test content
What is the Arc Client?
Install Arc

Torpedoes GCD

2»

Comments

  • smooshy#7462 smooshy Member Posts: 210 Arc User
    lordsteve1 wrote: »
    To anyone in this thread suggesting torpedoes should have magazine sizes or be finite......May the fleas of a thousand camels infest you armpits.

    For the love of god don't give them any more bad ideas.

    Agreed. Starships are provisioned for long tours away from home, and we're transwarping back to ESD daily. Any limitations on torpedo stocks (finite by necessity) would be realistically irrelevant. Voyager never ran out, although admittedly they were often worried about it.
  • shadowfang240shadowfang240 Member Posts: 28,598 Arc User
    let's not drag voyager into this...they push the envelope for utter BS even as far as star trek is concerned - if the torpedoes TRULY could not be replaced and with the way they spammed torpedoes, they should've ran out some time around the middle of S3...which is why most people think they did replace them between episodes, because any other conclusion would cause brain liquefaction from the sheer idiocy​​
    Get the Forums Enhancement Extension!

    "It's nothing personal, I just don't feel like I've gotten to know a person until I've sniffed their crotch."

    How Game Devs SHOULD be interacted with:
    http://askagamedev.tumblr.com/post/157238832062/i-remember-your-52080-rule-and-it-was-an-awesome

    "Curiosity is bad! It gets you in trouble, it gets you killed...and more importantly, it makes you poor!"

    "Beware of dog. Or possibly, enhanced, psycho-addicted, cybernetically-enhanced nightstalker death-dealing dog from hell."
    Passion and Serenity are one.
    I gain power by understanding both.
    In the chaos of their battle, I bring order.
    I am a shadow, darkness born from light.
    The Force is united within me.

    Stand with Star Trek: The Animated Series content for STO! #TASforSTO
  • sersi2sersi2 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    Great feedback, but just to make it clear, I was talking about the shared cooldown. That firing 1 torp prevents other tube from firing.

    Always thought of it like a submarine, if both tubes are loaded they would fire at the same time then the individual CD would kick in, say 6 secs for the first tube and 15 secs for the other. I'd say balance the individual CD once we get rid of the shared CD...

    And about the torpedo supply, while it would be more realistic, shall we also we also supply anti-matter for the engine and food for the crew? I think we have to sacrifice a little bit of realism for the sake of gameplay convenience.

    You guys are great!
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    sersi2 wrote: »
    Great feedback, but just to make it clear, I was talking about the shared cooldown. That firing 1 torp prevents other tube from firing.

    Always thought of it like a submarine, if both tubes are loaded they would fire at the same time then the individual CD would kick in, say 6 secs for the first tube and 15 secs for the other. I'd say balance the individual CD once we get rid of the shared CD...

    And about the torpedo supply, while it would be more realistic, shall we also we also supply anti-matter for the engine and food for the crew? I think we have to sacrifice a little bit of realism for the sake of gameplay convenience.

    You guys are great!
    It sounds to me like you are missing the reload cooldown which I get the impression most people are unware off. There is the individual torpedo CD, reload CD and global CD. Even if you get rid of the global CD the reload CD will stop none stop firing.

  • husanakxhusanakx Member Posts: 688 Arc User
    Sometimes a game has to be a game first. Removing the global would be a balance nightmare unless they also removed cool down doffs or something... and what would be the point of that. If you could blap 5 torps at once and then just wait 6 seconds and do it all over again it would be both boring, stupid... and the new meta. Stepping outside of "this is a game and needs to have game rules" mode. I can't say I ever remember in any of the shows... any hero ship or otherwise fire off 50 torps at once, it was always a constant steady stream of pew pew pew.

    As it is we have doffs that make so 2-3 well chosen torps can basically fire none stop every 0.5s. (That is the global with the Terren rep console) You can also super cool cool downs on long cool down high impact weapons like temporal devices / breen clusters ect.

    We have enough traits and sets now that allow torps to penetrate more then enough shield to make full torp setups compete very well with energy weapons. (and things get even better when you consider the advatnages of running 100 aux power for EPG synergy)

    Yes at the tippy top of the meta if you fully dial in an uber gear energy weapon setup it will parse higher DPS. (of course you also have to consider scatter and faw racking up DPS on targets taking zero dmg) However a fully kitted torp boat does do 3x more DPS then required by the content.

    Torpedoes are in a good place right now. They are not Uber, They are not Required. They are also not useless... there are plenty of viable builds using mixtures and 100% kinetic as well. Even mines have gotten some love recently.

    My favorite builds at the moment are high EPG builds with full kinetic. Even mines.... of course mines are slow and not going to be the top of any parse. Having said that my full EPG / mine torp setups can pug randoms all day long and never worry about loosing optionals or being annoyed, as they can solo most maps if need be.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    husanakx wrote: »
    Sometimes a game has to be a game first. Removing the global would be a balance nightmare unless they also removed cool down doffs or something... and what would be the point of that. If you could blap 5 torps at once and then just wait 6 seconds and do it all over again it would be both boring, stupid... and the new meta. Stepping outside of "this is a game and needs to have game rules" mode. I can't say I ever remember in any of the shows... any hero ship or otherwise fire off 50 torps at once, it was always a constant steady stream of pew pew pew.

    As it is we have doffs that make so 2-3 well chosen torps can basically fire none stop every 0.5s. (That is the global with the Terren rep console) You can also super cool cool downs on long cool down high impact weapons like temporal devices / breen clusters ect.

