ok i have been playing since open beta and have seen classes fluctuate in the damage they del and general usefulness in both pvp and pve. and what you guys are talking about is utter nonsense. each class fills a role in combat, the GWF is one of my best friends when i play CW, i lock down the adds and they finish them off if a destroyer GWF or semi-tank them if a Sentinel GWF. my guild has many powerful GWFs and they will always have a place in a party. hell, we plan all GWF runs of stuff even because the class is so versatile. it can tank, it can bring dps, and can self regulate health with skilled use of unstoppable. one of our GWFs never has problems with AP generation, so i dont see how you are complaining about that. if you have so many problems with running the class or inviting the class, pm me your handle and i will introduce you to GWFs that can teach you how to get into parties.
I really think it comes down to who you are playing with. Ive watched several videos people have made for PvP and dungeons. I see a mix of classes. In chat, I see people offering to let everyone in provided they are geared, and in some cases, regardless of gear (sans being so poorly geared you will get yourself constantly killed, thus being a burden on your group). Everyone hates on the most coveted class in every MMO.
the only escape of glitches and abuses is something that WoW devs did , NW devs can do the same .... mobs/bosses to get immunity from dmg if they cant their target due the line of sight or wall shots
That doesn't solve the issue of CWs being dominant (seriously, I've seen 5xCW legit VT, don't even need a Cleric) only fixes the issue that some bosses can be beaten by a CW/DC/HR with no threat to themselves ... which is only an issue because it means bosses like Hand of Magaera are insanely hard (relative to more normal fights) for melee classes and won't get nerfed because "they are beatable if you bring the right class"
What needs to be fixed is the number of adds, the damage the adds do, how easilly they are controllable, and that most Bosses are extremely melee-unfriendly due to random teleporting/jumping and excessive close burst attacks (ex. GG T2 King uses an attack that melee have to dodge every 3 seconds, TR have 1 dodge every 5 seconds meaning they have to phsyically run out of nearly half the attacks)
the reason for running the unbalanced party is not that they want that way sometimes u just dont fiind good players , or u creatng a party and ur friend pm that he wants to join and generally thats the start of it and soetimes those party make the dungeon look so easy that ppl want to try that again and again.
1 time i ran mc with 3 cw gwf and dc and it was so good tried to run again with same setup 5 out of 3 times it was good but the rest party disbanded early in game. the reason was 3 cw way much idiotic, they were just interrupting each other spells, so if 10 parties are forming in PE , y do ppl always notice the single most idiotic party getting formed, they will never look at the rest 9 party which is generally mixed party but always whine about the single party .
so disappointed
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I always find it hilarious when posters and even moderators suggest the best way to get round obviously broken mechanics is to join a guild.....
When the complaint is, "I can't find decent people who want to let me play with them", then I am inclined to suggest that finding decent people to play with is a reasonable solution.
I have now heard "smoothest run ever" from a very skilled guildmate on a couple of dungeon runs where it's been my first or second time in the dungeon, playing a GWF who is not especially geared due to aforementioned lack of dungeon experience. In FH, we had two GFs in the party, plus my GWF. In Karrundax, we had a GF and my GWF, and our DC made a mistake early on in the dragon fight and ended up sitting it out. Bringing fighters did not make these into fail groups. We don't endlessly run dungeons because nobody's schedule permits it, but we do just fine without anyone needing to take a snotty attitude that only certain classes get to participate. Everyone is welcome if they're willing to listen and learn and not be a jerk.
When the complaint is, "I can't find decent people who want to let me play with them", then I am inclined to suggest that finding decent people to play with is a reasonable solution.
Nothing in your post changes the fact that in general CW > all other classes for running dungeons and has been so ever since Open Beta.
Whether decent people will help or not, this core balance design issue remains unfixed.
It is true, if the GWF is good and PvE specced, damage should be around the same at same gear.
