Alright, I think it's fair to say that most of you guys know that I've been around for a while. I didn't start at beta, but I started around mod 2 launch, and I've been maining CW ever since. I even got around to writing a decent guide this module (note: DONT FOLLOW IT UNTIL I FIGURE OUT WTF TO DO WITH THIS NERF).
I haven't run numbers yet on preview. I'm patching it while I type this. I will definetely be posting what I find my reduction in damage to be.
Is it the death of CW? No. Nothing is the "death" of CW. I've been playing my CW since module 2. I love it. I've tried other classes, and none have captured me like CW has. I'm a CW, it's the simple, it's just what I say.
Now, don't kill me for saying this, because it comes in two parts: I think the lostmauth set did indeed need a nerf. It was overpowered. HOWEVER, we needed a buff to compensate, not a nerf to broaden the gap between CW and other classes. I know for a fact without testing that this is at the bare minimum a 20% nerf to my damage, as the lol procs contribute on average 19%-22% of my damage on its own. I have yet to test how it will effect secondary proc rates, and am going to be doing that now.
I do agree that CW has been relentlessly nerfed, and the original few nerfs were needed, but they were poorly implemented. I remember when CW required SKILL, we had to aim our attacks, time our rotations and dodges. It was not the button mashing, keyboard mashing class that it is today. It was elegant, and required chaining, and other unique things.
We've suffered a lot of nerfs, we're all forced to use storm spell and CP to deal any damage. What I'd like to see is a large buff to encounter damage, at-will damage, and the feats in the thaumaturge tree. If they were all buffed by 2x, maybe, just maybe, I'd argue that the nerf was justified. Our damage would still be somewhat reduced, not the same as it was for sure, but we'd still be able to competitively deal damage. Now, I fear the only way we will deal lots of damage is if we stack movement speed and run ahead of our groups.
Remember, this is all speculation, I'm heading over to preview now to do some actual number crunching.
lol to idea of making their base dps 2x better they should just replace thaum capstone with something similar to destroyer capstone but even this might break game and make lf4x cw reality again at least now ppl just lf dps
Except not no one will be considering CWs DPS. I get what all of you are saying, but when you make comments like "everyone was impacted by the eLoL set equally", you have no idea what you're talking about. SWs lost less than 5% DPS, if they were even running it. HR was unaffected. GWF and TR lost about 1/4-1/3 of their DPS. CW lost almost 1/2 of their damage. How can you justify CWs not getting buffed? lmao
Are you ok with a BiS GWF doing 30% less DPS than a SW 1k+ IL lower than him? Because that's the reality you're going to face. At that same token, CWs will be doing ~30% less damage than a GWF/TR. How do you justify any of that?
And to the guy that said CWs needed nerfs, go fund yourself. You have no idea what we've endured. We're had more class changing nerfs than anyone. They took our control, our target limits and our DPS twice. The ONLY buff CWs have gotten were to the (still broken) Chaos Magic last year.
And to what @thefabricant was saying, we've been reduced to being buff HAMSTER. A MoF Renegade offers weaker buffs than GF and DC and won't even do half the DPS of any other classes.
Just by you making that comment means you know nothing about CWs. We already have to work extra hard just to be compeitive WITH the eLoL set, and now even the best CW would struggle to out-DPS the worst DPS classes in some cases. I prematurely switched to my arcane build now that the nerf's going life, and I can honestly say that I have to work more than twice as hard just to be competitive with a TR/GWF who still get max result for little effort.
And if you have any doubts that this almost destroys the SS Paragon, just ask @ironzerg79. I'm curious as to what he has to say about the matter.
@ironzerg79 doesn't care about dps like some of us do which yeah, sure, does make him a better person than me but it doesn't change the fact that his dps with such a change is now RUBBISH. So yeah, he is a better person than me and all that, but being a better person doesn't change the fact that a CW is strictly the 2nd worst dps class post such a change. I won't declare the class dead, because there are still ways to play it (a pure support class) but I will definitely declare that for the purposes of perfect premade teams, the CW has no roll other than support.
He may act like someone who doesn't care about DPS, but let's weigh the facts. He wrote a guide called "DPS is the best CC", designed around SS+eLoL set.
Then not long after SS got nerfed, he switched to a GWF if memory serves correct?
Me thinks he 'does' care about DPS, he's just ashamed to admit it.
If a CW doesn't care about DPS (before this nerf), then they're a burden to their team. Even if they go MoF Ren, they're still a burden to their team, since a GF/DC offer much more reliable buffs/debuffs.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Alright, I think it's fair to say that most of you guys know that I've been around for a while. I didn't start at beta, but I started around mod 2 launch, and I've been maining CW ever since. I even got around to writing a decent guide this module (note: DONT FOLLOW IT UNTIL I FIGURE OUT WTF TO DO WITH THIS NERF).
I haven't run numbers yet on preview. I'm patching it while I type this. I will definetely be posting what I find my reduction in damage to be.
Is it the death of CW? No. Nothing is the "death" of CW. I've been playing my CW since module 2. I love it. I've tried other classes, and none have captured me like CW has. I'm a CW, it's the simple, it's just what I say.
Now, don't kill me for saying this, because it comes in two parts: I think the lostmauth set did indeed need a nerf. It was overpowered. HOWEVER, we needed a buff to compensate, not a nerf to broaden the gap between CW and other classes. I know for a fact without testing that this is at the bare minimum a 20% nerf to my damage, as the lol procs contribute on average 19%-22% of my damage on its own. I have yet to test how it will effect secondary proc rates, and am going to be doing that now.
I do agree that CW has been relentlessly nerfed, and the original few nerfs were needed, but they were poorly implemented. I remember when CW required SKILL, we had to aim our attacks, time our rotations and dodges. It was not the button mashing, keyboard mashing class that it is today. It was elegant, and required chaining, and other unique things.
