test content
Logo
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc
Phaser Energy Torpedo and torpedo development in general
darkknightucf
Member Posts: 1,546 Media Corps
With the release of the Phaser Energy Torpedo, does this mean that Cryptic/Borticus will have their "solution" to torpedo mechanics by side-stepping the issues that kinetic weapons deal with and release energy projectiles for each type of energy weapon?
I can see a move like that keeping mechanics, traits, and buff/debuff abilities simple for both Developer and Player:
1. +All Energy will boost those projectiles
2. Pairing the appropriate type of energy buffs with the proper projectile will not be a significant loss of damage vs slotting a kinetic torpedo in the slot (in almost all cases, slotting another energy weapon of that type would be the superior option.)
3. There already exists a multitude of +energy traits, set bonuses, Skill Tree effects, etc, so there would not be a need to create something new to address the existing kinetic torpedoes & mines.
4. No need to invest in re-working mechanics for existing kinetic weapons.
I have my own opinions about the drawbacks (lack of variety of damage types, lack of challenge of dealing with enemy defenses [shields defend against kinetic damage, while different hull types *should* defend against different energy types], limited ceiling on damage range of the energy projectiles, not addressing some fundamental issues that will still affect the energy projectiles, etc), but what are your thoughts?
Also, do you think +Energy Locators/Exploiters should buff the energy projectiles? Do they now? I haven't checked since the release of the AP projectile, and the answer was, 'No', then.
I can see a move like that keeping mechanics, traits, and buff/debuff abilities simple for both Developer and Player:
1. +All Energy will boost those projectiles
2. Pairing the appropriate type of energy buffs with the proper projectile will not be a significant loss of damage vs slotting a kinetic torpedo in the slot (in almost all cases, slotting another energy weapon of that type would be the superior option.)
3. There already exists a multitude of +energy traits, set bonuses, Skill Tree effects, etc, so there would not be a need to create something new to address the existing kinetic torpedoes & mines.
4. No need to invest in re-working mechanics for existing kinetic weapons.
I have my own opinions about the drawbacks (lack of variety of damage types, lack of challenge of dealing with enemy defenses [shields defend against kinetic damage, while different hull types *should* defend against different energy types], limited ceiling on damage range of the energy projectiles, not addressing some fundamental issues that will still affect the energy projectiles, etc), but what are your thoughts?
Also, do you think +Energy Locators/Exploiters should buff the energy projectiles? Do they now? I haven't checked since the release of the AP projectile, and the answer was, 'No', then.
@Odenknight | U.S.S. Challenger | "Remember The Seven"
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
Fleet Defiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support | Fleet Manticore Kinetic Strike Ship | Tactical Command Kinetic Siege Refit | Fleet Defiant Quantum Phase Escort | Fleet Valiant Kinetic Heavy Fire Support
Turning the Galaxy-X into a Torpedo Dreadnought & torpedo tutorial, with written torpedo guide.
"A good weapon and a great strategy will win you many battles." - Marshall
I knew using Kinetics would be playing the game on hard mode, but what I didn't realize was how bad the deck is stacked against Kinetics.
0
Comments
Also... Energy Torps are kinda... bad against Aceton Assimilators.
normal text = me speaking as fellow formite
colored text = mod mode
Yep. Any build of mine that uses Energy Torps also has the Kinetic Cutting Beam and/or some kind of kinetic Experimental Weapon. There's only a few places I typically face Aceton Assimilators, but when I do, some kind of kinetic damage is a must.
They all kill stuff. I have no idea what does boost them and what doesn't but they're all viable. The toon which uses the AP torpedo can usually do a lot of damage with it even though he has no torpedo boosting skills or consoles so I assume that stuff which boosts AP damage also affects the torpedo.
As for whether this is a good development: I don't really have an opinion on that.
Using a regular photon torpedo is an unnecessary drawback when you can slot the phaser/AP torpedo and boost your phaser damage so in that sense it is a logical development in a game where less and less sacrifices have to be made to get more of everything (be it reduced boff timers, stacking of abilities, consoles and gear with extra passive boosts or console bonuses).
It may promote lazy builds (or builds that make things less challenging to more specifically answer one of the OP's questions) where one console boosts everything and not just the energy weapons, but if that's what the player wants, then so be it. It is the more logical approach to ship building so I guess it is also logical that the devs are creating more energy torpedoes.
I run the dis torp for the 3pc set bonus and my AP torp has been gathering dust since about two weeks it's event was over. It's nice that they run on +energy consoles but they also defeat the purpose of slotting a torp in the first place.
The logic that torpedo's are neutralized as long there are a few percent of shields are left is absolute ridicules on the other hand energy weapons can deal with shields and hull nearly exactly the same way.
You can make them work, and spectacularly so, but it's an uphill struggle with all the odds stacked against you. From things like shared cooldowns (which energy weapons lack) to having long time-2-target (which beams/energy weapons lack), to having wildly different interaction with shields and hull (which again, energy weapons lack!) they are seriously not in a good place.
These energy version just make people think they are running torps when all they are doing is using a heavy cannon of sorts, and don't need to worry about all the foibles of properly using kinetic weapons (shield resistances, time to target, firing timing).
If they really wanted to be revolutionary they could make energy weapons have the same difficulty damaging hull as kinetics suffer from shields. That way you create and actual need so kinetic weapons, and give each weapon type a more niche area in which to shine. Because right now, and for the last 8yrs, torps have felt like the red-headed step-child of weapons in this game.
