"Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager, "
I made a mistake when I posted this part. I meant destructible torpedoes, because I only remember voyager shooting it's own torpedo once. Even if they are destructible they should have absurd defense, with only a one percent chance to hit.
They are described as "unstable". Perhaps this is why you can destroy them.
Also note that the weapon used by the Romulans in Balance of Terror travels at WARP SPEED. That torpedo outruns the Enterprise at "maximum emergency reverse warp speed", whatever that is.
Why can't my Destabilized Plasma Torpedo travel at warp speed? My immersion...
It'd be nice if that console's torpedo did plasma over kenetic damage.
The reason Torpedos do more damage to the hull than against shields is pretty easy. You're detonating a warhead against the hull, causing massive damage to an area. Meanwhile Energy Weapons, like beams for example, focus the damage output on a single point.
In terms of melee weapons... its the difference between a rapier and a mace.
Visuals:
Beams (and energy weapons in general):
Torpedos:
BOTH do the job, but one is more spread out than the other.
I'd say look no further than the dominion ship ramming into the odyssey galaxy class to see the devastation of :kinetic damage. No shields stopping that baby.
I'd say look no further than the dominion ship ramming into the odyssey galaxy class to see the devastation of :kinetic damage. No shields stopping that baby.
At the time, Dominion Polaron was able to slice right through Federation shields like they weren't even their either. Took a few encounters before Starfleet could counter that.
> @redvenge said:
> cryptkeeper0 wrote: »
>
> "Destructive torpedoes don't make a lot of since even in universe. As I can't remember very many torpedoes shot down except the one in voyager, "
>
> I made a mistake when I posted this part. I meant destructible torpedoes, because I only remember voyager shooting it's own torpedo once. Even if they are destructible they should have absurd defense, with only a one percent chance to hit.
>
>
>
> The plasma "torpedo" weapon from Balance of Terror is the inspiration for the "heavy" plasma torpedoes in STO:
> http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_torpedo
>
> They are described as "unstable". Perhaps this is why you can destroy them.
>
> Also note that the weapon used by the Romulans in Balance of Terror travels at WARP SPEED. That torpedo outruns the Enterprise at "maximum emergency reverse warp speed", whatever that is.
>
> Why can't my Destabilized Plasma Torpedo travel at warp speed? My immersion...
In TWOK when Khan fires a torpedo at the Enterprise Kirk shouts for Phasers and Spock responds "Too late", so the idea of being able to shoot down torpedoes is established in the franchise, in fact I think they even mentioned that in Balance of Terror... just checked the scene, they did. As the ship is retreating from the plasma, malfunctions on the bridge having disabled the phasers, Sulu says "if we could just get one phaser working, one shot would disperse it".
If that is true why didn't we see it more like when voyager or in first contact shot tons of torpedoes at the Borg they didn't even attempt it. I'm fine with the unstable one being target-able. But I honestly can't think of one on screen moment where they fired and shot down said torpedo.
Maybe it's because star-ship fire rates on energy weapons is far to fast. They limited most of their fire to ships ? other then that If they could do it why didn't the enterprise when they were being attacked by the b'rel BOP in generations ?
Folks lets keep the debate focused on torps as far as the game is concerned and not let this devolve purely into a canon discussion. Drawing examples is fine, but lets try to get back on topic.
"Someone once told me that time was a predator that stalked us all our lives. I rather believe that time is a companion who goes with us on the journey and reminds us to cherish every moment, because it will never come again." - Jean Luc Picard in Star Trek Generations
The reason Torpedos do more damage to the hull than against shields is pretty easy. You're detonating a warhead against the hull, causing massive damage to an area. Meanwhile Energy Weapons, like beams for example, focus the damage output on a single point.
In terms of melee weapons... its the difference between a rapier and a mace.
Visuals:
Beams (and energy weapons in general):
Torpedos:
BOTH do the job, but one is more spread out than the other.
I think the real-world physics to measure the effectiveness of a weapon vs a projected energy barrier (shield) would involve the coherent nature of directed energy weapons vs the incoherent nature of the blast energy released via a warhead detonation.
In-game mechanics has a defined drawback for torps (limited rate of fire, shields negating damage), and the original drawback for energy weapons (energy management) is negated by power management traits + EPS. Furthermore, there are some sources of haste to increase the rate of fire for energy weapons, and energy weapons do not have to worry about their damage being negated against either hull or shields.
I think what needs to be clearly defined are the intended roles for the different weapon categories and types (energy & kinetic, beams & cannons, torps & mines, etc), and how the hybrid "ideal" would translate to the better build performance-wise. Other build combinations would still perform well, with the performance delta between them being much less than what we see now.
The reason Torpedos do more damage to the hull than against shields is pretty easy. You're detonating a warhead against the hull, causing massive damage to an area. Meanwhile Energy Weapons, like beams for example, focus the damage output on a single point.
In terms of melee weapons... its the difference between a rapier and a mace.