We've suffered a lot of nerfs, we're all forced to use storm spell and CP to deal any damage. What I'd like to see is a large buff to encounter damage, at-will damage, and the feats in the thaumaturge tree. If they were all buffed by 2x, maybe, just maybe, I'd argue that the nerf was justified. Our damage would still be somewhat reduced, not the same as it was for sure, but we'd still be able to competitively deal damage. Now, I fear the only way we will deal lots of damage is if we stack movement speed and run ahead of our groups.
Remember, this is all speculation, I'm heading over to preview now to do some actual number crunching.
lol to idea of making their base dps 2x better they should just replace thaum capstone with something similar to destroyer capstone but even this might break game and make lf4x cw reality again at least now ppl just lf dps
Except not no one will be considering CWs DPS. I get what all of you are saying, but when you make comments like "everyone was impacted by the eLoL set equally", you have no idea what you're talking about. SWs lost less than 5% DPS, if they were even running it. HR was unaffected. GWF and TR lost about 1/4-1/3 of their DPS. CW lost almost 1/2 of their damage. How can you justify CWs not getting buffed? lmao
Are you ok with a BiS GWF doing 30% less DPS than a SW 1k+ IL lower than him? Because that's the reality you're going to face. At that same token, CWs will be doing ~30% less damage than a GWF/TR. How do you justify any of that?
And to the guy that said CWs needed nerfs, go fund yourself. You have no idea what we've endured. We're had more class changing nerfs than anyone. They took our control, our target limits and our DPS twice. The ONLY buff CWs have gotten were to the (still broken) Chaos Magic last year.
And to what @thefabricant was saying, we've been reduced to being buff HAMSTER. A MoF Renegade offers weaker buffs than GF and DC and won't even do half the DPS of any other classes.
Just by you making that comment means you know nothing about CWs. We already have to work extra hard just to be compeitive WITH the eLoL set, and now even the best CW would struggle to out-DPS the worst DPS classes in some cases. I prematurely switched to my arcane build now that the nerf's going life, and I can honestly say that I have to work more than twice as hard just to be competitive with a TR/GWF who still get max result for little effort.
And if you have any doubts that this almost destroys the SS Paragon, just ask @ironzerg79. I'm curious as to what he has to say about the matter.
@ironzerg79 doesn't care about dps like some of us do which yeah, sure, does make him a better person than me but it doesn't change the fact that his dps with such a change is now RUBBISH. So yeah, he is a better person than me and all that, but being a better person doesn't change the fact that a CW is strictly the 2nd worst dps class post such a change. I won't declare the class dead, because there are still ways to play it (a pure support class) but I will definitely declare that for the purposes of perfect premade teams, the CW has no roll other than support.
He may act like someone who doesn't care about DPS, but let's weigh the facts. He wrote a guide called "DPS is the best CC", designed around SS+eLoL set.
Then not long after SS got nerfed, he switched to a GWF if memory serves correct?
Me thinks he 'does' care about DPS, he's just ashamed to admit it.
If a CW doesn't care about DPS (before this nerf), then they're a burden to their team. Even if they go MoF Ren, they're still a burden to their team, since a GF/DC offer much more reliable buffs/debuffs.
MoF Ren is in no way a burden to a team, lets look at it this way:
Say you have a GF and a DC already as well as 2 equally good dps (assuming they are perfect dps). You could either choose between running a 3rd perfect dps (which would boost the parties damage by 50%) or you could choose a MoF ren CW. A MoF ren CW can boost party effectiveness by 140% (I am not making up this figure, I have parses of MoF ren CW's you can look at if you like). Would you rather party dps was increased by 50% by taking the 3rd dps, or 140% by taking the MoF ren CW?
Alright, I think it's fair to say that most of you guys know that I've been around for a while. I didn't start at beta, but I started around mod 2 launch, and I've been maining CW ever since. I even got around to writing a decent guide this module (note: DONT FOLLOW IT UNTIL I FIGURE OUT WTF TO DO WITH THIS NERF).
I haven't run numbers yet on preview. I'm patching it while I type this. I will definetely be posting what I find my reduction in damage to be.
Is it the death of CW? No. Nothing is the "death" of CW. I've been playing my CW since module 2. I love it. I've tried other classes, and none have captured me like CW has. I'm a CW, it's the simple, it's just what I say.
Now, don't kill me for saying this, because it comes in two parts: I think the lostmauth set did indeed need a nerf. It was overpowered. HOWEVER, we needed a buff to compensate, not a nerf to broaden the gap between CW and other classes. I know for a fact without testing that this is at the bare minimum a 20% nerf to my damage, as the lol procs contribute on average 19%-22% of my damage on its own. I have yet to test how it will effect secondary proc rates, and am going to be doing that now.
I do agree that CW has been relentlessly nerfed, and the original few nerfs were needed, but they were poorly implemented. I remember when CW required SKILL, we had to aim our attacks, time our rotations and dodges. It was not the button mashing, keyboard mashing class that it is today. It was elegant, and required chaining, and other unique things.
We've suffered a lot of nerfs, we're all forced to use storm spell and CP to deal any damage. What I'd like to see is a large buff to encounter damage, at-will damage, and the feats in the thaumaturge tree. If they were all buffed by 2x, maybe, just maybe, I'd argue that the nerf was justified. Our damage would still be somewhat reduced, not the same as it was for sure, but we'd still be able to competitively deal damage. Now, I fear the only way we will deal lots of damage is if we stack movement speed and run ahead of our groups.
