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Idea to improve Tetryon Weapons
doctorstegi
Member Posts: 1,189 Arc User
After seeing the new Tholian Set I got an idea how we can make potentially Tetryon and even Polaron better weapons. Instead of making the shield proc based on drainx maybe give them a good chunk of shield proc without the need for drainx. Same goes for polaron with the subsystem drain. Compared to other weapons Tetryon is in the bottom of the barrel. I used to love it back in the day with the 2 piece Omega Set for Tetryon Glider to strip shields pretty fast but honestly I haven't touched Tetryon in years. Even if my idea is not that great we need to do something about Tetryon weapons...
C-Store Inc. is still looking for active members on the fed side. If you don't have a fleet feel free to contact me in game @stegi.
Post edited by baddmoonrizin on
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Now with that in mind, tetryon is only "bottom of the barrel" if one gives a flip about whatever the flavor of the month "meta" is. All the energy types are within a few percentage points of each other and all of them are viable choices, including tetryon. The biggest thing that needs to happen aside from removing omni restrictions is that the energy types other than phaser and disruptor need to see more support options than they have now. It's rather sad at time how little support some of the other energy types actually get compared to those 2.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I do agree that this restriction is unnecessary. However this thread is really about the weapons type we have the King Phaser and Disruptor and on the bottom Tetryon. They need to bring them up on par somehow because I would love to use Tetryon but I refuse to use it in the current state it is in. It is just not a fun weapons type. Even for shield stripping you are better off with Phaser aka Quantum Phase Set...
As for tetryon as a whole, the biggest problem it has is a relative lack of boosting options. Most of the current boosts are locked behind very specific and niche sets.. and the trend appears to be continuing. Part of the reason for phaser dominance is the sheer amount of universal consoles that have innate +phaser damage on them. Even Polaron has easy access to a number of very good universal reputation consoles for easy enhancement.
The other issue is the overall lack of variety. There aren't a lot of procs to choose from, and the default ones are objectively mediocre. If anything, their proc should scale extremely aggressively with DrainX, considering how rarely they happen. The few mildly interesting flavors of Tetryon are also very difficult to get a hold of because of their rarity(Hirogen and Tzenkethi are both from old lockboxs).
This. If the devs say we're never going to get a way to unify beam colors, could they not intentionally use mismatched colors for new sets just to torment us?
New colors for lockbox or rep box or "advanced" beams where we can equip a full set is a good thing since it gives us new choices. New colors for a one-of-a-kind beam with a hard limit of 1 per ship just ruins the day for people who don't want to "taste the rainbow."
...and this, since then we can at least skip the off-color beams and have matched rear set of plain omnis.
The procs still differentiate the weapon types. Your not wrong a gold Tet isn't going to do any less dmg then a Phaser Tet.... accept for all the extra Phaser gear in game.
Your idea of unlocking omnis. Doesn't help tet or polaron all it does is ensure people run phasers even more. Cause now they would just double up the multiple good set options for those. Phaser and disruptor in are in a good place due to reputation options. Its having access to Discovery, Terran reps. As well as the mission gear sets for both.
You want to even everything up then even it up. Here is the real fix.
Add reputation Tier 7. (don't make it an insane 2 month grind... a couple weeks past t6 or something would be acceptable) at T7 add EVERY weapon type for every set. Disco set in Tet, Lukari set in phaser. Unlock it all.
Mission sets. Take every mission set in the game, add them to the phoenix store. One purple token for all the games mission pieces, but add every single energy weapon type versions. You want a Tetryon Martok beams.... one purple phoenix. Don't feel like running the same mission for the 100th time to claim a Torment engine, one purple token.
This would be a dill sink, an ongoing use for phoenix tokens. And it would also equalize all weapon types. If they want to go all in on the idea, do the same with the lobi store. Add a alternate energy dmg buff for every lobi set as well... edit the set bonuses when they are damage type specific to +all energy dmg. Go full Barbie on dmg type.
Copy and Paste is the one thing Cryptic is good at.
It would be nice to see a plasma mission set. I like the altamid set... it is lobi though.
I don't mind different colors for weapons types look at how Plasma Torpedoes are Greenish Cyan color when in the shows at least in both TOS and SNW the Romulan Plasma torpedoes are depicted as Red.
Plasma is unique to STO, outside of STO you don't see Romulans use it much outside of torpedoes.
Ah... but the T5 T'varo comes with a console that fires the big, red meatball.
Point still stands, even with all the extra gear there is still only a few percentage points between the energy types. The only time it matters is if you're trying to squeeze every last one and zero from the item.
