Real Life Starfleet Starting?

crimsonlena · August 2018

So Im curious what other Star Trek fans think about this, it looks like the whole "US Space Force" thing is real, and being actively planned.

https://www.space.com/41427-trump-space-force-military-plan-revealed.html

It sounds kinda like a MACO'ized Starfleet, but maybe they'll realize, it'll save more money in the long run to roll NASA up into this, so it is more Starfleet and less Space Marines.

theraven2378 · August 2018

Something I'd sign up for, get away from the problems on Earth and see something new and crazy.

jonsills · August 2018

It's a scam - Trump thinks he can forge a legacy by creating a new branch of the US Military out of whole cloth (which incidentally he can't; that's reserved by law to Congress, and given the levels of mockery it's already attracted that's not something that's going to happen in a year when every single seat in the House of Representatives is up for election). This would be a branch of the military with no mission - we don't do "warfighting" in space, pursuant to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, to which the US is signatory - and with no craft (at least the Air Force had the personnel and equipment of the Army Air Corps to work with when they started).

If it were instituted, it would have more in common with the Space Marines of Aliens or the forces in that horrendous movie Starship Troopers than with any version of Starfleet, or even the UESPA Star Fleet. Perhaps something like the Terran Empire fleet...

crimsonlena · August 2018

I've been thinking about this, and as much as a Space Force seems like it would be cool, i think they are jumping the gun here. Starfleet, Space Marines, any of them, don't make much sense unless we have the tech to support it, like even just simple Impulse Patrol Craft or something, that can realistically fly around the Solar System.

Your right, they have no mission, I mean, i doubt there are aliens up there for "Military Astronauts" to fight, and unless NASA becomes a part of this, it seems very unlikely they would have Scientific Missions.

artan42 · August 2018

Umm, it's a military branch. Starfleet's not a military.

sevenofnine13141 · August 2018

Technically, Starfleet is a military, just not called one nor stated to be one on paper, but since it acted as the fighting force of the Federation... It is technically a military. OFFICIALLY, it isn't. Originally, under the United Earth Government prior to the formation of the Federation, the de facto and de jure military was the Military Assault Command Operations or MACO for short, but MACO was disbanded shortly after the formation of the Federation. Also... We didn't see any mention of a "Federation Military" anywhere in Star Trek, so...

Anyway. On topic. While the POTUS and VPOTUS and the USM are kinda jumping the gun here... It does make sense for a military to have a separate branch specifically created for the purpose of operating in space, especially once we get starships good enough for operating in space with a full dedicated crew, but this is kinda decades away. Hence they're kinda jumping the gun here.

ryan218 · August 2018

There is actually a case for the 'space force'. The US, like many nations, operates a network of spy-- I mean reconnaisance-- satellites in orbit. At present, these satellites fall under the jurisdiction of the USAF Space Command. On top of this you have the fact that nations such as China have demonstrated the ability to shoot down such satellites, and the US will want to achieve a similar capability in the event of hostilities. I wouldn't be the least surprised if the Missile Defence Agency gets parcelled in as well.

The point isn't to put US forces in space, but to project US military power into space. The thing is that most of these roles are already covered by the USAF Space Command, and it's debatable as to whether anything would be gained by splitting it off into it's own branch: yes, a seperate force means Congress could focus funds towards the US's space-based capabilities, but it also means they can redirect funds away from it more readily than they can while it's under the USAF's umbrella.

angrytarg · August 2018

jonsills wrote: »

It's a scam - Trump thinks he can forge a legacy by creating a new branch of the US Military out of whole cloth (which incidentally he can't; that's reserved by law to Congress, and given the levels of mockery it's already attracted that's not something that's going to happen in a year when every single seat in the House of Representatives is up for election). This would be a branch of the military with no mission - we don't do "warfighting" in space, pursuant to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, to which the US is signatory - and with no craft (at least the Air Force had the personnel and equipment of the Army Air Corps to work with when they started).

If it were instituted, it would have more in common with the Space Marines of Aliens or the forces in that horrendous movie Starship Troopers than with any version of Starfleet, or even the UESPA Star Fleet. Perhaps something like the Terran Empire fleet...

