Champion is like Battle Mage gear, when you are going to be in the thick of things right up by the melees, in large crowds where you can't afford to wait on timers, this is the armor that will be best. And it's very situational. No you don't absolutely need them, but when they shine, they really shine in PvE and yes, even outshines HV.
It allows you to do things you never would have dreamed of doing in HV.
Vorphied's Testament already is a tanky Battlemage CW in his HV.
Maybe Champion works well for the kind of runs where you pull everything until you hit a door or something, which I admit I'm not anywhere close to wanting to do.
...It allows you to do things you never would have dreamed of doing in HV.
Until it becomes the case where there is something that I cannot do in HV, it'll be difficult for me to accept :P I don't exactly sit back and plink as it is.
Use Regen rings/Neck/Belt, with Tenacity is possible.
Use Azues or Radiants in Offense slot after you have 2500 ArP or so because diminishing returns.
Fomorian wep (regen)
Sylvan Talisman (HP/Regen)
That's about it. Try not to get hit. Get an emblem, get R10s, legendaries.
Apply to top guild so you can be carried. GG.
Thaum set just isn't my preference right now. Recovery isn't the be-all-end-all, but stripping all of it out of one's build can't be a good thing. And while Power scales slowly as a stat, dropping it entirely from the set does amount to a statistically significant decrease in damage.
Using Oppressor allows me to keep my HP accessories and not have to rework my entire jewelry box and enchantment load-out to compensate for the Thaum's set missing stats. If my opinion changes over time, then I'll get to take a whack at the Profound equivalent after a while
Vorphied's Testament already is a tanky Battlemage CW in his HV.
Maybe Champion works well for the kind of runs where you pull everything until you hit a door or something, which I admit I'm not anywhere close to wanting to do.
Actually I wasn't even talking about the Health part, although that's nice too. And it does bring my health up to 25,000 which is pretty good for a mage. And it definitely improves survivability. I know some bosses main powers used to be able to one shot me prior to that, they can't anymore.
I was talking about the reduced timer allowing you to use more encounter powers faster. Specifically the ones that don't have target limits more often for very large crowds. So you get to use Sudden Storm in large crowds more often and faster, and you get a 5% damage bonus on it along with the its DoT in large crowds.
But I highly encourage you to give it a try. You'll be surprised.
I know its hard to accept, but its actually true about Champion.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Until it becomes the case where there is something that I cannot do in HV, it'll be difficult for me to accept :P I don't exactly sit back and plink as it is.
Thaum set just isn't my preference right now. Recovery isn't the be-all-end-all, but stripping all of it out of one's build can't be a good thing. And while Power scales slowly as a stat, dropping it entirely from the set does amount to a statistically significant decrease in damage.
Using Oppressor allows me to keep my HP accessories and not have to rework my entire jewelry box and enchantment load-out to compensate for the Thaum's set missing stats. If my opinion changes over time, then I'll get to take a whack at the Profound equivalent after a while
Yeah the set is bad, but has HP. That's about it in PvP To make things worse, most CW nukes don't work with ArP. We already die fast-fast-fast. Thaum set is a second of more survivability and bigger regen ticks when you manage to be out of HD.
Not my fault things are as dumb as they are I would still wear HV if possible - but makes you way too squishy.
I plan to return to HV if I find some nice HP/Regen accessories.
Actually I wasn't even talking about the Health part, although that's nice too. And it does bring my health up to 25,000 which is pretty good for a mage. And it definitely improves survivability. I know some bosses main powers used to be able to one shot me prior to that, they can't anymore.
I was talking about the reduced timer allowing you to use more encounter powers faster. Specifically the ones that don't have target limits more often for very large crowds. So you get to use Sudden Storm in large crowds more often and faster, and you get a 5% damage bonus on it along with the its DoT in large crowds.
But I highly encourage you to give it a try. You'll be surprised.
I know its hard to accept, but its actually true about Champion.