2 examples:
- MC full, approx same gear (r7-8s, perfect vorpals), barely came on top of GWF with my CW, so I'd say same damage
- VT, I was the lone CW, GWF with BiS everything, legendary artifact Rank 10s, double my damage in the end (no kidding). I'd say this was because of gear disparity (basically after softcap stats, you need to increase Power for both classes), I had 5K Power, GWF had 9500+ Power, but also because of one extremely important issue: my CW had to blink so **** much all the time to survive the hard hitting hordes of VT. GWF can go unstoppable and dish constant damage. This is a huge advantage.
Sadly, almost all complaining GWFs are PvP specced, so their damage is lacking a lot. However I find even PvP specced, resilient GWFs very fun to play with and I used to prefer them over TRs for CN back in the sweet days when we farmed it often.
I've said this quite a few times: if people don't want to take you GWFs on parties... they are either not understanding the GWF capabilities, either you don't know to play a GWF properly and disappoint in parties. Show off you huge DPS output and survivability in a few runs and I can guarantee that people will send you /tells often to invite you in their runs.
-So valiant can get head to head with good CWs huh... damm, who woulda thought!!
Guess what, i dont have problems either, dkcandy neither and well none of the 18k+ well speced GFs... yet we are what, 1% of the player base? and we dont represent it, CWs are still way too dominant in the endgame meta because you can just melt the packs of mobs and gear & skill become kinda unimportant because they can cover other party members little mistakes, right now, if you want to farm efectively (time/cost) you run 3 CWs parties, it is what it is, heck, TRs are now USELESS in pve, HR are the fad of the month but they are easily replaceable by another CW and DCs are less and less everyday and coveted like the nerdy hot girl in a scifi convention.
No, this game is not infuriating, is really really fun to play, when you play with good parties the combat and gameplay are awesome, exciting, demanding and really worth it, but there are serious balance issues in PvE that can be really frustrating for new 60s.
First: join a guild, make friends ARE NOT solutions to the problem. It's just a way SOME players use to get around the problem. And not everyone can/ want join a guild or build a community of friends to play with. Some players want just to have some random fun.
Now, since "join a guild" and "make friends" is not a requirement to be able to enjoy the game, it's the devs fault if the game itself fails at working when it comes to PvE mechanics and queue system.
Now, people is brainless and we all know that. I won't start insulting the greedy or "serious" part of the community, it would be too easy. What i want to say is that since you know there's this part of the community, you've to build a system that actually can prevent such behaviours.
First of all, you should make the dungeons exploit-free. This is one thing. VT right now is flooded with stacked CWs/HRs cause the exploit is STILL there. Funny being able to beat the end-boss without a scratch, not so much when the exploit actually leave 3 classes out of the game.
Second, you should really build dungeons so that a tank is NEEDED to pass through it, and a TR single target DPS is NEEDED to kill the end-boss. Valindra fight, when done legit, sure is easier if you have a GWF/ GF and a TR.
All dungeons should be build so that stacking CWs is not convenient. Be it CC resistance, or magic resistance/ immunity of certain mobs, or anything else. But the thing is, 2-3 stacked CWs should be ripped to shreds by mobs if they attempt to go through a epic dungeon with such party. When you design a dungeon, you've to put parts where a tank (be it GWF or GF) is NOT REPLACEABLE and is the only way to keep moving. You've to design a end boss where a TR high ST DPS is NOT REPLACEABLE. Valindra requires a DPS race in the end, making TRs needed for that fight.
Also: get rid of the 2/3 2/4 3/4 runs. Give a final loot and that's it. Make it bigger, i don't care. But people running only a part of a dungeon is not WAI if you ask me.
Rework dungeons, make tanking and high DPS on boss the ONLY choice. Matchmaking can lfg chat can do the rest.
Then you'd have the problem that every dungeon requires a full, balanced team of 5, when the percentage of each class by population is waaaay out of whack. TRs are ten a penny, GFs...less so. So you'd still have a ton of annoyed people. Plus of course, not all GFs are super tanky., neither are many GWFs (I've met a ton of GWFs who THINK they are, admittedly).
And of course, now we have 6 classes. Who gets booted?
