darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
@thefabricant those are good ideas but you cant remove the control aspect of the base powers because you will make low levels a nightmare. Other games make powers stronger as you get stronger, so you can rework level 4-5 oppresor feats to make your control powers control elite mobs (this is what really matters) and let the base power control low level minions.
Other ideas are fine. Control should be viable. Control is fun.
@thefabricant those are good ideas but you cant remove the control aspect of the base powers because you will make low levels a nightmare. Other games make powers stronger as you get stronger, so you can rework level 4-5 oppresor feats to make your control powers control elite mobs (this is what really matters) and let the base power control low level minions.
Other ideas are fine. Control should be viable. Control is fun.
Agreed. It would be a nightmare leveling up a CW with no CC lol.
Also, I'm old-school. I've done my time on all 3 Paragon paths. The CW has a very clear-cut set of options. Oppressor is the CC path, Thaumaturge is the DPS path, and Renegade is the support path. If a CW chooses to be a Thaumaturge, shouldn't they have the right to be equally competitive when it comes to DPS? Otherwise, what's the point of even having it as an option? Most classes get their DPS as they want it. Even WITH Icy Veins, it's impossible for a Thaumaturge to take Paingiver now.
This may be a little extreme, but what if they merged Arcane Presence and Chilling Presence? Or maybe put do something like they did with Chilling Advantage for Arcane Presence for the Thaumaturge tree? Having it slotted gives you a 20% damage buff. Or something like Icy Veins? Using an encounter gives you 5 stacks of Arcane Mastery? As extreme as those sound, it'll take something that extreme to balance us out now. Or a bunch of small things to equate to something like that.
Noone but you will miss DPS CWs, you have been cheesy cooky cutter for way to long. Surely you ran around not only with Lostmauth, but with Negation on top? To me CWs are equal to Astral Resonator exploiters, not punished hard enough for unfair advantages which take no skill. I'm grateful CWs are punished for once!
That being said I as a former DC player see nothing but nerfs on DCs side since ever! Astral shield? nerfed into oblivion. Linked spirit? They weren't able to fix it so they removed it.... DC feats? Worst of the game and still nerfed, because "they interacted with OP abilities"... Geas? People don't even skill it anymore.
You CWs have no reason to cry and any nerfs towards you are justified. The one thing I could agree with, is making MoF more valuable.
And I won't miss ppl with this attitude when I make a party...
If you think CWs are happy being a buffer companion for GWFs/SWs think again!
Astral shield nerfs? Haven't been use that for ages. Linked Spirit? It has superior buffs than that old thing!
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited April 2016
you can build a class with a augment that costs 1/10th of a bonding setup. You may be marginlized, but not really all that disadvantaged (my GWF without bonding stones, gets to 83% crit now.. I have no doubt that would be 100% crit with bonding set up.. but woopie doopie) I dont even have total avenger gear on its augment..)
Your talking a matter of reasonable degrees, owlbear is a super rare out of a defunct (IE not as opened box) if you didnt buy one.. you are now forced to pay 3.5 million for one.
We are talking base semantics , vs unique builds.
A regular played CW newbish player.. should be able to slot a goat companion (at 100k) some avenger/or other crit gear (a few hundred k) some r8s slotted in every slot.. and be ok..
at this juncture they are not.
you cannot possible defend a build (with 3 owlbears on the market as I type this) costing almost 1000X as much to be viable (base here would be owlbear + at least all r10s in every slot)
that is beyond ludicrous.
The base semantics of the CW are just clearly too inferior at the moment and was simply not showing due to the crutch of the elol set.
WE all knew this day would come.. what happens now is up to the devs, we can just give our feedback.
BTW LIA is 100% right about the ACTUAL game mechanics. I think Sharp would even agree with that part of it.. the game has been so easy for the last few mods .. that even players like me.. average joes, can pretty much rolf stomp everything and get it done. However, I think many of us who play the CW class, DO NOT AT all want to be pigeonholed as a DEBUFFER only. So I would disagree with her there.
THERE is nothing wrong with being support.. I play that class already.. its called righteous DC. I quite enjoy it.. but dont want to just be another debuffer on my cw.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I just want to make sure we all generally agree that what the CW needs is not just more DPS. I think a lot of us went the route of the CW because it was originally more than just DPS. The control, the debuffs, the buffs...plus a healthy dose of AOE damage, was important.
I actually enjoyed the game when the CW was more of a support class, who's job was to corral and CC mobs, and do what they could to debuff. That was the original meta. Then, when the game because easier because of gear-inflation, more damage became the meta...basically Module 3-5. When Module 6 launched, the game was indeed harder again, but the CC resistance of mobs in dungeons became so ridiculous, there was no room for CC. And so the more damage meta stuck around.
So now what's the future look like? I would honestly love to see a future for the Control Wizard where the "Control" aspect was special a special part of the class. Whether people choose to go all the way on CC or all the way to damage, or a mix should be up to the player.
