option even if it was true. And it's not about wanting to be "mega-cc/single-target burst", we need all those encounters and dailies just to be on par with other classes and actually kill people.
You're not going to kill anybody with icy terrain and steal time.
Rogues have plenty of damage with ITC. Saying a rogue with ITC has no damage because they gave up one encounter for defense is just one example of how ridiculous perma-defenders are in this forum.
But yeah, if I was fighting rogues that were dumb enough not to use ITC, then maybe I would go around saying I can kick their asses easily too.
I do kill rogues as a CW, but only because they're bad or they choose not to spec perma even though perma is so good for whatever reason. Maybe they don't know about it or maybe they just don't want to play a spec that can win fights so easily against opponents unable to fight back.
They said they have plenty of ways sarcastically. There are no ways. I've tried everything and so have other CWs.
"i know for a fact that a cw can kick tr easy with their new loadout they specificaly changed in order to kill trs easily"
If you think there's any CW that kills a competent perma-rogue "easily" with any loadout, even one only designed to fight perma-rogues and nothing else, you're just plain wrong. If there's some CW saying they can easily kill perma-rogues, they're full of **** or playing really bad perma-rogues.
And besides, changing your whole loadout to fight one class means you suck against the rest of the team, so it's not an viable option even if it was true. And it's not about wanting to be "mega-cc/single-target burst", we need all those encounters and dailies just to be on par with other classes and actually kill people.
You're not going to kill anybody with icy terrain and steal time.
Rogues have plenty of damage with ITC. Saying a rogue with ITC has no damage because they gave up one encounter for defense is just one example of how ridiculous perma-defenders are in this forum.
But yeah, if I was fighting rogues that were dumb enough not to use ITC, then maybe I would go around saying I can kick their asses easily too.
I do kill rogues as a CW, but only because they're bad or they choose not to spec perma even though perma is so good for whatever reason. Maybe they don't know about it or maybe they just don't want to play a spec that can win fights so easily against opponents unable to fight back.
Making a build that is strickly againts control is good againts control, i wonder why... wait.. no i don't.. Whatever happen you do know they aint going to remove stealth right? And you do know that tr can kill a cw in like 15 second right? SO knowing that what difference will it make? They going to make a 3second only stealth? NO they going to make us be seen as soon as we hit someone? hahah that would mean just plain remove the stealth.. Not going to happens, the dev are thinking more than 90% of the people on the forum and reading your post means you included. On this i said what i had to say, and i guess all people are sarcastic when you want them to be... You know ALL wizard and read ALL their post and know them ALL personaly to know if they are sarcastic or not. You're a little bit over yourself, if i say that i know a cw that can fight a tr it is because i do and creating a load-out to kill a certain type of class in case this class make you loose a game, and using that load-out make you win that game even if that mean you're weaker againts other class, how is that a bad thing?
Haaaa i forgot you guys want to be the best of them all, well guess what? whatever happens there is alway going to have someone to build something againts your build, deal with it.
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Rogues have plenty of damage with ITC. Saying a rogue with ITC has no damage because they gave up one encounter for defense is just one example of how ridiculous perma-defenders are in this forum.
A true perma-stealth TR has to use the encounters Shadow Strike (low damage) and Bait and Switch (no damage). A TR can keep very high stealth uptime without both of these slotted, but not 100% (ie. not "perma" stealth).
ITC also does no damage.
If you have all three of these encounters on your bar, then damage can only come from at-wills and dailies. These can still hurt a lot if used well, but it does reduce the TR's ability to deal burst damage that isn't dependent on AP gain.
(A PvE stealth TR can get very reliable AP gain because AI isn't smart enough to not kill your dummy and fill it up for you. Not so much against smart PvP opponents.)
A true perma-stealth TR has to use the encounters Shadow Strike (low damage) and Bait and Switch (no damage). A TR can keep very high stealth uptime without both of these slotted, but not 100% (ie. not "perma" stealth).