Designing a system so that dungeons CAN be completed with almost any team composition is (to my mind) a better approach than a system that forces very specific team compositions. It's just that the former approach allows for greater gaming of the system.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Then you'd have the problem that every dungeon requires a full, balanced team of 5, when the percentage of each class by population is waaaay out of whack. TRs are ten a penny, GFs...less so. So you'd still have a ton of annoyed people. Plus of course, not all GFs are super tanky., neither are many GWFs (I've met a ton of GWFs who THINK they are, admittedly).
And of course, now we have 6 classes. Who gets booted?
Designing a system so that dungeons CAN be completed with almost any team composition is (to my mind) a better approach than a system that forces very specific team compositions. It's just that the former approach allows for greater gaming of the system.
You can make people choose role as they queue: DPS, Healing or Tanking.
Simple as that.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
That doesn't solve the issue of CWs being dominant (seriously, I've seen 5xCW legit VT, don't even need a Cleric) only fixes the issue that some bosses can be beaten by a CW/DC/HR with no threat to themselves ... which is only an issue because it means bosses like Hand of Magaera are insanely hard (relative to more normal fights) for melee classes and won't get nerfed because "they are beatable if you bring the right class"
What needs to be fixed is the number of adds, the damage the adds do, how easilly they are controllable, and that most Bosses are extremely melee-unfriendly due to random teleporting/jumping and excessive close burst attacks (ex. GG T2 King uses an attack that melee have to dodge every 3 seconds, TR have 1 dodge every 5 seconds meaning they have to phsyically run out of nearly half the attacks)
After new year i will make from all t2 dungeon's video full time how y can duo or solo legit .
An will show y GWF is superior above CW much more inportant if y want to do legit easy way.
Today my old fiend comes up he wanted my old cw for FH"mybe for not legit run idk" .... i say-d to him he need only Sarevok..
he.s-1 LoL-
I say to him i can deal more dmg- mignate more dmg -can agro add's can- kill andds- and controll add's(all add around me i wont die &you will not die)+ i say to him lets give try if y see i dont fail mybe y change y mind ....
he.s- k but if y fail i will v.kik...
After the Full legit succesfull run i gon another 4 new friends nobody die on this run.
Belive me all melee are fine the biggest problem ppl whant to cheat all time no matter if legit run is faster .
I killed with my TR friend Hand of Magaera in 55 sec TOP-record. CW's try to cheat all time and it take more then 4-5 min.
Persephone: I'm not sure which question you're answering, there.
You'd still have the problem that the DPS bit of the queue would have a line a mile long (because ZOMG DMG NUMBERZ), the healing line would be a fraction of the size, and the tanking queue would make the cleric line look amazing.
And it assumes people can do the role they think they can. See "tanky GWFs", above.
Also, people would queue as "Healing" on their TRs so they could actually get in a dungeon. While this would be hilarious, it would also be frustrating.
Edit: also, laughing so hard at the 16.8k GS GWF saying "this game is easy, lol". When you're 10,000 points higher than the requirement for a dungeon, you're....probably overgeared.
Then you'd have the problem that every dungeon requires a full, balanced team of 5, when the percentage of each class by population is waaaay out of whack. TRs are ten a penny, GFs...less so. So you'd still have a ton of annoyed people. Plus of course, not all GFs are super tanky., neither are many GWFs (I've met a ton of GWFs who THINK they are, admittedly).
And of course, now we have 6 classes. Who gets booted?
Designing a system so that dungeons CAN be completed with almost any team composition is (to my mind) a better approach than a system that forces very specific team compositions. It's just that the former approach allows for greater gaming of the system.
GF can switch place with GWF for tanking. So you need one class or the other. Also you can balance with other classes. For example, in VT you can either have a very strong DPS party to DPS rush, or have a very good tank to kite adds while you kill Valindra.
But going with 1 TR and 1 tank is the optimal choice.
What they need to prevent right now is the 2-3 stacked CWs parties being the only choice. So i'd just focus in making all T2 dungeons PURE HELL when attempted with such parties.
Also prefer to have to queue or form party for a bit more to get a tank or a TR, than keep going on with this 3 CWs stacked parties. It completely kills PvE for lvl 60 GWFs/GFs/TRs.