Remember, this is all speculation, I'm heading over to preview now to do some actual number crunching.
lol to idea of making their base dps 2x better they should just replace thaum capstone with something similar to destroyer capstone but even this might break game and make lf4x cw reality again at least now ppl just lf dps
Except not no one will be considering CWs DPS. I get what all of you are saying, but when you make comments like "everyone was impacted by the eLoL set equally", you have no idea what you're talking about. SWs lost less than 5% DPS, if they were even running it. HR was unaffected. GWF and TR lost about 1/4-1/3 of their DPS. CW lost almost 1/2 of their damage. How can you justify CWs not getting buffed? lmao
Are you ok with a BiS GWF doing 30% less DPS than a SW 1k+ IL lower than him? Because that's the reality you're going to face. At that same token, CWs will be doing ~30% less damage than a GWF/TR. How do you justify any of that?
And to the guy that said CWs needed nerfs, go fund yourself. You have no idea what we've endured. We're had more class changing nerfs than anyone. They took our control, our target limits and our DPS twice. The ONLY buff CWs have gotten were to the (still broken) Chaos Magic last year.
And to what @thefabricant was saying, we've been reduced to being buff HAMSTER. A MoF Renegade offers weaker buffs than GF and DC and won't even do half the DPS of any other classes.
Just by you making that comment means you know nothing about CWs. We already have to work extra hard just to be compeitive WITH the eLoL set, and now even the best CW would struggle to out-DPS the worst DPS classes in some cases. I prematurely switched to my arcane build now that the nerf's going life, and I can honestly say that I have to work more than twice as hard just to be competitive with a TR/GWF who still get max result for little effort.
And if you have any doubts that this almost destroys the SS Paragon, just ask @ironzerg79. I'm curious as to what he has to say about the matter.
sry but there is no room in game for cw to be top dps because when this happen all u see is lf 4xcw do u want game to be destroyed for anyone who do not roll cw like it was before and to be hones mof should have been superior to ss after all it is a fire path so now we might see more of mof cws
My SS CW ran with the valindra set for a long time until i switched to the lostmeal set recently. Running around doing dailies, before everything died on the second round of freezing. After, everything died on the first round of freezing. I will miss the fun of doing that.
But "Death of CW" seems overblown. The set getting nerfed takes every class using it down a notch, not just CW
Some CWs said they had a better dps with a recovery/baby owlbear build, I guess it would be worth a try
They could get close to another unbuffed CW, but the 0-crit AoC+lightning+Owlbear builds dont scale with crit/buffs as much as any other CW builds would. For soloing, it's a completely acceptable build, for group play, they fall behind greatly. The potential cap of the build can be reached rather quickly, especially since proccing Abyss of Chaos is mainly bound to the tick rate and duration of Icy Terrain + Conduit of Ice. The build is just very limited.
Some CWs said they had a better dps with a recovery/baby owlbear build, I guess it would be worth a try
They could get close to another unbuffed CW, but the 0-crit AoC+lightning+Owlbear builds dont scale with crit/buffs as much as any other CW builds would. For soloing, it's a completely acceptable build, for group play, they fall behind greatly. The potential cap of the build can be reached rather quickly, especially since proccing Abyss of Chaos is mainly bound to the tick rate and duration of Icy Terrain + Conduit of Ice. The build is just very limited.
Read through our notes about the OBC+Lightning+Abyss. Until they fix the Dread Enchant, this is one of the more viable builds for CWs now. But also, as I said, it's a colossal pain in the HAMSTER to keep your damage % stacks up.
I'm at work, so I can't provide the exact numbers. But well managed arcane mastery stacks and ST on Tab (Imprisonment for bosses, if you're using Icy Terrain to build chill stacks) were competitive with base SS damage. The only bad side to the build is, we have to swap Powers constantly and have to be much more mindful of our stack building. It also means a LOT of ST cancelling, which can be very hard to master and gets very boring after a while. Not to mention it requires a complete gear change and probably a respec and reroll.
That said, it still means we have to work 2-3x harder to maximize our DPS over other classes, and we'll still be a bit behind everyone else, unless you can consistently run at 110% all the time. I've had mixed results with it. If we do small pulls, it's very easy to compete with the other classes. However, big pulls (CN/ESoT) are where the gap really widens and we have no chance to compete.
Alright, I think it's fair to say that most of you guys know that I've been around for a while. I didn't start at beta, but I started around mod 2 launch, and I've been maining CW ever since. I even got around to writing a decent guide this module (note: DONT FOLLOW IT UNTIL I FIGURE OUT WTF TO DO WITH THIS NERF).
I haven't run numbers yet on preview. I'm patching it while I type this. I will definetely be posting what I find my reduction in damage to be.
Is it the death of CW? No. Nothing is the "death" of CW. I've been playing my CW since module 2. I love it. I've tried other classes, and none have captured me like CW has. I'm a CW, it's the simple, it's just what I say.
Now, don't kill me for saying this, because it comes in two parts: I think the lostmauth set did indeed need a nerf. It was overpowered. HOWEVER, we needed a buff to compensate, not a nerf to broaden the gap between CW and other classes. I know for a fact without testing that this is at the bare minimum a 20% nerf to my damage, as the lol procs contribute on average 19%-22% of my damage on its own. I have yet to test how it will effect secondary proc rates, and am going to be doing that now.
I do agree that CW has been relentlessly nerfed, and the original few nerfs were needed, but they were poorly implemented. I remember when CW required SKILL, we had to aim our attacks, time our rotations and dodges. It was not the button mashing, keyboard mashing class that it is today. It was elegant, and required chaining, and other unique things.
We've suffered a lot of nerfs, we're all forced to use storm spell and CP to deal any damage. What I'd like to see is a large buff to encounter damage, at-will damage, and the feats in the thaumaturge tree. If they were all buffed by 2x, maybe, just maybe, I'd argue that the nerf was justified. Our damage would still be somewhat reduced, not the same as it was for sure, but we'd still be able to competitively deal damage. Now, I fear the only way we will deal lots of damage is if we stack movement speed and run ahead of our groups.