Again, in an idea world and in my humble opinion:
Oppressor - CC/Debuff (to be effective against CC immune targets like bosses) Thaumaturge - DPS Renegade - Buffs
I agree prior to Mod 6, I ran full Oppressor did ok DPS. I really did it because I enjoyed the control aspects of the class (one of my main's in EQ1 was an Enchanter, this was a real control class ). When Mod 6 came out i found out really fast that a control only class usually made for really long fights or got you dead really fast, no in between. So I ended up switching to SS renegade build which was ok. Now I'm a MoF renegade buffer/debuffer which I do like playing but if control became a more viable tree you just might see me going to it. Who know's but as it stands right now I agree with @silverkelt that we as class are not controller/strikers anymore but something in between all the classes and our striker option doesn't necessarily stack up next to other strikers. Are we worse off then some classes in that we only have 1 tree that is really useful? This is not true we have options its just that some of those options make us mediocre at best. Do not take this as I want it all type of request (I know there are a lot of non-CW's out there claiming that's what we are looking for), i'm just saying that I would be more than willing to sacrifice DPS for control if, control worked and brought something to party, otherwise I will continue to play MoF renegade because it works for me right now.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Except that the RP spent on the Lostmauth set was exactly wasted...you did get something for all the extra damage you were doing while it was (and still is until it actually gets nerfed) BiS.
And even then, it actually might work out that Lostmauth is still BiS for CWs, the damage just isn't as crazy as it was.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
All artifact equipment during double session will only net you about 20% loss, unless you are lucky with a crit.
You lose that no matter when you do it.. or what set..
its not something Ive liked.. something I argued against many times in fact.
in terms of wasted.. its no more wasted then any other set..
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Except that the RP spent on the Lostmauth set was exactly wasted...you did get something for all the extra damage you were doing while it was (and still is until it actually gets nerfed) BiS.
And even then, it actually might work out that Lostmauth is still BiS for CWs, the damage just isn't as crazy as it was.
1500 damage vs 2% critical 2% ca, 2% damage , 7% recharge speed , 2% companion stat , 2% critical valindra offers ? i dont think so . the numbers above are 1060 recovery +2 int +2 charisma.
Fact is not that it is still viable, but that there'ss nothing better to get and the chances are that people already have the set. By the time you get something better, devs might come up with something new.
At this point it would be extremely wise to wait and see. Rushing into anything would be a terrible waste of AD.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
At this point it would be extremely wise to wait and see. Rushing into anything would be a terrible waste of AD.
I 100% agree. My plan is to just weather the storm so to speak. I'm at the point with my gear now that PvE content is fairly easy, trivial if I'm running with my guild mates.
We'll have to see where the balance discussion goes next.
At this point it would be extremely wise to wait and see. Rushing into anything would be a terrible waste of AD.
I 100% agree. My plan is to just weather the storm so to speak. I'm at the point with my gear now that PvE content is fairly easy, trivial if I'm running with my guild mates.
We'll have to see where the balance discussion goes next.
Same here - wait and see. No need to get all worked up yet. I know a lot of CWs have put time/energy/possibly real $ into their characters but we don't even know which of the changes will actually make it to Live.
Same for me, I will wait and see. The only thing I'm planning is testing if the Fixed Dread Enchantment will be better than my Vorpal enchantment after the change goes on live server.
“He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
Actually Lostmauth's counts for 26% of my damage, SS for 23%... Even if my 26% gets down to 13%, that generally doesnt affect my ranking in dps, since im most often on top, by quite a few millions.
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romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
@hoperuby it will go down even further. It will be much closer to the 3% mark if things go well.
Really, I think some of you guys CW are so overreacting about the elol set nerf... Here are some arguments I consider bulls**t: 1. ''elol nerf = 30% - 50% dps nerf'': * Like How did u guys even come up with them numbers? As now on live server, elol makes up 20% - 30% of my dps(even with BiS party-setup with 300%+ effectiveness: 1 MoF, 1 GF, 1 OP, 1 DC, me and 1 more dps). In case elol makes up 30%+ of ur dps, there are 2 cases: one is ur dps from other sources suck which means u need to fix ur build and stats. Two is that ur build is specialized for maximizing elol procs, which means u are f**ked yes, you lean on broken stuffs so u earn what you deserve, I have nothing to say. * Besides, when u crit elol procs and there is a 30% chance that ss will proc. SS doesnt proc through ELOL crited hits. So elol not criting doesnt affect ur ss proc either. * For now elol is 20% - 30% of my dps, and after the nerf it isnt completely gone! Man, it still makes up 5% of my dps. * And finally, elol nerf decreases everyone's dps, well not the same for all classes. But still everyone's dps gets decreased due to the nerf so that percentage of dps u lost becomes even smaller.