As to the omni unlocking, that's where you're wrong. First on that point, people that are going to run what they're going to run regardless. Removing the omni restriction on its own won't make up for certain energy types having less support than others, but it WILL however open up options that didn't exist before. For Polaron as the prime example, it allows you to utilize the morphogenic omni, chronometric, and inhibiting omni sets at once should you choose. For tetryon it allows you to call on the antichroniton set, this new set, diffusive, and toss the competitive tetryon omni into the mix should you choose. It's ridiculous that we can have builds that are all turrets but omnis are restricted. As is right now for polaron I can have the chronometric turret and morphogenic omni but I can't have the chronometric omni and morphogenic at once, which is just plain dumb. It's not stopping me from using the sets, it's just forcing me to use a different weapon.
Now where you are absolutely correct is that there also needs to be more items that boost tetryon and polaron. This isn't just a one and done thing, but both need to be done.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
Yes and no. Back in the 80s or thereabouts Paramount told FASA (and anyone else who asked) that Romulans used beam weapons "related to phasers and disruptors but based on the same technology as their plasma torpedoes". Various games and tech manuals interpreted it various ways, calling them "plasma bomb-pumped phasers", X-ray or Gamma-ray (the rays produced by M/aM reactions) phasers, ect. FASA gave up trying to pin it down and just called them "Romulan Beam Weapons" or RBMs.
To me that sounds like they are primarily nadion weapons like phasers and disruptors (and probably most of the others) but with a different "flavor" of energy riding along using the nadions as a carrier because of the way it is generated, like the various X-infused-Y weapons in the game but with a unique name of its own like phasers and disrupters have instead of calling them all "nadion weapons".
That could also be why in TNG they usually called what the Romulans fired "disrupters" but sometimes called "phasers" instead (though there really isn't anything that would keep them from mixing weapons in their loadout either).
As for improving tetryon (and other weapons), I would not go as far as making all reputation weapons all of the energies, but rather make sure all the weapon types are represented, especially for the sets. It is extremely annoying finding the ideal energy for a particular theme/synergy/whatever only to find that it does not come in the weapon type needed. I have a lot of ships that mix beams and cannons because of the arbitrary way the sets are set up for instance.
Also, in a vaguely related issue, increasing the proc % for single cannons (and possibly DBBs) would probably help those weapon-type underdogs out since they never adjusted the percentages to account for the change from per-shot to per-cycle checks.
Nothing wrong with Tetryons, they are really effective weapons on a Sci build, same with Polaron and Phased Polaron/Polarised Disruptors, etc. Removing drain as the effector for the drain effect is just a terrible idea. Might as well dump Drain as a skill.
I would argue that position because of the Plasma Proc and ways to support that DOT and the absolutely overpowered Altamid Lobi set. Plasma right now is in a way better shape and form then Tetryon. Also the Viridian Plasma with the 30% haste chance are something else too specially for certain builds. Not to say there is like a 1000 Lobi Sets which support plasma one way or the other.
Though what does bug me with Plasma is the 2 different console supports you need for Plasma Torpedoes and Plasma Energy Weapons. That should be supported by the a single type console in my eyes. But after all these years I'm not getting my hopes up that that will ever change.
That is completely nonsense. Drain as console for science skills is fine. There is a reason behind why I say that. Quantum Phase Set outperforms anything Tetryon in drain without drainx consoles. So if I have to waste several console spots for drainx just to get to a noticeable amount of drain with Tetryon will weaken my overall performance because I'm unable to use those spots for good weapons enhancing consoles.
Also that was just a suggestion, maybe not the best you can also make the drainx consoles more effective so that the tetryon proc works better. In terms of shield drain tetryon ain't that what it used to be in past.
I don't think we disagree much in general. I don't think it would be a big deal to unlock the omni restriction. I think my point still stands though right now 90% of people shoot phasers. (a guess sure but its in that rage) Unlocking wouldn't change that. If anything it just increases the number of people running phasers and disruptors.
As for why can we run a full ship of turrets. That should be plainly obvious. Because turrets suck. They actually got a reduction in dmg for their 360 degree field. A turret does a fraction of what a single cannon does, which does a fraction of what a DC does. Omni beams do essentially the same dmg as a single array, save for having to have a [arc] mod. Which still provides the mod dmg buff just can't slot an extra crtd or whatever.
If they where going to fix Omnis to have a proper 68% of single array damage from the go... then sure allow a full ship load of them. A MK XV white turret does 462 DPS. A MK XV white single cannon does 616 DPS. (Dual Cannon 886 DPS)
I have an All-Turret Ship on an Alt. It's a Galaxy-X. Eight in Weapon Slots and a couple of Console Turrets like the Automated Defense one. It uses Tetryons except for the Consoles and their fixed elements. It's not a powerful ship, but it is pretty fun flying around machinegunning everything in sight.
