It didn't start that way but it's sure going in that direction now, isn't it?
So much crying in this thread. You want nerfed what you don't use or don't like and want buffed what you have and like. Same old, another day on the NWO boards. Take it back to the PvP forum please...
If people want to make class-cannon GFs that do high DPS with high item levels, why can't that be an option? It has a buff tree, a tank tree, and a DPS tree. It's an option put there by the developers. Guardian fighter has the word fighter in there. What you really want is a lack of competition at being top pain-givers. It's really the motivator here. Why is the only complaint DPS-ability? Hmm. Not, 'hey, why can they block 80% of dmg but an OP can only block 60%?' It's complaining about DPS over and over, and nothing else.
Many of you are posting under the perspective that the class should be played the way you think it should be played. Bull!
The GF class was useless and shunned for many mods, and many of you are keyboard-crusading to bring those days back. It's the same 3 people posting a slightly different version of their last post, over and over and over again. You made your point 3 pages ago.
Ok, so from what I read, GF are now, all of a sudden, superhero DPS machines - cool (load of HAMSTER but cool I can read that).
Anyone even thought about the fact that due to the lol set nerf, we all do much less damage? Nope probably not a lot of us.
The thing is, with overperforming lol set, we've done so much damage that noone even cared that DPS specced GF's can do respectful damage. Damage dealers we're waaaaaaaaaaay higher in epeen boosting paingiver chart.
So now when we finally have WAI lol set, GF's are the uber class in the game?
C'mon guys, it really can't be serious...
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
I have removed a whole lot of off topic flaming and bickering back and forth about things that have very little to do with the changes to the GF. If this weren't a dev created thread, I would close it. Please keep to the original topic, and stop with the personal attacks. Warnings will be sent if this continues. Thanks.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Think about the impact of the other 98% of GFs out there before you push for nerfs.
0
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I am..
this has nothing to do with regular tank built gfs, that was why I am refraining from asking for particular nerfs until I understand how those few who are out dpsing all other classes, are doing it.
It will have to be addressed and corrected, gfs simply were not meant to carry the dps load and it unbalances the game.
Death , you think we are asking for something to change, frankly whenever we figure this out, it probably wont even impact you.
However, since its known to be possible now, you will start seeing it spread.
That is how this game has always worked.
Its just a potential game balance issue, if the devs could work it out and fix it before it goes bonkers, it would be appreciated. Right now im stuck in the middle of EE and have no real desire to swap all my enchants over to start testing my GF to figure it out, but will do so , Im hoping my general laziness with get to someone like sharp and he will do it for me.. =P
that is what I prefer!
0
arandompandaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 107Arc User
This is a problem with group buffs obviously. Look at the graph on the bottom, you can clearly see the normal max dps for the goristro phase. It goes up, then he charges and it goes to 0, then it goes up again. Then, against demogorgon itself, a stationary target there is suddenly an insanely huge damage spike from everyone. Like a buff or debuff (or both) interacting in a weird way and giving everyone crazy damage. Damage effectiveness is 250% on average even. That's another sign buffs/debuffs are the problem here. I suspect this is one or more of the old broken mod 5 sets at work here, maybe some weapon enchant on top of that. And of course a buff cleric. People are right that this is a problem for only 1% of players.
Buffs are definitely what's going on here - especially DC's encounter buffs in the past few days.
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arandompandaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 107Arc User
GF is a Defender/Controller and should only have enough damage to gain and hold aggro, IMO.
GF is not a controller class. That role typically goes to HR and CW although the majority of those 2 classes don't bother with controlling - they opt for high-dps instead. Why? Because the game design goal-seeks for Speed-Killing (see CW class thread Death is the Best CC). So what does Cryptic do to counteract Speed-Killing. Introduce insane boss damage spikes that conveniently cause people to want to respec to boost Deflect. Which GF sucks at btw (ie...Deflect). No amount of Shield can stop those kinds a sub-boss and boss dps spikes. If the 2 classes with the most kinds of CC encounters have a majority opt for favoring DPS instead - why shoe-horn GFs into that role instead?