----> I am a math student and god lord, I dont even need to bring skyrocket science or complicated mathematics into this like what other ppl do... For the brain's sake just use some simple logic and do some act tests guys, man what the heck is the so-called ''elol nerf = 30% - 50% dps nerf''? totally bulls**t.
2. ''SWs and GWFs will get too much better than CW in Pve that no1 wants CWs in PVE'': * You know what? CW's dps is pretty good and balanced now. I am proud of that. Anything that is so much beyond good is considered overpowered, broken and unbalanced. Do not compare ur dps to SWs or GWFs and get ur confidence lost by that. Thier dps is just glitched and unbalanced... man, you just cannot compare a balanced class with unbalanced classes... Some classes get OP as some points just like our class did before, if you truly love this game you just gonna have to live with it. Things will get back to normal, they will get nerfed just like we did. Remember how many mods we were OP? 5 mods or something like that. * And as you develop your CW, get perfect vorpal or better + good crit stats + play right. I wouldnt call that dps ''good'' at all, I call it ''monster dps''. In fact, my CW is not BiS yet. Im 3.7 il. In term of same IL, I can 2x sometimes even 3x DPS bad and average GWFs, I can outdps or get outdpsed like slightly( some mils) by good GWFs. Only best GWFs of this entire server can 2x my DPS ( here are some of them: Godly, Slevin, Bonk and some more).
----> talking about DPS term (not even mentioning MoF/support term) there's no way we will become out-casters if u do everything right.
I think elol nerf is just the first round. They did it so we can test, give them feedback so they can buff the class. Our dps is already monster with good gears and skills, How better would it be once we get a major buff? think about it.
I took off my elol set and did some dungeons. It still worked out pretty well lol.
I am not bluffing and I am not any kind of keyboard-warriors at all. I can surely demonstrate everything I wrote up there in game. Just pm/email me @astralburn2. I am happy to take any challenge and dps competition.
Post edited by jasman23 on
This is Spartan bae.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Really, I think some of you guys CW are so overreacting about the elol set nerf... Here are some arguments I consider bulls**t: 1. ''elol nerf = 30% - 50% dps nerf'': * Like How did u guys even come up with them numbers? As now on live server, elol makes up 20% - 30% of my dps(even with BiS party-setup with 300%+ effectiveness: 1 MoF, 1 GF, 1 OP, 1 DC, me and 1 more dps). In case elol makes up 30%+ of ur dps, there are 2 cases: one is ur dps from other sources suck which means u need to fix ur build and stats. Two is that ur build is specialized for maximizing elol procs, which means u are f**ked yes, you lean on broken stuffs so u earn what you deserve, I have nothing to say. * Besides, when u crit elol procs and there is a 30% chance that ss will proc. SS doesnt proc through ELOL crited hits. So elol not criting doesnt affect ur ss proc either. * For now elol is 20% - 30% of my dps, and after the nerf it isnt completely gone! Man, it still makes up 5% of my dps. * And finally, elol nerf decrease everyone's dps, well not the same for all classes. But still everyone's dps gets decreased due to the nerf so that percentage of dps u lost becomes even smaller.
----> I am a math student and god lord, I dont even need to bring skyrocket science or complicated mathematics into this like what other ppl do. Just use some simple logic and do some act tests, man what the heck is the so-called ''elol nerf = 30% - 50% dps nerf''? totally bulls**t.
2. ''SWs and GWFs will get too much better then CW in Pve that no1 wants CWs in PVE'': * You know what? CW's dps is pretty good and balanced now. I am proud of that. Anything that is so much beyond good is considered overpowered, broken and unbalanced. Do not compare ur dps to SWs or GWFs thier dps is just glitched and unbalanced... man, you just cannot compare a balanced class with unbalanced classes... Some classes get OP as some points just like our class did before, if you truly love this game you just gonna have to live with it. Things will get back to normal, they will get nerfed just like we did. Remember how many mods we were OP? 5 mods or something like that. * And as you develop your CW, get perfect vorpal or better + good crit stats + play right. I wouldnt call that dps ''good'' at all, I call it ''monster dps''. In fact, my CW is not BiS yet. Im 3.7 il. In term of same IL, I can 2x sometimes even 3x DPS bad and average GWFs, I can outdps or get outdpsed like slightly( some mils) by good GWFs. Only best GWFs of this entire server can 2x my DPS ( here are some of them: Godly, Slevin, Bonk and some more).
----> talking about DPS term (not even mentioning MoF/support term) there's no way we will become out-casters if u do everything right.
I think elol nerf is just the first round. They did it so we can test, give them feedback so they can buff the class. Our dps is already monster with good gears and skills, How better would it be once we get a major buff? think about it.
I took off my elol set and did some dungeons. It still worked out pretty well lol.
I am not bluffing and I am not any kind of keyboard-warriors at all. I can surely demonstrate everything I wrote up there in game. Just pm/email me @astralburn2. I am happy to take any challenge and dps competition.