When I refer to support, I mean consoles and sets, not procs.
Tetryon has more widely available sets that support that damage type. Same with some consoles. Plasma is not quite so lucky. Hell, the recent Mirror Nebula comes with a console that not only augments Tetryon, but DOES Tetryon damage. In terms of more widely available sets... Plasma really only has the Bajor Defense set. Tetryon has the Nukara set, the Krenim Temporal Manipulation set...
There are more things that synergize with Tetryon than there are Plasma.
As for the Plasma Torpedo/Plasma Energy consoles... that's probably a result of game balance as Plasma Torpedoes are NOT directed energy like Plasma Beams or Cannons. If you only needed one console for both... Plasma builds might be a bit overpowered because you're augmenting both energy weapons AND torpedoes in one go, meaning you don't have to sacrifice any Tac slots to buff your torps if you're running Plasma. Also Plasma torpedoes still deal Kinetic damage, its just that they also leave plasma burn. They aren't doing DIRECT Plasma enegy damage like, say the Agony Phaser Torpedo dealing Phaser damage instead of kinetic.
It would be nice, but I doubt it considering the dev comments lately about not wanting to narrow choices by having too many things locked into sets.
Quantum phase does that because it not only has TWO procs to begin with, it also has a very nice drain console specifically tailored for it, and its set bonuses are particularly good at enhancing the drain effect which is like having yet another full drain phantom-console or two. It does not need extra drainx consoles (though it does not hurt to have them), it has the equivalent of at least two already built in.
Non-set tetryon does not have any of that built in drainx support, and even the very few tetryon sets tend to have a more generic boost structure rather than doubling down on drain itself the way Quantum Phase Catalysts does. The Nukara set even has +AP damage which is useless if all the weapons on the ship are tetryon (which of course they should be).
It is not a fault in the tetryon energy, it is just that the one particular drain-based phaser set has such a great synergy all by itself. Also, needing drainx consoles for the tetryon sets is at least partially mitigated by the genericity of their consoles/set bonuses which supply weapon damage and crit and thereby lessen the need for those types enough that one or two given up for the drainx console(s) is not that bad overall.
There is a very good (and relatively inexpensive) drainx times two console from one of the fleet stores that is great for making tetryon a good energy choice. And, like polaron, tetryon is mainly a science weapon energy so the ships running it should have fairly good drainx anyway to support the science skills/abilities.
Relaxing the Omni restrictions to allow ANY two (or better yet three) omnis instead of only one set omni and one crafted one would also go a long way since a lot of people do not want to mix beams and cannons and all of the tetryon sets seem to have omnis/cannons (in fact, those two types are the ONLY weapons in the Krenim Temporal Manipulation set) which narrows choice in running two sets at once. or keeping a forward-focused ship (like a 5/3), all beam considerably.
Phaser and Antiproton torps can be obtained from the Phoenix Pack; Disruptor and Polaron Torps are mission rewards; thus, they only cost time.
There IS one advantage with syngergy with the Nukara set.
It doesn't have a Warp Core.
I actually run the full Nukara set with the Temporal Manipulation set because the Nukara doesn't have a core I need to sacrifice.
With Plasma, there is a relatively easy and efficient boosting process with the excellent Lukari console/2-set and the ('for stats only') Plasma Wave Universal console. Unfortunately, while they do have several other individual consoles to boost plasma, they're typically restricted to expensive lockbox ships(dhailkhina, borg juggy, courier). Set support is pretty awful, but honestly about on par with Tetryon in terms of having ship exclusivity.
Tetryon, on the other hand, is generally worse value per slot and requires dipping into (a lot of )lobi and event-limited gear instead of lockbox ships. Tetryon set stuff requires a pretty awful franken-build with a limited scope to get even close to damage parity. You're basically locked to beams and overall mediocre equipment to really get the most out of tetryon.
Thing is I'm not trying to change what people run because as I said prior, people are going to run what they're going to run regardless at the end of the day. People that like phaser are going to run phaser and people who like disruptor are going to run disruptor and so on. The point of unlocking the omnis isn't to get people to switch from phaser and disruptor to something else, but to give more access to already existing options while we wait for new options to be added. If someone is bent on running phaser or disruptor, I highly doubt there's anything much you or I could say to convince them to switch. A key reason alot of folks run phaser and disruptor right now is they're heavily used on the shows, and also the support behind them. Opening up the omnis gives better access to already existing support. If some people switch energy types as a result then more power to them, however that was never the point behind it. The point was to make better use of already existing support.
