It's those ships that do absolutely nothing during every major battle we fight, but they manage to get all the glory and fame and the rewards instead of us.
"A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP"
Obsolete to some simply means "not the most advanced design". There are newer ships with improvements over older ships - but that doesn't mean the old ships get thrown away and forgotten. They stay in service, get upgrades - they may lag behind, but they are still useful.
But in a STO, people often really want to use the best there is - because they rae not commanding a fleet of dozens of ships, and having one old and the new one together is better than just the new one. You can fly only one at a time, and there is no reason to take the weaker ship.
Obsolete to me means a ship that can't be used anymore...can I still use my T5 ships in the new expansion...yes...so they are not obsolete
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Exactly, there is no logic to it.
Seriously It takes more than just a year to completely design, build and introduce a new fleet of starships that outclasses everything that came before.
None of which were made obsolete less than a year after the introduction of their CLASS. :rolleyes:
Except the Oddy was obsolete since well...since not long after it was launched...it's kinda a jack of all trades master of none.
Oh and before I forget...I'm amazed how you know every T5 U ship will be obsolete...how many devs are leaking you information about the T6 ships and their powers?
Oh and before I forget...I'm amazed how you know every T5 U ship will be obsolete...how many devs are leaking you information about the T6 ships and their powers?
Just look at the pack information, and understand that the bonus boff slot they get is a commander level slot. Unless the Information Officer's powers are completely useless 4 extra boff powers are going to swing the power curve entirely to the T6 ships.
1 Console slot and 10% hull vs 4 more boff powers? yeah, you be the judge which will be more important.
flagship has two meanings....the commander of the fleet's ship and the ship that is the best of the best
in STO it means the best of the best
Using the second doesn't really help here either..... just means the "Flagships" are not longer "flaghips".... But as "Flagships" don't by definition need to be "flagships", it still doesn't matter.
There's a post over in the Tribble PvP forums with screen caps and info on the Intel BOFF's abilities. Yeah, a Commander level Intel BOFF > 1 console slot and more hull. By far.
Per the devs
"I'm not sure where this misconception came from.
T6 ships have ONE additional Boff ability. Not 4, and not 5-7.
In other words, an existing T5 ship has 12. These will have 13. Not 16+ like you're implying."
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
There's a post over in the Tribble PvP forums with screen caps and info on the Intel BOFF's abilities. Yeah, a Commander level Intel BOFF > 1 console slot and more hull. By far.
Are they adding an entire additional commander slot? I was under the impression that a lt cmdr slot was just becoming a cmdr slot, as compared to a T5U. So just one more commander level power. Is this confirmed somewhere?
That makes it sound like a Commander level BOFF seat, so it's understandable.
it could be a commander level BOFF seat...but it's not in addition to.
example on my Tac Oddy I have
LT Tac
CDR ENG
LT SCI
LCDR UNI
ENS UNI
on a T6 ship the layout could be
LT Tac
CDR ENG
LT SCI
CDR INTELL
ENS UNI
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Even having access to a full cmdr boff slot over lt.cmdr is a MAJOR advantage.
but you would be giving up a boff slot....look at your ship and decide which of those slots would you give up Tac, Sci, Eng or Uni for a CDR intelligence officer?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
it could be a commander level BOFF seat...but it's not in addition to.
example on my Tac Oddy I have
LT Tac
CDR ENG
LT SCI
LCDR UNI
ENS UNI
on a T6 ship the layout could be
LT Tac
CDR ENG
LT SCI
CDR INTELL
ENS UNI
Just a thought, but what if the commander level intelligence seat is the only commander seat on these ships, and they gain their extra power in a different seat?
Seems to be some confusion about it. According to Borticus, it's only 1 more BOFF slot, not a whole new Commander seat. That text in the pack info is confusing the issue.
Then maybe they can explain why on Tribble right now your Information Officer has skills that can be placed in space slots from Ensign to Commander. All 4 slots. If they can only be placed in a Commander level spot, there's no need for Ensign to Lt. Commander space skills.