Perma is just some made-up term that pretty much encompasses the category of TRs with an almost perfect cycle of stealth-immune. There's no need to B&S unless you're hunted by 2-3 persons (usually). So you can use that lame PotB instead and deal skillful damage to anything near you while you don't do mostly anything
Perma is just some made-up term that pretty much encompasses the category of TRs with an almost perfect cycle of stealth-immune. There's no need to B&S unless you're hunted by 2-3 persons (usually). So you can use that lame PotB instead and deal skillful damage to anything near you while you don't do mostly anything
becky is right by the way
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
A true perma-stealth TR has to use the encounters Shadow Strike (low damage) and Bait and Switch (no damage). A TR can keep very high stealth uptime without both of these slotted, but not 100% (ie. not "perma" stealth).
ITC also does no damage.
If you have all three of these encounters on your bar, then damage can only come from at-wills and dailies. These can still hurt a lot if used well, but it does reduce the TR's ability to deal burst damage that isn't dependent on AP gain.
(A PvE stealth TR can get very reliable AP gain because AI isn't smart enough to not kill your dummy and fill it up for you. Not so much against smart PvP opponents.)
There's no need to do burst damage when your opponent can't hurt you. In any case, it just shows that defenders of the spec are making stuff up when they say things like "you give up ALL of your damage if you use ITC".
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Never called him/her wrong. Just said what are the usual player's expectations when he says perma. Full permas are not seen that often either. Most players that see a guy stealthing, trying to flurry, ITC, shadow strike and lately PotB, will call them permas, cause the TR will be almost permanently out of their reach.
Making a build that is strickly againts control is good againts control, i wonder why... wait.. no i don't.. Whatever happen you do know they aint going to remove stealth right? And you do know that tr can kill a cw in like 15 second right? SO knowing that what difference will it make? They going to make a 3second only stealth? NO they going to make us be seen as soon as we hit someone? hahah that would mean just plain remove the stealth.. Not going to happens, the dev are thinking more than 90% of the people on the forum and reading your post means you included. On this i said what i had to say, and i guess all people are sarcastic when you want them to be... You know ALL wizard and read ALL their post and know them ALL personaly to know if they are sarcastic or not. You're a little bit over yourself, if i say that i know a cw that can fight a tr it is because i do and creating a load-out to kill a certain type of class in case this class make you loose a game, and using that load-out make you win that game even if that mean you're weaker againts other class, how is that a bad thing?
Haaaa i forgot you guys want to be the best of them all, well guess what? whatever happens there is alway going to have someone to build something againts your build, deal with it.
It's not just good against control, it's good against everything. It's especially good against CWs because they don't have any AOE skills they can spam.
If you're playing a CW slotted with icy terrain and steal time, you're sucking against everyone.
dude CW have other aoe that this.
Try shard on tab for exemple, very very strong againts tr as if you hit it once you bring him down witch mostly will end up in loosing stealth. then if they dont have itc you use entangle and boom hes dead mostly.
You first say cw have no aoe
then you name their 2 worst pvp aoe to state that cw are bad. realy?
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
dude CW have other aoe that this.
Try shard on tab for exemple, very very strong againts tr as if you hit it once you bring him down witch mostly will end up in loosing stealth. then if they dont have itc you use entangle and boom hes dead mostly.
I always play with Shard on tab. It's not really an AOE skill though unless it explodes.
And it's hard enough to hit people with it regularly let alone if THEY'RE INVISIBLE.
It's extremely cumbersome and hard to use in PVP. The reason it's good is because of the prone and the damage. It's usually best to use AFTER getting an entangle and icy rays root on somebody, not for hoping to hit some invisible phantom.
I always play with Shard on tab. It's not really an AOE skill though unless it explodes.
And it's hard enough to hit people with it regularly let alone if THEY'RE INVISIBLE.
It's extremely cumbersome and hard to use in PVP. The reason it's good is because of the prone and the damage. It's usually best to use AFTER getting an entangle and icy rays root on somebody, not for hoping to hit some invisible phantom.