It does sound to me like a lot of people are agitating for GFs to return to their Red-Headed-Stepchild days of yore. The response to that previously was that GFs were one of the least played classes in the game. I predict an exodus of GFs once again if the class is re-nerfed.
BTW - most CWs these days are Renegade instead of Thaumaturge but Thaumaturge is still the feat tree to go to if a CW wants to maximize DPS. For the purposes of a challenge one should not only ask for similar IL but also make sure the CW is Thaumaturge, not Renegade. A high end BIS min-maxed Thaumaturge CW will definitely out-dps an identically BiS min-maxed spec Renegade CW. Also make sure they are Spellstorm (high-DPS-spike damage specialist), not Master of Flame (DoT specialist).
Spellstorm Thaumaturge is the CW equivalent of a Swordmaster Conqueror GF
Post edited by arandompanda on
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arandompandaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 107Arc User
edited April 2016
Here's the biggest problem with Cryptic delivering their signature-style class nerfs. It always ends up making the people who play whatever class they're playing less fun. Nerfing in a game that favors Speed-Killing translates as less-fun to many players no matter what class they're playing. That's why so many players care about the Paingiver chart despite people on the forums scratching their nose wondering why anyone cares about Paingiver rankings. You can't have it both ways. Either paingiver matters so you call for class nerfs if a class is "unbalanced" vis-a-vis your own class or it doesn't and you don't wade into these kinds of threads. Probably most people do the latter.
So to target high-end people the Pro-Nerf crowd want tamed it ends up creating the next round of mass exodus either to the next FotM DPS-ers (or just as likely just leaving for good). Upon where the circular firing squad calls for nerfs moves once again to the new FotM DPS class.
GFs mimic CW in one way. Calling a lot of trash mobs to you is the inverse of CWs having encounters that can hit most mobs on the board no matter how far away they are. GWFs have their dps advantage with that awesome shift key zoom they have. If you can sprint to the mobs getting there first to keep your stacks up and are 3K (as a lot of GWFs now are) there's a good chance it won't matter that GF can hold aggro. You'll out-dps everyone simply because your GWF gets more hits and kills things before the rest of the party catches up. And if GF does hold aggro (many these days don't bother) it gives GWF an extra boost because they can boost their dps further by taking advantage of the GF being a magnet for them. It frees up an encounter (no slotting Come and Get It for example) so you get to use better dps encounters for speed-killing.
DoTs are a fluff feature these days just like tanking is. Most of the striker classes kill things before the 2nd round of DoTs even have a chance to tick. Ditto for how CC is a fluff feature vs speed-killing. Even healing is being relegated once again to a fluff party extra due to increased sources of healing from anything other than a heal class (hence why I dumped being a heal cleric and went dps).
Pop into the frey for the other 75% damage buff or more depending on if they have negation enchantment.
Pretty sure ITF doesn't count DR from Negation. Should be hitting over 100% with just defense anyways.
You may be right. I don't have a negation so I couldn't test it. It my testing, the best I could get ITF to was 70% extra damage.
0
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited May 2016
I suspect the culprit of the high dps of GFs is Knight's Challenge. The fact is that AoE dps is no longer as good as it used to be before mod 6. The design of fights has changed and now single target damage is king. This may be also the reason why CWs are feeling left in the dust.
I would be all for removing the double damage done AND double damage received from Knight's Challenge (while keeping the -50% damage to everything else of course). It would make all those concerns about GF's dps (both in PvE and PvP) go away and It would be quite an awesome buff for tanking GFs as well.
Ok,cause i read this often and makes me facepalm each time:
IN mod6 all Classes got a weapon base damage increase.
Here is a list that contains the weapon damage of vanilla sharandar weapons (blue) that did not updated and stayed level 60 untill very recently recently.And the list of the first elemental weapons of mod6.Compare before you speak ,please.