    We have enough traits and sets now that allow torps to penetrate more then enough shield to make full torp setups compete very well with energy weapons. (and things get even better when you consider the advatnages of running 100 aux power for EPG synergy)

    Yes at the tippy top of the meta if you fully dial in an uber gear energy weapon setup it will parse higher DPS. (of course you also have to consider scatter and faw racking up DPS on targets taking zero dmg) However a fully kitted torp boat does do 3x more DPS then required by the content.

    Torpedoes are in a good place right now. They are not Uber, They are not Required. They are also not useless... there are plenty of viable builds using mixtures and 100% kinetic as well. Even mines have gotten some love recently.

    My favorite builds at the moment are high EPG builds with full kinetic. Even mines.... of course mines are slow and not going to be the top of any parse. Having said that my full EPG / mine torp setups can pug randoms all day long and never worry about loosing optionals or being annoyed, as they can solo most maps if need be.
    While I do agree torpedoes are in a good place, I disagree about the problems with removing GCD. I had/have access to 5 torpedoes without global cooldown and last time I tried it they were not overpowered or boring in fact it was more fun. (*) Just like the days when we could do x2 spreads within 2 seconds that was more fun then what we have now as it was more like what they did in the shows. The way I see it GCD is a legacy limitation that serves no real purpose.

    The high impact weapons like the clusters have a 15 second hard cap. You could get rid of or reduce GCD but leave the clusters and others alone or reduce them a little but not remove the cap.

    Saying that torpedoes are fine really, I would rather see further development with mines which had been improved a lot recently but are still the least developed of all the weapons systems. A real mine based ship(s) would be great as well. When I say that someone always mentioned the Ytijara but I see that as barely average with mines. While the faster moving mines are nice It puts out fewer mines and the mines do less damage per mine then other ships and it has no access to the top level mine powers which all combined make it a barely average mine layer.

    (*) I say had/have as I haven’t tried it recently. Once upon a time you could get multiple copies of the CE torpedo and it had last time I used it zero global cooldown and you can fit 5 in the front slots. There is also the Omega torpedo which last time I used it had zero GCD and as a bonus in spread 3, shoots 50 torpedoes off instead of the normal 25. Although you can no longer get multiple copies if you do still have them you can build a zero GDC torpedo boat. Assuming no GCD has been added recently.

  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    It has been 3 years since I have played (until about a week ago). I have gotten back into playing the STFs (don't remember what the developers want them called now) on my older characters. They are all level 50+. I can see why some say that torps would be OP if the GCD was removed. They can be very powerful. However, one thing that I see has not changed is that the enemies shields greatly nerf them. That helps balance them out. But I think that having a higher cool down because you have two or more of the same torp, than just having separate torps, makes no sense to me.

    And I am not going to compare the show, or real life with the game. The reason is because games can't be based 100% on either. 100% real life doesn't translate into a game very well. How many of us would really want to have to wait on our characters to take RL time to eat? Or how many of us want to have to stop what we are doing every once in a while to take our Admiral to the bathroom?

    With the TV shows and movies, all eras of the Star Trek franchise took liberties with the way the show dealt with certain things. One example that I always thought was funny was comparing Voyager with Star Trek movies. In the movies, they obtained warp 10 in a Klingon BoP, and also had transwarp drive. However, to tell the story of Voyager, none of those things existed in the Federation. And there are many other discrepancies between just from one series to another, and from one movie to another.

    The writers had to come up with catchy stories, and they did what they could to do that. And while some things didn't match up with what was in another series, the did have some really good and bad stories in each era.

    Back to the issue in this thread, I would like to be able to have a torp boat that has all torps on the front, and 360 beams on the back. I do think that it would be cool to do that, and not have a GCD. But, if I do that, I also think that there should be a trade off. The base cool down on torps should be increased based off of how many torps you have equipped. In addition to that, I think that the damage that shields block should be increased based off of how many you have equipped.

    This will do a few things. First, it will mean that you can't just keep spamming torps constantly, while someone else strips shields. That is over kill. Also, it will mean that if you do fire off a ton of torps, if they even have a sliver of shields, you do hardly any damage at all. In my personal opinion, this will help to balance out not having a GCD.

    I started a new character yesterday. My tactical Boff had Torp HY I. Even when the shields were slightly up, it still toasted about anything. But, if I fired off a single torp, it did very little to the hull. I either needed HY I to be used, or I needed to do most beating with my energy weapons. If I could have had 2 torps without a GCD, then I could have used a shield drain ability, and popped them with a few torps. But that shield drain ability has a decently long cool down. So that wouldn't happen often.

    At end game content, torp boats do get kills, but to be honest, they are mostly finishing kills. When not buffed by Boff skills, torps are not OP. They do spike damage, with a decent base cool down trade off. Removing the GCD wouldn't make them OP. And if the developers want to see either way, all they have to do is try it out on the test server. Make it open to everyone to test out, and see how it plays out. I may be wrong, and the GCD is the only way to keep them balanced. But I don't believe so.

    And yes, mines need a lot more love. I don't even bother with them at all. I have tried them recently. Still disappointed in them.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,674 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip

    Well first off, warp scale was different back in TOS...warp ten wasn't the "OMG everywhere at once warp" it was in Voyager. I mean heck speeds of up to warp 36 were mentioned in TAS.

    There was what Starfleet called Tanswarp drive...but the technology was abandoned because the dilithium Starfleet ships used couldn't handle the stress. The Voth and the Borg are the only ones I can think of who successfully used Transwarp Drive.

    But back on topic...the only thing really canon about torps in sto is that they don't fire all willy nilly at once...firing multiple torps at once would be a impossibility on some ships...and it would look rather silly in animation. If they made the change then PWO doffs would need to be altered...