That one made me really laugh. You know at least it’s not about fire at will any more… by now all energy weapons are evil! All are cheap and dirty to use. NERF!
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
A wonderful idea, let's make it so!
There should be some way to promote the use of kinetic torpedoes and combining those with energy weapons. Some benefit that only kinetics get, and energy torpedoes don't without those benefits being tied to sacrificing console slots.
Like what? Make torps so good that they reduce the duration of CCA below zero?
Looking for a fun PvE fleet? Join us at Omega Combat Division today.
The game consists of more than CCA
Of course, if the only way to make torpedos worth using is to make everything else become garbage, maybe torps are just terrible in practice AND concept.
Well why not?
From the very beginning this game has had some seriously flawed logic in that energy weapons are great at everything but yet torpedoes or anything kinetic is next to useless in a lot of situations despite it being the total opposite in the shows and movies.
It should always have been set up so that each weapon type has different pros and con but we just don't have that.
I don't care for people using all energy weapons, or following whatever the latest meta is, but i do care that you have such a huge disparity between not only different weapons being effective, but also what we saw on screen.
Torps can be made to work but it's a massive struggle and costly, and still lacks behind most other damage builds. And for any new players trying to get into using them it's an absolute nightmare because at low level that single torp you have is a godsend but the higher you level the more worthless kinetics become. So someone who wants to play like their favourite show captain did quickly loses faith in running any kinetic weapons.
That's some seriously flawed game design.
Perhaps what is needed is to take everything right back to the beginning and start over with some balanced weaponry.
I mostly agree with this but there are some issues with it as well.
First and foremost properly balancing something is not their forte. We've seen it counltess times over the years by now, something is either OP as f*ck or so miserable that it's practically a waste of space. There are some exceptions but those are few and far between.
Also the second big point is the wiping the slate part. In an eight year old MMO doing something drastic like that will potenitally alienate a big portion of the playerbase. It can work out but it can also horrendously fail and lead to a mass exodus, especially considering all the previous "balancing" attempts.
It could maybe be the best approach to ensure the game's long term health but that high risk of a collossal fail is probably the reason why something like that will never happen.
Don't let them promote you. Don't let them transfer you. Don't let them do anything that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you're there... you can make a difference.
-Captain James T. Kirk
You don't understand the mechanics, that's why. Torpedoes have always been useless against shields. You only need to watch the shows to see this. The reason is because Torpedoes don't focus the destructive power at a minute point unlike energy weapons. Shields disperse the explosion quite well as they have some give, unlike hulls, which do not, which is why torpedoes are so devastating against a solid, unmoving hull. Shields have to work alot harder when a focused energy beam or bolt hits it. The physics AND the logic behind this are sound.
Umm....have you seen The Undiscovered Country....????
Nah.
My Galaxy class runs a true blue cannon build and has no issue. Torpedos are effective weapons in STO but they are not nearly as destructive as the shows. When the game launched that was very much not the case. It used to be HYT and TS stacked and there was no 80% shield reduction to torpedo dmg. So there was shotguns of torpedos resulting in instant death like DS9 style.
Perhaps its time to consider lowering the shield reduction some but trust me you dont want it removed as a single HYT3 would kill all of us every time. My ships are able to hit in the 100's of thousands with single torpedo hits on regular bases, its how you build. 99% of the player base doesnt bother even specing for torps, cant just throw one on and expect to get the max out of it.
Torpedo boats can be scary mothers, and proper hybrid builds are really effective. Main problem with torpedos is their travel speed, they dont get to target before it dies thus lower damage output, thats part of why the Kelvin torpedo is so well liked it is super fast, that and its torpedo reload proc.
Best thing they could do is fold the energy and torpedo consoles together, give all energy dmg consoles +torpedo/mine damage as well, if only at 1/2 the value of normal. Aka 30% phaser dmg 15% torpedo/mine dmg. And you could have torpedo consoles do the opposite of +30% photon damage +15% energy dmg.
If it takes an energy torpedo to have one that is effective and properly represent the damage dealt by torpedoes in the shows, then the issue is solved, right?
Energy torpedoes can then be as powerful as they should be according to the shows, you get the visuals of firing a torpedo and you can benefit from regular phaser/AP/whatever consoles and set bonuses.
They did start this with the Fleet Colony holding. The tac consoles there boost both energy and kinetic weapons, but they are still not going to really help much.
They only offer a minimal amount of kinetic damage in return for being hybrid consoles. So were you to slot them right now they are going to gimp at least part of your build. Likewise if you use them to create a hybrid build then you're going to be well under other builds as the consoles split the bonus between two weapon types; compared to the spire consoles they are not as good i feel.
General Chang's BOP was ripping apart Enterprise with torpedoes. It would have been the same with Excelsior until it came time for Plot to save the ships.
There was also the DS9 episode where the Defiant was skirmishing with the Lakota. Both Starfleet ships were fighting but did not want to fight with the "gloves off." Cmdr Benteen on the Lakota was reporting to Adm.Leyton that Defiant was much tougher than her reported specs said. Leyton said to use the Quantum Torpedoes and Benteen disobeys the order and lets Defiant through. Using them would destroy Defiant and not merely disable her like the original aim was.
At best, this scene is only just barely capable of arguing that torpedos are as effective as phasers, much like how the energy torpedos are now. At worst, the scene could be easily construed as proof of just how accurately STO regards kinetic weaponry.