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The Engine Needs to be Upgraded Badly
daedalus304
Member Posts: 1,049 Arc User
I know I know, another one of these posts.
but it doesn't change the fact this game is very much ancient in its engine, I mean....it's from 2006, modified heavily a few years ago, but not enough. This game, even with very good hardware, struggles at times, especially in the new "counterpoint" where it seems a lot of people are having problems with framerate, even with good hardware.
Not only that, but the developers have stated many times in the past, the engine is limited in what it can do. I understand updating an engine to full 64-bit isn't easy, or quick. nor is getting all the features they want in it. but updating the engine will do this game, and many future Cryptic games a world of good.
Heck with an updated engine, they'll have more choices on expanding the game. think about it, turning the genesis engine back on, fully updated, and revamped. able to handle everything that'd make exploration interesting. or modifying the engine enough, so they can make new ship parts far more resource, and time efficient, allowing us to have far more expansive ship designs, and customizations.
an updated foundry, new physics features, whatever. a new engine will take time, and money yes. but I want to see STO live Long, and constantly evolve, and it won't be able to do that if it's already chugging along the level of obsolescence. 32 bit is dead, it's dead, inefficient, and probably more time consuming to function well.
more efficient systems, streamlining things that used to take forever, I know it's a lot of work, but it could be worth it. and of course there's also the possibility of selling the use of the engine if it's done well.
and not only all of that, but I'd like to see it run Vulkan and DX12 eventually. I would pay way WAY up if it meant we'd get an updated engine. at this rate, STO could fall so far behind, CBS greenlights a more modern, and adaptable Star Trek MMO in the future.
but it doesn't change the fact this game is very much ancient in its engine, I mean....it's from 2006, modified heavily a few years ago, but not enough. This game, even with very good hardware, struggles at times, especially in the new "counterpoint" where it seems a lot of people are having problems with framerate, even with good hardware.
Not only that, but the developers have stated many times in the past, the engine is limited in what it can do. I understand updating an engine to full 64-bit isn't easy, or quick. nor is getting all the features they want in it. but updating the engine will do this game, and many future Cryptic games a world of good.
Heck with an updated engine, they'll have more choices on expanding the game. think about it, turning the genesis engine back on, fully updated, and revamped. able to handle everything that'd make exploration interesting. or modifying the engine enough, so they can make new ship parts far more resource, and time efficient, allowing us to have far more expansive ship designs, and customizations.
an updated foundry, new physics features, whatever. a new engine will take time, and money yes. but I want to see STO live Long, and constantly evolve, and it won't be able to do that if it's already chugging along the level of obsolescence. 32 bit is dead, it's dead, inefficient, and probably more time consuming to function well.
more efficient systems, streamlining things that used to take forever, I know it's a lot of work, but it could be worth it. and of course there's also the possibility of selling the use of the engine if it's done well.
and not only all of that, but I'd like to see it run Vulkan and DX12 eventually. I would pay way WAY up if it meant we'd get an updated engine. at this rate, STO could fall so far behind, CBS greenlights a more modern, and adaptable Star Trek MMO in the future.
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Trying to retro-fit a new engine into the current game would break more things than it would fix, and it would take longer than anyone would want to wait.
It seems to me that CBS greenlighting a more modern and adaptable Star Trek MMO would be exactly what you want--except you want your cake and to eat it as well, not losing the progress and attainments in this MMO. I just don't see a rewrite with a new engine happening. The economics don't support it.
the way I see it, and the way current trends are going....it's either the engine upgrades, or STO dwindles in three years. again the engine is 10 years old at best.
and no, it won't break more things than it'd fix, yes it'd take a while, but an updated engine would bring vast improvements to the game itself, and the longevity. right now it feels like STO is just being used up, until all the money is squeezed out of it.
if something isn't done to improve the system (a system who's UI causes FPS, and basic performace drops) then the game will stagnate and just decay as it is. nothing new will be added. there is only so much you can do with a 32-bit system, and I fear they've reached the limits with STO.
more like 3-5 years to build a new engine. thats resources they wont spend to make one either, especially for star trek online, and what happens if there are unforeseen circumstances along the way? it would be a massive risk.
no i cant see this game engine being rebuild or the team pulling the game for a few years to "fix" their engine.
