Refinement: Technical Details

beckylunatic

adinosii said:

darkstarrfoff said:

They should allow class artifacts but only epic and above. That way you don't just get free RP infinitely reclaimable.

Even simpler: Make any rank 1 artifact just give 0 RP. That way you basically only get credit for the RPs put into it, not the artifact itself. This would allow people to recycle "infiitely reclaimable" class sigils and the red dragon one.

I think this is maybe not a terrific overall solution because the new system does have the effect of removing uses for BtA/BtC artifact drops. I think I'd rather they be worth a pittance of RP rather than being an instant discard.

(I also see it greatly dropping the market value of unpopular artifacts, since demand is going to crash hard. Even popular artifacts are subject to finite demand as once each character gets them, they likely won't even need another. Artifacts knowledgeable players don't use? Worthless.)

jaime4312

@noworries double state enchantments need a slight stats increase, at rank 14 they currently are barely better than a single stat enchantment. 600 - 600 or a bit higher would be better.

plasticbat

jaime4312#3760 said:

@noworries double state enchantments need a slight stats increase, at rank 12 they currently are barely better than a single stat enchantment. 600 - 600 or a bit higher would be better.

Single stat in r12: 700
Double stat in r12: 425+425 = 850

Making it 600+600, that means nobody who is sane will use Single stat.

mightyeriksson

plasticbat said:

jaime4312#3760 said:

@noworries double state enchantments need a slight stats increase, at rank 12 they currently are barely better than a single stat enchantment. 600 - 600 or a bit higher would be better.

Single stat in r12: 700
Double stat in r12: 425+425 = 850

Making it 600+600, that means nobody who is sane will use Single stat.

Obviously he means at rank 14 (I hope) and yes, they should be 615-625x2 at rank 14

plasticbat

mightyeriksson said:

plasticbat said:

jaime4312#3760 said:

@noworries double state enchantments need a slight stats increase, at rank 12 they currently are barely better than a single stat enchantment. 600 - 600 or a bit higher would be better.

Single stat in r12: 700
Double stat in r12: 425+425 = 850

Making it 600+600, that means nobody who is sane will use Single stat.

Obviously he means at rank 14 (I hope) and yes, they should be 615-625x2 at rank 14

Ok, for rank 14, I also don't see the current dev proposal is out of line.

The difference between one stat enchantment and total of 2 stat enchantment is the following from r1 to r14.

5, 10, 25, 50, 50, 50, 50, 100, 100, 100, 100, 150, 150, 150.

dogis

sry, remove it please.

jaime4312

@plasticbat @mightyeriksson I meant rank 14 on my previous post but somehow wrote 12 instead. Anyway, double stats enchs at rank 14 look lacking

santralafax

I'm pretty much done. I'll collect my VIP and continue ranking up my third character until Mod 12-B, but I'm not going through another Mod 6 situation. Taking away AD from regular dungeon runs, nerfing bondings after buffing them to an extreme, more ranks of enchants, the list goes on.

The game gets ever more expensive.

mahburg

Will existing Marks be converted to Enchanting Stones at 12B or will they just be Junk?
I ask this as many Guilds like ours have significant stocks of these we use to help lowbies rank up?

luks707

lowjohn said:

asa#5821 said:

I would certainly prefer an STO-style upgrade system, where every failed upgrade adds to the chance of the next attempt. So if you fail a 1%, the next chance is 2%, then 3%, etc, up until you finally get the success and the chance of the NEXT upgrade resets to zero.

This - If you introduce that, no matter how bad you luck is - you have a sense of progress. Given that you are already making a huge change - please consider introducing this. It will make the whole thing a much much more positive experience. Yes you fail, but it won't be as bad next time. Atm you fail and fail and fail and are left with nothing.

luks707

marieti84#8867 said:

Any plans on the relic weapons, and what they require? Lots of players have to run MSVA a bunch of times to get the stones needed to even upgrade the weapon, will they be taken away as well, and replaced with this new system?