    There are plenty of ways Torps can be buffed without having to remove the GCD (And easier ways) but it's a matter of getting them actually worked on since all anyone cares about is energy weapons and some of the DPS'er would probably throw a fit if build was suddenly less effective (A.K.A. the last revamp).

    Mines are a whole other can of worms, they're so ineffective in today's power creep it isn't funny...even if dropped flawlessly they could be a wasted weapon slot as everything will be dead by the time they arm and travel. At the very least they need to arm and travel faster.

  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    lianthelia wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip
    Mines are a whole other can of worms, they're so ineffective in today's power creep it isn't funny...even if dropped flawlessly they could be a wasted weapon slot as everything will be dead by the time they arm and travel. At the very least they need to arm and travel faster.
    That’s not correct anymore about them being ineffective. Mines had a major boost not long back and are now not only effective but at times the highest spike DPS weapon in game for some content. They are not going break any DPS records but used correctly they can be powerful. No other weapon can do as much spike damage as well placed mines.

    The whole everything is dead by the time they travel isn’t really a problem most of the time. I use mines as my primary weapon and do not have problems hitting targets and it rarely matters if the primary target dies before the mines hits, I lose no damage from that most of the time. In fact I can at times kill entire spawns faster then I could as a torpedo boat. Not as sustained DPS but as spike DPS.


  • tmassxtmassx Member Posts: 712 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    And would not you want to increase range of torpedoes? In TV we saw that range is at least one light second (but logically it must be more if full impulse is 1/4 of light speed). My opinion is that torps are very good now (and even a mines).

    logo_seperate21.png

  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    And would not you want to increase range of torpedoes? In TV we saw that range is at least one light second (but logically it must be more if full impulse is 1/4 of light speed). My opinion is that torps are very good now (and even a mines).

    That would be great but will be extremely unlikely to happen as its a much bigger job then it sounds. While there are a few exceptions the game is built around a sub 10km range and long range weapons break and/or unbalance a ton of stuff. Just about every mission would have to be rewritten and/or rebalanced to some degree.
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 2,869 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    tmassx wrote: »
    And would not you want to increase range of torpedoes? In TV we saw that range is at least one light second (but logically it must be more if full impulse is 1/4 of light speed). My opinion is that torps are very good now (and even a mines).

    That would be great but will be extremely unlikely to happen as its a much bigger job then it sounds. While there are a few exceptions the game is built around a sub 10km range and long range weapons break and/or unbalance a ton of stuff. Just about every mission would have to be rewritten and/or rebalanced to some degree.

    He has a point though. As far as ranges go, in-game they are utterly wrong. Torps should have the longest range, followed by Beams then Cannons. The balance would be maintained, with the addition of increased damage for cannons at close range, which is in line with the actual Physics with regards to energy.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    tmassx wrote: »
    And would not you want to increase range of torpedoes? In TV we saw that range is at least one light second (but logically it must be more if full impulse is 1/4 of light speed). My opinion is that torps are very good now (and even a mines).

    That would be great but will be extremely unlikely to happen as its a much bigger job then it sounds. While there are a few exceptions the game is built around a sub 10km range and long range weapons break and/or unbalance a ton of stuff. Just about every mission would have to be rewritten and/or rebalanced to some degree.

    He has a point though. As far as ranges go, in-game they are utterly wrong. Torps should have the longest range, followed by Beams then Cannons. The balance would be maintained, with the addition of increased damage for cannons at close range, which is in line with the actual Physics with regards to energy.

    I fully agree the ranges are utterly wrong and badly thought out but its not just a problem of balance between beams, cannons and torpedo's. For example longer range can break or cause problems in many missions. Then there is a problem where instead of fighting one group you tag all the other groups at long range and end up fighting extra groups.

    In theory with long enough range you could just sit at the start point in ISA and hit the entire map. From a technical point of view it can all be done . The problem is the shear volume of things that would need to be changed to make long range work.

    I would love to see weapons with different ranges but it is very unlikely to happen due to dev time investment needed
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,674 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip
    Mines are a whole other can of worms, they're so ineffective in today's power creep it isn't funny...even if dropped flawlessly they could be a wasted weapon slot as everything will be dead by the time they arm and travel. At the very least they need to arm and travel faster.
    That’s not correct anymore about them being ineffective. Mines had a major boost not long back and are now not only effective but at times the highest spike DPS weapon in game for some content. They are not going break any DPS records but used correctly they can be powerful. No other weapon can do as much spike damage as well placed mines.

    The whole everything is dead by the time they travel isn’t really a problem most of the time. I use mines as my primary weapon and do not have problems hitting targets and it rarely matters if the primary target dies before the mines hits, I lose no damage from that most of the time. In fact I can at times kill entire spawns faster then I could as a torpedo boat. Not as sustained DPS but as spike DPS.


    Yeah doesn't matter...doesn't matter as long as you're on a pug with low DPS...team with one person that can do great DPS and they become almost useless. Spike DPS often means little in anything except PvP...and PvP is pretty much dead and anyone who knows how to PvP is gonna get out of Dodge before those mines arm and hit. There is very little "OMG KILL THEM NOW" stuff in STO...and the stuff that is like this is rather fragile.

    Fact of the matter is people can kill cubes (Or almost anything in the game that isn't a boss) in just a few seconds or less...mines take several seconds to arm and then even more to slowly travel to their target, someone sneezes on them and they're destroyed, and they have a long cooldown...maybe you can get some decent burst out of them who knows, still the negatives outweigh the positives.

  • dracounguisdracounguis Member Posts: 5,363 Arc User
    sersi2 wrote: »
    Guess it's time for the yearly reminder to the DEVs to remove the shared GCD on torpedoes... It still makes no sense to me =)

    Happy holidays!