* You know what? CW's dps is pretty good and balanced now. I am proud of that. Anything that is so much beyond good is considered overpowered, broken and unbalanced.
I don't see any balance. - You spoke of Vorpal Enchantment (for godly dps), despite the fact that it does diddly squat for the best feature SS CW has - Spell Storm. - There is no such a thing as "Overpowered" used in the same connotation to "Broken and Unbalanced", specifically more so if you make it to work in the best possible way, mathematically speaking, and utilizing your gameplay to fit that concept. Especially after a lot of work put into a class and the gameplay. So, by your logic "To be broken is to do more damage than other classes". But did you know that one nicely specced TR can a) Outrun CWs b) Smoke-bomb, Knive-out anything by the time CW comes c) Have bigger single target damage by simply using at-will and adding bleed to the enemy? d) Their spells are instant-cast and they do not need to 1: Apply Chill stacks 2 : Apply several encounters before using a daily. 3 : Worry that Vorpal will somehow not work on their features and encounters.
Here's a thing - one Blue(rare) Elemental Fire Sword Artifact for a GWF already does more damage than the latest Legendary Twisted Skulls Artifact Weapon for a Control Wizard. That's two mods older weapon. That's ok, no? GWF's go right there in the first row to deal that damage? Right? CWs can shoot from behind, no? CWs should stay aside. But how about no? How about - Lol, CWs not gonna get the benefit of being a purely ranged class anymore, how about we nerf the CC abilities to the point of not making them usable...ever...and then let's make CWs to go right in the heat of the issue and having to spam the entire rotation in order to do "damage".
First of all, you can't play a CW with defense and HP alone, you need to kill things in order to survive. Everything will kill you without any consent. So, you're forced to go in the front rows, you DO NOT get the benefit of the stronger Artifact Weapon Damage, your ranged attacks are not as powerful to take down anything and you completely are dependent on the encounters and their refreshment. This becomes very clear in the runs such as Demogorgon. Even with full stacks of Madness, GWFs will still make super-damage, whilst CW's can only hope to hit high 100k every next year.
So we live these days by speccing into SINGLE TARGET damage options, but who cares about the AoE, no? We're just gonna use DCs to Sunburst the **** out of everything and type "lol, fail cw where's the control???".
So, no, how about - you're wrong and how about - you didn't really think this through before posting it, but you sure stated how CW's "Balanced".
Why the hell would you say that? That's like ...ruining everything you wrote. Just like that. Zap.
Edit : Correctly showing the name now. Can't imagine why it would mention thefabricant earlier o0
Post edited by c1k4ml3kc3 on
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
* You know what? CW's dps is pretty good and balanced now. I am proud of that. Anything that is so much beyond good is considered overpowered, broken and unbalanced.
I don't see any balance. - You spoke of Vorpal Enchantment (for godly dps), despite the fact that it does diddly squat for the best feature SS CW has - Spell Storm. - There is no such a thing as "Overpowered" used in the same connotation to "Broken and Unbalanced", specifically more so if you make it to work in the best possible way, mathematically speaking, and utilizing your gameplay to fit that concept. Especially after a lot of work put into a class and the gameplay. So, by your logic "To be broken is to do more damage than other classes". But did you know that one nicely specced TR can a) Outrun CWs b) Smoke-bomb, Knive-out anything by the time CW comes c) Have bigger single target damage by simply using at-will and adding bleed to the enemy? d) Their spells are instant-cast and they do not need to 1: Apply Chill stacks 2 : Apply several encounters before using a daily. 3 : Worry that Vorpal will somehow not work on their features and encounters.
Here's a thing - one Blue(rare) Elemental Fire Sword Artifact for a GWF already does more damage than the latest Legendary Twisted Skulls Artifact Weapon for a Control Wizard. That's two mods older weapon. That's ok, no? GWF's go right there in the first row to deal that damage? Right? CWs can shoot from behind, no? CWs should stay aside. But how about no? How about - Lol, CWs not gonna get the benefit of being a purely ranged class anymore, how about we nerf the CC abilities to the point of not making them usable...ever...and then let's make CWs to go right in the heat of the issue and having to spam the entire rotation in order to do "damage".
First of all, you can't play a CW with defense and HP alone, you need to kill things in order to survive. Everything will kill you without any consent. So, you're forced to go in the front rows, you DO NOT get the benefit of the stronger Artifact Weapon Damage, your ranged attacks are not as powerful to take down anything and you completely are dependent on the encounters and their refreshment. This becomes very clear in the runs such as Demogorgon. Even with full stacks of Madness, GWFs will still make super-damage, whilst CW's can only hope to hit high 100k every next year.
So we live these days by speccing into SINGLE TARGET damage options, but who cares about the AoE, no? We're just gonna use DCs to Sunburst the **** out of everything and type "lol, fail cw where's the control???".
So, no, how about - you're wrong and how about - you didn't really think this through before posting it, but you sure stated how CW's "Balanced".