Yeah, this would be my take as well. Nothing Trump does is meant to have any long-term effects. This is just another PR stunt which seems to backfire. I mean his base elected him to GTFO of other countries, now he tells them to go into SPACE?

mustrumridcully0 · August 2018

It really sounds like a horrible idiotic and useless idea that only serves to make oneself seem important or distract from actually important topics. Or both.

We already have the beginning of the real life Starfleet with organizations like the ESA or NASA.

jonsills · August 2018

Missile Defence Agency? You mean the US Strategic Command, formerly USAF's Strategic Air Command? (USSTRATCOM is in charge of all the long-range strategic weapons systems, from ICBMs to SLBMs to bombers; we used to coordinate those under the Joint Strategic Target Planning Staff, or JSTPS, but I guess the bureaucrats got tired of having to dual-list most of HQ SAC. Even I, a lowly Senior Airman, was dually assigned to HQ SAC/XOXPC and JSTPS/JPPPC.)

Point is, we've already got a unified command responsible for nuclear defense. And we had one for space, but the US Space Command was reduced to USAF Space Command because it's traditional to only have seven major commands and US Cyber Command was coming online. So this "Space Force" not only lacks hardware, it lacks a mission, as everything it would do is already being done, and better, by existing forces.

I might concede the necessity for such a force if we were being threatened by extraterrestrials, but thus far we have yet to confirm the existence of bacterial life on any other planets, much less hostile, technologically-advanced macrofauna.

ryan218 · August 2018

jonsills wrote: »

Missile Defence Agency? You mean the US Strategic Command, formerly USAF's Strategic Air Command? (USSTRATCOM is in charge of all the long-range strategic weapons systems, from ICBMs to SLBMs to bombers; we used to coordinate those under the Joint Strategic Target Planning Staff, or JSTPS, but I guess the bureaucrats got tired of having to dual-list most of HQ SAC. Even I, a lowly Senior Airman, was dually assigned to HQ SAC/XOXPC and JSTPS/JPPPC.)

Point is, we've already got a unified command responsible for nuclear defense. And we had one for space, but the US Space Command was reduced to USAF Space Command because it's traditional to only have seven major commands and US Cyber Command was coming online. So this "Space Force" not only lacks hardware, it lacks a mission, as everything it would do is already being done, and better, by existing forces.

I might concede the necessity for such a force if we were being threatened by extraterrestrials, but thus far we have yet to confirm the existence of bacterial life on any other planets, much less hostile, technologically-advanced macrofauna.

The MDA is what used to be called the Strategic Defence Initiative (or 'Star Wars'), then the Ballistic Missile Defence Organisation under Clinton, being renamed the MDA under Bush in 2002. They're responsible for the development of interceptor missile systems, among other things relating to defence against missile attack.

It turns out what I was actually thinking off was the Ground-Based Midcourse Defence (GMD) system, based in Alaska, which is under the US Army's jurisdiction from what I can tell (which in itself seems odd, given such a system in the UK would be handed to the RAF given it is air defence).

artan42 · August 2018

sevenofnine13141 wrote: »

Technically, Starfleet is a military, just not called one nor stated to be one on paper, but since it acted as the fighting force of the Federation... It is technically a military. OFFICIALLY, it isn't. Originally, under the United Earth Government prior to the formation of the Federation, the de facto and de jure military was the Military Assault Command Operations or MACO for short, but MACO was disbanded shortly after the formation of the Federation. Also... We didn't see any mention of a "Federation Military" anywhere in Star Trek, so...

Technically it's still not a military. It's just a bunch of people working for the Federation who happen to be very heavily armed as a natural part of their job. As The Federation was shortsighted enough to scrap it's military its defence is left to the largest organisation with guns.

angrytarg wrote: »

jonsills wrote: »

It's a scam - Trump thinks he can forge a legacy by creating a new branch of the US Military out of whole cloth (which incidentally he can't; that's reserved by law to Congress, and given the levels of mockery it's already attracted that's not something that's going to happen in a year when every single seat in the House of Representatives is up for election). This would be a branch of the military with no mission - we don't do "warfighting" in space, pursuant to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, to which the US is signatory - and with no craft (at least the Air Force had the personnel and equipment of the Army Air Corps to work with when they started).