It would be great to get answer on the relic weapons and their requirements - to be honest I think everyone would be delighted and relieved if you brought them into line with the new system. Or rather than having 3 types of marks, just have one type of mark. Either way - it would be good to get clarity on them and their rp please.

luks707

Hm ... previous quote didn't quite work. My proposal to make the whole preservation ward experience less awful is to introduce a system whereby you add 1% every time you fail an upgrade. That way, you have a sense of progress at minimum and still get that feeling of delight if it happens "early".
The problem with preservation wards at present is that distribution curve - the lower the percentage is, the higher the chance of an outlier with ridiculous costs. And there is nothing that outlier can do about it other than use a coal ward which is hugely wasteful for most levels (but the top one).
Frankly - if that happened, I'd be happy to pay the increase in chance in the form of a fixed cost in marks of potency and I think quite a few people would agree with that. Clearly this principle is being applied to weapon/armor enhancements, but here the cost is coming a bit too much at the higher levels, while the savings are mainly at the lower levels where currently drops from lockboxes keep the market cheap.

luks707

One final comment - you need a find a solution to keeping artifacts relevant now they no longer work as feeders.
My proposal for this to increase the base RP value of a green artifact significantly. An artifact SHOULD be something special. All artifacts and items of artifact equipemnt (bar the free ones like sigils and Dragon arti) should be worth a lot more than a normal RP item dropping. That would should make you go "yay an artifact" when you loot one.
For the free items that amount could then be taken away so you would only take the refinement out that you've put in...

mahburg

Just a note here, before believing anything we are being told, remember what happened with "legacy mounts" we were told that all Purple mounts we had gained via the tradebar store etc that had 4K equip powers would be treat as legacy and would keep their powers at 4K when the nerf to two occurred.

What happened? Only the purple mount equipped retained its "legacy power" all others in the stable or in the holding area got nerfed (a goodly number across my Alts).

We have been here many many times before.

ecrana

luks707 said:

marieti84#8867 said:

Any plans on the relic weapons, and what they require? Lots of players have to run MSVA a bunch of times to get the stones needed to even upgrade the weapon, will they be taken away as well, and replaced with this new system?

It would be great to get answer on the relic weapons and their requirements - to be honest I think everyone would be delighted and relieved if you brought them into line with the new system. Or rather than having 3 types of marks, just have one type of mark. Either way - it would be good to get clarity on them and their rp please.

There's a part of me that would highly welcome the relic weapons being changed to work with this new system.

Then there's the part of me that has gotten used to the tactics used in NW. If they did change the requirements for relic weapons to do away with the custom refinement stones and the marks from MSVA I would expect it to be in a way that makes us unhappy. They would probably require the stones you can only get from ToNG to get to legendary. Because it only makes sense to make you have to run the hardest content in the game to upgrade a weapon set that was released before that dungeon came out.

I doubt it would happen anyway. SoMi is built around farming so that you make keys for each of the 3 chests in MSVA. If you could just use the normal marks you can buy like superiors then you don't need to run MSVA. Unless they make MSVA a new drop spot for the ultimates. But they've already said that ToNG will be the only place those drop.

darthtzarr

Currently r13 and r14 enchants cannot be donated to the stronghold coffer. It would be awesome if this functionality were added. Guild Mark cap may need adjusted to simply fit the guild mark values though (it has somewhat needed a cap increase for awhile now though).

darthtzarr

treesclimber said:

-Soulforged: Weak healing, no point in progressing past lesser

I mostly agree... but doesn't the cooldown get reduced for higher?

beckylunatic

darthtzarr said:

treesclimber said:

-Soulforged: Weak healing, no point in progressing past lesser

I mostly agree... but doesn't the cooldown get reduced for higher?

Yeah, more HP restored (not necessarily much compared to character total, but increased) and can be triggered more often, from 90 seconds at lesser to 75 at trans. It wasn't especially worth the expense in PvE previously, but I am considering it as a thing to work towards now. Uhhh... maybe only once Robert gets cracking on detangling the visual FX from the combat traits though.

armadeonx

Have they published on what Weapon and Armor enchantments will be like at the new level..?

plasticbat

armadeonx said:

Have they published on what Weapon and Armor enchantments will be like at the new level..?

If you are talking about refinement cost, it is on page 1.

ibz4ez

After being on the preview server, testing things out. I can safely say that All current BiS players are Better in MOD12 than in MOD12B.
If that doesn't sound absurd to you @noworries#8859, let me compare it to something similar:
-> Making players worse in MOD12B is like phone companies offering a compulsory free upgrade to a next-gen phone with worse specs, then charging them to make their new next-gen phone 20% better than it currently is, knowing that's still worse than the phone they had previously. #ByeByeBondings #AndLogic

Oh by the way players out there thinking of getting some shiny new enchants: Upgrading Enhancements from r12 to r13 is a waste of time for the following enhancements: Vorpal, Dread, Feytouched, Negation, Elven Battle. This is because the r13 enchants give an overall 1-5% increase in stats, for more than 3mil worth of AD in refinement "Stuff".