The only Logical answer I can guess at is that you can put them in Universal slots, but that then completely destroys the "Only Information Ships can have Information Officers" line they're trying to hook people with.
Then maybe they can explain why on Tribble right now your Information Officer has skills that can be placed in space slots from Ensign to Commander. All 4 slots. If they can only be placed in a Commander level spot, there's no need for Ensign to Lt. Commander space skills.
The only Logical answer I can guess at is that you can put them in Universal slots, but that then completely destroys the "Only Information Ships can have Information Officers" line they're trying to hook people with.
They are likely replacing a lt cmdr tac, sci, eng, or uni seat with a commander intelligence seat. 4 intelligence power slots at the expense of three others.
Then maybe they can explain why on Tribble right now your Information Officer has skills that can be placed in space slots from Ensign to Commander. All 4 slots. If they can only be placed in a Commander level spot, there's no need for Ensign to Lt. Commander space skills.
The only Logical answer I can guess at is that you can put them in Universal slots, but that then completely destroys the "Only Information Ships can have Information Officers" line they're trying to hook people with.
You will have a commander intelligence officer but it is not an additional seat. Of the five seats we all have one will be a commander intell seat.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
There is 2 types of flagships that Star Trek uses.
Federation Flagship: The pride of the Federation, where ship and crew is the best there is. This is where the Enterprise and her crew usually fell into.
Fleet Flagship: Where an Admiral or someone who is in charge of a fleet. Most during fleet maneuvers and combat.
To me I'm in a Flagship of the Fleet.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
They are likely replacing a lt cmdr tac, sci, eng, or uni seat with a commander intelligence seat. 4 intelligence power slots at the expense of three others.
Flagship can mean "Ship the admiral of a taskforce is currently on". He's the flag officer, this is his ship. It is not necessarily the most powerful ship in the task force (though it often is), but rather the one the admiral feels is best suited to coordinating and commanding his group of ships. He may not even do this from the flagship's command deck, preferring to use more advanced CnC facilities located elsewhere.
Flagship can also mean, in a more colloquial sense, "Exemplary" or "Emblematic". A highly advanced and secretive recon ship crewed by spies and assassins isn't going to be the exemplar of the Starfleet ideal. Neither, necessarily, is a dedicated warship crewed by a hard-TRIBBLE military commander. The Enterprise remained very much an emblem of the Starfleet ideal , not because of it's capacity for violence or technological advancement, but because of the exploits of her captain and crew.
So...what is all the malarky about the current faction flagships not being good enough because they don't bring the most DPS?
why not?
technological advances are not on a time table. In RL ships become obsolete soon after launching. Is it impossible that a year after the ENT E launched another group of scientists and engineers got together and designed and built a ship more advanced then it?
Not just impossible but actual cannon that they didn't.
a lot of this upgrade stuff has now confused me so do tier 6 ships get a extra commander bo slot or does say a lt com slot become a com slot?
some clearance on this is clearly needed.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
Not just impossible but actual cannon that they didn't.
a lot of this upgrade stuff has now confused me so do tier 6 ships get a extra commander bo slot or does say a lt com slot become a com slot?
some clearance on this is clearly needed.
The T6 ships will have one more boff slot than the T5U....so yes it's like a LCDR uni becoming CDR.
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Not just impossible but actual cannon that they didn't.
a lot of this upgrade stuff has now confused me so do tier 6 ships get a extra commander bo slot or does say a lt com slot become a com slot?
some clearance on this is clearly needed.
How do you know that there weren't newer ships being designed within the same year as Ent E or Ent D?
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
The Prometheus Class came right after the Enterprise E, and it was more Advance
Also if the Enterprise D was not destroyed then the U.S.S Sovereign would have been more advance than the Galaxy class.
So even being the Flagship does not mean having the best stuff
Yup... Ronald Moore said the ship that would become Ent E was finished being built during the last season of TNG
Your pain runs deep.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Just look at the pack information, and understand that the bonus boff slot they get is a commander level slot. Unless the Information Officer's powers are completely useless 4 extra boff powers are going to swing the power curve entirely to the T6 ships.