If it were instituted, it would have more in common with the Space Marines of Aliens or the forces in that horrendous movie Starship Troopers than with any version of Starfleet, or even the UESPA Star Fleet. Perhaps something like the Terran Empire fleet...

Yeah, this would be my take as well. Nothing Trump does is meant to have any long-term effects. This is just another PR stunt which seems to backfire. I mean his base elected him to GTFO of other countries, now he tells them to go into SPACE?

Nonsense. There's going to be a 'yuge wall space force and the Martians are going to pay for it.

Who exactly does Trump think his Space Force will be fighting. I was under the impression all high up fighty stuff was done by the US Air Force and he does have a lot of little tubes filled with bits of hydrogen with various numbers of neutrons as well as plenty of aeroplanes, both of which have stopped an invasion of the US by any serious military assault since the English burnt the White House down in 1814 and blamed the Canadians.

Who does he think is attacking from space? China would do it conventionally, Russia would do it through cyberspace, NK would drop a bomb on their own heads, Iran is tied up fighting KSA (America's meat puppet in the ME), and Canada would just sneek in the back way and burn the White House down again on land.

And the Mothership doesn't want him back.

jonsills · August 2018

artan42 wrote: »

There's going to be a 'yuge wall space force and the Martians are going to pay for it.

Turns out there already is a Space Wall - of sorts - and it already has Space Tunnels in it, too.

artan42 · August 2018

jonsills wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

There's going to be a 'yuge wall space force and the Martians are going to pay for it.

Turns out there already is a Space Wall - of sorts - and it already has Space Tunnels in it, too.

Bloody local group galaxies. Sneaking through tunnels of different density taking hydrogen from our own galaxy.

Well guess what? The wall just got colder and denser!

rattler2 · August 2018

artan42 wrote: »

And the Mothership doesn't want him back.

TAKE HIM! PLEASE!

tunebreaker · August 2018

LOL, you Americans are silly. One side for wasting taxpayer money on something that seems so ridiculously outlandish, the other side because "Trump initiated it, so it must be bad - no exceptions".

Anyhow, what happened to the "forums is not a place for politics"?

Oh, and Starfleet was very much the military organization of the Federation. You can call it any names you want, and make a claim that it had other functions besides what we know today as "military functions", but one of it's main tasks nevertheless was guaranteeing the safety of it's citizens and integrity of it's territory, using deadly force if necessary. Can't really get any more "military" than that.

majorcharvenak · August 2018

jonsills wrote: »

It's a scam - Trump thinks he can forge a legacy by creating a new branch of the US Military out of whole cloth (which incidentally he can't; that's reserved by law to Congress, and given the levels of mockery it's already attracted that's not something that's going to happen in a year when every single seat in the House of Representatives is up for election). This would be a branch of the military with no mission - we don't do "warfighting" in space, pursuant to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, to which the US is signatory - and with no craft (at least the Air Force had the personnel and equipment of the Army Air Corps to work with when they started).

If it were instituted, it would have more in common with the Space Marines of Aliens or the forces in that horrendous movie Starship Troopers than with any version of Starfleet, or even the UESPA Star Fleet. Perhaps something like the Terran Empire fleet...

You sir, are on point. All of the missions of a 'Department of the Space Force' are currently covered by the Air Force. I suspect that some of the big-whigs in the AF space community were tired of having to fight budget battles for systems acquistion, development and fielding with the rest of the AF and got tagged by the 'Good Idea Fairy', and whispered said idea into a few receptive ears. Even if we were to field some kind of starships, I suspect near term they'd be staffed similar to how the did it in Stargate - with USAF personnel. My two ec.

rattler2 · August 2018

Ok I'm done.

angrytarg · August 2018

artan42 wrote: »

Who exactly does Trump think his Space Force will be fighting.(...)