Would also teach to a part of the community that if they want a fast system they have to learn to play and stop being greedy.
You ruin the game forming 4CWs-1DC parties to exploit dungeons? Fine, we change the dungeons so that a party with stacked CWs get wiped fast. You want a more permissive system? Don't exploit/ ruin it and just play normal. Which means, when you form a party, you don't exclude the other classes. I would do that.
It's a solution that hurts the game much less than the actual approach that completely nullify the end-game PvE for 3 classes out of 6.
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jeffro9000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 121Bounty Hunter
edited December 2013
After module 2 my swordmaster, destroyer gwf can keep pace with wizards' dps (even outpacing many geared cw's). We have another gwf in the guild that is an iron vanguard destroyer and he can tank/hold agro as well as anybody.
I don't know about the ranger and gf, but the gwf is a valuable member of any party post mod 2. Maybe opinions will change as people get used to the changes in classes and as more people figure out how to play them well.
And it assumes people can do the role they think they can. See "tanky GWFs", above.
Well, you Always assume that people can do the job you join them for. You join a CW thinking he can cc and deal massive AoE damage. But he may suck a lot and do less damage than a GWF. It happens. If you need a tank you ask for a sentinel, if you need a DPS you can ask for a destroyer. Just let people display if you're a sentinel or a destroyer, based on how much points you put in each path.
The thing is, optimal party composition= faster run must be, clearly, the one that uses more different classes.
Parties with more than 1 of each class stacked, must comparatively SUCK a lot. Aka being much, much slower with a much, much higher chance of wipe.
As i said, it's not perfect but a lot better than the 2-3-4CWs-1DC rule we have now.
After module 2 my swordmaster, destroyer gwf can keep pace with wizards' dps (even outpacing many geared cw's). We have another gwf in the guild that is an iron vanguard destroyer and he can tank/hold agro as well as anybody.
I don't know about the ranger and gf, but the gwf is a valuable member of any party post mod 2. Maybe opinions will change as people get used to the changes in classes and as more people figure out how to play them well.
I do agree, but right now we still have multiple CWs stacked parties as a rule.
My solution is make such parties suck so much in dungeons that nobody will never, ever want to stack more than 1 CW in a party.
You may still be able to run the dungoen with more CWs if you're forced to, but it should be much, much slower and much, much more Dangerous (higher risk of a wipe).
Until they do this, people will keep going on with the strategy that is, or they see as, the more fast/ safe.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited December 2013
I started this new char around 3 month's ,like any one else i had pvp starting gear with 10k gs and rank 6 enchants. and was succesfull whit it too by tanking add's . And dealing dmg ??? before m2 was awfull after modul 2 way better cuz our skill actual can critt now only "slam"is bugged (cant critt)now, but i have 10 k gs gwf too with pvp gear and rank 4 enchats i can do with him all t2 the only difference between the 2 char with sare i can solo and duo dung's .
- Disguise your otherwise useless GWF or GF into universally beloved Control Wizard!
- Get invited in dungeons!
- Includes: total appearance change/new skill effects
- Lasts for 30 minutes
See if they could find truth! What will they do when effect wears of? Get your Control Wizard Disguise Kit from Zen Store right now!
This is brilliant.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Persephone: I'm not sure which question you're answering, there.
You'd still have the problem that the DPS bit of the queue would have a line a mile long (because ZOMG DMG NUMBERZ), the healing line would be a fraction of the size, and the tanking queue would make the cleric line look amazing.
And it assumes people can do the role they think they can. See "tanky GWFs", above.
Well you can only solve issues with coding so far.
In WoW, people had to choose roles in queues (which worked properly). I always had just DPS available as a mage. A Priest could queue as healer or dps depending on spec.
If a priest would queue as a healer and he was dps shadow spec, people would vote-kick him out and there would be replacement pronto.
If a warrior would queue as a tank but cannot tank, talk to the guy, if he would not respond and start tanking properly, kick, queue auto-replaces.