Strongly disagree about them being bad. An all turret ship can easily crank well over 250k. In fact I've been in runs with an all turrets build running well over 375k. The only weapons that really suck right now are tricobalts and that's because of the absurdly long cooldown on them. Having lower initial damage doesn't make the weapon useless by any means or automatically mean it sucks. In this game it's about 20% setup and the other 80% is the piloting. Does equipment and setup matter, yes it does. However people over-estimate the effect of it.
In terms of damage potential you're correct that the curve of turret vs cannon is not the same as omni beam vs beam array, because they're not supposed to be. cannons and especially dual and dual heavy are designed to be some of the hardest if not the hardest hitting weapons in game based on just pure firepower of the weapon itself. All of this discounting buffs that could alter the outcome such as boff powers, traits and so on. I took a look at some numbers in game and did a little math.
In the dilithium store I could get an andorian single cannon mk xi very rare and turret mk xi very rare. the turret out of the box was showing me 162 per shot and the cannon 268 per shot in the window. The turret is doing roughly 60% of the damage the single cannon is doing. Now I also compared an omni to a beam array and used my chronometric polaron set for comparison. The beam array was sitting 672 at mk xv gold and the omni was at 571 mk xv gold. Now that's roughly 85% the damage of a normal beam array because there's only a 360 degree targeting arc difference and the arc mod. Now if you compare an omni to a dual bank, which is the closest beam type to a single cannon, you get a different result. I compared a mk xv crafted polaron omni dmgx3 to a fleet polaron dual bank mk xv dmgx3 and the dual bank sat 870 with the omni at 670. This means the omni was doing 77% of the damage of that dual bank. While it's not entirely the same, you're looking at almost a 25% difference in damage there, which is comparable to a turret vs single cannon. Is it the same spread, no its not and I've acknowledged as such. However that's still a significant difference.
Keep in mind as well that turrets don't have an arc mod to do what they do and can be slapped on a ship right away. Omnis DO have an arc mod and assuming one wished to run 8 omnis on a ship, you're leaving 8 mods worth of dmg or crtd on the table which is significant and is 2 full beams worth of mods. Personally I don't buy the notion that everyone will suddenly start running omnis for the same exact reason that people don't run all turrets, you're leaving damage on the table you could otherwise be getting. The difference between an omni and an array or omni and a dual bank doesn't need to be made the same as a turret vs single cannon or dual cannon before they remove the restriction, they just need to remove the restriction. Again I am not trying to get people to switch weapon types as I could care less what people use so long as they're pulling their weight in a run. What I am trying to do however is get more options opened up for Tetryon, and by extension all weapons.
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
All weapons types have easy access to omni through the crafting system. You can find those omni beams on the exchange or craft them yourself.
You make my point for me though. Either make it a better proc raise the amount of shield energy taken or completely take the drain out of that standard tetryon beam proc. It needs to be viable. I choose the quantum phase set over 8 x tetryon weapons because its easy and doesn't take nearly as much drain to drop the enemies shields. On top of that phaser is the best supported weapon type in the game and I can use 6 phaser weapons with the Quantum Phase Set. By the end it results in me not touching Tetryon because the proc is to weak, I need way to many drainx consoles to make it viable and would take to much of my damage and other things I use consoles for. Either way the proc is to weak to even consider the weapon as long as the Quantum Phase set is around.
Well Proc of the weapon and how it works is the major point I'm making though. Plasma > Tetryon by a margin and yes I agree there is more easy obtainable tetryon consoles and stuff but then look at the Lobi Store and Plasma outshines Tetryon with their sets and possibilities. I see where you coming from but there is right now no reason to use tetryon if for example you use the Quantum Phase Phaser Set. You get way more shield drain out of it and way easier plus you can use phaser which has all the bells and whistles.
How does an oddball outlier like the Quantum Phase set in any way prove that tetryon is inherently inferior? Yes, you need something like a Drainx2 fleet console to match the extremely high set drain bonuses the Quantum Phase set has, but dedicating a console slot or two to that fleet drainx console puts the Quantum Phase set and the tetryon sets at more or less the same footing DEW wise.
For the most part, all that is happening is that you are essentially just trading where the drainx is located since the tetryon sets generally have the damage/crit/etc. mods that would go into that "lost" slot in the set bonuses and console attributes instead of the drainx the Quantum Phase set has. I have a tetryon-based ship with one of those fleet consoles that tears down the facing shield (and damages the others to varying degrees) of large ships with one volley easily enough, better performance than the Quantum Phase set I have on another ship for instance.
There is one glaring omission from the tetryon sets compared to the Quantum Phase set though, and that is a drain torpedo of any kind, though the logic there seems to be that the energy weapons would knock down the shields and the torpedoes or mines would do the actual killing with burst kinetic damage.
I do agree though that tetryon could use some work, for one thing there is hardly any choice in tetryon additional procs, the only one that is worse in that respect is proton.