Remember, this is all speculation, I'm heading over to preview now to do some actual number crunching.
lol to idea of making their base dps 2x better they should just replace thaum capstone with something similar to destroyer capstone but even this might break game and make lf4x cw reality again at least now ppl just lf dps
Except not no one will be considering CWs DPS. I get what all of you are saying, but when you make comments like "everyone was impacted by the eLoL set equally", you have no idea what you're talking about. SWs lost less than 5% DPS, if they were even running it. HR was unaffected. GWF and TR lost about 1/4-1/3 of their DPS. CW lost almost 1/2 of their damage. How can you justify CWs not getting buffed? lmao
Are you ok with a BiS GWF doing 30% less DPS than a SW 1k+ IL lower than him? Because that's the reality you're going to face. At that same token, CWs will be doing ~30% less damage than a GWF/TR. How do you justify any of that?
And to the guy that said CWs needed nerfs, go fund yourself. You have no idea what we've endured. We're had more class changing nerfs than anyone. They took our control, our target limits and our DPS twice. The ONLY buff CWs have gotten were to the (still broken) Chaos Magic last year.
And to what @thefabricant was saying, we've been reduced to being buff HAMSTER. A MoF Renegade offers weaker buffs than GF and DC and won't even do half the DPS of any other classes.
Just by you making that comment means you know nothing about CWs. We already have to work extra hard just to be compeitive WITH the eLoL set, and now even the best CW would struggle to out-DPS the worst DPS classes in some cases. I prematurely switched to my arcane build now that the nerf's going life, and I can honestly say that I have to work more than twice as hard just to be competitive with a TR/GWF who still get max result for little effort.
And if you have any doubts that this almost destroys the SS Paragon, just ask @ironzerg79. I'm curious as to what he has to say about the matter.
sry but there is no room in game for cw to be top dps because when this happen all u see is lf 4xcw do u want game to be destroyed for anyone who do not roll cw like it was before and to be hones mof should have been superior to ss after all it is a fire path so now we might see more of mof cws
You do realize that in real D&D (which is what this game is supposed to be based on), Wizards historically have been one of the top DPS classes, right? We're not asking for a free Paingiver button. We're asking to have an equal chance of getting it. And the trade-off between MoF and SS was pretty balanced before the nerf. SS got more DPS on mobs and MoF obliterated their DPS on bosses. Now, there isn't any balance. SS, as it sits, is dead. And I'm sorry, but we're already seeing "LF SW/GF only" spam on Xbox, and the set isn't even nerfed there yet. You haven't seen a "LF x4 CW" message since CN was farmable, and you know it.
Some CWs said they had a better dps with a recovery/baby owlbear build, I guess it would be worth a try
im opposed to making lockbox items strickly the reason you can play a class.. its not feasable for 90% of most poeple to deal with these items.
Im sorry, but this class isnt dead.. but its not a controller /striker.. not after this nerf.. its a leadership/controller.
Im sorry but there are ALREADY leadership utility classes, why is the CW being pigeonholed into such a role?
It makes no sense, its a popular class, played by thousands, i think a poll will quickly show people want it as a CONTROLLER/STRIKER just as it was designed to be.
I will harp on this for awhile more.. you are making this class into a leadership only class. and its NOT ok with me.
unlike alot of other people.. i have several dps classes at 70 with most of the boons, the RP however is HARSH I dont have just 10 million rp hanging around to make another class "insta" viable as my Cw was.
Sure all content will still be doable with this leadership toon and sure.. another leadership toon will be welcome I guess.. I just ALREADY play a leadership toon and didnt want to play another.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
maybe the op is just new to the game... When cryptic closes a door they crank open a window, there is no way to avoid them making some new set or power combo that will still be exploitable to big damage or debuff, thats their modus operandi and the way they profit. probably will be expensive, as always... The only reason they waited that long to fix lostmauth is to wait for max market penetration, several double rps later and probably everyone that wanted to have the set maxed already has. So it was time to change and make the treadmill run again.
I am perfectly fine with my cw as it has being my main since beta. I play all the other classes too and if I really need to take a break from cw I can easily jump to any other class.
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instynctiveMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,885Arc User
There are plenty of CWs doing just fine without lostmauth already. Don't forget that all classes are losing the brokenness of lostmauth, CW still have plenty of tricks up its sleeve if you care to look for them.
Post LOL nerf Focused Wizardry should be changed to Damage increase on both AOE and Single Target....problem solved. Maybe not but just thought I would stir the pot into ideas for easy balance discussions
Post LOL nerf Focused Wizardry should be changed to Damage increase on both AOE and Single Target....problem solved. Maybe not but just thought I would stir the pot into ideas for easy balance discussions
30% increase to single targets is nice, but not as big as you'd expect. Remember, Chilling Presence is up to 96%, and the thaum tree is 40% or something like that as well.
But 40% to AOE is quite a lot. Again, I was just trying to "stir" discussion on ways to improve CW through changes / buffs that would bring us on par DPS wise, while maintaining our "Focus" on "controlling the battlefield through mass damage". That is after all what the "control" in Control Wizard is supposed to mean.
