Sure you can. As you just said, Neutral Zones, DMZ, and as mentioned, the Metrons did it... My point, was that the Dominion were so comfortable with their position pf power, that they did not even need to do that, because everyone in the area knew where their turf began (other than Starfleet, who were from the other side of the galaxy )
You're still ignoring the part where several local species did not consider themselves Dominion members. The Dosi, for example, who spoke of them as "somebody else".
The Dominion considered the entire galaxy their rightful possession. You don't own it unless you're occupying it, and the Dominion did not extend its physical border to the wormhole's vicinity until two years AFTER the Alpha Quadrant started wandering around. New Bajor belonged to the Bajorans,not the Dominion.
I'd say it was that disastrous first contact and a whole disastrous series of events which caused the Dominion war.
Not only did the first encounter go spectacularly wrong with the loss of the Odyssey, the failed Tal Shiar/Obsidian Order strike and massacre in the Omarian Nebula raises the tensions even further with the Founders. Sisko's minefield was the excuse the Dominion were looking for to commence open warfare
Again, you're missing the point. The Dominion was never interested in peaceful coexistence and was planning the war from the word "go", BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. There really sincerely was no way around fighting the Dominion somehow, somewhere, sometime. Sisko et al. refusing to be cowed by terrorist ultimatums and deliberate unprovoked attacks on civilians meant they were ready for it when it came.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
You're still ignoring the part where several local species did not consider themselves Dominion members. The Dosi, for example, who spoke of them as "somebody else".
Perhaps, the Dosi were from a region beyond the border of the Dominion...
The Dominion considered the entire galaxy their rightful possession. You don't own it unless you're occupying it, and the Dominion did not extend its physical border to the wormhole's vicinity until two years AFTER the Alpha Quadrant started wandering around. New Bajor belonged to the Bajorans,not the Dominion.
You've answered your own question there... The Dominion expanded it's border, and what became New Bajor was in that territory before the Bajoran's moved in... This very issue was one dealt with in patrickngo and my story Propertyline Dispute, where the Moab Confederacy began to colonise a world which, unbeknownst to them, was part of the Pentaxian Dynasty. The Dynasty told them to move, and when they refused, they glassed the planet. Didn't do their reputation in the eyes of the interstellar community any favors, but they were within their right as a sovereign state, to defend their territory from occupation...
Perhaps, the Dosi were from a region beyond the border of the Dominion...
You've answered your own question there... The Dominion expanded it's border, and what became New Bajor was in that territory before the Bajoran's moved in... This very issue was one dealt with in patrickngo and my story Propertyline Dispute, where the Moab Confederacy began to colonise a world which, unbeknownst to them, was part of the Pentaxian Dynasty. The Dynasty told them to move, and when they refused, they glassed the planet. Didn't do their reputation in the eyes of the interstellar community any favors, but they were within their right as a sovereign state, to defend their territory from occupation...
Extending your borders by military conquest after the fact is not the same thing as prior possession. And in your example the Pentaxians warned the Moabites to move before initiating hostilities. The Dominion glassed New Bajor first and THEN delivered their ultimatum.
Your logic is fallacious. They are not comparable situations.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
This. I sincerely doubt that the Jem Hadar beamed down to New Bajor and said "get off our land" first either.
The Jem Hadar usually kill everything with their shoot first ask questions later policy
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Extending your borders by military conquest after the fact is not the same thing as prior possession. And in your example the Pentaxians warned the Moabites to move before initiating hostilities. The Dominion glassed New Bajor first and THEN delivered their ultimatum.
Your logic is fallacious. They are not comparable situations.
Your logic is equally flawed, in that you are assuming that the Dominion expanded their teritory after the Bajorans moved in... I agree, that the Pentaxians did at least issue a warning, before taking action. As far as the Dominion were concerned, glassing New Bajor was the warning -- to everyone else...
[Edit to add]
There's no way to know precisely when the Dominion expanded their territory, or even that New Bajor was in the same system as the terminus of the wormhole, as the Jem-Hadar simply refered to it as 'the anomoly', but, something I would point out, is I can't think of any instances of the Founders lying. In that regard, if they said it was their territory, chances are it was...