Brain slugs? Though he seems not the most competent being to protect us from those.

ashstorm1 · August 2018

rattler2 wrote: »

Ok I'm done.

Spot-on. 'nuff said.

theanothername · August 2018

Would that not require a united earth government first?

artan42 · August 2018

tunebreaker wrote: »

Oh, and Starfleet was very much the military organization of the Federation. You can call it any names you want, and make a claim that it had other functions besides what we know today as "military functions", but one of it's main tasks nevertheless was guaranteeing the safety of it's citizens and integrity of it's territory, using deadly force if necessary. Can't really get any more "military" than that.

No it isn't. The Federation explicitly disbanded their military (the MACO) at formation.
Starfleet is an exploration and research organisation that has to plug the gap by virtue of being very heavily armed and the Federation having no other option.

angrytarg wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

Who exactly does Trump think his Space Force will be fighting.(...)

Brain slugs? Though he seems not the most competent being to protect us from those.

The brain slugs have already won Targ.

tunebreaker · August 2018

artan42 wrote: »

No it isn't. The Federation explicitly disbanded their military (the MACO) at formation.
Starfleet is an exploration and research organisation that has to plug the gap by virtue of being very heavily armed and the Federation having no other option.

A rose by any other name...

artan42 · August 2018

tunebreaker wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

No it isn't. The Federation explicitly disbanded their military (the MACO) at formation.
Starfleet is an exploration and research organisation that has to plug the gap by virtue of being very heavily armed and the Federation having no other option.

A rose by any other name...

Is poetry not legality.

tunebreaker · August 2018

artan42 wrote: »

tunebreaker wrote: »

artan42 wrote: »

No it isn't. The Federation explicitly disbanded their military (the MACO) at formation.
Starfleet is an exploration and research organisation that has to plug the gap by virtue of being very heavily armed and the Federation having no other option.

A rose by any other name...

Is poetry not legality.

Oh, so you want to bring legality into it?
Starfleet Technical Manual describes it to be "armed peacekeeping force". Since there has never been any definite statement on screen that would state otherwise (your pretty quote list in signature doesn't count, none of them were shown to be any sort of legal experts), this is the closest thing we have to canon. What we see on screen, however, is constantly people not belonging into Starfleet referred to as "civilians".

To give you a real life example, Japanese post-WW2 constitution forbids them to have any sort of military. However, what do you think JSDF is? A leisure camp that just casually arms it's members? Just because they don't legally call it "military" doesn't change it's core function.
Same thing with Starfleet. You need to have some serious mental gymnastics going on if you're going to say that "military" and "armed peacekeeping force" are technically not the same thing.

lordrezeon · August 2018

Considering how reliant America is on satellite communications and services it makes sense to want to defend those assets. China has demonstrated its ability to destroy satellites, so it isn't some far flung idea that American satellites would be targeted in the future.

If a war broke out between the USA and any modernized nation the first thing to go would be the spy satellites, GPS satellites, and communication satellites. Worst case is that once a few have been destroyed it would domino into a chain reaction of debris taking out all the other satellites and eventually turning low earth orbit into a no mans land where no craft could safely travel.

There have also been several experimental craft tested in space in recent years, so the hardware to operate up there might not be as far off as you might think.

These types of things are currently under the purview of the US Air Force, but once upon a time the Air Force was part of the Army. Priorities change and organizations must eventually change with the world around them. That said, in this political climate it will never get off the ground.

angrytarg · August 2018

The UFP is a idealized version of the UN. Starfleet is a idealized version of the UN Peacekeepers regarding it's military role, which they provide out of necessity and opportunity since the majority of material the UFP has are used for Starfleet to explore and secure space. It is a core element of Star Trek that this function was not meant to be performed by a military organization. No matter what feelings this hurts for one individually, for the Trekverse this is a fact as the circumstance is the plot of an entire movie where former militaries did not adapt to Starfleet's organization and functions and snapped. This is what happened, no matter how you bent your brain to find alternative interpretations of what happened, this is the plot. It is really not difficult nor a really big deal, if you want military sci-fi there is oh plenty of things to choose from. But no matter your personal opinion, the source material is very, very clear in this regard.