I would be interested in seeing how much LOL contributes (as a percentage of DPS) to single target boss fights vs fights that have a need for AOE. It has probably already been shown by Fab or Ironzerg, I just do not remember seeing it.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I would venture about 15-20% of your damage in a single target fight, depending on your load out.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
edited April 2016
Players who love cws will play regardless. But admit it, CWs really DO deserve a buff in DPS in compensation of this nerf of LM set. Try to look at the best DPSing CWs (Yes notice I didn't say top dpsers, because that's not a place CWs will normally be place anymore, good old times are gone.) and you will notice that they have LM set. Try running ACT with them, see how much LM set contributes to their dps, I'm sure if you don't play a CW, you'll be extremely surprised at the % and the catch? They will never top the DPS chart even with LM set most of the time. Put a BiS CW with other BiS classes that is not support (not DC, GF, OP), your confusion will clear up by itself. That being said, coming from a DC main, I can say that I would be joyful already when there's no nerf in each new patch for my class (which unfortunately there is again, with reason but badly done once again) seeing CWs going down the same road sucks.
As to my points, I have posted once in feedback forums and see no point in repeating.
I've seen move CWs from the state of current broken GWFs and SWs to the state of how GWFs are before the buff... Ex-GWF fate is the one CWs will most likely be having post-LM nerf, but then I would probably get heat for saying this too :P
Nerf LM, Buff CWs DPS
Death? No! But death isn't to be feared, it's living on hanging there barely alive that is. Will CWs be killed that easily? I don't think so. They will be SURVIVING, not LIVING.
I will read the topic a bit later when I get more time...
Just wanted to say - I wouldn't be here if I didn't see the potential in the CW. I wouldn't even play MOD9 if that was the case. I must also say that I'm happy that LM set got fixed, however it is still the best 3/3 around which is a rather absurd thing.
Given the pace of the devs I simply wish that there was some level 70+ equivalent sets and, unfortunately, they're all level 60.
Some of the choices are mysterious, such as giving the Tenser's floating Disc some amazing stats. In the coming months and the increase of the powers all-around, it's only going to be stronger.
I wish that black ice set actually did something worthwhile.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
I agree.
And as for Tenser's Disk, it's taken straight out of D&D...Tenser's Transformation. It was pretty much a last ditch spell that turned your wizard into a melee killing machine, hence why the one use is actually HAMSTER for melee classes, and not casters
I admit cw will not be the leading horse for topping the chart. But dead of cw which has largest population of all classes? It is already a paradox. Sw in fact is the best dps class now, why so few people play this class? There are more things than dps. If everyone want pure high dps, SW should be much more populated than now.
Ana-GWF SM Destroyer | Farseer-CW MoF Renegade | Leon-GF SM Tactician Adrik Battlefate-DC DO Virtuous | Cassi Woodsheart-HR PF Trapper
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
there is orcus, that some poeple are tellign me is bugged.. but ive yet to even see a drop of any of this set yet.
if it is bugged, some poeple will buy/grind for it.. im sure.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
So I think we're pretty much in agreement here. With Lostmauth being such a big component of the CW's DPS, things will have to be adjusted. And with that, I'd also love to have a discussion with the new guy in charge of class balance about the overall role of the CW.
I fell in love with the CW three years ago because of the Control aspect of the class. Very early on, CW DPS wasn't great, but they made up for it by being able to legitimately lock down big groups of bad guys, use push and pulls to group up hordes of enemies, with enough DPS damage to deal with that. I loved getting into fights other DPS classes struggled with because I could creatively use my CC rotations to keep an enemy pretty much locked down while I chipped off their health.
Anyone else? If our DPS is (for all intents and purposes) being nerfed again, let's talk about the control side of things?
What are some changes there? What if the CC components of our specials always had some effect, from minions to bosses?
For example, Steal Time has a stun component. That stun component always stuns lesser mobs for full duration, half duration on stronger mobs and no stun on elite/boss mobs. But stuns always have a debuff effect that lasts for the full duration, something like 25% reduced damage.
Dazes do the same thing, but they reduce attack speed by 25%.
Change the Frozen state to not be a hard CC, but an effect that sticks at 7 stacks (still keeping the 6 freeze stacks) that reduces movement speed by 25%.
So all those CC effects control weaker mobs, and debuff larger mobs, so you're ALWAYS doing something worthwhile.
Then you can take the Oppressor tree and tweak it so the tree improves duration and magnitude of the debuffs. Then you're on your way to having three viable paths for the CW (CC/Debuff, DPS, Buff), assuming you do a damage tweak to help the CW at least stay competitive with other DPS classes if they chose to go that route.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
So I think we're pretty much in agreement here. With Lostmauth being such a big component of the CW's DPS, things will have to be adjusted. And with that, I'd also love to have a discussion with the new guy in charge of class balance about the overall role of the CW.
I fell in love with the CW three years ago because of the Control aspect of the class. Very early on, CW DPS wasn't great, but they made up for it by being able to legitimately lock down big groups of bad guys, use push and pulls to group up hordes of enemies, with enough DPS damage to deal with that. I loved getting into fights other DPS classes struggled with because I could creatively use my CC rotations to keep an enemy pretty much locked down while I chipped off their health.
Anyone else? If our DPS is (for all intents and purposes) being nerfed again, let's talk about the control side of things?
What are some changes there? What if the CC components of our specials always had some effect, from minions to bosses?
For example, Steal Time has a stun component. That stun component always stuns lesser mobs for full duration, half duration on stronger mobs and no stun on elite/boss mobs. But stuns always have a debuff effect that lasts for the full duration, something like 25% reduced damage.
Dazes do the same thing, but they reduce attack speed by 25%.
Change the Frozen state to not be a hard CC, but an effect that sticks at 7 stacks (still keeping the 6 freeze stacks) that reduces movement speed by 25%.
So all those CC effects control weaker mobs, and debuff larger mobs, so you're ALWAYS doing something worthwhile.
Then you can take the Oppressor tree and tweak it so the tree improves duration and magnitude of the debuffs. Then you're on your way to having three viable paths for the CW (CC/Debuff, DPS, Buff), assuming you do a damage tweak to help the CW at least stay competitive with other DPS classes if they chose to go that route.