    Torps are so underused in this game due to how tac consoles work that torps NEED something to make them competitive. If you could put 2-3 on and launch them all at the optimal moment it would make them much more useful. They'd still have their own launcher CD so its not like there'd be a storm of non-stop torps.
    Sometimes I think I play STO just to have something to complain about on the forums.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    lianthelia wrote: »
    [ “Fact of the matter is people can kill cubes (Or almost anything in the game that isn't a boss) in just a few seconds or less...mines take several seconds to arm and then even more to slowly travel to their target, someone sneezes on them and they're destroyed, and they have a long cooldown...maybe you can get some decent burst out of them who knows, still the negatives outweigh the positives.”
    What you are saying about mines was true before the revamp but none of it is correct anymore. Mines got revamped and boosted a few months ago. If the target like the first cube dies the mine damage is not wasted. The mines will just redirect to the next target.

    As for the other problems you can get around all that. Not only can you fit fast rapid arming mines, my mines have two travel speed boosts, resistance boost, hitpoint boost so they don’t die in a quick sneeze and they don’t have problem hitting targets. When they do hit due to the explosion radius boost the damage multiples up. 1 mine can hit 6+ ships at once meaning an x6+ increase in DPS. It’s all about that large explosion radius boost.

    As for long cooldown no they do not since the revamp. I am dropping something like around 7 to 10 mines per second every second. I am dropping mines off over x4 faster then I can fire torpedoes. So not only is my spike DPS higher then what beams, cannons or torpedoes can do but my sustained DPS is pretty decent as well.


    lianthelia wrote: »
    [ “Yeah doesn't matter...doesn't matter as long as you're on a pug with low DPS...team with one person that can do great DPS and they become almost useless.”
    That’s not true with mines you can kill the entire wave of ships that warp in before the cannon or beam even gets chance to fire and hit the target. That’s what I do in the Swarm and more recently the The Battle at the Binary Stars. I pick up the rescue pods while dropping a mine field at the spawn point. As soon as the large wave of enemy ships warp in they instantly all die making any nearby high DPS cannons or beams useless. Same for the Swarm I park at the end of the lane where the large wave of ships warp in. They instantly die making high DPS cannons and beams do nothing.

    With mines I can kill waves of 6 to 10 ships coming in far faster then what can be done with high DPS beams or cannons. So I do not understand how you can say mines are ineffective. Mines are so effective after the boost that I have dropped my torpedo boat and swapped to a full mine layer boat.
    Post edited by pottsey5g on
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,093 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    I presume what the original poster was requesting the removal of the cooldown that prevents you from firing multiple torpedos/mines at the same time - whereas you can fire any number of energy weapons simultaneously. I'm not really sure the game needs more spike damage at the moment(especially if NPC ships can benefit from it), but I can understand the desired removal of an.. arbitrarily discriminatory.. game mechanic

    As for the topic of where torpedo weapons currently stand. I think the common misconception is that people want weapon type B to perform like weapon type A, when they've clearly specialized their ship for weapon type A while ignoring weapon type B enhancements. That is to say, if you fill your tactical slots with energy damage type consoles, it shouldn't be surprising that kinetic damage type weapons fall behind. Conversely, if you actually slot kinetic damage tac consoles, you can do some pretty disgusting damage with their associated weapons. When properly built for it, the Omega Plasma Bolt(borg HY torp) is still probably the single most destructive weapon in the game(both in terms of the upfront damage and, especially, the massive scaling burn damage that follows as a result).

    Truth be told, the 'solution' that I've wanted for a long time is for the removal of console stat stacking. This would lead to tactical console heavy ships being more about enhancing a diverse weapon loadout(running both energy weapons AND kinetics) instead of super-specializing into one or the other. Ships with 'limited tactical capabilities' would thus want to focus on one weapon archetype, while the tactical heavy ships would be proficient in all types of weapons(which they also have the tactical bridge seating to accommodate it). The same would apply for Engineering and Science-themed ship; science ships are loaded with a 'variety' of labs, so it would make sense that they're able to fulfill a wider variety of 'sciency' roles, etc. Furthermore, a Cruiser wouldn't magically have inferior beam damage output compared to an escort(despite probably being armed with a better power generation/distribution system), it just wouldn't have the same weapon/tactical flexibility as a dedicated warship. Maybe it's just me, but the change would just make a lot more sense for the overall thematic, gameplay and mechanical design.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 32,773 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip
    Mines are a whole other can of worms, they're so ineffective in today's power creep it isn't funny...even if dropped flawlessly they could be a wasted weapon slot as everything will be dead by the time they arm and travel. At the very least they need to arm and travel faster.
    That’s not correct anymore about them being ineffective. Mines had a major boost not long back and are now not only effective but at times the highest spike DPS weapon in game for some content. They are not going break any DPS records but used correctly they can be powerful. No other weapon can do as much spike damage as well placed mines.

    The whole everything is dead by the time they travel isn’t really a problem most of the time. I use mines as my primary weapon and do not have problems hitting targets and it rarely matters if the primary target dies before the mines hits, I lose no damage from that most of the time. In fact I can at times kill entire spawns faster then I could as a torpedo boat. Not as sustained DPS but as spike DPS.
    How you use mines is very different between an actual mine and a cluster torpedo. For real mines you drop them where you're expecting enemies to spawn. then KABLOOEY! no more enemy things.