Why the hell would you say that? That's like ...ruining everything you wrote. Just like that. Zap.
umm.... @c1k4ml3kc3 I never said that, you quoted someone else, not me.
* You know what? CW's dps is pretty good and balanced now. I am proud of that. Anything that is so much beyond good is considered overpowered, broken and unbalanced.
Why the hell would you say that? That's like ...ruining everything you wrote. Just like that. Zap.
Ok big boy @c1k4ml3kc3. That load of text u wrote was supposed to bring down my point about ''balanced'' I assume. U even quoted my sentences which is a good thing. Why? because that is just where your misunderstanding places. U see, I wrote ''CW's dps balance'' - the aspect of our DPS. The balance you were talking about was the overall balance of the class includes: DPS, ability to survive, buff/ debuff, control etc. I have nothing against your concern about that.
Cuase every1 was so mad about the dps-nerf, the balance I was talking up there, is the JUST dps aspect. I wanted to show ppl that our dps was not that bad and that dependent on elol set at all, man u got my point? and here is why I said our DPS was balanced: * On act test, our dps has some resonable big hits and pretty all dps comes from many sources, every single source matters. There is no dominated dps source on the graph which means pretty much balanced to me. * If you only look at the dps graph of a glitched SW, 50% sometimes even 75% of there dps come from the puppet-bug. A large amount of dps coming from only a dominated source. -----> totally unbalanced/broken DPS (kinda reminds old time when 50% of our dps came from a single passive: SS). (1) * about the GWFs, you yourself just explained about how their dps was broken. There's no way thier no-cd at-wills and that IBS should do that much dps. Besides, their daggers skill is one of the most broken things in this game right now, it gives 40% more melee dps and no cd and STILL does some solid dps. -----> broken/ unbalanced (2)
- There is no such a thing as "Overpowered" used in the same connotation to "Broken and Unbalanced", specifically more so if you make it to work in the best possible way, mathematically speaking, and utilizing your gameplay to fit that concept. Especially after a lot of work put into a class and the gameplay. So, by your logic "To be broken is to do more damage than other classes".
* Traditionally speaking, in every MMO Wizard is always one of the best classes for DPS. I can really accept the fact that devs let GWFs and SWs deal more dps than my class since them GWFs and SWs can do pretty much nothing but dpsing. But being so overpowered and dealing that way more dps than my class (double, triple sometimes) considering same skill-level/ IL is a no-logic. Should the entire MMO world now have a new role for classes (EUHdps - eternal ultra high dps) beside dps tank and support? ---->overpowered = broken class&role system.(3) * Besides, overpowered hits like the 40mils IBS (source: Godly) or the legendary 200mils puppet (source: Sharpe) are what makes dungeons easier ----> difficulty increasing ----> stats inflation -----> overpowered = broken/ creepy stats system.(4)
(3),(4)----> overpowered = broken systems (B)
(A),(B) ----> overpowered = broken systems and broken mechanics
* On act test, our dps has some resonable big hits and pretty all dps comes from many sources, every single source matters. There is no dominated dps source on the graph which means pretty much balanced to me. * If you only look at the dps graph of a glitched SW, 50% sometimes even 75% of there dps come from the puppet-bug. A large amount of dps coming from only a dominated source.
"Every single source matters" - No it doesn't and it's wrong to assume that someone will use Orb of Imposition next to other Damage options. It is illogical to take anything else but the best possible option at hand. Even though I do not advocate same builds everywhere, I understand the purpose for the maximization. So, what's ideal for you? Each feature and Encounter doing exactly the proportional damage in ACT? There's no logic in that.
-----> totally unbalanced/broken DPS (kinda reminds old time when 50% of our dps came from a single passive: SS). (1) * about the GWFs, you yourself just explained about how their dps was broken. There's no way thier no-cd at-wills and that IBS should do that much dps. Besides, their daggers skill is one of the most broken things in this game right now, it gives 40% more melee dps and no cd and STILL does some solid dps. -----> broken/ unbalanced (2)
But you're missing the point. Having DPS coming from a single feature or skill is the epitome of the build. You work to get there. 50% of all damage is out of the question, but the 20-25% I don't see a biggy.
So, no, that conclusion of yours doesn't seem about right.
You'll have no problem if I stick with it some more until you realize to what extent the CW's gameplay is needed in order to "get" to the point of where other classes have no real issue, whatsoever. That doesn't mean that we're "balanced" to any extent, because we still lack a lot of controlling options that would inevitably improve our gameplay. Recently I've been seeing a lot of Singularities in the Well of Dragon encounters. I always laugh to that. I know what you mean and what you want to say, but you do not have all the information at your disposal and as such you are biased on the topic of CWs dps. If you prefer to go into 10+ mobs to cast Icy Terrain, be my guest.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
* On act test, our dps has some resonable big hits and pretty all dps comes from many sources, every single source matters. There is no dominated dps source on the graph which means pretty much balanced to me. * If you only look at the dps graph of a glitched SW, 50% sometimes even 75% of there dps come from the puppet-bug. A large amount of dps coming from only a dominated source.