I am not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I am throwing it out there regardless, the way to make oppressor good and also buff the dps of say thaum in a justifiable manner is to make oppressor the contoller paragon. Remove the control aspect from the base abilities of control wizard, then for the T4 and beyond feats (the feats beyond icy veins) you then add control to different CW abilities, finishing off with the capstone which adds a significant amount to control bonus. Orb of Imposition would then have to be reworked.
The T4 and beyond feats for thaum could then be reworked to give significant damage boosts to everything and it wouldn't matter, because a CW who took these feats would then be able to be on par with another damage dealing class, at the loss of having control.
Finally, the T4 feats and beyond feats for renegade would give significant party boosts, much stronger than the current existing ones.
How I would go about the change:
Lower the base damage of all CW abilities, with the exception of abilities that are already pure control (EF, Imprisonment for example). The thaum capstone could then double the base damage of all CW abilities and T4+ feats could then be significant damage boosts.
Remove the control aspect from all of the following abilities: Entangling Force Icy Terrain Shard of Endless Avalanche Arcane Singularity Maelstrom of Chaos Furious Immolation Steal Time Imprisonment Orb of Imposition and frost wave would need a complete rework.
Oppressor capstone could then add control to all of these abilities and maybe some others. The T4 and higher oppressor feats could increase control effectiveness or give the ability to pierce control resistance to some extent.
Give renegade stronger party buffs. For example: Chilling Advantage: Shares half the damage bonus from chilling presence with allies.
This would make all 3 paths viable, whilst still forcing you to choose 1 path. It would no longer matter that icy veins was a t3 feat for example since only an oppressor would be able to freeze, for a thaum, it would just mean that they got more damage from chilling presence for example.
I am probably missing something, but it would be a much more diverse class if something like this was done.
I would also suggest that maybe with the Lostmauth changes, there's no real need to further reduce damage on any CW abilities. Just add that damage back to the Thaumaturge tree, while enhancing the CC abilities of the Oppressor tree and the buff abilities of the Renegade.
I think the way to make all three paths viable is this. If you're adding 3 DPS classes to a party (let's assume content is balanced around healer/tank), does the CW add enough to that party to put them on par with other DPS classes, and that doesn't necessarily need to be added DPS.
An Oppressor can add enough control and debuffs so that 2 DPS + Oppressor = 3 DPS classes.
A Thaumaturge can provide enough extra damage so that 2 DPS + Thuamaturege = 3 DPS classes.
A Renegade should bring enough team buffs to the party so that 2 DPS + Renegade = 3 DPS classes.
Each of these trees would definitely reflect a different build and playstyle, which would be fantastic for the class, but ultimately maintain the party balance so that regardless of the tree, each style is valuable. That being said, a group running with each of the three trees is likely to experience a very different dungeon run based on the playstyle of the CW, but that's (in my opinion) where the added fun comes into the game.
All these ideas are great, but it really depends on what the devs want our class to be. What changes are they willing to make? What sort of damage output would they expect a BiS CW to have? How much control should an oppressor CW have? How much control should a thaum CW have? I think that in order to properly balance the class, those questions need to be answered, because after this nerf, CW will be a mediocre controller, mediocre DPS, and mediocre buffs. We aren't exceptional at anything.
I would also suggest that maybe with the Lostmauth changes, there's no real need to further reduce damage on any CW abilities. Just add that damage back to the Thaumaturge tree, while enhancing the CC abilities of the Oppressor tree and the buff abilities of the Renegade.
I think the way to make all three paths viable is this. If you're adding 3 DPS classes to a party (let's assume content is balanced around healer/tank), does the CW add enough to that party to put them on par with other DPS classes, and that doesn't necessarily need to be added DPS.
An Oppressor can add enough control and debuffs so that 2 DPS + Oppressor = 3 DPS classes.
A Thaumaturge can provide enough extra damage so that 2 DPS + Thuamaturege = 3 DPS classes.
A Renegade should bring enough team buffs to the party so that 2 DPS + Renegade = 3 DPS classes.
Each of these trees would definitely reflect a different build and playstyle, which would be fantastic for the class, but ultimately maintain the party balance so that regardless of the tree, each style is valuable. That being said, a group running with each of the three trees is likely to experience a very different dungeon run based on the playstyle of the CW, but that's (in my opinion) where the added fun comes into the game.
The main issue is at the moment that in ideal groups, buffers are actually far stronger than dps.
Here is an example: (For the same of simplicity, assume that buffers/debuffers do 0 dps and their only function is their buffs and debuffs).
When forming the party, you firstly want to start off with the hardest hitting class there is, in the current meta, that would be GWF or SW, or GF for single target.
Lets declare (for the sake of easy math) the highest dps to have a value of 1.
Now, we have an option between adding another dps class which is equally good, which will increase dps to a value of 2 ( a 100% increase) or a DC, which will increase DPS to a value of 4 (with all the buffs and debuffs). It is fairly obvious that the DCs buffs are superior to the additional dps class.
Now, we have the choice of adding an additional dps which will increase the total damage output to 8 (2*4) or, you could choose to add a GF, who buffs base damage and can increase the dps to 12 (4*3).
So far, you have a party with a DC, a GF and a single DPS. Now, you have the choice between a MoF ren CW who will increase the parties dps by 200% with all the buffs and debuffs, or you can choose another dps. The MoF ren CW will increase dps to a value of 36, the additional dps will increase damage by (2*4*3) or a value of 24. So once again, a buffer is better than an additional dps.
At this point, its a choice between another buffer/debuffer or a dps, a dps will double the total group dps and none of the remaining buffer/debuffers exceed a 100% boost, at this point, the additional dps wins out.