    Clusters you have to fire at an target. And the cluster torp is destructible, etc... It has the advantage of not taking a Boff skill slot, but it has other disadvantages. Also, all clusters simulate DPB, not DPA, DPA can be useful in maps where you have reason to want the mines to be spread a little bit. For example in Defense of Starbase One, you can use DPA to leave a string of mines along the flight path of an escaping ship.
    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
    My character Tsin'xing
    Costume_marhawkman_Tsin%27xing_CC_Comic_Page_Blue_488916968.jpg
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    szerontzur wrote: »
    I presume what the original poster was requesting the removal of the cooldown that prevents you from firing multiple torpedos/mines at the same time - whereas you can fire any number of energy weapons simultaneously. I'm not really sure the game needs more spike damage at the moment(especially if NPC ships can benefit from it), but I can understand the desired removal of an.. arbitrarily discriminatory.. game mechanic

    As for the topic of where torpedo weapons currently stand. I think the common misconception is that people want weapon type B to perform like weapon type A, when they've clearly specialized their ship for weapon type A while ignoring weapon type B enhancements. That is to say, if you fill your tactical slots with energy damage type consoles, it shouldn't be surprising that kinetic damage type weapons fall behind. Conversely, if you actually slot kinetic damage tac consoles, you can do some pretty disgusting damage with their associated weapons. When properly built for it, the Omega Plasma Bolt(borg HY torp) is still probably the single most destructive weapon in the game(both in terms of the upfront damage and, especially, the massive scaling burn damage that follows as a result).

    Truth be told, the 'solution' that I've wanted for a long time is for the removal of console stat stacking. This would lead to tactical console heavy ships being more about enhancing a diverse weapon loadout(running both energy weapons AND kinetics) instead of super-specializing into one or the other. Ships with 'limited tactical capabilities' would thus want to focus on one weapon archetype, while the tactical heavy ships would be proficient in all types of weapons(which they also have the tactical bridge seating to accommodate it). The same would apply for Engineering and Science-themed ship; science ships are loaded with a 'variety' of labs, so it would make sense that they're able to fulfill a wider variety of 'sciency' roles, etc. Furthermore, a Cruiser wouldn't magically have inferior beam damage output compared to an escort(despite probably being armed with a better power generation/distribution system), it just wouldn't have the same weapon/tactical flexibility as a dedicated warship. Maybe it's just me, but the change would just make a lot more sense for the overall thematic, gameplay and mechanical design.


    I do like your idea about not stacking tac consoles. However, it is too late in the game for that. The developers have been selling power creep for so long, that it's all the game is about. In fact, when they first increased the level cap from 50-60, they proved that they want players to use the new power creep. They increased the shield and hull HP pools of all enemies, instead of actually making them harder to beat by making them smarter. If they were to stop tac consoles from stacking, then they would have to undo a lot of that work. But, if they do that, then it will be harder to sell power creep. Not to mention all the players that have invested into fleet gear, including tac consoles. They are not cheap.

    If they were to come out with a new STO game, and fix all the mistakes they made with this one, then I would love to see that. It would help add more diversity to ships. And I love that.

    Torps can be powerful now. But, I have found that even with a skill tree that supports torps on a Tactical character, they are just not worth me putting more than 1 on my escorts. And I don't always like putting them on much anything else, unless I have DBB up front. Mainly due to slow turn rates.

    I would still like to see the developers make the change to torp GCD on the test server, just to test it and see if it will be game breaking like some suggest, or just more beneficial. I am leaning towards just being more beneficial. It couldn't hurt to test it out and see what the results will be.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    tmassx wrote: »
    And would not you want to increase range of torpedoes? In TV we saw that range is at least one light second (but logically it must be more if full impulse is 1/4 of light speed). My opinion is that torps are very good now (and even a mines).


    It would make sense, if they game mechanics were 100% like the series, or movies. However, we need to remember that shields drastically reduce the effects of torps. So, being able to fire them at long ranges that energy weapons can't reach is pointless. Unless you just use it to aggro enemies further away, to draw them to you, so they come within your energy weapons range.

    The only exception to that, would be if you want to snipe ships that others have dropped shields on. But, you still run the risk that their shields go up before they get there. Even in 5km, that is a risk. And, while everyone else is tearing down shields, you are not doing much DPS to help them in the process. You are more beneficial getting within 10km, and using energy weapons with your torps together.

    Don't get me wrong, it is a good idea. But the game mechanics just don't support it.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip
    Mines are a whole other can of worms, they're so ineffective in today's power creep it isn't funny...even if dropped flawlessly they could be a wasted weapon slot as everything will be dead by the time they arm and travel. At the very least they need to arm and travel faster.
    That’s not correct anymore about them being ineffective. Mines had a major boost not long back and are now not only effective but at times the highest spike DPS weapon in game for some content. They are not going break any DPS records but used correctly they can be powerful. No other weapon can do as much spike damage as well placed mines.

    The whole everything is dead by the time they travel isn’t really a problem most of the time. I use mines as my primary weapon and do not have problems hitting targets and it rarely matters if the primary target dies before the mines hits, I lose no damage from that most of the time. In fact I can at times kill entire spawns faster then I could as a torpedo boat. Not as sustained DPS but as spike DPS.



    I would love to see your build, and how you use it. I am interested in using them on my Fleet Defiant. I was just thinking about them today. I have an extra Ensign Tac slot that shouldn't be there, and I have nothing to slot there. So I was thinking about moving a Torp skill down to there, and using a mine skill in a Lt slot. I would be more than happy for any suggestions you have.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • jtoney3448jtoney3448 Member Posts: 603 Arc User
    let's not drag voyager into this...they push the envelope for utter BS even as far as star trek is concerned - if the torpedoes TRULY could not be replaced and with the way they spammed torpedoes, they should've ran out some time around the middle of S3...which is why most people think they did replace them between episodes, because any other conclusion would cause brain liquefaction from the sheer idiocy​​

    They did replace them, they began making torpedos aboard voyager. In one of the episodes they talk about how they were going to make the casings for them, and all that is needed is basically antimatter and fuses. They specifically make anti undine torpedos using borg nanites that Seven provided.