Its better than entangle as you can touch the same target multiple time, and listen to the sound of tr, cast the shard somewhere you're not on the point, move the shard to one point while moving to another. make all little thing that give you more chance and make him loose his mind a little bit, losing concentration once for a tr might mean loosing stealth rotation
Of course nothing is absolute, if it was perma would be weak.. Its already the squishyest amongs all and have nothing to rely on other than stealth and running away at least cw can stop a charge on them with their cc
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
Its better than entangle as you can touch the same target multiple time, and listen to the sound of tr, cast the shard somewhere you're not on the point, move the shard to one point while moving to another. make all little thing that give you more chance and make him loose his mind a little bit, losing concentration once for a tr might mean loosing stealth rotation
That "strategy" is still dependent on the rogue messing up or just getting extremely lucky.
Meanwhile you're taking knives to the chest looking like an idiot.
That "strategy" is still dependent on the rogue messing up or just getting extremely lucky.
Meanwhile you're taking knives to the chest looking like an idiot.
Well what do you want? A ''reveal the rogue hidden near me'' or a ''kill anything standing in 50' radius'' ?
You sound like saying you just want a plain something that kill tr anytime and anywhere, propose something viable for both class can you ? no you cant because thats not what you want!
And its not about luck, its about skill, listening and strategy. You can hear where the knife come from btw...
Founder back a week ago, already pissed by cryptic ''no roll back'' decision
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
dude CW have other aoe that this.
Try shard on tab for exemple, very very strong againts tr as if you hit it once you bring him down witch mostly will end up in loosing stealth. then if they dont have itc you use entangle and boom hes dead mostly.
You first say cw have no aoe
then you name their 2 worst pvp aoe to state that cw are bad. realy?
Pro hint: TR can bug shard 100% by Impact Shotting CW out of stealth.
Not long ago I was testing stuff with one of the best PvP TRs in the game, full BiS everything. Tried shard, didn't work, he either bugged it out or I couldn't hit him (too much luck necessary, as he escaped Icy Rays/Entangle with ITC and then stealth, so shard pushes were more like random/intuition based).
In the end after losing quite a few matches, I switched to full DoT setup: RoEx2/Mastery, CoI, Chill Strike, Repel (or Icy Rays) and managed to kill him, but it took a very lucky Ice Knife crit.
All in all, NOT reliable, luck-based, and CW always on the run, always random jumping trying to conserve stamina and dodge that cursed flurry.
By the way, this was before Tenacity when I had High Vizier.
After Tenacity, I barely managed to score a kill on semiperma perfect vorpal r7s TR in maybe 5 tries (me at 9s+). I have SERIOUS doubts I can touch the PotB BiS/near BiS TRs. That skill is most annoying and my damage was nerfed a lot, while a TR can Shox me invariably in a 1 vs 1, cause he has time to build AP. I don't, cause I mostly don't have stuff to cast on.
Did I mention ITC looks like Soulforged? GG Cryptic thankssss. This means I'm LUCKY (not skilled) if I land an icy rays on a TR so I can open up for a shard. BTW, landing a shard doesn't mean that I won, cause my damage is MUCH lower compared to HV era, and guess what, TRs are tanky too
All in all, pure class balance, enjoy.
And don't forget to use Lantern, Steal Time and Icy Terrain they help A LOT
PS. Almost forgot, killed a (near?) BiS known TR 1vs1 in a random premade after tenacity as well, and was an on-point battle. Was a great accomplishment that i needed to trumpet to my party immediately, but I think he didn't take me seriously as we dueled a day or so ago and he wiped the floor with me :P Maybe he fell asleep during those oh-so-thrilling rotations lol.
Comments
why vorpal, lets use bilethorn !! :rolleyes:
ps: where you get these infooooo !? :P
Here! Enjoy, js3b.
And yeah BT sounds good too but sure crits for 10 seconds on your opponents is a dream. ♥
Probably some time in alpha as I remember using Cloud of Steel on closed beta weekend one. (I was getting it confused with the GF's second at will for a while so pretty much used it in the worst way possible, but I did use it.)