"Every single source matters" - No it doesn't and it's wrong to assume that someone will use Orb of Imposition next to other Damage options. It is illogical to take anything else but the best possible option at hand. Even though I do not advocate same builds everywhere, I understand the purpose for the maximization. So, what's ideal for you? Each feature and Encounter doing exactly the proportional damage in ACT? There's no logic in that.
-----> totally unbalanced/broken DPS (kinda reminds old time when 50% of our dps came from a single passive: SS). (1) * about the GWFs, you yourself just explained about how their dps was broken. There's no way thier no-cd at-wills and that IBS should do that much dps. Besides, their daggers skill is one of the most broken things in this game right now, it gives 40% more melee dps and no cd and STILL does some solid dps. -----> broken/ unbalanced (2)
But you're missing the point. Having DPS coming from a single feature or skill is the epitome of the build. You work to get there. 50% of all damage is out of the question, but the 20-25% I don't see a biggy.
So, no, that conclusion of yours doesn't seem about right.
You'll have no problem if I stick with it some more until you realize to what extent the CW's gameplay is needed in order to "get" to the point of where other classes have no real issue, whatsoever. That doesn't mean that we're "balanced" to any extent, because we still lack a lot of controlling options that would inevitably improve our gameplay. Recently I've been seeing a lot of Singularities in the Well of Dragon encounters. I always laugh to that. I know what you mean and what you want to say, but you do not have all the information at your disposal and as such you are biased on the topic of CWs dps. If you prefer to go into 10+ mobs to cast Icy Terrain, be my guest.
No offense man, I dont find any reason arguing with them arguments...
Comments
Other ideas are fine. Control should be viable. Control is fun.
Caturday Survivor
Elemental Evil Survivor
Undermontain Survivor
Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
Mod22 Refinement rework Survivor
Also, I'm old-school. I've done my time on all 3 Paragon paths. The CW has a very clear-cut set of options. Oppressor is the CC path, Thaumaturge is the DPS path, and Renegade is the support path. If a CW chooses to be a Thaumaturge, shouldn't they have the right to be equally competitive when it comes to DPS? Otherwise, what's the point of even having it as an option? Most classes get their DPS as they want it. Even WITH Icy Veins, it's impossible for a Thaumaturge to take Paingiver now.
This may be a little extreme, but what if they merged Arcane Presence and Chilling Presence? Or maybe put do something like they did with Chilling Advantage for Arcane Presence for the Thaumaturge tree? Having it slotted gives you a 20% damage buff. Or something like Icy Veins? Using an encounter gives you 5 stacks of Arcane Mastery? As extreme as those sound, it'll take something that extreme to balance us out now. Or a bunch of small things to equate to something like that.
If you think CWs are happy being a buffer companion for GWFs/SWs think again!
Astral shield nerfs? Haven't been use that for ages.
Linked Spirit? It has superior buffs than that old thing!
Your talking a matter of reasonable degrees, owlbear is a super rare out of a defunct (IE not as opened box) if you didnt buy one.. you are now forced to pay 3.5 million for one.
We are talking base semantics , vs unique builds.
A regular played CW newbish player.. should be able to slot a goat companion (at 100k) some avenger/or other crit gear (a few hundred k) some r8s slotted in every slot.. and be ok..
at this juncture they are not.
you cannot possible defend a build (with 3 owlbears on the market as I type this) costing almost 1000X as much to be viable (base here would be owlbear + at least all r10s in every slot)
that is beyond ludicrous.
The base semantics of the CW are just clearly too inferior at the moment and was simply not showing due to the crutch of the elol set.
WE all knew this day would come.. what happens now is up to the devs, we can just give our feedback.
BTW LIA is 100% right about the ACTUAL game mechanics. I think Sharp would even agree with that part of it.. the game has been so easy for the last few mods .. that even players like me.. average joes, can pretty much rolf stomp everything and get it done.
However, I think many of us who play the CW class, DO NOT AT all want to be pigeonholed as a DEBUFFER only. So I would disagree with her there.
THERE is nothing wrong with being support.. I play that class already.. its called righteous DC. I quite enjoy it.. but dont want to just be another debuffer on my cw.
I actually enjoyed the game when the CW was more of a support class, who's job was to corral and CC mobs, and do what they could to debuff. That was the original meta. Then, when the game because easier because of gear-inflation, more damage became the meta...basically Module 3-5. When Module 6 launched, the game was indeed harder again, but the CC resistance of mobs in dungeons became so ridiculous, there was no room for CC. And so the more damage meta stuck around.
So now what's the future look like? I would honestly love to see a future for the Control Wizard where the "Control" aspect was special a special part of the class. Whether people choose to go all the way on CC or all the way to damage, or a mix should be up to the player.