The Dominion considered the entire galaxy their rightful possession. You don't own it unless you're occupying it, and the Dominion did not extend its physical border to the wormhole's vicinity until two years AFTER the Alpha Quadrant started wandering around. New Bajor belonged to the Bajorans,not the Dominion.
Again, you're missing the point. The Dominion was never interested in peaceful coexistence and was planning the war from the word "go", BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. There really sincerely was no way around fighting the Dominion somehow, somewhere, sometime. Sisko et al. refusing to be cowed by terrorist ultimatums and deliberate unprovoked attacks on civilians meant they were ready for it when it came.
With any conflict you have to look at the military and strategic picture, yes the Dominion were planning a war of conquest and with Starfleet still relatively weakened from the recent Borg incursion, first contact with the Dominion could not have happened at a worse time for the Federation.
The problem is for the Alpha Quadrant powers is they have very little intel on the Dominion where as the Dominion have a very good intel picture of the Alpha Quadrant with their agents spread over the quadrant not only to gather intel but to also destabilize any future opposition through sabotage actions and diplomacy.
It's a good divide and conquer strategy being put into play and to a point it works in keeping the Alpha Quadrant powers fighting each other instead of presenting a united front to any potential Dominion incursion.
Once Cardassia joins the Dominion, it becomes the Dominion bridgehead into the Alpha Quadrant and for much of the war they hold the strategic advantage.
"The meaning of victory is not to merely defeat your enemy but to destroy him, to completely eradicate him from living memory, to leave no remnant of his endeavours, to crush utterly his achievement and remove from all record his every trace of existence. From that defeat no enemy can ever recover. That is the meaning of victory."
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
Starfleet started the war??!!...can I interest you in some nice oceanfront property in North Dakota? Its there, only about 65 million years old.
While we can argue the similarities between the hegemony of the Federation and the Dominion, the basic idea of the Federation is that it is voluntary to be a part of it. There are many examples of planets in Federation Space that are not part of the Federation. It is true that to trade with the Federation normally, you have to follow their trade laws, but that how it is with trading with any sovereign entity, (Norway with the EU a perfect example). the Founders didn't allow that, they wanted your oath fealty, period. After that, as long paid your taxes, offered you oath of loyalty and supported their directives when they tell you, you were allowed to have your government.
Ancient Griffon insult
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
Your logic is equally flawed, in that you are assuming that the Dominion expanded their teritory after the Bajorans moved in... I agree, that the Pentaxians did at least issue a warning, before taking action. As far as the Dominion were concerned, glassing New Bajor was the warning -- to everyone else...
[Edit to add]
There's no way to know precisely when the Dominion expanded their territory, or even that New Bajor was in the same system as the terminus of the wormhole, as the Jem-Hadar simply refered to it as 'the anomoly', but, something I would point out, is I can't think of any instances of the Founders lying. In that regard, if they said it was their territory, chances are it was...
No, we can't know for sure, but we can make a reasonable guess:
"Rules of Acquisition", 2370, first mention of the Dominion. The Dosi knew OF the Dominion and traded with one of their subject races, but they themselves were not members.
"Sanctuary", first mention of the Dominion as star-conquerors. The Skkreea were close enough to the wormhole they blundered into it by accident while fleeing ahead of the Jem'Hadar.
Probable range of DS9-based exploration. They were mostly using runabouts, which puts a restriction on how far they can go into deep space. Runabouts still have to carry their own fuel: they're not perpetual motion machines. Based on their size I'm going to guess and say maybe 30, 40 light-years.
Similarly, probable distance from New Bajor to the wormhole. They would've been fairly close so they'd be in range of timely support from home, due to the speed of civilian-available warp drives. (Even a runabout can only make warp 5.) Also, at this point nobody has any way of communicating through the wormhole (they devoted an entire episode to that, "Destiny", later in the series), so any messages, including distress signals, must be couriered.