I guess the bottom line for me is this: less than 1 second difference in the cooldown of that one encounter doesn't mean much to me when sometimes you'll end up using that fraction of a second just to adjust your aim so as to include a few more targets in your Sudden Storm (on top of my previous point that a lot of targets will already be dead by the time your first rotation is finished).
I've worked with the Champion Set before. One of my alt CWs still wears it because I never got around to giving her HV. I just don't believe in its benefit as much as you do, but I'm glad you're enjoying it and finding it to be so effective.
I guess the bottom line for me is this: less than 1 second difference in the cooldown of that one encounter doesn't mean much to me when sometimes you'll end up using that fraction of a second just to adjust your aim so as to include a few more targets in your Sudden Storm (on top of my previous point that a lot of targets will already be dead by the time your first rotation is finished)..
I suppose its possible we run different ways and with different tactics.
Usually I'm looking at a locked group of mobs, and usually ten or more in those shoes, Shards has target number limits and so does Steal Time. So the only way to mow that many down is with multiple Sudden Storms.
And a Ranger splitting mobs can throw things off, So I guess it is possible our teams run things very differently.
I suppose its possible we run different ways and with different tactics.
Usually I'm looking at a locked group of mobs, and usually ten or more in those shoes, Shards has target number limits and so does Steal Time. So the only way to mow that many down is with multiple Sudden Storms.
And a Ranger splitting mobs can throw things off, So I guess it is possible our teams run things very differently.
Any decent team will attempt to keep mobs clustered, so that much probably isn't different. The way you describe your ~1 second faster Sudden Storm cooldown makes it sound like it is literally the difference between being able to cast it a second time vs. not being able to get it off, and I don't think I understand why that would be an issue.
Until it becomes the case where there is something that I cannot do in HV, it'll be difficult for me to accept :P I don't exactly sit back and plink as it is.
Thaum set just isn't my preference right now. Recovery isn't the be-all-end-all, but stripping all of it out of one's build can't be a good thing. And while Power scales slowly as a stat, dropping it entirely from the set does amount to a statistically significant decrease in damage.
Using Oppressor allows me to keep my HP accessories and not have to rework my entire jewelry box and enchantment load-out to compensate for the Thaum's set missing stats. If my opinion changes over time, then I'll get to take a whack at the Profound equivalent after a while
You should really try the Thaum set when you get time btw. I thought I would hate it but got it after the Opressor set and I was very surprised at the difference. Yes it takes a little rework to regain the lost power/rec but I love it vs the Oppressor set. Once ArP gets fixed it will be even better
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Any decent team will attempt to keep mobs clustered, so that much probably isn't different. The way you describe your ~1 second faster Sudden Storm cooldown makes it sound like it is literally the difference between being able to cast it a second time vs. not being able to get it off, and I don't think I understand why that would be an issue.
Well it is in tight compact areas like a hallway with that many mobs in it.
Because if you can get off the string of attacks before you have to teleport, it means everything, as the entire string of them can be wiped. But we're talking crowds of 10 or more here.
Well it is in tight compact areas like a hallway with that many mobs in it.
Because if you can get off the string of attacks before you have to teleport, it means everything, as the entire string of them can be wiped. But we're talking crowds of 10 or more here.
I get that part; I just don't get the part where this less than 1 second span of time exists where if I don't cast another Sudden Storm I'm forced to immediately teleport and lose the opportunity.
Life Steal and Regen offset virtually all mob damage while in the middle of a rotation, and the kinds of attacks that prone or seriously damage you are almost always telegraphed at least 1-2 seconds in advance, allowing plenty of time to complete a rotation or get an extra lick in before teleporting to either side or through them and then beginning a fresh rotation.
I get that part; I just don't get the part where this less than 1 second span of time exists where if I don't cast another Sudden Storm I'm forced to immediately teleport and lose the opportunity..