1 Console slot and 10% hull vs 4 more boff powers? yeah, you be the judge which will be more important.
Except you think they're stupid enough to add a whole commander slot a.k.a. 4 powers? Besides they already said T6 will have one extra boff power not 4...just like with this bug ship will be T6 thing...people are reading it and thinking the absolute worst...people really need to learn how to read and interpret better.
Sure it will have 2 Cmdrs which is powerful...but we don't know how far these intelligence powers will go...but we do know adding a console slot can be very powerful to any ship...especially if it's a tac slot.
Plus we still don't know the stats on these ships...you don't know their hull strength, shield mod, turn rate, console numbers, or general boff seating.
The Prometheus Class came right after the Enterprise E, and it was more Advance
Also if the Enterprise D was not destroyed then the U.S.S Sovereign would have been more advance than the Galaxy class.
So even being the Flagship does not mean having the best stuff
The Enterprise E was fully launched in 2372, the Prometheus on the other hand was still an experimental prototype in 2374.
Also wether or not the Ent D had been destroyed or not is irrelevant, as it was no longer by that time a brand new class and generation of ships.
Point is, in STO the Bortasqu and Odyssey as flagships are brand new classes of ships, launched in 2409.
The year is 2410, and the idea that such new and advanced ships should be second or third rate ships now is just ridiculous.
Especially when you take into account of the actual cost of the packs required to fully kit out each flagship.
There is most certainly canon precedent for the Flagship of the Fleet to NOT be the top of the line. Generally speaking, the flagship is top of the line at the time they are designated the Flagship. It's an honorary title more than anything, and that title doesn't transfer to another ship until the existing ship is destroyed or retired, in which then the flagship would be upgraded to the newest, latest, most advanced ship.
When the Big-D was the flagship, at least two other ships in the fleet were more advanced, possibly 3. The Defiant and Intrepid Classes were technologically speaking far superior to the Galaxy, yet they didn't suddenly replace the Enterprise-D with an Intrepid class. Additionally, the Prometheus and Nova classes were in development, or under construction at the time the Big-E was flagship, and again, they didn't simply replace the Big-E on account of it no longer being "top of the line."
I do however think that when the Odyssey was launched, along with the Avenger, these were considered "pinnacle" ships in terms of their tech, and suddenly a year later we have 3 new ships that are completely and radically different than the supposed most advanced ships in Starfleet? Since those T6 ships were clearly in design or production at the time the Odyssey and Avengers were being produced, it makes no sense that the design has departed so radically from what we know of ship production in the 2409-2410 era.
It's obvious Cryptic's artists don't have a firm grasp on design and engineering concepts.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
I take it we are talking about Flagship as in a singular ship which represents a particular faction as opposed to a flagship of an individual fleet or battle group.
Flagship could mean many things. here is a real world example.
The flagship of the British Navy is still HMS Victory, Admiral Nelsons ship he used at the Battle of Trafalgar 200 years ago. It's in a naval dockyard in Portsmouth! She is the oldest commissioned Naval vessel in the world she is still considered a front line vessel.
Obviously it's symbolic a sailing ship would be useless in a modern war. That's not the point, she is a symbol.
In All Good Things the Enterprise D is still in service as the personal flagship of Admiral Riker. Who's to say despite her age and massive refits she isn't still regarded as the federation flagship. the ship that represents all that's good and great about the Federation, she may not be top of the line but her history and achievements is what gives her the right to be called the flagship. (The flagship as opposed to a flagship.)
Monkey see, Monkey do. Monkey flings Feathered Monkey poo...
Tell you what: Have cryptic make a mission for each faction, where you destroy each of the individual two other factions Flagship, with their current code.
IF you can destroy them, theres a problem... If not... well... problem solved.
Don't look silly... Don't call it the "Z-Store/Zen Store"...