    IF torpedos were finite aboard our ships ingame depending on your build you could run out in a single battle vs go a long time. Torp spamming builds would run through 200 torps fast.

    You have to remember the GCD is there for several reasons, the game doesnt seem to handle spam well at all, and weapon firing cycles conflict with one another. In addition with GCD its likely some weapons would never get a chance to fire at all. Then there is the visual item limit on levels, it is why in things like crystaline catastrophy you get a lot of weapon effects not showing up, the game simply hits an effect limit and can not render more then that at one time in an area to save server resources.

    While Id love to see torpedo limits on ships just from a 'it was in the show' perspective it just doesnt work in this game this isnt Bridge Commander. We fight far to many ships in some battles to make that work in STO.
  • pottsey5gpottsey5g Member Posts: 2,515 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    razar2380 wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip
    Mines are a whole other can of worms, they're so ineffective in today's power creep it isn't funny...even if dropped flawlessly they could be a wasted weapon slot as everything will be dead by the time they arm and travel. At the very least they need to arm and travel faster.
    That’s not correct anymore about them being ineffective. Mines had a major boost not long back and are now not only effective but at times the highest spike DPS weapon in game for some content. They are not going break any DPS records but used correctly they can be powerful. No other weapon can do as much spike damage as well placed mines.

    The whole everything is dead by the time they travel isn’t really a problem most of the time. I use mines as my primary weapon and do not have problems hitting targets and it rarely matters if the primary target dies before the mines hits, I lose no damage from that most of the time. In fact I can at times kill entire spawns faster then I could as a torpedo boat. Not as sustained DPS but as spike DPS.



    I would love to see your build, and how you use it. I am interested in using them on my Fleet Defiant. I was just thinking about them today. I have an extra Ensign Tac slot that shouldn't be there, and I have nothing to slot there. So I was thinking about moving a Torp skill down to there, and using a mine skill in a Lt slot. I would be more than happy for any suggestions you have.

    Razar.
    Two of the more popular ways to play them is to take double range tracking then fire and forget, just play normal although they synergize better on a torpedo boat then canon/beam boat. The other way to it work out spawn points, change your flight pattern so you can drop mines either where the ships warp in or along the path they will fly.

    For example in Azure Nebula Rescue go to each spawn point before they spawn. The enemy won’t stand a chance as they warp into a mine field leaving you free to rescue the ships fast.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1241632/minelayer-boat-guide
  • leemwatsonleemwatson Member Posts: 2,869 Arc User
    szerontzur wrote: »
    I presume what the original poster was requesting the removal of the cooldown that prevents you from firing multiple torpedos/mines at the same time - whereas you can fire any number of energy weapons simultaneously. I'm not really sure the game needs more spike damage at the moment(especially if NPC ships can benefit from it), but I can understand the desired removal of an.. arbitrarily discriminatory.. game mechanic

    As for the topic of where torpedo weapons currently stand. I think the common misconception is that people want weapon type B to perform like weapon type A, when they've clearly specialized their ship for weapon type A while ignoring weapon type B enhancements. That is to say, if you fill your tactical slots with energy damage type consoles, it shouldn't be surprising that kinetic damage type weapons fall behind. Conversely, if you actually slot kinetic damage tac consoles, you can do some pretty disgusting damage with their associated weapons. When properly built for it, the Omega Plasma Bolt(borg HY torp) is still probably the single most destructive weapon in the game(both in terms of the upfront damage and, especially, the massive scaling burn damage that follows as a result).

    Truth be told, the 'solution' that I've wanted for a long time is for the removal of console stat stacking. This would lead to tactical console heavy ships being more about enhancing a diverse weapon loadout(running both energy weapons AND kinetics) instead of super-specializing into one or the other. Ships with 'limited tactical capabilities' would thus want to focus on one weapon archetype, while the tactical heavy ships would be proficient in all types of weapons(which they also have the tactical bridge seating to accommodate it). The same would apply for Engineering and Science-themed ship; science ships are loaded with a 'variety' of labs, so it would make sense that they're able to fulfill a wider variety of 'sciency' roles, etc. Furthermore, a Cruiser wouldn't magically have inferior beam damage output compared to an escort(despite probably being armed with a better power generation/distribution system), it just wouldn't have the same weapon/tactical flexibility as a dedicated warship. Maybe it's just me, but the change would just make a lot more sense for the overall thematic, gameplay and mechanical design.

    Energy weapons do not fire simultaneously. They fire on a cycle. Removing GCD on torps would make Energy weapons virtually pointless. As it is, you only need the Quantum Phase Torp to take down shields, followed by a Neutronic Torp, and then Terran Task Force torp to do severe damage to any ship.

    What really should happen is Torps removed from standard weapon slots and reallocated as Heavy Weapons with their own firing cycle seperate from Energy Weapons, just like it should be, but as it is, Weapon's layout and arcs are none-sensical.
    "You don't want to patrol!? You don't want to escort!? You don't want to defend the Federation's Starbases!? Then why are you flying my Starships!? If you were a Klingon you'd be killed on the spot, but lucky for you.....you WERE in Starfleet. Let's see how New Zealand Penal Colony suits you." Adm A. Necheyev.
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    [/quote="pottsey5g;c-13454264"]Two of the more popular ways to play them is to take double range tracking then fire and forget, just play normal although they synergize better on a torpedo boat then canon/beam boat. The other way to it work out spawn points, change your flight pattern so you can drop mines either where the ships warp in or along the path they will fly.