A CW cannot chain-CC and kill someone without them being able to do anything. Maybe pre-patch, but not anymore now that CC is nerfed as well as damage.
A perma-rogue can and regularly kills someone without them being able to do anything.
"If the chain CC's hit a TR without Stealth, which is the next most squishy class after the CW, they get sent to spawn."
Not if the rogue is in ITC, which they always are if they're not in stealth.
The picture you're presenting would be fine if it were true. If it was only a matter of locating and CC'ing a rogue in stealth for a CW to be able to hurt him, then it would at least be a winnable fight.
With things like ITC though, it turns what would be an interesting disadvantage into a hopeless cause.
Plenty of cw pwn me on my rogue because they know how to play their class and they know how a rogue play... just saying
This is not a discussion about ''cw is weaker than tr so nerf the tr'' this is a discussion about the tr perma stealth ability, not a place to whine about how you cant cc everything to death ....
Not all perma tr use ITC
You can do something about a tr.. find some ways pls.. Plenty of cw did already... Haa you cant use entangling force, **** lets nerf the stealth so we can entangle them..... NOT
Some people talk about showing the rogue the time he hit the enemy... That mean a rogue attack = a dead rogue... worst idea ever.. I dont mind removing the permastealth, make a full rework and stop the nerf party. Make em viable in pve for a first why not? Remove the perma but give em something back to fight because as it is, remove the stealth you wont see much TR alive in pvp.
Well yeah in mediocre group vs mediocre group PVP games.
Go on twitch, go on youtube. Look up the top PVP guilds fighting each other in premade vs premade.
How many times did a good CW "pwn" a good TR in 1vs1 node battles? Now what about the opposite, how many times did that happen?
Let us know how it went :P
again, this is not a 1v1 pvp matchup, its 5v5 if you send your CW to defend the point you lost because your strategie is bad. Send a Healer or a gwf they would be way more effective.
As you may already know, CW are made of paper, witch make them the perfect target for a TR. Tr are the worst class for a cw to fight againts. They wont nerf the tr just so the cw have no more enemy, cw are already the master of pve cant be the master of all...
Tr cant kill a good gwf as they cant kill a good DC
If there is a fire in my appartment (tr) i would not go and throw paper at them(cw) i would use water or sand ( dc or gwf).
Use different strategy than sending the CW witch is a nuke damage no defense class to fight on the 1v1 againts a class that can kill a cw fast enought. The cw will win if he find the tr quick enought but in any other case the tr might kill him before he find him, send a gwf witch have more way to find and more time (defense/hp) to find em.
The current PVP meta promotes a lot of 1 vs 1 node battles. That is what WINS games. A team sends either a GWF or TR on enemy node and 1 GWF or TR on their node. The CW is relegated to rotation between nodes because he instantly loses against either class. Also, if the CW is the only one left on mid, he dies. Once stealth is almost gone, TRs pop impossible to catch. And by the way, the CW is also extremely vulnerable to GWFs
Also, the fact that you use imbalance in PVE as an excuse for PVP imbalance is laughable. Two wrongs do not make a right.
You must be really horrible if you're dying to CWs often as a perma-rogue.
"Not all perma tr use ITC"
Why not? I can't imagine anyone giving up invincibility.
"You can do something about a tr.. find some ways pls.. Plenty of cw did already..."
No they didn't. There are no ways. Not against a competent perma-rogue that stays in stealth or ITC all the time.