Visuals:
Beams (and energy weapons in general):
Torpedos:
BOTH do the job, but one is more spread out than the other.
I think the real-world physics to measure the effectiveness of a weapon vs a projected energy barrier (shield) would involve the coherent nature of directed energy weapons vs the incoherent nature of the blast energy released via a warhead detonation.
In-game mechanics has a defined drawback for torps (limited rate of fire, shields negating damage), and the original drawback for energy weapons (energy management) is negated by power management traits + EPS. Furthermore, there are some sources of haste to increase the rate of fire for energy weapons, and energy weapons do not have to worry about their damage being negated against either hull or shields.
I think what needs to be clearly defined are the intended roles for the different weapon categories and types (energy & kinetic, beams & cannons, torps & mines, etc), and how the hybrid "ideal" would translate to the better build performance-wise. Other build combinations would still perform well, with the performance delta between them being much less than what we see now.
When they decided to make torpedoes not be their own equipment slot, meant that torpedoes had to compete with energy weapons. Since people tend to favor energy weapons in scifi in general. The team as well, as the players have favored their use. This lead to energy weapons getting more attentions from the dev team in the form of duty officers and traits, skills etc.
So the hardest solution may be the best, separating the slots, then balancing torpedoes/mines based on now being on their own dedicated slot. Finding that fine line would be hard how many slots do torpedoes/mines get, how many do each class of ship get.
Then after that you need to make torpedoes more useful for the ones that specialize in their use. One way I suggest is removing many of the stop gap measures like global cooldown, destructible torpedoes( there needs to be a good reason for this, also they need to be faster in general) . Also making the kinetic resist of shields based on power level with only 100+ shield power allowing for the 75% resistance.
This would be a big undertaking, but I wonder if this is the only way to make them useful again. As well as make the dev team more interested in fixing and a balancing them or maybe more aptly be allowed to speed more time with them . Since even energy weapon dependent build would now use them in conjunction. It would also make the colony Tactical consoles better.
As much as I would miss having the possibility 3-5 torpedoes in the fore slot, 2-3 might do just fine. Power-creep would be pretty big though, with all the projectile weapon sets. As well as new sources of damage added to every ship. Though it would be far less then any new better CAT2 damage buff energy weapons get.
Comments
It'd be nice if that console's torpedo did plasma over kenetic damage.
In terms of melee weapons... its the difference between a rapier and a mace.
Visuals:
Beams (and energy weapons in general):
Torpedos:
BOTH do the job, but one is more spread out than the other.
At the time, Dominion Polaron was able to slice right through Federation shields like they weren't even their either. Took a few encounters before Starfleet could counter that.
Maybe it's because star-ship fire rates on energy weapons is far to fast. They limited most of their fire to ships ? other then that If they could do it why didn't the enterprise when they were being attacked by the b'rel BOP in generations ?
Star Trek Online volunteer Community Moderator
I think the real-world physics to measure the effectiveness of a weapon vs a projected energy barrier (shield) would involve the coherent nature of directed energy weapons vs the incoherent nature of the blast energy released via a warhead detonation.
In-game mechanics has a defined drawback for torps (limited rate of fire, shields negating damage), and the original drawback for energy weapons (energy management) is negated by power management traits + EPS. Furthermore, there are some sources of haste to increase the rate of fire for energy weapons, and energy weapons do not have to worry about their damage being negated against either hull or shields.
I think what needs to be clearly defined are the intended roles for the different weapon categories and types (energy & kinetic, beams & cannons, torps & mines, etc), and how the hybrid "ideal" would translate to the better build performance-wise. Other build combinations would still perform well, with the performance delta between them being much less than what we see now.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
When they decided to make torpedoes not be their own equipment slot, meant that torpedoes had to compete with energy weapons. Since people tend to favor energy weapons in scifi in general. The team as well, as the players have favored their use. This lead to energy weapons getting more attentions from the dev team in the form of duty officers and traits, skills etc.
So the hardest solution may be the best, separating the slots, then balancing torpedoes/mines based on now being on their own dedicated slot. Finding that fine line would be hard how many slots do torpedoes/mines get, how many do each class of ship get.
Then after that you need to make torpedoes more useful for the ones that specialize in their use. One way I suggest is removing many of the stop gap measures like global cooldown, destructible torpedoes( there needs to be a good reason for this, also they need to be faster in general) . Also making the kinetic resist of shields based on power level with only 100+ shield power allowing for the 75% resistance.
This would be a big undertaking, but I wonder if this is the only way to make them useful again. As well as make the dev team more interested in fixing and a balancing them or maybe more aptly be allowed to speed more time with them . Since even energy weapon dependent build would now use them in conjunction. It would also make the colony Tactical consoles better.
As much as I would miss having the possibility 3-5 torpedoes in the fore slot, 2-3 might do just fine. Power-creep would be pretty big though, with all the projectile weapon sets. As well as new sources of damage added to every ship. Though it would be far less then any new better CAT2 damage buff energy weapons get.