So, the Dominion weren't originally in the vicinity or they'd have met them sooner. Star Trek ships have multiple light-year sensor ranges and the Jems had just overrun a planet on their then-border (the Skrreean homeworld, previously conquered by the T-Rogarans a la Israel getting conquered by Babylon which was then overrun by Assyria), so they would've come to check out any warp signatures they didn't recognize in case they were enemy reinforcements. And since the Bajorans wouldn't have set up housekeeping on a planet out of range of DS9 and had no clue there were Jem bugs in the area, that means the Dominion was still pretty far away (but not far enough away to make trade relations between the Karemma and Dosi impractical). Which gives prior claim to the Bajorans.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Right, the "rights of a superior species" argument. But their intellect is not demonstrably higher than the average humanoid. And they're not so different from solids in their reactions either. Mentally, they are very certainly not superior to humanoids, or else they wouldn't have turned conquistador.
I would say the history of the Dominion is proof that the Changelings were inferior on a mental scale to most solids. They never had to develop technology to do most things, they can travel through space by themselves, as even a lone alpha quadrant changeling was able to take form and do so.
While we don't know for sure how the Dominion formed, but we know it is ancient, we know once that the Changelings were hunted and now they dominate others to control them. Logically they conquered a single species by their physical superiority, then used that species to move to the next one. Eventually they were able to use someone with genetic engineering abilities to modify the Vorta and Jem'Hadar to serve them, but even to that day we see its far from perfect, their technology level also isn't that high. Their ships are slow, and defensively weak, they are also built to be assembled fast and to attack, there is no interest to explore.
So after all these years, the Changelings were that intelligent, they'd have a higher technology level, if they really cared, but its clear they use other species to make their weapons and equipment for them. I'd call them gluttonous, they'll sit in that link all day long like a lazy bum watching tv all day.
Its pretty clear the fault of the war is on the Changelings, you can't poke someone with a stick all day long and then get angry when they push back and say they started the fight. They freely admit, they distrust solids, they won't tolerate uncontrolled solids and the Federation is a large threat to their entire Dominion's peace, and it's sense of freedom could have incited rebellion. The war was coming before the two powers ever even met, who said what when and where is irrelevant. The Federation starting the war is like saying Picard got the Borg angry.
Well, if you think the Founder's can't be that intelligent due to the technological development during the age of the Universe... What do you think of the Voth?
Star Trek Online Advancement: You start with lowbie gear, you end with Lobi gear.
Well, if you think the Founder's can't be that intelligent due to the technological development during the age of the Universe... What do you think of the Voth?
Held back by inflexible doctrine and autocratic leaders. Bog-standard dictatorship stuff.
"Great War! / And I cannot take more! / Great tour! / I keep on marching on / I play the great score / There will be no encore / Great War! / The War to End All Wars"
— Sabaton, "Great War"
I'd say the Founders are fairly intelligent, But extremely complacent, They have no interest in technology, possibly because they consider it to be beneath them, the crude tools and methods of a solid
These are the Voyages on the STO forum, the final frontier. Our continuing mission: to explore Pretentious Posts, to seek out new Overreactions and Misinformation , to boldly experience Cynicism like no man has before.......
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The Dominion considered the entire galaxy their rightful possession. You don't own it unless you're occupying it, and the Dominion did not extend its physical border to the wormhole's vicinity until two years AFTER the Alpha Quadrant started wandering around. New Bajor belonged to the Bajorans,not the Dominion.
Again, you're missing the point. The Dominion was never interested in peaceful coexistence and was planning the war from the word "go", BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION. There really sincerely was no way around fighting the Dominion somehow, somewhere, sometime. Sisko et al. refusing to be cowed by terrorist ultimatums and deliberate unprovoked attacks on civilians meant they were ready for it when it came.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
You've answered your own question there... The Dominion expanded it's border, and what became New Bajor was in that territory before the Bajoran's moved in... This very issue was one dealt with in patrickngo and my story Propertyline Dispute, where the Moab Confederacy began to colonise a world which, unbeknownst to them, was part of the Pentaxian Dynasty. The Dynasty told them to move, and when they refused, they glassed the planet. Didn't do their reputation in the eyes of the interstellar community any favors, but they were within their right as a sovereign state, to defend their territory from occupation...
Extending your borders by military conquest after the fact is not the same thing as prior possession. And in your example the Pentaxians warned the Moabites to move before initiating hostilities. The Dominion glassed New Bajor first and THEN delivered their ultimatum.