As for the GWFs complaining about other classes and asking for nerfs:nothing new.The most noumerous class community after the CWs. They have been broken since mod2. Mod2 : IV Sent (at the same time their complaints nerfed and destroyed HR class cause roots went through unstoppable.HRs got rework but the most balanced and fun to play time was that.) Mod3: Destro IV Mod4/5:Intimidation builds expanding Mod6 and after : Broken in a million ways.Destro stacks stacking ad infitum ,huge damage ,huge tankiness ,HPs stacking ,Destro rework giving them DR but also building intimidation in taking and dealing damage (lol) and sprint that now give them Dr aswell.
Going in other classes threads and asking for nerfs.
i am sincere in this:if a guy comes here and plays a DC/HR gives us feedback,most Gfs will listen to him and start a dialogue.really. But GWFs? Nope.
Ah..about your prones thing: You still have the most broken prone power in the game Savage Advance . And at the same time prones were removed also Gfs prones removed except Bull. FLS of Gfs got nerfed aswell.
---------------------------
But ok GWfs learned their poet now ,whenever they post they write the same BS ,rest of the community is sick to read after reading 10,000 times.
"yes we GWFs are overperforming ,but it is because of gear.We are gear dependent" lol
yes ,the rest classes don't need high gear to perform ,we run with rank5s.
I l write as a separate post: The most determining factor in unsettling class balance and roles is the SH BOONS.
8k power and 8k defense ruined the classes.Now we have high DPS support classes,but also super tanky SWs ,CWs, etc...
If a balance effrt is taking place the first thing to look before studying the changes,is these two broken boons. rest are still problematic but these two are really messing things up. But i don't expect anything related to hear from the community ,since their guilds have access to these boons and fit them well. They might complain about a Gf having high offense,but a ranged class to have 12k defense ,yeah that is normal....
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I l write as a separate post: The most determining factor in unsettling class balance and roles is the SH BOONS.
8k power and 8k defense ruined the classes.Now we have high DPS support classes,but also super tanky SWs ,CWs, etc...
If a balance effrt is taking place the first thing to look before studying the changes,is these two broken boons. rest are still problematic but these two are really messing things up. But i don't expect anything related to hear from the community ,since their guilds have access to these boons and fit them well. They might complain about a Gf having high offense,but a ranged class to have 12k defense ,yeah that is normal....
I am just being clear, even with the SH boons there is NO SUCH THING as a tanky wizard in pve. You can dress up with negation and stack defense, put on elven battle and dodge, stack lifesteal etc, it still won't make a wizard tanky (and I say that now, having tried soloing the t2s, after acquiring guild boons and building around the idea of soloing dungeons.)
beckylunatic: Nope i do not mean the weapon increases we get with every mod.I meant that with mod6 introduction all classes weapon damage got a roughly 50% increase.
See my list. Gf weapon increase was separated mentioned to appeal to the Gf rage atm ,because of OP inroduction.
metal:
I responded to all GWFs posts that come to the Gf threads and ask for nerfs.How many Gfs asked for your blatantly Op class to get nerfed? 0. how many GWFs asked the same for GFs? 6 or 7.With 15 posts each.And with crappy arguments most of the time.
As for ITF: I am not against an adjustment.but i am a minority in this among GFs.ITF should have a hard cap.Cause as you said,I agree,in the future with more gear introduction ,GFs can get their defense higher=more bonus.This will make hard to balance the content in pve aswell.But as said the 90% of Gfs will n ot accept.
Sharp: At the moment you tried to solo you were with out defensive boons.or were small.Try now that you are in Win /Booze. And because you did not explore the possibility of a CW going full defensive means that does not exist?I use the same argument you used against DPS GFs. And i am not talking exclusively for Cws.There are tanky Sws.And when HR combat path gets a boost...You will see waht i mean super tanky DPs classes.
Ryu:
I agree with wrathfull warrior feat change. I agree with Shield wrath change.Actually i will go over it.It should be reworked completely.it is of small use in pve and is mostly used by PVp Gfs. i would propose to change it completely to something else.Giving movement speed? A utility stat.Something like this in line.
I disagree with combat superiority change.It is a power used universally by all paths Of GF.it will hurt the pve Gfs the most. They need that damage.And it is a feature feated by only the conq tree deep in t4 feat.i think it is fine.