Again, in an idea world and in my humble opinion:
Oppressor - CC/Debuff (to be effective against CC immune targets like bosses)
Thaumaturge - DPS
Renegade - Buffs
And even then, it actually might work out that Lostmauth is still BiS for CWs, the damage just isn't as crazy as it was.
You lose that no matter when you do it.. or what set..
its not something Ive liked.. something I argued against many times in fact.
in terms of wasted.. its no more wasted then any other set..
Fact is not that it is still viable, but that there'ss nothing better to get and the chances are that people already have the set. By the time you get something better, devs might come up with something new.
At this point it would be extremely wise to wait and see. Rushing into anything would be a terrible waste of AD.
We'll have to see where the balance discussion goes next.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
1. ''elol nerf = 30% - 50% dps nerf'':
* Like How did u guys even come up with them numbers? As now on live server, elol makes up 20% - 30% of my dps(even with BiS party-setup with 300%+ effectiveness: 1 MoF, 1 GF, 1 OP, 1 DC, me and 1 more dps). In case elol makes up 30%+ of ur dps, there are 2 cases: one is ur dps from other sources suck which means u need to fix ur build and stats. Two is that ur build is specialized for maximizing elol procs, which means u are f**ked yes, you lean on broken stuffs so u earn what you deserve, I have nothing to say.
* Besides, when u crit elol procs and there is a 30% chance that ss will proc. SS doesnt proc through ELOL crited hits. So elol not criting doesnt affect ur ss proc either.
* For now elol is 20% - 30% of my dps, and after the nerf it isnt completely gone! Man, it still makes up 5% of my dps.
* And finally, elol nerf decreases everyone's dps, well not the same for all classes. But still everyone's dps gets decreased due to the nerf so that percentage of dps u lost becomes even smaller.
----> I am a math student and god lord, I dont even need to bring skyrocket science or complicated mathematics into this like what other ppl do... For the brain's sake just use some simple logic and do some act tests guys, man what the heck is the so-called ''elol nerf = 30% - 50% dps nerf''? totally bulls**t.
2. ''SWs and GWFs will get too much better than CW in Pve that no1 wants CWs in PVE'':
* You know what? CW's dps is pretty good and balanced now. I am proud of that. Anything that is so much beyond good is considered overpowered, broken and unbalanced. Do not compare ur dps to SWs or GWFs and get ur confidence lost by that. Thier dps is just glitched and unbalanced... man, you just cannot compare a balanced class with unbalanced classes... Some classes get OP as some points just like our class did before, if you truly love this game you just gonna have to live with it. Things will get back to normal, they will get nerfed just like we did. Remember how many mods we were OP? 5 mods or something like that.
* And as you develop your CW, get perfect vorpal or better + good crit stats + play right. I wouldnt call that dps ''good'' at all, I call it ''monster dps''. In fact, my CW is not BiS yet. Im 3.7 il. In term of same IL, I can 2x sometimes even 3x DPS bad and average GWFs, I can outdps or get outdpsed like slightly( some mils) by good GWFs. Only best GWFs of this entire server can 2x my DPS ( here are some of them: Godly, Slevin, Bonk and some more).
----> talking about DPS term (not even mentioning MoF/support term) there's no way we will become out-casters if u do everything right.
I think elol nerf is just the first round. They did it so we can test, give them feedback so they can buff the class. Our dps is already monster with good gears and skills, How better would it be once we get a major buff? think about it.
I took off my elol set and did some dungeons. It still worked out pretty well lol.
I am not bluffing and I am not any kind of keyboard-warriors at all. I can surely demonstrate everything I wrote up there in game. Just pm/email me @astralburn2. I am happy to take any challenge and dps competition.
This is Spartan bae.
that would be a even better example of how good we are now
This is Spartan bae.
This is Spartan bae.
- You spoke of Vorpal Enchantment (for godly dps), despite the fact that it does diddly squat for the best feature SS CW has - Spell Storm.
- There is no such a thing as "Overpowered" used in the same connotation to "Broken and Unbalanced", specifically more so if you make it to work in the best possible way, mathematically speaking, and utilizing your gameplay to fit that concept. Especially after a lot of work put into a class and the gameplay. So, by your logic "To be broken is to do more damage than other classes". But did you know that one nicely specced TR can
a) Outrun CWs
b) Smoke-bomb, Knive-out anything by the time CW comes
c) Have bigger single target damage by simply using at-will and adding bleed to the enemy?
d) Their spells are instant-cast and they do not need to
1: Apply Chill stacks
2 : Apply several encounters before using a daily.
3 : Worry that Vorpal will somehow not work on their features and encounters.
Here's a thing - one Blue(rare) Elemental Fire Sword Artifact for a GWF already does more damage than the latest Legendary Twisted Skulls Artifact Weapon for a Control Wizard. That's two mods older weapon.