You saying 'there is no way' show how bad you are as a cw, there is always a way, just change your **** skill load-out for once and try something new, plenty of cw said themself here that there had plenty of way to kill a tr, some just want to be mega super cc/singletarget burst and dont want to change anything in order to fight certain situation. If you don't try something well you stay where you're at... sadly
And please stop acting like you know all CW and how they did or did not fight a TR before, i know for a fact that a cw can kick tr easy with their new loadout they specificaly changed in order to kill trs easily
And about ITC it is a choice, either you sacrifice ALL your damage and take itc or you keep some damage and don't..
so the cw sucks, lets nerf the TR ? If you so want to complain about how the cw is bad, make a thread called '' My Thaum cw cant fight in pvp please make em super strong '' or something like that... And everyone is vulnerable to a gwf
And i bring this up because here all everyone is asking is Nerf the rogue so op omg ''Crys'' while nerfing a rogue like it been done before will simply just kill the pve even more, this is a pve/pvp environement as they did not change the way encounter/feat/daily/at-will work in either environement, you cant ask for something to be change w/o thinking about the way it affect both pvp and pve. I did not say it make it right so please dont put word in my mouth that i did not say.
They said they have plenty of ways sarcastically. There are no ways. I've tried everything and so have other CWs.
"i know for a fact that a cw can kick tr easy with their new loadout they specificaly changed in order to kill trs easily"
If you think there's any CW that kills a competent perma-rogue "easily" with any loadout, even one only designed to fight perma-rogues and nothing else, you're just plain wrong. If there's some CW saying they can easily kill perma-rogues, they're full of **** or playing really bad perma-rogues.
And besides, changing your whole loadout to fight one class means you suck against the rest of the team, so it's not an viable option even if it was true. And it's not about wanting to be "mega-cc/single-target burst", we need all those encounters and dailies just to be on par with other classes and actually kill people.
You're not going to kill anybody with icy terrain and steal time.
Rogues have plenty of damage with ITC. Saying a rogue with ITC has no damage because they gave up one encounter for defense is just one example of how ridiculous perma-defenders are in this forum.
But yeah, if I was fighting rogues that were dumb enough not to use ITC, then maybe I would go around saying I can kick their asses easily too.
I do kill rogues as a CW, but only because they're bad or they choose not to spec perma even though perma is so good for whatever reason. Maybe they don't know about it or maybe they just don't want to play a spec that can win fights so easily against opponents unable to fight back.
Making a build that is strickly againts control is good againts control, i wonder why... wait.. no i don't.. Whatever happen you do know they aint going to remove stealth right? And you do know that tr can kill a cw in like 15 second right? SO knowing that what difference will it make? They going to make a 3second only stealth? NO they going to make us be seen as soon as we hit someone? hahah that would mean just plain remove the stealth.. Not going to happens, the dev are thinking more than 90% of the people on the forum and reading your post means you included. On this i said what i had to say, and i guess all people are sarcastic when you want them to be... You know ALL wizard and read ALL their post and know them ALL personaly to know if they are sarcastic or not. You're a little bit over yourself, if i say that i know a cw that can fight a tr it is because i do and creating a load-out to kill a certain type of class in case this class make you loose a game, and using that load-out make you win that game even if that mean you're weaker againts other class, how is that a bad thing?
Haaaa i forgot you guys want to be the best of them all, well guess what? whatever happens there is alway going to have someone to build something againts your build, deal with it.
A true perma-stealth TR has to use the encounters Shadow Strike (low damage) and Bait and Switch (no damage). A TR can keep very high stealth uptime without both of these slotted, but not 100% (ie. not "perma" stealth).
ITC also does no damage.
If you have all three of these encounters on your bar, then damage can only come from at-wills and dailies. These can still hurt a lot if used well, but it does reduce the TR's ability to deal burst damage that isn't dependent on AP gain.
(A PvE stealth TR can get very reliable AP gain because AI isn't smart enough to not kill your dummy and fill it up for you. Not so much against smart PvP opponents.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Perma is just some made-up term that pretty much encompasses the category of TRs with an almost perfect cycle of stealth-immune. There's no need to B&S unless you're hunted by 2-3 persons (usually). So you can use that lame PotB instead and deal skillful damage to anything near you while you don't do mostly anything
becky is right by the way
There's no need to do burst damage when your opponent can't hurt you. In any case, it just shows that defenders of the spec are making stuff up when they say things like "you give up ALL of your damage if you use ITC".