Double mark bonus needs to go aswell.(But GWFs will not agree here )
And of course an ITF ...rework,slight change.
^^^^^^^^^^^
I think these changes will reduce GF damage in pvp by at least 25% and reach in circumstances up to 48% max. At least for IVs.
if these don't work, Bull could get a slight damage decrease .
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited May 2016
Nyriel, I was referring to post joining win or lose, when I said "now that I have guild boons". The tankiest a CW gets is with shield on tab+negation enchantment+lifesteal/defense boon, although I did also try with elven battle. Freedom and I both tried soloing eCC and etos. Oh and as for classes soloing t2s, a GF (bethal) has soloed eCC. For CW, etos is likely out of the question entirely after the elol set nerf, if you stack enough defense to survive comfortably, you no longer have enough dps to out dps the bosses lifesteal off adds mechanic. Believe me when I say, I did try building defensively, as well as using skills that are normally unused, as well as trying alternative specs (like MoF)
Pop into the frey for the other 75% damage buff or more depending on if they have negation enchantment.
Pretty sure ITF doesn't count DR from Negation. Should be hitting over 100% with just defense anyways.
You may be right. I don't have a negation so I couldn't test it. It my testing, the best I could get ITF to was 70% extra damage.
Negation stacks do not boost ITF.
Nancy - Dragonborn, SM Guardian Fighter A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based? 2). Yes. I am panzer! 3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen. 4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited May 2016
To be fair, GWFs these days aren't even trying to be tanks. They all go destroyer and stack crit, no wonder they're glass cannons. The dps is just too good and tanking itself is becoming less and less useful, similar to how it was in mod 5, so it's not a big loss anyway...
That's the damage on a full Tenacity BiS GWF from my scrub GF not even fully booned. The gwf doesn't has high SH boons but as you can see even IF he had 30k more HP or 6-8k more defense, my daily was still up for another 100k+ hit
Seems like Knight's Challenge is the source of all trouble here. There's no need to touch ITF at all imho if the double damage from Knight's Challenge goes away.
Comments
So much crying in this thread. You want nerfed what you don't use or don't like and want buffed what you have and like.
Same old, another day on the NWO boards. Take it back to the PvP forum please...
If people want to make class-cannon GFs that do high DPS with high item levels, why can't that be an option?
It has a buff tree, a tank tree, and a DPS tree. It's an option put there by the developers. Guardian fighter has the word fighter in there. What you really want is a lack of competition at being top pain-givers. It's really the motivator here. Why is the only complaint DPS-ability? Hmm. Not, 'hey, why can they block 80% of dmg but an OP can only block 60%?' It's complaining about DPS over and over, and nothing else.
Many of you are posting under the perspective that the class should be played the way you think it should be played.
Bull!
The GF class was useless and shunned for many mods, and many of you are keyboard-crusading to bring those days back.
It's the same 3 people posting a slightly different version of their last post, over and over and over again. You made your point 3 pages ago.
Anyone even thought about the fact that due to the lol set nerf, we all do much less damage?
Nope probably not a lot of us.
The thing is, with overperforming lol set, we've done so much damage that noone even cared that DPS specced GF's can do respectful damage. Damage dealers we're waaaaaaaaaaay higher in epeen boosting paingiver chart.
So now when we finally have WAI lol set, GF's are the uber class in the game?
C'mon guys, it really can't be serious...
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Think about the impact of the other 98% of GFs out there before you push for nerfs.
this has nothing to do with regular tank built gfs, that was why I am refraining from asking for particular nerfs until I understand how those few who are out dpsing all other classes, are doing it.
It will have to be addressed and corrected, gfs simply were not meant to carry the dps load and it unbalances the game.
Death , you think we are asking for something to change, frankly whenever we figure this out, it probably wont even impact you.
However, since its known to be possible now, you will start seeing it spread.
That is how this game has always worked.