With only 30 minutes the effect could run out before the dungeon is over, revealing to all your party mates that you're not a CW but a GWF/ GF/ TR. Then, trollface right before being votekicked.
What about a party of people all in disguise. Like a DC that start a party with 4 CWs, and after 30 minutes, may be right before the end boss, all his mates turn into GWFs and GFs? Group trollface to the DC right before he quits, leaving you with no healer :P
This guy knows what he is talking about. Plus his GWF is a beast. I was fortunate enough to have him join a pug I was in, I've seen it first hand what he can do.
sidenote:
My GWF can't do what he does because I opted out of the sentinel build and kept the destroy 44% crit with only three 7's two 5's and one 6. When I finally upgrade these stones I should be closer to my Tr's 50% crit, I already see mostly orange anyway and can outdps or keep up with 12k CW's if they don't have perfect vorp. I think sent> all others but I like going in and out of unstoppable quickly so I stuck with destroyer.
'Course, the other thing people seem to be constantly overlooking is just using the actual queue system we have now. You can ALWAYS get into a dungeon, even when nobody is spamming "LF1M NEED TANK" in protector's enclave.
It's not like you click on "queue for castle never" and a window pops up saying "sorry, you must be a CW who knows the shortcuts to enter this dungeon".
I've...actually, now I think about it, I've never joined a party recruiting in PE, I've always either gone with guildies (only joined a guild recently, mind) or pugged it via the queue system. My GF has pugged exclusively, and it's really not that bad.
Belive me all melee are fine the biggest problem ppl whant to cheat all time no matter if legit run is faster .
I killed with my TR friend Hand of Magaera in 55 sec TOP-record.
once i had a feel we killed that boss in like 30 sec xD tr + a cw or 2 but was probably much more than that, but yeah, only noobs need to glitch it
Paladin Master Race
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It's not like you click on "queue for castle never" and a window pops up saying "sorry, you must be a CW who knows the shortcuts to enter this dungeon".
The CN queue is 110% broken. I regularly queue to open chest. I've not seen a normal party in the last 1.1/2 months.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
The CN queue is 110% broken. I regularly queue to open chest. I've not seen a normal party in the last 1.1/2 months.
I dont do much CN cuz the wep choice of MC is much better for any class , only TR have better wep in VT.
Artifact's and new stuff's CN can be done with legit party . But the gs REQ is low i think too low ,need around 12k gs min to do it whitout any cheat's, and y need eng speaking ppl to talk about tactic. MIN req eng speaking "like me" CAP req ppl hou can understand bad eng .
I dont do much CN cuz the wep choice of MC is much better for any class , only TR have better wep in VT.
Actually CWs might have BiS weps in VT as well, because we go above regen softcap with ancients or fomorians/HV/artifact, hence there is room to use the new life steal weapons and still be regen-softcapped
Also nobody I know ever did CN for gear, everybody did CN for AD.
Not anymore...
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Actually CWs might have BiS weps in VT as well, because we go above regen softcap with ancients or fomorians/HV/artifact, hence there is room to use the new life steal weapons and still be regen-softcapped
Also nobody I know ever did CN for gear, everybody did CN for AD.
Not anymore...
I think the soft cap is not the score only the stat 10 % regen 10 % L.S.You must hit it to gain advatage from it ,and for pvp you need much more cuz y have no pets to help boost y stat i have aroud 18xx regen and gives me 11.xx% hp and have only 14xx ls with 7-8 % . But on pvp y need more of those stats to gain advantage.And y can have both good in pvp (you can make mistakes:)) and good in pve(lot of mistakes).