tunebreaker · August 2018

angrytarg wrote: »

The UFP is a idealized version of the UN. Starfleet is a idealized version of the UN Peacekeepers regarding it's military role, which they provide out of necessity and opportunity since the majority of material the UFP has are used for Starfleet to explore and secure space. It is a core element of Star Trek that this function was not meant to be performed by a military organization. No matter what feelings this hurts for one individually, for the Trekverse this is a fact as the circumstance is the plot of an entire movie where former militaries did not adapt to Starfleet's organization and functions and snapped. This is what happened, no matter how you bent your brain to find alternative interpretations of what happened, this is the plot. It is really not difficult nor a really big deal, if you want military sci-fi there is oh plenty of things to choose from. But no matter your personal opinion, the source material is very, very clear in this regard.

Plot of Beyond is totally irrelevant in this context. Edison felt Starfleet weren't ruthless enough, fair enough. At best, this is comparable to a former Wehrmacht soldier who was instated into Bundeswehr. Bundeswehr is certainly "softer", still doesn't change the fact that it's military.

And no matter how you bend your brain to explain why Starfleet isn't a military, the fact remains that no matter what you want call it, during most part of Star Trek universe history, Starfleet has been a "professional organization formally authorized by a sovereign state to use lethal or deadly force and weapons to support the interests of the state", with one of it's main tasks being "defence of the state, and its citizens, and the prosecution of war against another state." (quotes gotten from Wikipedia)

Yes, they had other tasks, obviously, and they are the research and exploration organization of UFP, but for all intents and purposes, they will also remain the military organization of post-ENT UFP.

angrytarg · August 2018

It fulfills the role of THE military, but isn't A military. This distinction is very important to the source material and brushing it over because one doesn't like it or the concept is too hard to grasp doesn't make it go away.

tunebreaker · August 2018

angrytarg wrote: »

It fulfills the role of THE military, but isn't A military. This distinction is very important to the source material and brushing it over because one doesn't like it or the concept is too hard to grasp doesn't make it go away.

De facto they have combat trained armed soldiers and warships. Just because some characters in said source material doesn't like to be called military, and some rabid fans like you are in agreement and don't understand how words and meanings work, doesn't matter at all.
And the distinction you're trying so hard to push really isn't stressed that much on-screen at all, all we see are occasionally some ppl saying "we are peaceful explorers, not a military" (which tends to be followed by an... armed conflict). US military went to Vietnam and said they were "advisors", while having napalm with them. Soviet troops came to Baltics as "liberators", apparently trying to liberate us from sovereignty. You can call something whatever the hell you want, it doesn't change the reality behind the word.

Also, following your own logic, shouldn't we be all absolutely rooting for that Space Force? Doesn't matter what it *actually* is, Trump called it Space Force, therefore it will absolutely be one! (Notice how silly that is?)

mustrumridcully0 · August 2018

tunebreaker wrote: »

angrytarg wrote: »

It fulfills the role of THE military, but isn't A military. This distinction is very important to the source material and brushing it over because one doesn't like it or the concept is too hard to grasp doesn't make it go away.

De facto they have combat trained armed soldiers and warships. Just because some characters in said source material doesn't like to be called military, and some rabid fans like you are in agreement and don't understand how words and meanings work, doesn't matter at all.
And the distinction you're trying so hard to push really isn't stressed that much on-screen at all, all we see are occasionally some ppl saying "we are peaceful explorers, not a military" (which tends to be followed by an... armed conflict). US military went to Vietnam and said they were "advisors", while having napalm with them. Soviet troops came to Baltics as "liberators", apparently trying to liberate us from sovereignty. You can call something whatever the hell you want, it doesn't change the reality behind the word.

Also, following your own logic, shouldn't we be all absolutely rooting for that Space Force? Doesn't matter what it *actually* is, Trump called it Space Force, therefore it will absolutely be one! (Notice how silly that is?)

Well, Star Trek is entirely fiction, so anything it can be whatever the writers say. For now, the space force is also fiction, of course, but the US defense forces and defense interests are real things.

Real Life Starfleet Starting?

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