Never called him/her wrong. Just said what are the usual player's expectations when he says perma. Full permas are not seen that often either. Most players that see a guy stealthing, trying to flurry, ITC, shadow strike and lately PotB, will call them permas, cause the TR will be almost permanently out of their reach.
It's not just good against control, it's good against everything. It's especially good against CWs because they don't have any AOE skills they can spam.
hahahahhahah realy?
If you're playing a CW slotted with icy terrain and steal time, you're sucking against everyone.
dude CW have other aoe that this.
Try shard on tab for exemple, very very strong againts tr as if you hit it once you bring him down witch mostly will end up in loosing stealth. then if they dont have itc you use entangle and boom hes dead mostly.
You first say cw have no aoe
then you name their 2 worst pvp aoe to state that cw are bad. realy?
I always play with Shard on tab. It's not really an AOE skill though unless it explodes.
And it's hard enough to hit people with it regularly let alone if THEY'RE INVISIBLE.
It's extremely cumbersome and hard to use in PVP. The reason it's good is because of the prone and the damage. It's usually best to use AFTER getting an entangle and icy rays root on somebody, not for hoping to hit some invisible phantom.
Its better than entangle as you can touch the same target multiple time, and listen to the sound of tr, cast the shard somewhere you're not on the point, move the shard to one point while moving to another. make all little thing that give you more chance and make him loose his mind a little bit, losing concentration once for a tr might mean loosing stealth rotation
Of course nothing is absolute, if it was perma would be weak.. Its already the squishyest amongs all and have nothing to rely on other than stealth and running away at least cw can stop a charge on them with their cc
That "strategy" is still dependent on the rogue messing up or just getting extremely lucky.
Meanwhile you're taking knives to the chest looking like an idiot.
Well what do you want? A ''reveal the rogue hidden near me'' or a ''kill anything standing in 50' radius'' ?
You sound like saying you just want a plain something that kill tr anytime and anywhere, propose something viable for both class can you ? no you cant because thats not what you want!
And its not about luck, its about skill, listening and strategy. You can hear where the knife come from btw...
Pro hint: TR can bug shard 100% by Impact Shotting CW out of stealth.
Not long ago I was testing stuff with one of the best PvP TRs in the game, full BiS everything. Tried shard, didn't work, he either bugged it out or I couldn't hit him (too much luck necessary, as he escaped Icy Rays/Entangle with ITC and then stealth, so shard pushes were more like random/intuition based).
In the end after losing quite a few matches, I switched to full DoT setup: RoEx2/Mastery, CoI, Chill Strike, Repel (or Icy Rays) and managed to kill him, but it took a very lucky Ice Knife crit.
All in all, NOT reliable, luck-based, and CW always on the run, always random jumping trying to conserve stamina and dodge that cursed flurry.
By the way, this was before Tenacity when I had High Vizier.
After Tenacity, I barely managed to score a kill on semiperma perfect vorpal r7s TR in maybe 5 tries (me at 9s+). I have SERIOUS doubts I can touch the PotB BiS/near BiS TRs. That skill is most annoying and my damage was nerfed a lot, while a TR can Shox me invariably in a 1 vs 1, cause he has time to build AP. I don't, cause I mostly don't have stuff to cast on.
Did I mention ITC looks like Soulforged? GG Cryptic thankssss. This means I'm LUCKY (not skilled) if I land an icy rays on a TR so I can open up for a shard. BTW, landing a shard doesn't mean that I won, cause my damage is MUCH lower compared to HV era, and guess what, TRs are tanky too
All in all, pure class balance, enjoy.
And don't forget to use Lantern, Steal Time and Icy Terrain they help A LOT
PS. Almost forgot, killed a (near?) BiS known TR 1vs1 in a random premade after tenacity as well, and was an on-point battle. Was a great accomplishment that i needed to trumpet to my party immediately, but I think he didn't take me seriously as we dueled a day or so ago and he wiped the floor with me :P Maybe he fell asleep during those oh-so-thrilling rotations lol.