Been around since Dec 2010 on STO and bought LTS in Apr 2013 for STO.
No, nope, niet, nein, nej, nah, nu-uh. You shouldn't have added that bit.
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DOOOOOOOMMMMMMMM!
(The Austin Powers version)
On the one side they, and defenders, cry out "we're so small we can't do the thing!"
And on the other they do interviews about how amazing their sales and marketing "metrics" are.
"Delta Rising is the best expansion and players love it." < 'member this?
If the game is selling well why aren't you investing portions of that money in not just maintaining the server but overhauling the thing?
Or
You claim that you're too small to get stuff done.... Why isn't that money actively going into hiring new people. The last anyone was made publically aware of jobs being open was "We need a new lead writer!"
It feels like cryptic just really doesn't care about reinvestment of their own assets and that same mentality is why the local mom&pop corner market/restaurant/gas station in the small town I live in now belongs to the county Co-op.
And no... I don't just mean this for STO... there's the whole Neverwinter portion of Cryptic too. IT is so wonky in how it manages macro-transactions(there's nothing 'micro' about me spending money, EVER) that it caused justifiable ire from their own forum community so much so that, that DDoSer began attacking Cryptic servers so that we couldn't play STO.
Cryptic has a track record of plating up something "exciting" and "completely unseen" to sell to us then opening the lid and showing us just how crusty the skillet is that makes it.... and i'm tired of people defending them for being "small." Cryptic is NOT small. not with the wads of money they make on BOTH neverwinter and STO. no, they artificially remain miniature so they can avoid a BUNCH of legit criticism, just like how Warframe continues to perpetuate it's an "Open Beta." It's BS to avoid garnering bad press.
Look at screenshots from the release of the game, and look at them now. You'll see the differences.
Look at the release ship models, and look at newly released ships. There have been constant refinements and improvements to the game, and they will continue until the game can no longer be maintained.
Here is your 64-bit platform of the FUTURE:
Think you're confusing Cryptic and PWI there.
The payroll department is the same, no matter what name is used....
*no it's not, it's significantly far more intensive, but if your car engine can't take you across town without stuttering every 500ft, then it's time you cleaned out the gunk, replaced the air filter, spark plugs, alternator, and maybe the fuel pump.
*no, but a game engine ages badly if it's 10 years old, and you cram it full of things it wasn't originally meant to do. seriously, they made "improvments" to the engine, but all they really did was tack on features that looked better, not make it run better.
*a game engine does benefit from more bits, if it's an MMO with a lot of TRIBBLE going on the screen, and needs to be updated in order to remain competitive. right now the only thing drawing people in, is Star Trek, and it doesn't manage to keep them.
again, when your UI drops FPS by 10% then you've got an inefficient engine.
Come on cryptic! I mean what do those guys even do up there? Making a new engine can't be that hard, just a few 1's here and some 0's there right? Do some real work!
I think your post here is being more than a tad unfair to marketing people of "any" software development company. You're also being aggressively rude to the person you're responding to. That doesn't help anyone.
So I'm just going to address your comment about MMOs having a life cycle and dying ...
Here's a fun read.
Funny you say that, I thought the same...lol.
If Cryptic was/is put into a position that they need a new game engine, it would be in their best interest to pay for a third party engine instead of making their own.
Owning your own game engine sounds cool but can actually end up being more work and more expensive overall. With Cryptic being a smaller team also, it just makes more sense for them to pay for a third party game engine.
That said, it doesn't appear that Cryptic is in that position. The game still works, and runs fine on the latest Windows 10(or so I'm told). Also, if they did need to do an upgrade or have a new game engine, STO would be gone and be replaced with who knows...STO 2 I guess?
Considering how long World of Warcraft has been around (making more money and having more players than any other MMO), and that it hasn't managed to completely rip out its engine and replace it with something new, I don't think there will be any other way.
But notice how Blizzard has released new games - but hasn't released World of Warcraft 2.