That's ok, no? GWF's go right there in the first row to deal that damage? Right? CWs can shoot from behind, no?
CWs should stay aside. But how about no? How about - Lol, CWs not gonna get the benefit of being a purely ranged class anymore, how about we nerf the CC abilities to the point of not making them usable...ever...and then let's make CWs to go right in the heat of the issue and having to spam the entire rotation in order to do "damage".
First of all, you can't play a CW with defense and HP alone, you need to kill things in order to survive. Everything will kill you without any consent. So, you're forced to go in the front rows, you DO NOT get the benefit of the stronger Artifact Weapon Damage, your ranged attacks are not as powerful to take down anything and you completely are dependent on the encounters and their refreshment. This becomes very clear in the runs such as Demogorgon. Even with full stacks of Madness, GWFs will still make super-damage, whilst CW's can only hope to hit high 100k every next year.
So we live these days by speccing into SINGLE TARGET damage options, but who cares about the AoE, no? We're just gonna use DCs to Sunburst the **** out of everything and type "lol, fail cw where's the control???".
So, no, how about - you're wrong and how about - you didn't really think this through before posting it, but you sure stated how CW's "Balanced".
Why the hell would you say that? That's like ...ruining everything you wrote. Just like that. Zap.
Edit : Correctly showing the name now. Can't imagine why it would mention thefabricant earlier o0
That load of text u wrote was supposed to bring down my point about ''balanced'' I assume. U even quoted my sentences which is a good thing. Why? because that is just where your misunderstanding places. U see, I wrote ''CW's dps balance'' - the aspect of our DPS. The balance you were talking about was the overall balance of the class includes: DPS, ability to survive, buff/ debuff, control etc. I have nothing against your concern about that.
Cuase every1 was so mad about the dps-nerf, the balance I was talking up there, is the JUST dps aspect. I wanted to show ppl that our dps was not that bad and that dependent on elol set at all, man u got my point? and here is why I said our DPS was balanced:
* On act test, our dps has some resonable big hits and pretty all dps comes from many sources, every single source matters. There is no dominated dps source on the graph which means pretty much balanced to me.
* If you only look at the dps graph of a glitched SW, 50% sometimes even 75% of there dps come from the puppet-bug. A large amount of dps coming from only a dominated source.
-----> totally unbalanced/broken DPS (kinda reminds old time when 50% of our dps came from a single passive: SS). (1)
* about the GWFs, you yourself just explained about how their dps was broken. There's no way thier no-cd at-wills and that IBS should do that much dps. Besides, their daggers skill is one of the most broken things in this game right now, it gives 40% more melee dps and no cd and STILL does some solid dps.
-----> broken/ unbalanced (2)
(1), (2) ----> overpowered = broken/ unbalanced mechanics (A) * Traditionally speaking, in every MMO Wizard is always one of the best classes for DPS. I can really accept the fact that devs let GWFs and SWs deal more dps than my class since them GWFs and SWs can do pretty much nothing but dpsing. But being so overpowered and dealing that way more dps than my class (double, triple sometimes) considering same skill-level/ IL is a no-logic. Should the entire MMO world now have a new role for classes (EUHdps - eternal ultra high dps) beside dps tank and support? ---->overpowered = broken class&role system.(3)
* Besides, overpowered hits like the 40mils IBS (source: Godly) or the legendary 200mils puppet (source: Sharpe) are what makes dungeons easier ----> difficulty increasing ----> stats inflation -----> overpowered = broken/ creepy stats system.(4)
(3),(4)----> overpowered = broken systems (B)
(A),(B) ----> overpowered = broken systems and broken mechanics So, no, that conclusion of yours doesn't seem about right.
This is Spartan bae.
This is Spartan bae.
So, what's ideal for you? Each feature and Encounter doing exactly the proportional damage in ACT? There's no logic in that. You mean, something similar to the effect of http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Critical_Conflagration? Or this http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/Duelist's_Flurry ?
But you're missing the point. Having DPS coming from a single feature or skill is the epitome of the build. You work to get there.
50% of all damage is out of the question, but the 20-25% I don't see a biggy. You'll have no problem if I stick with it some more until you realize to what extent the CW's gameplay is needed in order to "get" to the point of where other classes have no real issue, whatsoever. That doesn't mean that we're "balanced" to any extent, because we still lack a lot of controlling options that would inevitably improve our gameplay.
Recently I've been seeing a lot of Singularities in the Well of Dragon encounters. I always laugh to that.
I know what you mean and what you want to say, but you do not have all the information at your disposal and as such you are biased on the topic of CWs dps. If you prefer to go into 10+ mobs to cast Icy Terrain, be my guest.
This is Spartan bae.
Edit : Tried going with regular lvl 60 Black Ice set. The damage was ok.
Placed back on the rare LM set. The damage increase is substantial.
So, imho, LM set nerf didn't fix anything and CWs should try equipping Dread Ench.