This is the issue with the current state of the game, buffs are so powerful that they are literally stronger than adding an additional dps in almost all cases. A mof renegade is not equal to a thaum, in the right party, he is far superior.
Be vary, though, that the CC mainly got destroyed thanks to the outcries from the PvP playerbase, which I find completely biased since the PvE players shouldn't suffer due to the PvP "balance" of things.
Yet another reason to NOT like the PvP aspect of this game.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
Some CWs said they had a better dps with a recovery/baby owlbear build, I guess it would be worth a try
im opposed to making lockbox items strickly the reason you can play a class.. its not feasable for 90% of most poeple to deal with these items.
Im sorry, but this class isnt dead.. but its not a controller /striker.. not after this nerf.. its a leadership/controller.
Im sorry but there are ALREADY leadership utility classes, why is the CW being pigeonholed into such a role?
It makes no sense, its a popular class, played by thousands, i think a poll will quickly show people want it as a CONTROLLER/STRIKER just as it was designed to be.
I will harp on this for awhile more.. you are making this class into a leadership only class. and its NOT ok with me.
unlike alot of other people.. i have several dps classes at 70 with most of the boons, the RP however is HARSH I dont have just 10 million rp hanging around to make another class "insta" viable as my Cw was.
Sure all content will still be doable with this leadership toon and sure.. another leadership toon will be welcome I guess.. I just ALREADY play a leadership toon and didnt want to play another.
bonding runestone also coming from lockbox mounts? from lockbox! or you dont use them?:)
Comments
Then not long after SS got nerfed, he switched to a GWF if memory serves correct?
Me thinks he 'does' care about DPS, he's just ashamed to admit it.
If a CW doesn't care about DPS (before this nerf), then they're a burden to their team. Even if they go MoF Ren, they're still a burden to their team, since a GF/DC offer much more reliable buffs/debuffs.
Say you have a GF and a DC already as well as 2 equally good dps (assuming they are perfect dps). You could either choose between running a 3rd perfect dps (which would boost the parties damage by 50%) or you could choose a MoF ren CW. A MoF ren CW can boost party effectiveness by 140% (I am not making up this figure, I have parses of MoF ren CW's you can look at if you like). Would you rather party dps was increased by 50% by taking the 3rd dps, or 140% by taking the MoF ren CW?
But "Death of CW" seems overblown. The set getting nerfed takes every class using it down a notch, not just CW
I'm at work, so I can't provide the exact numbers. But well managed arcane mastery stacks and ST on Tab (Imprisonment for bosses, if you're using Icy Terrain to build chill stacks) were competitive with base SS damage. The only bad side to the build is, we have to swap Powers constantly and have to be much more mindful of our stack building. It also means a LOT of ST cancelling, which can be very hard to master and gets very boring after a while. Not to mention it requires a complete gear change and probably a respec and reroll.
That said, it still means we have to work 2-3x harder to maximize our DPS over other classes, and we'll still be a bit behind everyone else, unless you can consistently run at 110% all the time. I've had mixed results with it. If we do small pulls, it's very easy to compete with the other classes. However, big pulls (CN/ESoT) are where the gap really widens and we have no chance to compete.
Im sorry, but this class isnt dead.. but its not a controller /striker.. not after this nerf.. its a leadership/controller.
Im sorry but there are ALREADY leadership utility classes, why is the CW being pigeonholed into such a role?
It makes no sense, its a popular class, played by thousands, i think a poll will quickly show people want it as a CONTROLLER/STRIKER just as it was designed to be.
I will harp on this for awhile more.. you are making this class into a leadership only class. and its NOT ok with me.
unlike alot of other people.. i have several dps classes at 70 with most of the boons, the RP however is HARSH I dont have just 10 million rp hanging around to make another class "insta" viable as my Cw was.
Sure all content will still be doable with this leadership toon and sure.. another leadership toon will be welcome I guess.. I just ALREADY play a leadership toon and didnt want to play another.
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I am perfectly fine with my cw as it has being my main since beta. I play all the other classes too and if I really need to take a break from cw I can easily jump to any other class.
My god, the dramallama. *eyeroll*
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30% increase to single targets is nice, but not as big as you'd expect. Remember, Chilling Presence is up to 96%, and the thaum tree is 40% or something like that as well.
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As to my points, I have posted once in feedback forums and see no point in repeating.
I've seen move CWs from the state of current broken GWFs and SWs to the state of how GWFs are before the buff... Ex-GWF fate is the one CWs will most likely be having post-LM nerf, but then I would probably get heat for saying this too :P
Nerf LM, Buff CWs DPS
Death? No!
But death isn't to be feared, it's living on hanging there barely alive that is.
Will CWs be killed that easily? I don't think so.
They will be SURVIVING, not LIVING.
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Just wanted to say - I wouldn't be here if I didn't see the potential in the CW. I wouldn't even play MOD9 if that was the case.
I must also say that I'm happy that LM set got fixed, however it is still the best 3/3 around which is a rather absurd thing.
Given the pace of the devs I simply wish that there was some level 70+ equivalent sets and, unfortunately, they're all level 60.
Some of the choices are mysterious, such as giving the Tenser's floating Disc some amazing stats. In the coming months and the increase of the powers all-around, it's only going to be stronger.
I wish that black ice set actually did something worthwhile.
And as for Tenser's Disk, it's taken straight out of D&D...Tenser's Transformation. It was pretty much a last ditch spell that turned your wizard into a melee killing machine, hence why the one use is actually HAMSTER for melee classes, and not casters
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if it is bugged, some poeple will buy/grind for it.. im sure.