Comments
That doesn't solve the issue of CWs being dominant (seriously, I've seen 5xCW legit VT, don't even need a Cleric) only fixes the issue that some bosses can be beaten by a CW/DC/HR with no threat to themselves ... which is only an issue because it means bosses like Hand of Magaera are insanely hard (relative to more normal fights) for melee classes and won't get nerfed because "they are beatable if you bring the right class"
What needs to be fixed is the number of adds, the damage the adds do, how easilly they are controllable, and that most Bosses are extremely melee-unfriendly due to random teleporting/jumping and excessive close burst attacks (ex. GG T2 King uses an attack that melee have to dodge every 3 seconds, TR have 1 dodge every 5 seconds meaning they have to phsyically run out of nearly half the attacks)
1 time i ran mc with 3 cw gwf and dc and it was so good tried to run again with same setup 5 out of 3 times it was good but the rest party disbanded early in game. the reason was 3 cw way much idiotic, they were just interrupting each other spells, so if 10 parties are forming in PE , y do ppl always notice the single most idiotic party getting formed, they will never look at the rest 9 party which is generally mixed party but always whine about the single party .
so disappointed
When the complaint is, "I can't find decent people who want to let me play with them", then I am inclined to suggest that finding decent people to play with is a reasonable solution.
I have now heard "smoothest run ever" from a very skilled guildmate on a couple of dungeon runs where it's been my first or second time in the dungeon, playing a GWF who is not especially geared due to aforementioned lack of dungeon experience. In FH, we had two GFs in the party, plus my GWF. In Karrundax, we had a GF and my GWF, and our DC made a mistake early on in the dragon fight and ended up sitting it out. Bringing fighters did not make these into fail groups. We don't endlessly run dungeons because nobody's schedule permits it, but we do just fine without anyone needing to take a snotty attitude that only certain classes get to participate. Everyone is welcome if they're willing to listen and learn and not be a jerk.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Nothing in your post changes the fact that in general CW > all other classes for running dungeons and has been so ever since Open Beta.
Whether decent people will help or not, this core balance design issue remains unfixed.
I seriously doubt that...
It is true, if the GWF is good and PvE specced, damage should be around the same at same gear.
2 examples:
- MC full, approx same gear (r7-8s, perfect vorpals), barely came on top of GWF with my CW, so I'd say same damage
- VT, I was the lone CW, GWF with BiS everything, legendary artifact Rank 10s, double my damage in the end (no kidding). I'd say this was because of gear disparity (basically after softcap stats, you need to increase Power for both classes), I had 5K Power, GWF had 9500+ Power, but also because of one extremely important issue: my CW had to blink so **** much all the time to survive the hard hitting hordes of VT. GWF can go unstoppable and dish constant damage. This is a huge advantage.
Sadly, almost all complaining GWFs are PvP specced, so their damage is lacking a lot. However I find even PvP specced, resilient GWFs very fun to play with and I used to prefer them over TRs for CN back in the sweet days when we farmed it often.
I've said this quite a few times: if people don't want to take you GWFs on parties... they are either not understanding the GWF capabilities, either you don't know to play a GWF properly and disappoint in parties. Show off you huge DPS output and survivability in a few runs and I can guarantee that people will send you /tells often to invite you in their runs.
Guess what, i dont have problems either, dkcandy neither and well none of the 18k+ well speced GFs... yet we are what, 1% of the player base? and we dont represent it, CWs are still way too dominant in the endgame meta because you can just melt the packs of mobs and gear & skill become kinda unimportant because they can cover other party members little mistakes, right now, if you want to farm efectively (time/cost) you run 3 CWs parties, it is what it is, heck, TRs are now USELESS in pve, HR are the fad of the month but they are easily replaceable by another CW and DCs are less and less everyday and coveted like the nerdy hot girl in a scifi convention.
No, this game is not infuriating, is really really fun to play, when you play with good parties the combat and gameplay are awesome, exciting, demanding and really worth it, but there are serious balance issues in PvE that can be really frustrating for new 60s.
Now, since "join a guild" and "make friends" is not a requirement to be able to enjoy the game, it's the devs fault if the game itself fails at working when it comes to PvE mechanics and queue system.
Now, people is brainless and we all know that. I won't start insulting the greedy or "serious" part of the community, it would be too easy. What i want to say is that since you know there's this part of the community, you've to build a system that actually can prevent such behaviours.
First of all, you should make the dungeons exploit-free. This is one thing. VT right now is flooded with stacked CWs/HRs cause the exploit is STILL there. Funny being able to beat the end-boss without a scratch, not so much when the exploit actually leave 3 classes out of the game.