Comments
It's those ships that do absolutely nothing during every major battle we fight, but they manage to get all the glory and fame and the rewards instead of us.
-Leonard Nimoy, RIP
Obsolete to me means a ship that can't be used anymore...can I still use my T5 ships in the new expansion...yes...so they are not obsolete
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Except the Oddy was obsolete since well...since not long after it was launched...it's kinda a jack of all trades master of none.
Oh and before I forget...I'm amazed how you know every T5 U ship will be obsolete...how many devs are leaking you information about the T6 ships and their powers?
Just look at the pack information, and understand that the bonus boff slot they get is a commander level slot. Unless the Information Officer's powers are completely useless 4 extra boff powers are going to swing the power curve entirely to the T6 ships.
1 Console slot and 10% hull vs 4 more boff powers? yeah, you be the judge which will be more important.
Using the second doesn't really help here either..... just means the "Flagships" are not longer "flaghips".... But as "Flagships" don't by definition need to be "flagships", it still doesn't matter.
Per the devs
"I'm not sure where this misconception came from.
T6 ships have ONE additional Boff ability. Not 4, and not 5-7.
In other words, an existing T5 ship has 12. These will have 13. Not 16+ like you're implying."
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Are they adding an entire additional commander slot? I was under the impression that a lt cmdr slot was just becoming a cmdr slot, as compared to a T5U. So just one more commander level power. Is this confirmed somewhere?
it could be a commander level BOFF seat...but it's not in addition to.
example on my Tac Oddy I have
LT Tac
CDR ENG
LT SCI
LCDR UNI
ENS UNI
on a T6 ship the layout could be
LT Tac
CDR ENG
LT SCI
CDR INTELL
ENS UNI
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
but you would be giving up a boff slot....look at your ship and decide which of those slots would you give up Tac, Sci, Eng or Uni for a CDR intelligence officer?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Just a thought, but what if the commander level intelligence seat is the only commander seat on these ships, and they gain their extra power in a different seat?
Then maybe they can explain why on Tribble right now your Information Officer has skills that can be placed in space slots from Ensign to Commander. All 4 slots. If they can only be placed in a Commander level spot, there's no need for Ensign to Lt. Commander space skills.
The only Logical answer I can guess at is that you can put them in Universal slots, but that then completely destroys the "Only Information Ships can have Information Officers" line they're trying to hook people with.
They are likely replacing a lt cmdr tac, sci, eng, or uni seat with a commander intelligence seat. 4 intelligence power slots at the expense of three others.
You will have a commander intelligence officer but it is not an additional seat. Of the five seats we all have one will be a commander intell seat.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Federation Flagship: The pride of the Federation, where ship and crew is the best there is. This is where the Enterprise and her crew usually fell into.
Fleet Flagship: Where an Admiral or someone who is in charge of a fleet. Most during fleet maneuvers and combat.
To me I'm in a Flagship of the Fleet.
USS Casinghead NCC 92047 launched 2350
Fleet Admiral Stowe - Dominion War Vet.
This seems the most obvious conclusion to me.
Flagship can mean "Ship the admiral of a taskforce is currently on". He's the flag officer, this is his ship. It is not necessarily the most powerful ship in the task force (though it often is), but rather the one the admiral feels is best suited to coordinating and commanding his group of ships. He may not even do this from the flagship's command deck, preferring to use more advanced CnC facilities located elsewhere.
Flagship can also mean, in a more colloquial sense, "Exemplary" or "Emblematic". A highly advanced and secretive recon ship crewed by spies and assassins isn't going to be the exemplar of the Starfleet ideal. Neither, necessarily, is a dedicated warship crewed by a hard-TRIBBLE military commander. The Enterprise remained very much an emblem of the Starfleet ideal , not because of it's capacity for violence or technological advancement, but because of the exploits of her captain and crew.
So...what is all the malarky about the current faction flagships not being good enough because they don't bring the most DPS?
Not just impossible but actual cannon that they didn't.
a lot of this upgrade stuff has now confused me so do tier 6 ships get a extra commander bo slot or does say a lt com slot become a com slot?
some clearance on this is clearly needed.