Well mostly because by that time they'll be out of position so you wont' be able to... or if you stay there any longer you'll get squished. In a nutshell you won't be able to take advantage of their positioning to be able to do it.
Look man, you can only see if you do it yourself. But it almost sounds like you've never been in a crowd of more than a handful of mobs or you'd know all that.
Well mostly because by that time they'll be out of position so you wont' be able to... or if you stay there any longer you'll get squished. In a nutshell you won't be able to take advantage of their positioning to be able to do it.
Look man, you can only see if you do it yourself. But it almost sounds like you've never been in a crowd of more than a handful of mobs or you'd know all that.
Crowds of mobs are kind of the CW thing. CN, VT, most-any-epic-dungeon.... So yes, I'm very familiar with fighting crowds of 15+ adds. Not sure why you're implying that I wouldn't be, but okay.
I don't know what else to say on this topic. Any player who has done dungeons with my CW will vouch for my level of experience, and I'm telling you that I don't find this set bonus to be necessary or particularly helpful in the context you describe. I've used most every CW armor set in the game, including Champion, and I don't see the same value in it that you do.
But that's the beauty of opinions; I don't have to agree with yours, and you don't have to agree with mine. Whatever works.
I've been using the Thaum set, but I've just got the Oppressor main weapon to balance out the lower power. My current PvP setup includes Shard in tab, then Icy rays, EF and RoE.
I'm still getting to grips with throwing the shard around, but I'm a believer! I think it's one of the abilities that AP works properly on. My current setup has 3100 AP (ignores 27%) which is probably a bit high, but as I'm transfering to the PvP rings, belts, cloaks etc I'll be replacing the current gem sets which are the +100AP and +100Crit ones probably with +185/220 power or recovery. All my defense slots are +HP and +DEF
Crowds of mobs are kind of the CW thing. CN, VT, most-any-epic-dungeon.... So yes, I'm very familiar with fighting crowds of 15+ adds. Not sure why you're implying that I wouldn't be, but okay.
I don't know what else to say on this topic. Any player who has done dungeons with my CW will vouch for my level of experience, and I'm telling you that I don't find this set bonus to be necessary or particularly helpful in the context you describe.
And more importantly the HV buff applies to the whole group. Buffing the whole groups damage vs 1 second faster cast time on 1 encounter power .... buffing the group seems a LOT better in my book. Unless your carrying a group of way way under geared folks.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
And more importantly the HV buff applies to the whole group. Buffing the whole groups damage vs 1 second faster cast time on 1 encounter power .... buffing the group seems a LOT better in my book. Unless your carrying a group of way way under geared folks.
Well HV also doesn't stack with other mages in party using it. So only one mage in party will get any use out of it at any given time making the other mage wearing it irrelevant.
In multiple mage parties it won't do you any good. While its true I have ended up in a lot of under geared parties in the past... Champion in my experience and in mass swarms of mobs is just as good if not better than HV.
What I notice out of HV when I'm wearing it is that it increases the damage each spell does. Champion allows you to cast repeatedly and faster with seemingly no lag in timers.
Well HV also doesn't stack with other mages in party using it. So only one mage in party will get any use out of it at any given time making the other mage wearing it irrelevant.
Was this a recent change? I thought it stacked 2x.
But even if it doesn't, it's only applied to mobs you hit. Thus if there are 20 adds and you hit 10 and another CW hits the other 10 it is still increasing group damage.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Was this a recent change? I thought it stacked 2x.
But even if it doesn't, it's only applied to mobs you hit. Thus if there are 20 adds and you hit 10 and another CW hits the other 10 it is still increasing group damage.
It stacks I believe what you mean is two per mob, and only applies to control spells. How many control spells can you reasonably use on any given mob.
I can think of only Steal Time as a control power used in Mass Mob encounters like that. The others generally are Shards and Sudden Storm. Which applies the stun to all mobs in the area, but only damages what? 5 to 10. All the rest of them are direct damage, at least the ones used in that situation. Granted it would help to know which ones are designated as control powers by the programing I'm sure.