I fell in love with the CW three years ago because of the Control aspect of the class. Very early on, CW DPS wasn't great, but they made up for it by being able to legitimately lock down big groups of bad guys, use push and pulls to group up hordes of enemies, with enough DPS damage to deal with that. I loved getting into fights other DPS classes struggled with because I could creatively use my CC rotations to keep an enemy pretty much locked down while I chipped off their health.
Anyone else? If our DPS is (for all intents and purposes) being nerfed again, let's talk about the control side of things?
What are some changes there? What if the CC components of our specials always had some effect, from minions to bosses?
For example, Steal Time has a stun component. That stun component always stuns lesser mobs for full duration, half duration on stronger mobs and no stun on elite/boss mobs. But stuns always have a debuff effect that lasts for the full duration, something like 25% reduced damage.
Dazes do the same thing, but they reduce attack speed by 25%.
Change the Frozen state to not be a hard CC, but an effect that sticks at 7 stacks (still keeping the 6 freeze stacks) that reduces movement speed by 25%.
So all those CC effects control weaker mobs, and debuff larger mobs, so you're ALWAYS doing something worthwhile.
Then you can take the Oppressor tree and tweak it so the tree improves duration and magnitude of the debuffs. Then you're on your way to having three viable paths for the CW (CC/Debuff, DPS, Buff), assuming you do a damage tweak to help the CW at least stay competitive with other DPS classes if they chose to go that route.
I am not sure if this is a good idea or not, but I am throwing it out there regardless, the way to make oppressor good and also buff the dps of say thaum in a justifiable manner is to make oppressor the contoller paragon. Remove the control aspect from the base abilities of control wizard, then for the T4 and beyond feats (the feats beyond icy veins) you then add control to different CW abilities, finishing off with the capstone which adds a significant amount to control bonus. Orb of Imposition would then have to be reworked.
The T4 and beyond feats for thaum could then be reworked to give significant damage boosts to everything and it wouldn't matter, because a CW who took these feats would then be able to be on par with another damage dealing class, at the loss of having control.
Finally, the T4 feats and beyond feats for renegade would give significant party boosts, much stronger than the current existing ones.
How I would go about the change:
Lower the base damage of all CW abilities, with the exception of abilities that are already pure control (EF, Imprisonment for example).
The thaum capstone could then double the base damage of all CW abilities and T4+ feats could then be significant damage boosts.
Remove the control aspect from all of the following abilities:
Entangling Force
Icy Terrain
Shard of Endless Avalanche
Arcane Singularity
Maelstrom of Chaos
Furious Immolation
Steal Time
Imprisonment
Orb of Imposition and frost wave would need a complete rework.
Oppressor capstone could then add control to all of these abilities and maybe some others. The T4 and higher oppressor feats could increase control effectiveness or give the ability to pierce control resistance to some extent.
Give renegade stronger party buffs. For example:
Chilling Advantage: Shares half the damage bonus from chilling presence with allies.
This would make all 3 paths viable, whilst still forcing you to choose 1 path. It would no longer matter that icy veins was a t3 feat for example since only an oppressor would be able to freeze, for a thaum, it would just mean that they got more damage from chilling presence for example.
I am probably missing something, but it would be a much more diverse class if something like this was done.
I agree 100% with the concept.
I would also suggest that maybe with the Lostmauth changes, there's no real need to further reduce damage on any CW abilities. Just add that damage back to the Thaumaturge tree, while enhancing the CC abilities of the Oppressor tree and the buff abilities of the Renegade.
I think the way to make all three paths viable is this. If you're adding 3 DPS classes to a party (let's assume content is balanced around healer/tank), does the CW add enough to that party to put them on par with other DPS classes, and that doesn't necessarily need to be added DPS.
An Oppressor can add enough control and debuffs so that 2 DPS + Oppressor = 3 DPS classes.
A Thaumaturge can provide enough extra damage so that 2 DPS + Thuamaturege = 3 DPS classes.
A Renegade should bring enough team buffs to the party so that 2 DPS + Renegade = 3 DPS classes.
Each of these trees would definitely reflect a different build and playstyle, which would be fantastic for the class, but ultimately maintain the party balance so that regardless of the tree, each style is valuable. That being said, a group running with each of the three trees is likely to experience a very different dungeon run based on the playstyle of the CW, but that's (in my opinion) where the added fun comes into the game.
|| Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
Thaumaturge's Time To Shine: A Complete Guide
Here is an example:
(For the same of simplicity, assume that buffers/debuffers do 0 dps and their only function is their buffs and debuffs).
When forming the party, you firstly want to start off with the hardest hitting class there is, in the current meta, that would be GWF or SW, or GF for single target.
Lets declare (for the sake of easy math) the highest dps to have a value of 1.
Now, we have an option between adding another dps class which is equally good, which will increase dps to a value of 2 ( a 100% increase) or a DC, which will increase DPS to a value of 4 (with all the buffs and debuffs). It is fairly obvious that the DCs buffs are superior to the additional dps class.
Now, we have the choice of adding an additional dps which will increase the total damage output to 8 (2*4) or, you could choose to add a GF, who buffs base damage and can increase the dps to 12 (4*3).
So far, you have a party with a DC, a GF and a single DPS. Now, you have the choice between a MoF ren CW who will increase the parties dps by 200% with all the buffs and debuffs, or you can choose another dps. The MoF ren CW will increase dps to a value of 36, the additional dps will increase damage by (2*4*3) or a value of 24. So once again, a buffer is better than an additional dps.
At this point, its a choice between another buffer/debuffer or a dps, a dps will double the total group dps and none of the remaining buffer/debuffers exceed a 100% boost, at this point, the additional dps wins out.
This is the issue with the current state of the game, buffs are so powerful that they are literally stronger than adding an additional dps in almost all cases. A mof renegade is not equal to a thaum, in the right party, he is far superior.
Yet another reason to NOT like the PvP aspect of this game.