    For example in Azure Nebula Rescue go to each spawn point before they spawn. The enemy won’t stand a chance as they warp into a mine field leaving you free to rescue the ships fast.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1241632/minelayer-boat-guide
    [/quote]


    I love how you have the information in that link clearly laid out, and explained why one thing will work better, while another will not. Thanks for that.

    I do have a little problem with it, when it comes to my play style. I am disabled, and due to the nature of my health condition, I cannot sit up higher than a reclined position. Therefore, I am not able to use a K/M to play. I am on a PC, but I have to use a Xbox 360 controller.

    The way I play is by using a macros. All of my tactical skills are on tray 1, and activate from left to right. Shield heals take up about the first 4 or 5 slots in tray 2, and hull heals take up 4 slots on tray 3. Each of those are also set to a single button for each tray. But, it doesn't activate all of my heals at once. It activates 1 heal per button press. Same for tactical skills. I have to spam the button to activate all of them.

    With your build, I don't think it will work with my play style, because I have to use macros. I have been running a DHC build, with a single torp on the front. That works out great with my play style, since the torp comes off cool down about the same time the next torp skill is ready.

    Another issue is that I can't get my DHCs to fire alone, like I can with beams. For dome reason, if I set a button to fire only phasers (meaning all beams, not the phaser energy type. That can get confusing), it will fire only phasers when they are equipped. But, if I try to use cannons, I need to set that button to fire ALL weapons. For some reason, the game doesn't see cannons are phasers (or energy weapons), and it doesn't see them are torps either. There is no setting to fire just cannons only. Therefore, if I run torps or mines, they will be linked to the cannons firing.

    So, I know that I can't do a build like yours, because I believe your build is more designed for selective firing of weapons and skills at specific times. Even if I did a torp/mine boat, I think that I will still have trouble with it. So, I have a question about running mines and torps on a cannon build. If I were to run cannons on the build with mines in the back, about how close will I need to be to the ship I am firing on, before the mines I launch behind me will target the ship in front?

    I try to get close to them anyways. But, if I am solo in a mission, I still want the mines to do something to help with DPS. If I am in an STF, there are usually others getting more aggro than me, because I have no space weapons yet that are above MK 12 very rare. (Just started back playing after about 3 years). I have the original 5 or 6 rep systems about Tier 4 or 5. So, I don't have access yet to any newer rep system stuff.

    I have considered using my ship to do strafing runs, and hope the mines drop behind me as I get close enough. But, that will still be a bit difficult. I hope that they fix the issue, so that I can set cannons to fire separate than torps and mines.

    Thanks again for any help. If I have more questions, would you mind if I pm you on the forums?

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    pottsey5g wrote: »
    lianthelia wrote: »
    razar2380 wrote: »
    snip
    Two of the more popular ways to play them is to take double range tracking then fire and forget, just play normal although they synergize better on a torpedo boat then canon/beam boat. The other way to it work out spawn points, change your flight pattern so you can drop mines either where the ships warp in or along the path they will fly.

    For example in Azure Nebula Rescue go to each spawn point before they spawn. The enemy won’t stand a chance as they warp into a mine field leaving you free to rescue the ships fast.

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/startrekonline#/discussion/1241632/minelayer-boat-guide


    I tried to write this before, but have had trouble with the forums. I am still not used to these newer ones. I haven't used them as much as the older ones from a few years ago.

    However, I have some issues with your build, that have to do with my play style, not the build itself. I was wondering if I could just pm you, and get your help with it?

    Thanks for all the help you have given. I love how you lay out your build. You explain why you went with something, and even took the time to explain why certain things work, and others don't. That was awesome.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • razar2380razar2380 Member Posts: 1,139 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    szerontzur wrote: »
    I presume what the original poster was requesting the removal of the cooldown that prevents you from firing multiple torpedos/mines at the same time - whereas you can fire any number of energy weapons simultaneously. I'm not really sure the game needs more spike damage at the moment(especially if NPC ships can benefit from it), but I can understand the desired removal of an.. arbitrarily discriminatory.. game mechanic

    As for the topic of where torpedo weapons currently stand. I think the common misconception is that people want weapon type B to perform like weapon type A, when they've clearly specialized their ship for weapon type A while ignoring weapon type B enhancements. That is to say, if you fill your tactical slots with energy damage type consoles, it shouldn't be surprising that kinetic damage type weapons fall behind. Conversely, if you actually slot kinetic damage tac consoles, you can do some pretty disgusting damage with their associated weapons. When properly built for it, the Omega Plasma Bolt(borg HY torp) is still probably the single most destructive weapon in the game(both in terms of the upfront damage and, especially, the massive scaling burn damage that follows as a result).

    Truth be told, the 'solution' that I've wanted for a long time is for the removal of console stat stacking. This would lead to tactical console heavy ships being more about enhancing a diverse weapon loadout(running both energy weapons AND kinetics) instead of super-specializing into one or the other. Ships with 'limited tactical capabilities' would thus want to focus on one weapon archetype, while the tactical heavy ships would be proficient in all types of weapons(which they also have the tactical bridge seating to accommodate it). The same would apply for Engineering and Science-themed ship; science ships are loaded with a 'variety' of labs, so it would make sense that they're able to fulfill a wider variety of 'sciency' roles, etc. Furthermore, a Cruiser wouldn't magically have inferior beam damage output compared to an escort(despite probably being armed with a better power generation/distribution system), it just wouldn't have the same weapon/tactical flexibility as a dedicated warship. Maybe it's just me, but the change would just make a lot more sense for the overall thematic, gameplay and mechanical design.