Your logic is fallacious. They are not comparable situations.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
The Jem Hadar usually kill everything with their shoot first ask questions later policy
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
[Edit to add]
There's no way to know precisely when the Dominion expanded their territory, or even that New Bajor was in the same system as the terminus of the wormhole, as the Jem-Hadar simply refered to it as 'the anomoly', but, something I would point out, is I can't think of any instances of the Founders lying. In that regard, if they said it was their territory, chances are it was...
With any conflict you have to look at the military and strategic picture, yes the Dominion were planning a war of conquest and with Starfleet still relatively weakened from the recent Borg incursion, first contact with the Dominion could not have happened at a worse time for the Federation.
The problem is for the Alpha Quadrant powers is they have very little intel on the Dominion where as the Dominion have a very good intel picture of the Alpha Quadrant with their agents spread over the quadrant not only to gather intel but to also destabilize any future opposition through sabotage actions and diplomacy.
It's a good divide and conquer strategy being put into play and to a point it works in keeping the Alpha Quadrant powers fighting each other instead of presenting a united front to any potential Dominion incursion.
Once Cardassia joins the Dominion, it becomes the Dominion bridgehead into the Alpha Quadrant and for much of the war they hold the strategic advantage.
-Lord Commander Solar Macharius
While we can argue the similarities between the hegemony of the Federation and the Dominion, the basic idea of the Federation is that it is voluntary to be a part of it. There are many examples of planets in Federation Space that are not part of the Federation. It is true that to trade with the Federation normally, you have to follow their trade laws, but that how it is with trading with any sovereign entity, (Norway with the EU a perfect example). the Founders didn't allow that, they wanted your oath fealty, period. After that, as long paid your taxes, offered you oath of loyalty and supported their directives when they tell you, you were allowed to have your government.
That one is so stupid, he lost a Rock/Paper/Scissors game to a Pony.
No, we can't know for sure, but we can make a reasonable guess:
So, the Dominion weren't originally in the vicinity or they'd have met them sooner. Star Trek ships have multiple light-year sensor ranges and the Jems had just overrun a planet on their then-border (the Skrreean homeworld, previously conquered by the T-Rogarans a la Israel getting conquered by Babylon which was then overrun by Assyria), so they would've come to check out any warp signatures they didn't recognize in case they were enemy reinforcements. And since the Bajorans wouldn't have set up housekeeping on a planet out of range of DS9 and had no clue there were Jem bugs in the area, that means the Dominion was still pretty far away (but not far enough away to make trade relations between the Karemma and Dosi impractical). Which gives prior claim to the Bajorans.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/
I would say the history of the Dominion is proof that the Changelings were inferior on a mental scale to most solids. They never had to develop technology to do most things, they can travel through space by themselves, as even a lone alpha quadrant changeling was able to take form and do so.
While we don't know for sure how the Dominion formed, but we know it is ancient, we know once that the Changelings were hunted and now they dominate others to control them. Logically they conquered a single species by their physical superiority, then used that species to move to the next one. Eventually they were able to use someone with genetic engineering abilities to modify the Vorta and Jem'Hadar to serve them, but even to that day we see its far from perfect, their technology level also isn't that high. Their ships are slow, and defensively weak, they are also built to be assembled fast and to attack, there is no interest to explore.
So after all these years, the Changelings were that intelligent, they'd have a higher technology level, if they really cared, but its clear they use other species to make their weapons and equipment for them. I'd call them gluttonous, they'll sit in that link all day long like a lazy bum watching tv all day.
Its pretty clear the fault of the war is on the Changelings, you can't poke someone with a stick all day long and then get angry when they push back and say they started the fight. They freely admit, they distrust solids, they won't tolerate uncontrolled solids and the Federation is a large threat to their entire Dominion's peace, and it's sense of freedom could have incited rebellion. The war was coming before the two powers ever even met, who said what when and where is irrelevant. The Federation starting the war is like saying Picard got the Borg angry.
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Held back by inflexible doctrine and autocratic leaders. Bog-standard dictatorship stuff.
— Sabaton, "Great War"
Check out https://unitedfederationofpla.net/s/