Second, you should really build dungeons so that a tank is NEEDED to pass through it, and a TR single target DPS is NEEDED to kill the end-boss. Valindra fight, when done legit, sure is easier if you have a GWF/ GF and a TR.
All dungeons should be build so that stacking CWs is not convenient. Be it CC resistance, or magic resistance/ immunity of certain mobs, or anything else. But the thing is, 2-3 stacked CWs should be ripped to shreds by mobs if they attempt to go through a epic dungeon with such party. When you design a dungeon, you've to put parts where a tank (be it GWF or GF) is NOT REPLACEABLE and is the only way to keep moving. You've to design a end boss where a TR high ST DPS is NOT REPLACEABLE. Valindra requires a DPS race in the end, making TRs needed for that fight.
Also: get rid of the 2/3 2/4 3/4 runs. Give a final loot and that's it. Make it bigger, i don't care. But people running only a part of a dungeon is not WAI if you ask me.
Rework dungeons, make tanking and high DPS on boss the ONLY choice. Matchmaking can lfg chat can do the rest.
And of course, now we have 6 classes. Who gets booted?
Designing a system so that dungeons CAN be completed with almost any team composition is (to my mind) a better approach than a system that forces very specific team compositions. It's just that the former approach allows for greater gaming of the system.
You can make people choose role as they queue: DPS, Healing or Tanking.
Simple as that.
After new year i will make from all t2 dungeon's video full time how y can duo or solo legit .
An will show y GWF is superior above CW much more inportant if y want to do legit easy way.
Today my old fiend comes up he wanted my old cw for FH"mybe for not legit run idk" .... i say-d to him he need only Sarevok..
he.s-1 LoL-
I say to him i can deal more dmg- mignate more dmg -can agro add's can- kill andds- and controll add's(all add around me i wont die &you will not die)+ i say to him lets give try if y see i dont fail mybe y change y mind ....
he.s- k but if y fail i will v.kik...
After the Full legit succesfull run i gon another 4 new friends nobody die on this run.
Belive me all melee are fine the biggest problem ppl whant to cheat all time no matter if legit run is faster .
I killed with my TR friend Hand of Magaera in 55 sec TOP-record. CW's try to cheat all time and it take more then 4-5 min.
You'd still have the problem that the DPS bit of the queue would have a line a mile long (because ZOMG DMG NUMBERZ), the healing line would be a fraction of the size, and the tanking queue would make the cleric line look amazing.
And it assumes people can do the role they think they can. See "tanky GWFs", above.
Also, people would queue as "Healing" on their TRs so they could actually get in a dungeon. While this would be hilarious, it would also be frustrating.
Edit: also, laughing so hard at the 16.8k GS GWF saying "this game is easy, lol". When you're 10,000 points higher than the requirement for a dungeon, you're....probably overgeared.
GF can switch place with GWF for tanking. So you need one class or the other. Also you can balance with other classes. For example, in VT you can either have a very strong DPS party to DPS rush, or have a very good tank to kite adds while you kill Valindra.
But going with 1 TR and 1 tank is the optimal choice.
What they need to prevent right now is the 2-3 stacked CWs parties being the only choice. So i'd just focus in making all T2 dungeons PURE HELL when attempted with such parties.
Also prefer to have to queue or form party for a bit more to get a tank or a TR, than keep going on with this 3 CWs stacked parties. It completely kills PvE for lvl 60 GWFs/GFs/TRs.
Would also teach to a part of the community that if they want a fast system they have to learn to play and stop being greedy.
You ruin the game forming 4CWs-1DC parties to exploit dungeons? Fine, we change the dungeons so that a party with stacked CWs get wiped fast. You want a more permissive system? Don't exploit/ ruin it and just play normal. Which means, when you form a party, you don't exclude the other classes. I would do that.
It's a solution that hurts the game much less than the actual approach that completely nullify the end-game PvE for 3 classes out of 6.