Its just a potential game balance issue, if the devs could work it out and fix it before it goes bonkers, it would be appreciated. Right now im stuck in the middle of EE and have no real desire to swap all my enchants over to start testing my GF to figure it out, but will do so , Im hoping my general laziness with get to someone like sharp and he will do it for me.. =P
that is what I prefer!
GF is not a controller class. That role typically goes to HR and CW although the majority of those 2 classes don't bother with controlling - they opt for high-dps instead. Why? Because the game design goal-seeks for Speed-Killing (see CW class thread Death is the Best CC). So what does Cryptic do to counteract Speed-Killing. Introduce insane boss damage spikes that conveniently cause people to want to respec to boost Deflect. Which GF sucks at btw (ie...Deflect). No amount of Shield can stop those kinds a sub-boss and boss dps spikes. If the 2 classes with the most kinds of CC encounters have a majority opt for favoring DPS instead - why shoe-horn GFs into that role instead?
It does sound to me like a lot of people are agitating for GFs to return to their Red-Headed-Stepchild days of yore. The response to that previously was that GFs were one of the least played classes in the game. I predict an exodus of GFs once again if the class is re-nerfed.
BTW - most CWs these days are Renegade instead of Thaumaturge but Thaumaturge is still the feat tree to go to if a CW wants to maximize DPS. For the purposes of a challenge one should not only ask for similar IL but also make sure the CW is Thaumaturge, not Renegade. A high end BIS min-maxed Thaumaturge CW will definitely out-dps an identically BiS min-maxed spec Renegade CW. Also make sure they are Spellstorm (high-DPS-spike damage specialist), not Master of Flame (DoT specialist).
Spellstorm Thaumaturge is the CW equivalent of a Swordmaster Conqueror GF
So to target high-end people the Pro-Nerf crowd want tamed it ends up creating the next round of mass exodus either to the next FotM DPS-ers (or just as likely just leaving for good). Upon where the circular firing squad calls for nerfs moves once again to the new FotM DPS class.
GFs mimic CW in one way. Calling a lot of trash mobs to you is the inverse of CWs having encounters that can hit most mobs on the board no matter how far away they are. GWFs have their dps advantage with that awesome shift key zoom they have. If you can sprint to the mobs getting there first to keep your stacks up and are 3K (as a lot of GWFs now are) there's a good chance it won't matter that GF can hold aggro. You'll out-dps everyone simply because your GWF gets more hits and kills things before the rest of the party catches up. And if GF does hold aggro (many these days don't bother) it gives GWF an extra boost because they can boost their dps further by taking advantage of the GF being a magnet for them. It frees up an encounter (no slotting Come and Get It for example) so you get to use better dps encounters for speed-killing.
DoTs are a fluff feature these days just like tanking is. Most of the striker classes kill things before the 2nd round of DoTs even have a chance to tick. Ditto for how CC is a fluff feature vs speed-killing. Even healing is being relegated once again to a fluff party extra due to increased sources of healing from anything other than a heal class (hence why I dumped being a heal cleric and went dps).
Pretty sure ITF doesn't count DR from Negation. Should be hitting over 100% with just defense anyways.
It my testing, the best I could get ITF to was 70% extra damage.
I would be all for removing the double damage done AND double damage received from Knight's Challenge (while keeping the -50% damage to everything else of course). It would make all those concerns about GF's dps (both in PvE and PvP) go away and It would be quite an awesome buff for tanking GFs as well.
IN mod6 all Classes got a weapon base damage increase.
Here is a list that contains the weapon damage of vanilla sharandar weapons (blue) that did not updated and stayed level 60 untill very recently recently.And the list of the first elemental weapons of mod6.Compare before you speak ,please.
pre mod6 Mod6
TR: 263-322 529-647
SW:439-536 882-1079
HR:457-559 1099-1344
274-335 556-680
CW:439-536 882-1079
GWF:632-772 1271-1554
DC:439-536 882-1079
GF:526-664 1059-1295
--------------------------------
As for the GWFs complaining about other classes and asking for nerfs:nothing new.The most noumerous class community after the CWs.
They have been broken since mod2.
Mod2 : IV Sent (at the same time their complaints nerfed and destroyed HR class cause roots went through unstoppable.HRs got rework but the most balanced and fun to play time was that.)