The only other one used is Icy Terrain that I can think of but this generally is situational. I suppose you could blow two Steal Times at once to achieve the effect, but its kind of a waste.
Chill Strike x2 (x3 on mastery on main target, x1 on others)
Icy Terrain x1 per target.
Ice Knife: x3
Ice Storm: x2 per target
Icy rays: x1
Shard of Endless Avalanche x1 per target on roll, x1 on explode.
Oppressive force x3 over the duration per target
Chill Strike x2 (x3 on mastery on main target, x1 on others)
Icy Terrain x1 per target.
Ice Knife: x3
Ice Storm: x2 per target
Icy rays: x1
Shard of Endless Avalanche x1 per target on roll, x1 on explode.
Oppressive force x3 over the duration per target
That is much appreciated..
But the max is still 3 per target, it didn't used to be that way but it was nerfed and no longer stacks. I do remember that part. That's about the level one mage can do. Its also why I stopped using it in multiple mage parties.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...]
But the max is still 3 per target, it didn't used to be that way but it was nerfed and no longer stacks. I do remember that part. That's about the level one mage can do. Its also why I stopped using it in multiple mage parties.
Honestly, please first read Grimah's comprehensive Wizards guide for the young and old before you start posting quarter-truth in the forum.
Honestly, please first read Grimah's comprehensive Wizards guide for the young and old before you start posting quarter-truth in the forum.
Ok here's his direct words from that guide...
"Stacks 3 times but can be placed on multiple enemies, most control spells will place this debuff but only some will give you the bonus. This stacks with other defense reduction % abilities and other wizards using this set. It is effectively a 20-25% damage bonus for that target and applys before damage is calculated. Note that this does not stack with other high vizier users)
So... basically it will put three stacks total on any given mob. An does not stack with other High Vizier users...
the new pvp sets are useless imo, the HV set is always the best for both pvp and pve
For PVP the new sets are required unless you want to go from a support class to a completely useless class. There is a night and day difference between a CW using HV vs tenacity gear. Sure in pug groups it doesnt matter as much but when you do premade PVP or face a very high gear/skilled opponent you will not stand a chance in HV. If you think otherwise then you are not a "true" pvp player/cw.
For PVP the new sets are required unless you want to go from a support class to a completely useless class. There is a night and day difference between a CW using HV vs tenacity gear. Sure in pug groups it doesnt matter as much but when you do premade PVP or face a very high gear/skilled opponent you will not stand a chance in HV. If you think otherwise then you are not a "true" pvp player/cw.
why not having the pvp sets makes the cw a useless class? i agree with you that tenacity may help in pvp but i prefer the HV full set for the debuff , i like to use it in pvp and its very easy to put 3 stacks of the debuff on someone by using chill strike and entaglin force so that the enemy has -1350 def .So considered that i dont want to lose that for more defense , resistence to control etc . for me the best gear for pvp is the HV set with tenacity jewelry (lvl 60 rare dropped in dominion and gaunt pvp, not the jewelry at the trade of blades) and pvp weapons to get about 6% more tenacity. I could think about using the pvp gear if i had a greater plague fire enchantment, maybe that could be a good replacement for hv debuffs, but im not sure about that, i dont know how the plague fire works ive never tried it ,im still lookin for someone that wants to trade it for my greater vorpal on test server.
Comments
Vorphied's Testament already is a tanky Battlemage CW in his HV.
Maybe Champion works well for the kind of runs where you pull everything until you hit a door or something, which I admit I'm not anywhere close to wanting to do.
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Until it becomes the case where there is something that I cannot do in HV, it'll be difficult for me to accept :P I don't exactly sit back and plink as it is.
Thaum set just isn't my preference right now. Recovery isn't the be-all-end-all, but stripping all of it out of one's build can't be a good thing. And while Power scales slowly as a stat, dropping it entirely from the set does amount to a statistically significant decrease in damage.