I don't know about the ranger and gf, but the gwf is a valuable member of any party post mod 2. Maybe opinions will change as people get used to the changes in classes and as more people figure out how to play them well.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
Well, you Always assume that people can do the job you join them for. You join a CW thinking he can cc and deal massive AoE damage. But he may suck a lot and do less damage than a GWF. It happens. If you need a tank you ask for a sentinel, if you need a DPS you can ask for a destroyer. Just let people display if you're a sentinel or a destroyer, based on how much points you put in each path.
The thing is, optimal party composition= faster run must be, clearly, the one that uses more different classes.
Parties with more than 1 of each class stacked, must comparatively SUCK a lot. Aka being much, much slower with a much, much higher chance of wipe.
As i said, it's not perfect but a lot better than the 2-3-4CWs-1DC rule we have now.
I do agree, but right now we still have multiple CWs stacked parties as a rule.
My solution is make such parties suck so much in dungeons that nobody will never, ever want to stack more than 1 CW in a party.
You may still be able to run the dungoen with more CWs if you're forced to, but it should be much, much slower and much, much more Dangerous (higher risk of a wipe).
Until they do this, people will keep going on with the strategy that is, or they see as, the more fast/ safe.
sorry fo bad eng
This is brilliant.
Well you can only solve issues with coding so far.
In WoW, people had to choose roles in queues (which worked properly). I always had just DPS available as a mage. A Priest could queue as healer or dps depending on spec.
If a priest would queue as a healer and he was dps shadow spec, people would vote-kick him out and there would be replacement pronto.
If a warrior would queue as a tank but cannot tank, talk to the guy, if he would not respond and start tanking properly, kick, queue auto-replaces.
You cannot "solve" bad players with programming.
What about a party of people all in disguise. Like a DC that start a party with 4 CWs, and after 30 minutes, may be right before the end boss, all his mates turn into GWFs and GFs? Group trollface to the DC right before he quits, leaving you with no healer :P
This guy knows what he is talking about. Plus his GWF is a beast. I was fortunate enough to have him join a pug I was in, I've seen it first hand what he can do.
sidenote:
My GWF can't do what he does because I opted out of the sentinel build and kept the destroy 44% crit with only three 7's two 5's and one 6. When I finally upgrade these stones I should be closer to my Tr's 50% crit, I already see mostly orange anyway and can outdps or keep up with 12k CW's if they don't have perfect vorp. I think sent> all others but I like going in and out of unstoppable quickly so I stuck with destroyer.
It's not like you click on "queue for castle never" and a window pops up saying "sorry, you must be a CW who knows the shortcuts to enter this dungeon".
I've...actually, now I think about it, I've never joined a party recruiting in PE, I've always either gone with guildies (only joined a guild recently, mind) or pugged it via the queue system. My GF has pugged exclusively, and it's really not that bad.
once i had a feel we killed that boss in like 30 sec xD tr + a cw or 2 but was probably much more than that, but yeah, only noobs need to glitch it
The CN queue is 110% broken. I regularly queue to open chest. I've not seen a normal party in the last 1.1/2 months.
I dont do much CN cuz the wep choice of MC is much better for any class , only TR have better wep in VT.
Artifact's and new stuff's CN can be done with legit party . But the gs REQ is low i think too low ,need around 12k gs min to do it whitout any cheat's, and y need eng speaking ppl to talk about tactic. MIN req eng speaking "like me" CAP req ppl hou can understand bad eng
Actually CWs might have BiS weps in VT as well, because we go above regen softcap with ancients or fomorians/HV/artifact, hence there is room to use the new life steal weapons and still be regen-softcapped
Also nobody I know ever did CN for gear, everybody did CN for AD.
Not anymore...
I think the soft cap is not the score only the stat 10 % regen 10 % L.S.You must hit it to gain advatage from it ,and for pvp you need much more cuz y have no pets to help boost y stat i have aroud 18xx regen and gives me 11.xx% hp and have only 14xx ls with 7-8 % . But on pvp y need more of those stats to gain advantage.And y can have both good in pvp (you can make mistakes:)) and good in pve(lot of mistakes).