Mod3: Destro IV
Mod4/5:Intimidation builds expanding
Mod6 and after : Broken in a million ways.Destro stacks stacking ad infitum ,huge damage ,huge tankiness ,HPs stacking ,Destro rework giving them DR but also building intimidation in taking and dealing damage (lol) and sprint that now give them Dr aswell.
Going in other classes threads and asking for nerfs.
i am sincere in this:if a guy comes here and plays a DC/HR gives us feedback,most Gfs will listen to him and start a dialogue.really.
But GWFs? Nope.
Ah..about your prones thing:
You still have the most broken prone power in the game Savage Advance .
And at the same time prones were removed also Gfs prones removed except Bull.
FLS of Gfs got nerfed aswell.
---------------------------
But ok GWfs learned their poet now ,whenever they post they write the same BS ,rest of the community is sick to read after reading 10,000 times.
"yes we GWFs are overperforming ,but it is because of gear.We are gear dependent" lol
yes ,the rest classes don't need high gear to perform ,we run with rank5s.
The most determining factor in unsettling class balance and roles is the SH BOONS.
8k power and 8k defense ruined the classes.Now we have high DPS support classes,but also super tanky SWs ,CWs, etc...
If a balance effrt is taking place the first thing to look before studying the changes,is these two broken boons.
rest are still problematic but these two are really messing things up.
But i don't expect anything related to hear from the community ,since their guilds have access to these boons and fit them well.
They might complain about a Gf having high offense,but a ranged class to have 12k defense ,yeah that is normal....
Nope i do not mean the weapon increases we get with every mod.I meant that with mod6 introduction all classes weapon damage got a roughly 50% increase.
See my list.
Gf weapon increase was separated mentioned to appeal to the Gf rage atm ,because of OP inroduction.
metal:
I responded to all GWFs posts that come to the Gf threads and ask for nerfs.How many Gfs asked for your blatantly Op class to get nerfed? 0.
how many GWFs asked the same for GFs? 6 or 7.With 15 posts each.And with crappy arguments most of the time.
As for ITF:
I am not against an adjustment.but i am a minority in this among GFs.ITF should have a hard cap.Cause as you said,I agree,in the future with more gear introduction ,GFs can get their defense higher=more bonus.This will make hard to balance the content in pve aswell.But as said the 90% of Gfs will n ot accept.
Sharp:
At the moment you tried to solo you were with out defensive boons.or were small.Try now that you are in Win /Booze.
And because you did not explore the possibility of a CW going full defensive means that does not exist?I use the same argument you used against DPS GFs.
And i am not talking exclusively for Cws.There are tanky Sws.And when HR combat path gets a boost...You will see waht i mean super tanky DPs classes.
Ryu:
I agree with wrathfull warrior feat change.
I agree with Shield wrath change.Actually i will go over it.It should be reworked completely.it is of small use in pve and is mostly used by PVp Gfs.
i would propose to change it completely to something else.Giving movement speed? A utility stat.Something like this in line.
I disagree with combat superiority change.It is a power used universally by all paths Of GF.it will hurt the pve Gfs the most.
They need that damage.And it is a feature feated by only the conq tree deep in t4 feat.i think it is fine.
Double mark bonus needs to go aswell.(But GWFs will not agree here )
And of course an ITF ...rework,slight change.
^^^^^^^^^^^
I think these changes will reduce GF damage in pvp by at least 25% and reach in circumstances up to 48% max.
At least for IVs.
if these don't work, Bull could get a slight damage decrease .
A proud member of "mythical horde of DPS GFs"
1). Is SW more dps or tank based?
2). Yes. I am panzer!
3). Get ACT if you want to celebrate your epeen.
4). Horniness will not stand between me and what I believe - "MM"
The dps is just too good and tanking itself is becoming less and less useful, similar to how it was in mod 5, so it's not a big loss anyway... Seems like Knight's Challenge is the source of all trouble here.
There's no need to touch ITF at all imho if the double damage from Knight's Challenge goes away.