Other r13 upgrades are slightly better, but considering most of your armourPen from bondings is gone, all the benefits of other enhancements are going to get foiled by the Damage Resistance of enemies in Chult that you'll no longer be penetrating.

jrdiiorio

what are r7 enchants worth in rp? Sitting on a bunch of tarmalune bars or are the r7s gone from there? I'm on PS4 so I don't have access to preview.

plasticbat

jrdiiorio#8134 said:

what are r7 enchants worth in rp? Sitting on a bunch of tarmalune bars or are the r7s gone from there? I'm on PS4 so I don't have access to preview.

1000. The info is in page 1. Note that: the RP scale will be different. That 1000 is not the same as the current 1000.

armadeonx

plasticbat said:

armadeonx said:

Have they published on what Weapon and Armor enchantments will be like at the new level..?

If you are talking about refinement cost, it is on page 1.

No, I want to know what their new damage values will be at the new top rank!

c3rb3r3

armadeonx said:

plasticbat said:

armadeonx said:

Have they published on what Weapon and Armor enchantments will be like at the new level..?

If you are talking about refinement cost, it is on page 1.

No, I want to know what their new damage values will be at the new top rank!

Weapon Damage % increase is not more than 5% for all Enchantments. And if it's a damage increase it's 1-2%

beckylunatic

Feedback: Drop rates of reagent items in Leadership
I may be missing a subtlety, but Lesser Enchanting (or Enchantment) Stones don't appear to be used for much of anything, though they will be dropped in absolutely enormous quantities from Leadership containers. They are not used in the enchantment upgrade process at all, which is admittedly the same as the live build in which green artifact-specific marks are only used for artifact and artifact equipment upgrades. But on live, they aren't produced at nearly this expected rate either, since they don't drop from the artifact/thaum/resonant bags. Not really a complaint since they can be turned into RP if desired, but it does seem unbalanced. It wouldn't be unreasonable to tweak drop rates to reduce these somewhat and increase blue enchantment stone/MoP/GMoP to help players more with the upgrade process.

nirafelos

treesclimber said:

When it comes to the new R13 Weapon and armour enchants i think they are receiving a wrong approach, there are certain enchantments that nobody uses in spite of having been reworked and what the new R13 are is simply a improved version of R12, if the R12 is bad so will the R13 be. What i mean is and approach to this:

-Flaming: Dot is not fast enough;
-Plague: Dot is not fast enough;
-Bilethorn: Dot is not fast enough;
-Lifedrinker: Life steal enough to survive can be achieved very easily and severity is not needed higher than it is.

-Soulforged: Weak healing, no point in progressing past lesser;
-Bloodtheft: Healing and damage miserable;
-Briartwine: Damage ridiculously low, probably the worst of all;
-Thunderhead/ Frostburn: Effect almost unoticeable, not even close to be worth in comparisson to others;
-Shadowclad: Has a big "nothing" sometimes, what can be quite good for a while can also be terrible for another.
-BarkShield: In pvp even the tiniest hit can remove a stack, while it's nthing amazing against big hitters as well.

This doesn't mean that in the future it will be impossible to rework lower ranks, more like "there is not a viable rank of this enchantment now".

Also vorpal and dread are not improving much as other enchantments, specially considering crit severity will not be as effective in high values of crit severity and combat advantage combined, at least 10% increase instead of 5 is not too much.

I'd love to discuss this some too.

• Flaming, Plaguefire: it's not even really that the DoT isn't fast enough, but that the DoT is "clippable", meaning that if you attack fast enough, it never gets to tick. These enchants are still worth considering for some builds due solely to their debuffs, but more effort needs to be put into ensuring that the debuffs correctly stack when applied by multiple players.
  
• Bilethorn: Really cool, but goes from BiS to garbage the second mobs go from taking 4.0001s to 3.999s to kill. Should be adjusted to explode after 4s **or on death**. That would still be bad on spread out mobs or on instantly killed AoE mobs, but in most situations would allow for lots of lovely exploding.
  