Using Oppressor allows me to keep my HP accessories and not have to rework my entire jewelry box and enchantment load-out to compensate for the Thaum's set missing stats. If my opinion changes over time, then I'll get to take a whack at the Profound equivalent after a while
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Actually I wasn't even talking about the Health part, although that's nice too. And it does bring my health up to 25,000 which is pretty good for a mage. And it definitely improves survivability. I know some bosses main powers used to be able to one shot me prior to that, they can't anymore.
I was talking about the reduced timer allowing you to use more encounter powers faster. Specifically the ones that don't have target limits more often for very large crowds. So you get to use Sudden Storm in large crowds more often and faster, and you get a 5% damage bonus on it along with the its DoT in large crowds.
But I highly encourage you to give it a try. You'll be surprised.
I know its hard to accept, but its actually true about Champion.
Yeah the set is bad, but has HP. That's about it in PvP
Not my fault things are as dumb as they are
I plan to return to HV if I find some nice HP/Regen accessories.
I guess the bottom line for me is this: less than 1 second difference in the cooldown of that one encounter doesn't mean much to me when sometimes you'll end up using that fraction of a second just to adjust your aim so as to include a few more targets in your Sudden Storm (on top of my previous point that a lot of targets will already be dead by the time your first rotation is finished).
I've worked with the Champion Set before. One of my alt CWs still wears it because I never got around to giving her HV. I just don't believe in its benefit as much as you do, but I'm glad you're enjoying it and finding it to be so effective.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
I suppose its possible we run different ways and with different tactics.
Usually I'm looking at a locked group of mobs, and usually ten or more in those shoes, Shards has target number limits and so does Steal Time. So the only way to mow that many down is with multiple Sudden Storms.
And a Ranger splitting mobs can throw things off, So I guess it is possible our teams run things very differently.
Any decent team will attempt to keep mobs clustered, so that much probably isn't different. The way you describe your ~1 second faster Sudden Storm cooldown makes it sound like it is literally the difference between being able to cast it a second time vs. not being able to get it off, and I don't think I understand why that would be an issue.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
You should really try the Thaum set when you get time btw. I thought I would hate it but got it after the Opressor set and I was very surprised at the difference. Yes it takes a little rework to regain the lost power/rec but I love it vs the Oppressor set. Once ArP gets fixed it will be even better
Well it is in tight compact areas like a hallway with that many mobs in it.
Because if you can get off the string of attacks before you have to teleport, it means everything, as the entire string of them can be wiped. But we're talking crowds of 10 or more here.
I get that part; I just don't get the part where this less than 1 second span of time exists where if I don't cast another Sudden Storm I'm forced to immediately teleport and lose the opportunity.
Life Steal and Regen offset virtually all mob damage while in the middle of a rotation, and the kinds of attacks that prone or seriously damage you are almost always telegraphed at least 1-2 seconds in advance, allowing plenty of time to complete a rotation or get an extra lick in before teleporting to either side or through them and then beginning a fresh rotation.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Well mostly because by that time they'll be out of position so you wont' be able to... or if you stay there any longer you'll get squished. In a nutshell you won't be able to take advantage of their positioning to be able to do it.
Look man, you can only see if you do it yourself. But it almost sounds like you've never been in a crowd of more than a handful of mobs or you'd know all that.
Crowds of mobs are kind of the CW thing. CN, VT, most-any-epic-dungeon.... So yes, I'm very familiar with fighting crowds of 15+ adds. Not sure why you're implying that I wouldn't be, but okay.
I don't know what else to say on this topic. Any player who has done dungeons with my CW will vouch for my level of experience, and I'm telling you that I don't find this set bonus to be necessary or particularly helpful in the context you describe. I've used most every CW armor set in the game, including Champion, and I don't see the same value in it that you do.