I agree that any new engine-based MMO is going to involve a hard reboot, most likely by a different studio entirely and with no carry over of our war chest from here. If anything the time this game has given players to sit and pile up accrued advantage is about to burry it. The gap between new players and veterans is extreme. Gaps that go beyond just upgrading gear to whole libraries of ships and consoles that are flat out unachievable to new players. The idea that they're off to Las Vegas to try and lure in a new bunch of players says some of these longstanding walls between have and have-not NEED to come down. There's a lot more than just the engine that's grown long in the tooth and outdated. The whole process of limited exclusives has mortgaged the game's future to pay for its present. There's a degree of pandering to the old guard that's gonna eventually have to stop if anyone, old guard or new, wants to see this game remain profitable. That's going to be revamping lots of systems, not just the skill tracks. Exploration gameplay is just one of those things, and a thing where there are younger, quicker rats in the race and they're coming up fast.
Again you fail on all three points.
"Upgrading" a game engine doesn't mean going in and "cleaning out gunk" from various blocks of code. No. It means designing an entirely new engine, which is years of work for a full team. Didn't Cryptic buy the current engine in the first place? You have no understanding of what's involved in this.
Code doesn't "age." The engine is not only just as good today as it was ten years ago, it's probably better, as they've made tweaks and improvements where they can.
Okay Mr. Computer Genius, tell us how this game will necessarily "benefit from more bits." Tell us what that actually means. Make us believe that you didn't just hear about "bits" and decide that STO needs more of them, without having the slightest idea of what it means. Go on. I am very interested in your response. I am sure it will involve sound technical justification rather than a repetition of "MORE BITS IS BETTER BECAUSE WE NEEDS MOAR BITS!!!!11!1".
Many players have stated the UI is what's killing FPS because its not optimized. I believe I have read/heard that another UI update it on the table, AND they have already updated the UI over the last few years to fix issues that occurred due to changes made to the engine. ( Don't know if that's 100% accurate, but im talking about the ENORMOUS lag time between hitting the skill button and actual skill activation that threatened to break the game, I think we all remember THAT) I'm not a huge GAMER, STO is the only game I play a lot. Heck I don't even play console games on a regular basis, and although STO IS showing signs of aging, I blame my machine more than anything, or my eyesight, because I'M showing signs of aging also.
Bottom line is, I tend to give the development team the benefit of the doubt. They are likely walking a fine line between the corporate boss type yelling in one ear " YOUR GAME NEEDS TO MAKE MORE MONEY!" and the Team Supervisor yelling in the other ear " YOU NEED TO FINISH THIS, and THAT, and GET THAT WORKING BETTER BY FRIDAY!" All the while realizing the tech they are working with is being used and abused and stretched in some places to its limits.
To sum up my longwinded rant about nothing I would like to say " LONG LIVE STO!"
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A very good point, and why I feel that STO isn't in need of a new game engine anyway, at least from my perspective. As long as it gets the job done and doesn't die it's all good. Kind of like...
The only real advantage to writing a 64-bit application is access to more than 2 GB of program RAM for the application. That's it. But, then you lose compatibility with anyone still running a 32-bit version of Windows.
Yes, some applications can benefit from having more than 2 GB of RAM, to reduce reads from disk. But graphics won't magically get shinier and lag won't disappear from extra bitness.
Secondly, *IF* this were going to happen its already being worked on. More likely they'll milk this cow for another 2-4yrs before sunsetting it, possibly in favor of a STO2 with said new engine.
The lag sources are not the engine. Either some new graphical effect is poorly coded (seems that way, post last update) or something like that is the culprit, not whether the engine is 64 bit or when it was written.
Which is not saying that the engine update is a bad idea -- I am all for it. I am just pointing out that the source of lag should not be the engine. New content poorly appied to an old engine, possibly, but thats a bug/coding error, not the engine.
While I agree with everything you said DCUO has tons more content than STO. Just food for thought.
original join date 2010
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gear grind =/= content :P if it did, then yes, DCUO would have tons more. As it is even its white knights are starting to complain.