    Energy weapons do not fire simultaneously. They fire on a cycle. Removing GCD on torps would make Energy weapons virtually pointless. As it is, you only need the Quantum Phase Torp to take down shields, followed by a Neutronic Torp, and then Terran Task Force torp to do severe damage to any ship.

    What really should happen is Torps removed from standard weapon slots and reallocated as Heavy Weapons with their own firing cycle seperate from Energy Weapons, just like it should be, but as it is, Weapon's layout and arcs are none-sensical.


    I do like they idea of giving torps their own weapons slot. However, the problem is, if someone wants to go with a torp build, then there will need to buy a ship specific for torps. Like it is now, you can build each ship how how you like, with little restrictions.

    Razar.
    SSO = Starfleet (not so) Special Operations Group
  • szerontzurszerontzur Member Posts: 2,093 Arc User
    leemwatson wrote: »
    What really should happen is Torps removed from standard weapon slots and reallocated as Heavy Weapons with their own firing cycle seperate from Energy Weapons, just like it should be, but as it is, Weapon's layout and arcs are none-sensical.

    It's probably dangerous for me to even get started on that topic. I will say, the Starfleet Command series(which I suspect was a big inspiration for the original STO design) did arcs and weapon/subsystem hardpoints a lot better.

    I've often thought the distribution of arcs and weapon hardpoints would have been a great thing to better develop. Break weapon facings into 4 directions(fore, aft, port, starboard); cruisers would be armed with 2 energy weapons in each facing with one forward and aft heavy weapon mount; escorts would have 3 forward and 2 aft energy mounts with two heavy forward and aft heavy mounts; battlecrusiers would be 3fore with one energy weapon on each remaining facing; raiders would only have forward weapons; "battleships" would be the broadsiders with 1 fore/aft and 3 on each side; etc.

    I digress, I could go on for a lot longer and FAR greater detail, but it's a largely futile exercise at this point; way more work than they would ever seriously consider. Relatively speaking, I think the console change would be a much 'easier' change with more meaningful consequences. Not only would it shake up the meta, but it strip out a lot of the 'lemons' that exist in the game. Powercreep can/would still be supportable through various Cat2 set bonuses and future special(ized) versions of the existing consoles(special anti-borg tactical consoles, or more things along the lines of Dyson or Embassy consoles, as some examples).
  • lianthelialianthelia Member Posts: 6,674 Arc User
    edited December 2018
    razar2380 wrote: »
    leemwatson wrote: »
    szerontzur wrote: »
    I presume what the original poster was requesting the removal of the cooldown that prevents you from firing multiple torpedos/mines at the same time - whereas you can fire any number of energy weapons simultaneously. I'm not really sure the game needs more spike damage at the moment(especially if NPC ships can benefit from it), but I can understand the desired removal of an.. arbitrarily discriminatory.. game mechanic

    As for the topic of where torpedo weapons currently stand. I think the common misconception is that people want weapon type B to perform like weapon type A, when they've clearly specialized their ship for weapon type A while ignoring weapon type B enhancements. That is to say, if you fill your tactical slots with energy damage type consoles, it shouldn't be surprising that kinetic damage type weapons fall behind. Conversely, if you actually slot kinetic damage tac consoles, you can do some pretty disgusting damage with their associated weapons. When properly built for it, the Omega Plasma Bolt(borg HY torp) is still probably the single most destructive weapon in the game(both in terms of the upfront damage and, especially, the massive scaling burn damage that follows as a result).

    Truth be told, the 'solution' that I've wanted for a long time is for the removal of console stat stacking. This would lead to tactical console heavy ships being more about enhancing a diverse weapon loadout(running both energy weapons AND kinetics) instead of super-specializing into one or the other. Ships with 'limited tactical capabilities' would thus want to focus on one weapon archetype, while the tactical heavy ships would be proficient in all types of weapons(which they also have the tactical bridge seating to accommodate it). The same would apply for Engineering and Science-themed ship; science ships are loaded with a 'variety' of labs, so it would make sense that they're able to fulfill a wider variety of 'sciency' roles, etc. Furthermore, a Cruiser wouldn't magically have inferior beam damage output compared to an escort(despite probably being armed with a better power generation/distribution system), it just wouldn't have the same weapon/tactical flexibility as a dedicated warship. Maybe it's just me, but the change would just make a lot more sense for the overall thematic, gameplay and mechanical design.

    Energy weapons do not fire simultaneously. They fire on a cycle. Removing GCD on torps would make Energy weapons virtually pointless. As it is, you only need the Quantum Phase Torp to take down shields, followed by a Neutronic Torp, and then Terran Task Force torp to do severe damage to any ship.

    What really should happen is Torps removed from standard weapon slots and reallocated as Heavy Weapons with their own firing cycle seperate from Energy Weapons, just like it should be, but as it is, Weapon's layout and arcs are none-sensical.


    I do like they idea of giving torps their own weapons slot. However, the problem is, if someone wants to go with a torp build, then there will need to buy a ship specific for torps. Like it is now, you can build each ship how how you like, with little restrictions.

    Razar.

    I made a post a while back about something similar...I had a idea for a special torpedo slot...since a lot of ships (Or at least Starfleet ships) had both forward and rear firing torpedo tubes...this special slot would have a 90 degree front and 90 degree rear arc.

    Even ships that stack just energy weapons could have one torp...maybe if they were worried about it being too op, they could put restrictions on it...like maybe you can't equip rep, lobi, or energy torpedoes (So basically nothing but like the kind of torpedoes that you could buy on the exchange)...or perhaps not allowing it to be affected by special abilities.

    Could potentially make torpedo boats much stronger without giving a huge bonus to energy only ships...

2»
Sign In or Register to comment.