But that's the beauty of opinions; I don't have to agree with yours, and you don't have to agree with mine. Whatever works.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Well, that's fair.
I'm still getting to grips with throwing the shard around, but I'm a believer! I think it's one of the abilities that AP works properly on. My current setup has 3100 AP (ignores 27%) which is probably a bit high, but as I'm transfering to the PvP rings, belts, cloaks etc I'll be replacing the current gem sets which are the +100AP and +100Crit ones probably with +185/220 power or recovery. All my defense slots are +HP and +DEF
And more importantly the HV buff applies to the whole group. Buffing the whole groups damage vs 1 second faster cast time on 1 encounter power .... buffing the group seems a LOT better in my book. Unless your carrying a group of way way under geared folks.
Well HV also doesn't stack with other mages in party using it. So only one mage in party will get any use out of it at any given time making the other mage wearing it irrelevant.
In multiple mage parties it won't do you any good. While its true I have ended up in a lot of under geared parties in the past... Champion in my experience and in mass swarms of mobs is just as good if not better than HV.
What I notice out of HV when I'm wearing it is that it increases the damage each spell does. Champion allows you to cast repeatedly and faster with seemingly no lag in timers.
Was this a recent change? I thought it stacked 2x.
But even if it doesn't, it's only applied to mobs you hit. Thus if there are 20 adds and you hit 10 and another CW hits the other 10 it is still increasing group damage.
It stacks I believe what you mean is two per mob, and only applies to control spells. How many control spells can you reasonably use on any given mob.
I can think of only Steal Time as a control power used in Mass Mob encounters like that. The others generally are Shards and Sudden Storm. Which applies the stun to all mobs in the area, but only damages what? 5 to 10. All the rest of them are direct damage, at least the ones used in that situation. Granted it would help to know which ones are designated as control powers by the programing I'm sure.
The only other one used is Icy Terrain that I can think of but this generally is situational. I suppose you could blow two Steal Times at once to achieve the effect, but its kind of a waste.
Icy Terrain x1 per target.
Ice Knife: x3
Ice Storm: x2 per target
Icy rays: x1
Shard of Endless Avalanche x1 per target on roll, x1 on explode.
Oppressive force x3 over the duration per target
That is much appreciated..
But the max is still 3 per target, it didn't used to be that way but it was nerfed and no longer stacks. I do remember that part. That's about the level one mage can do. Its also why I stopped using it in multiple mage parties.
Ok here's his direct words from that guide...
"Stacks 3 times but can be placed on multiple enemies, most control spells will place this debuff but only some will give you the bonus. This stacks with other defense reduction % abilities and other wizards using this set. It is effectively a 20-25% damage bonus for that target and applys before damage is calculated. Note that this does not stack with other high vizier users)
So... basically it will put three stacks total on any given mob. An does not stack with other High Vizier users...
So what exactly was your point?
For PVP the new sets are required unless you want to go from a support class to a completely useless class. There is a night and day difference between a CW using HV vs tenacity gear. Sure in pug groups it doesnt matter as much but when you do premade PVP or face a very high gear/skilled opponent you will not stand a chance in HV. If you think otherwise then you are not a "true" pvp player/cw.
why not having the pvp sets makes the cw a useless class? i agree with you that tenacity may help in pvp but i prefer the HV full set for the debuff , i like to use it in pvp and its very easy to put 3 stacks of the debuff on someone by using chill strike and entaglin force so that the enemy has -1350 def .So considered that i dont want to lose that for more defense , resistence to control etc . for me the best gear for pvp is the HV set with tenacity jewelry (lvl 60 rare dropped in dominion and gaunt pvp, not the jewelry at the trade of blades) and pvp weapons to get about 6% more tenacity. I could think about using the pvp gear if i had a greater plague fire enchantment, maybe that could be a good replacement for hv debuffs, but im not sure about that, i dont know how the plague fire works ive never tried it ,im still lookin for someone that wants to trade it for my greater vorpal on test server.