• Lifedrinker: This honestly should be a contender for BiS for at least the lifesteal-driven Temptation warlock, but instead it's just considered garbage. I think a big part of that is actually how poorly SW powers interact with %weapon dmg enchantment procs, and the fact that Lifedrinker's % is on the low end of that spectrum as well. That and it's unclear whether ls sev has any affect for them, and they have multiple choices of class features to slot that give them 5-8% LS a pop, which further reduces the need for more. No idea how to solve this tbh, but a debuff would go a long way towards making it usable (it worked with Terror!).
  
• Vorpal/Dread: These are already BiS for a lot of people, but the difference between Trans and Unparalleled is basically nil due to diminishing returns on Crit Sev% and due to the 200% shared hardcap with combat advantage dmg%. Further, the % on Vorpal is at 50% for R10-12, and it just gets a 2% debuff to dmg and resistance at 11 and 12 respectively. These are exceptionally weak upgrades, but *are* upgrades. a 5% buff to severity legitimately isn't an upgrade for a lot of people. Something like 2% crit chance on vorpal and 4% crit chance on encounter powers on dread would be appropriate and HAMSTER and help maintain the cap post-bondings nerf? I see that R13 already increases the debuff from 2% to 3% for vorpal (this is still near-meaninglessly low), but that Dread's two stacking 4% debuffs are unchanged. It would also be nice if the debuffs from these were changed to stack like Terror's can.
  
• Frost and Bronzewood: Now that the cost of these will no longer reflect their diminished usefulness compared to 100% uptime debuffs, it's time to re-scale these.
  
• Soulforged: agreed, lesser soulforged already has everything you need from this enchant. unless you rework these entirely to add a valuable secondary effect -- increasing the temporary immunity duration post-resurrection, a heal or shield or DR that triggers under 50% hp, ability to resurrect additional allies along with yourself, exemption from applying rez sickness -- no one will upgrade from lesser other than extreme minmaxers who want the item level.
  
• Shadowclad: Kind of has three problems, none of which are super major, but all of which work to make this a second-class enchant. This enchant is often used by tanks after they have reached the 80% DR cap. Problem 1) This makes the DR% granted by Shadowclad R11/12 useless for such tanks. Problem 2) Stealthing dumps threat, which means a tank *cannot safely* rank Shadowclad above 11, which is sad, because the daze effect would be cool for them. Problem 3) Shadowclad improves deflection chance most with a baseline investment in deflection, but with sufficient base deflection investment, it is possible to reach 100% deflection before reaching 8 stacks, which means the daze/stealth effect will never occur. This "solves" the issue tanks have with the stealth half, but they'd benefit from the daze half, and it further diminishes the PVP use of this enchantment on TRs and HRs.
  
• Bloodtheft: probably needs its cooldown removed entirely, tbh, or else set to the duration of the heal over time. With no cooldown and a 20% proc chance, this would be equivalent to 40% DR (the same as negation at 10 stacks), with the caveat that it requires the hit to not kill you.
  
• Briartwine: should scale off of power/buffs/debuffs, but is otherwise cool and fine.
  
• Frostburn/Thunderhead/Fireburst: Literally only used by anyone because they look cool. Also probably need their cooldowns significantly reduced or removed entirely if you want people to ever use them for their effects.
  
• Negation: generally only used by tanks who can't yet cap DR without it, because everyone else wants to avoid getting hit frequently enough to keep this stacked. No idea how to solve this.
  
• Elven Battle: the go-to PVP enchant for lots of folks, but largely pointless in PVE. I'd totally use it if Unparalleled slapped 10% movement speed on it as well.
  

c3rb3r3

nirafelos said:

Bronzewood: Now that the cost of these will no longer reflect their diminished usefulness compared to 100% uptime debuffs, it's time to re-scale these.

Briartwine: should scale off of power/buffs/debuffs, but is otherwise cool and fine.

Bronzewood now deals Arcane damages and Briartwine is now useful but I will not reveal it as I need one and I can't afford it yet

ravenskya

nirafelos said:

Frostburn/Thunderhead/Fireburst: Literally only used by anyone because they look cool. Also probably need their cooldowns significantly reduced or removed entirely if you want people to ever use them for their effects.

I am one of those people... I love the way they look - but they serve no purpose in the grand scheme of things. I have to take it off for something more useful when we go into end game dungeons.

protrctor42

@noworries
Sorry if this has been asked, but what will be the price of an SMOP in the Wonderous Bazaar when 12B goes live. Thank you for your response.