"It appears we have lost our sex appeal, captain."- Tuvok
The T6 ships will have one more boff slot than the T5U....so yes it's like a LCDR uni becoming CDR.
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
How do you know that there weren't newer ships being designed within the same year as Ent E or Ent D?
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Also if the Enterprise D was not destroyed then the U.S.S Sovereign would have been more advance than the Galaxy class.
So even being the Flagship does not mean having the best stuff
Yup... Ronald Moore said the ship that would become Ent E was finished being built during the last season of TNG
Let us explore it... together. Each man hides a secret pain. It must be exposed and reckoned with. It must be dragged from the darkness and forced into the light. Share your pain. Share your pain with me... and gain strength from the sharing.
Except you think they're stupid enough to add a whole commander slot a.k.a. 4 powers? Besides they already said T6 will have one extra boff power not 4...just like with this bug ship will be T6 thing...people are reading it and thinking the absolute worst...people really need to learn how to read and interpret better.
Sure it will have 2 Cmdrs which is powerful...but we don't know how far these intelligence powers will go...but we do know adding a console slot can be very powerful to any ship...especially if it's a tac slot.
Plus we still don't know the stats on these ships...you don't know their hull strength, shield mod, turn rate, console numbers, or general boff seating.
The Enterprise E was fully launched in 2372, the Prometheus on the other hand was still an experimental prototype in 2374.
Also wether or not the Ent D had been destroyed or not is irrelevant, as it was no longer by that time a brand new class and generation of ships.
Point is, in STO the Bortasqu and Odyssey as flagships are brand new classes of ships, launched in 2409.
The year is 2410, and the idea that such new and advanced ships should be second or third rate ships now is just ridiculous.
Especially when you take into account of the actual cost of the packs required to fully kit out each flagship.
There is most certainly canon precedent for the Flagship of the Fleet to NOT be the top of the line. Generally speaking, the flagship is top of the line at the time they are designated the Flagship. It's an honorary title more than anything, and that title doesn't transfer to another ship until the existing ship is destroyed or retired, in which then the flagship would be upgraded to the newest, latest, most advanced ship.
When the Big-D was the flagship, at least two other ships in the fleet were more advanced, possibly 3. The Defiant and Intrepid Classes were technologically speaking far superior to the Galaxy, yet they didn't suddenly replace the Enterprise-D with an Intrepid class. Additionally, the Prometheus and Nova classes were in development, or under construction at the time the Big-E was flagship, and again, they didn't simply replace the Big-E on account of it no longer being "top of the line."
I do however think that when the Odyssey was launched, along with the Avenger, these were considered "pinnacle" ships in terms of their tech, and suddenly a year later we have 3 new ships that are completely and radically different than the supposed most advanced ships in Starfleet? Since those T6 ships were clearly in design or production at the time the Odyssey and Avengers were being produced, it makes no sense that the design has departed so radically from what we know of ship production in the 2409-2410 era.
It's obvious Cryptic's artists don't have a firm grasp on design and engineering concepts.
"You shoot him, I shoot you, I leave both your bodies here and go out for a late night snack.
I'm thinking maybe pancakes." ~ John Casey
Flagship could mean many things. here is a real world example.
The flagship of the British Navy is still HMS Victory, Admiral Nelsons ship he used at the Battle of Trafalgar 200 years ago. It's in a naval dockyard in Portsmouth! She is the oldest commissioned Naval vessel in the world she is still considered a front line vessel.
Obviously it's symbolic a sailing ship would be useless in a modern war. That's not the point, she is a symbol.
In All Good Things the Enterprise D is still in service as the personal flagship of Admiral Riker. Who's to say despite her age and massive refits she isn't still regarded as the federation flagship. the ship that represents all that's good and great about the Federation, she may not be top of the line but her history and achievements is what gives her the right to be called the flagship. (The flagship as opposed to a flagship.)
IF you can destroy them, theres a problem... If not... well... problem solved.